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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) 

 

draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/

 

Implementation status: 

 

This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and general
model.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in future ODL
implementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has
implementations of these topology models to provide details on list or
offlist to the chairs. 

 

Sue Hares  


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>This =
begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-yang-network-topo &#8211; modeling draft =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo=
/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology &#8211; L3 topology =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/=
">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/</a><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
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href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-t=
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-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Implementation status: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This an =
OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and general =
model.&nbsp; It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in =
future ODL implementations. &nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff and I would appreciate =
anyone who has implementations of these topology models to provide =
details on list or offlist to the chairs. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue Hares =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt
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A few notes from a quick read of this I-D:

- There are multiple places where the text says network.yang but
  really means ietf-network.yang. The same for network-topology.yang
  and ietf-network-topology.yang.

- The 'organization' and 'contact' are TBD or WILL-BE-DEFINED-LATER.
  I think this needs to be filled in now.

- There is probably a need to add some copyright etc. text to the
  module descriptions.

- Instead of putting I-D names into reference clauses, please insert
  instructions for the RFC editor so that the editor knows which
  things need to be replaced with RFC numbers.

- The description of the typedef link-id says 'The identifier may be
  opaque.' What does that mean? It is an inet:uri after all. If two
  systems populate a link-id, how are they going to come up with the
  same identifier? Is the SHOULD realistic to achieve? The same
  comment applies to the typedef tp-id.

- I am not sure whether the security considerations are sufficient.  I
  think it would be fair to point out that topology information is
  most likely information that requires proper protection. See also
  section 3.4 of RFC6087 which points to the template:

  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/yang-security-guidelines

- Reference 6021 has been obsoleted by RFC 6991.

- Reference 6241 is cited but not in the references section.

- The IANA considerations section is missing. You need to do IANA
  registrations of the YANG module name and the namespace URN.

- RFC 2119 terms are used but not 'imported'.

- There are references without citations: [yang-json], [restconf].

- I do not really understand why RFC1195, RFC2328, and RFC3209 are
  normative references. Even RFC6241 and RFC7223 may not be normative.
  Well, RFC6241 is not cited at all so it should be removed anyway
  (ah, bad for my h-index).

- Make sure idnits is happy.

I have asked the YANG doctors to comment on section 3.5.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Thu Oct  1 20:02:07 2015
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt
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Juergen: 

Thank you for the quick review.  The authors will revise this draft so look
for it's announcement. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 7:31 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt

A few notes from a quick read of this I-D:

- There are multiple places where the text says network.yang but
  really means ietf-network.yang. The same for network-topology.yang
  and ietf-network-topology.yang.

- The 'organization' and 'contact' are TBD or WILL-BE-DEFINED-LATER.
  I think this needs to be filled in now.

- There is probably a need to add some copyright etc. text to the
  module descriptions.

- Instead of putting I-D names into reference clauses, please insert
  instructions for the RFC editor so that the editor knows which
  things need to be replaced with RFC numbers.

- The description of the typedef link-id says 'The identifier may be
  opaque.' What does that mean? It is an inet:uri after all. If two
  systems populate a link-id, how are they going to come up with the
  same identifier? Is the SHOULD realistic to achieve? The same
  comment applies to the typedef tp-id.

- I am not sure whether the security considerations are sufficient.  I
  think it would be fair to point out that topology information is
  most likely information that requires proper protection. See also
  section 3.4 of RFC6087 which points to the template:

  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/yang-security-guidelines

- Reference 6021 has been obsoleted by RFC 6991.

- Reference 6241 is cited but not in the references section.

- The IANA considerations section is missing. You need to do IANA
  registrations of the YANG module name and the namespace URN.

- RFC 2119 terms are used but not 'imported'.

- There are references without citations: [yang-json], [restconf].

- I do not really understand why RFC1195, RFC2328, and RFC3209 are
  normative references. Even RFC6241 and RFC7223 may not be normative.
  Well, RFC6241 is not cited at all so it should be removed anyway
  (ah, bad for my h-index).

- Make sure idnits is happy.

I have asked the YANG doctors to comment on section 3.5.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : I2RS Environment Security Requirements
        Authors         : Daniel Migault
                          Joel Halpern
                          Susan Hares
	Filename        : draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2015-10-02

Abstract:
   This document provides environment security requirements for the I2RS
   architecture.  Environment security requirements are independent of
   the protocol used for I2RS.  As a result, the requirements provided
   in this document are intended to provide good security practise so
   I2RS can be securely deployed and operated.

   These security requirements are designated as environment security
   requirements as opposed to the protocol security requirements
   described in [I-D.ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements].  The
   reason to have separate document is that protocol security
   requirements are intended to help the design of the I2RS protocol
   whether the environment requirements are rather intended for
   deployment or implementations.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Oct  2 07:04:33 2015
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: [i2rs] draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt - 1 Week WG Adoption Review (10/1-10/8)
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Hi all:=20

The chairs feel draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt answer =
questions regarding the security environment for I2RS as by the IETF =
Security directorate and the IESG.   We plan to adopt this draft, but we =
would like to get your feedback.  This is a 1 week WG Adoption call for =
the WG to review this document and make comments on the adoption.=20

The authors have tried to address all comments made during the August.   =
Please send comments to the list.=20

The draft is at:=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-req=
s/

Sue Hares and Jeff Haas=20

-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 9:52 AM
To: Susan Hares; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern; Daniel Migault; Daniel =
Migault; Susan Hares
Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Daniel Migault and posted to the IETF =
repository.

Name:		draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs
Revision:	01
Title:		I2RS Environment Security Requirements
Document date:	2015-10-02
Group:		i2rs
Pages:		19
URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment=
-reqs-01.txt
Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-req=
s/
Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01
Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-=
reqs-01

Abstract:
   This document provides environment security requirements for the I2RS
   architecture.  Environment security requirements are independent of
   the protocol used for I2RS.  As a result, the requirements provided
   in this document are intended to provide good security practise so
   I2RS can be securely deployed and operated.

   These security requirements are designated as environment security
   requirements as opposed to the protocol security requirements
   described in [I-D.ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements].  The
   reason to have separate document is that protocol security
   requirements are intended to help the design of the I2RS protocol
   whether the environment requirements are rather intended for
   deployment or implementations.

                                                                         =
        =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



From nobody Fri Oct  2 07:36:27 2015
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From: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, i2rs@ietf.org, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] 1 week extension to WG Adoption call for draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environments
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Hi Linda,

Thank you for your feed back. We considered them - with all other feed
backs we receievd. We beleive the new version address all of them. Feel
free to let us know if we missed something. Here is a small recap of the
modifications performed to address your comments.

BR,
The co-authors

Comments / Responses for Linda's comments:

-          Communication channel between I2RS client and Agent (and the
channel between I2RS client and applications): The channel can be

o   Via physical Private network (e.g. within a secured direct connect
within one site),

o   within one administrative domain,  via virtual private network

o   Secured connection, such as TLS or IPSec

o   Public internet

o   ..



MGLT: Thank for the clarification.  I think that our REQ1 catches these
aspects as a way to isolate the I2RS plane from other. For communications
themselves, this version mostly redirects to hares-securtity
I-D.hares-i2rs-auth-trans.
Please let me know if you think we do not address your purpose.



-          Authentication & Authorization



o   the authentication & authorization requirement for different
communication channels can be different. Therefore, should have separate
sections to address specific requirement  for each communication channels
between I2RS agent <-> clients (and client <-> applications)



MGLT: Thank you for the comment. We have re-written the section 4 and I
hope the current section 4 on access control considers these aspects with
the following sections:

     4.1.  I2RS Access Control architecture  . . . . . . . . . . . .   8

     4.2.  I2RS Agent Access Control policies  . . . . . . . . . . .  12

     4.3.  I2RS Client Access Control policies . . . . . . . . . . .  13

     4.4.  Application and Access Control policies . . . . . . . . .  14



The current Section 4 of the draft already has very good description on the
subject. I think 4.4.1 and 4.42 can be separated out of the section.



MGLT: Thank you for pointing out the split. the section 4.4 has been
removed and outsourced to the I2RS Access Control and in the
draft-ietf-ares-protocol security requirements draft.



-          Encryption for the actual content between Client and Agent



MGLT: Similarly, we have moved to the  I2RS Access Control and in the
draft-ietf-ares-protocol security requirements



-          DoS Design requirement (currently in Section 5.2.1)

-          Management of conflict with other plane (e.g. the management
plane, multi-headed control, which has been discussed extensively in
ephemeral draft)



MGLT: The reference to the draft has been added. However, the
recommendations were mostly pointing to the text from the i2rs architecture
document.





I think the draft should be organized from the aspects of the security to
I2RS as suggested above. Here are some detailed questions and comments to
the requirements listed in the document:



Section 1:



The second paragraph stated the security recommendations must =C3=A2=E2=82=
=AC=C5=93specifying
where security functions may be hosted=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D. First of all I=
 don=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t see the
draft address this aspect. Second, I think   =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93where sec=
urity functions
are hosted=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D is orthogonal to =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93I2RS =
security=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D .



MGLT: I agree with your comment and we have removed the text from the
section.



Section 3:



what does isolating two planes mean? does it mean they have different
security requirement/issues? Or does it mean they need different protocols?



MGLT: Each plane has a specific scope of function.



What are the key differences with regard to the security requirements for  =
I2RS
plane and for management plane?  Section 3.1 describes the interaction
between I2RS plane and management plane. But I see the security requirement
for the management plane is similar to I2RS plane . If you think that they
are very different, can you elaborate more?



MGLT:  Thanks for the remark. Here is the text we added. Feel free to us
know is you think it is not clear enough.

"The I2RS plane purpose is to provide a standard programmatic interface of
the routing system resources to network oriented applications. Control
plane and forwarding planes are related to routing protocols, and I2RS is
based on top of those. The management plane is usually vendor specific,
provides a broader control over the networking equipment such as system
service. Given its associated privileges it is expected to be reserved to
highly trusted users like network administrators."





Section 3.4 has title =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Recommendations=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=
=C2=9D, but the content are all
requirements. Why not name the section =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Requirement=C3=
=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D?

MGLT: I prefer "Recommendation" at least for this section, as the way they
are implemented and enforce vary widely according to the environment.
However, I am open for discussion, and it could be moved to Requirements in
the future.



REQ 2: Does it that a different IP address than the one used by the
management system?



MGLT: Yes, we recommend that having a dedicated IP address or dedicated NIC
to enforce isolation.



How is REQ 22 different from REQ 21?



MGLT: Agree, they are very closed. We have outsourced these requirements to
the transport requirements.



REQ 27 is hard to enforce. How about say something like "shouldn't send any
information beyond what have been defined by the I2RS data model"?



MGLT: Agree. This is much better. However, we have outsourced this
requirements to the transport requirements.



REQ 30: simply controlling the resource can hardly prevent DoS. Malicious
client can occupy the resource while the valid one can't access.

MGLT:
This is true, however, what I meant here was to control resource so one
tenant does not over consume resources.



On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

> Linda
>
> <co-author hat on>
>
> We will include closed environments in the revised document.
>
>
>
> Sue
>
>
>
> *From:* i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Linda Dunbar
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 02, 2015 12:54 PM
> *To:* Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Netconf'
> *Subject:* Re: [i2rs] 1 week extension to WG Adoption call for
> draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environments
>
>
>
> Can the authors address my comments and the suggested changes to add a
> section on security threats and the associated requirements  with Closed
> Environment?
>
>
>
> Closed environment deployment can easily give people a sense of secure
> because the links between I2RS Client and I2RS Agent are guided by a
> physical =E2=80=9CWall=E2=80=9D.  The false sense of =E2=80=9CSecure=E2=
=80=9D is actually more dangerous
> because it can easily make the deployment miss the crucial security
> procedure.
>
>
>
> Therefore, I think it is important to have a dedicated section on securit=
y
> threats and requirement for the Closed Environment.
>
>
>
> Attached is my suggested text.
>
>
>
> Linda
>
>
>
> *From:* i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org <i2rs-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 01, 2015 12:10 PM
> *To:* i2rs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Netconf'
> *Subject:* [i2rs] 1 week extension to WG Adoption call for
> draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environments
>
>
>
> This is a 1 week extension to the WG adoption call for
> draft-mglt-i2rs-security.  Due error in the initial call email, the exact
> text to review was unclear (
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2rs/wwv1o8_mwurB05dN4D2yjr9tNFg).
>
>
>
> In reviewing the email, it appears that the authors have agree to change
> or delete most of the concerns except for combining this draft with
> draft-hares-i2rs-auth-trans-04.txt.   The chairs have decided to adopt bo=
th
> drafts as WG drafts, and make a subsequent WG calls to determine if the
> drafts should be combined.
>
>
>
> This draft is at:
>
>
>
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00.txt
>
>
>
> Daniel has indicated several changes on the list.  If you would like to
> see a revised draft for further comments, please indicate this on the lis=
t.
>
>
>
> Sue Hares and Jeff Haas
>
> I2RS co-chairs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
>

--e89a8f6430cc655a690521203808
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi Linda, <br><br></div>Thank you for your =
feed back. We considered them - with all other feed backs we receievd. We b=
eleive the new version address all of them. Feel free to let us know if we =
missed something. Here is a small recap of the modifications performed to a=
ddress your comments.<br><br></div>BR, <br></div>The co-authors<br><br>

<p class=3D"">Comments / Responses for Linda&#39;s comments: <br></p>

<p class=3D"">-<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Communication channel between I2RS client and Agent (and the channel
between I2RS client and applications): The channel can be</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Via phy=
sical
Private network (e.g. within a secured direct connect within one site),</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>within =
one
administrative domain,<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>via vi=
rtual
private network</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Secured
connection, such as TLS or IPSec</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>Public =
internet</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>..</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Thank for the clarification.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun=
:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I think that our REQ1 catches these aspects
as a way to isolate the I2RS plane from other. For communications themselve=
s,
this version mostly redirects to hares-securtity<span style=3D"mso-spacerun=
:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I-D.hares-i2rs-auth-trans. Please let me know
if you think we do not address your purpose.</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">-<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Authentication &amp; Authorization</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">o<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>the
authentication &amp; authorization requirement for different communication
channels can be different. Therefore, should have separate sections to addr=
ess
specific requirement<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>for each
communication channels between I2RS agent &lt;-&gt; clients (and client
&lt;-&gt; applications)</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Thank you for the comment. We have re-written the secti=
on
4 and I hope the current section 4 on access control considers these aspect=
s
with the following sections:

</p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 </span>4.1.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I2RS Access Cont=
rol architecture<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>. . . . . . =
. . . . . .<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>8</p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </s=
pan>4.2.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I2RS Agent Access Co=
ntrol policies<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>. . . . . . . =
. . . .<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>12</p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </s=
pan>4.3.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I2RS Client Access C=
ontrol policies . . . . .
. . . . . .<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>13</p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><s=
pan style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0</span>4.4.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun=
:yes">=C2=A0
</span>Application and Access Control policies . . . . . . . . .<span style=
=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>14</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">The current Section 4 of the draft already has very good
description on the subject. I think 4.4.1 and 4.42 can be separated out of =
the
section.</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Thank you for pointing out the split. the section
4.4 has been removed and outsourced to the I2RS Access Control and in the
draft-ietf-ares-protocol security requirements draft.</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">-<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Encryption for the actual content between Client and Agent</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Similarly, we have moved to the<span style=3D"mso-space=
run:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I2RS Access Control and in the
draft-ietf-ares-protocol security requirements</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">-<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>DoS
Design requirement (currently in Section 5.2.1)</p>

<p class=3D"">-<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span>Management of conflict with other plane (e.g. the management plane,
multi-headed control, which has been discussed extensively in ephemeral dra=
ft)</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: The reference to the draft has been added. However,
the recommendations were mostly pointing to the text from the i2rs architec=
ture
document.</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">I think the draft should be organized from the aspects of
the security to I2RS as suggested above. Here are some detailed questions a=
nd
comments to the requirements listed in the document:</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">Section 1:</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">The second paragraph stated the security recommendations
must =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93specifying where security functions may be hosted=
=C3=A2=E2=82=AC<span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C2=9D</span>. =
First of all I don<span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C3=A2=E2=82=
=AC=E2=84=A2</span>t see the draft address this
aspect. Second, I think<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span=
><span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93</span>w=
here security functions are
hosted<span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D</s=
pan> is orthogonal to <span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C3=A2=
=E2=82=AC=C5=93</span>I2RS security<span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Cali=
bri">=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D</span> .</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: I agree with your comment and we have removed the
text from the section.</p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span></p>

<p class=3D"">Section 3:</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">what does isolating two planes mean? does it mean they
have different security requirement/issues? Or does it mean they need diffe=
rent
protocols?</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Each plane has a specific scope of function.<span style=
=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span></p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">What are the key differences with regard to the security
requirements for<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>I2RS plane a=
nd for
management plane?<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>Section 3.1=
 describes
the interaction between I2RS plane and management plane. But I see the secu=
rity
requirement for the management plane is similar to I2RS plane . If you thin=
k
that they are very different, can you elaborate more?</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT:<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>Thanks fo=
r
the remark. Here is the text we added. Feel free to us know is you think it=
 is
not clear enough. </p>

<p class=3D"">&quot;The I2RS plane purpose is to provide a standard
programmatic interface of the routing system resources to network oriented
applications. Control plane and forwarding planes are related to routing
protocols, and I2RS is based on top of those. The management plane is usual=
ly
vendor specific, provides a broader control over the networking equipment s=
uch
as system service. Given its associated privileges it is expected to be
reserved to highly trusted users like network administrators.&quot;</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">Section 3.4 has title =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93Recommendations=C3=
=A2=E2=82=AC<span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">=C2=9D</span>, but=
 the content are all
requirements. Why not name the section <span style=3D"mso-bidi-font-family:=
Calibri">=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93</span>Requirement<span style=3D"mso-bidi-fon=
t-family:Calibri">=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C2=9D</span>?</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: I prefer &quot;Recommendation&quot; at least for
this section, as the way they are implemented and enforce vary widely accor=
ding
to the environment. However, I am open for discussion, and it could be move=
d to
Requirements in the future. </p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"">REQ 2: Does it that a different IP address than the one
used by the management system?</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Yes, we recommend that having a dedicated IP
address or dedicated NIC to enforce isolation.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:y=
es">=C2=A0
</span></p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">How is REQ 22 different from REQ 21?</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Agree, they are very closed. We have outsourced
these requirements to the transport requirements.</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">REQ 27 is hard to enforce. How about say something like
&quot;shouldn&#39;t send any information beyond what have been defined by t=
he I2RS
data model&quot;?</p>

<p class=3D"">=C2=A0</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT: Agree. This is much better. However, we have
outsourced this requirements to the transport requirements. </p>

<p class=3D""><span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0</span></p>

<p class=3D"">REQ 30: simply controlling the resource can hardly
prevent DoS. Malicious client can occupy the resource while the valid one c=
an&#39;t
access.</p>

<p class=3D"">MGLT:</p>

<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">This is true, however, what I meant here was to
control resource so one tenant does not over consume resources.<span style=
=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span></span><br><br><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:33 PM,=
 Susan Hares <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Linda <u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">&lt;co-author hat on&=
gt; <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1=
f497d">We will include closed environments in the revised document. <u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f4=
97d">Sue <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;b=
order-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b=
>On Behalf Of </b>Linda Dunbar<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 02, 201=
5 12:54 PM<br><b>To:</b> Susan Hares; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39;; &#39;=
Netconf&#39;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] 1 week extension to WG Adoption =
call for draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environments<u></u><u></u></span></p></di=
v></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Can the authors add=
ress my comments and the suggested changes to add a section on security thr=
eats and the associated requirements =C2=A0with Closed Environment?<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f49=
7d">Closed environment deployment can easily give people a sense of secure =
because the links between I2RS Client and I2RS Agent are guided by a physic=
al =E2=80=9CWall=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The false sense of =E2=80=9CSecure=E2=80=
=9D is actually more dangerous because it can easily make the deployment mi=
ss the crucial security procedure. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Therefore, I think it is imp=
ortant to have a dedicated section on security threats and requirement for =
the Closed Environment. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Attached is my suggested text. <u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f49=
7d">Linda<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;b=
order-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2=
rs-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b=
>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 01, 2015 1=
2:10 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2=
rs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39;; &#39;Netconf&#39;<br>=
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] 1 week extension to WG Adoption call for draft-mglt-=
i2rs-security-environments<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a 1 week =
extension to the WG adoption call for draft-mglt-i2rs-security.=C2=A0 Due e=
rror in the initial call email, the exact text to review was unclear ( <a h=
ref=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2rs/wwv1o8_mwurB05dN4D2yjr9tN=
Fg" target=3D"_blank">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2rs/wwv1o8_mwu=
rB05dN4D2yjr9tNFg</a>). <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In reviewing the email, it appears tha=
t the authors have agree to change or delete most of the concerns except fo=
r combining this draft with draft-hares-i2rs-auth-trans-04.txt. =C2=A0=C2=
=A0The chairs have decided to adopt both drafts as WG drafts, and make a su=
bsequent WG calls to determine if the drafts should be combined. <u></u><u>=
</u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">This draft is at: =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/=
draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/www.ietf.org/id/draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00.txt</a><u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">Daniel has indicated several changes on the list.=C2=A0 If you would=
 like to see a revised draft for further comments, please indicate this on =
the list. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares and Jeff Haas <u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">I2RS co-chairs <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<span><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;color:#222222;background:#f9f9f9">=
=C2=A0</span></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><br>_________=
______________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--e89a8f6430cc655a690521203808--


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From: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
To: Nadeau Thomas <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>
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Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, i2rs@ietf.org, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs, REQ 3
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Hi,

Thank you for raising this issue. I confirm the new version has removed
this requirements.

BR,
Daniel

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com
> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This has been removed. I agree that if that if it is not implementable, we
> should not have it (even as a recommendation), Thanks for the feed back. I
> am catching up with all received comments.
>
> BR,
> Daniel
>
> On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Nadeau Thomas <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>
> wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> > On Aug 28, 2015:3:07 AM, at 3:07 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 04:53:50PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
>> >> Jeff:
>> >>
>> >> I agree it is a goal rather than an absolute.  My first discussions
>> with
>> >> Daniel pointed this out.  Do you think moving it back to
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>   REQ 3:  The I2RS Agent validates data to try to insure that
>> >>         injecting the Information does not create a deadlock with any
>> other
>> >> system
>> >>        or a routing loop or prevent the control plane from converging.
>> >>       (This is a goal for the system, and it should keep track of when
>> >>        Injecting information does cause deadlocks, routing loops, or
>> >>        retards the routing convergence process.).
>> >>
>> >
>> > I already pointed out on July 21 that this requirement is not
>> > implementable. Adding hand-waving text to it does not help, so
>> > I am in favour of removing it.
>> >
>> > /js
>> >
>> > --
>> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > i2rs mailing list
>> > i2rs@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi, <br><br></div>Thank you for raising thi=
s issue. I confirm the new version has removed this requirements.<br><br></=
div>BR, <br></div>Daniel<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Daniel Migault <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">daniel.migault@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi, <br><br>This has been removed.=
 I agree that if that if it is not implementable, we should not have it (ev=
en as a recommendation), Thanks for the feed back. I am catching up with al=
l received comments.<br><br></div>BR, <br></div>Daniel<br></div><div class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Nadeau Thomas <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.com" target=3D"_blank">tnadeau=
@lucidvision.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">+1=
<br>
<div><div><br>
&gt; On Aug 28, 2015:3:07 AM, at 3:07 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoen=
waelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 04:53:50PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Jeff:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I agree it is a goal rather than an absolute.=C2=A0 My first discu=
ssions with<br>
&gt;&gt; Daniel pointed this out.=C2=A0 Do you think moving it back to<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ 3:=C2=A0 The I2RS Agent validates data to try to i=
nsure that<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0injecting the Information does no=
t create a deadlock with any other<br>
&gt;&gt; system<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or a routing loop or prevent the contro=
l plane from converging.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(This is a goal for the system, and it s=
hould keep track of when<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Injecting information does cause deadlo=
cks, routing loops, or<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 retards the routing convergence process=
.).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I already pointed out on July 21 that this requirement is not<br>
&gt; implementable. Adding hand-waving text to it does not help, so<br>
&gt; I am in favour of removing it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; /js<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U=
niversity Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; Phone: <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203587" value=3D"+494212003587=
" target=3D"_blank">+49 421 200 3587</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=
ampus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20421%20200%203103" value=3D"+49=
4212003103" target=3D"_blank">+49 421 200 3103</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; i2rs mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--e89a8f6430cc943d900521203b1d--


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To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00 Thoughts on AAA
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Hi Jeffrey,

Thank you for your feed back. We considered them - with all other feed
backs we received. We believe the new version address all of them. Feel
free to let us know if we missed something. Here is a small recap of the
modifications performed to address your comments.

BR,
The co-authors

I have some contrary thoughts on the AAA section of this document.

MGLT: The AAA section has completely be re-written.

Section 4.1 tries to describe requirements wherein the I2RS Clients may
request for subsets of AAA policy to be exported to the Client so that the
client may enforce them.  While this seems like a nice way to scale the
operations, in some cases disclosing those policies (even if we find a good
way to encode the AAA validation in a generic enough way to distribute) may
accidentally disclose information that is otherwise intended to be secure.

MGLT: Thanks for pointing out this issue. Information leakage has been
added in the document as something to balance with a distributed access
control system.

I would seek comment from the security directorate, but I suspect we don't
want to do this.

But in section 4.4, we try to discuss availability.  The first sentence
immediately says "enforcement should not remain local", while one way to
enable security in some environments is to distribute and synchronize
policy to be enforced locally.

It then goes on to talk about general availability mechanisms and then we
further dive into security against DoS.

MGLT: I agree with the comment. The section 4.4 has been removed and all
DoS specific consideration has been keept in a specific section to make the
document more coherent.
4.4.  I2RS AAA Security Domain  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
       4.4.1.  Available I2RS Communication Channel  . . . . . . . .  12
       4.4.2.  Trusted I2RS Communications Channel . . . . . . . . .  14
Have been removed.

I believe we may be boiling the ocean a bit to try to go into too many
details about the design of secure AAA systems.  It seems a bit out of
scope for I2RS to do such work; we should defer to work done elsewhere on
the topic, if it exists.  If it doesn't exist, I'm not sure we should do it.

What is right for us to point out is, "If we use a remote AAA mechanism, it
must be robust in hostile environments".  Expand that as you will, but
being too proscriptive is not our job.

MGLT: I agree with the comment. I hope the new version of the section
address your comment.



On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

> I have some contrary thoughts on the AAA section of this document.
>
> Section 4.1 tries to describe requirements wherein the I2RS Clients may
> request for subsets of AAA policy to be exported to the Client so that the
> client may enforce them.  While this seems like a nice way to scale the
> operations, in some cases disclosing those policies (even if we find a good
> way to encode the AAA validation in a generic enough way to distribute) may
> accidentally disclose information that is otherwise intended to be secure.
>
> I would seek comment from the security directorate, but I suspect we don't
> want to do this.
>
> But in section 4.4, we try to discuss availability.  The first sentence
> immediately says "enforcement should not remain local", while one way to
> enable security in some environments is to distribute and synchronize
> policy
> to be enforced locally.
>
> It then goes on to talk about general availability mechanisms and then we
> further dive into security against DoS.
>
> I believe we may be boiling the ocean a bit to try to go into too many
> details about the design of secure AAA systems.  It seems a bit out of
> scope
> for I2RS to do such work; we should defer to work done elsewhere on the
> topic, if it exists.  If it doesn't exist, I'm not sure we should do it.
>
> What is right for us to point out is, "If we use a remote AAA mechanism, it
> must be robust in hostile environments".  Expand that as you will, but
> being
> too proscriptive is not our job.
>
> -- Jeff
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>

--047d7bb04da25a8d370521204471
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Jeffrey, <br><br>Thank you for your feed back. We consi=
dered them - with all other feed backs we received. We believe the new vers=
ion address all of them. Feel free to let us know if we missed something. H=
ere is a small recap of the modifications performed to address your comment=
s.<br><br>BR,<br>The co-authors<br><br>I have some contrary thoughts on the=
 AAA section of this document.<br><br>MGLT: The AAA section has completely =
be re-written. <br><br>Section 4.1 tries to describe requirements wherein t=
he I2RS Clients may request for subsets of AAA policy to be exported to the=
 Client so that the client may enforce them.=C2=A0 While this seems like a =
nice way to scale the operations, in some cases disclosing those policies (=
even if we find a good way to encode the AAA validation in a generic enough=
 way to distribute) may accidentally disclose information that is otherwise=
 intended to be secure.<br><br>MGLT: Thanks for pointing out this issue. In=
formation leakage has been added in the document as something to balance wi=
th a distributed access control system.<br><br>I would seek comment from th=
e security directorate, but I suspect we don&#39;t want to do this.<br><br>=
But in section 4.4, we try to discuss availability.=C2=A0 The first sentenc=
e immediately says &quot;enforcement should not remain local&quot;, while o=
ne way to enable security in some environments is to distribute and synchro=
nize policy to be enforced locally.<br><br>It then goes on to talk about ge=
neral availability mechanisms and then we further dive into security agains=
t DoS.<br><br>MGLT: I agree with the comment. The section 4.4 has been remo=
ved and all DoS specific consideration has been keept in a specific section=
 to make the document more coherent.<br>4.4.=C2=A0 I2RS AAA Security Domain=
=C2=A0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .=C2=A0 12<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.4.1.=C2=A0 Available I2RS Communication Channel=C2=A0 . . . =
. . . . .=C2=A0 12<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4.4.2.=C2=A0 Tru=
sted I2RS Communications Channel . . . . . . . . .=C2=A0 14 Have been remov=
ed.<br>=C2=A0<br>I believe we may be boiling the ocean a bit to try to go i=
nto too many details about the design of secure AAA systems.=C2=A0 It seems=
 a bit out of scope for I2RS to do such work; we should defer to work done =
elsewhere on the topic, if it exists.=C2=A0 If it doesn&#39;t exist, I&#39;=
m not sure we should do it.<br><br>What is right for us to point out is, &q=
uot;If we use a remote AAA mechanism, it must be robust in hostile environm=
ents&quot;.=C2=A0 Expand that as you will, but being too proscriptive is no=
t our job.<br><br>MGLT: I agree with the comment. I hope the new version of=
 the section address your comment.<br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:33 PM, Jeffrey=
 Haas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>I have some contrary thoughts on the AAA section of this document.<br>
<br>
Section 4.1 tries to describe requirements wherein the I2RS Clients may<br>
request for subsets of AAA policy to be exported to the Client so that the<=
br>
client may enforce them.=C2=A0 While this seems like a nice way to scale th=
e<br>
operations, in some cases disclosing those policies (even if we find a good=
<br>
way to encode the AAA validation in a generic enough way to distribute) may=
<br>
accidentally disclose information that is otherwise intended to be secure.<=
br>
<br>
I would seek comment from the security directorate, but I suspect we don&#3=
9;t<br>
want to do this.<br>
<br>
But in section 4.4, we try to discuss availability.=C2=A0 The first sentenc=
e<br>
immediately says &quot;enforcement should not remain local&quot;, while one=
 way to<br>
enable security in some environments is to distribute and synchronize polic=
y<br>
to be enforced locally.<br>
<br>
It then goes on to talk about general availability mechanisms and then we<b=
r>
further dive into security against DoS.<br>
<br>
I believe we may be boiling the ocean a bit to try to go into too many<br>
details about the design of secure AAA systems.=C2=A0 It seems a bit out of=
 scope<br>
for I2RS to do such work; we should defer to work done elsewhere on the<br>
topic, if it exists.=C2=A0 If it doesn&#39;t exist, I&#39;m not sure we sho=
uld do it.<br>
<br>
What is right for us to point out is, &quot;If we use a remote AAA mechanis=
m, it<br>
must be robust in hostile environments&quot;.=C2=A0 Expand that as you will=
, but being<br>
too proscriptive is not our job.<br>
<br>
-- Jeff<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bb04da25a8d370521204471--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Requirements for Subscription to YANG Datastores
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2015-09-28

Abstract:
   This document provides requirements for a service that allows client
   applications to subscribe to updates of a YANG datastore.  Based on
   criteria negotiated as part of a subscription, updates will be pushed
   to targeted recipients.  Such a capability eliminates the need for
   periodic polling of YANG datastores by applications and fills a
   functional gap in existing YANG transports (i.e.  Netconf and
   Restconf).  Such a service can be summarized as a "pub/sub" service
   for YANG datastore updates.  Beyond a set of basic requirements for
   the service, various refinements are addressed.  These refinements
   include: periodicity of object updates, filtering out of objects
   underneath a requested a subtree, and delivery QoS guarantees.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Oct  5 06:58:42 2015
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 13:58:32 +0000
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Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Hi,

Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop-id, but neither specifies=
 who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point that out?

It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs could be allocated by routers=
 (servers) or could be allocated by clients. Different ID spaces would be u=
sed depending on who allocates the IDs.

Related to the above, a specific question on the data model:

  grouping nexthop {
    leaf nexthop-id {
      mandatory true;
      type uint32;
    }
    choice nexthop-type {
       ...
       case nexthop-protection {
        list nexthop-protection-list {
            key "nexthop-protection-id";=20
            leaf nexthop-protection-id {
              mandatory true;
              type uint32;
            }
           leaf nexthop-preference {
             ...
           }
           leaf nexthop {
             mandatory true;
             type nexthop-ref;
           }
        }
      }

Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list it requires a key and we =
defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which I assume the controller ne=
eds to assign and both the controller and the router needs to remember. The=
 list entry has a member "nexthop" which is a nexthop-ref, which is a nexth=
op-id:

  typedef nexthop-ref {
    type leafref {
      path  "/i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list" +
            "/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:nexthop-id";
    }
  }

So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as the key?

Thanks.

Jeffrey


From nobody Mon Oct  5 09:59:20 2015
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From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
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I'm reading through the latest draft, and I have a few questions/comments.

In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker? 
Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an 
external entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component 
of the Publisher?

In section 4.2.2 regarding negotiation, it states that when negotiating 
QoS, if the Subscription Service is unable to meet the request, it must, 
"include in its decline a set of criteria that would have been 
acceptable when the Subscription Request was made."

This got me thinking about future state.  That is, let's say that as of 
now I negotiate that I can do reaction time of T.  But in an hour, due 
to other things (maybe higher-priority work) I can only do T plus some 
factor, X.  The requirements in section 4.2.1 state that a Subscription 
Service can terminate a Subscription at any time.

And as I read on, Section 4.2.3 describes what happens in the case of a 
"breach of contract."  Perhaps that paragraph needs to folded in to the 
Negotiation section:

"When a Subscription Service is not able to send updates per its
    subscription contract, the Subscription must notify subscribers and
    put the subscription into a state of indicating the Subscription was
    suspended by the service.  When able to resume service, subscribers
    need to be notified as well.  If unable to resume service, the
    Subscription Service may terminate the subscription and notify
    Subscribers accordingly."

In section 4.2.5, is it needed to say that the mutual authn that exists 
between Subscriber and Subscription Service take into account the 
Publisher?  That is, as a Subscriber I would want to ensure that a given 
Subscription Service is actually providing data from a known, trusted 
Publisher.  I don't see any mention of Publishers in this section, and I 
would think there should be some in the case where the Subscription 
Service could be a broker.

I like the fact that you have section 4.2.8.  It goes to the idea of 
built-in serviceability.  When you say, "fetch" is it envisioned that 
this data is exposed through another Subscription Service, or will there 
be other mechanisms to get at this?

Joe

On 10/2/15 15:08, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>   This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : Requirements for Subscription to YANG Datastores
>          Authors         : Eric Voit
>                            Alexander Clemm
>                            Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 17
> 	Date            : 2015-09-28
>
> Abstract:
>     This document provides requirements for a service that allows client
>     applications to subscribe to updates of a YANG datastore.  Based on
>     criteria negotiated as part of a subscription, updates will be pushed
>     to targeted recipients.  Such a capability eliminates the need for
>     periodic polling of YANG datastores by applications and fills a
>     functional gap in existing YANG transports (i.e.  Netconf and
>     Restconf).  Such a service can be summarized as a "pub/sub" service
>     for YANG datastore updates.  Beyond a set of basic requirements for
>     the service, various refinements are addressed.  These refinements
>     include: periodicity of object updates, filtering out of objects
>     underneath a requested a subtree, and delivery QoS guarantees.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


From nobody Mon Oct  5 14:22:23 2015
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
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Hi Joe,

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs, October 05, 2015 12:59 PM

I'm reading through the latest draft, and I have a few questions/comments.

In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker?=20
Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an ext=
ernal entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component of the =
Publisher?
<Eric> I don't know of any reason why the Subscription Service must be a co=
mponent of the Publisher.

In section 4.2.2 regarding negotiation, it states that when negotiating QoS=
, if the Subscription Service is unable to meet the request, it must, "incl=
ude in its decline a set of criteria that would have been acceptable when t=
he Subscription Request was made."

This got me thinking about future state.  That is, let's say that as of now=
 I negotiate that I can do reaction time of T.  But in an hour, due to othe=
r things (maybe higher-priority work) I can only do T plus some factor, X. =
 The requirements in section 4.2.1 state that a Subscription Service can te=
rminate a Subscription at any time.

And as I read on, Section 4.2.3 describes what happens in the case of a "br=
each of contract."  Perhaps that paragraph needs to folded in to the Negoti=
ation section:

"When a Subscription Service is not able to send updates per its
    subscription contract, the Subscription must notify subscribers and
    put the subscription into a state of indicating the Subscription was
    suspended by the service.  When able to resume service, subscribers
    need to be notified as well.  If unable to resume service, the
    Subscription Service may terminate the subscription and notify
    Subscribers accordingly."
<Eric> Yes, this is paragraph 3 of Section 4.2.3.   I think you are suggest=
ing we make more robust error/informational codes for a Suspended subscript=
ion, including giving parameters which might work to un-suspend.   The Subs=
criber could then attempt a "Modify Subscription" which would then have a c=
hance to bring things back to "Active".   The hard part is knowing when to =
send these parameters when a suspension is very temporary due to short duri=
ng overload conditions.  This will be especially difficult as many subscrip=
tions could be suspended (and modifications synchronized) at the same time =
due to an transient overload event.

In section 4.2.5, is it needed to say that the mutual authn that exists bet=
ween Subscriber and Subscription Service take into account the Publisher?  =
That is, as a Subscriber I would want to ensure that a given Subscription S=
ervice is actually providing data from a known, trusted Publisher.  I don't=
 see any mention of Publishers in this section, and I would think there sho=
uld be some in the case where the Subscription Service could be a broker.
<Eric>  This could be as simple as " Publisher and Subscription Service mus=
t maintain a secure relationship".   I have no problem adding that.

I like the fact that you have section 4.2.8.  It goes to the idea of built-=
in serviceability.  When you say, "fetch" is it envisioned that this data i=
s exposed through another Subscription Service, or will there be other mech=
anisms to get at this?
<Eric> Why would this need to be a different Subscription Service?  I envis=
ioned the same one.

Eric

Joe

On 10/2/15 15:08, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
>   This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Workin=
g Group of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : Requirements for Subscription to YANG Datastor=
es
>          Authors         : Eric Voit
>                            Alexander Clemm
>                            Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 17
> 	Date            : 2015-09-28
>
> Abstract:
>     This document provides requirements for a service that allows client
>     applications to subscribe to updates of a YANG datastore.  Based on
>     criteria negotiated as part of a subscription, updates will be pushed
>     to targeted recipients.  Such a capability eliminates the need for
>     periodic polling of YANG datastores by applications and fills a
>     functional gap in existing YANG transports (i.e.  Netconf and
>     Restconf).  Such a service can be summarized as a "pub/sub" service
>     for YANG datastore updates.  Beyond a set of basic requirements for
>     the service, various refinements are addressed.  These refinements
>     include: periodicity of object updates, filtering out of objects
>     underneath a requested a subtree, and delivery QoS guarantees.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements
> -03
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of=20
> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


From nobody Mon Oct  5 14:27:35 2015
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
References: <20151002190856.30194.1040.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5612AC63.4020000@cisco.com> <f8a6b4a291e54fa2a681d0db1af83a9d@XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com>
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On 10/5/15 17:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:

>
> In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker?
> Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an external entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component of the Publisher?
> <Eric> I don't know of any reason why the Subscription Service must be a component of the Publisher.

Nor do I.  I just asked the question to justify some of my other comments.

>
> In section 4.2.2 regarding negotiation, it states that when negotiating QoS, if the Subscription Service is unable to meet the request, it must, "include in its decline a set of criteria that would have been acceptable when the Subscription Request was made."
>
> This got me thinking about future state.  That is, let's say that as of now I negotiate that I can do reaction time of T.  But in an hour, due to other things (maybe higher-priority work) I can only do T plus some factor, X.  The requirements in section 4.2.1 state that a Subscription Service can terminate a Subscription at any time.
>
> And as I read on, Section 4.2.3 describes what happens in the case of a "breach of contract."  Perhaps that paragraph needs to folded in to the Negotiation section:
>
> "When a Subscription Service is not able to send updates per its
>      subscription contract, the Subscription must notify subscribers and
>      put the subscription into a state of indicating the Subscription was
>      suspended by the service.  When able to resume service, subscribers
>      need to be notified as well.  If unable to resume service, the
>      Subscription Service may terminate the subscription and notify
>      Subscribers accordingly."
> <Eric> Yes, this is paragraph 3 of Section 4.2.3.   I think you are suggesting we make more robust error/informational codes for a Suspended subscription, including giving parameters which might work to un-suspend.   The Subscriber could then attempt a "Modify Subscription" which would then have a chance to bring things back to "Active".   The hard part is knowing when to send these parameters when a suspension is very temporary due to short during overload conditions.  This will be especially difficult as many subscriptions could be suspended (and modifications synchronized) at the same time due to an transient overload event.

That would be ideal, but at its simplest, I am suggesting some of the 
wording in section 4.2.3 make it into the Negotiation section to be 
clear what would happen if negotiated attributes are no longer able to 
be maintained.

>
> In section 4.2.5, is it needed to say that the mutual authn that exists between Subscriber and Subscription Service take into account the Publisher?  That is, as a Subscriber I would want to ensure that a given Subscription Service is actually providing data from a known, trusted Publisher.  I don't see any mention of Publishers in this section, and I would think there should be some in the case where the Subscription Service could be a broker.
> <Eric>  This could be as simple as " Publisher and Subscription Service must maintain a secure relationship".   I have no problem adding that.

Works for me.  I just think that aspect of secure interactions needs to 
be called out.

>
> I like the fact that you have section 4.2.8.  It goes to the idea of built-in serviceability.  When you say, "fetch" is it envisioned that this data is exposed through another Subscription Service, or will there be other mechanisms to get at this?
> <Eric> Why would this need to be a different Subscription Service?  I envisioned the same one.

So did I.  I didn't think it was clear given the word "fetch."  Perhaps 
you should state that these data must be available via the subscription 
service.

Joe


From nobody Mon Oct  5 14:39:46 2015
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>
References: <20151002190856.30194.1040.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5612AC63.4020000@cisco.com> <f8a6b4a291e54fa2a681d0db1af83a9d@XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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I think I am missing something in the discussion of this first point 
about separation.
While lots of implementation strategies are possible, the communication 
pattern I would anticipate for I2RS is that an I2RS client is 
communicating with an I2RS Agent who handles some piece(s) of 
information.  The client would send its subscription to that agent.  The 
client would expect the information resulting from its subscription to 
come back on a communications channel from the same entity.

So unless we add a lot of extra mechanisms to the protocol, I don't see 
how the effective manager of the subscription service for I2RS can be 
separate from the effective producer as seen by I2RS.

You can have brokers who accept subscriptions from multiple parties, 
subscribe on their own behalf to the I2RS agent, and then fan the 
results out to other parties.  But that would seem to represent a 
(legitimate) reuse of the subscription mechanism in a different context.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/5/15 5:22 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs, October 05, 2015 12:59 PM
>
> I'm reading through the latest draft, and I have a few questions/comments.
>
> In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker?
> Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an external entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component of the Publisher?
> <Eric> I don't know of any reason why the Subscription Service must be a component of the Publisher.


From nobody Mon Oct  5 14:52:13 2015
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
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Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 21:52:09 +0000
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> From: Joel M. Halpern, October 05, 2015 5:40 PM
>=20
> I think I am missing something in the discussion of this first point abou=
t
> separation.
> While lots of implementation strategies are possible, the communication
> pattern I would anticipate for I2RS is that an I2RS client is communicati=
ng with
> an I2RS Agent who handles some piece(s) of information.  The client would=
 send
> its subscription to that agent.  The client would expect the information =
resulting
> from its subscription to come back on a communications channel from the s=
ame
> entity.
>=20
> So unless we add a lot of extra mechanisms to the protocol, I don't see h=
ow the
> effective manager of the subscription service for I2RS can be separate fr=
om the
> effective producer as seen by I2RS.

I agree with you.   I was trying to convey that I see no reason that the Re=
quirements for the Subscription Service cannot be augmented (not changed) t=
o allow for additional internal interface specifications.  =20

In this case, both incremental requirements and protocols would be needed. =
 There certainly wouldn't be one protocol.  I have no desire to pursue this=
 myself.  Others might.

> You can have brokers who accept subscriptions from multiple parties, subs=
cribe
> on their own behalf to the I2RS agent, and then fan the results out to ot=
her
> parties.  But that would seem to represent a
> (legitimate) reuse of the subscription mechanism in a different context.

Yes.

Eric

> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 10/5/15 5:22 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs, October 05, 2015 12:59 PM
> >
> > I'm reading through the latest draft, and I have a few questions/commen=
ts.
> >
> > In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker?
> > Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an=
 external
> entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component of the Publ=
isher?
> > <Eric> I don't know of any reason why the Subscription Service must be =
a
> component of the Publisher.


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
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> From: Joe Clarke, October 05, 2015 5:27 PM
>=20
> On 10/5/15 17:22, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>=20
> >
> > In section 3, could the Subscription Service be an external broker?
> > Said another way, it reads like the Subscription Service is/could be an=
 external
> entity.  Is that the case, or will this always be a component of the Publ=
isher?
> > <Eric> I don't know of any reason why the Subscription Service must be =
a
> component of the Publisher.
>=20
> Nor do I.  I just asked the question to justify some of my other comments=
.
>=20
> >
> > In section 4.2.2 regarding negotiation, it states that when negotiating=
 QoS, if
> the Subscription Service is unable to meet the request, it must, "include=
 in its
> decline a set of criteria that would have been acceptable when the Subscr=
iption
> Request was made."
> >
> > This got me thinking about future state.  That is, let's say that as of=
 now I
> negotiate that I can do reaction time of T.  But in an hour, due to other=
 things
> (maybe higher-priority work) I can only do T plus some factor, X.  The
> requirements in section 4.2.1 state that a Subscription Service can termi=
nate a
> Subscription at any time.
> >
> > And as I read on, Section 4.2.3 describes what happens in the case of a=
 "breach
> of contract."  Perhaps that paragraph needs to folded in to the Negotiati=
on
> section:
> >
> > "When a Subscription Service is not able to send updates per its
> >      subscription contract, the Subscription must notify subscribers an=
d
> >      put the subscription into a state of indicating the Subscription w=
as
> >      suspended by the service.  When able to resume service, subscriber=
s
> >      need to be notified as well.  If unable to resume service, the
> >      Subscription Service may terminate the subscription and notify
> >      Subscribers accordingly."
> > <Eric> Yes, this is paragraph 3 of Section 4.2.3.   I think you are sug=
gesting we
> make more robust error/informational codes for a Suspended subscription,
> including giving parameters which might work to un-suspend.   The Subscri=
ber
> could then attempt a "Modify Subscription" which would then have a chance=
 to
> bring things back to "Active".   The hard part is knowing when to send th=
ese
> parameters when a suspension is very temporary due to short during overlo=
ad
> conditions.  This will be especially difficult as many subscriptions coul=
d be
> suspended (and modifications synchronized) at the same time due to an
> transient overload event.
>=20
> That would be ideal, but at its simplest, I am suggesting some of the wor=
ding in
> section 4.2.3 make it into the Negotiation section to be clear what would
> happen if negotiated attributes are no longer able to be maintained.

There will be multiple ways that a Subscription Update could fail to get pu=
shed.  Examples could be based on Bandwidth, CPU, or flow control reasons. =
 Or it could be that someone put a huge set of data under a subtree which w=
asn't there during the establishment of the original subscription.   I woul=
dn't want to prohibit the sending of parameters which might result in a suc=
cessful reinstatement on the subscription.  But I wouldn't mandate it eithe=
r.

My suggestion is that there is the option to send suggested parameters.  Bu=
t that we don't mandate this, nor which parameters may be sent.
=20
> >
> > In section 4.2.5, is it needed to say that the mutual authn that exists=
 between
> Subscriber and Subscription Service take into account the Publisher?  Tha=
t is, as a
> Subscriber I would want to ensure that a given Subscription Service is ac=
tually
> providing data from a known, trusted Publisher.  I don't see any mention =
of
> Publishers in this section, and I would think there should be some in the=
 case
> where the Subscription Service could be a broker.
> > <Eric>  This could be as simple as " Publisher and Subscription Service=
 must
> maintain a secure relationship".   I have no problem adding that.
>=20
> Works for me.  I just think that aspect of secure interactions needs to b=
e called
> out.
> >
> > I like the fact that you have section 4.2.8.  It goes to the idea of bu=
ilt-in
> serviceability.  When you say, "fetch" is it envisioned that this data is=
 exposed
> through another Subscription Service, or will there be other mechanisms t=
o get
> at this?
> > <Eric> Why would this need to be a different Subscription Service?  I
> envisioned the same one.
>=20
> So did I.  I didn't think it was clear given the word "fetch."  Perhaps y=
ou should
> state that these data must be available via the subscription service.

"It must be possible to fetch a list and status of all Subscription Request=
s made over a period of time to a Subscription Service.    If a Subscriptio=
n failed to establish or has been suspended, reasons must be provided.  Exa=
mple reasons might include: "

Eric
=20
> Joe


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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
References: <20151002190856.30194.1040.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5612AC63.4020000@cisco.com> <f8a6b4a291e54fa2a681d0db1af83a9d@XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com> <5612EB41.60902@cisco.com> <72b2ab0f1e1a449983aee81503564aec@XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com>
From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc.
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
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On 10/5/15 18:16, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>>> And as I read on, Section 4.2.3 describes what happens in the case of a "breach
>> of contract."  Perhaps that paragraph needs to folded in to the Negotiation
>> section:
>>>
>>> "When a Subscription Service is not able to send updates per its
>>>       subscription contract, the Subscription must notify subscribers and
>>>       put the subscription into a state of indicating the Subscription was
>>>       suspended by the service.  When able to resume service, subscribers
>>>       need to be notified as well.  If unable to resume service, the
>>>       Subscription Service may terminate the subscription and notify
>>>       Subscribers accordingly."
>>> <Eric> Yes, this is paragraph 3 of Section 4.2.3.   I think you are suggesting we
>> make more robust error/informational codes for a Suspended subscription,
>> including giving parameters which might work to un-suspend.   The Subscriber
>> could then attempt a "Modify Subscription" which would then have a chance to
>> bring things back to "Active".   The hard part is knowing when to send these
>> parameters when a suspension is very temporary due to short during overload
>> conditions.  This will be especially difficult as many subscriptions could be
>> suspended (and modifications synchronized) at the same time due to an
>> transient overload event.
>>
>> That would be ideal, but at its simplest, I am suggesting some of the wording in
>> section 4.2.3 make it into the Negotiation section to be clear what would
>> happen if negotiated attributes are no longer able to be maintained.
>
> There will be multiple ways that a Subscription Update could fail to get pushed.  Examples could be based on Bandwidth, CPU, or flow control reasons.  Or it could be that someone put a huge set of data under a subtree which wasn't there during the establishment of the original subscription.   I wouldn't want to prohibit the sending of parameters which might result in a successful reinstatement on the subscription.  But I wouldn't mandate it either.
>
> My suggestion is that there is the option to send suggested parameters.  But that we don't mandate this, nor which parameters may be sent.

Agreed.

>> So did I.  I didn't think it was clear given the word "fetch."  Perhaps you should
>> state that these data must be available via the subscription service.
>
> "It must be possible to fetch a list and status of all Subscription Requests made over a period of time to a Subscription Service.    If a Subscription failed to establish or has been suspended, reasons must be provided.  Example reasons might include:"

Sure, that sounds better, but my contention here was the make explicit 
that "fetch" meant to make these data available via the Subscription 
Service itself.  That is, define how one would fetch these data.

Joe


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Subject: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting
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I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 

 

1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]

2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary 

   [10:05 - 10:15]

3) Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30] 

4) I2RS Protocol Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]

5) Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]

7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]

8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] 

 

 

Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 

I2RS Interim 10/7 

Wednesday, October 7, 2015 

10:00 am  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)  |  2 hrs 

 

 

Join WebEx meeting 

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1e24725f4e5646061f21baae1c6a87db

 

Meeting number:            649 136 221 

Meeting password:         kent.andy.proto

 

Join by phone

1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)

1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

Access code: 649 136 221

Toll-free calling restrictions

 

 

 

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I2RS Interim =
10/7/2015 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[10:05 - =
10:15]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>3) Discussion of Requirements =
[10:15-30] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>4) I2RS Protocol Strawman =
[10:25 - 10:45]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>5) Discussion of I2RS =
Protocol [10:45-11:00]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>7) I2RS =
Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>8) I2RS =
FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Next I2RS =
Meeting 10/7/2015 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I2RS Interim 10/7 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wednesday, October 7, 2015 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>10:00 am&nbsp; |&nbsp; Eastern =
Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)&nbsp; |&nbsp; 2 hrs =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Join WebEx =
meeting <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm1e24725f4e564=
6061f21baae1c6a87db<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Meeting =
number: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 649 =
136 221 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Meeting =
password:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
kent.andy.proto<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Join by =
phone<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll =
free number (US/Canada)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number =
(US/Canada)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Access code: 649 136 =
221<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Toll-free calling =
restrictions<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents  (10/6 to 10/20/2015)  -
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This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: 

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

 

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  

This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.

We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requiremen
ts/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

 

Sue Hares 

 


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>This =
begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</a><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This section =
is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We will discuss whether this =
section should be kept or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security=
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security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requireme=
nts/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirement=
s/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
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class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/">ht=
tp://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</a><o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue =
Hares <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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This begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07.txt.   You
can obtain the document by going to: 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/

 

The question you should consider: 

 

1)      Does this RIB info-model work will for read query and write query
for small number of routes (1-10 routes)?

2)      Does this RIB info-model work for a large number of routes 100,000
routes?  

3)      Is the next-hop methodology support everything you wish in the I2RS
RIB? 

4)      The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure encrypted transport.
Does this information model need to have any portion of the model available
over an insecure transport? 

 

Sue Hares 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>This =
begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07.txt. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;You can obtain the document by going to: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/">=
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/</a><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The question you should consider: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
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!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work will for read =
query and write query for small number of routes (1-10 =
routes)?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span =
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</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work for a large number =
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</span></span><![endif]>Is the next-hop methodology support everything =
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!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure =
encrypted transport.&nbsp; Does this information model need to have any =
portion of the model available over an insecure transport? =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-01.txt - Is adopted
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Since we have not had any comments on the adoption of
draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-req-01.txt, this draft is adopted as a
WG draft.  The authors should submit this as
draft-iet-i2rs-security-environment-req-00.txt.

 

Sue Hares and Jeff Haas 


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draft-mglt-i2rs-security-environment-req-01.txt, this draft is adopted =
as a WG draft.&nbsp; The authors should submit this as =
draft-iet-i2rs-security-environment-req-00.txt.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
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Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:44:28 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 08:16:21PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: 
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  
> 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
> 
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  
> 
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
> 
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   
>

   Note: I2RS protocol design team is working to complete this set of
   minimal changes.

Has the design team produced any output that I can read to understand
how the changes to NETCONF and YANG are supposed to work?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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Juergen: 

Not the official design team from NETCONF/I2RS.  An initial strawman ideas
from Andy and Kent will be presented today at I2RS Interim. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 2:44 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; i2rs@ietf.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

On Tue, Oct 06, 2015 at 08:16:21PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for
I2RS: 
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
> 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
> 
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  
> 
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015
interim.
> 
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   
>

   Note: I2RS protocol design team is working to complete this set of
   minimal changes.

Has the design team produced any output that I can read to understand how
the changes to NETCONF and YANG are supposed to work?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Subject: Re: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Jeffrey: 

 

to start this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer
that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was designed.

 

.         All I2RS RIB information is intended config (see
ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat for the
definition of intended config), 

.         nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, and inserted into the
I2RS agent, 

.         the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemeral state, and provides
back status (installed, not installed). 

 

nexthop id  allows for all types of next hops (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6,
mac-address, interface tunnels) to be indicated  with a single id that can
be directly accessed.  This allows these different types of next-hop to be
directly referenced with the nexthop-id. 

 

As to protection,  Let's base our discussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 (see
below) 

 

The protection id - identifies of preference, nexthop-id.  Preference ID
identifies the tuple.   You might have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.  

 

Protection-id 1:  preference=10, nexthop-id=1

Protection-id 2:  preference = 2, nexthop-id=1

Protection-id 3:  preference=1, nexthop-id = 1

Protection-id 4: preference =1, nexthop-id=2 

 

I do not understand how the protection-id should be linked by nexthop. 

 

Sue 

======================

I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for your reference: 

----------------------------

 

<nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> <1> <interface-primary>

                                   <2> <interface-backup>)

 

Derived as follows: 

 

<nexthop> ::= <nexthop-protection>
<nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>
                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>)...)
<nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>
                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>))
<nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> ((<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>
                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>))
<nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <interface-primary>
                      (<2> <interface-backup>))

 

Traffic can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and a
single backup.  In such a case, the nexthop will look like:
 
   <nexthop> ::= <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1>
                 (<NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE>
                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>
                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>) ...))
                   <2> <nexthop-base>)

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui)
Zhang
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id

 

Hi,

 

Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop-id, but neither specifies
who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point that out?

 

It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs could be allocated by routers
(servers) or could be allocated by clients. Different ID spaces would be
used depending on who allocates the IDs.

 

Related to the above, a specific question on the data model:

 

  grouping nexthop {

    leaf nexthop-id {

      mandatory true;

      type uint32;

    }

    choice nexthop-type {

       ...

       case nexthop-protection {

        list nexthop-protection-list {

            key "nexthop-protection-id"; 

            leaf nexthop-protection-id {

              mandatory true;

              type uint32;

            }

           leaf nexthop-preference {

             ...

           }

           leaf nexthop {

             mandatory true;

             type nexthop-ref;

           }

        }

      }

 

Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list it requires a key and we
defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which I assume the controller
needs to assign and both the controller and the router needs to remember.
The list entry has a member "nexthop" which is a nexthop-ref, which is a
nexthop-id:

 

  typedef nexthop-ref {

    type leafref {

      path  "/i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list" +

            "/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:nexthop-id";

    }

  }

 

So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as the key?

 

Thanks.

 

Jeffrey

 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Jeffrey: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>to =
start this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer =
that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was =
designed.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>All I2RS RIB information is intended =
config (see ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or =
ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat for the definition of intended config), =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS =
client, and inserted into the I2RS agent, <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB =
ephemeral state, and provides back status (installed, not installed). =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>nexthop id &nbsp;allows for all types of next hops =
(chains, inet-v4, inet-v6, mac-address, interface tunnels) to be =
indicated &nbsp;with a single id that can be directly accessed.&nbsp; =
This allows these different types of next-hop to be directly referenced =
with the nexthop-id. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>As to =
protection, &nbsp;Let&#8217;s base our discussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 =
(see below) <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>The =
protection id &#8211; identifies of preference, nexthop-id.&nbsp; =
Preference ID identifies the tuple. &nbsp;&nbsp;You might have multiple =
tuples with a nexthop-id.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Protection-id 1:&nbsp; preference=3D10, =
nexthop-id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Protection-id 2: =
&nbsp;preference =3D 2, nexthop-id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Protection-id 3: &nbsp;preference=3D1, nexthop-id =
=3D 1<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Protection-id 4: preference =
=3D1, nexthop-id=3D2 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I do =
not understand how the protection-id should be linked by nexthop. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Sue <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for =
your reference: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>----------------------------<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; =
&lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backup&gt;)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Derived as follows: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D =
&lt;nexthop-protection&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; =
(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; =
&lt;nexthop&gt;)...)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; =
(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; =
&lt;nexthop&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; =
((&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; =
&lt;nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; =
&lt;nexthop-base&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; =
(&lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; (&lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backup&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span style=3D'color:black'>Traffic =
can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and =
a<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>single backup.&nbsp; In such a case, the nexthop =
will look like:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D =
&lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(&lt;NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; =
&lt;nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;) =
...))<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'page-break-before:always'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; =
&lt;nexthop-base&gt;)<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: i2rs =
[mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) =
Zhang<br>Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM<br>To: =
i2rs@ietf.org<br>Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: =
nexthop-id</p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Both =
the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop-id, but neither specifies =
who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point that =
out?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs could =
be allocated by routers (servers) or could be allocated by clients. =
Different ID spaces would be used depending on who allocates the =
IDs.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Related to the above, a specific question on the =
data model:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp; =
grouping nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-id =
{<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type =
uint32;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; choice =
nexthop-type {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
...<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; case =
nexthop-protection {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; list =
nexthop-protection-list {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; key &quot;nexthop-protection-id&quot;; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;leaf nexthop-protection-id {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-preference {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; leaf nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type nexthop-ref;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list =
it requires a key and we defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, =
which I assume the controller needs to assign and both the controller =
and the router needs to remember. The list entry has a member =
&quot;nexthop&quot; which is a nexthop-ref, which is a =
nexthop-id:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp; =
typedef nexthop-ref {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type leafref {<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; path&nbsp; =
&quot;/i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list&quot; =
+<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:nexthop-id&quot;;<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>So - =
why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as the key?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>i2rs mailing list<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>i2rs@ietf.org</span></a><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/i2rs</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Hi Sue,

Before I posted the questions, I searched "nexthop-id" in the IM draft and =
did not find anything definition; then this morning I found the following:

   Nexthops can be identified by an identifier to create a level of
   indirection.  The identifier is set by the RIB manager and returned
   to the external entity on request.

Is the above "identifier" the same as "nexthop-id"? If yes, then it conflic=
ts with your text below?

Jeffrey

From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:01 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id


Jeffrey:



to start this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer=
 that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was designed.



*        All I2RS RIB information is intended config (see ietf-chairs-netmo=
d-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat for the definition of in=
tended config),

*        nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, and inserted into the I=
2RS agent,

*        the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemeral state, and provides=
 back status (installed, not installed).



nexthop id  allows for all types of next hops (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6, ma=
c-address, interface tunnels) to be indicated  with a single id that can be=
 directly accessed.  This allows these different types of next-hop to be di=
rectly referenced with the nexthop-id.



As to protection,  Let's base our discussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 (see belo=
w)



The protection id - identifies of preference, nexthop-id.  Preference ID id=
entifies the tuple.   You might have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.



Protection-id 1:  preference=3D10, nexthop-id=3D1

Protection-id 2:  preference =3D 2, nexthop-id=3D1

Protection-id 3:  preference=3D1, nexthop-id =3D 1

Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=3D2



I do not understand how the protection-id should be linked by nexthop.



Sue

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for your reference:

----------------------------


<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> <1> <interface-primary>
                                   <2> <interface-backup>)



Derived as follows:



<nexthop> ::=3D <nexthop-protection>

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>)...)

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>))

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> ((<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>))

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <interface-primary>

                      (<2> <interface-backup>))



Traffic can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and a

single backup.  In such a case, the nexthop will look like:



   <nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1>

                 (<NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE>

                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>

                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>) ...))

                   <2> <nexthop-base>)





-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zh=
ang
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id



Hi,



Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop-id, but neither specifies=
 who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point that out?



It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs could be allocated by routers=
 (servers) or could be allocated by clients. Different ID spaces would be u=
sed depending on who allocates the IDs.



Related to the above, a specific question on the data model:



  grouping nexthop {

    leaf nexthop-id {

      mandatory true;

      type uint32;

    }

    choice nexthop-type {

       ...

       case nexthop-protection {

        list nexthop-protection-list {

            key "nexthop-protection-id";

            leaf nexthop-protection-id {

              mandatory true;

              type uint32;

            }

           leaf nexthop-preference {

             ...

           }

           leaf nexthop {

             mandatory true;

             type nexthop-ref;

           }

        }

      }



Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list it requires a key and we =
defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which I assume the controller ne=
eds to assign and both the controller and the router needs to remember. The=
 list entry has a member "nexthop" which is a nexthop-ref, which is a nexth=
op-id:



  typedef nexthop-ref {

    type leafref {

      path  "/i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list" +

            "/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:nexthop-id";

    }

  }



So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as the key?



Thanks.



Jeffrey



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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Sue,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Before I posted the qu=
estions, I searched &#8220;nexthop-id&#8221; in the IM draft and did not fi=
nd anything definition; then this morning I found the following:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Nexthops can be identified by an =
identifier to create a level of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; indirection.&nbsp; The identifier=
 is set by the RIB manager and returned<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; to the external entity on request=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Is the above &#8220;identifier&#8221; the same as &#8220;nexthop-id&#=
8221;? If yes, then it conflicts with your text below?<o:p></o:p></span></a=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] <b=
r>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;zzhang@juniper.net&gt;; i2rs@ietf.or=
g<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Jeffrey: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">to start this discussion going, I would like to p=
rovide you with the answer that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Mod=
el was designed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>All I2RS RIB information is intended config =
(see ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat fo=
r the definition of intended config),
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, a=
nd inserted into the I2RS agent,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemer=
al state, and provides back status (installed, not installed).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">nexthop id &nbsp;allows for all types of next hop=
s (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6, mac-address, interface tunnels) to be indicate=
d &nbsp;with a single id that can be directly accessed.&nbsp; This allows t=
hese different types of next-hop to be directly referenced
 with the nexthop-id. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">As to protection, &nbsp;Let&#8217;s base our disc=
ussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 (see below)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The protection id &#8211; identifies of preferenc=
e, nexthop-id.&nbsp; Preference ID identifies the tuple. &nbsp;&nbsp;You mi=
ght have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 1:&nbsp; preference=3D10, nexthop-i=
d=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 2: &nbsp;preference =3D 2, nexthop-=
id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 3: &nbsp;preference=3D1, nexthop-id=
 =3D 1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=3D2 =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I do not understand how the protection-id should =
be linked by nexthop.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sue <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for your reference: <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">----------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">&lt;nexthop=
&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; &lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&gt;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backup&=
gt;)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Derived as follows: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-protection&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;n=
exthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop&gt;)...)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;n=
exthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; ((&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;=
nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop-base&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backu=
p&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">Traffic=
 can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and a<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">single =
backup.&nbsp; In such a case, the nexthop will look like:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;) ...))=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;)<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop=
-id, but neither specifies who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point =
that out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs cou=
ld be allocated by routers (servers) or could be allocated by clients. Diff=
erent ID spaces would be used depending on who allocates the IDs.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Related to the above, a specific question on the =
data model:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; grouping nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-id {<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; choice nexthop-type {<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; case nexthop=
-protection {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; list n=
exthop-protection-list {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; key &quot;nexthop-protection-id&quot;; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;leaf nexthop-protection-id {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-preference {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type nexthop-ref;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list=
 it requires a key and we defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which =
I assume the controller needs to assign and both the controller and the rou=
ter needs to remember. The list entry
 has a member &quot;nexthop&quot; which is a nexthop-ref, which is a nextho=
p-id:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; typedef nexthop-ref {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type leafref {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; path&nbsp; &quot;/=
i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list&quot; &#43;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:next=
hop-id&quot;;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as th=
e key?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">i2rs mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org"><span style=3D"c=
olor:windowtext;text-decoration:none">i2rs@ietf.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
i2rs"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : I2RS Environment Security Requirements
        Authors         : Daniel Migault
                          Joel Halpern
                          Susan Hares
	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2015-10-07

Abstract:
   This document provides environment security requirements for the I2RS
   architecture.  Environment security requirements are independent of
   the protocol used for I2RS.  As a result, the requirements provided
   in this document are intended to provide good security practise so
   I2RS can be securely deployed and operated.

   These security requirements are designated as environment security
   requirements as opposed to the protocol security requirements.  The
   reason to have separate document is that protocol security
   requirements are intended to help the design of the I2RS protocol
   whether the environment requirements are rather intended for
   deployment or implementations.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-security-environment-reqs/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-security-environment-reqs-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Wed Oct  7 08:43:07 2015
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents  (10/6 to 10/20/2015)  -
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Support.

Linda

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS:

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requireme=
nts/

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

Sue Hares


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Support. <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Linda<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [ma=
ilto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015)=
 -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirem=
ent documents for I2RS:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-ephemeral-state/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ep=
hemeral-state/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This section is blank and this will be discussed at =
the 10/17/2015 interim.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will discuss whether this section should be kept =
or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.tx=
t <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2=
rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-traceability/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-trace=
ability/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From nobody Wed Oct  7 08:43:41 2015
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From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Support,

Linda

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:36 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Nitin Bahadur'; sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com
Subject: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/=
20/2015)

This begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07.txt.   You =
can obtain the document by going to:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/

The question you should consider:


1)      Does this RIB info-model work will for read query and write query f=
or small number of routes (1-10 routes)?

2)      Does this RIB info-model work for a large number of routes 100,000 =
routes?

3)      Is the next-hop methodology support everything you wish in the I2RS=
 RIB?

4)      The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure encrypted transport=
.  Does this information model need to have any portion of the model availa=
ble over an insecure transport?

Sue Hares

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Support, <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Linda<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [ma=
ilto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nitin Bahadur'; sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6=
 to 10/20/2015)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-in=
fo-model-07.txt. &nbsp;&nbsp;You can obtain the document by going to:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-rib-info-model/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib=
-info-model/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question you should consider: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work will for read query a=
nd write query for small number of routes (1-10 routes)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work for a large number of=
 routes 100,000 routes?&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Is the next-hop methodology support everything you =
wish in the I2RS RIB?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure enc=
rypted transport.&nbsp; Does this information model need to have any portio=
n of the model available over an insecure transport?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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I have following questions/comments. I'll have a separate email on Sue's qu=
estion 3).


   When writing an object to a RIB, the external entity SHOULD try to

   write all dependencies of the object prior to sending that object.

   The data-model MUST support requesting identifiers for nexthops and

   collecting the identifiers back in the response.



Apparently this is different from Sue's understanding (see other email thre=
ad "RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id", so this needs to=
 be straightened out.



   The RIB data-model SHOULD support

   a way to optionally receive a nexthop identifier for a given nexthop.



Earlier it says "MUST" and now it's "SHOULD".



2.4.3.  Nexthop content



   At the lowest level, a nexthop can be one of:

   o  identifier: This is an identifier returned by the network device

      representing another nexthop or another nexthop chain.



"or another nexthop chain" should be removed. "another nexthop" covers ever=
ything.



   o  tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel or

      MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.  An optional

      egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to

      send the packet out on.  The egress interface is useful when the

      network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to

      perform address resolution for the IP packet.



I don't think an egress interface should be part of the tunnel encap. The e=
gress interface and optionally a nbr address should be in a separate chain =
member.



2.4.3's title is "nexthop content" but it focuses on nexthops at the "lowes=
t level". 2.4.4 is about "special nexthops" and that should be folded into =
2.4.3 (since special nexthops are at the "lowest level").



       <match> ::=3D <route-type> (<ipv4-route> | <ipv6-route> | <mpls-rout=
e> |

                           <mac-route> | <interface-route>)

       <match> ::=3D <IPV4> <ipv4-route> | <IPV6> <ipv6-route> |

             <MPLS> <MPLS_LABEL> | <IEEE_MAC> <MAC_ADDRESS> |

             <INTERFACE> <INTERFACE_IDENTIFIER>



We have two rules for <match> here. They are equivalent and one should be r=
emoved.



       <ip-route-type> ::=3D <SRC> | <DEST> | <DEST_SRC>



Is there a real need for <src> routes? What's the real difference between <=
src> and <dest> routes?



    <nexthop-base> ::=3D <nexthop-special> | <nexthop-chain>





    <nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...

    <nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |

                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>



When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between=
 <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier?



    <nexthop-chain-member> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member-identifier> |

                <EGRESS_INTERFACE> |

                <ipv4-address> | <ipv6-address> |

                (<EGRESS_INTERFACE> (<ipv4-address> | <ipv6-address>)) |

                (<EGRESS_INTERFACE> <IEEE_MAC_ADDRESS>) |

                (<tunnel-encap> [<EGRESS_INTERFACE>]) |

                <logical-tunnel> |

                <RIB_NAME>)



The above model makes it that even the very basic nexthops are defined thro=
ugh nexthop-chain - unnecessary twist and it leads to unnatural representat=
ion when it comes to the data model (e.g. the chain is a list and each list=
 entry has a client-assigned ID as key).



As section 2.4.2 alluded to, all the above "nexthop-chain-member" are just =
basic nexthops shoulder to shoulder with "nexthop-special". Therefore, the =
following model would be more natural?



  <nexthop> ::=3D <nexthop-base> |

                <nexthop-chain> |      <-- new

                <nexthop-replicate> |

                <nexthop-lb> |

                <nexthop-protection>



  <nexthop-base> ::=3D <nexthop-special> |

                     <nexthop-identifier> |

                     <egress-interface> |

                     ...

                     <logical-tunnel> |

                     <RIB_NAME>



  <nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop>...



-----------------------------



<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)

<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]

                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |

                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])



<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?



-----------------------------



   A backup can also have another backup.  In such a case, the list will

   look like:



   <nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <nexthop>

                 <2> <nexthop> <3> <nexthop>)



Unless it meant "A PRIMAY can also have another backup", shouldn't the abov=
e be the following?



      <nexthop> :: =3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <nexthhop> <2> <NEXTHOP_PR=
OTECTION>(<1> <nexthop> <2> <nexhop>))

Jeffrey

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 8:36 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Nitin Bahadur' <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>; sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com
Subject: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/=
20/2015)

This begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07.txt.   You =
can obtain the document by going to:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/

The question you should consider:


1)      Does this RIB info-model work will for read query and write query f=
or small number of routes (1-10 routes)?

2)      Does this RIB info-model work for a large number of routes 100,000 =
routes?

3)      Is the next-hop methodology support everything you wish in the I2RS=
 RIB?

4)      The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure encrypted transport=
.  Does this information model need to have any portion of the model availa=
ble over an insecure transport?

Sue Hares

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have following quest=
ions/comments. I&#8217;ll have a separate email on Sue&#8217;s question 3).=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; When writing an object to a RIB, the=
 external entity SHOULD try to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; write all dependencies of the object=
 prior to sending that object.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; The data-model MUST support requesti=
ng identifiers for nexthops and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; collecting the identifiers back in t=
he response.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Apparently this is different from Sue&#8217;s under=
standing (see other email thread &#8220;RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data
 model questions: nexthop-id&#8221;, so this needs to be straightened out.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; The RIB data-model SHOULD support<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; a way to optionally receive a nextho=
p identifier for a given nexthop.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Earlier it says &#8=
220;MUST&#8221; and now it&#8217;s &#8220;SHOULD&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">2.4.3.&nbsp; Nexthop content<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; At the lowest level, a nexthop can b=
e one of:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; identifier: This is an ident=
ifier returned by the network device<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; representing anoth=
er nexthop or another nexthop chain.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&#8220;or another nexthop chain&#8221; should be re=
moved. &#8220;another nexthop&#8221; covers everything.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; tunnel encap: This can be an=
 encap representing an IP tunnel or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MPLS tunnel or oth=
ers as defined in this document.&nbsp; An optional<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; egress interface c=
an be specified to indicate which interface to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; send the packet ou=
t on.&nbsp; The egress interface is useful when the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; network device con=
tains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; perform address re=
solution for the IP packet.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">I don&#8217;t think an egress interface should be p=
art of the tunnel encap. The egress interface and optionally
 a nbr address should be in a separate chain member.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">2.4.3&#8217;s title is &#8220;nexthop content&#8221=
; but it focuses on nexthops at the &#8220;lowest level&#8221;. 2.4.4 is ab=
out
 &#8220;special nexthops&#8221; and that should be folded into 2.4.3 (since=
 special nexthops are at the &#8220;lowest level&#8221;).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;match&gt=
; ::=3D &lt;route-type&gt; (&lt;ipv4-route&gt; | &lt;ipv6-route&gt; | &lt;m=
pls-route&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mac-route&gt; | &lt;interface-route&gt=
;)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;match&gt=
; ::=3D &lt;IPV4&gt; &lt;ipv4-route&gt; | &lt;IPV6&gt; &lt;ipv6-route&gt; |=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;MPLS&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; | &lt;IEEE_MAC&gt; =
&lt;MAC_ADDRESS&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;INTERFACE&gt; &lt;INTERFACE_IDENTIFIER&gt;<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">We have two rules for &lt;match&gt; here. They are =
equivalent and one should be removed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ip-route=
-type&gt; ::=3D &lt;SRC&gt; | &lt;DEST&gt; | &lt;DEST_SRC&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Is there a real need for &lt;src&gt; routes? What&#=
8217;s the real difference between &lt;src&gt; and &lt;dest&gt; routes?<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-base&gt; ::=3D &lt=
;nexthop-special&gt; | &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &l=
t;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain-identifier&g=
t; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;NEXTHOP_=
CHAIN_ID&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">When would you use &quot;chain_name&quot;? What's t=
he difference/relationship between &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; and
 nexthop-identifier?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; :=
:=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member-identifier&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; |<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ipv4-address&gt; | &lt;ipv6-a=
ddress&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; (&lt;ip=
v4-address&gt; | &lt;ipv6-address&gt;)) |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; &lt;IEE=
E_MAC_ADDRESS&gt;) |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;tunnel-encap&gt; [&lt;EGRESS=
_INTERFACE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;logical-tunnel&gt; |<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;RIB_NAME&gt;)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">The above model mak=
es it that even the very basic nexthops are defined through nexthop-chain &=
#8211; unnecessary twist and it leads to unnatural
 representation when it comes to the data model (e.g. the chain is a list a=
nd each list entry has a client-assigned ID as key).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">As section 2.4.2 al=
luded to, all the above &#8220;nexthop-chain-member&#8221; are just basic n=
exthops shoulder to shoulder with &#8220;nexthop-special&#8221;.
 Therefore, the following model would be more natural?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&=
gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-base&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt=
;nexthop-chain&gt; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;-- new<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt=
;nexthop-replicate&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt=
;nexthop-lb&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt=
;nexthop-protection&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-=
base&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-special&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-identifier&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;egress-interface&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;logical-tunnel&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;RIB_NAME&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-=
chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop&gt;&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&lt;mpls-header&gt; ::=3D (&lt;mpls-label-operati=
on&gt; ...)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ::=3D (&lt;MPLS_PUSH=
&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&gt;]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS_VALUE&gt;] [&lt;TTL_VALUE&g=
t;]) |<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPLS_POP&gt; [&lt;TTL_ACTION&gt=
;])<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&lt;mpls-header&gt;=
 is part of &lt;tunnel-encap&gt; - so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; A backup can also have another backu=
p.&nbsp; In such a case, the list will<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; look like:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PR=
OTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt; &=
lt;3&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Unless it meant &#8220;A PRIMAY can also have anoth=
er backup&#8221;, shouldn&#8217;t the above be the following?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; :: =
=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthhop&gt; &lt;2&gt; &lt;NE=
XTHOP_PROTECTION&gt;(&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;
 &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexhop&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 8:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Nitin Bahadur' &lt;nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com&gt;; sriganesh.kini@=
ericsson.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6=
 to 10/20/2015)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-in=
fo-model-07.txt. &nbsp;&nbsp;You can obtain the document by going to:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-rib-info-model/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib=
-info-model/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question you should consider: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work will for read query a=
nd write query for small number of routes (1-10 routes)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Does this RIB info-model work for a large number of=
 routes 100,000 routes?&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Is the next-hop methodology support everything you =
wish in the I2RS RIB?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4)<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>The default mode for I2RS transport is a secure enc=
rypted transport.&nbsp; Does this information model need to have any portio=
n of the model available over an insecure transport?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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Sue,


> The protection id - identifies of preference, nexthop-id.  Preference ID =
identifies the tuple.   You might have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.

>

> Protection-id 1:  preference=3D10, nexthop-id=3D1

> Protection-id 2:  preference =3D 2, nexthop-id=3D1

> Protection-id 3:  preference=3D1, nexthop-id =3D 1

> Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=3D2



Why would we have the first three tuples with the same nexthop-id?



Assuming that each tuple has a different nexthop-id. For nexthop-lb, nextho=
p-protection, and nexthop-replicate, the order of each tuple would not matt=
er (ordered-by-system). Why bother using an additional protection/lb/replic=
ate-id as the key?



Using a client-assigned ID as the protection/lb/replicate-id means a router=
 will have to store it, and be able find the tuple given that ID. I'd rathe=
r using the nexthop-id for the purpose?



Jeffrey

From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:51 AM
To: 'Susan Hares' <shares@ndzh.com>; i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id

Hi Sue,

Before I posted the questions, I searched "nexthop-id" in the IM draft and =
did not find anything definition; then this morning I found the following:

   Nexthops can be identified by an identifier to create a level of
   indirection.  The identifier is set by the RIB manager and returned
   to the external entity on request.

Is the above "identifier" the same as "nexthop-id"? If yes, then it conflic=
ts with your text below?

Jeffrey

From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:01 AM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>>=
; i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id


Jeffrey:



to start this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer=
 that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was designed.



*        All I2RS RIB information is intended config (see ietf-chairs-netmo=
d-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat for the definition of in=
tended config),

*        nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, and inserted into the I=
2RS agent,

*        the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemeral state, and provides=
 back status (installed, not installed).



nexthop id  allows for all types of next hops (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6, ma=
c-address, interface tunnels) to be indicated  with a single id that can be=
 directly accessed.  This allows these different types of next-hop to be di=
rectly referenced with the nexthop-id.



As to protection,  Let's base our discussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 (see belo=
w)



The protection id - identifies of preference, nexthop-id.  Preference ID id=
entifies the tuple.   You might have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.



Protection-id 1:  preference=3D10, nexthop-id=3D1

Protection-id 2:  preference =3D 2, nexthop-id=3D1

Protection-id 3:  preference=3D1, nexthop-id =3D 1

Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=3D2



I do not understand how the protection-id should be linked by nexthop.



Sue

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for your reference:

----------------------------


<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> <1> <interface-primary>
                                   <2> <interface-backup>)



Derived as follows:



<nexthop> ::=3D <nexthop-protection>

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>)...)

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop>))

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> ((<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>

                      (<NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE> <nexthop-base>))

<nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <interface-primary>

                      (<2> <interface-backup>))



Traffic can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and a

single backup.  In such a case, the nexthop will look like:



   <nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1>

                 (<NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE>

                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>

                  (<NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT> <nexthop-base>) ...))

                   <2> <nexthop-base>)





-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zh=
ang
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id



Hi,



Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop-id, but neither specifies=
 who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point that out?



It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs could be allocated by routers=
 (servers) or could be allocated by clients. Different ID spaces would be u=
sed depending on who allocates the IDs.



Related to the above, a specific question on the data model:



  grouping nexthop {

    leaf nexthop-id {

      mandatory true;

      type uint32;

    }

    choice nexthop-type {

       ...

       case nexthop-protection {

        list nexthop-protection-list {

            key "nexthop-protection-id";

            leaf nexthop-protection-id {

              mandatory true;

              type uint32;

            }

           leaf nexthop-preference {

             ...

           }

           leaf nexthop {

             mandatory true;

             type nexthop-ref;

           }

        }

      }



Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list it requires a key and we =
defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which I assume the controller ne=
eds to assign and both the controller and the router needs to remember. The=
 list entry has a member "nexthop" which is a nexthop-ref, which is a nexth=
op-id:



  typedef nexthop-ref {

    type leafref {

      path  "/i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list" +

            "/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:nexthop-id";

    }

  }



So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as the key?



Thanks.



Jeffrey



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i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sue,<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose">&gt; The protection i=
d &#8211; identifies of preference, nexthop-id.&nbsp; Preference ID identif=
ies the tuple. &nbsp;&nbsp;You might have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id=
.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Protection-id 1:&nbsp; preference=3D10, next=
hop-id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Protection-id 2: &nbsp;preference =3D 2, nex=
thop-id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Protection-id 3: &nbsp;preference=3D1, nexth=
op-id =3D 1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=
=3D2 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Why would we have t=
he first three tuples with the same nexthop-id?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Assuming that each =
tuple has a different nexthop-id. For nexthop-lb, nexthop-protection, and n=
exthop-replicate, the order of each
 tuple would not matter (ordered-by-system). Why bother using an additional=
 protection/lb/replicate-id as the key?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Using a client-assi=
gned ID as the protection/lb/replicate-id means a router will have to store=
 it, and be able find the tuple given
 that ID. I&#8217;d rather using the nexthop-id for the purpose?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Susan Hares' &lt;shares@ndzh.com&gt;; i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Sue,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Before I posted the qu=
estions, I searched &#8220;nexthop-id&#8221; in the IM draft and did not fi=
nd anything definition; then this morning I found the following:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Nexthops can be identified by an =
identifier to create a level of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; indirection.&nbsp; The identifier=
 is set by the RIB manager and returned<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; to the external entity on request=
.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Is the above &#8220;id=
entifier&#8221; the same as &#8220;nexthop-id&#8221;? If yes, then it confl=
icts with your text below?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Susan Hares [<a href=3D"mailto:shares@n=
dzh.com">mailto:shares@ndzh.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 07, 2015 8:01 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.net=
">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Jeffrey: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">to start this discussion going, I would like to p=
rovide you with the answer that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Mod=
el was designed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>All I2RS RIB information is intended config =
(see ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat fo=
r the definition of intended config),
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, a=
nd inserted into the I2RS agent,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemer=
al state, and provides back status (installed, not installed).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">nexthop id &nbsp;allows for all types of next hop=
s (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6, mac-address, interface tunnels) to be indicate=
d &nbsp;with a single id that can be directly accessed.&nbsp; This allows t=
hese different types of next-hop to be directly referenced
 with the nexthop-id. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">As to protection, &nbsp;Let&#8217;s base our disc=
ussion on I2RS RIB IM p. 19 (see below)
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The protection id &#8211; identifies of preferenc=
e, nexthop-id.&nbsp; Preference ID identifies the tuple. &nbsp;&nbsp;You mi=
ght have multiple tuples with a nexthop-id.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 1:&nbsp; preference=3D10, nexthop-i=
d=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 2: &nbsp;preference =3D 2, nexthop-=
id=3D1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 3: &nbsp;preference=3D1, nexthop-id=
 =3D 1<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Protection-id 4: preference =3D1, nexthop-id=3D2 =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I do not understand how the protection-id should =
be linked by nexthop.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sue <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I2RS RIB IM p. 19 for your reference: <o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">----------------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">&lt;nexthop=
&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; &lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&gt;<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backup&=
gt;)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Derived as follows: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-protection&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;n=
exthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop&gt;)...)<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;n=
exthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; ((&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &lt;=
nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(&lt;NEXTHOP_PREFERENCE&gt; &l=
t;nexthop-base&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;nex=
thop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;interface-primary&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;2&gt; &lt;interface-backu=
p&gt;))<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">Traffic=
 can be load-balanced among multiple primary nexthops and a<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">single =
backup.&nbsp; In such a case, the nexthop will look like:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LOAD_BALANCE&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;<o:p></=
o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;NEXTHOP_LB_WEIGHT&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;) ...))=
<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexthop-base&gt;)<o:p></o:p></span=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang<br>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2015 9:59 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Both the RIB info and data model mentions nexthop=
-id, but neither specifies who manages/assigns the ID. Can the specs point =
that out?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">It seems that it could be both ways - the IDs cou=
ld be allocated by routers (servers) or could be allocated by clients. Diff=
erent ID spaces would be used depending on who allocates the IDs.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Related to the above, a specific question on the =
data model:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; grouping nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-id {<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; choice nexthop-type {<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; case nexthop=
-protection {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; list n=
exthop-protection-list {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; key &quot;nexthop-protection-id&quot;; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;leaf nexthop-protection-id {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-preference {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type nexthop-ref;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Here a nexthop-protection is a list. Being a list=
 it requires a key and we defined this uint32 nexthop-protection-id, which =
I assume the controller needs to assign and both the controller and the rou=
ter needs to remember. The list entry
 has a member &quot;nexthop&quot; which is a nexthop-ref, which is a nextho=
p-id:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; typedef nexthop-ref {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type leafref {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; path&nbsp; &quot;/=
i2rs-rib:routing-instance/i2rs-rib:rib-list&quot; &#43;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;/i2rs-rib:route-list/i2rs-rib:nexthop/i2rs-rib:next=
hop-id&quot;;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">So - why can't we use the nexthop-id itself as th=
e key?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">i2rs mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org"><span style=3D"c=
olor:windowtext;text-decoration:none">i2rs@ietf.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
i2rs"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 17:04:42 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "'Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang'" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Message-ID: <D23AFFBA.2FE2E%nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id
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The IM draft was written with the intent as in the draft. In other words,
the <nexthop-id> space is private to the I2RS agent. The agent allocates
nexthop-id and returns that to the Client. The client can use that as a
convenience. The client itself can maintain a global ID space across all
agents if it desires. But that is outside the scope of the IM draft.


> Nexthops can be identified by an identifier to create a level of
   indirection.  The identifier is set by the RIB manager and returned
   to the external entity on request.
=20
> Is the above =B3identifier=B2 the same as =B3nexthop-id=B2? If yes, then it confl=
icts
with your text below?

From:  Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date:  Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 5:01 AM
To:  "'Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang'" <zzhang@juniper.net>, <i2rs@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id

Jeffrey:=20
=20
to start this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer
that was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was designed.
=20
=B7         All I2RS RIB information is intended config (see
ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-openconfig-netmod-opstat for the
definition of intended config),
=B7         nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, and inserted into the
I2RS agent,=20
=B7         the I2RS agent installs the I2RS RIB ephemeral state, and provide=
s
back status (installed, not installed).
=20
nexthop id  allows for all types of next hops (chains, inet-v4, inet-v6,
mac-address, interface tunnels) to be indicated  with a single id that can
be directly accessed.  This allows these different types of next-hop to be
directly referenced with the nexthop-id.
=20



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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div><br></div><div>The IM draft w=
as written with the intent as in the draft. In other words, the &lt;nexthop-=
id&gt; space is private to the I2RS agent. The agent allocates nexthop-id an=
d returns that to the Client. The client can use that as a convenience. The =
client itself can maintain a global ID space across all agents if it desires=
. But that is outside the scope of the IM draft.</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&gt; Nexthops can=
 be identified by an identifier to create a level of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; indirection.&nbsp; =
The identifier is set by the RIB manager and returned<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; to the external en=
tity on request.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a name=3D=
"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&gt; Is the above &=
#8220;identifier&#8221; the same as &#8220;nexthop-id&#8221;? If yes, then i=
t conflicts with your text below?</span></a></p></div><div><br></div><span i=
d=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; te=
xt-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium =
none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP=
: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@nd=
zh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </sp=
an> Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 5:01 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=
To: </span> "'Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang'" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zzhang@juniper.n=
et">zzhang@juniper.net</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [i2rs] R=
IB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id<br></div><div><br></div><div xmlns:=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Jeffrey: <o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">to st=
art this discussion going, I would like to provide you with the answer that =
was given when the I2RS RIB Information Model was designed.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportL=
ists]--><span style=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font-styl=
e: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-h=
eight: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->All I2RS RIB informa=
tion is intended config (see ietf-chairs-netmod-opstate-reqs-01 or ietf-open=
config-netmod-opstat for the definition of intended config), <o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:=
l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D""><span style=3D"mso-lis=
t:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weigh=
t: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roma=
n';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><=
!--[endif]-->nexthop-id is assigned by the I2RS client, and inserted into th=
e I2RS agent, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span =
style=3D""><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; fon=
t-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;=
 font-family: 'Times New Roman';">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->the I2RS agent installs the I2RS R=
IB ephemeral state, and provides back status (installed, not installed). <o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainT=
ext">nexthop id &nbsp;allows for all types of next hops (chains, inet-v4, in=
et-v6, mac-address, interface tunnels) to be indicated &nbsp;with a single i=
d that can be directly accessed.&nbsp; This allows these different types of =
next-hop to be directly referenced with the nexthop-id. <o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span></body></ht=
ml>

--B_3527082287_47591179--



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Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 17:08:04 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Hi Jeffrey,

   Thanks for combing through this. I=B9ve addressed the discrepancies. See
NB> below.


> I have following questions/comments. I=B9ll have a separate email on Sue=B9s
question 3).
=20
   When writing an object to a RIB, the external entity SHOULD try to
   write all dependencies of the object prior to sending that object.
   The data-model MUST support requesting identifiers for nexthops and
   collecting the identifiers back in the response.
=20
Apparently this is different from Sue=B9s understanding (see other email
thread =B3RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/Data model questions: nexthop-id=B2, so this need=
s
to be straightened out.

NB> I sent my interpretation in a separate email.
=20
   The RIB data-model SHOULD support
   a way to optionally receive a nexthop identifier for a given nexthop.


Earlier it says =B3MUST=B2 and now it=B9s =B3SHOULD=B2.


NB> Will make it SHOULD in both places.
=20
=20
2.4.3.  Nexthop content
=20
   At the lowest level, a nexthop can be one of:
   o  identifier: This is an identifier returned by the network device
      representing another nexthop or another nexthop chain.
=20
=B3or another nexthop chain=B2 should be removed. =B3another nexthop=B2 covers
everything.
=20
NB> Fixed.

   o  tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel or
      MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.  An optional
      egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to
      send the packet out on.  The egress interface is useful when the
      network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to
      perform address resolution for the IP packet.
=20
I don=B9t think an egress interface should be part of the tunnel encap. The
egress interface and optionally a nbr address should be in a separate chain
member.

NB> The egress interface is =B3not=B2 part of the tunnel encap definition.
Tunnel-encap is defined as:

<tunnel-encap> ::=3D (<IPV4> <ipv4-header>) |
                   (<IPV6> <ipv6-header>) |
                   (<MPLS> <mpls-header>) |
                   (<GRE> <gre-header>) |
                   (<VXLAN> <vxlan-header>) |
                   (<NVGRE> <nvgre-header>)

What the above paragraph is referring to is the below statement in the
grammar:
<nexthop-chain-member> :: =8A
                                                   (<tunnel-encap>
[<EGRESS_INTERFACE>]) |

The goal here was to clearly specify what combination of options make sense=
.

=20

2.4.3=B9s title is =B3nexthop content=B2 but it focuses on nexthops at the =B3lowes=
t
level=B2. 2.4.4 is about =B3special nexthops=B2 and that should be folded into
2.4.3 (since special nexthops are at the =B3lowest level=B2).

NB> Even though special nexthops are at the lowest level, I feel it is
important to call out what the special nexthops are. I don=B9t think it
changes the content or organization of the draft if it is in a separate
sub-section.

=20
       <match> ::=3D <route-type> (<ipv4-route> | <ipv6-route> | <mpls-route>
|
                           <mac-route> | <interface-route>)
       <match> ::=3D <IPV4> <ipv4-route> | <IPV6> <ipv6-route> |
             <MPLS> <MPLS_LABEL> | <IEEE_MAC> <MAC_ADDRESS> |
             <INTERFACE> <INTERFACE_IDENTIFIER>
=20
We have two rules for <match> here. They are equivalent and one should be
removed.

NB> Yeah. This is a bug introduced in version -06 of the draft. I=B9ll remove
the first match condition.

 =20
       <ip-route-type> ::=3D <SRC> | <DEST> | <DEST_SRC>
=20
Is there a real need for <src> routes? What=B9s the real difference between
<src> and <dest> routes?
=20
NB> Source routes are useful for source-based routing. For example, route
all packets coming from 10.0.0.1/16 to somewhere. Dest routes are regular
routes based on where the packet is intended for. DEST_SRC routes are a
combination of the two.

    <nexthop-base> ::=3D <nexthop-special> | <nexthop-chain>
=20
=20
    <nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...
    <nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |
                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>
=20
When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between
<NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier?
=20
NB>  Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_NAME and CHAIN_ID were one and the same
thing. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is really something
like a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> that identifies a particular <nexthop>. I have
changed =B3nexthop-identifier=B2 to =B3nexthop identifier=B2 to remove confusion
that it is a special term. <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that identifies =
a
<nexthop-chain>.

<nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...

    <nexthop-chain-member> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member-identifier> |
                <EGRESS_INTERFACE> |
                <ipv4-address> | <ipv6-address> |
                (<EGRESS_INTERFACE> (<ipv4-address> | <ipv6-address>)) |
                (<EGRESS_INTERFACE> <IEEE_MAC_ADDRESS>) |
                (<tunnel-encap> [<EGRESS_INTERFACE>]) |
                <logical-tunnel> |
                <RIB_NAME>)
=20
The above model makes it that even the very basic nexthops are defined
through nexthop-chain =AD unnecessary twist and it leads to unnatural
representation when it comes to the data model (e.g. the chain is a list an=
d
each list entry has a client-assigned ID as key).
=20
As section 2.4.2 alluded to, all the above =B3nexthop-chain-member=B2 are just
basic nexthops shoulder to shoulder with =B3nexthop-special=B2. Therefore, the
following model would be more natural?
=20
  <nexthop> ::=3D <nexthop-base> |
                <nexthop-chain> |      <-- new
                <nexthop-replicate> |
                <nexthop-lb> |
                <nexthop-protection>
=20
  <nexthop-base> ::=3D <nexthop-special> |
                     <nexthop-identifier> |
                     <egress-interface> |
                     =8A
                     <logical-tunnel> |
                     <RIB_NAME>
=20
  <nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop>=8A
=20
NB> I=B9ll address this in a separate email.

-----------------------------
=20

<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)
<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]
                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |
                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])
=20
<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?
=20
NB> There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have
been to define <tunnel-decap>.

-----------------------------
=20
   A backup can also have another backup.  In such a case, the list will
   look like:
=20
   <nexthop> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <nexthop>
                 <2> <nexthop> <3> <nexthop>)
=20
Unless it meant =B3A PRIMAY can also have another backup=B2, shouldn=B9t the abov=
e
be the following?
=20
      <nexthop> :: =3D <NEXTHOP_PROTECTION> (<1> <nexthhop> <2>
<NEXTHOP_PROTECTION>(<1> <nexthop> <2> <nexhop>))

NB> Yes=8AFixed.
=20

Thanks
Nitin



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ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Hi Jeffrey,</div><div=
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0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">&nbsp; &nbsp;Thanks for combing through this. I&#821=
7;ve addressed the discrepancies. See NB&gt; below.</div><div style=3D"font-si=
ze: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div>=
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497=
D">&gt; I have following questions/comments. I&#8217;ll have a separate emai=
l on Sue&#8217;s question 3).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">=
&nbsp;&nbsp; When writing an object to a RIB, the external entity SHOULD try=
 to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; write all dependencie=
s of the object prior to sending that object.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPla=
inText">&nbsp;&nbsp; The data-model MUST support requesting identifiers for =
nexthops and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; collecting t=
he identifiers back in the response.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">Apparently this is different from S=
ue&#8217;s understanding (see other email thread &#8220;RE: [i2rs] RIB Info/=
Data
 model questions: nexthop-id&#8221;, so this needs to be straightened out.<=
/span></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; I sent=
 my interpretation in a separate email. &nbsp;</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_S=
ECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb=
(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:wor=
d" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://=
www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div =
class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; The RI=
B data-model SHOULD support<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; a way to optionally receive a nexthop identifier for a given nexthop.<o:p=
></o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size=
: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><s=
pan id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vm=
l" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-mi=
crosoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/1=
2/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue=
" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span sty=
le=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-f=
ill-alpha:100.0%">Earlier it says &#8220;MUST&#8221; and now it&#8217;s &#82=
20;SHOULD&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"=
font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><di=
v><br></div><div>NB&gt; Will make it SHOULD in both places.</div><div><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div></di=
v><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-co=
m:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"=
blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">2.4.3.&nbsp; Nexthop content<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">=
&nbsp;&nbsp; At the lowest level, a nexthop can be one of:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; identifier: This is an identifier =
returned by the network device<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; representing another nexthop or another nexthop chai=
n.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoP=
lainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, =
121);">&#8220;or another nexthop chain&#8221; should be removed. &#8220;anot=
her nexthop&#8221; covers everything.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlai=
nText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: =
14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; Fixed.<=
/div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: r=
gb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14=
px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"ur=
n:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:offic=
e" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.m=
icrosoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><d=
iv lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; tunnel encap: This can be an encap rep=
resenting an IP tunnel or<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.&nbsp; =
An optional<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; send the pack=
et out on.&nbsp; The egress interface is useful when the<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; network device contains Et=
hernet interfaces and one needs to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; perform address resolution for the IP packet.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainT=
ext"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);=
">I don&#8217;t think an egress interface should be part of the tunnel encap=
. The egress interface and optionally
 a nbr address should be in a separate chain member.</span></p></div></div>=
</div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; The egress interface is &#82=
20;not&#8221; part of the tunnel encap definition. Tunnel-encap is defined a=
s:</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color=
: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div>&lt;tunnel-encap&gt; ::=3D (&lt;IPV4&=
gt; &lt;ipv4-header&gt;) |&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(&lt;IPV6&gt; &lt;ipv6-header&gt;) |</di=
v><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
(&lt;MPLS&gt; &lt;mpls-header&gt;) |&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(&lt;GRE&gt; &lt;gre-header&gt=
;) |</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp;(&lt;VXLAN&gt; &lt;vxlan-header&gt;) |&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(&lt;NVGRE&gt; &lt;n=
vgre-header&gt;)</div></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">What the above parag=
raph is referring to is the below statement in the grammar:</div><div style=3D=
"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">&l=
t;nexthop-chain-member&gt; :: &#8230;</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;(&lt;tunnel-encap&gt; [&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt;]) |</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br><=
/div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"ur=
n:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:of=
fice:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D=
"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purpl=
e"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>The goal here was to clearly=
 specify what combination of options make sense.</o:p></span></p></div></div=
></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font=
-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xm=
lns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:off=
ice:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://=
schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-h=
tml40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1=
"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; col=
or: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div></span>=
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0,=
 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:sch=
emas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xm=
lns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.micros=
oft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78=
, 121);">2.4.3&#8217;s title is &#8220;nexthop content&#8221; but it focuses=
 on nexthops at the &#8220;lowest level&#8221;. 2.4.4 is about
 &#8220;special nexthops&#8221; and that should be folded into 2.4.3 (since=
 special nexthops are at the &#8220;lowest level&#8221;).</span></p></div></=
div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; Even though special next=
hops are at the lowest level, I feel it is important to call out what the sp=
ecial nexthops are. I don&#8217;t think it changes the content or organizati=
on of the draft if it is in a separate sub-section.</div><div style=3D"font-si=
ze: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div>=
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:=
vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-=
microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004=
/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainT=
ext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;match&gt; ::=3D &lt;route-type&g=
t; (&lt;ipv4-route&gt; | &lt;ipv6-route&gt; | &lt;mpls-route&gt; |<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mac-route&gt; | &lt;interface-route&gt=
;)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &lt;match&gt; ::=3D &lt;IPV4&gt; &lt;ipv4-route&gt; | &lt;IPV6&gt; &lt;ipv6-=
route&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;MPLS&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&g=
t; | &lt;IEEE_MAC&gt; &lt;MAC_ADDRESS&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlain=
Text">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &lt;INTERFACE&gt; &lt;INTERFACE_IDENTIFIER&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-s=
ize: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(31, 78, 121); font-size: 11pt;">We have two rules for &lt;mat=
ch&gt; here. They are equivalent and one should be removed.</span></div><div=
 style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">=
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-=
com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"=
http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/T=
R/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordS=
ection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>NB&gt; Yeah. This is a bug introduced =
in version -06 of the draft. I&#8217;ll remove the first match condition.</o=
:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SE=
CTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(=
0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas=
-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word=
" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://w=
ww.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div c=
lass=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> &nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"=
MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ip-route-type&gt; ::=3D=
 &lt;SRC&gt; | &lt;DEST&gt; | &lt;DEST_SRC&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPl=
ainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">Is there a real need for =
&lt;src&gt; routes? What&#8217;s the real difference between &lt;src&gt; and=
 &lt;dest&gt; routes?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; Source routes are usefu=
l for source-based routing. For example, route all packets coming from 10.0.=
0.1/16 to somewhere. Dest routes are regular routes based on where the packe=
t is intended for. DEST_SRC routes are a combination of the two.</div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
;"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-m=
icrosoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D=
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.co=
m/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN=
-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlain=
Text">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-base&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-special&gt; | =
&lt;nexthop-chain&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain-i=
dentifier&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPl=
ainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainTe=
xt"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"=
>When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between=
 &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; and
 nexthop-identifier?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; &nbsp;Removed CHAIN_NAM=
E. CHAIN_<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">NAME and CHAIN_</span>ID were one=
 and the same thing. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is real=
ly something like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; that identifies a particular =
&lt;nexthop&gt;. I have changed &#8220;nexthop-identifier&#8221; to &#8220;n=
exthop identifier&#8221; to remove confusion that it is a special term. &lt;=
NEXTHOP_<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">CHAIN_</span>ID&gt;&nbsp;is someth=
ing that identifies a &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
">&lt;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...</div><div style=
=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><=
br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn=
:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/of=
fice/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US"=
 link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText=
">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-memb=
er-identifier&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt=
;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &lt;ipv4-address&gt; | &lt;ipv6-address&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPl=
ainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; (&lt;ipv4-address&gt; | &l=
t;ipv6-address&gt;)) |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
(&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt; &lt;IEEE_MAC_ADDRESS&gt;) |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;tunnel-encap&gt; [&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&g=
t;]) |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;logical-tunn=
el&gt; |<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;RIB_NAME&g=
t;)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"Mso=
PlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;=
mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">The above model makes it that even the=
 very basic nexthops are defined through nexthop-chain &#8211; unnecessary t=
wist and it leads to unnatural
 representation when it comes to the data model (e.g. the chain is a list a=
nd each list entry has a client-assigned ID as key).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-col=
or:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-=
color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">As section 2.4.2 alluded=
 to, all the above &#8220;nexthop-chain-member&#8221; are just basic nexthop=
s shoulder to shoulder with &#8220;nexthop-special&#8221;.
 Therefore, the following model would be more natural?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-=
color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fi=
ll-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt=
; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-base&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-tex=
tfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-chain&gt; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;-- new<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-tex=
tfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-replicate&gt; |<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &lt;nexthop-lb&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-protection&gt;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textf=
ill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;next=
hop-base&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-special&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79=
;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-identifier&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlain=
Text"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-s=
tyle-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &lt;egress-interface&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-tex=
tfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8230=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;ms=
o-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;logical-tunnel&gt; |<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;RIB_NAME&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:=
#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-col=
or:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp; &lt;nexthop-chain&gt=
; ::=3D &lt;nexthop&gt;&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div>NB&gt; I&#8217;ll address t=
his in a separate email.</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"=
 style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmln=
s:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.=
org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"=
WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----------------------------<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span>=
<div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0,=
 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:sch=
emas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xm=
lns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.micros=
oft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oPlainText">&lt;mpls-header&gt; ::=3D (&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ...)<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ::=3D (&lt;MPLS_=
PUSH&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&gt;]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlain=
Text">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS_VALUE&gt;] [&lt;TTL_VALUE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPLS_POP&gt; [&lt;TTL_ACTION&gt;])<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainTe=
xt"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-sty=
le-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&lt;mpls-header&gt; is part of &lt;tunnel-enc=
ap&gt; - so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D=
"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB=
&gt; There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have=
 been to define &lt;tunnel-decap&gt;.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_=
SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"=
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:=
office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmln=
s=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pur=
ple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">---------------------=
--------<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; A backup can also have another backup.&nbsp; In=
 such a case, the list will<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; look like:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;nexthop&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION=
&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt; &lt;3&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;)<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><=
span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">Unle=
ss it meant &#8220;A PRIMAY can also have another backup&#8221;, shouldn&#82=
17;t the above be the following?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &lt;nexthop&gt; :: =3D &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt; (&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthhop&g=
t; &lt;2&gt; &lt;NEXTHOP_PROTECTION&gt;(&lt;1&gt; &lt;nexthop&gt;
 &lt;2&gt; &lt;nexhop&gt;))</span></p></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"=
font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br=
></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0);">NB&gt; Yes&#8230;Fixed.</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"=
 style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, =
0);"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmln=
s:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.=
org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"=
WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div></div>=
</span><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Thanks</div><div style=3D"font-size: 14px; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Nitin</div></body></=
html>

--B_3527082494_47647458--




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Hi,

Was this WebEX recorded?  If so, where can I find it?


/martin


"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>  
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 
> 
>  
> 
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> 
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> 
> Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 
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> I2RS Interim 10/7 
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Hi Nitin,

Please see zzh> below.




   o  tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel or

      MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.  An optional

      egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to

      send the packet out on.  The egress interface is useful when the

      network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to

      perform address resolution for the IP packet.



I don't think an egress interface should be part of the tunnel encap. The e=
gress interface and optionally a nbr address should be in a separate chain =
member.

NB> What the above paragraph is referring to is the below statement in the =
grammar:
<nexthop-chain-member> :: ...
                                                   (<tunnel-encap> [<EGRESS=
_INTERFACE>]) |


The goal here was to clearly specify what combination of options make sense=
.


 Zzh> The same comment still applies. A chain is a list of chain-members; a=
 chain-member could be an <egress-interface> [<address>]; so from the gramm=
ar pov, <egress-interface> should not be there. If you want to specify what=
 combination of options make sense, how do you say <logical-tunnel><rib_nam=
e> (and many others) does not make sense?




    <nexthop-base> ::=3D <nexthop-special> | <nexthop-chain>





    <nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...

    <nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |

                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>



When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between=
 <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier?


NB>  Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_NAME and CHAIN_ID were one and the same thin=
g. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is really something like=
 a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> that identifies a particular <nexthop>. I have chan=
ged "nexthop-identifier" to "nexthop identifier" to remove confusion that i=
t is a special term. <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that identifies a <nex=
thop-chain>.

Zzh> Can you clarify "nexthop-identifier ... is ... like a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIF=
IER>". <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> is not defined in the spec. If  you say "<NEXTH=
OP_IDENTIFIER> is nexthop identifier as referenced in section 4" then it's =
clear :)
Zzh> I don't understand why you say "<NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that i=
dentifies a <nexthop-chain>". <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is part of the following, =
so why would it identify a chain (vs. a chain member) .

<nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...
<nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |
                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>
<nexthop-chain-member> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member-identifier> |


------------------------


<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)

<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]

                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |

                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])



<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?


NB> There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have=
 been to define <tunnel-decap>.


Zzh> I think that option is better.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Nitin,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Please see zzh&gt; bel=
ow.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
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4.0pt">
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span sty=
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</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; =
tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel or<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.&nbsp; An optio=
nal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; send the packet out on.&nbsp; The egress interface is useful when=
 the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; perform address resolution for the IP packet.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79">I don&#8217;t think an egress interface should be p=
art of the tunnel encap. The egress interface and optionally a nbr address =
should be in a separate chain member.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">NB&gt; <span style=
=3D"color:black">
What the above paragraph is referring to is the below statement in the gram=
mar:<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&lt;nex=
thop-chain-member&gt; :: &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(&lt;tunnel-encap&gt; [&lt;EGRESS_INTERFACE&gt;]) |=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">The goal here was to clearly specify what combination of options =
make sense.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&nbsp;Zzh&gt; The same comment still applies. A cha=
in is a list of chain-members; a chain-member could be
 an &lt;egress-interface&gt; [&lt;address&gt;]; so from the grammar pov, &l=
t;egress-interface&gt; should not be there. If you want to specify what com=
bination of options make sense, how do you say &lt;logical-tunnel&gt;&lt;ri=
b_name&gt; (and many others) does not make sense?</span><span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alp=
ha:100.0%"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &l=
t;nexthop-base&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-special&gt; | &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&l=
t;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&l=
t;nexthop-chain-identifier&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME&gt; |<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79">When would you use &quot;chain_name&quot;? What's t=
he difference/relationship between &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; and nexthop-ide=
ntifier?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; =
&nbsp;Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_<i>NAME and CHAIN_</i>ID were one and the s=
ame thing. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is really someth=
ing like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; that identifies
 a particular &lt;nexthop&gt;. I have changed &#8220;nexthop-identifier&#82=
21; to &#8220;nexthop identifier&#8221; to remove confusion that it is a sp=
ecial term. &lt;NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that identifi=
es a &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Zzh&gt; Can you clarif=
y &#8220;nexthop-identifier &#8230; is &#8230; like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIE=
R&gt;&#8221;. &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is not defined in the spec. If&nbs=
p; you
 say &#8220;&lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is nexthop identifier as referenced =
in section 4&#8221; then it&#8217;s clear
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfil=
l-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">J</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfi=
ll-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Zzh&gt; I don&#8217;t =
understand why you say &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:=
black">&lt;NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that identifies
 a &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;&#8221;. </span><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-st=
yle-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&lt;N=
EXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; is part of the following, so why would it identify a ch=
ain (vs. a chain member) .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-=
member&gt; ...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain-identifier&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEX=
THOP_CHAIN_NAME&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;NEXTH=
OP_CHAIN_ID&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop=
-chain-member-identifier&gt; |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">----------------------=
--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;mpls-header&gt; :=
:=3D (&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;mpls-label-operat=
ion&gt; ::=3D (&lt;MPLS_PUSH&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&gt;]<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS=
_VALUE&gt;] [&lt;TTL_VALUE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPL=
S_POP&gt; [&lt;TTL_ACTION&gt;])<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">&lt;mpls-header&gt;=
 is part of &lt;tunnel-encap&gt; - so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; =
There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have bee=
n to define &lt;tunnel-decap&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Zzh&gt; I think that option is better.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BLUPR0501MB171525DABE9547D3BF515DF5D4350BLUPR0501MB1715_--


From nobody Thu Oct  8 06:55:37 2015
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'Martin Bjorklund'" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting
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Martin: 

I will send out webex id and notes this morning. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:55 AM
To: shares@ndzh.com
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; i2rs@ietf.org; kwatsen@juniper.net; andy@yumaworks.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting

Hi,

Was this WebEX recorded?  If so, where can I find it?


/martin


"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>  
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 
> 
>  
> 
> 1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]
> 
> 2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary 
> 
>    [10:05 - 10:15]
> 
> 3) Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30] 
> 
> 4) I2RS Protocol Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]
> 
> 5) Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]
> 
> 7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]
> 
> 8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7 
> 
> Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
> 
> 10:00 am  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)  |  2 hrs 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Join WebEx meeting 
> 
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1e24725f4e5646061f21baae1c6a87db
> 
>  
> 
> Meeting number:            649 136 221 
> 
> Meeting password:         kent.andy.proto
> 
>  
> 
> Join by phone
> 
> 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)
> 
> 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)
> 
> Access code: 649 136 221
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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I2RS WG: 

 

I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document
should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.

 

Sue Hares 

 

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

 

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: 

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

 

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  

This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.

We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requiremen
ts/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

 

Sue Hares 

 


------=_NextPart_000_0235_01D101C7.7D569140
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I2RS WG: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I missed an important =
part of the WG LC.&nbsp; Each author of each document should indicate =
whether they have any IPR on the requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sue Hares =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
i2rs [<a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, =
2015 7:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey =
Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br><b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement =
documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This begins =
a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</a><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This section =
is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We will discuss whether this =
section should be kept or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security=
-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-=
security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requireme=
nts/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirement=
s/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/">ht=
tp://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</a><o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue =
Hares <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0235_01D101C7.7D569140--


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From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Sue -=20

In reference to:

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt=20
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

I have no IPR to declare nor do I know of any related IPR that is undeclare=
d.

Cheers,

Gonzalo



> On Oct 8, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>=20
> I2RS WG:=20
> =20
> I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document sh=
ould indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.
> =20
> Sue Hares=20
> =20
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
> To: i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
> =20
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2R=
S:=20
> =20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
> =20
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes. =20
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interi=
m.
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.  =20
> =20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-require=
ments/
> =20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
> =20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/
> =20
> Sue Hares=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


From nobody Thu Oct  8 09:51:39 2015
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From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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On 10/8/15 12:47, Susan Hares wrote:
> I2RS WG:
>
> I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document
> should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.

We have no IPR covering traceability to declare, nor do I know of any 
related IPR in this area.

Joe

>
> Sue Hares
>
> *From:*i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
> *To:* i2rs@ietf.org <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
> *Subject:* [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
>
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS:
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
>
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
>
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
>
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Thu Oct  8 10:18:48 2015
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:18:46 -0400
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Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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As co-author of: 

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt 

 

I do not know of an IPR related to these drafts. 

 

Sue 

 

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 12:47 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
IPR disclosure

 

I2RS WG: 

 

I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document
should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.

 

Sue Hares 

 

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

 

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: 

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

 

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  

This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.

We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requiremen
ts/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt 

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

 

Sue Hares 

 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As co-author of: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I do not know of an IPR =
related to these drafts. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sue =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan =
Hares<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 12:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
i2rs@ietf.org<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia =
Atlas'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents =
(10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR =
disclosure<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I2RS WG: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I missed an important =
part of the WG LC.&nbsp; Each author of each document should indicate =
whether they have any IPR on the requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sue Hares =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
i2rs [<a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, =
2015 7:16 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey =
Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br><b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement =
documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This begins =
a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</a><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This section =
is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We will discuss whether this =
section should be kept or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security=
-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-=
security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requireme=
nts/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirement=
s/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/">ht=
tp://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</a><o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue =
Hares <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 10:28:45 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, <i2rs@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D23BF574.2FE93%nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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As author of draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07, I am not aware of an IPR
filed by me, my current employer or my past-employer (when I was employed
with them).

Thanks
Nitin

From:  Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date:  Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:18 AM
To:  <i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc:  'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject:  Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
IPR disclosure

As co-author of: 
 
draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
 
I do not know of an IPR related to these drafts.
 
Sue



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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div><br></div><div>As author of&n=
bsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07, I am not aware of an IPR filed by me,=
 my current employer or my past-employer (when I was employed with them).</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div>Nitin</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"=
OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-=
align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium non=
e; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #=
b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold">From: </span> Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.=
com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>=
 Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:18 AM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:=
 </span> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span s=
tyle=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> 'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas=
@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;, 'Alia Atlas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@=
gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subje=
ct: </span> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) =
- IPR disclosure<br></div><div><br></div><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft=
-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:sch=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497=
D">As co-author of: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirem=
ents-01.txt <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>I do not know of an IPR related to these drafts. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sue</span></p></div></div></di=
v></span></body></html>

--B_3527144930_48243224--



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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
Thread-Index: AdEB5+DLM5h+BqpqTSycX0eoPofscAAB5dAA
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:37:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Hi Sue,

as coauthor of draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR =
regarding what's in the draft.

Thanks
--- Alex
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - =
IPR disclosure

I2RS WG:

I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document shou=
ld indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.

Sue Hares

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS:

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requireme=
nts/

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

Sue Hares


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Sue,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">as coauthor of </span>=
draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR regarding what&=
#8217;s in the draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- Alex<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;jhaas@pfrc.org&gt;; 'Alia Atlas' &lt;akatlas@=
gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2=
015) - IPR disclosure<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS WG: <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I missed an important =
part of the WG LC.&nbsp; Each author of each document should indicate wheth=
er they have any IPR on the requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015)=
 -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirem=
ent documents for I2RS:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-ephemeral-state/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ep=
hemeral-state/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This section is blank and this will be discussed at =
the 10/17/2015 interim.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will discuss whether this section should be kept =
or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.tx=
t <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2=
rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-traceability/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-trace=
ability/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B572823513Axmbrcdx05ciscoc_--


From nobody Thu Oct  8 10:37:40 2015
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, i2rs@ietf.org
References: <023401d101e9$0466aaa0$0d33ffe0$@ndzh.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 13:37:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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I do not know of any undeclared IPR on any of these documents.
Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

On 10/8/15 12:47 PM, Susan Hares wrote:
> I2RS WG:
>
> I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document
> should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.
>
> Sue Hares
>
> *From:*i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
> *To:* i2rs@ietf.org <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
> *Subject:* [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
>
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS:
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
>
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
>
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
>
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


From nobody Thu Oct  8 10:41:34 2015
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From: "Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (albertgo)" <albertgo@cisco.com>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>,  "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:41:28 +0000
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References: <023401d101e9$0466aaa0$0d33ffe0$@ndzh.com> <DBC595ED2346914F9F81D17DD5C32B572823513A@xmb-rcd-x05.cisco.com>
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--_000_D23BF8BC4F4DDalbertgociscocom_
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Hi Sue,

as coauthor of draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR =
regarding what=92s in the draft.

Thanks,

Alberto

From: i2rs <i2rs-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf =
of "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com<mailto:alex@cisco.com>>
Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:37 AM
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com<mailto:shares@ndzh.com>>, "i2rs@ietf.org<m=
ailto:i2rs@ietf.org>" <i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org<mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org>>, 'Alia Atlas' <a=
katlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - =
IPR disclosure

Hi Sue,

as coauthor of draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR =
regarding what=92s in the draft.

Thanks
--- Alex
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org<mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org>>; 'Alia Atlas' <a=
katlas@gmail.com<mailto:akatlas@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - =
IPR disclosure

I2RS WG:

I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document shou=
ld indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.

Sue Hares

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS:

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requireme=
nts/

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

Sue Hares


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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sue,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as coauthor of&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirem=
ents, I am not aware of IPR regarding what=92s in the draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alberto</p>
</div>
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>i2rs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i2=
rs-bounces@ietf.org">i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Alexa=
nder Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, October 8, 2015 at =
10:37 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@i=
etf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;, 'Alia Atlas' &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requi=
rement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure<br>
</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Sue,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">as coauthor of </span>=
draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR regarding what=
=92s in the draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- Alex<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.=
org</a>&gt;; 'Alia Atlas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2=
015) - IPR disclosure<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS WG: <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I missed an important =
part of the WG LC.&nbsp; Each author of each document should indicate wheth=
er they have any IPR on the requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Taho=
ma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-famil=
y: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mai=
lto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015)=
 -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirem=
ent documents for I2RS:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-ephemeral-state/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ep=
hemeral-state/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This section is blank and this will be discussed at =
the 10/17/2015 interim.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will discuss whether this section should be kept =
or removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.tx=
t <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2=
rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-traceability/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-trace=
ability/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D23BF8BC4F4DDalbertgociscocom_--


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 10:47:16 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between
<NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier?
=20

NB>  Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_NAME and CHAIN_ID were one and the same
thing. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is really something
like a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> that identifies a particular <nexthop>. I have
changed =B3nexthop-identifier=B2 to =B3nexthop identifier=B2 to remove confusion
that it is a special term. <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that identifies =
a
<nexthop-chain>.

=20

Zzh> Can you clarify =B3nexthop-identifier =8A is =8A like a
<NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER>=B2. <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> is not defined in the spec. If
you say =B3<NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> is nexthop identifier as referenced in sectio=
n
4=B2 then it=B9s clear J

I left the reference and definition of <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> to the
data-model draft. There is nothing in the grammar that references it, so
defining it did not make sense. Section 2.4.3 has:

identifier: This is an identifier returned by the network device

      representing another nexthop or another nexthop chain.


Section 4 has:

routes that use a nexthop that is identified by a nexthop identifier should
be

   unaffected when the contents of that nexthop changes.



So I=B9m not clear where to define/reference these terminals. I=B9m hoping the
data-model does a good job at incorporating this :)

Zzh> I don=B9t understand why you say =B3<NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that
identifies a <nexthop-chain>=B2. <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is part of the following,
so why would it identify a chain (vs. a chain member) .
=20
<nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...
<nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |
                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>
<nexthop-chain-member> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member-identifier> |

I=B9m unclear what your concern is or how you would like it re-worded. The wa=
y
I see it, a NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID  is the ID for a chain. And a
NEXTHOP_CHAIN_MEMBER_ID (not defined or referenced) should be the ID for a
chain-member.


------------------------

=20

<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)
<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]
                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |
                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])
=20
<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?
=20

NB> There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have
been to define <tunnel-decap>.

=20

Zzh> I think that option is better.

The macro issue IMO is do we need to support a tunnel-decap for all kinds o=
f
tunnels. If yes, then it makes sense to make changes all over the draft to
support this. If not, then it looks like a big hammer to me. I=B9m fine with
whatever the WG wants.

Thanks
Nitin



--B_3527146045_48309416
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0=
); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span id=3D"O=
LK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; font-size: 14px;"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:=
o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-c=
om:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" x=
mlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"=
purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid =
blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">When wo=
uld you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between &lt;NEX=
THOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; and nexthop-identifier?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; &nbsp;Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_<i>NAME an=
d CHAIN_</i>ID were one and the same thing. Nexthop-identifier (as reference=
d in Section 4) is really something like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; that i=
dentifies
 a particular &lt;nexthop&gt;. I have changed &#8220;nexthop-identifier&#82=
21; to &#8220;nexthop identifier&#8221; to remove confusion that it is a spe=
cial term. &lt;NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that identifies=
 a &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:=
100.0%">Zzh&gt; Can you clarify &#8220;nexthop-identifier &#8230; is &#8230;=
 like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt;&#8221;. &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is not=
 defined in the spec. If&nbsp; you
 say &#8220;&lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is nexthop identifier as referenced =
in section 4&#8221; then it&#8217;s clear
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-=
fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">J</span></p></div><=
/div></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0=
, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 16px;">I left the reference and definition of &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&g=
t; to the data-model draft. There is nothing in the grammar that references =
it, so defining it did not make sense. Section 2.4.3 has:</span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px=
;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 14px;"><p style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: M=
enlo; background-color: rgb(248, 253, 196);"><span style=3D"background-color: =
#e6e600">identifier</span>: This is an <span style=3D"background-color: #e6e60=
0">identifier</span> returned by the network device</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Menlo; background-colo=
r: rgb(248, 253, 196);">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; representing another nexthop or=
 another nexthop chain.</p></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 16px;">Section 4 has:</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><p st=
yle=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Menlo; background-color: rgb=
(248, 253, 196);">routes that use a nexthop that is identified by a nexthop&=
nbsp;<span style=3D"background-color: rgb(230, 230, 0);">identifier</span> sho=
uld be</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Menlo; background-colo=
r: rgb(248, 253, 196);">&nbsp;&nbsp; unaffected when the contents of that ne=
xthop changes.</p><p style=3D"margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Menlo=
; background-color: rgb(248, 253, 196);"><br></p></div><div style=3D"color: rg=
b(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px;"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px;">So I&#8217;m not clear where to define=
/reference these terminals. I&#8217;m hoping the data-model does a good job =
at incorporating this :)</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BO=
DY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 14px;"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:sc=
hemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office=
:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"htt=
p://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><=
div class=3D"WordSection1"><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5p=
t;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79=
;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-s=
tyle-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">Zzh&g=
t; I don&#8217;t understand why you say &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.5pt;color:black">&lt;NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that =
identifies
 a &lt;nexthop-chain&gt;&#8221;. </span><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-styl=
e-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&lt;NEXT=
HOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; is part of the following, so why would it identify a chain =
(vs. a chain member) .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fil=
l-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black;">&lt;nexthop-ch=
ain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: =
black;">&lt;nexthop-chain-identifier&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME&gt; |<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-f=
amily: 'Courier New'; color: black;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;=
NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black;">&lt;nexthop-chai=
n-member&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member-identifier&gt; |</span><span style=
=3D"font-family: 'Courier New'; font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;</span></p></div></div=
></div></div></span><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">I&#8217;m unclear what your =
concern is or how you would like it re-worded. The way I see it, a NEXTHOP_<=
span style=3D"font-style: italic;">CHAIN_</span>ID&nbsp; is the ID for a chain=
. And a NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i><span style=3D"font-style: italic;">MEMBER</span>=
_ID (not defined or referenced) should be the ID for a chain-member.</div><d=
iv style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><div=
 xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:=
office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http=
://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/RE=
C-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSecti=
on1"><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 4.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79;mso-style-text=
fill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">--------------=
----------<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;mpls-header&gt; ::=3D (&l=
t;mpls-label-operation&gt; ...)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"=
><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ::=3D (&lt;MPLS_PUSH&g=
t; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&gt;]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlai=
nText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS_VALUE&gt;] [&lt;TTL_VAL=
UE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPLS_POP&gt; [&lt;TTL_ACTION&gt;])<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">&lt;mpls-header&gt; =
is part of &lt;tunnel-encap&gt; - so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?</=
span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"=
><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; There was=
 no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have been to defin=
e &lt;tunnel-decap&gt;.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></di=
v><div><div><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">Zzh&gt; I think that option is better.</spa=
n></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0=
, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px;">The macro issue =
IMO is do we need to support a tunnel-decap for all kinds of tunnels. If yes=
, then it makes sense to make changes all over&nbsp;the draft to support thi=
s. If not, then it looks like a big hammer to me.&nbsp;I&#8217;m fine with w=
hatever the WG wants.</span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px;">Thanks</span></font></div><=
div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size: 16px;">Nitin</sp=
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Cc: "sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com" <sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Nitin,

For the first issue, I think you're saying that <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> is the=
 "nexthop identifier". Now it's clear.


For the second issue, I did get <nexthop-chain-identifier> and <nexthop-cha=
in-member-identifier> mixed up in the info model, but that's because the fo=
llowing from data model, which is confusing at least if not incorrect:
  grouping nexthop-chain-member {   <-- member here
    description
      "One nexthop content for a route.";
    leaf nexthop-chain-id{          <-- chain here
      type uint32;
      mandatory true;
    }



Still, what's the difference/relationship between the following?



- <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier for the chain nexthop? That's m=
y original question.

- <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_MEMBER_ID> and nextop-identifier for the chain member?



For the third issue, precisely because we don't have tunnel decap for other=
 tunnels, why having a label pop for MPLS :)



BTW, a nit:


   A modify-able object is one whose contents can be changed without
   having to change objects that depend on it and without affecting any
   data forwarding.



When you change the nexthop content, the data forwarding will definitely be=
 affected - it's what you want. The "and without affecting any data forward=
ing" should be removed - what you want to emphasize is that you don't have =
to change the objects that depend on it (and the text does do that already)=
.



Jeffrey

From: Nitin Bahadur [mailto:nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 1:47 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to=
 10/20/2015)



When would you use "chain_name"? What's the difference/relationship between=
 <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> and nexthop-identifier?


NB>  Removed CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_NAME and CHAIN_ID were one and the same thin=
g. Nexthop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is really something like=
 a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> that identifies a particular <nexthop>. I have chan=
ged "nexthop-identifier" to "nexthop identifier" to remove confusion that i=
t is a special term. <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that identifies a <nex=
thop-chain>.

Zzh> Can you clarify "nexthop-identifier ... is ... like a <NEXTHOP_IDENTIF=
IER>". <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> is not defined in the spec. If  you say "<NEXTH=
OP_IDENTIFIER> is nexthop identifier as referenced in section 4" then it's =
clear :)

I left the reference and definition of <NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER> to the data-mod=
el draft. There is nothing in the grammar that references it, so defining i=
t did not make sense. Section 2.4.3 has:


identifier: This is an identifier returned by the network device

      representing another nexthop or another nexthop chain.

Section 4 has:


routes that use a nexthop that is identified by a nexthop identifier should=
 be

   unaffected when the contents of that nexthop changes.



So I'm not clear where to define/reference these terminals. I'm hoping the =
data-model does a good job at incorporating this :)

Zzh> I don't understand why you say "<NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is something that i=
dentifies a <nexthop-chain>". <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID> is part of the following, =
so why would it identify a chain (vs. a chain member) .

<nexthop-chain> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member> ...
<nexthop-chain-identifier> ::=3D <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAME> |
                                <NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID>
<nexthop-chain-member> ::=3D <nexthop-chain-member-identifier> |

I'm unclear what your concern is or how you would like it re-worded. The wa=
y I see it, a NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID  is the ID for a chain. And a NEXTHOP_CHAIN_=
MEMBER_ID (not defined or referenced) should be the ID for a chain-member.


------------------------


<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)

<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]

                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |

                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])



<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?


NB> There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have=
 been to define <tunnel-decap>.


Zzh> I think that option is better.

The macro issue IMO is do we need to support a tunnel-decap for all kinds o=
f tunnels. If yes, then it makes sense to make changes all over the draft t=
o support this. If not, then it looks like a big hammer to me. I'm fine wit=
h whatever the WG wants.

Thanks
Nitin

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Nitin,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">For the first issue, I=
 think you&#8217;re saying that &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is the &#8220;ne=
xthop identifier&#8221;. Now it&#8217;s clear.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497=
D">For the second issue, I did get </span><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;n=
exthop-chain-identifier&gt; </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-co=
lor:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">and</span><span style=3D"=
color:black"> &lt;nexthop-chain-member-identifier&gt; </span><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;=
mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%"=
>mixed up in the info model, but that&#8217;s because the following from da=
ta model, which is confusing at least if not incorrect:<o:p></o:p></span></=
pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp; grouping nexthop-chain-member {&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:black">&=
szlig;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&=
quot;;color:black"> member here<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; description<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;One nexth=
op content for a route.&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf nexthop-chain-id{&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:black">&=
szlig;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&=
quot;;color:black"> chain here<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory true;=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">Still, what&#8217;s the difference/relationship between=
 the following?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">- </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">&lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; and ne=
xthop-identifier for the chain nexthop? That&#8217;s my original question.<=
o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79">- </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1=
F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">&lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_MEMBER_ID&gt;=
 and nextop-identifier for the chain member</span><span style=3D"color:blac=
k">?<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">For the third issue, precisely because we don&#8217;t h=
ave tunnel decap for other tunnels, why having a label pop for MPLS </span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F4E79;mso-sty=
le-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">J</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fi=
ll-alpha:100.0%"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">BTW, a nit:<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; A modify-able object is one whose=
 contents can be changed without<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; having to change objects that dep=
end on it and without affecting any<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; data forwarding.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">When you change the nexthop content, the data forwardin=
g will definitely be affected &#8211; it&#8217;s what you want. The &#8220;=
and without affecting any data forwarding&#8221; should be removed &#8211; =
what you want to emphasize is that you don&#8217;t have to change the objec=
ts that depend on it (and the text does do that already).<o:p></o:p></span>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#1F4E79;mso-style-textfill=
-fill-alpha:100.0%">Jeffrey<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Nitin Bahadur [mailto:nitin_bahadur@yah=
oo.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 1:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang &lt;zzhang@juniper.net&gt;; i2rs@ietf.or=
g<br>
<b>Cc:</b> sriganesh.kini@ericsson.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (=
10/6 to 10/20/2015)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">When would you use &quot;chain_nam=
e&quot;? What's the difference/relationship between &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt=
; and nexthop-identifier?</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; &nbsp;Removed =
CHAIN_NAME. CHAIN_<i>NAME and CHAIN_</i>ID were one and the same thing. Nex=
thop-identifier (as referenced in Section 4) is
 really something like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; that identifies a parti=
cular &lt;nexthop&gt;. I have changed &#8220;nexthop-identifier&#8221; to &=
#8220;nexthop identifier&#8221; to remove confusion that it is a special te=
rm. &lt;NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that identifies a &lt=
;nexthop-chain&gt;.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">Zzh&gt; Can you clarify &#8220;nexth=
op-identifier &#8230; is &#8230; like a &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt;&#8221;. =
&lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; is not defined in the spec. If&nbsp; you say &#8=
220;&lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt;
 is nexthop identifier as referenced in section 4&#8221; then it&#8217;s cl=
ear </span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F4E79">J</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">I left the reference and=
 definition of &lt;NEXTHOP_IDENTIFIER&gt; to the data-model draft. There is=
 nothing in the grammar that references it, so defining it did not make sen=
se. Section 2.4.3 has:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F8FDC4"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black;background:#E6E600">id=
entifier</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:bla=
ck">: This is an
<span style=3D"background:#E6E600">identifier</span> returned by the networ=
k device</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot=
;,serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F8FDC4"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
representing another nexthop or another nexthop chain.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 4 has:</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F8FDC4"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black">routes that use a nex=
thop that is identified by a nexthop&nbsp;<span style=3D"background:#E6E600=
">identifier</span> should be</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F8FDC4"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; unaffect=
ed when the contents of that nexthop changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;background:#F8FDC4"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Menlo&quot;,serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">So I&#8217;m not clear w=
here to define/reference these terminals. I&#8217;m hoping the data-model d=
oes a good job at incorporating this :)</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">Zzh&gt; I don&#8217;t understand why=
 you say &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&lt;NEX=
THOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&gt;&nbsp;is something that identifies a &lt;nexthop-ch=
ain&gt;&#8221;.
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">&lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt; is part of th=
e following, so why would it identify a chain (vs. a chain member) .</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot=
;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ...=
</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot=
;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain-identifier&gt; ::=3D &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_NAM=
E&gt; |</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot=
;;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;NEXTHOP_CHAIN_ID&gt=
;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot=
;;color:black">&lt;nexthop-chain-member&gt; ::=3D &lt;nexthop-chain-member-=
identifier&gt; |&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">I&#8217=
;m unclear what your concern is or how you would like it re-worded. The way=
 I see it, a NEXTHOP_<i>CHAIN_</i>ID&nbsp; is the ID for a chain. And a NEX=
THOP_<i>CHAIN_MEMBER</i>_ID (not defined or referenced)
 should be the ID for a chain-member.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:#1F4E79">------------------------</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&lt;mpls-header&gt; ::=3D (&lt;mpls-=
label-operation&gt; ...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ::=3D (=
&lt;MPLS_PUSH&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&gt;]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS_VALUE&gt;] [&l=
t;TTL_VALUE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPLS_POP&gt; [&lt;=
TTL_ACTION&gt;])<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">&lt;mpls-header&gt; is part of &lt=
;tunnel-encap&gt; - so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:bl=
ack"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; There was no e=
asy place to put the POP operation. One option would have been to define &l=
t;tunnel-decap&gt;.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span st=
yle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F4E79">Zzh&gt; I think that option is bet=
ter.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The macro issue IMO is do we need to support a tunne=
l-decap for all kinds of tunnels. If yes, then it makes sense to make chang=
es all over&nbsp;the draft to support this. If not, then it looks like a bi=
g hammer to me.&nbsp;I&#8217;m fine with whatever
 the WG wants.<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;,serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Nitin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BLUPR0501MB17159D3A23CF6DCF348B9287D4350BLUPR0501MB1715_--


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From: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 20:15:08 +0000
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Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Folks,

The following is an update on the ongoing I2RS<=3D>TE Topology alignment di=
scussion (between the authors of the TE Topology model and Alex).

The issues / solutions that are currently being discussed are:

I2RS Generic Network Topology Model (draft-ietf-yang-network-topo):

1.      Some groupings in ietf-network.yang and ietf-network-topology.yang =
cannot be used in augmenting module because of missing name spaces, such as=
 "path "/network/network-id" at line 42 of ietf-network.yang.
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.



2.      "leaf network-ref" in ietf-network-topology.yang:169, 220, is causi=
ng pyang validation errors.
Solution: Alex will check the errors.


3.      Can the group of schedule attributes be moved from ietf-te-topology=
.yang to ietf-network-topology.yang?
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.


4.      How to support state branch in augmenting module?
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.


5.      Should "server-provided" flag be used to block user operation on re=
ad-only entities?
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.


6.      Should I2RS Generic Network Topology model have a top-level contain=
er? The benefit of doing so is to provide an augmentation target node to de=
fine attributes global to all networks.
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 "/networks" as the top level container.

L3 Topology Model (draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)

1.      L3 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so t=
hat the related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L3 topology =
and TE topology are congruent.
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.

L2 Topology Model (draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)

1.      L2 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so t=
hat the related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L2 topology =
and TE topology are congruent.
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.

Regards,
- Xufeng (on behalf of the authors of the TE Topology Model)

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14)

draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/

Implementation status:

This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and general mo=
del.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in future ODL im=
plementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has implementations=
 of these topology models to provide details on list or offlist to the chai=
rs.

Sue Hares

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Folks,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The following is an up=
date on the ongoing I2RS</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#=
1F497D">=F3</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TE Topology alignment discu=
ssion (between the authors of the TE Topology
 model and Alex).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The issues / solutions=
 that are currently being discussed are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS Generic Network T=
opology Model (</span>draft-ietf-yang-network-topo):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Some groupings=
 in ietf-network.yang and ietf-network-topology.yang cannot be used in augm=
enting module because of missing name spaces, such as &#8220;path &quot;/ne=
twork/network-id&quot; at line 42 of ietf-network.yang.<br>
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&#8220;leaf ne=
twork-ref&#8221; in ietf-network-topology.yang:169, 220, is causing pyang v=
alidation errors.<br>
Solution: Alex will check the errors.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Can the group =
of schedule attributes be moved from ietf-te-topology.yang to ietf-network-=
topology.yang?<br>
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">How to support=
 state branch in augmenting module?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should &#8220;=
server-provided&#8221; flag be used to block user operation on read-only en=
tities?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should I2RS Ge=
neric Network Topology model have a top-level container? The benefit of doi=
ng so is to provide an augmentation target node to define attributes global=
 to all networks.<br>
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 &#8220;/networks&#8221; as the top level container.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Mo=
del should have references to TE Topology model, so that the related TE inf=
ormation can be properly retrieved, when L3 topology and TE topology are co=
ngruent.
<br>
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level=
1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"m=
so-list:Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Mo=
del should have references to TE Topology model, so that the related TE inf=
ormation can be properly retrieved, when L2 topology and TE topology are co=
ngruent.
<br>
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Xufeng (on behalf of=
 the authors of the TE Topology Model)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [ma=
ilto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-yang-network-topo &#8211; modeling draft =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-network-topo/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-=
yang-network-topo/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology &#8211; L3 topology=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-y=
ang-l3-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology &#8211; L2 topology=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Implementation status: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 =
topology and general model.&nbsp; It is likely the L2 topology model will b=
e supported in future ODL implementations. &nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff and I would app=
reciate anyone who has implementations of these topology
 models to provide details on list or offlist to the chairs. <o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_AAB1CC9C17CBA440BDFA169056B93B9E127BE37Deusaamb107erics_--


From nobody Thu Oct  8 15:36:48 2015
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To: "'Martin Bjorklund'" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting
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Martin and all: 


The recording streaming recording is at: 

I2RS Interim 10/7-20151007 1405-1 
Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
11:39 am | Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00) 

PLAY RECORDING (1 hr 31 min) 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=c7a470c3bec3a9ed4db8a379e273716d

I will send notes to the list later tonight. 

Sue Hares 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:55 AM
To: 'Martin Bjorklund'
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; i2rs@ietf.org; kwatsen@juniper.net; andy@yumaworks.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting

Martin: 

I will send out webex id and notes this morning. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:55 AM
To: shares@ndzh.com
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; i2rs@ietf.org; kwatsen@juniper.net; andy@yumaworks.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting

Hi,

Was this WebEX recorded?  If so, where can I find it?


/martin


"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>  
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 
> 
>  
> 
> 1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]
> 
> 2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary 
> 
>    [10:05 - 10:15]
> 
> 3) Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30] 
> 
> 4) I2RS Protocol Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]
> 
> 5) Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]
> 
> 7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]
> 
> 8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7 
> 
> Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
> 
> 10:00 am  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)  |  2 hrs 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Join WebEx meeting 
> 
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1e24725f4e5646061f21baae1c6a87db
> 
>  
> 
> Meeting number:            649 136 221 
> 
> Meeting password:         kent.andy.proto
> 
>  
> 
> Join by phone
> 
> 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)
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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 20:36:28 -0400
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From: Daniel Migault <daniel.migault@ericsson.com>
To: "Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (albertgo)" <albertgo@cisco.com>
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Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, "Alexander Clemm \(alex\)" <alex@cisco.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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Hi,

As a co-author of draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt I
am not aware of any IPR regarding this draft.

BR,
Daniel

On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (albertgo) <
albertgo@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Sue,
>
>
>
> as coauthor of draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IP=
R
> regarding what=E2=80=99s in the draft.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Alberto
>
> From: i2rs <i2rs-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Alexander Clemm (alex)" =
<
> alex@cisco.com>
> Date: Thursday, October 8, 2015 at 10:37 AM
> To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
> - IPR disclosure
>
> Hi Sue,
>
>
>
> as coauthor of draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of
> IPR regarding what=E2=80=99s in the draft.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> --- Alex
>
> *From:* i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org <i2rs-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM
> *To:* i2rs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to
> 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
>
>
>
> I2RS WG:
>
>
>
> I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document
> should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.
>
>
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> *From:* i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org <i2rs-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Susan Hares
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
> *To:* i2rs@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
> *Subject:* [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
>
>
>
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for
> I2RS:
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
>
>
>
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
>
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interi=
m.
>
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
>
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-require=
ments/
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
>
>
>
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/
>
>
>
> Sue Hares
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
>

--047d7bfcef749458320521a12bf1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>As a co-author of=C2=A0<span =
style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px">draft-ietf-i2r=
s-protocol-</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:1=
4.6667px">security-requirements-01.txt I am not aware of any IPR regarding =
this draft.</span><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:14.6667px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;font-size:14.6667px">BR,=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px">Daniel</span></div></div></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 8=
, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (albertgo) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:albertgo@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">albertgo@cisco.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sue,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as coauthor of=C2=A0draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirem=
ents, I am not aware of IPR regarding what=E2=80=99s in the draft.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alberto</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>i2rs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i2=
rs-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beh=
alf of &quot;Alexander Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, October 8, 2015 at =
10:37 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:shares@ndzh.com" target=3D"_blank">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" target=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;, &#3=
9;Alia Atlas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requi=
rement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>


<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi Sue,<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">as coauthor of </span>=
draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements, I am not aware of IPR regarding what=
=E2=80=99s in the draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- Alex<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 9:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;; &#39;Alia Atlas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2=
015) - IPR disclosure<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I2RS WG: <u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I missed an important =
part of the WG LC.=C2=A0 Each author of each document should indicate wheth=
er they have any IPR on the requirements.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Sue Hares <u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahom=
a,sans-serif"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i2rs@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39;; &#39;Alia Atlas&#39;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015)=
 -<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirem=
ent documents for I2RS:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-ephemeral-state/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal =
NETCONF Changes.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This section is blank and this will be discussed at =
the 10/17/2015 interim.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We will discuss whether this section should be kept =
or removed. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.tx=
t <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/</a><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt <u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt <u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-traceability/" target=3D"_blank">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></span>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi, Xufeng, Alex,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank you for taking the effort to work toward getting=
 aligned as discussed in last meeting. &nbsp;&nbsp;I have some comments on =
some of the conclusions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">Could you share a bit more on reasons behind Point 3 c=
onclusion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">For points 4 and 5, I think they are related. My under=
standing is that for ietf-network, it does not follow the method taken by Y=
ANG modules such as ietf-interface and ietf-te-topology,
 in which each =A8Crw leaf will have a corresponding =A8Cro leaf. Instead, =
it choose to use the =A1=B0server-provided=A1=B1 attribute to say whether a=
ll the leafs in the module is configurable or state. I am not sure I unders=
tand the conclusion of these two points. Do you
 agree that both methods are acceptable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">One last comment on point 6: is this for future-proofn=
ess or you have already have some attributes in mind that can apply to all =
networks?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">Thank you,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">Xian</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xufeng Liu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2015</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=
=CC=E5">=C4=EA</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">10</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D4=C2</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">9</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=C8=
=D5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 4:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Folk=
s,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The fol=
lowing is an update on the ongoing I2RS</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">=A8=AE</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">TE Topology alignment discussion
 (between the authors of the TE Topology model and Alex).</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The iss=
ues / solutions that are currently being discussed are:</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS Ge=
neric Network Topology Model (</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-yang-n=
etwork-topo):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Some groupings in ietf-network.yang and ietf-network-topology.yang cannot =
be used in augmenting module because of missing name spaces, such as =A1=B0=
path &quot;/network/network-id&quot; at line 42 of
 ietf-network.yang.<br>
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>=A1=B0leaf network-ref=A1=B1 in ietf-network-topology.yang:169, 220, is ca=
using pyang validation errors.<br>
Solution: Alex will check the errors.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Can the group of schedule attributes be moved from ietf-te-topology.yang t=
o ietf-network-topology.yang?<br>
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>How to support state branch in augmenting module?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Should =A1=B0server-provided=A1=B1 flag be used to block user operation on=
 read-only entities?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">6.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>Should I2RS Generic Network Topology model have a top-level container? The=
 benefit of doing so is to provide an augmentation target node to define at=
tributes global to all networks.<br>
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 =A1=B0/networks=A1=B1 as the top level container.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topo=
logy Model (</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l1 leve=
l1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>L3 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so that the=
 related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L3 topology and TE =
topology are congruent.
<br>
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topo=
logy Model (</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 leve=
l1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span style=3D"mso-list:=
Ignore">1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"=
>L2 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so that the=
 related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L2 topology and TE =
topology are congruent.
<br>
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Xufen=
g (on behalf of the authors of the TE Topology Model)</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This begins a 2 week WG Last ca=
ll (10/1 to 10/14)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-yang-network-topo =
=A8C modeling draft
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/">http://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topolog=
y =A8C L3 topology
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topolog=
y =A8C L2 topology
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/">http://datatracker.i=
etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Implementation status: <o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This an OpenDaylight (ODL) impl=
ementation of the L3 topology and general model.&nbsp; It is likely the L2 =
topology model will be supported in future ODL implementations. &nbsp;&nbsp=
;Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has implementations
 of these topology models to provide details on list or offlist to the chai=
rs. <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sue Hares &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C636AF2FA540124E9B9ACB5A6BECCE6B54ACDD33SZXEMA512MBSchi_--


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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:22:07 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi,

there is a discussion on the yang doctors mailing list about the data
model design that mixes state data and configuration data into one
subtree and that uses a data model specific runtime object to identify
what is config data and what is state data. One of the main outcomes
of the IAB workshop back in 2002 was the need to clearly separate
configuration from operational state and this has been driven the
design of NETCONF and YANG. YANG data model validation rules, for
example, make a distinction between config true and config false data.
The config true or false property impacts what is returned by
NETCONF's get-config operation. Also note that config data is not
allowed to refer to config false data in constraints.

It is unclear why the document does not follow the typical design
pattern, namely to have a config true subtree

  /networks/network*

and a config false subtree

  /networks-state/network*

Section 3.5 describes this approach in the 3rd paragraph and states
"As most data is defined in those groupings, the amount of additional
definitions required will be limited." and there are no strong reasons
given why this approach has not been followed.

/js

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 06:41:34PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) 
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft 
> 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology 
> 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology 
> 
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/
> 
>  
> 
> Implementation status: 
> 
>  
> 
> This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and general
> model.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in future ODL
> implementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has
> implementations of these topology models to provide details on list or
> offlist to the chairs. 
> 
>  
> 
> Sue Hares  
> 

> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: [i2rs] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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Hi,

I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide the =
relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and =
netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same management =
data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:

1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment =
ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.

2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would address =
only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for advanced =
routers will be done elsewhere.

3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.

Opinions?

Thanks, Lada

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, "NETMOD WG" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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> On 09 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Lada,=20
> I2RS is not chartered to do the base models. There are other routing
> models that reference routing-cfg and even in-progress =
implementations.

Of course, I am aware of them. However, assuming that changes resulting =
from I2RS operation will be available for inspection as state data to =
NETCONF/RESTCONF clients, and vice versa, it's important that the those =
routing data models and I2RS data models remain compatible and =
coordinated.

A data model for RIBs should IMO be developed simultaneously for both =
purposes, and common parts implemented as groupings so as to be reusable =
without copying-and-pasting.=20

>=20
> On 10/9/15, 4:13 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka"
> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide =
the
>> relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and
>> netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same =
management
>> data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:
>>=20
>> 1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment
>> ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.
>=20
> This would seem to be the obvious choice.

I agree, and so far it can be done quite easily.

>=20
>>=20
>> 2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would address
>> only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for advanced
>> routers will be done elsewhere.
>>=20
>> 3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.
>=20
> A fourth option would be for me to take over ownership, move the work =
to
> the RTG WG, and we=E2=80=99d recruit some strong authors/reviewers =
from operators
> and other vendors (involving the ADs in selection).

Yes, that's what I meant.

Thanks, Lada

>=20
> Thanks,
> Acee=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Opinions?
>>=20
>> Thanks, Lada
>>=20
>> --
>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 16:13:03 -0400
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Subject: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol 

 

1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS 

2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds 

configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.

 

3)      The ephemeral datastore is never locked.

4)      I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass mechanisms

Pane 1: normal configuration 

Pane 2:  ephemeral state 

 

                The I2RS agent and configuration software on 

              the node  must handle this complexity.

 

5)      The key word "ephemeral" can be used to identify 

Identities which are ephemeral in data models.

 

Does anyone have any concerns with adding this to 

Yang? 

 

6)       Each client has a priority.  

a.       Multiple clients may share a priority, 

b.      AAA or other external mechanisms 

provides the client ID and priority 

c.       An authorized I2RS client must have both

A client Id and a priority, 

d.      System administrators set up the number 

of client IDs and priorities within a system. 

 

7)      I2RS has defined 3 ways of handling errors  in order

To be efficient in the processing. 

a.       "all-or-nothing", 

b.      "stop-on-error", 

c.       "continue on error"

 

.         If these three are supported, it is the agent which must support
the complexity to support all three.

.         The WG must consider whether for the initial release we limit the
agent by doing "all or nothing". 

 

.         One issues with this is grouping changes into a related group. 

.         The failure in one part of a related  group could cause errors in
the related 

.         "continue on error" were only meant for variables which are
orthogonal or independent. 

 

8)      There is no caching in the I2RS agents. 

 

.         Andy - noted a concern that without caching some of updates may
have too much latency. 

 

Please review the whole minutes for all the details. 

 

Sue Hares

 

 

 

       


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]><b>The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds =
</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><b>configuration that is =
intended to not survive a reboot.<o:p></o:p></b></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]><b>The ephemeral datastore is never =
locked.</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>4)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass =
mechanisms<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Pane 1: normal configuration =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Pane 2:&nbsp; ephemeral state =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; The I2RS agent and configuration software on <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the node&nbsp; must handle this =
complexity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>5)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>The key word &#8220;ephemeral&#8221; can be used =
to identify <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph>Identities which =
are ephemeral in data models.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph>Does anyone have any concerns with adding this =
to <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph>Yang? <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>6)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>&nbsp;Each client has a priority.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>Multiple clients may share a priority, =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>AAA or other external mechanisms =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>provides the client ID and priority =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>An =
authorized I2RS client must have both<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>A client Id and a =
priority, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>d.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>System administrators set up the number =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>of client IDs and priorities within a =
system. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>7)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>I2RS has defined 3 ways of handling errors =
&nbsp;in order<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph>To be efficient =
in the processing. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>&#8220;all-or-nothing&#8221;, <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>&#8220;stop-on-error&#8221;, <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level2 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c.<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>&#8220;continue on error&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo5'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>If these three are supported, it is the =
agent which must support the complexity to support all =
three.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo5'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>The WG must consider whether for the =
initial release we limit the agent by doing &#8220;all or =
nothing&#8221;. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>One issues with this is grouping changes =
into a related group. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>The failure in one part of a =
related&nbsp; group could cause errors in the related <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>&#8220;continue on error&#8221; were only =
meant for variables which are orthogonal or independent. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l4 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>8)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>There is no caching in the I2RS agents. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo6'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>Andy &#8211; noted a concern that without =
caching some of updates may have too much latency. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Please =
review the whole minutes for all the details. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue =
Hares<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
p></div></body></html>
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<body>I2RS Minutes&nbsp;<br><br><br>1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 =
]<br><br>2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[10:05 - 10:15]<br>&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;proceedings&#x=
2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides&#x=
2d;interim&#x2d;2015&#x2d;i2rs&#x2d;15&#x2d;1&#x2e;pdf">https:&#x2F;&#x2F=
;www.ietf.org&#x2F;proceedings&#x2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2=
F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides-interim-2015-i2rs-15-1.pdf</a><br><br>3) =
Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30]&nbsp;<br><br>4) I2RS Protocol =
Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]<br><a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;proceedings&#x=
2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides&#x=
2d;interim&#x2d;2015&#x2d;i2rs&#x2d;15&#x2d;2&#x2e;pdf">https:&#x2F;&#x2F=
;www.ietf.org&#x2F;proceedings&#x2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2=
F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides-interim-2015-i2rs-15-2.pdf</a><br><a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;proceedings&#x=
2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides&#x=
2d;interim&#x2d;2015&#x2d;i2rs&#x2d;15&#x2d;3&#x2e;pdf">https:&#x2F;&#x2F=
;www.ietf.org&#x2F;proceedings&#x2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2=
F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides-interim-2015-i2rs-15-3.pdf</a><br><br>5) =
Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]<br>7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - =
11:15]<br>8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30]&nbsp;<br><br><strong>Slides: =
I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary</strong><br><br>Slides&nbsp; showing =
ephemeral requirements 1-5&nbsp;<br><br><br>Discussion:&nbsp;<br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Kent -&nbsp; in slide 7, in the text&nbsp; =
&quot;Each client ... if a client is not in the i2rs client list, then =
it has worst priority&quot;, Is there actually a set of =
clients.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Is this different that the list of clients =
that already exist?&nbsp; When I first saw that my thought was that if =
the client was not present,&nbsp;</li><li>The edit request would be =
refused.&nbsp; We do not allow edits from clients which are unknown to =
the system.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: In the actual protocol examples, we have =
not worked out how the clients identify each other.&nbsp; This could be =
done via an attribute.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>In the =
architecture and in the requirements, we have said you must (mutually) =
identify an I2RS client.&nbsp;</li><li>The I2RS client is the only =
identity approve dto go to an I2RS RIB.&nbsp;</li><li>This limited =
access of the I2RS RIB is the way the I2RS architecture has been =
designed.&nbsp;</li></ul><li><br></li><li>Joel Halpern - We don&#x27;t =
necessarily require a separate client list.&nbsp; AAA must provide a =
priority.</li><li>Andy: There is a little yang table in the original =
propose that assigns a priority to a client (see table below).</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>One thought was to have unique priority&#x2F;client =
matches so you would not have to save the client IDs.</li><li>If you do =
not have unique priority&#x2F;client matches, you will need save the =
client ids.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>container =
i2rs-clients {<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf max-clients =
{&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; config =
false;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mandatory =
true;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type uint32 =
{<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; range =
&quot;1 =
..max&quot;;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; list i2rs-client =
{<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; key =
name;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
uniquepriority;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 leaf name { ... }<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
leaf priority { ...}<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br>}<br><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel Halpern: AAA must provide a priority.&nbsp; =
Not that the priority will be unique per client.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>The full unique would be the priority plus =
unique.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy - There =
will not be any standar way to have the priority mapping set within =
the&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>&nbsp;the only way to figure this =
out will be fully external?</li></ul><li>Sue - The mapping expected to =
be loaded from something external.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>What happens if the client id and priority does not =
exist upon the box?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>What happens if AAA =
doesn&#x27;t give the client ID and priority ?&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Joel - =
You can&#x27;t accept a request from the client that does not have a =
client and priority.</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The bottom line is =
that client is not authorized.</li></ul><li>Sue - What if the client is =
authorized, but AAA didn&#x27;t give priority?</li><li>Joel - If the =
client does not have both ID and priority, then&nbsp; it&#x27;s not =
authorized.</li><li>Sue: Authorization has to include ID and =
priority&nbsp;</li><li>Kent - I agree with joel.&nbsp;&nbsp; You have a =
list of clients that are supported (ephemeral and =
non-ephemeral).&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Of the ephemeral =
clients, there is a subset that is allowed to ephemeral edits =
(writes).&nbsp;</li><li>We want to have a bounded list of datastores =
where each datastore is a mapping to an ephemeral =
client.&nbsp;</li><li>If the client is ephemeral, has a priority, but =
does not have a mapping to the data store, then this client is =
denied.&nbsp;</li><li>Only an administrator with privileges&nbsp; can =
change the mapping between clients and data stores.&nbsp;</li><li>list =
of: datastore --- client -- priority&nbsp; (sorted in order of priority =
per datastore).&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Andy - the original suggestion was to =
put it in the nacm group entries.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>I just put it into its own table. Whether it is in =
the NACM vs. table is irrelevant.</li><li>Joel is saying this table must =
be loaded from external sources.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Kent:&nbsp; At IETF 93 I stood at the mic, is it =
okay that clients have unique priorities?&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>This would elminate the chance that we would have =
two clients at the same priority.&nbsp;</li><li>We didn&#x27;t pursue =
this discussion completely.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>In my mind it is a =
sorted&nbsp; list. Whether this list is inside&#x2F;outside NACM can be =
debated.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy - nacm =
allows user mappings to be external and not just local.</li></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel - Can&#x27;t see why we&#x27;d ever allow a =
client to be authorized with the priority.&nbsp;</li><li>Kent: I agree =
(that you need each client to have a priority).&nbsp; We need an example =
to see how this work.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: Action item 1:&nbsp; I will =
create an example of the client with priority and =
client.</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: Other =
comments</li><li>Joel - staring at #5, trying to understand it.&nbsp; We =
had side meetings in prague.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Side =
meetings in prague.&nbsp; How can each client can have its own =
pane?&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Clients have to know when there&#x27;s =
overlap.</li><li>Clients have to see what A and B wrote.&nbsp;</li><li>I =
cannot see how they can be operating in separate panes of =
glass.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Sue: Can I pick up item 5 after we go through =
examples?&nbsp;</li><li>Joel:I&#x27;m willing to wait for =
examples.</li><li>Sue: I believe the conflicts should provide the =
notifications.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: I am ok with an =
example.&nbsp;</li></ul><br>[00:13:22 at recording]&nbsp;<br><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: item #6 had lots of the discussion in the =
protocol list.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>A Partial operation is =
one where a subset of thewritten data is&nbsp; not appliedbecause of =
better priority for that node. A partial operation is only allowed if =
the error-option is stop-on-error orcontinue-on-error.</li><li>For =
example, you have 100 routes and on the 20th of the 100 routes you have =
a problem.&nbsp;</li><li>You have two choices once you get to item =
20.&nbsp; You can stop or you can continue writing =
21-100.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Joel: The key to whole debate is =
NETCONF does not have order within elements.</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>You cannot do meaningful do stop on =
error.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Kent: In this draft, we are focusing on =
RESTCONF.&nbsp; The Yang Patch operation has =
ordering.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: All of our examples have RESTCONF.&nbsp; I =
put NETCONF here is section.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: While continue on error =
is well defined, it is a challenge to utilize NETCONF because of some of =
the ways that NETCONF communicates success and failure.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>If you do not have ordering, =
&quot;all-or-nothing&quot; is defined, &quot;continue on error&quot; is =
defined, but&nbsp; Stop on error is not defined.</li><li>This is a =
problem if we used NETCONF.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Sue: For the rest of the =
discussion, we will be using RESTCONF. I am trying to get a solution we =
can work with.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Yang Patch is being =
defined for RESTCONF.&nbsp;</li><li>It is hoped it would be applied to =
NETCONF in the long term.</li></ul></ul>&nbsp;<br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: There are more ways to have an =
error.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: The error handling in the architecture =
was not written about all the error handling.</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>The error handling was written about the priority =
error handling.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: =
The syntactical checking could cause an error.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: This =
simply isn&#x27;t true.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The =
&quot;stop on error&quot;, &quot;all-or-nothing&quot;, =
&quot;continue-on-error&quot; were behavior for any type of =
error.&nbsp;</li><li>These were not just&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Sue: Would =
you restate this for me as I thought that&#x27;s what I said.&nbsp; It =
would help me a lot.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: =
Bullet 6 (slide 8) is about the priority error condition, and not all =
the condition.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Error checking is =
broader than bullet 6.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: I have not see clients take advantage with =
this point.&nbsp; It is complicated on the client side.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Jan made the comments a few interim.&nbsp; I am not =
convinced anyone aided.&nbsp;</li><li>If you add more options, it goes =
slower.</li></ul></ul>&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Kent: If you =
want the continue on error to make sense, there must be a bunch of =
disjoint errors.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>To continue on =
error, it must be a disjoint set of edits.&nbsp;</li><li>The problem is =
you want a grouping of edits.</li><li>NETCONF currently does all the =
configuration or nothing, without focus on =
grouping.&nbsp;</li><li>Continue on error does not make sense of you are =
working with a group in NETCONF or =
I2RS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: If =
you want groups of things, you must send them in different =
messages.</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Only if you have a set of =
unrelated edits can you send them in one message that has continue on =
error.</li><li>The other problem is &quot;all-or-nothing&quot; is a lot =
of data that you have to buffer and analyzed.&nbsp;</li><li>The NETCONF =
folks are used to &quot;all-or-nothing&quot; pain.&nbsp;</li><li>All of =
these options (&quot;all-or-nothing&quot;, =
&quot;continue-on-error&quot;, &quot;stop-on-error&quot;) have =
pain.&nbsp;</li><li>We could just start with &quot;all-or-nothing =
because the agent would have only one type to implement.</li><li>The =
agent has to be able to support all the modes.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Dean: =
Actually, it was Jan that was leaving.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Continue on error is valuable only when you have =
series of automatic functialities.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Autonomic =
functionalities are self-sufficient between functions.&nbsp;</li><li>You =
can put a series of autonomic functionalities together because if one =
fails, the others can continue because there are no dependencies on the =
functionality.&nbsp;</li><li>I agree with Joel.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Kent: =
Joel clarified that the edit will be an independent bundle.</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Continue on error depends on the kind of =
error.&nbsp;</li><li>For example, there is a list of interfaces, and you =
can specify only up to so many interfaces. The edit is trying to add one =
more interface that the maximum allowed (For example, 100 interfaces and =
the edit is adding 101).&nbsp; This error is not =
recoverable.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>The other type of error is the error we =
spoke of before where due to the higher priority, your edit is not going =
through. This type of error is OK to go one.&nbsp; When the panes of =
glass, this would be error.</li></ul><li>Sue: Any more =
comments?&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Jeff: One of the =
interesting heachaches is, if the objects your client is setting has =
dependencies.</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>This creates a situation =
which is problematic.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: As a client, you would not send a message =
with &quot;continue-on-error&quot; when the data the client is setting =
has dependencies among it.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The only =
case you will use continue on error is if you have no dependencies =
[autonomic functions].&nbsp;</li><li>If there are dependencies, you need =
to use one of the other modes.</li><li>The idea is the client will use =
the mode that is appropriate for the data.&nbsp;</li><li>The idea with =
the modes (&quot;all-or-nothing&quot;, &quot;continue-on-error&quot;, =
&quot;stop-on-error&quot;) was to be able to ship as much data as =
possible, as fast as possible.&nbsp; When the client could use =
&quot;continue-on-error&quot;, the client used continue on =
error.&nbsp;</li><li>If you want to ask the WG to relax this to say the =
agents have &quot;all-or-nothing&quot; because of the complexity of the =
agent suypporting three modes, this is a reasonable =
discussion.&nbsp;</li><li>We could discuss this on the general =
list.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Jeff: What Joel =
is discussing, is not relevant to my point. The issue we have worry =
about for &quot;continue-on-error&quot; functionality beause you have =
independent stuff, but based on the error the agent must wants to =
&quot;roll-back&quot; the configuration that was done, there is an =
implicit understanding that the agent have to maintain the state to be =
able to undo the patch.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Dean: When you are saying roll-back, let us go for =
the following changes:</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>original =
value&nbsp;</li><li>Change 1 works&nbsp;</li><li>change 2 =
fails&nbsp;</li><li>change 3&nbsp;</li><li>What are roll-back are you =
wishing to do.&nbsp; Roll back to pre-change 2 (aka change 1) or are you =
rolling back to the original state?&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Jeff: This =
is part of the question.&nbsp; When you allow partial completion, at =
what point does the rollback come to?&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy may be rolling his eyes.&nbsp; Coding for this =
is very difficult.&nbsp;</li><li>Even if the system told you exactly =
what is going on.&nbsp;</li><li>For example, if you had a list of 100 =
items, and 80% completed.&nbsp;</li><li>Is this 80% completion Ok for =
the client?&nbsp;</li><li>We would need to build into the error =
notification structure, the information that tells you the 20% that =
failed. Any implicit behavior that the partial application is =
implying.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: It does =
follow logically.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The first part I =
agree with.&nbsp; I agree that if you have partial success, you must be =
able to report what failed.&nbsp;</li><li>The client must be able to =
figure out what to do when it receives these reports of the =
error.&nbsp;</li><li>If the client sends things in multiple requests, it =
has just as much issue whether the requests are sent in a bunch, and we =
get the error reports.&nbsp; Or if the requests are sent one at a =
time.</li><li>This is the nature of the I2RS client and an network =
management client.&nbsp;</li><li>Not all changes can be contained within =
one message anyway.&nbsp;</li><li>If the I2RS client knows the items =
being sent are independent, then it should be able to handle =
this.&nbsp;</li><li>If the I2RS client knows there are dependencies and =
thought the bunching of the data within a message would work, it must =
handle the failure for =
&quot;continue-on-error&quot;.</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Jeff: My focus is the =
agent.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: The agent =
is not to undo anything it has partially done. This is the client&#x27;s =
job.&nbsp;</li><li>Jeff: I disagree.&nbsp; It is the clients job that =
introduces a significant anount of complexity in the client. Is this so =
complicated in the agent that we should discount the partial completion =
in the client? RESTCONF already disallows any partial completion in the =
agent.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>This is where Kent =
corrects me about PATCH and how this is suppose to work in the =
cleint.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: Is this a =
really good discussion, would it be beneficial to go through some of our =
examples, and then come back to partial operationa and =
caching?&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>I&#x27;ve got a time check =
at 10:37pm.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: The =
three error conditions (&quot;all-or-nothing&quot;, =
&quot;continue-on-error&quot;, and &quot;stop-on-error&quot;) have =
little to do with the panes of glass or the caching issues. This is a =
protocol issue, but it does not have anything to do with panes of glass =
or caching.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: To go to =
what Kent&#x27;s saying, if a I2RS agent does not treat overlap as an =
error, then the I2RS agent is caching the lower priority stuff to =
overwrite later on.</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: The =
architecture specifically says you shall not cache. When I saw you were =
going to specifically propose caching on item 7 (slide 9) - then I have =
a problem with this point.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Allowing, =
but not requiring caching does not provide a situation where the client =
can know what the I2RS agent is going to do with its =
requests.&nbsp;</li><li>For example, the lower priority work could be =
&quot;not applied&quot; so the total request would be partially applied. =
Later on, the request could be fully aplied.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: The I2RS client could be notified by the I2RS =
agent returning a status whether the lower priority information cached =
it or not.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: If you =
allow the caching and non-caching case to both be allowed, then the =
client will be required to design for both cases.&nbsp; Talk about =
complexity...&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: The complexity I&#x27;m trying to =
avoid is the latency when the higher priority stuff is taken out, and =
the lower priority stuff takes a while to be uploaded using =
notification.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>I am concerned about =
latency than the complexity&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: This is a big change in the design of I2RS as =
shown in the architecture.&nbsp;</li></ul><br>4) I2RS Protocol Strawman =
[10:25 - 10:45]<br><br><strong>Andy&#x27;s presentation of =
slides</strong><br>&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;proceedings&#x=
2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides&#x=
2d;interim&#x2d;2015&#x2d;i2rs&#x2d;15&#x2d;2&#x2e;pdf">https:&#x2F;&#x2F=
;www.ietf.org&#x2F;proceedings&#x2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2=
F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides-interim-2015-i2rs-15-2.pdf</a><br><br>Disc=
ussion:&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: The openconfig is =
using the intended config, applied config, and oiperationally derived =
data.&nbsp;</li><li>Kent: It is TBD whether the applied configuration is =
above or below the orange line. We are thinking that the data mode for =
the intended configuration is the same as the applied =
configuration.</li><li>Andy: Even in openconfig stuff, the applied =
configuration is changed to config false.</li><li>Kent: You are =
correct.&nbsp; This is the openconfig solution model. in the =
kwatsen-netmod-opstate draft we put the applied configuration as config =
true.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li><a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;datatracker&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;doc&#x=
2F;draft&#x2d;kwatsen&#x2d;netmod&#x2d;opstate&#x2F;">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;d=
atatracker.ietf.org&#x2F;doc&#x2F;draft-kwatsen-netmod-opstate&#x2F;</a><=
/li></ul><li>Andy: This is correct.&nbsp; It does not matter whether it =
is another.</li><li>Dean: Did anyone body think how long the the =
intended configuratino and applied configuration to be out of =
sync?&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: This is a long discussion going on in the =
netmod with the openconfig stuff.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>For =
google, it is a long time.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Dean: For everyone, it is =
a long time.&nbsp; You have this inbetween state that you do not know =
what state the network is in.&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: Not if you have an =
operation that retrieves the actual values.&nbsp;</li><li>Kent: There is =
always the ability to get hte applied configuration from the =
system.&nbsp; Whether or not the intended configuration has been =
applied, it can take forever.&nbsp; You can get the applied and intended =
configuration</li><li>Dean: I agree, but there are ....&nbsp; We can =
take this problem offline.&nbsp;</li><li>[Slide 5]&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: =
The purpose of this tiny little model is to show how the ephemeral data =
store will interact with the config=3Dfalse nodes.&nbsp; We do not have =
to spend a lot of time on config=3Dtrue nodes. The one that is not as =
clear is the over writing a config=3Dfalse.</li><li>[slide =
6]</li><li>Andy: The desired temperature maps to the intended =
configuration.&nbsp; actual value maps to the applied configuration =
(config=3Dfalse).&nbsp;</li><li>[slide 7]&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: Comparison =
the desired-temp =3D intended (</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Some of the =
stuff the openconfig has open issue.&nbsp;</li><li>Doing a diff on these =
two things, assumes&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Joel: actual temperature is not =
the applied configuration.&nbsp; Applied configuration is the setting of =
desired-temp.&nbsp; The actual temperature is the derived operational =
state.&nbsp;</li><li>Jeff: There is a modeling issue. What I perceive =
actual temp is standalone operational temperature showing what the =
current temperature is.&nbsp; The configuration &quot;desired-temp&quot; =
is what you want to get.&nbsp; You example tries to show what =
operational state is doing in actual-temp.</li><li>Joel: I agree with =
Jeff.&nbsp; actual-temp is orthogonal as (derived) operational =
state.&nbsp;</li><li>Alia: What about calling it &quot;goal-temp&quot; =
for the applied configuration.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: &quot;goal-temp&quot; =
would be applied intentiona.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: actual-temp is =
derived operational state.&nbsp; The system needs to compare the applied =
temperature with the actual temperature in order to know when to turn =
off.&nbsp;</li><li>Jeff: What you are trying to represent is that the =
I2RS system is reading the intended configuration which is the original =
configuration overwritten by the ephemeral state.&nbsp; You are trying =
to compare the intended configuration against the applied =
configuration?&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: Yes, this is correct.&nbsp; =
Joel is right, the actual temperature is just a derived operational =
state.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel:&nbsp; The actual applied temperature =
configuration is different that the intended due to the lag in applying =
the configuration.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>This is the =
configuration application delays that the openconfiguration people are =
talking about.&nbsp;</li><li>The applied configuration =
&quot;desired-temp&quot; is understandable, but this is not actual =
temp.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Andy: By standalone, it is a temperature sensor =
that has nothing to do with the temperature system that is turning on =
and off the airconditioner.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: I agree. It is just a =
sensor.&nbsp; The one inside the ephemeral state would be =
&quot;goal-temp&quot; and not the applied =
temperature.&nbsp;</li><li>Kent: For applied configuration, it is =
interesting enough to have the ephemeral data store.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>A thermostat is intuitively simple.&nbsp;</li><li>A =
thermostat has a desired temperature and a thermostat.&nbsp;</li><li>The =
thermostat sends commands to the dataplane for a call for heat or a call =
for cooling.</li><li>I&#x27;m thinking about the ephemeral edit be an =
override on the actual-temp or would it be a lower level call for heat =
or colling.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: It is =
perfectly reasonable to have these temperature, but I do not know why we =
are talking openconfig stuff in terms of I2RS.&nbsp; I wait to see what =
it is.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>jeff: I would not put =
a &quot;goal&quot; temperature into this discussion. Let us center this =
on the ephemeral state.&nbsp; For the purposes of the ephemeral state we =
care about&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>1) what have we =
programmed to survive reboot (20 celius)</li><li>2) we have a different =
routes.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul>&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: =
Let&#x27;s go to the RESTCONF example, and then over to the Route =
example.&nbsp;</li><li>Jeff: This is perfect example:</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>We have the original temperature,</li><li>We have =
the ephemeral temperature state,</li><li>The operational state is =
completely distinct.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: The goal temperature fits for the =
&#x27;diag-temperature&#x27;. Let&#x27;s say you were trying to test =
whether this system work.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The =
goal temperature was &quot;50 celius&quot; without getting the =
temperature.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: That =
is very diffrent than goal temperature.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>You want to the system was measured system from the =
outside world &quot;70&quot; degrees.</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: I&#x27;m checking to see if you want to over =
write values in the measured system.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>If I2RS only focuses on over writing the intended =
configuration, this is great.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: This is why I was confused by the =
example.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Andy: Sue needs to =
go through the routing example to show the value for this over writing =
the measured system.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Jeff I =
would expect that you would want to temporarily override what intended =
configuration sets.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>For example, the =
config test temperature.</li><li>The thermostate would have a =
config-test temperture that it would compare the configuration =
temperature against.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Joel: I agree with =
you.&nbsp;</li></ul><br>I2RS RIB State<br><br><a =
href=3D"https&#x3a;&#x2F;&#x2F;www&#x2e;ietf&#x2e;org&#x2F;proceedings&#x=
2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides&#x=
2d;interim&#x2d;2015&#x2d;i2rs&#x2d;15&#x2d;3&#x2e;pdf">https:&#x2F;&#x2F=
;www.ietf.org&#x2F;proceedings&#x2F;interim&#x2F;2015&#x2F;10&#x2F;07&#x2=
F;i2rs&#x2F;slides&#x2F;slides-interim-2015-i2rs-15-3.pdf</a><br><br>Sue:=
 Let me dive into the routing RIB.&nbsp; I&#x27;m sure you&#x27;ve all =
read it.&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>[slide =
5&#x2F;6]&nbsp;</li><li>route-index - uint64</li><li>nexthop-id - =
uint32&nbsp;</li><li>Here&#x27;s a thermostat equivalent:&nbsp; (slide =
7)&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>intended config:&nbsp; =
128.1&#x2F;16 nexhop id 1 (192.1.1.1)&nbsp;</li><li>applied =
config:&nbsp;&nbsp; 128.1&#x2F;16 nexthop id 1 =
(192.1.1.1.)&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>derived state:&nbsp; =
route-installed-state =3D installed&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Any routing =
state&nbsp; - should have installed&nbsp;</li><li>[This is installed =
state in general state]</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>[slide 8]</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>scheduler =
I2RS client on this slide installs the normal configuration</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop id 1 --&gt; intended =
configuratino</li><li>128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop id 1 --&gt; applied =
configuratino&nbsp;</li></ul><li>IPS I2RS client replaces the intended =
config with ephemeral config&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>The IDS&#x2F;IPS that replaces the 128.2&#x2F;16 =
nexthop 2 in ephemeral state which is loaded in the&nbsp; intended =
configuration.&nbsp;</li><li>Actual configuration =3D 128.2&#x2F;16 =
nexthop 1&nbsp; (installed&#x2F;active flag)&nbsp;</li></ul><li>slide =
9&nbsp;</li><li>IPS I2RS client requests the intended state to go to the =
applied configuration.&nbsp;</li><li>Now, the actual configuration =
changes:&nbsp;</li><li>Actual configuration =3D 128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop =
2&nbsp;</li><li>Intended configuration - should notify the scheduler =
client it has 128.2&#x2F;16 overwritten&nbsp;</li><li>Applied =
configuration - should notify to the schedule client it has =
128.2&#x2F;16 overwritten&nbsp;</li><li>actual configuration - should =
notify that the new actual sttus is 128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop =
2.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Jeff: What you are =
saying here is that the reader of the configuration would be able to see =
both of these things:&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>(ephemeral =
state and intended configuration) and applied configuration.</li><li>We =
have two model options to get the keying of it:&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop 1&nbsp; - instance =
1&nbsp;</li><li>128.2&#x2F;16 nexthop 2&nbsp; - instance =
2&nbsp;</li></ul><li>we have priority or administrative distance that =
could choose being the two things trying to install.</li><li>We do not =
need ephemeral to do this function.&nbsp;</li><li>A pane of glass is not =
needed in this example.</li></ul><li>Sue:&nbsp; We are overwriting what =
is active.&nbsp;</li><li>Jeff: If we are doing an over-writing, who sees =
two of these at the same time?&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>You =
have a reader the status that wants to see the merged view of the panes =
of glass.&nbsp;</li><li>The other two views are the configuration =
datastore and the ephemeral datastore.&nbsp;</li><li>I would not call =
these derived state.&nbsp;</li><li>The merged configuration view is the =
applied configuration state.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Sue: The ephemeral over =
writes something in the intended config.&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>When the ephemeral config in the intended =
configuration goes to the applied configuration, do you want to track =
which configuration pieces are coming from ephemeral and which are =
coming from original configuration?</li></ul><li>Joel: Why do we care =
for I2RS purposes what is under configuration?</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Applied configuration is the result of the decision =
process from the I2RS scheduler client, and the IPS =
datastore.&nbsp;</li><li>Let&#x27;s start out of the debate of the =
applied configuration.</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue:&nbsp; Andy and I would be happy if there is =
not an override on the &quot;config=3Dfalse&quot; data =
store.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Let me give you an example to =
confirm this point.&nbsp;</li><li>For example, an IDS&#x2F;IPS system =
with an IPS I2RS client.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The =
IDS&#x2F;IPS portion of the system detects that the DDoS routes are no =
longer needed (DDoS all clear status).&nbsp;</li><li>The attack has =
stopped, and we need to remove a bunch of routes in the applied =
configuration.&nbsp;</li><li>It is easy to remove the DDOS routes in the =
intended configuration.&nbsp;</li><li>If you want to remove the DDOS =
routes quickly in the applied configuration, you must have a thread that =
indicates these are ephemeral routes.&nbsp;</li><li>If you will wait for =
the intended to over write the applied configuration, this will take out =
lots of complexity.</li></ul></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Alia: I&#x27;m not clear about the difference =
between the config=3Dtrue, and the config=3Dfalse functionality</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>What goes into the devices for the applied =
configuration&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>original configuration =
+ ephemeral -- gets installed&nbsp;</li><li>I do not think the applied =
routes comes from this mechanisms</li></ul><li>We could do resolution of =
route by policy of administrative distance&nbsp;</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>static class of config</li><li>static class of =
ephemeral state&nbsp;</li><li>Administrative distance would then install =
the route to tie break between the RIB.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>If they are =
both coming in as the protocol, I do not think you will get multiple =
routes in the RIB.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: =
I think we were thinking of the administrative distance =
mechanism.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>However, our question is =
do we need to complexity.&nbsp;</li><li>We do not to have a flag that =
tags ephemeral route.&nbsp;</li><li>You have answered a lot of confusion =
at once.&nbsp;</li><li>Ephemeral exists above the config=3Dtrue =
line.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Alia: What are =
the implications of config=3Dfalse?&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: Config false is simply the applied =
configuration in the devices.</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>For example, =
if you have a control plane which creates the intended config that is =
the merge of ephemeral and normal configuration.&nbsp; At some points =
the routes are going from there to forwarding engines inside of high =
speed forwarding engines or other boxes.&nbsp;</li><li>Going from =
intended configuration to applied configuration is a normal =
process.</li><li>If we need something to short cut that addresses just =
the ephemeral state, we need a flag that indicates the ephemeral pieces =
of config=3Dfalse data.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>It is tricky to deal with =
this data, but it is possible if we keep a flag.&nbsp;</li><li>We wonder =
about the benefit of keeping that ephemeral flag.&nbsp;</li><li>What I =
have heard from you, Joel, and Jeff is that complexity is not =
needed.&nbsp;</li><li>We will take it out.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Alia: The reason I was pushing on config=3Dtrue =
versus config=3Dfalse being able to have the ephemeral configuration be =
able to have read access to dynamically learned state. This is a =
separate aspect.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>I was looking to see =
if there was a tie between the two =
questions.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: I did =
not indicate what happens if the route is tied to an interface what =
would happen in the applied configuration.</li><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Rob Shakir in the netmod last Thursday indicated =
that applied configuration would not show up with the interface and the =
applied route if you did not have a valid =
interface.&nbsp;</li><li>Therefore, what happens applied the =
configuration without the derived =
state.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: This =
is a different problem that we are trying to =
solve.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue:&nbsp; If we have panes of glass, the panes of =
glass are in the intended config.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The =
concept is you have the configuration in one pane.</li><li>In a second =
pane you have the I2RS ephemeral state.</li><li>What happens if you have =
multiple clients working on each of these two =
panes.&nbsp;</li><li>Should multiple clients be able to change things in =
each of these two panes?&nbsp;</li><li>For example: Client 2, =
128.2&#x2F;16 nh 3, priority 3.&nbsp; Client IPS 128.2&#x2F;16 nh 2, =
priority 5.&nbsp;</li><li>In the end it has to&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Joel: =
2 clients with 2 priorities, and in the end the system will only apply 1 =
thing.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Two panes of glass - is what =
each client saw.&nbsp;</li><li>Client 2 - writes 128.2&#x2F;16 at =
priority 3 and reads it back.&nbsp;</li><li>Client IPS&nbsp; writes =
128.2&#x2F;16&nbsp; at priority 5, and see it.&nbsp;</li><li>Client 2 - =
must get a notification that his work is not =
accepted.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Sue: In this case, there are 3 panes of =
glass:&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>pane 1: IPS&nbsp;</li><li>pane =
2: Client 3</li><li>pane 3: Ephemeral state.&nbsp;</li><li>I should have =
drawn this point.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Andy: The panes of glass at the =
highest level is running datastore and ephemeral =
datastore.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The system comes up the =
effective configuration, then these are the only two data =
stores.&nbsp;</li><li>If there is no caching in I2RS, then a pane of =
glass per client is not helpful, it is implementation detail.</li><li>If =
there is no pane of glass per client, then your edit goes in all the =
way, partially or not at all.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: This is the way I have understood =
it.&nbsp;</li><li>Andy: If you really think the feedback loop is =
adequate, then this will be fine.</li><li>Joel: When we analyzed it =
earlier in I2RS, we found that when a client does something and then =
things happen.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>You create a lot of =
complexity to have the client figure our the intermediate states (the =
things that happen).&nbsp;</li><li>We decided these intermediate states =
introduced more complexity than the states were worth.&nbsp;</li><li>You =
will need to create the time delays to complexity.&nbsp;</li><li>The =
latency.&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Andy: In this example, the client 2 is going =
to change what it wants to do based on what IPS is =
doing?&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: When IPS over writes client 2, then client 2 =
is likely to say &quot;my 128.2&#x2F;16 nh 3&quot; is =
gone.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>I better register for =
notification when IPS route goes away.&nbsp; When IPS goes away, I will =
figure out what really needs to happen.&nbsp;</li><li>It is really hard =
for client 2 to delete the state when IPS has state over writing it =
state.&nbsp;</li><li>He can delete it, but he cannot =
write.&nbsp;</li><li>The I2RS WG had an =
extended&nbsp;</li></ul><li>Andy: I think your system is more =
complex.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: Andy and Joel is a good point.&nbsp; If the =
ephemeral state is with 2 panes of glass (intended and ephemeral), does =
it block people from doing caching in an interoperable =
fashion.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: Caching in an interoperable fashion =
requires that the client knows that caching is occuring, and be able to =
correct cache saved over time. This includes additional =
mechanisms.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>As we current suggested, =
you cannot do caching of over written data plus =
reversions.&nbsp;</li><li>The architecture statement states you do not =
do it.&nbsp;</li><li>For some I2RS agents to do this, and some agents to =
not do this feature means that I2RS clients have to cope with the =
complexity of both caching and non-caching =
clients.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: I have my =
answer on this point.&nbsp; We will take out the caching for the initial =
simple protocol.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Thank you for the =
input on caching pieces for the first round.&nbsp;</li><li>Andy and Kent =
felt it was just as easy to have caching as to not have =
caching.&nbsp;</li><li>However, I do not want to revisit something I2RS =
WG had a decision on.</li><li>I&#x27;ll note it as =
something&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: Andy =
and Kent I am willing to&nbsp;</li><li>Kent: It seems we are already =
having to do caching between I2RS ephemeral and the static =
configuration&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>When the ephemeral is =
removed, the static configuration is left behind.&nbsp;</li><li>We are =
already having two panes of glass (ephemeral and static) =
.&nbsp;</li><li>Why not carry this forward to multiple panes of glass =
and that pain.&nbsp;</li><li>I understand the decision was made =
before.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Joel: I agree =
that the model in this system is a 2 pane of glass =
systems.&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>The system must manage =
removing the ephemeral state and going back to the configuration =
state.&nbsp;</li><li>The ephemeral state goes away in total during =
reboot.&nbsp;</li><li>The ephemeral state goes away in pieces when =
clients remove it.&nbsp;</li><li>It is the ephemeral-ephemeral =
interactions you are discussing.</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Kent: I pointed out that we are already in the two =
panes of glass with ephemeral.&nbsp;</li></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Sue: I would like to invite people who are =
intersted in the Hackathon&nbsp;</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Anyone who =
is interested in the hack-athon.&nbsp;</li><li>Our simple Hack-athon =
work would be to:</li><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Add&#x2F;delete link in =
L3 v4 topology</li><li>Add&#x2F;delete&#x2F;change v4 route in L3 RIB =
with priority and overlapping =
routes&nbsp;</li><li>add&#x2F;delete&#x2F;change FB-RIB, and fall =
through to default route.&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ul><li>The purpose is to get =
any additional experience.&nbsp;</li></ul></ul><br><ul =
class=3D"bullet"><li>Kent: There is a 4 session on Sunday, 1 LADA =
tutorial, and yang and editing session.&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: This is =
Saturday hack-a-thon.&nbsp; I hope on Sunday people will go to =
session.&nbsp;</li><li>Joel: It has 2 day work (Saturday and =
Sunday)&nbsp;&nbsp;</li><li>Sue: I am looking for people to join =
me.&nbsp;</li></ul><br>Conclusion: Thank you for your patience and =
help.&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>We will find 3-4 deep dive =
people to push this forward in NETCONF group.&nbsp;</li><li>We got =
started in August with the strawman.&nbsp;</li><li>Thank you for all =
comments and help.</li></ul><br>Andy: Whether or not we need the =
ephemeral key word.<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>How do you tell the I2RS =
what is compliant?&nbsp;</li><li>Do I have to provide I2RS for every =
config true;</li><li>Even it is not able to flag =
config=3Dfalse.</li></ul><br>Joel: We will not want to support the =
entire ephemeral.&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Good =
question.&nbsp;</li></ul><br>Sue: Would send it to the mail list?&nbsp; =
I will try to grab some people.&nbsp;<br><ul class=3D"bullet"><li>Thank =
you for all your helps and comments.&nbsp;</li><li>Kent, Andy, and =
Jeff.&nbsp;</li><li><br></li></ul><br></body>=0A=
</html>=0A=

------=_NextPart_000_05C9_01D102AD.642D4060--


From nobody Fri Oct  9 13:16:42 2015
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References: <7E24547E-B42B-46E2-AF76-F7639D61963F@nic.cz> <D23D3103.34500%acee@cisco.com> <D75D655A-4F25-4CDF-8485-2A0A06E1DD02@nic.cz>
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:16:39 -0500
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From: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" <acee@cisco.com>, NETMOD WG <netmod@ietf.org>, Routing WG <rtgwg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>
>> On 09 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Lada,
>> I2RS is not chartered to do the base models. There are other routing
>> models that reference routing-cfg and even in-progress implementations.
>
> Of course, I am aware of them. However, assuming that changes resulting f=
rom I2RS operation will be available for inspection as state data to NETCON=
F/RESTCONF clients, and vice versa, it's important that the those routing d=
ata models and I2RS data models remain compatible and coordinated.
>
> A data model for RIBs should IMO be developed simultaneously for both pur=
poses, and common parts implemented as groupings so as to be reusable witho=
ut copying-and-pasting.
>
>>
>> On 10/9/15, 4:13 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka"
>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide the
>>> relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and
>>> netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same management
>>> data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:
>>>
>>> 1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment
>>> ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.
>>
>> This would seem to be the obvious choice.
>
> I agree, and so far it can be done quite easily.
>
>>
>>>
>>> 2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would address
>>> only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for advanced
>>> routers will be done elsewhere.
>>>
>>> 3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.
>>
>> A fourth option would be for me to take over ownership, move the work to
>> the RTG WG, and we=E2=80=99d recruit some strong authors/reviewers from =
operators
>> and other vendors (involving the ADs in selection).
>

You mean  i2rs-rib-data-model?

Regards,

Behcet
> Yes, that's what I meant.
>
> Thanks, Lada
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Acee
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Opinions?
>>>
>>> Thanks, Lada
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>
>
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Juergen,

which specific objects/ subtrees are you referring to? =20

Essentially, in ietf-network and ietf-network-topology, we have all configu=
ration information.  The same is true for the Layer 3 topology - all config=
uration information.  (I cannot comment on L2 topology as I am not involved=
 there.) =20

Are you saying that we should add an additional branch as a placeholder (an=
d perhaps an augmentation target) for operational data, even if we have not=
 otherwise defined any operational data? =20

The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the "server-provid=
ed" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was also discussed (I am =
not sure if this is what you are referring to).  It is analogous to the oth=
er discussion concerning distinguishing configuration that has been intende=
d, versus one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some to=
pologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies can be populat=
ed by client applications.  We have had discussions in the past whether to =
"split this up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and=
 a (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".  We decided against it for vario=
us reasons - every piece of information would essentially be duplicated ins=
ide the model (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but=
 would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to unnec=
essary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be con=
ducted in two places), more complex validation rules, etc.   =20

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelde=
r
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:22 AM
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhot=
ka@nic.cz>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.o=
rg>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi,

there is a discussion on the yang doctors mailing list about the data model=
 design that mixes state data and configuration data into one subtree and t=
hat uses a data model specific runtime object to identify what is config da=
ta and what is state data. One of the main outcomes of the IAB workshop bac=
k in 2002 was the need to clearly separate configuration from operational s=
tate and this has been driven the design of NETCONF and YANG. YANG data mod=
el validation rules, for example, make a distinction between config true an=
d config false data.
The config true or false property impacts what is returned by NETCONF's get=
-config operation. Also note that config data is not allowed to refer to co=
nfig false data in constraints.

It is unclear why the document does not follow the typical design pattern, =
namely to have a config true subtree

  /networks/network*

and a config false subtree

  /networks-state/network*

Section 3.5 describes this approach in the 3rd paragraph and states "As mos=
t data is defined in those groupings, the amount of additional definitions =
required will be limited." and there are no strong reasons given why this a=
pproach has not been followed.

/js

On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 06:41:34PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> =20
>=20
> draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft
>=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/
>=20
> =20
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology
>=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/
>=20
> =20
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology
>=20
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topolo
> gy/
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Implementation status:=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and=20
> general model.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in f=
uture ODL
> implementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has
> implementations of these topology models to provide details on list or=20
> offlist to the chairs.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Sue Hares
>=20

> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt
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Hi Juergen,

thank you for your notes. =20

Quick comments inline

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelde=
r
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 4:31 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt

A few notes from a quick read of this I-D:

- There are multiple places where the text says network.yang but
  really means ietf-network.yang. The same for network-topology.yang
  and ietf-network-topology.yang.

<ALEX> Will clean this up.
</ALEX>

- The 'organization' and 'contact' are TBD or WILL-BE-DEFINED-LATER.
  I think this needs to be filled in now.

<ALEX> OK
</ALEX>

- There is probably a need to add some copyright etc. text to the
  module descriptions.

<ALEX> OK
</ALEX>

- Instead of putting I-D names into reference clauses, please insert
  instructions for the RFC editor so that the editor knows which
  things need to be replaced with RFC numbers.

<ALEX> OK
</ALEX>

- The description of the typedef link-id says 'The identifier may be
  opaque.' What does that mean? It is an inet:uri after all. If two
  systems populate a link-id, how are they going to come up with the
  same identifier? Is the SHOULD realistic to achieve? The same
  comment applies to the typedef tp-id.

<ALEX> Basically, this says that there may be different convenions=20
used to pick identifiers, and we are not prescribing a specific=20
convention.  You may have different systems which choose to populate=20
link-ids differently, but they are different systems and=20
refer to different links. =20
</ALEX>

- I am not sure whether the security considerations are sufficient.  I
  think it would be fair to point out that topology information is
  most likely information that requires proper protection. See also
  section 3.4 of RFC6087 which points to the template:

  http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/yang-security-guidelines

<ALEX> OK, we can expand.
</ALEX>

- Reference 6021 has been obsoleted by RFC 6991.

<ALEX> OK, will fix
</ALEX>

- Reference 6241 is cited but not in the references section.

<ALEX> OK, will fix
</ALEX>

- The IANA considerations section is missing. You need to do IANA
  registrations of the YANG module name and the namespace URN.

<ALEX> OK, will fix
</ALEX>

- RFC 2119 terms are used but not 'imported'.

- There are references without citations: [yang-json], [restconf].

<ALEX> OK
</ALEX>

- I do not really understand why RFC1195, RFC2328, and RFC3209 are
  normative references. Even RFC6241 and RFC7223 may not be normative.
  Well, RFC6241 is not cited at all so it should be removed anyway
  (ah, bad for my h-index).

<ALEX> I am not sure why they would not be normative - they are standards t=
rack?  What would be the criteria to list them otherwise? =20
(And, we can try to add a citation for RFC 6241 to make your h-index happy)
</ALEX>

- Make sure idnits is happy.
<ALEX>OK, we'll try to make that happy too.
</ALEX>


I have asked the YANG doctors to comment on section 3.5.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: "Zhangxian (Xian)" <zhang.xian@huawei.com>, Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
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Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Xian,

responses inline, <ALEX>

Thanks
--- Alex

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Zhangxian (Xian)
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:20 PM
To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; i2=
rs@ietf.org
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; 'Alia Atlas' =
<akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi, Xufeng, Alex,

Thank you for taking the effort to work toward getting aligned as discussed=
 in last meeting.   I have some comments on some of the conclusions.

Could you share a bit more on reasons behind Point 3 conclusion?

<ALEX> The reason is that the schedule stuff, while generic / non-specific =
to any specific topology, is not =1B$B!H=1B(Bcommon=1B$B!I=1B(B, i.e. does =
not apply to all topologies/ every instantiation of the model.  The goal is=
 to have ietf-network-topology refer to the stuff that is truly common.
</ALEX>

For points 4 and 5, I think they are related. My understanding is that for =
ietf-network, it does not follow the method taken by YANG modules such as i=
etf-interface and ietf-te-topology, in which each -rw leaf will have a corr=
esponding -ro leaf. Instead, it choose to use the =1B$B!H=1B(Bserver-provid=
ed=1B$B!I=1B(B attribute to say whether all the leafs in the module is conf=
igurable or state. I am not sure I understand the conclusion of these two p=
oints. Do you agree that both methods are acceptable?

<ALEX> There is no operational data defined.  The server-provided attribute=
d guides whether network topology information is populated by the server or=
 by the client application, but the information is the same - this not the =
config vs oper data (read: stats) separation.  To add stats, you should pro=
vide an additional subtree/branch as applicable when you are augmenting.
</ALEX>

One last comment on point 6: is this for future-proofness or you have alrea=
dy have some attributes in mind that can apply to all networks?

<ALEX>
I=1B$B!G=1B(Bll let Xufeng respond to that one.  We did not have a top-leve=
l container because it keeps paths shorter (one less level in the hierarchy=
) and because if you wanted to insert something at the =1B$B!H=1B(Btop leve=
l=1B$B!I=1B(B, you could always do it in parallel.  I still think this is t=
he design that=1B$B!G=1B(Bs preferable.
That said, having a top-level container may not really hurt.  There were co=
ncerns regarding the ramification to existing implementations of the model =
(notably, Open Daylight) if we were to add it but it seems the fallout woul=
d be manageable.

Thanks, Alex (end of my comments)
</ALEX>

Thank you,
Xian

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xufeng Liu
Sent: 2015=1B$BG/=1B(B10=1B$B7n=1B(B9=1B$BF|=1B(B 4:15
To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi Folks,

The following is an update on the ongoing I2RS<=3D>TE Topology alignment di=
scussion (between the authors of the TE Topology model and Alex).

The issues / solutions that are currently being discussed are:

I2RS Generic Network Topology Model (draft-ietf-yang-network-topo):

1.       Some groupings in ietf-network.yang and ietf-network-topology.yang=
 cannot be used in augmenting module because of missing name spaces, such a=
s =1B$B!H=1B(Bpath "/network/network-id" at line 42 of ietf-network.yang.
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.



2.       =1B$B!H=1B(Bleaf network-ref=1B$B!I=1B(B in ietf-network-topology.=
yang:169, 220, is causing pyang validation errors.
Solution: Alex will check the errors.


3.       Can the group of schedule attributes be moved from ietf-te-topolog=
y.yang to ietf-network-topology.yang?
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.


4.       How to support state branch in augmenting module?
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.


5.       Should =1B$B!H=1B(Bserver-provided=1B$B!I=1B(B flag be used to blo=
ck user operation on read-only entities?
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.


6.       Should I2RS Generic Network Topology model have a top-level contai=
ner? The benefit of doing so is to provide an augmentation target node to d=
efine attributes global to all networks.
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 =1B$B!H=1B(B/networks=1B$B!I=1B(B as the top level container.

L3 Topology Model (draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)

1.       L3 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so =
that the related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L3 topology=
 and TE topology are congruent.
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.

L2 Topology Model (draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)

1.       L2 Topology Model should have references to TE Topology model, so =
that the related TE information can be properly retrieved, when L2 topology=
 and TE topology are congruent.
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.

Regards,
- Xufeng (on behalf of the authors of the TE Topology Model)

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14)

draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/

Implementation status:

This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and general mo=
del.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in future ODL im=
plementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has implementations=
 of these topology models to provide details on list or offlist to the chai=
rs.

Sue Hares

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi Xian,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">responses inline,
</span><span style=3D"color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&lt;ALEX&gt=
;</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">--- Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Zhangxian (Xian)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xufeng Liu &lt;xufeng.liu@ericsson.com&gt;; Susan Hares &lt;shar=
es@ndzh.com&gt;; i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;jhaas@pfrc.org&gt;; TEAS WG &lt;teas@ietf.org=
&gt;; 'Alia Atlas' &lt;akatlas@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Hi, Xufeng, Alex,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Thank you for taking the effort to work toward getting aligned as dis=
cussed in last meeting. &nbsp;&nbsp;I have some comments on some of the con=
clusions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Could you share a bit more on reasons behind Point 3 conclusion?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt; The reaso=
n is that the schedule stuff, while generic / non-specific to any specific =
topology, is not =1B$B!H=1B(Bcommon=1B$B!I=1B(B, i.e. does not apply to all=
 topologies/ every instantiation of the model.&nbsp; The goal is to have
 ietf-network-topology refer to the stuff that is truly common.&nbsp; <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">For points 4 and 5, I think they are related. My understanding is tha=
t for ietf-network, it does not follow the method taken by YANG modules suc=
h as ietf-interface and ietf-te-topology,
 in which each &#8211;rw leaf will have a corresponding &#8211;ro leaf. Ins=
tead, it choose to use the =1B$B!H=1B(Bserver-provided=1B$B!I=1B(B attribut=
e to say whether all the leafs in the module is configurable or state. I am=
 not sure I understand the conclusion of these two points. Do you
 agree that both methods are acceptable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt; There is =
no operational data defined.&nbsp; The server-provided attributed guides wh=
ether network topology information is populated by the server or by the cli=
ent application, but the information is the same
 &#8211; this not the config vs oper data (read: stats) separation.&nbsp; T=
o add stats, you should provide an additional subtree/branch as applicable =
when you are augmenting.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">One last comment on point 6: is this for future-proofness or you have=
 already have some attributes in mind that can apply to all networks?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">I=1B$B!G=1B(Bll let Xu=
feng respond to that one.&nbsp; We did not have a top-level container becau=
se it keeps paths shorter (one less level in the hierarchy) and because if =
you wanted to insert something at the =1B$B!H=1B(Btop level=1B$B!I=1B(B, yo=
u
 could always do it in parallel.&nbsp; I still think this is the design tha=
t=1B$B!G=1B(Bs preferable.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">That said, having a to=
p-level container may not really hurt.&nbsp; There were concerns regarding =
the ramification to existing implementations of the model (notably, Open Da=
ylight) if we were to add it but it seems
 the fallout would be manageable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">Thanks, Alex (end of m=
y comments)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Thank you,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Xian</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xufeng Liu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2015</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:SimSun">=1B$BG/=1B(B</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">10</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=1B$B7n=1B(B</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">9</span><span lang=
=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=1B$BF|=1B(B</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"=
>
 4:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Susan Hares; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Folks,</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The following is an up=
date on the ongoing I2RS</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#=
1F497D">&oacute;</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TE Topology alignment =
discussion (between the authors of the TE Topology
 model and Alex).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The issues / solutions=
 that are currently being discussed are:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS Generic Network T=
opology Model (</span>draft-ietf-yang-network-topo):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Some groupings in iet=
f-network.yang and ietf-network-topology.yang cannot be used in augmenting =
module because of missing name spaces, such as =1B$B!H=1B(Bpath &quot;/netw=
ork/network-id&quot; at line 42 of ietf-network.yang.<br>
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">=1B$B!H=1B(Bleaf netw=
ork-ref=1B$B!I=1B(B in ietf-network-topology.yang:169, 220, is causing pyan=
g validation errors.<br>
Solution: Alex will check the errors.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Can the group of sche=
dule attributes be moved from ietf-te-topology.yang to ietf-network-topolog=
y.yang?<br>
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">How to support state =
branch in augmenting module?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">5.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should =1B$B!H=1B(Bse=
rver-provided=1B$B!I=1B(B flag be used to block user operation on read-only=
 entities?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">6.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should I2RS Generic N=
etwork Topology model have a top-level container? The benefit of doing so i=
s to provide an augmentation target node to define attributes global to all=
 networks.<br>
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 =1B$B!H=1B(B/networks=1B$B!I=1B(B as the top level container.</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Model sho=
uld have references to TE Topology model, so that the related TE informatio=
n can be properly retrieved, when L3 topology and TE topology are congruent=
.
<br>
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level=
1 lfo6"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Model sho=
uld have references to TE Topology model, so that the related TE informatio=
n can be properly retrieved, when L2 topology and TE topology are congruent=
.
<br>
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Xufeng (on behalf of=
 the authors of the TE Topology Model)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-yang-network-topo &#8211; modeling draft =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-network-topo/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-=
yang-network-topo/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology &#8211; L3 topology=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-y=
ang-l3-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology &#8211; L2 topology=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Implementation status: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 =
topology and general model.&nbsp; It is likely the L2 topology model will b=
e supported in future ODL implementations. &nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff and I would app=
reciate anyone who has implementations of these topology
 models to provide details on list or offlist to the chairs. <o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Juergen, Alex,

Currently in the L2 topology model there is one leaf "tp-state" which is st=
ate data. We can remove it first before we reach some agreement on how to i=
ntroduce operational/state information to topology models.

Besides the approach Juergen suggested, do we also need to consider the app=
roach proposed by openconfig-opstate?=20

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2015 5:55 AM
> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder; Susan Hares
> Cc: Andy Bierman; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund; Ladislav Lhotka; 'Alia=
 Atlas';
> 'Jeffrey Haas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
> which specific objects/ subtrees are you referring to?
>=20
> Essentially, in ietf-network and ietf-network-topology, we have all
> configuration information.  The same is true for the Layer 3 topology - a=
ll
> configuration information.  (I cannot comment on L2 topology as I am not
> involved there.)
>=20
> Are you saying that we should add an additional branch as a placeholder (=
and
> perhaps an augmentation target) for operational data, even if we have not
> otherwise defined any operational data?
>=20
> The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the "server-prov=
ided"
> flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was also discussed (I am no=
t sure if
> this is what you are referring to).  It is analogous to the other discuss=
ion
> concerning distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus on=
e that
> is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are popu=
lated by
> the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client application=
s.
> We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", having a =
(rw)
> branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro) branch for topologies=
 "in
> effect".  We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of info=
rmation
> would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this is not your normal=
 config
> vs oper data distinction, but would essentially reflect a limitation of t=
he
> framework), leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model (ev=
ery
> augmentation has to be conducted in two !
> places),
>  more complex validation rules, etc.
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwael=
der
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 12:22 AM
> To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka
> <lhotka@nic.cz>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> <jhaas@pfrc.org>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> there is a discussion on the yang doctors mailing list about the data mod=
el
> design that mixes state data and configuration data into one subtree and =
that
> uses a data model specific runtime object to identify what is config data=
 and
> what is state data. One of the main outcomes of the IAB workshop back in =
2002
> was the need to clearly separate configuration from operational state and=
 this
> has been driven the design of NETCONF and YANG. YANG data model validatio=
n
> rules, for example, make a distinction between config true and config fal=
se
> data.
> The config true or false property impacts what is returned by NETCONF's
> get-config operation. Also note that config data is not allowed to refer =
to
> config false data in constraints.
>=20
> It is unclear why the document does not follow the typical design pattern=
,
> namely to have a config true subtree
>=20
>   /networks/network*
>=20
> and a config false subtree
>=20
>   /networks-state/network*
>=20
> Section 3.5 describes this approach in the 3rd paragraph and states "As m=
ost
> data is defined in those groupings, the amount of additional definitions =
required
> will be limited." and there are no strong reasons given why this approach=
 has
> not been followed.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 01, 2015 at 06:41:34PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14)
> >
> >
> >
> > draft-ietf-yang-network-topo - modeling draft
> >
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo/
> >
> >
> >
> > draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology - L3 topology
> >
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/
> >
> >
> >
> > draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology - L2 topology
> >
> > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topolo
> > gy/
> >
> >
> >
> > Implementation status:
> >
> >
> >
> > This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 topology and
> > general model.  It is likely the L2 topology model will be supported in=
 future
> ODL
> > implementations.   Jeff and I would appreciate anyone who has
> > implementations of these topology models to provide details on list or
> > offlist to the chairs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Sue Hares
> >
>=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


From nobody Sat Oct 10 14:03:34 2015
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Subject: [i2rs] Rtg Area QA Review: draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02
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For details on Routing Area QA reviews, see: 
https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocQa

Name: draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02
     I2RS Ephemeral State Requirements
Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern
Review Date: October 10, 2015

This document is close to ready for working group last call.

Major issues: None.

Minor Issues:
     I would suggest that the introduction needs to include a 
description, longer than that in the abstract, of the purpose of the 
document.

     If the document purpose is as stated in the abstract, to provide 
requirements to NetConf and NetMod working groups regarding ephemeral 
state, then section 2 should have a bit more explanatory text, as the 
requirements there are explicitly not abotu ephemeral state.  It may be 
as simple as stating that these requirements are repeated hear to 
provide context for the reader.  Or whatever explanation does apply for 
why they are here.

     On section 3.2 requirement 02, the text prohibiting reference from 
non-ephemeral to ephemeral state needs some clarification.  First, it 
should be clear that this is a requirement on behavior outside of I2RS, 
as I2RS can not refer to non-ephemeral state.  Also, it seems likely 
that such incorrect references could be attempted at either model 
definition time or NetConf request application time.  As such 
"validation error" may be too specific a description of the errors needed.

     Requirement 3.4 is written as if writeable / non-writeable were a 
new requirement to NetConf.  I believe what is wanted here is only that 
there must be indications in the model of ephemeral elements, and that 
it is writeable.  If there is a need for non-writeable ephemeral 
elements, that should be described seperately.  At this reading, I do 
not see a need for such.

     Section 3.6 would benefit from an introductory sentence indicating 
that these requirements are included because they have an impact on 
viable solutions to the ephemeral state requirements, although they 
themselves are more general requirements applying to I2RS operations.

     Given that the design team is looking at a model which they 
describe as a limited panes of glass model, it seems that if section 4 
is retained (as it provides useful context) section 4.2 needs to be 
modified to be clear as to what solution is being rejected.

Editorial Issues:  Not noted


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol 
> 
>  
> 
> 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS 
> 
> 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds 
> 
> configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
>

Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?

> 3)      The ephemeral datastore is never locked.
> 
> 4)      I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass mechanisms
> 
> Pane 1: normal configuration 
> 
> Pane 2:  ephemeral state 
> 
>  
> 
>                 The I2RS agent and configuration software on 
> 
>               the node  must handle this complexity.

So is there one ephemeral datastore or are there multiple?  Some
slides say one per client, others seem to indicate one for all
clients.

> 
> 5)      The key word "ephemeral" can be used to identify 
> 
> Identities which are ephemeral in data models.
> 
> Does anyone have any concerns with adding this to 
> Yang?

Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Sun Oct 11 09:55:38 2015
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>,  "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
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On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> >
> >
> >
> > 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> >
> > 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> >
> > configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> >
>
> Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
>


config=true nodes only.
Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.

If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.



> > 3)      The ephemeral datastore is never locked.
> >
> > 4)      I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass mechanisms
> >
> > Pane 1: normal configuration
> >
> > Pane 2:  ephemeral state
> >
> >
> >
> >                 The I2RS agent and configuration software on
> >
> >               the node  must handle this complexity.
>
> So is there one ephemeral datastore or are there multiple?  Some
> slides say one per client, others seem to indicate one for all
> clients.
>
>

One ephemeral datastore.
No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.

One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore


> >
> > 5)      The key word "ephemeral" can be used to identify
> >
> > Identities which are ephemeral in data models.
> >
> > Does anyone have any concerns with adding this to
> > Yang?
>
> Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
> defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
> an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
> contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
> RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
>

I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.

NETCONF has no edit ordering or ability to return a partial
error. IMO only RESTCONF is needed.  Proposals to
improve NETCONF editing to support YANG Patch have
already been made, and the WG had higher priorities.
I don't see why 2 protocols are needed instead of 1.




>
> /js
>
>

Andy


> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>

--047d7b344202a1734b0521d7146c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_bl=
ank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hare=
s wrote:<br>
&gt; The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>config=3Dtrue nodes only.</div><div>Some way=
 is needed to specify I2RS conformance for</div><div>a given YANG module, u=
nless every persistent config leaf</div><div>is expected to also be support=
ed as ephemeral data.</div><div><br></div><div>If not, a YANG &quot;ephemer=
al-stmt&quot; is probably needed, since</div><div>config=3Dtrue is insuffic=
ient to support I2RS conformance.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; 3)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ephemeral datastore is never locked.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 4)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass mechanisms<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pane 1: normal configuration<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Pane 2:=C2=A0 ephemeral state<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The I2RS =
agent and configuration software on<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the node=C2=A0 m=
ust handle this complexity.<br>
<br>
So is there one ephemeral datastore or are there multiple?=C2=A0 Some<br>
slides say one per client, others seem to indicate one for all<br>
clients.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>One ephemeral datastore=
.</div><div>No client panes.=C2=A0 That was to support caching, but</div><d=
iv>the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt;<br>
&gt; 5)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The key word &quot;ephemeral&quot; can be used =
to identify<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Identities which are ephemeral in data models.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Does anyone have any concerns with adding this to<br>
&gt; Yang?<br>
<br>
Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?=C2=A0 Adding by<br>
defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such<br>
an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about<br>
contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on<br>
RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
 think a real keyword is needed not an extension.</div><div>Otherwise YANG =
groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements</div><div>that are refined in th=
e uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.</div><div><br></div><div>NETCONF has=
 no edit ordering or ability to return a partial</div><div>error. IMO only =
RESTCONF is needed.=C2=A0 Proposals to</div><div>improve NETCONF editing to=
 support YANG Patch have</div><div>already been made, and the WG had higher=
 priorities.</div><div>I don&#39;t see why 2 protocols are needed instead o=
f 1.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
/js<br>
<br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><fo=
nt color=3D"#888888">
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7b344202a1734b0521d7146c--


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > > The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> > >
> > > 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> > >
> > > configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> > >
> >
> > Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> >
> 
> 
> config=true nodes only.

good

> Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
> a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
> is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
>
> If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
> config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.

One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
 
> One ephemeral datastore.
> No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
> the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> 
> One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore

good

> > Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
> > defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
> > an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
> > contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
> > RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> >
> 
> I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
> that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.

I fail to understand the groupings argument.
 
> NETCONF has no edit ordering or ability to return a partial
> error. IMO only RESTCONF is needed.  Proposals to
> improve NETCONF editing to support YANG Patch have
> already been made, and the WG had higher priorities.
> I don't see why 2 protocols are needed instead of 1.

Perhaps the WG should discuss and decide. If all the WG wants is
RESTCONF, then we can simplify the discussion.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>,  Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
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--001a11c38a7af504210521d81f9b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > > > The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> > > >
> > > > 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> > > >
> > > > configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> > >
> >
> >
> > config=true nodes only.
>
> good
>
> > Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
> > a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
> > is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
> >
> > If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
> > config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
>
> One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
> not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
> defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
> general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
>
> > One ephemeral datastore.
> > No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
> > the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> >
> > One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
>
> good
>
> > > Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
> > > defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
> > > an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
> > > contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
> > > RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> > >
> >
> > I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> > Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
> > that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
>
> I fail to understand the groupings argument.
>


The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external
statements.

A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG language.
The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to
an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling
language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need
to be imported from a YANG module to be used.



> > NETCONF has no edit ordering or ability to return a partial
> > error. IMO only RESTCONF is needed.  Proposals to
> > improve NETCONF editing to support YANG Patch have
> > already been made, and the WG had higher priorities.
> > I don't see why 2 protocols are needed instead of 1.
>
> Perhaps the WG should discuss and decide. If all the WG wants is
> RESTCONF, then we can simplify the discussion.



>
>
/js
>
>

Andy



> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

--001a11c38a7af504210521d81f9b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_b=
lank">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bier=
man wrote:<br>
&gt; On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelde=
r@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the=
 protocol<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 1)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2R=
S<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 2)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ephemeral datastore is a datastor=
e holds<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; config=3Dtrue nodes only.<br>
<br>
good<br>
<br>
&gt; Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for<br>
&gt; a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf<br>
&gt; is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If not, a YANG &quot;ephemeral-stmt&quot; is probably needed, since<br=
>
&gt; config=3Dtrue is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.<br>
<br>
One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or<br>
not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things<br>
defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more<br>
general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.<br>
<br>
&gt; One ephemeral datastore.<br>
&gt; No client panes.=C2=A0 That was to support caching, but<br>
&gt; the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore<br>
<br>
good<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?=C2=A0 Adding =
by<br>
&gt; &gt; defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does =
such<br>
&gt; &gt; an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What abo=
ut<br>
&gt; &gt; contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.<br>
&gt; Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements<br>
&gt; that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.<br>
<br>
I fail to understand the groupings argument.<br></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements,=
 not external statements.</div><div><br></div><div>A YANG extension is (by =
definition) something external to the YANG language.</div><div>The WG needs=
 to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to</div><div>an I2R=
S YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling languag=
e.=C2=A0 YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need</div><div>to =
be imported from a YANG module to be used.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
&gt; NETCONF has no edit ordering or ability to return a partial<br>
&gt; error. IMO only RESTCONF is needed.=C2=A0 Proposals to<br>
&gt; improve NETCONF editing to support YANG Patch have<br>
&gt; already been made, and the WG had higher priorities.<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t see why 2 protocols are needed instead of 1.<br>
<br>
Perhaps the WG should discuss and decide. If all the WG wants is<br>
RESTCONF, then we can simplify the discussion.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0<br></blockquote><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
/js<br>
<br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div=
><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c38a7af504210521d81f9b--


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> > > On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > > > > The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> > > > >
> > > > > 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> > > > >
> > > > > configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > config=true nodes only.
> >
> > good
> >
> > > Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
> > > a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
> > > is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
> > >
> > > If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
> > > config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
> >
> > One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
> > not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
> > defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
> > general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
> >
> > > One ephemeral datastore.
> > > No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
> > > the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> > >
> > > One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
> >
> > good
> >
> > > > Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
> > > > defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
> > > > an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
> > > > contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
> > > > RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> > > Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
> > > that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
> >
> > I fail to understand the groupings argument.
> >
> 
> 
> The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external
> statements.

RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:

   o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
      refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
 
> A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG language.
> The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to
> an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling
> language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need
> to be imported from a YANG module to be used.

Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS
specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral
datastores).

Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may
be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that decouples
conformance requirements from the data model definition.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Sun Oct 11 13:11:17 2015
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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I would phrase the marking need slightly differently.
Given that it would seem onerous to expect all I2RS-supporting devices 
to support ephemeral behavior for all parts of all models, we need some 
way to clearly indicate what is expected.

Trying to do it as separate models seems difficult.

Marking elements in the model as ephemeral seems the clearest and most 
efficient mechanism, but I am sure there are other alternatives.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/11/15 3:58 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>>>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
>>>>>> The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
>>>>>>
>>>>>> configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> config=true nodes only.
>>>
>>> good
>>>
>>>> Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
>>>> a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
>>>> is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
>>>>
>>>> If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
>>>> config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
>>>
>>> One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
>>> not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
>>> defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
>>> general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
>>>
>>>> One ephemeral datastore.
>>>> No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
>>>> the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
>>>>
>>>> One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
>>>
>>> good
>>>
>>>>> Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
>>>>> defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
>>>>> an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
>>>>> contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
>>>>> RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
>>>> Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
>>>> that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
>>>
>>> I fail to understand the groupings argument.
>>>
>>
>>
>> The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external
>> statements.
>
> RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:
>
>     o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
>        refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
>
>> A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG language.
>> The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to
>> an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling
>> language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need
>> to be imported from a YANG module to be used.
>
> Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS
> specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral
> datastores).
>
> Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may
> be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that decouples
> conformance requirements from the data model definition.
>
> /js
>


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To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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Joel,

do you expect that special models will be written for I2RS or do you
expect that generic routing configuration models will do the job?

/js

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 04:11:11PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> I would phrase the marking need slightly differently.
> Given that it would seem onerous to expect all I2RS-supporting devices 
> to support ephemeral behavior for all parts of all models, we need some 
> way to clearly indicate what is expected.
> 
> Trying to do it as separate models seems difficult.
> 
> Marking elements in the model as ephemeral seems the clearest and most 
> efficient mechanism, but I am sure there are other alternatives.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 10/11/15 3:58 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> >On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> >>j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >>>>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> >>>>j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> >>>>>>The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>config=true nodes only.
> >>>
> >>>good
> >>>
> >>>>Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
> >>>>a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
> >>>>is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
> >>>>
> >>>>If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
> >>>>config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
> >>>
> >>>One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
> >>>not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
> >>>defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
> >>>general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
> >>>
> >>>>One ephemeral datastore.
> >>>>No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
> >>>>the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> >>>>
> >>>>One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
> >>>
> >>>good
> >>>
> >>>>>Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
> >>>>>defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
> >>>>>an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
> >>>>>contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
> >>>>>RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> >>>>Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
> >>>>that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
> >>>
> >>>I fail to understand the groupings argument.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external
> >>statements.
> >
> >RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:
> >
> >    o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
> >       refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
> >
> >>A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG 
> >>language.
> >>The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to
> >>an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling
> >>language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need
> >>to be imported from a YANG module to be used.
> >
> >Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS
> >specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral
> >datastores).
> >
> >Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may
> >be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that decouples
> >conformance requirements from the data model definition.
> >
> >/js
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Sun Oct 11 13:28:56 2015
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
References: <05c801d102ce$eb398930$c1ac9b90$@ndzh.com> <20151011161106.GA61856@elstar.local> <CABCOCHTb6VxuV1YxP+zVd8qo171+OUFoH2qeZxAiFqi2RrdrXA@mail.gmail.com> <20151011175123.GA62046@elstar.local> <CABCOCHQa1Dv-vkt-xhGDzOw4rt4UWnGPjEsxHj5vrVNFGjk-xQ@mail.gmail.com> <20151011195818.GA62201@elstar.local> <561AC25F.7050407@joelhalpern.com> <20151011202410.GA62276@elstar.local>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 16:28:50 -0400
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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While there will be new information that needs new models, some of the 
things to be manipulated in an ephemeral fashion by I2RS are already in 
existing models.

I have heard proposals to use some version of overlapping or related 
models, and I do not know what can be made to work.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/11/15 4:24 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> Joel,
>
> do you expect that special models will be written for I2RS or do you
> expect that generic routing configuration models will do the job?
>
> /js
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 04:11:11PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>> I would phrase the marking need slightly differently.
>> Given that it would seem onerous to expect all I2RS-supporting devices
>> to support ephemeral behavior for all parts of all models, we need some
>> way to clearly indicate what is expected.
>>
>> Trying to do it as separate models seems difficult.
>>
>> Marking elements in the model as ephemeral seems the clearest and most
>> efficient mechanism, but I am sure there are other alternatives.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 10/11/15 3:58 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>>>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
>>>>>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
>>>>>>>> The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> config=true nodes only.
>>>>>
>>>>> good
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for
>>>>>> a given YANG module, unless every persistent config leaf
>>>>>> is expected to also be supported as ephemeral data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since
>>>>>> config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
>>>>>
>>>>> One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or
>>>>> not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having things
>>>>> defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance in more
>>>>> general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special case.
>>>>>
>>>>>> One ephemeral datastore.
>>>>>> No client panes.  That was to support caching, but
>>>>>> the architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
>>>>>
>>>>> good
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by
>>>>>>> defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such
>>>>>>> an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What about
>>>>>>> contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle on
>>>>>>> RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
>>>>>> Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements
>>>>>> that are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
>>>>>
>>>>> I fail to understand the groupings argument.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external
>>>> statements.
>>>
>>> RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:
>>>
>>>     o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
>>>        refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
>>>
>>>> A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG
>>>> language.
>>>> The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific to
>>>> an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data modeling
>>>> language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not need
>>>> to be imported from a YANG module to be used.
>>>
>>> Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS
>>> specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral
>>> datastores).
>>>
>>> Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may
>>> be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that decouples
>>> conformance requirements from the data model definition.
>>>
>>> /js
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


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Juergen: 

>Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by defining an
YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? >How does such an i2rs:ephemeral
true interplay with config true/false? What about contexts for must/when
expressions? Or >is the idea to settle on RESTCONF and to work with YANG
patch?

Yes - I should have said schema nodes. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 12:11 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20

On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the protocol
> 
>  
> 
> 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS 
> 
> 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds 
> 
> configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
>

Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?

> 3)      The ephemeral datastore is never locked.
> 
> 4)      I2RS is using a 2 panes of glass mechanisms
> 
> Pane 1: normal configuration
> 
> Pane 2:  ephemeral state
> 
>  
> 
>                 The I2RS agent and configuration software on
> 
>               the node  must handle this complexity.

So is there one ephemeral datastore or are there multiple?  Some slides say
one per client, others seem to indicate one for all clients.

> 
> 5)      The key word "ephemeral" can be used to identify 
> 
> Identities which are ephemeral in data models.
> 
> Does anyone have any concerns with adding this to Yang?

Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by defining an
YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does such an i2rs:ephemeral
true interplay with config true/false? What about contexts for must/when
expressions? Or is the idea to settle on RESTCONF and to work with YANG
patch?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
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Juergen: 

You make an excellent point on whether the WG should just select RESTCONF
instead of both RESTCONF and NETCONF.   I will start a discussion thread
later today on this point. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 1:51 PM
To: Andy Bierman
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org; Susan Hares
Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < 
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> > > The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the 
> > > protocol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> > >
> > > 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> > >
> > > configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> > >
> >
> > Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> >
> 
> 
> config=true nodes only.

good

> Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for a given YANG 
> module, unless every persistent config leaf is expected to also be 
> supported as ephemeral data.
>
> If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since config=true 
> is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.

One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model or not. If
conformance is the goal, then you know what having things defined inline has
limits. If we would address conformance in more general terms, perhaps I2RS
conformance falls out as a special case.
 
> One ephemeral datastore.
> No client panes.  That was to support caching, but the architecture 
> forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> 
> One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore

good

> > Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by 
> > defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does 
> > such an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? What 
> > about contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to settle 
> > on RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> >
> 
> I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements that are 
> refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.

I fail to understand the groupings argument.
 
> NETCONF has no edit ordering or ability to return a partial error. IMO 
> only RESTCONF is needed.  Proposals to improve NETCONF editing to 
> support YANG Patch have already been made, and the WG had higher 
> priorities.
> I don't see why 2 protocols are needed instead of 1.

Perhaps the WG should discuss and decide. If all the WG wants is RESTCONF,
then we can simplify the discussion.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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Juergen: 

The data models will be different for I2RS. 

I2RS has protocol independent Data models which are different that the
general data models (I2RS RIB, I2RS topology models, and I2RS FB-RIB).  The
I2RS protocol modules discuss for BGP are different than BGP general yang
modules. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 4:24 PM
To: Joel M. Halpern
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org; Andy Bierman; Susan Hares
Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20

Joel,

do you expect that special models will be written for I2RS or do you expect
that generic routing configuration models will do the job?

/js

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 04:11:11PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> I would phrase the marking need slightly differently.
> Given that it would seem onerous to expect all I2RS-supporting devices 
> to support ephemeral behavior for all parts of all models, we need 
> some way to clearly indicate what is expected.
> 
> Trying to do it as separate models seems difficult.
> 
> Marking elements in the model as ephemeral seems the clearest and most 
> efficient mechanism, but I am sure there are other alternatives.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 10/11/15 3:58 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> >On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < 
> >>j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >>>>On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < 
> >>>>j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> >>>>>>The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the 
> >>>>>>protocol
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>config=true nodes only.
> >>>
> >>>good
> >>>
> >>>>Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for a given YANG 
> >>>>module, unless every persistent config leaf is expected to also be 
> >>>>supported as ephemeral data.
> >>>>
> >>>>If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since 
> >>>>config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
> >>>
> >>>One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model 
> >>>or not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having 
> >>>things defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance 
> >>>in more general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special
case.
> >>>
> >>>>One ephemeral datastore.
> >>>>No client panes.  That was to support caching, but the 
> >>>>architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
> >>>>
> >>>>One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
> >>>
> >>>good
> >>>
> >>>>>Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by 
> >>>>>defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does 
> >>>>>such an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? 
> >>>>>What about contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to 
> >>>>>settle on RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
> >>>>Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements that are 
> >>>>refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
> >>>
> >>>I fail to understand the groupings argument.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external 
> >>statements.
> >
> >RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:
> >
> >    o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
> >       refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
> >
> >>A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG 
> >>language.
> >>The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific 
> >>to an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data 
> >>modeling language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not 
> >>need to be imported from a YANG module to be used.
> >
> >Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS 
> >specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral 
> >datastores).
> >
> >Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may 
> >be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that decouples 
> >conformance requirements from the data model definition.
> >
> >/js
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Joel: 

The I2RS models for BGP utilize the BGP yang module definitions, but these
models are not the same.  I would agree with you that the I2RS models are
unique. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2015 4:29 PM
To: Andy Bierman; Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org; i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20

While there will be new information that needs new models, some of the
things to be manipulated in an ephemeral fashion by I2RS are already in
existing models.

I have heard proposals to use some version of overlapping or related models,
and I do not know what can be made to work.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/11/15 4:24 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
> Joel,
>
> do you expect that special models will be written for I2RS or do you 
> expect that generic routing configuration models will do the job?
>
> /js
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 04:11:11PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>> I would phrase the marking need slightly differently.
>> Given that it would seem onerous to expect all I2RS-supporting 
>> devices to support ephemeral behavior for all parts of all models, we 
>> need some way to clearly indicate what is expected.
>>
>> Trying to do it as separate models seems difficult.
>>
>> Marking elements in the model as ephemeral seems the clearest and 
>> most efficient mechanism, but I am sure there are other alternatives.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 10/11/15 3:58 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote:
>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 11:10:16AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < 
>>>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 09:55:31AM -0700, Andy Bierman wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 9:11 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder < 
>>>>>> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 04:13:03PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
>>>>>>>> The 10/7/2015 interim discussed the ephemeral portion of the 
>>>>>>>> protocol
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1)      Ephemeral state is not unique to zI2RS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2)      The ephemeral datastore is a datastore holds
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> configuration that is intended to not survive a reboot.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Configuration as YANG config true or a subset thereof?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> config=true nodes only.
>>>>>
>>>>> good
>>>>>
>>>>>> Some way is needed to specify I2RS conformance for a given YANG 
>>>>>> module, unless every persistent config leaf is expected to also 
>>>>>> be supported as ephemeral data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, a YANG "ephemeral-stmt" is probably needed, since 
>>>>>> config=true is insufficient to support I2RS conformance.
>>>>>
>>>>> One question is whether this needs to be inline in the data model 
>>>>> or not. If conformance is the goal, then you know what having 
>>>>> things defined inline has limits. If we would address conformance 
>>>>> in more general terms, perhaps I2RS conformance falls out as a special
case.
>>>>>
>>>>>> One ephemeral datastore.
>>>>>> No client panes.  That was to support caching, but the 
>>>>>> architecture forbids caching, so that was taken out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One ephemeral pane that overrides the running datastore
>>>>>
>>>>> good
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Identities? I assume you mean schema nodes, do you?  Adding by 
>>>>>>> defining an YANG extension such as i2rs:ephemeral true? How does 
>>>>>>> such an i2rs:ephemeral true interplay with config true/false? 
>>>>>>> What about contexts for must/when expressions? Or is the idea to 
>>>>>>> settle on RESTCONF and to work with YANG patch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think a real keyword is needed not an extension.
>>>>>> Otherwise YANG groupings cannot be utilized w/ statements that 
>>>>>> are refined in the uses-stmt to set the ephemeral flag.
>>>>>
>>>>> I fail to understand the groupings argument.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The refine-stmt is defined to work on YANG statements, not external 
>>>> statements.
>>>
>>> RFC 6020bis says in section 7.13.2.:
>>>
>>>     o  Any node can get refined extensions, if the extension allows
>>>        refinement.  See Section 7.19 for details.
>>>
>>>> A YANG extension is (by definition) something external to the YANG 
>>>> language.
>>>> The WG needs to decide if the ephemeral property should be specific 
>>>> to an I2RS YANG module or should be basic property of the YANG data 
>>>> modeling language.  YANG keywords must be supported and they do not 
>>>> need to be imported from a YANG module to be used.
>>>
>>> Or it is a common extension (that is the extension is not I2RS 
>>> specific but instead for everything that wants to use ephemeral 
>>> datastores).
>>>
>>> Anyway, if the main purpose is to define a conformance level, it may 
>>> be worth thinking about adding a conformance mechanism that 
>>> decouples conformance requirements from the data model definition.
>>>
>>> /js
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 03:45:10AM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Juergen: 
> 
> The data models will be different for I2RS. 
> 
> I2RS has protocol independent Data models which are different that the
> general data models (I2RS RIB, I2RS topology models, and I2RS FB-RIB).  The
> I2RS protocol modules discuss for BGP are different than BGP general yang
> modules. 
>

My parser throws an except here...

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Oct 12 00:59:00 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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> On 09 Oct 2015, at 22:16, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 09 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Lada,
>>> I2RS is not chartered to do the base models. There are other routing
>>> models that reference routing-cfg and even in-progress =
implementations.
>>=20
>> Of course, I am aware of them. However, assuming that changes =
resulting from I2RS operation will be available for inspection as state =
data to NETCONF/RESTCONF clients, and vice versa, it's important that =
the those routing data models and I2RS data models remain compatible and =
coordinated.
>>=20
>> A data model for RIBs should IMO be developed simultaneously for both =
purposes, and common parts implemented as groupings so as to be reusable =
without copying-and-pasting.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 10/9/15, 4:13 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka"
>>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide =
the
>>>> relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and
>>>> netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same =
management
>>>> data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment
>>>> ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.
>>>=20
>>> This would seem to be the obvious choice.
>>=20
>> I agree, and so far it can be done quite easily.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would =
address
>>>> only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for =
advanced
>>>> routers will be done elsewhere.
>>>>=20
>>>> 3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.
>>>=20
>>> A fourth option would be for me to take over ownership, move the =
work to
>>> the RTG WG, and we=E2=80=99d recruit some strong authors/reviewers =
from operators
>>> and other vendors (involving the ADs in selection).
>>=20
>=20
> You mean  i2rs-rib-data-model?

We are talking about a bigger picture, and i2rs-rib-data-model is a part =
of it.

Lada

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>> Yes, that's what I meant.
>>=20
>> Thanks, Lada
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Opinions?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks, Lada
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>>>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20
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Juergen: 

My apologies.  Reparsing. 

By experience, the data models seem to be different.  The I2RS has protocol
independent data modules which are different that the routing data modules
(I2RS RIB, I2RS topology models, and I2RS FB-RIB).  

As I've worked on I2RS BGP modules, these BGP modules also appear to require
different data than the general BGP yang modules even though the I2RS BGP
modules want to use groupings from standard BGP yang modules.  These i2RS
BGP modules need to be reviewed by Yang experts. 

Sue 


-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 3:49 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; 'Joel M. Halpern'; i2rs-proto-dt@ietf.org; 'Andy Bierman'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] inteirm 10/7/20

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 03:45:10AM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Juergen: 
> 
> The data models will be different for I2RS. 
> 
> I2RS has protocol independent Data models which are different that the 
> general data models (I2RS RIB, I2RS topology models, and I2RS FB-RIB).  
> The I2RS protocol modules discuss for BGP are different than BGP 
> general yang modules.
>

My parser throws an except here...

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

_______________________________________________
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Xian,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responding on item 6 i=
nline below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">- Xufeng<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Alexande=
r Clemm (alex) [mailto:alex@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 09, 2015 8:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhangxian (Xian); Xufeng Liu; Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; TEAS WG; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi Xian,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">responses inline,
</span><span style=3D"color:#0070C0;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&lt;ALEX&gt=
;</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">--- Alex<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zhangxian (Xian)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 08, 2015 7:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xufeng Liu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xufeng.liu@ericsson.com">xufeng=
.liu@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.co=
m">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.=
org</a>&gt;; TEAS WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teas@ietf.org">teas@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;; 'Alia Atlas' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Hi, Xufeng, Alex,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Thank you for taking the effort to work toward getting aligned as dis=
cussed in last meeting. &nbsp;&nbsp;I have some comments on some of the con=
clusions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Could you share a bit more on reasons behind Point 3 conclusion?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt; The reaso=
n is that the schedule stuff, while generic / non-specific to any specific =
topology, is not =A1=B0common=A1=B1, i.e. does not apply to all topologies/=
 every instantiation of the model.&nbsp; The goal is to have
 ietf-network-topology refer to the stuff that is truly common.&nbsp; <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">For points 4 and 5, I think they are related. My understanding is tha=
t for ietf-network, it does not follow the method taken by YANG modules suc=
h as ietf-interface and ietf-te-topology,
 in which each =A8Crw leaf will have a corresponding =A8Cro leaf. Instead, =
it choose to use the =A1=B0server-provided=A1=B1 attribute to say whether a=
ll the leafs in the module is configurable or state. I am not sure I unders=
tand the conclusion of these two points. Do you
 agree that both methods are acceptable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt; There is =
no operational data defined.&nbsp; The server-provided attributed guides wh=
ether network topology information is populated by the server or by the cli=
ent application, but the information is the same
 =A8C this not the config vs oper data (read: stats) separation.&nbsp; To a=
dd stats, you should provide an additional subtree/branch as applicable whe=
n you are augmenting.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">One last comment on point 6: is this for future-proofness or you have=
 already have some attributes in mind that can apply to all networks?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">I=A1=AFll let Xufeng r=
espond to that one.&nbsp; We did not have a top-level container because it =
keeps paths shorter (one less level in the hierarchy) and because if you wa=
nted to insert something at the =A1=B0top level=A1=B1, you
 could always do it in parallel.&nbsp; I still think this is the design tha=
t=A1=AFs preferable.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">That said, having a to=
p-level container may not really hurt.&nbsp; There were concerns regarding =
the ramification to existing implementations of the model (notably, Open Da=
ylight) if we were to add it but it seems
 the fallout would be manageable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">Thanks, Alex (end of m=
y comments)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#0070C0">&lt;/ALEX&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Xufeng] This is=
 for both future-proofness and current requirement. To allow operator easil=
y configure TE topology attributes, we are defining templates that can be a=
pplied to all networks.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Thank you,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:4.8pt"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Xian</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xufeng Liu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2015</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:SimSun">=C4=EA</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">10</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D4=C2</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">9</span>=
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=C8=D5</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">
 4:15<br>
<b>To:</b> Susan Hares; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><=
br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Folks,</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The following is an up=
date on the ongoing I2RS</span><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#=
1F497D">=A8=AE</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">TE Topology alignment di=
scussion (between the authors of the TE Topology
 model and Alex).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">The issues / solutions=
 that are currently being discussed are:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I2RS Generic Network T=
opology Model (</span>draft-ietf-yang-network-topo):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in">1.<span style=3D=
"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Some groupings in ietf-network.yang an=
d ietf-network-topology.yang cannot be used in augmenting module because of=
 missing name spaces, such as =A1=B0path &quot;/network/network-id&quot; at=
 line 42 of ietf-network.yang.<br>
Solution: Proposed fixes have been sent to Alex to verify.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in">2.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">=A1=B0leaf network-ref=A1=B1 in ietf-n=
etwork-topology.yang:169, 220, is causing pyang validation errors.<br>
Solution: Alex will check the errors.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in">3.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Can the group of schedule attributes b=
e moved from ietf-te-topology.yang to ietf-network-topology.yang?<br>
Solution: We agreed to keep them in ietf-te-topology.yang.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in">4.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">How to support state branch in augment=
ing module?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. In the augmenti=
ng module, for each entity like topology, node and link, create a config co=
ntainer for configuration attributes and a state container for operational =
state attributes.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:-.2=
5in">5.<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should =A1=B0server-provided=A1=B1 fla=
g be used to block user operation on read-only entities?<br>
Solution: Keep base model ietf-network-topology.yang as is. TE topology wil=
l use other means to achieve such a purpose.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in">6.<span style=3D=
"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Should I2RS Generic Network Topology m=
odel have a top-level container? The benefit of doing so is to provide an a=
ugmentation target node to define attributes global to all networks.<br>
Solution: I2RS Generic Network Topology module authors will consider making=
 =A1=B0/networks=A1=B1 as the top level container.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in">1.<span style=3D=
"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L3 Topology Model should have referenc=
es to TE Topology model, so that the related TE information can be properly=
 retrieved, when L3 topology and TE topology are congruent.
<br>
Solution: L3 Topology Model authors will need to update the model and draft=
 to include these.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Model (</s=
pan>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in">1.<span style=3D=
"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">L2 Topology Model should have referenc=
es to TE Topology model, so that the related TE information can be properly=
 retrieved, when L2 topology and TE topology are congruent.
<br>
Solution: This needs to be discussed with L2 Topology Model authors.</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- Xufeng (on behalf of=
 the authors of the TE Topology Model)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> i2rs [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Hares<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This begins a 2 week WG Last call (10/1 to 10/14) <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-yang-network-topo =A8C modeling draft <o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-network-topo/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-=
yang-network-topo/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology =A8C L3 topology <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l3-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-y=
ang-l3-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology =A8C L2 topology <o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-i2rs-yang-l2-network-topology/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Implementation status: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This an OpenDaylight (ODL) implementation of the L3 =
topology and general model.&nbsp; It is likely the L2 topology model will b=
e supported in future ODL implementations. &nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff and I would app=
reciate anyone who has implementations of these topology
 models to provide details on list or offlist to the chairs. <o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sue Hares &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_AAB1CC9C17CBA440BDFA169056B93B9E127C0865eusaamb107erics_--


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Here's the web-ex recording for 10/27/2015 interim

I2RS Interim 10/7-20151007 1405-1 
Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
11:39 am | Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00) 

PLAY RECORDING (1 hr 31 min) 
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=c7a470c3bec3a9ed4db8a379e273716d 

 

Sue Hares 


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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
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xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Here&#8217;s the web-ex =
recording for 10/27/2015 interim</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I2RS Interim 10/7-20151007 =
1405-1</span> <br><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Wednesday, October 7, =
2015</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>11:39 =
am | Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>PLAY RECORDING (1 hr 31 =
min)</span> <br><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3Dc7a470c3bec3a9ed4db8a3=
79e273716d">https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3Dc7a470c3bec3a9ed4d=
b8a379e273716d</a></span> <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p>Sue =
Hares <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Martin: 

Did you get web-ex recording information you requested? 

Sue Hares 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:55 AM
To: shares@ndzh.com
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; i2rs@ietf.org; kwatsen@juniper.net; andy@yumaworks.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting

Hi,

Was this WebEX recorded?  If so, where can I find it?


/martin


"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>  
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 
> 
>  
> 
> 1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]
> 
> 2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary 
> 
>    [10:05 - 10:15]
> 
> 3) Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30] 
> 
> 4) I2RS Protocol Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]
> 
> 5) Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]
> 
> 7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]
> 
> 8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 
> 
> I2RS Interim 10/7 
> 
> Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
> 
> 10:00 am  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)  |  2 hrs 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Join WebEx meeting 
> 
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1e24725f4e5646061f21baae1c6a87db
> 
>  
> 
> Meeting number:            649 136 221 
> 
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> 
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From nobody Tue Oct 13 01:12:12 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Rtg Area QA Review: draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02
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Joel: 

Thank you for the review.  I complete an revision to address these issues. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2015 5:03 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org; Jonathan Hardwick; 'Jon Hudson'
Subject: [i2rs] Rtg Area QA Review: draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02

For details on Routing Area QA reviews, see: 
https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDirDocQa

Name: draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02
     I2RS Ephemeral State Requirements
Reviewer: Joel M. Halpern
Review Date: October 10, 2015

This document is close to ready for working group last call.

Major issues: None.

Minor Issues:
     I would suggest that the introduction needs to include a description,
longer than that in the abstract, of the purpose of the document.

     If the document purpose is as stated in the abstract, to provide
requirements to NetConf and NetMod working groups regarding ephemeral state,
then section 2 should have a bit more explanatory text, as the requirements
there are explicitly not abotu ephemeral state.  It may be as simple as
stating that these requirements are repeated hear to provide context for the
reader.  Or whatever explanation does apply for why they are here.

     On section 3.2 requirement 02, the text prohibiting reference from
non-ephemeral to ephemeral state needs some clarification.  First, it should
be clear that this is a requirement on behavior outside of I2RS, as I2RS can
not refer to non-ephemeral state.  Also, it seems likely that such incorrect
references could be attempted at either model definition time or NetConf
request application time.  As such "validation error" may be too specific a
description of the errors needed.

     Requirement 3.4 is written as if writeable / non-writeable were a new
requirement to NetConf.  I believe what is wanted here is only that there
must be indications in the model of ephemeral elements, and that it is
writeable.  If there is a need for non-writeable ephemeral elements, that
should be described seperately.  At this reading, I do not see a need for
such.

     Section 3.6 would benefit from an introductory sentence indicating that
these requirements are included because they have an impact on viable
solutions to the ephemeral state requirements, although they themselves are
more general requirements applying to I2RS operations.

     Given that the design team is looking at a model which they describe as
a limited panes of glass model, it seems that if section 4 is retained (as
it provides useful context) section 4.2 needs to be modified to be clear as
to what solution is being rejected.

Editorial Issues:  Not noted

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Subject: Re: [i2rs] nits review of draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01.txt
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On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 10:18:50PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> 
> - The description of the typedef link-id says 'The identifier may be
>   opaque.' What does that mean? It is an inet:uri after all. If two
>   systems populate a link-id, how are they going to come up with the
>   same identifier? Is the SHOULD realistic to achieve? The same
>   comment applies to the typedef tp-id.
> 
> <ALEX> Basically, this says that there may be different convenions 
> used to pick identifiers, and we are not prescribing a specific 
> convention.  You may have different systems which choose to populate 
> link-ids differently, but they are different systems and 
> refer to different links.  
> </ALEX>

The description says:

   The identifier SHOULD be chosen such that the same link in a
   real network topology will always be identified through the
   same identifier, even if the model is instantiated in
   separate datastores.

Your answer does not match this text. So my comment remains open.
 
> - I do not really understand why RFC1195, RFC2328, and RFC3209 are
>   normative references. Even RFC6241 and RFC7223 may not be normative.
>   Well, RFC6241 is not cited at all so it should be removed anyway
>   (ah, bad for my h-index).
> 
> <ALEX> I am not sure why they would not be normative - they are standards track?  What would be the criteria to list them otherwise?  
> (And, we can try to add a citation for RFC 6241 to make your h-index happy)
> </ALEX>

A reference is normative if the reference is required to implement the
specification correctly. This is orthogonal to a document's status.
Usually, normative references of standards-track documents are
standards-track documents but this is not strictly required (such
cases are called a downrefs and trigger special procedures). And it is
perfectly fine to standards-track non-normative references. In other
words, you should ask for each reference whether it is essential to
implement this specification correctly or not. In this case, I think
RFC 6020 and RFC 6991 are (not that RFC 6991 has obsoleted RFC 6020).
You probably also need to cite RFC 2119 if you use MUST/SHOULD
language and add the boilerplate paragraph somewhere. All references
that are not cited should be removed.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts: 

1)      "all-or-nothing", 

2)      "continue-on-error", and  

3)      "stop-on-error".

 

To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team suggests
reduce this to the "all-or-nothing" for the initial version.  Later versions
of the I2RS protocol can provide the "continue-on-error" or "stop-on-error"
error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS architecture was to
support all 3 error handling pieces.  

 

Sue Hares  and Jeff Haas 

 

 


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From nobody Tue Oct 13 02:14:58 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting
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"Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> Martin: 
> 
> Did you get web-ex recording information you requested? 

Yes, thank you!


/martin


> 
> Sue Hares 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 2:55 AM
> To: shares@ndzh.com
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; i2rs@ietf.org; kwatsen@juniper.net; andy@yumaworks.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] 10/7/2015 Interim meeting
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Was this WebEX recorded?  If so, where can I find it?
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> >  
> > 
> > I2RS Interim 10/7/2015 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 1) Agenda Bashing [10:00 - 10:05 ]
> > 
> > 2) I2RS Protocol Requirements Summary 
> > 
> >    [10:05 - 10:15]
> > 
> > 3) Discussion of Requirements [10:15-30] 
> > 
> > 4) I2RS Protocol Strawman [10:25 - 10:45]
> > 
> > 5) Discussion of I2RS Protocol [10:45-11:00]
> > 
> > 7) I2RS Hackathon [11:00 - 11:15]
> > 
> > 8) I2RS FB-RIB [11:15 - 11:30] 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Next I2RS Meeting 10/7/2015 
> > 
> > I2RS Interim 10/7 
> > 
> > Wednesday, October 7, 2015 
> > 
> > 10:00 am  |  Eastern Daylight Time (New York, GMT-04:00)  |  2 hrs 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Join WebEx meeting 
> > 
> > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m1e24725f4e5646061f21baae1c6a87db
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Meeting number:            649 136 221 
> > 
> > Meeting password:         kent.andy.proto
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Join by phone
> > 
> > 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)
> > 
> > 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)
> > 
> > Access code: 649 136 221
> > 
> > Toll-free calling restrictions
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> 


From nobody Tue Oct 13 05:33:53 2015
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Subject: [i2rs] IETF94 I2RS Meeting - on 11/2/2015 at 9:00am - 11:30am and Interim on 10/21/2015 at 10:00am - 11:30am ET
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Hi all: 

 

The I2RS Meeting at IETF is on 11/2/2015 from 9:00am - 11:30am (Japan time).
Please request time slots for this meeting by responding to this mail
message. 

 

The I2RS will have a virtual interim 10/21/2015 from 10:00am - 12:00 am ET
to discuss the I2RS protocol (requirements and strawman), and I2RS Data
Models (RIB Data Model, Topology Data Models, and Filter Data models).
Please request time slots by responding to this message. 

 

The I2RS mail list may be very busy as we consider the requirements, data
models, and protocol strawman.  We thank you for all your hard work
regarding the I2RS work. 

 

Sue Hares and Jeff Haas 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi all: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The I2RS Meeting at IETF is on 11/2/2015 from 9:00am =
&#8211; 11:30am (Japan time).&nbsp; Please request time slots for this =
meeting by responding to this mail message. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The I2RS =
will have a virtual interim 10/21/2015 from 10:00am &#8211; 12:00 am ET =
to discuss the I2RS protocol (requirements and strawman), and I2RS Data =
Models (RIB Data Model, Topology Data Models, and Filter Data =
models).&nbsp;&nbsp; Please request time slots by responding to this =
message. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The I2RS mail list may be very busy as we consider the =
requirements, data models, and protocol strawman.&nbsp; We thank you for =
all your hard work regarding the I2RS work. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue Hares =
and Jeff Haas <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_016F_01D10591.DD0D05B0--


From nobody Tue Oct 13 05:56:07 2015
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, i2rs@ietf.org
References: <005901d10595$3f1fce10$bd5f6a30$@ndzh.com>
From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc.
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 08:55:53 -0400
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Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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On 10/13/15 04:57, Susan Hares wrote:
> Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
>
> 1)“all-or-nothing”,
>
> 2)“continue-on-error”, and
>
> 3)“stop-on-error”.
>
> To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
> implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team
> suggests reduce this to the “all-or-nothing” for the initial version.
> Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the “continue-on-error”
> or “stop-on-error” error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS
> architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.

It seems to me the latter two would be easier to implement as the Client 
continues to fire (until not told to do so in the stop-on-error case) 
and the Agent wouldn't have to track all operations for rollback.

Is the assumption that most I2RS transactions will have mutual 
dependencies, and this is the most common error case?

Joe


From nobody Tue Oct 13 08:21:31 2015
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, NETMOD WG <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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From nobody Tue Oct 13 08:57:49 2015
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, i2rs@ietf.org
References: <005901d10595$3f1fce10$bd5f6a30$@ndzh.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:57:45 -0400
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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I can live with this reduction.  It simplifies the agent implementation 
(as it only has to support one instead of three modes).  The increase in 
effort on the client is small.  If we find out that, as was suspected, 
there are performance issues, then we can add back the other error modes.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/13/15 4:57 AM, Susan Hares wrote:
> Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
>
> 1)“all-or-nothing”,
>
> 2)“continue-on-error”, and
>
> 3)“stop-on-error”.
>
> To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
> implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team
> suggests reduce this to the “all-or-nothing” for the initial version.
> Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the “continue-on-error”
> or “stop-on-error” error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS
> architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.
>
> Sue Hares  and Jeff Haas
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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> On 13 Oct 2015, at 17:20, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Lada, NETMOD,=20
>=20
> So I think we should move forward this ietf-rtg-cfg so that it can be
> augmented and other work can move forward. We are still in =
disagreement
> with respect to routing-instance/interface configuration.
>=20
>    - We feel the IPv4/IPv6 interfaces should reference the
> routing-instance in their config state. This is consistent with
> draft-rtgyangdt-rtgwg-device-model-01.txt.
>    - You feel that the routing-instance should have a list of =
leaf-ref=E2=80=99s
> to the interface. You believe the leaf-ref provides a level of =
validation
> due to the fact that references can be confined to routing-instance
> references. However, heretofore, no models are referencing the =
interface
> leaf-refs in the list.

True, these models (ietf-isis, for instance) use leafrefs with =
"if:interface-ref" type. However, such leafrefs are under-constrained =
because they can be configured to refer to:

- interfaces of any layer, including physical interfaces, VLAN trunks =
etc.

- interfaces assigned to any routing instance.

I believe in all these cases the choice has to be limited to (1) L3 =
interfaces, and (2) belonging to "own" routing instance. These =
constraints will have to be checked in server code somehow - I would =
prefer to have them represented in the data model.

But if nobody shares this concern with me, I am not going to block the =
document on this issue.

Lada=20

>=20
> Other than the Routing YANG Design Team having chosen the first option =
-
> are there any other opinions?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Acee
>=20
> On 10/9/15, 9:00 AM, "netmod on behalf of Acee Lindem (acee)"
> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Lada,=20
>> I2RS is not chartered to do the base models. There are other routing
>> models that reference routing-cfg and even in-progress =
implementations.
>>=20
>> On 10/9/15, 4:13 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka"
>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide =
the
>>> relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and
>>> netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same =
management
>>> data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:
>>>=20
>>> 1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment
>>> ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.
>>=20
>> This would seem to be the obvious choice.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would =
address
>>> only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for =
advanced
>>> routers will be done elsewhere.
>>>=20
>>> 3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.
>>=20
>> A fourth option would be for me to take over ownership, move the work =
to
>> the RTG WG, and we=E2=80=99d recruit some strong authors/reviewers =
from operators
>> and other vendors (involving the ADs in selection).
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Acee=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Opinions?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks, Lada
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:35:25 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D242C6EB.30122%nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-07 - WG LC from (10/6 to 10/20/2015)
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--B_3527591734_53924627
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   o  tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel or
      MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this document.  An optional
      egress interface can be specified to indicate which interface to
      send the packet out on.  The egress interface is useful when the
      network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to
      perform address resolution for the IP packet.
=20
I don=B9t think an egress interface should be part of the tunnel encap. The
egress interface and optionally a nbr address should be in a separate chain
member.

NB> Removed.


=20

<mpls-header> ::=3D (<mpls-label-operation> ...)
<mpls-label-operation> ::=3D (<MPLS_PUSH> <MPLS_LABEL> [<S_BIT>]
                            [<TOS_VALUE>] [<TTL_VALUE>]) |
                            (<MPLS_POP> [<TTL_ACTION>])
=20
<mpls-header> is part of <tunnel-encap> - so <MPLS_POP> does not make sense=
?
=20

NB> There was no easy place to put the POP operation. One option would have
been to define <tunnel-decap>.

=20

Zzh> I think that option is better.

=20

Will add <tunnel-decap>

Thanks
Nitin




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tion1"><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;o&nbsp; tunnel encap: This can be an encap representing an IP tunnel =
or<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MPLS tunnel or others as defined in this docume=
nt.&nbsp; An optional<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span sty=
le=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; egress interface can be spec=
ified to indicate which interface to<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlain=
Text"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; send the pack=
et out on.&nbsp; The egress interface is useful when the<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; network device contains Ethernet interfaces and one needs to<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; perform address resolution for the IP packet.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">I don&#8217;t think an egress interface shou=
ld be part of the tunnel encap. The egress interface and optionally a nbr ad=
dress should be in a separate chain member.</span></p></div></div></div></di=
v></div></span><div><br></div><div>NB&gt; Removed.</div><div><br></div><span=
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s:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft=
-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"=
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d blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=
=3D"color:black">&lt;mpls-header&gt; ::=3D (&lt;mpls-label-operation&gt; ...)<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;mpl=
s-label-operation&gt; ::=3D (&lt;MPLS_PUSH&gt; &lt;MPLS_LABEL&gt; [&lt;S_BIT&g=
t;]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; [&lt;TOS_VALUE&gt;] [&lt;TTL_VALUE&gt;]) |<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (&lt;MPLS_POP&gt;=
 [&lt;TTL_ACTION&gt;])<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span st=
yle=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F4E79">&lt;mpls-header&gt; is part of &lt;tunnel-encap&gt; - =
so &lt;MPLS_POP&gt; does not make sense?</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;color:black">NB&gt; There was no easy place to put the POP oper=
ation. One option would have been to define &lt;tunnel-decap&gt;.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;col=
or:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoPlainText=
"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 78, 121);">Z=
zh&gt; I think that option is better.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></span><div><br></div><div>Wil=
l add &lt;tunnel-decap&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div>Nitin</=
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCONF, HTTP/2
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Subject: [i2rs] I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCONF, HTTP/2
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We just posted two drafts in NETCONF.  These drafts technology specificatio=
ns aiming to cover the requirements from I2RS as per:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
These drafts are:

(1)  Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates (updated)
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push-02.txt

(2) Restconf subscription and HTTP push for YANG datastores (new)
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restconf-yang-push-00.txt
   Draft (2) is new in that it:

*     proposes Restconf subscription and push mechanisms to continuously st=
ream information from YANG datastores over HTTP

*     provides a mechanism to support static subscriptions so that an opera=
tor can stream updates over HTTP without Restconf

*     provides YANG model extensions to leverage HTTP/2 so that individual =
subscriptions can get custom treatment via their own HTTP streams.

If you are interested, please come over and follow the discussions in NETCO=
NF.  Thanks!

- Alexander Clemm, Eric Voit, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto, Ambika Prasad Tripat=
hy, & Einar Nilsen-Nygaard





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We just posted two drafts in NETCONF.&nbsp; These dr=
afts technology specifications aiming to cover the requirements from I2RS a=
s per:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These drafts are:<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(1)&nbsp; Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates=
 (updated)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netcon=
f-yang-push-02.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push-02=
.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(2) Restconf subscription and HTTP push for YANG dat=
astores (new)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restcon=
f-yang-push-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restconf-yang-push-00=
.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:6.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Draft (=
2) is new in that it:<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
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ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>proposes Restconf subscription and push mechanisms to continuously s=
tream information from YANG datastores over HTTP
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>provides a mechanism to support static subscriptions so that an oper=
ator can stream updates over HTTP without Restconf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>provides YANG model extensions to leverage HTTP/2 so that individual=
 subscriptions can get custom treatment via their own HTTP streams.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you are interested, please come over and follow t=
he discussions in NETCONF.&nbsp; Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Alexander Clemm, Eric Voit, Alberto Gonzalez Priet=
o, Ambika Prasad Tripathy, &amp; Einar Nilsen-Nygaard<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_56dda8e1105144d098a70f4b1d84f993XCHALN013ciscocom_--


From nobody Wed Oct 14 00:55:57 2015
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Agree to reduce to "all-or-nothing" at current stage. If later we find use =
cases for the other two modes, they can be added back.

Best regards,
Jie

> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:58 PM
> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplific=
ation for
> initial I2RS protocol
>=20
> I can live with this reduction.  It simplifies the agent implementation (=
as it only
> has to support one instead of three modes).  The increase in effort on th=
e
> client is small.  If we find out that, as was suspected, there are perfor=
mance
> issues, then we can add back the other error modes.
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 10/13/15 4:57 AM, Susan Hares wrote:
> > Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
> >
> > 1)"all-or-nothing",
> >
> > 2)"continue-on-error", and
> >
> > 3)"stop-on-error".
> >
> > To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
> > implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team
> > suggests reduce this to the "all-or-nothing" for the initial version.
> > Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the "continue-on-error"
> > or "stop-on-error" error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS
> > architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.
> >
> > Sue Hares  and Jeff Haas
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


From nobody Wed Oct 14 18:25:00 2015
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents  (10/6 to 10/20/2015)  -
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 01:24:41 +0000
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Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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Hi, Sue,

Sorry, I am a bit confused =E2=80=94 draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability =
finished WG LC over 4 months ago.

Looking at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/> =
you might recall:

2015-06-12	03	Susan Hares	IETF WG state changed to WG =
Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from In WG Last Call
2015-05-26	02	Susan Hares	WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for =
inclusion in requirements
2015-05-26	02	Susan Hares	IETF WG state changed to In WG =
Last Call from WG Document

And so did draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.

What is the goal of this new WG LC?

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>=20
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS:
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/>
>=20
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirem=
ents/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-require=
ments/>
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/>
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/>
>=20
> Sue Hares
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi, Sue,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Sorry, I am a bit confused =
=E2=80=94&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability finished WG LC over 4 months =
ago.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Looking =
at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/hist=
ory/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/h=
istory/</a>&nbsp;you might recall:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">2015-06-12<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>03<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Susan Hares<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>IETF WG =
state changed to&nbsp;WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up&nbsp;from In WG =
Last Call<br class=3D"">2015-05-26<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>02<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Susan Hares<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>WG LC =
(5/26 to 6/9) for inclusion in requirements<br class=3D"">2015-05-26<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>02<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Susan =
Hares<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>IETF WG state changed to&nbsp;In WG Last Call&nbsp;from WG =
Document</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And =
so did&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is the goal of this =
new WG LC?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" class=3D"">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the =
following requirement documents for I2RS:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state=
/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Note: =
I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF =
Changes.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We will discuss whether this section should be kept or =
removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-=
requirements/" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-securi=
ty-requirements/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requiremen=
ts/" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-require=
ments/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</=
a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sue =
Hares<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
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widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
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orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
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font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
Thread-Index: AdEB5+DLM5h+BqpqTSycX0eoPofscAFKosGA
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 01:26:14 +0000
Message-ID: <8A88801D-D647-486F-84F4-37EE70091955@cisco.com>
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Cc: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) - IPR disclosure
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No change since the WG (almost-)LC from May:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg02514.html =
<https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg02514.html>

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

> On Oct 8, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com =
<mailto:shares@ndzh.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I2RS WG:
>=20
> I missed an important part of the WG LC.  Each author of each document =
should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.
>=20
> Sue Hares
>=20
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 7:16 PM
> To: i2rs@ietf.org <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
> Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
>=20
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS:
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/>
>=20
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt
> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirem=
ents/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-require=
ments/>
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/>
>=20
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/>
>=20
> Sue Hares
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">No change since the WG (almost-)LC from May:<div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg02514.html" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/i2rs/current/msg02514.htm=
l</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Carlos.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 8, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" class=3D"">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">I2RS WG:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I missed =
an important part of the WG LC.&nbsp; Each author of each document =
should indicate whether they have any IPR on the requirements.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Sue =
Hares<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>i2rs [<a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Susan Hares<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, October 06, 2015 =
7:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Alia =
Atlas'<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[i2rs] WG LC for =
requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement =
documents for I2RS:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state=
/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Note: =
I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF =
Changes.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We will discuss whether this section should be kept or =
removed. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-=
requirements/" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-securi=
ty-requirements/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requiremen=
ts/" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-require=
ments/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/</=
a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Sue =
Hares<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">i2rs mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Oct 14 19:36:38 2015
Return-Path: <shares@ndzh.com>
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'Carlos Pignataro \(cpignata\)'" <cpignata@cisco.com>
References: <007301d10095$65bb8410$31328c30$@ndzh.com> <EE13509A-12AD-4BC7-913D-3488DF2590F1@cisco.com>
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:36:30 -0400
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Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>, i2rs@ietf.org, 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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Carlos:=20

=20

Very good question.  You are correct traceability was WG LC 4 months ago =
(6/12/2015) and pub/sub (10/2/2015).  This fine work paved the way for =
the rest of the I2RS requirements to be completed. The NETMOD/NETCONF =
chairs know these drafts have reached WG consensus.=20

=20

However, the other components of the I2RS requirements for the I2RS =
protocol were not complete (I2rs security, I2rs ephemeral state).  This =
WG LC asks the WG to review all the I2RS requirements as a whole group =
to see that the whole package of requirements are consistent. This WG LC =
will not change the results of the pub/sub WG LCs, but other eyes may =
review and provide you with additional review comments (always good). =20

=20

The I2RS WG, NETCONF/NETMOD WG, and the early I2RS protocol design team =
have spent a great deal of time in July =E2=80=93 September working =
through the other requirements for the I2RS protocol so this WG LC (10/6 =
to 10/20)  is for the WG to consider all the WG requirements at one =
time. =20

=20

The 10/7/2015 I2RS interim provided some initial work on an I2RS =
strawman for the I2RS protocol.  The 10/21/2015 I2RS interim will =
provide addition details on the strawman based on all of these =
requirements.=20

=20

Thank you for asking this question,

=20

Sue Hares=20

=20

From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro =
(cpignata)
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:25 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: Jeffrey Haas; i2rs@ietf.org; Alia Atlas
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) =
-

=20

Hi, Sue,

=20

Sorry, I am a bit confused =E2=80=94 draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability =
finished WG LC over 4 months ago.

=20

Looking at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/ =
you might recall:


2015-06-12      03        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to WG =
Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from In WG Last Call
2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for =
inclusion in requirements
2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to In WG =
Last Call from WG Document

=20

And so did draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.

=20

What is the goal of this new WG LC?

=20

Thanks,

=20

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

=20

On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

=20

This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS:=20

=20

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt =20

 <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

=20

Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes. =20

This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.

We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.  =20

=20

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt=20

 =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requir=
ements/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-require=
ments/

=20

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt=20

 <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

=20

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt=20

 <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

=20

Sue Hares=20

=20

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
 <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

=20


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Carlos: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Very good question. =C2=A0You are correct traceability was WG LC 4 =
months ago (6/12/2015) and pub/sub (10/2/2015). =C2=A0This fine work =
paved the way for the rest of the I2RS requirements to be completed. The =
NETMOD/NETCONF chairs know these drafts have reached WG consensus. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>However, the other components of the I2RS requirements for the I2RS =
protocol were not complete (I2rs security, I2rs ephemeral state).=C2=A0 =
This WG LC asks the WG to review all the I2RS requirements as a whole =
group to see that the whole package of requirements are consistent. This =
WG LC will not change the results of the pub/sub WG LCs, but other eyes =
may review and provide you with additional review comments (always =
good). =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The I2RS WG, NETCONF/NETMOD WG, and the early I2RS protocol design =
team have spent a great deal of time in July =E2=80=93 September working =
through the other requirements for the I2RS protocol so this WG LC (10/6 =
to 10/20) =C2=A0is for the WG to consider all the WG requirements at one =
time. =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The 10/7/2015 I2RS interim provided some initial work on an I2RS =
strawman for the I2RS protocol.=C2=A0 The 10/21/2015 I2RS interim will =
provide addition details on the strawman based on all of these =
requirements. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thank you for asking this question,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carlos Pignataro =
(cpignata)<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:25 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Susan Hares<br><b>Cc:</b> Jeffrey Haas; i2rs@ietf.org; =
Alia Atlas<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents =
(10/6 to 10/20/2015) -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi, =
Sue,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry, I am a bit confused =
=E2=80=94&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability finished WG LC over 4 months =
ago.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Looking at&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/his=
tory/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/hist=
ory/</a>&nbsp;you might recall:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>2015-06-12<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>03<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>Susan Hares<span class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>IETF WG state changed to&nbsp;WG Consensus: Waiting for =
Write-Up&nbsp;from In WG Last Call<br>2015-05-26<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>02<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>Susan Hares<span class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for inclusion in =
requirements<br>2015-05-26<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>02<span =
class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>Susan Hares<span class=3Dapple-tab-span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
</span>IETF WG state changed to&nbsp;In WG Last Call&nbsp;from WG =
Document<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And so did&nbsp;draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements =
BTW.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What is the goal of this new WG =
LC?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=E2=80=94 Carlos.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>This =
begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS:<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>draft-ietf-=
i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
><span =
style=3D'color:purple'>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ep=
hemeral-state/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Note: I2RS =
ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.&nbsp;<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>This =
section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>We will =
discuss whether this section should be kept or removed. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>draft-ietf-=
i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security=
-requirements/"><span =
style=3D'color:purple'>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pr=
otocol-security-requirements/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>draft-ietf-=
i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requireme=
nts/"><span =
style=3D'color:purple'>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pu=
b-sub-requirements/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>draft-ietf-=
i2rs-traceability-03.txt<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/"><s=
pan =
style=3D'color:purple'>http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-tr=
aceability/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Sue =
Hares<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>__________=
_____________________________________<br>i2rs mailing list<br></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purpl=
e'>i2rs@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br></span=
><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:purpl=
e'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></=
div></blockquote></div><p =
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------=_NextPart_000_011F_01D106D0.C66DE4B0--


From nobody Wed Oct 14 20:20:45 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Joe: 

There will be some groups of data model have dependencies between objects.
Some Client interactions will be orthogonal to each other.   If there are
groupings, then the dependencies may leave the I2RS agent and routing system
in an unknown state. 

The "all-or-nothing" is the normal case for NETCONF/RESTCONF. If clients are
based on the Netconf/RESTCONF code base, this will be the simple upward
change. 

The I2RS agent needs to provide notification for error on writing for
priority conflict, and for other errors.   The Stop-on-error would also need
to provide this input. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:56 AM
To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
simplification for initial I2RS protocol

On 10/13/15 04:57, Susan Hares wrote:
> Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
>
> 1)"all-or-nothing",
>
> 2)"continue-on-error", and
>
> 3)"stop-on-error".
>
> To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first 
> implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team 
> suggests reduce this to the "all-or-nothing" for the initial version.
> Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the "continue-on-error"
> or "stop-on-error" error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS 
> architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.

It seems to me the latter two would be easier to implement as the Client
continues to fire (until not told to do so in the stop-on-error case) and
the Agent wouldn't have to track all operations for rollback.

Is the assumption that most I2RS transactions will have mutual dependencies,
and this is the most common error case?

Joe


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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Susan,

so let me state clearly once more that the ephemeral requirements
document seems to be incomplete:

  3.5.  Minimal sub-set of Changes to NETCONF

     Ephemeral-REQ-07: The minimal set of changes are: (TBD).

     Potential set: TBD

     Note: I2RS protocol design team is working to complete this set of
     minimal changes.

I assume you will need another WG last call once the missing pieces
have been filled in.

I am also not sure 'the NETMOD/NETCONF WGs have spent a great deal of
time' - I think it was more a design team that involves people active
in NETMOD and NETCONF.

/js

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:36:30PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> Carlos: 
> 
>  
> 
> Very good question.  You are correct traceability was WG LC 4 months ago (6/12/2015) and pub/sub (10/2/2015).  This fine work paved the way for the rest of the I2RS requirements to be completed. The NETMOD/NETCONF chairs know these drafts have reached WG consensus. 
> 
>  
> 
> However, the other components of the I2RS requirements for the I2RS protocol were not complete (I2rs security, I2rs ephemeral state).  This WG LC asks the WG to review all the I2RS requirements as a whole group to see that the whole package of requirements are consistent. This WG LC will not change the results of the pub/sub WG LCs, but other eyes may review and provide you with additional review comments (always good).  
> 
>  
> 
> The I2RS WG, NETCONF/NETMOD WG, and the early I2RS protocol design team have spent a great deal of time in July â€“ September working through the other requirements for the I2RS protocol so this WG LC (10/6 to 10/20)  is for the WG to consider all the WG requirements at one time.  
> 
>  
> 
> The 10/7/2015 I2RS interim provided some initial work on an I2RS strawman for the I2RS protocol.  The 10/21/2015 I2RS interim will provide addition details on the strawman based on all of these requirements. 
> 
>  
> 
> Thank you for asking this question,
> 
>  
> 
> Sue Hares 
> 
>  
> 
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:25 PM
> To: Susan Hares
> Cc: Jeffrey Haas; i2rs@ietf.org; Alia Atlas
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
> 
>  
> 
> Hi, Sue,
> 
>  
> 
> Sorry, I am a bit confused â€” draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability finished WG LC over 4 months ago.
> 
>  
> 
> Looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/ you might recall:
> 
> 
> 2015-06-12      03        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from In WG Last Call
> 2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for inclusion in requirements
> 2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to In WG Last Call from WG Document
> 
>  
> 
> And so did draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.
> 
>  
> 
> What is the goal of this new WG LC?
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>  
> 
> â€” Carlos.
> 
>  
> 
> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for I2RS: 
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt  
> 
>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/
> 
>  
> 
> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes.  
> 
> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.
> 
> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.   
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt 
> 
>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements/
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt 
> 
>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
> 
>  
> 
> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt 
> 
>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/
> 
>  
> 
> Sue Hares 
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
>  <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org
>  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> 
>  
> 

> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> 
> The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the
> "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was
> also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring to).
> It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing
> configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect
> etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated by
> the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client
> applications.

Yes, this is what the concern is about.

> We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",
> having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro)
> branch for topologies "in effect".

This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to what
was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config from
state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property
controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic
tools out there will be able to understand this.

> We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this
> is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would
> essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to
> unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation
> has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,
> etc.

I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data
distinction. Please explain.

I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
Please explain.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Thu Oct 15 04:25:32 2015
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" <acee@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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Hi Acee,

I made the necessary changes in ietf-routing, please see the GitHub
repo:

https://github.com/netmod-wg/routing-cfg

A new leaf "rt:routing-instance" was augmented into interface
configuration, and "rt:interfaces" container in configuration is gone.

Below is the complete new tree.

Will this work?

Lada

module: ietf-interfaces
   +--rw interfaces
   |  +--rw interface* [name]
   |     +--rw name                   string
   |     +--rw description?           string
   |     +--rw type                   identityref
   |     +--rw enabled?               boolean
   |     +--rw ip:ipv4!
   |     |  +--rw ip:enabled?      boolean
   |     |  +--rw ip:forwarding?   boolean
   |     |  +--rw ip:mtu?          uint16
   |     |  +--rw ip:address* [ip]
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:ip               inet:ipv4-address-no-zone
   |     |  |  +--rw (subnet)
   |     |  |     +--:(prefix-length)
   |     |  |        +--rw ip:prefix-length?   uint8
   |     |  +--rw ip:neighbor* [ip]
   |     |     +--rw ip:ip                    inet:ipv4-address-no-zone
   |     |     +--rw ip:link-layer-address    yang:phys-address
   |     +--rw ip:ipv6!
   |     |  +--rw ip:enabled?                        boolean
   |     |  +--rw ip:forwarding?                     boolean
   |     |  +--rw ip:mtu?                            uint32
   |     |  +--rw ip:address* [ip]
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:ip               inet:ipv6-address-no-zone
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:prefix-length    uint8
   |     |  +--rw ip:neighbor* [ip]
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:ip                    inet:ipv6-address-no-zone
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:link-layer-address    yang:phys-address
   |     |  +--rw ip:dup-addr-detect-transmits?      uint32
   |     |  +--rw ip:autoconf
   |     |  |  +--rw ip:create-global-addresses?   boolean
   |     |  +--rw v6ur:ipv6-router-advertisements
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:send-advertisements?    boolean
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:max-rtr-adv-interval?   uint16
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:min-rtr-adv-interval?   uint16
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:managed-flag?           boolean
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:other-config-flag?      boolean
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:link-mtu?               uint32
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:reachable-time?         uint32
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:retrans-timer?          uint32
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:cur-hop-limit?          uint8
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:default-lifetime?       uint16
   |     |     +--rw v6ur:prefix-list
   |     |        +--rw v6ur:prefix* [prefix-spec]
   |     |           +--rw v6ur:prefix-spec           inet:ipv6-prefix
   |     |           +--rw (control-adv-prefixes)?
   |     |              +--:(no-advertise)
   |     |              |  +--rw v6ur:no-advertise?         empty
   |     |              +--:(advertise)
   |     |                 +--rw v6ur:valid-lifetime?       uint32
   |     |                 +--rw v6ur:on-link-flag?         boolean
   |     |                 +--rw v6ur:preferred-lifetime?   uint32
   |     |                 +--rw v6ur:autonomous-flag?      boolean
   |     +--rw rt:routing-instance?   routing-instance-ref
   +--ro interfaces-state
      +--ro interface* [name]
         +--ro name                   string
         +--ro type                   identityref
         +--ro oper-status            enumeration
         +--ro last-change?           yang:date-and-time
         +--ro phys-address?          yang:phys-address
         +--ro higher-layer-if*       interface-state-ref
         +--ro lower-layer-if*        interface-state-ref
         +--ro speed?                 yang:gauge64
         +--ro statistics
         |  +--ro discontinuity-time    yang:date-and-time
         |  +--ro in-octets?            yang:counter64
         |  +--ro in-unicast-pkts?      yang:counter64
         |  +--ro in-broadcast-pkts?    yang:counter64
         |  +--ro in-multicast-pkts?    yang:counter64
         |  +--ro in-discards?          yang:counter32
         |  +--ro in-errors?            yang:counter32
         |  +--ro in-unknown-protos?    yang:counter32
         |  +--ro out-octets?           yang:counter64
         |  +--ro out-unicast-pkts?     yang:counter64
         |  +--ro out-broadcast-pkts?   yang:counter64
         |  +--ro out-multicast-pkts?   yang:counter64
         |  +--ro out-discards?         yang:counter32
         |  +--ro out-errors?           yang:counter32
         +--ro ip:ipv4!
         |  +--ro ip:forwarding?   boolean
         |  +--ro ip:mtu?          uint16
         |  +--ro ip:address* [ip]
         |  |  +--ro ip:ip               inet:ipv4-address-no-zone
         |  |  +--ro (subnet)?
         |  |  |  +--:(prefix-length)
         |  |  |     +--ro ip:prefix-length?   uint8
         |  |  +--ro ip:origin?          ip-address-origin
         |  +--ro ip:neighbor* [ip]
         |     +--ro ip:ip                    inet:ipv4-address-no-zone
         |     +--ro ip:link-layer-address?   yang:phys-address
         |     +--ro ip:origin?               neighbor-origin
         +--ro ip:ipv6!
         |  +--ro ip:forwarding?                     boolean
         |  +--ro ip:mtu?                            uint32
         |  +--ro ip:address* [ip]
         |  |  +--ro ip:ip               inet:ipv6-address-no-zone
         |  |  +--ro ip:prefix-length    uint8
         |  |  +--ro ip:origin?          ip-address-origin
         |  |  +--ro ip:status?          enumeration
         |  +--ro ip:neighbor* [ip]
         |  |  +--ro ip:ip                    inet:ipv6-address-no-zone
         |  |  +--ro ip:link-layer-address?   yang:phys-address
         |  |  +--ro ip:origin?               neighbor-origin
         |  |  +--ro ip:is-router?            empty
         |  |  +--ro ip:state?                enumeration
         |  +--ro v6ur:ipv6-router-advertisements
         |     +--ro v6ur:send-advertisements?    boolean
         |     +--ro v6ur:max-rtr-adv-interval?   uint16
         |     +--ro v6ur:min-rtr-adv-interval?   uint16
         |     +--ro v6ur:managed-flag?           boolean
         |     +--ro v6ur:other-config-flag?      boolean
         |     +--ro v6ur:link-mtu?               uint32
         |     +--ro v6ur:reachable-time?         uint32
         |     +--ro v6ur:retrans-timer?          uint32
         |     +--ro v6ur:cur-hop-limit?          uint8
         |     +--ro v6ur:default-lifetime?       uint16
         |     +--ro v6ur:prefix-list
         |        +--ro v6ur:prefix* [prefix-spec]
         |           +--ro v6ur:prefix-spec           inet:ipv6-prefix
         |           +--ro v6ur:valid-lifetime?       uint32
         |           +--ro v6ur:on-link-flag?         boolean
         |           +--ro v6ur:preferred-lifetime?   uint32
         |           +--ro v6ur:autonomous-flag?      boolean
         +--ro rt:routing-instance?   routing-instance-state-ref
module: ietf-routing
   +--ro routing-state
   |  +--ro routing-instance* [name]
   |     +--ro name                 string
   |     +--ro type?                identityref
   |     +--ro router-id?           yang:dotted-quad
   |     +--ro interfaces
   |     |  +--ro interface*   if:interface-state-ref
   |     +--ro routing-protocols
   |     |  +--ro routing-protocol* [type name]
   |     |     +--ro type    identityref
   |     |     +--ro name    string
   |     +--ro ribs
   |        +--ro rib* [name]
   |           +--ro name              string
   |           +--ro address-family    identityref
   |           +--ro default-rib?      boolean {multiple-ribs}?
   |           +--ro routes
   |              +--ro route*
   |                 +--ro route-preference?          route-preference
   |                 +--ro next-hop
   |                 |  +--ro (next-hop-options)
   |                 |     +--:(outgoing-interface)
   |                 |     |  +--ro outgoing-interface?      if:interface-s=
tate-ref
   |                 |     +--:(special-next-hop)
   |                 |     |  +--ro special-next-hop?        enumeration
   |                 |     +--:(next-hop-address)
   |                 |     |  +--ro v6ur:next-hop-address?   inet:ipv6-addr=
ess
   |                 |     +--:(next-hop-address)
   |                 |        +--ro v4ur:next-hop-address?   inet:ipv4-addr=
ess
   |                 +--ro source-protocol            identityref
   |                 +--ro active?                    empty
   |                 +--ro last-updated?              yang:date-and-time
   |                 +--ro v6ur:destination-prefix?   inet:ipv6-prefix
   |                 +--ro v4ur:destination-prefix?   inet:ipv4-prefix
   +--rw routing
      +--rw routing-instance* [name]
         +--rw name                 string
         +--rw type?                identityref
         +--rw enabled?             boolean
         +--rw router-id?           yang:dotted-quad
         +--rw description?         string
         +--rw routing-protocols
         |  +--rw routing-protocol* [type name]
         |     +--rw type             identityref
         |     +--rw name             string
         |     +--rw description?     string
         |     +--rw static-routes
         |        +--rw v6ur:ipv6
         |        |  +--rw v6ur:route* [destination-prefix]
         |        |     +--rw v6ur:destination-prefix    inet:ipv6-prefix
         |        |     +--rw v6ur:description?          string
         |        |     +--rw v6ur:next-hop
         |        |        +--rw (next-hop-options)
         |        |           +--:(outgoing-interface)
         |        |           |  +--rw v6ur:outgoing-interface?   if:interf=
ace-ref
         |        |           +--:(special-next-hop)
         |        |           |  +--rw v6ur:special-next-hop?     enumerati=
on
         |        |           +--:(next-hop-address)
         |        |              +--rw v6ur:next-hop-address?     inet:ipv6=
-address
         |        +--rw v4ur:ipv4
         |           +--rw v4ur:route* [destination-prefix]
         |              +--rw v4ur:destination-prefix    inet:ipv4-prefix
         |              +--rw v4ur:description?          string
         |              +--rw v4ur:next-hop
         |                 +--rw (next-hop-options)
         |                    +--:(outgoing-interface)
         |                    |  +--rw v4ur:outgoing-interface?   if:interf=
ace-ref
         |                    +--:(special-next-hop)
         |                    |  +--rw v4ur:special-next-hop?     enumerati=
on
         |                    +--:(next-hop-address)
         |                       +--rw v4ur:next-hop-address?     inet:ipv4=
-address
         +--rw ribs
            +--rw rib* [name]
               +--rw name              string
               +--rw address-family?   identityref
               +--rw description?      string

"Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com> writes:

> On 10/13/15, 12:30 PM, "Ladislav Lhotka" <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On 13 Oct 2015, at 17:20, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Lada, NETMOD,
>>>=20
>>> So I think we should move forward this ietf-rtg-cfg so that it can be
>>> augmented and other work can move forward. We are still in disagreement
>>> with respect to routing-instance/interface configuration.
>>>=20
>>>    - We feel the IPv4/IPv6 interfaces should reference the
>>> routing-instance in their config state. This is consistent with
>>> draft-rtgyangdt-rtgwg-device-model-01.txt.
>>>    - You feel that the routing-instance should have a list of leaf-ref=
=E2=80=99s
>>> to the interface. You believe the leaf-ref provides a level of
>>>validation
>>> due to the fact that references can be confined to routing-instance
>>> references. However, heretofore, no models are referencing the interface
>>> leaf-refs in the list.
>>
>>True, these models (ietf-isis, for instance) use leafrefs with
>>"if:interface-ref" type. However, such leafrefs are under-constrained
>>because they can be configured to refer to:
>>
>>- interfaces of any layer, including physical interfaces, VLAN trunks etc.
>
> Actually, putting the routing-instance reference in the IPv4 and IPv6
> interface models (i.e., RFC 7277) constrains the reference to layer 3 more
> effectively than the list of leaf-refs.
>
>>
>>- interfaces assigned to any routing instance.
>
> But the list of leaf-refs doesn=E2=80=99t insure an IPv4 interface or IPv6
> interface isn=E2=80=99t included by a single routing-instance.
>
>>
>>I believe in all these cases the choice has to be limited to (1) L3
>>interfaces, and (2) belonging to "own" routing instance. These
>>constraints will have to be checked in server code somehow - I would
>>prefer to have them represented in the data model.
>>
>>But if nobody shares this concern with me, I am not going to block the
>>document on this issue.
>
> I=E2=80=99d also be interested if anyone shares this concern.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee=20
>
>
>>
>>Lada=20
>>
>>>=20
>>> Other than the Routing YANG Design Team having chosen the first option -
>>> are there any other opinions?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Acee
>>>=20
>>> On 10/9/15, 9:00 AM, "netmod on behalf of Acee Lindem (acee)"
>>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi Lada,=20
>>>> I2RS is not chartered to do the base models. There are other routing
>>>> models that reference routing-cfg and even in-progress implementations.
>>>>=20
>>>> On 10/9/15, 4:13 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka"
>>>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I am sorry for cross-posting but I think it is high time to decide the
>>>>> relationship between the data models in i2rs-rib-data-model and
>>>>> netmod-routing-cfg I-Ds because they clearly target the same
>>>>>management
>>>>> data in a router. I can see three possible scenarios:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. The i2rs-rib module will be modified to augment
>>>>> ietf-routing/ietf-ipv[46]-unicast-routing.
>>>>=20
>>>> This would seem to be the obvious choice.
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. The scope of ietf-routing will be changed so that it would address
>>>>> only host routing and simple routers. The modelling work for advanced
>>>>> routers will be done elsewhere.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 3. The work on netmod-routing-cfg will be stopped.
>>>>=20
>>>> A fourth option would be for me to take over ownership, move the work
>>>>to
>>>> the RTG WG, and we=E2=80=99d recruit some strong authors/reviewers from
>>>>operators
>>>> and other vendors (involving the ADs in selection).
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Acee=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Opinions?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks, Lada
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>>>>> PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>=20
>>
>>--
>>Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>>PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--=20
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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On 10/14/15 23:20, Susan Hares wrote:
> Joe:
>
> There will be some groups of data model have dependencies between objects.
> Some Client interactions will be orthogonal to each other.   If there are
> groupings, then the dependencies may leave the I2RS agent and routing system
> in an unknown state.

Sure.

>
> The "all-or-nothing" is the normal case for NETCONF/RESTCONF. If clients are
> based on the Netconf/RESTCONF code base, this will be the simple upward
> change.

RESTCONF does do all-or-none, but typically operations apply to one data 
element at a time.  Clients would need to include multiple 
sub-operations for a, say, a PATCH.  So, if I understand correctly, 
there would be burden on the Client that uses RESTCONF and 
multi-messages for a single "transaction" to handle the backout?

Joe

>
> The I2RS agent needs to provide notification for error on writing for
> priority conflict, and for other errors.   The Stop-on-error would also need
> to provide this input.
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:56 AM
> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>
> On 10/13/15 04:57, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
>>
>> 1)"all-or-nothing",
>>
>> 2)"continue-on-error", and
>>
>> 3)"stop-on-error".
>>
>> To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
>> implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team
>> suggests reduce this to the "all-or-nothing" for the initial version.
>> Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the "continue-on-error"
>> or "stop-on-error" error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS
>> architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.
>
> It seems to me the latter two would be easier to implement as the Client
> continues to fire (until not told to do so in the stop-on-error case) and
> the Agent wouldn't have to track all operations for rollback.
>
> Is the assumption that most I2RS transactions will have mutual dependencies,
> and this is the most common error case?
>
> Joe
>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -
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Juergen:

=20

Short answers: =20

=C2=B7         Yes, Ephemeral state will have to go through another WG =
LC after we complete section 3.5: Minimal components of the I2RS =
protocol.=20

=20

=C2=B7         Yes, you are correct that it was interested parties in =
the NETCONF/NETMOD groups.=20

=20

Long-answer: =20

The full scope of ephemeral state requirements seems to be coalescing, =
but it then important to reduce this long laundry list to a reasonable =
first cut.  This is what section 3.5 is supposed to provide.=20

=20

Can you provide any review the other components of Ephemeral state =
without the minimal requirements for NETCONF? =20

=20

I also would like aid in refining the minimal set of requirements for =
RESTCONF:

=20

=C2=B7         I have posted the question of whether "all-or-nothing" =
works for the I2RS agent which is the normal methodology for a NETCONF =
server.=20

=20

=C2=B7         Where should we allow the ephemeral key word?  - at the =
Node level, module level=20

=20

=C2=B7         Other questions have been raised on the tradeoffs between =
speed versus risk on =E2=80=9Climited validation=E2=80=9D?  Can we =
eliminate things for modules which most go fast?  Should we remove MUST =
statements or instance identifiers? =20

=20

All these things are part of reducing the total requirements to the =
minimal subset for NETCONF. =20

=20

Sue=20

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen =
Schoenwaelder
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:24 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)'; 'Alia Atlas'; =
i2rs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) =
-

=20

Susan,

=20

so let me state clearly once more that the ephemeral requirements =
document seems to be incomplete:

=20

  3.5.  Minimal sub-set of Changes to NETCONF

=20

     Ephemeral-REQ-07: The minimal set of changes are: (TBD).

=20

     Potential set: TBD

=20

     Note: I2RS protocol design team is working to complete this set of

     minimal changes.

=20

I assume you will need another WG last call once the missing pieces have =
been filled in.

=20

I am also not sure 'the NETMOD/NETCONF WGs have spent a great deal of =
time' - I think it was more a design team that involves people active in =
NETMOD and NETCONF.

=20

/js

=20

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:36:30PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:

> Carlos:=20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Very good question.  You are correct traceability was WG LC 4 months =
ago (6/12/2015) and pub/sub (10/2/2015).  This fine work paved the way =
for the rest of the I2RS requirements to be completed. The =
NETMOD/NETCONF chairs know these drafts have reached WG consensus.=20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> However, the other components of the I2RS requirements for the I2RS =
protocol were not complete (I2rs security, I2rs ephemeral state).  This =
WG LC asks the WG to review all the I2RS requirements as a whole group =
to see that the whole package of requirements are consistent. This WG LC =
will not change the results of the pub/sub WG LCs, but other eyes may =
review and provide you with additional review comments (always good). =20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> The I2RS WG, NETCONF/NETMOD WG, and the early I2RS protocol design =
team have spent a great deal of time in July =E2=80=93 September working =
through the other requirements for the I2RS protocol so this WG LC (10/6 =
to 10/20)  is for the WG to consider all the WG requirements at one =
time. =20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> The 10/7/2015 I2RS interim provided some initial work on an I2RS =
strawman for the I2RS protocol.  The 10/21/2015 I2RS interim will =
provide addition details on the strawman based on all of these =
requirements.=20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Thank you for asking this question,

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Sue Hares

>=20

> =20

>=20

> From: i2rs [ <mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org> =
mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos=20

> Pignataro (cpignata)

> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:25 PM

> To: Susan Hares

> Cc: Jeffrey Haas;  <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org; Alia Atlas

> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to=20

> 10/20/2015) -

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Hi, Sue,

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Sorry, I am a bit confused =E2=80=94 draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability =
finished WG LC over 4 months ago.

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Looking at  =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/ =
you might recall:

>=20

>=20

> 2015-06-12      03        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to WG =
Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from In WG Last Call

> 2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for =
inclusion in requirements

> 2015-05-26      02        Susan Hares    IETF WG state changed to In =
WG Last Call from WG Document

>=20

> =20

>=20

> And so did draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.

>=20

> =20

>=20

> What is the goal of this new WG LC?

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Thanks,

>=20

> =20

>=20

> =E2=80=94 Carlos.

>=20

> =20

>=20

> On Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares < <mailto:shares@ndzh.com> =
shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

>=20

> =20

>=20

> This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS:=20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt

>=20

>  < <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/>=20

>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF Changes. =20

>=20

> This section is blank and this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 =
interim.

>=20

> We will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.  =20

>=20

> =20

>=20

> draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt

>=20

> =20

> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-req

> uirements/>=20

>  =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requ> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requ

> irements/

>=20

> =20

>=20

> draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt

>=20

> =20

> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

> >=20

>  =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/

>=20

> =20

>=20

> draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt

>=20

>  < <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/>=20

>  <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/> =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/

>=20

> =20

>=20

> Sue Hares

>=20

> =20

>=20

> _______________________________________________

> i2rs mailing list

>  < <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> mailto:i2rs@ietf.org>  =
<mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org

>  < <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs>=20

>  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

>=20

> =20

>=20

=20

> _______________________________________________

> i2rs mailing list

>  <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org

>  <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs

=20

=20

--=20

Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH

Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany

Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         < <http://www.jacobs-university.de/> =
http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

=20

_______________________________________________

i2rs mailing list

 <mailto:i2rs@ietf.org> i2rs@ietf.org

 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs> =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Juergen:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Short =
answers: =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>Yes, Ephemeral state will have to go =
through another WG LC after we complete section 3.5: Minimal components =
of the I2RS protocol. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>Yes, you are correct that it was =
interested parties in the NETCONF/NETMOD groups. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Long-answer: =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>The full scope of ephemeral state requirements =
seems to be coalescing, but it then important to reduce this long =
laundry list to a reasonable first cut.=C2=A0 This is what section 3.5 =
is supposed to provide. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Can =
you provide any review the other components of Ephemeral state without =
the minimal requirements for NETCONF?=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I also =
would like aid in refining the minimal set of requirements for =
RESTCONF:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>I have posted the question of whether =
&quot;all-or-nothing&quot; works for the I2RS agent which is the normal =
methodology for a NETCONF server. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>Where should we allow the ephemeral key =
word? =C2=A0- at the Node level, module level <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span =
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span></span><![endif]>Other questions have been raised on the =
tradeoffs between speed versus risk on =E2=80=9Climited =
validation=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Can we eliminate things for modules which =
most go fast?=C2=A0 Should we remove MUST statements or instance =
identifiers?=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoListParagraph><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>All these things are part of reducing the total =
requirements to the minimal subset for NETCONF.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Sue =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: i2rs =
[mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen =
Schoenwaelder<br>Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:24 AM<br>To: Susan =
Hares<br>Cc: 'Jeffrey Haas'; 'Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)'; 'Alia =
Atlas'; i2rs@ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for requirement =
documents (10/6 to 10/20/2015) -</p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>Susan,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>so let =
me state clearly once more that the ephemeral requirements document =
seems to be incomplete:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0 =
3.5.=C2=A0 Minimal sub-set of Changes to NETCONF<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ephemeral-REQ-07: The =
minimal set of changes are: (TBD).<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Potential set: =
TBD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: I2RS protocol design =
team is working to complete this set of<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 minimal =
changes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>I assume you will need another WG last call once =
the missing pieces have been filled in.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>I am =
also not sure 'the NETMOD/NETCONF WGs have spent a great deal of time' - =
I think it was more a design team that involves people active in NETMOD =
and NETCONF.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>/js<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>On =
Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 10:36:30PM -0400, Susan Hares =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Carlos: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Very good question.=C2=A0 You are correct traceability was WG LC 4 =
months ago (6/12/2015) and pub/sub (10/2/2015).=C2=A0 This fine work =
paved the way for the rest of the I2RS requirements to be completed. The =
NETMOD/NETCONF chairs know these drafts have reached WG consensus. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
However, the other components of the I2RS requirements for the I2RS =
protocol were not complete (I2rs security, I2rs ephemeral state).=C2=A0 =
This WG LC asks the WG to review all the I2RS requirements as a whole =
group to see that the whole package of requirements are consistent. This =
WG LC will not change the results of the pub/sub WG LCs, but other eyes =
may review and provide you with additional review comments (always =
good).=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
The I2RS WG, NETCONF/NETMOD WG, and the early I2RS protocol design team =
have spent a great deal of time in July =E2=80=93 September working =
through the other requirements for the I2RS protocol so this WG LC (10/6 =
to 10/20)=C2=A0 is for the WG to consider all the WG requirements at one =
time.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
The 10/7/2015 I2RS interim provided some initial work on an I2RS =
strawman for the I2RS protocol.=C2=A0 The 10/21/2015 I2RS interim will =
provide addition details on the strawman based on all of these =
requirements. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Thank you for asking this question,<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Sue Hares<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
From: i2rs [<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.=
org</span></a>] On Behalf Of Carlos <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Pignataro (cpignata)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:25 =
PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; To: Susan =
Hares<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Cc: Jeffrey Haas; <a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>i2rs@ietf.org</span></a>;=
 Alia Atlas<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; Subject: Re: =
[i2rs] WG LC for requirement documents (10/6 to <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 10/20/2015) -<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Hi, Sue,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Sorry, I am a bit confused =E2=80=94 draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability =
finished WG LC over 4 months ago.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Looking at <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/his=
tory/"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/history/</span></a> you might =
recall:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
2015-06-12=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
03=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Susan =
Hares=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF WG state changed to WG Consensus: Waiting =
for Write-Up from In WG Last Call<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; 2015-05-26=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
02=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Susan =
Hares=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 WG LC (5/26 to 6/9) for inclusion in =
requirements<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
2015-05-26=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
02=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Susan =
Hares=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF WG state changed to In WG Last Call from WG =
Document<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
And so did draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements BTW.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
What is the goal of this new WG LC?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
=E2=80=94 Carlos.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; On =
Oct 6, 2015, at 8:16 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>shares@ndzh.com</span></a=
>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
This begins a 2 week WG LC on the following requirement documents for =
I2RS: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</span></a>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/"=
><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
Note: I2RS ephemeral state has a section on minimal NETCONF =
Changes.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; This section is blank and =
this will be discussed at the 10/17/2015 interim.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; We =
will discuss whether this section should be kept or removed.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&lt;http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-req=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; uirements/&gt; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security=
-requ"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requ</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; irements/<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
&lt;http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; &gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requireme=
nts/"><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; =
draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText>&gt;=C2=A0 &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability/"><s=
pan =
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From nobody Thu Oct 15 08:45:18 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Joe: 

Joe:

Great questions - see below. 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Clarke
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:06 AM
To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
simplification for initial I2RS protocol

On 10/14/15 23:20, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Joe:
>>
>> There will be some groups of data model have dependencies between
objects.
>> Some Client interactions will be orthogonal to each other.   If there are
>> groupings, then the dependencies may leave the I2RS agent and routing 
>> system in an unknown state.

>Sure.

>>
>> The "all-or-nothing" is the normal case for NETCONF/RESTCONF. If 
>> clients are based on the Netconf/RESTCONF code base, this will be the 
>> simple upward change.

>RESTCONF does do all-or-none, but typically operations apply to one data
element at a time.  >Clients would need to include multiple sub-operations
for a, say, a PATCH.  So, if I understand >correctly, there would be burden
on the Client that uses RESTCONF and multi-messages for a >single
"transaction" to handle the backout?
 
Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the burden is
on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.  You have hit
upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the burden of this back-out
instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server" concept).  

Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will it make
the I2RS clients unworkable? 

>Joe

>
> The I2RS agent needs to provide notification for error on writing for
> priority conflict, and for other errors.   The Stop-on-error would also
need
> to provide this input.
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Clarke [mailto:jclarke@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:56 AM
> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>
> On 10/13/15 04:57, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Currently the I2RS requirements have error handling having three parts:
>>
>> 1)"all-or-nothing",
>>
>> 2)"continue-on-error", and
>>
>> 3)"stop-on-error".
>>
>> To provide an easier first step for the I2RS Agent for the first
>> implementation of an I2RS protocol,  the I2RS protocol design team
>> suggests reduce this to the "all-or-nothing" for the initial version.
>> Later versions of the I2RS protocol can provide the "continue-on-error"
>> or "stop-on-error" error handling.  The earlier decision in the I2RS
>> architecture was to support all 3 error handling pieces.
>
> It seems to me the latter two would be easier to implement as the Client
> continues to fire (until not told to do so in the stop-on-error case) and
> the Agent wouldn't have to track all operations for rollback.
>
> Is the assumption that most I2RS transactions will have mutual
dependencies,
> and this is the most common error case?
>
> Joe
>

_______________________________________________
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From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the burden is
> on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.  You have hit
> upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the burden of this back-out
> instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server" concept).
>
> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will it make
> the I2RS clients unworkable?

I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it doesn't 
seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they understand that 
the burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be communicated?  Will 
the architecture be updated?

I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error handling 
techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?

Joe


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Joe: 

Thank you for letting me know the "all-or-nothing" will be workable for you.


The I2RS architecture will be updated to indicate that the initial pass on
error handling for the I2RS client will only be required "all-or-nothing",
but may do "stop-on-error", or "continue-on-error".   My understanding is
that the hello, module library, and other mechanisms in netconf/restconf can
signal this.  

Give me about 24 hours to check my answers on signaling support with the
NETCONF/RESTCONf methodology for indicating in the NETCONF Hello or modules
library with Andy, Kent and other NETCONF/RESTCONF experts. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Clarke
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:17 PM
To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
simplification for initial I2RS protocol

On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the 
> burden is on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.  
> You have hit upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the 
> burden of this back-out instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server"
concept).
>
> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will 
> it make the I2RS clients unworkable?

I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it doesn't
seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they understand that the
burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be communicated?  Will the
architecture be updated?

I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error handling
techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?

Joe

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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To: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, i2rs@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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In terms of making clear this constraint, I would expect whatever RFC 
describes the protocol to be used for I2RS would indicate that although 
the archtiecture requested the three behaviors, the current protocol 
only supports "all-or-none."  Assuming we can find ways to use NetConf 
or RestConf, I presume that will be an applicability / usage document 
rather than a protocol definition document.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/15/15 1:17 PM, Joe Clarke wrote:
> On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the
>> burden is
>> on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.  You have
>> hit
>> upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the burden of this
>> back-out
>> instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server" concept).
>>
>> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will
>> it make
>> the I2RS clients unworkable?
>
> I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it doesn't
> seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they understand that
> the burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be communicated?  Will
> the architecture be updated?
>
> I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error handling
> techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?
>
> Joe
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


From nobody Thu Oct 15 13:41:14 2015
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, 'Joe Clarke' <jclarke@cisco.com>, i2rs@ietf.org
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Actually Sue, I would strongly prefer NOT to update the archtiecture.
My primary reason is stability.
My secondary reason is that I believe the working group would still like 
to see the other behaviors, but is compromising on the protocol delivery.

Which is why my email suggested that the protocol document is the right 
place to clearly state the choice.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/15/15 1:58 PM, Susan Hares wrote:
> Joe:
>
> Thank you for letting me know the "all-or-nothing" will be workable for you.
>
>
> The I2RS architecture will be updated to indicate that the initial pass on
> error handling for the I2RS client will only be required "all-or-nothing",
> but may do "stop-on-error", or "continue-on-error".   My understanding is
> that the hello, module library, and other mechanisms in netconf/restconf can
> signal this.
>
> Give me about 24 hours to check my answers on signaling support with the
> NETCONF/RESTCONf methodology for indicating in the NETCONF Hello or modules
> library with Andy, Kent and other NETCONF/RESTCONF experts.
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Clarke
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:17 PM
> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>
> On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the
>> burden is on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.
>> You have hit upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the
>> burden of this back-out instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server"
> concept).
>>
>> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will
>> it make the I2RS clients unworkable?
>
> I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it doesn't
> seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they understand that the
> burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be communicated?  Will the
> architecture be updated?
>
> I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error handling
> techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?
>
> Joe
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


From nobody Thu Oct 15 14:00:17 2015
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCONF, HTTP/2
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCONF, HTTP/2
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Hello all,

just as an FYI, "draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push" that we had posted in Netco=
nf earlier this week (to cover I2RS requirements, as noted by Eric earlier)=
 has now become "draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-00".  The WG draft is now pos=
ted here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/

Kind regards
--- Alex


From: Eric Voit (evoit)
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:48 PM
To: i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>; Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (alber=
tgo) <albertgo@cisco.com>; Ambika Prasad Tripathy (ambtripa) <ambtripa@cisc=
o.com>; Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn) <einarnn@cisco.com>
Subject: I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCONF, HTT=
P/2

We just posted two drafts in NETCONF.  These drafts technology specificatio=
ns aiming to cover the requirements from I2RS as per:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/
These drafts are:

(1)  Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates (updated)
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push-02.txt

(2) Restconf subscription and HTTP push for YANG datastores (new)
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restconf-yang-push-00.txt
   Draft (2) is new in that it:

*     proposes Restconf subscription and push mechanisms to continuously st=
ream information from YANG datastores over HTTP

*     provides a mechanism to support static subscriptions so that an opera=
tor can stream updates over HTTP without Restconf

*     provides YANG model extensions to leverage HTTP/2 so that individual =
subscriptions can get custom treatment via their own HTTP streams.

If you are interested, please come over and follow the discussions in NETCO=
NF.  Thanks!

- Alexander Clemm, Eric Voit, Alberto Gonzalez Prieto, Ambika Prasad Tripat=
hy, & Einar Nilsen-Nygaard





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">just as an FYI, &#8220;draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push=
&#8221; that we had posted in Netconf earlier this week (to cover I2RS requ=
irements, as noted by Eric earlier) has now become &#8220;draft-ietf-netcon=
f-yang-push-00&#8221;.&nbsp; The WG draft is now posted here:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-netconf-yang-push/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-=
yang-push/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--- Alex<span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:JA"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Voit (evoit) <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> i2rs@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;alex@cisco.com&gt;; Alberto Gonzalez =
Prieto (albertgo) &lt;albertgo@cisco.com&gt;; Ambika Prasad Tripathy (ambtr=
ipa) &lt;ambtripa@cisco.com&gt;; Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn) &lt;einarnn=
@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> I2RS requirements in YANG PubSub drafts for NETCONF, RESTCO=
NF, HTTP/2<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We just posted two drafts in NETCONF.&nbsp; These dr=
afts technology specifications aiming to cover the requirements from I2RS a=
s per:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements/</a><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These drafts are:<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(1)&nbsp; Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates=
 (updated)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netcon=
f-yang-push-02.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-clemm-netconf-yang-push-02=
.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(2) Restconf subscription and HTTP push for YANG dat=
astores (new)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restcon=
f-yang-push-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-voit-restconf-yang-push-00=
.txt</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:6.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Draft (=
2) is new in that it:<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span>proposes Restconf subscription and push mechanisms to continuously s=
tream information from YANG datastores over HTTP
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span>provides a mechanism to support static subscriptions so that an oper=
ator can stream updates over HTTP without Restconf<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:31.5pt;text-indent:-13.5=
pt"><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol">&middot;</span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span>provides YANG model extensions to leverage HTTP/2 so that individual=
 subscriptions can get custom treatment via their own HTTP streams.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you are interested, please come over and follow t=
he discussions in NETCONF.&nbsp; Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Alexander Clemm, Eric Voit, Alberto Gonzalez Priet=
o, Ambika Prasad Tripathy, &amp; Einar Nilsen-Nygaard<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
Thread-Index: AQHRAmpn2WDjXB7SH0yyXI3vdDB1jJ5jMMMAgAZwt4CAAFZcgP//3TyAgALyRYCAAGEWAA==
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 21:12:16 +0000
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References: <7E24547E-B42B-46E2-AF76-F7639D61963F@nic.cz> <D23D3103.34500%acee@cisco.com> <D2429721.34A0E%acee@cisco.com> <DBF22257-A7A2-4679-927A-EBCC1022FE13@nic.cz> <D242C30E.34C2A%acee@cisco.com> <m27fmowezi.fsf@birdie.labs.nic.cz>
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From nobody Thu Oct 15 14:52:27 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Joel: 
+1 to Joel's comments. 

As always, thank you for clarifying my feeble words,

Sue Hares 

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:39 PM
To: Joe Clarke; Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
simplification for initial I2RS protocol

In terms of making clear this constraint, I would expect whatever RFC
describes the protocol to be used for I2RS would indicate that although the
archtiecture requested the three behaviors, the current protocol only
supports "all-or-none."  Assuming we can find ways to use NetConf or
RestConf, I presume that will be an applicability / usage document rather
than a protocol definition document.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/15/15 1:17 PM, Joe Clarke wrote:
> On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the 
>> burden is on the client to handle the backing out of data in 
>> RESTCONF.  You have hit upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is 
>> bearing the burden of this back-out instead of the I2RS agent 
>> (Netconf "server" concept).
>>
>> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will 
>> it make the I2RS clients unworkable?
>
> I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it 
> doesn't seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they 
> understand that the burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be 
> communicated?  Will the architecture be updated?
>
> I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error 
> handling techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?
>
> Joe
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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Joel: 

I OK with this approach as well - because we can note the reduction in the
combined protocol requirements document.   We will eventually get to the
architecture full scope after getting experience.  

Joe - what do you think?  Will this work for you? 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:41 PM
To: Susan Hares; 'Joe Clarke'; i2rs@ietf.org
Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
simplification for initial I2RS protocol

Actually Sue, I would strongly prefer NOT to update the archtiecture.
My primary reason is stability.
My secondary reason is that I believe the working group would still like to
see the other behaviors, but is compromising on the protocol delivery.

Which is why my email suggested that the protocol document is the right
place to clearly state the choice.

Yours,
Joel

On 10/15/15 1:58 PM, Susan Hares wrote:
> Joe:
>
> Thank you for letting me know the "all-or-nothing" will be workable for
you.
>
>
> The I2RS architecture will be updated to indicate that the initial 
> pass on error handling for the I2RS client will only be required
"all-or-nothing",
> but may do "stop-on-error", or "continue-on-error".   My understanding is
> that the hello, module library, and other mechanisms in 
> netconf/restconf can signal this.
>
> Give me about 24 hours to check my answers on signaling support with 
> the NETCONF/RESTCONf methodology for indicating in the NETCONF Hello 
> or modules library with Andy, Kent and other NETCONF/RESTCONF experts.
>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Clarke
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:17 PM
> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling 
> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>
> On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the 
>> burden is on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.
>> You have hit upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the 
>> burden of this back-out instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server"
> concept).
>>
>> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will 
>> it make the I2RS clients unworkable?
>
> I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it 
> doesn't seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they 
> understand that the burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be 
> communicated?  Will the architecture be updated?
>
> I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error 
> handling techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?
>
> Joe
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>


From nobody Thu Oct 15 16:00:01 2015
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:59:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hello Juergen,=20

responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@=
ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz=
>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
>=20
> The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was=20
> also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring to).
> It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing=20
> configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect etc=20
> .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated by the=20
> server whereas some topologies can be populated by client=20
> applications.

Yes, this is what the concern is about.

> We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", having=20
> a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro) branch for=20
> topologies "in effect".

This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to what was d=
riving us for years, namely to clearly separate config from state. This mod=
ule makes this distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model sp=
ecific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to under=
stand this.

<ALEX>
I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with regards to=
 openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied configuration".  If Y=
ANG had an existing solution for this, we would not have this discussion.  =
The reason I believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied conf=
iguration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our=
 case), and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intend=
ed network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical - w=
hereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has an accompan=
ying "intended configuration", in our case this is not necessarily the case=
 - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by the se=
rver / the network itself, not configured by anybody. =20
</ALEX>


> We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of information=20
> would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this is not your=20
> normal config vs oper data distinction, but would essentially reflect=20
> a limitation of the framework), leading to unnecessary additional=20
> complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two=20
> places), more complex validation rules, etc.

I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data distinctio=
n. Please explain.

<ALEX>
A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC 7233 - =
separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of configuration, othe=
r clearly operational data. =20
In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However, in some=
 cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the server.  YANG req=
uires the categorization of data as config false or true.  In this case, th=
is categorization does not always apply - or, the categorization depends on=
 the particular instance. =20
</ALEX>=20

I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
Please explain.

<ALEX>

One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20

We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one network is s=
upported by a node in an underlay network.  For this purpose, we are refere=
ncing a node in another (underlay) network.  So that we cannot reference an=
 arbitrary node in an arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the supp=
orting node is part of a "supporting-network" of the same network.=20

Currently, we have the following definition:

   list supporting-node {
        key "network-ref node-ref";
        description
          "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=20
           this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=20
           structure.";
        leaf network-ref {
          type leafref {
            path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
          }
          description
            "References the underlay network that the=20
             underlay node is part of.";
        }
        leaf node-ref {
          type leafref {
            path "/network/node/node-id";
          }
          description
            "References the underlay node itself.";
        }
      }


If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will have to ac=
count for the fact that the supporting node could be either part of a "conf=
igured" network itself, or of a network that has been "server-provided".  T=
hat is, we need to be able to allow for both possibilities. =20

To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be part o=
f the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace network-ref with a=
 choice of two nodes that reference either a server-provided network ("bran=
ch 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to=
 introduce a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  A=
ll of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an=
 easier way? =20

</ALEX>

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Fri Oct 16 05:26:24 2015
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "'Joel M. Halpern'" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,  i2rs@ietf.org
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From: Joe Clarke <jclarke@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling simplification for initial I2RS protocol
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On 10/15/15 18:44, Susan Hares wrote:
> Joel:
>
> I OK with this approach as well - because we can note the reduction in the
> combined protocol requirements document.   We will eventually get to the
> architecture full scope after getting experience.
>
> Joe - what do you think?  Will this work for you?

Yes.  This makes good sense.

Joe

>
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 4:41 PM
> To: Susan Hares; 'Joe Clarke'; i2rs@ietf.org
> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>
> Actually Sue, I would strongly prefer NOT to update the archtiecture.
> My primary reason is stability.
> My secondary reason is that I believe the working group would still like to
> see the other behaviors, but is compromising on the protocol delivery.
>
> Which is why my email suggested that the protocol document is the right
> place to clearly state the choice.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 10/15/15 1:58 PM, Susan Hares wrote:
>> Joe:
>>
>> Thank you for letting me know the "all-or-nothing" will be workable for
> you.
>>
>>
>> The I2RS architecture will be updated to indicate that the initial
>> pass on error handling for the I2RS client will only be required
> "all-or-nothing",
>> but may do "stop-on-error", or "continue-on-error".   My understanding is
>> that the hello, module library, and other mechanisms in
>> netconf/restconf can signal this.
>>
>> Give me about 24 hours to check my answers on signaling support with
>> the NETCONF/RESTCONf methodology for indicating in the NETCONF Hello
>> or modules library with Andy, Kent and other NETCONF/RESTCONF experts.
>>
>> Sue
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Clarke
>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 1:17 PM
>> To: Susan Hares; i2rs@ietf.org
>> Cc: jhaas@pfrc.org; 'Alia Atlas'
>> Subject: Re: [i2rs] Call for Input from WG: I2RS error handling
>> simplification for initial I2RS protocol
>>
>> On 10/15/15 11:45, Susan Hares wrote:
>>> Yes - multiple sub-operation in RESTCONF requires a PATCH, and the
>>> burden is on the client to handle the backing out of data in RESTCONF.
>>> You have hit upon the challenge.  The I2RS client is bearing the
>>> burden of this back-out instead of the I2RS agent (Netconf "server"
>> concept).
>>>
>>> Do you think this is reasonable to keep the I2RS agents simple? Will
>>> it make the I2RS clients unworkable?
>>
>> I can't answer an behalf of all I2RS Client implementors, but it
>> doesn't seem like an undue burden.  It's just critical that they
>> understand that the burden is upon them.  How is this decision to be
>> communicated?  Will the architecture be updated?
>>
>> I assume that Agent implementors _could_ do the other two error
>> handling techniques if they wanted and advertise this to the Client?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> i2rs mailing list
>> i2rs@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>>
>


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hello Juergen, 
> 
> responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> 
> --- Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> > 
> > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the 
> > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was 
> > also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring to).
> > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing 
> > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect etc 
> > .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated by the 
> > server whereas some topologies can be populated by client 
> > applications.
> 
> Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> 
> > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", having 
> > a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro) branch for 
> > topologies "in effect".
> 
> This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to understand this.
> 
> <ALEX>
> I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not necessarily the case - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.  
> </ALEX>

I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your
'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and
not configuration data.
 
> > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of information 
> > would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this is not your 
> > normal config vs oper data distinction, but would essentially reflect 
> > a limitation of the framework), leading to unnecessary additional 
> > complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two 
> > places), more complex validation rules, etc.
> 
> I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data distinction. Please explain.
> 
> <ALEX>
> A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of configuration, other clearly operational data.  
> In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the server.  YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.  In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the categorization depends on the particular instance.  
> </ALEX>

So you have operational state which is partially populated by the
server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is
any different from other cases, including network interfaces as
defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow
configuration data to depend on state data.

> I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> Please explain.
> 
> <ALEX>
> 
> One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.  
> 
> We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.  So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of a "supporting-network" of the same network. 
> 
> Currently, we have the following definition:
> 
>    list supporting-node {
>         key "network-ref node-ref";
>         description
>           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that 
>            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering 
>            structure.";
>         leaf network-ref {
>           type leafref {
>             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
>           }
>           description
>             "References the underlay network that the 
>              underlay node is part of.";
>         }
>         leaf node-ref {
>           type leafref {
>             path "/network/node/node-id";
>           }
>           description
>             "References the underlay node itself.";
>         }
/
>       }
> 
> 
> If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow for both possibilities.

Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend
on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?

> To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?  
> 
> </ALEX>

I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on
config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the
datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3
and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a
leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is
violating the distinction between configuration and state data.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Sun Oct 18 20:30:25 2015
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Data Model for Routing Information Base (RIB)
        Authors         : Lixing Wang
                          Hariharan Ananthakrishnan
                          Mach(Guoyi) Chen
                          Amit Dass
                          Sriganesh Kini
                          Nitin Bahadur
	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-02.txt
	Pages           : 60
	Date            : 2015-10-18

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model for Routing Information Base
   (RIB) that aligns with the I2RS RIB information model.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-data-model-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Juergen,

I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
" Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on stat=
e data."

Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current model is =
essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this flag to indica=
te who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).   =20

You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce operationa=
l data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However, doing that int=
roduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought another argument w=
hy this may be a bad idea and may not even work.  Topologies _are_ layered,=
 and we need to be able to express that in the model.  Now, if we have a to=
pology that is server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represente=
d by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "co=
nfigured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate th=
e server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes no s=
ense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all ref=
erences / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem =
to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express vertical relation=
ships.  Not a good solution, IMHO. =20

How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering relati=
onships between topologies, including cases where topologies originate from=
 different sources (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a require=
ment.  It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to =
capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of doing this =
within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we find a way to do thi=
s.  The current solution to this - having the model as configuration data, =
and including a parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintain=
ing it - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "leas=
t bad") that results in the model of least complexity.  =20

Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the "server-provided"=
 object to address your concerns?  We can make it config (to address your i=
ssue that triggered this, the presence of a r/o object in a tree that is ot=
herwise r/w). =20

Thoughts?
--- Alex



-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=20
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@t=
ail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.=
com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hello Juergen,
>=20
> responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder=20
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;=20
> i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka=20
> <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'=20
> <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> >=20
> > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was=20
> > also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring to).
> > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing=20
> > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect=20
> > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated by=20
> > the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client=20
> > applications.
>=20
> Yes, this is what the concern is about.
>=20
> > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",=20
> > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro)=20
> > branch for topologies "in effect".
>=20
> This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to what was=
 driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config from state. This m=
odule makes this distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model =
specific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to und=
erstand this.
>=20
> <ALEX>
> I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with regards =
to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied configuration".  If=
 YANG had an existing solution for this, we would not have this discussion.=
  The reason I believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied co=
nfiguration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in o=
ur case), and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or inte=
nded network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical -=
 whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has an accomp=
anying "intended configuration", in our case this is not necessarily the ca=
se - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by the =
server / the network itself, not configured by anybody. =20
> </ALEX>

I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your 'serve=
r supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and not configur=
ation data.
=20
> > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this=20
> > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would=20
> > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to=20
> > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation=20
> > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules, etc.
>=20
> I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data distinct=
ion. Please explain.
>=20
> <ALEX>
> A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC 7233 =
- separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of configuration, ot=
her clearly operational data. =20
> In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However, in so=
me cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the server.  YANG r=
equires the categorization of data as config false or true.  In this case, =
this categorization does not always apply - or, the categorization depends =
on the particular instance. =20
> </ALEX>

So you have operational state which is partially populated by the server an=
d partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is any different =
from other cases, including network interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Reca=
ll also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on state data=
.

> I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> Please explain.
>=20
> <ALEX>
>=20
> One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
>=20
> We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one network is=
 supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this purpose, we are refe=
rencing a node in another (underlay) network.  So that we cannot reference =
an arbitrary node in an arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the su=
pporting node is part of a "supporting-network" of the same network.=20
>=20
> Currently, we have the following definition:
>=20
>    list supporting-node {
>         key "network-ref node-ref";
>         description
>           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=20
>            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=20
>            structure.";
>         leaf network-ref {
>           type leafref {
>             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
>           }
>           description
>             "References the underlay network that the=20
>              underlay node is part of.";
>         }
>         leaf node-ref {
>           type leafref {
>             path "/network/node/node-id";
>           }
>           description
>             "References the underlay node itself.";
>         }
/
>       }
>=20
>=20
> If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will have to =
account for the fact that the supporting node could be either part of a "co=
nfigured" network itself, or of a network that has been "server-provided". =
 That is, we need to be able to allow for both possibilities.

Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend on st=
ate data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?

> To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be part=
 of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace network-ref with=
 a choice of two nodes that reference either a server-provided network ("br=
anch 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have =
to introduce a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node. =
 All of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see =
an easier way? =20
>=20
> </ALEX>

I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on conf=
ig true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the datastore wh=
ere the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3 and section 7.19=
.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a leafref may only point =
to configuration. I believe this I-D is violating the distinction between c=
onfiguration and state data.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:28:42 2015
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Alex,

Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if
the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
(conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by
anyone with proper access rights? 


/martin



"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
> I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on
> state data."
> 
> Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current
> model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this
> flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
> 
> You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,
> doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought
> another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in
> the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence
> (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how
> do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If
> the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided
> topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we
> are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all
> references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the
> problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express
> vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> 
> How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering
> relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies
> originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs
> configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it
> is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may
> not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to
> indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be
> cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that
> results in the model of least complexity.
> 
> Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it
> config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a
> r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> 
> Thoughts?
> --- Alex
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares
> <shares@ndzh.com>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> wrote:
> > Hello Juergen,
> > 
> > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > 
> > --- Alex
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder 
> > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 
> > i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka 
> > <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' 
> > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the 
> > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that was 
> > > also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring to).
> > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing 
> > > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect 
> > > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated by 
> > > the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client 
> > > applications.
> > 
> > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > 
> > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", 
> > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro) 
> > > branch for topologies "in effect".
> > 
> > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to what
> > was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config from
> > state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property
> > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic
> > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > 
> > <ALEX>
> > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with
> > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied
> > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would
> > not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is
> > that you can view the "applied configuration" as the "server-provided
> > configuration" (network topology, in our case), and the "intended
> > configuration" as the, well, configured or intended network topology
> > in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical - whereas in the
> > openconfig case every "applied configuration" has an accompanying
> > "intended configuration", in our case this is not necessarily the case
> > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by
> > the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > </ALEX>
> 
> I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your
> 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and
> not configuration data.
>  
> > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of 
> > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this 
> > > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would 
> > > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to 
> > > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation 
> > > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,
> > > etc.
> > 
> > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data
> > distinction. Please explain.
> > 
> > <ALEX>
> > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC
> > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of
> > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However, in
> > some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the server.
> > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.  In
> > this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the
> > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > </ALEX>
> 
> So you have operational state which is partially populated by the
> server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is
> any different from other cases, including network interfaces as
> defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow
> configuration data to depend on state data.
> 
> > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > Please explain.
> > 
> > <ALEX>
> > 
> > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.  
> > 
> > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one network
> > is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this purpose, we
> > are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.  So that we
> > cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary network, we want to
> > make sure that the supporting node is part of a "supporting-network"
> > of the same network.
> > 
> > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > 
> >    list supporting-node {
> >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> >         description
> >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that 
> >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering 
> >            structure.";
> >         leaf network-ref {
> >           type leafref {
> >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> >           }
> >           description
> >             "References the underlay network that the 
> >              underlay node is part of.";
> >         }
> >         leaf node-ref {
> >           type leafref {
> >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> >           }
> >           description
> >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> >         }
> /
> >       }
> > 
> > 
> > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will have
> > to account for the fact that the supporting node could be either part
> > of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that has been
> > "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow for both
> > possibilities.
> 
> Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend
> on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> 
> > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be
> > part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace
> > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a
> > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network ("branch
> > 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way to
> > reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results in
> > considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?
> > 
> > </ALEX>
> 
> I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on
> config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the
> datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3
> and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a
> leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is
> violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 19 11:36:23 2015
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Subject: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Routing Information Base Info Model
        Authors         : Nitin Bahadur
                          Sriganesh Kini
                          Jan Medved
	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2015-10-19

Abstract:
   Routing and routing functions in enterprise and carrier networks are
   typically performed by network devices (routers and switches) using a
   routing information base (RIB).  Protocols and configuration push
   data into the RIB and the RIB manager installs state into the
   hardware; for packet forwarding.  This draft specifies an information
   model for the RIB to enable defining a standardized data model.  Such
   a data model can be used to define an interface to the RIB from an
   entity that may even be external to the network device.  This
   interface can be used to support new use-cases being defined by the
   IETF I2RS WG.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin,

One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app (which c=
ould be embedded on the same server) that knows how to discover the network=
, then populates the data accordingly. =20

[Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to "mes=
s" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to this wil=
l be restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that were populated b=
y the "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is t=
he "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]

So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of cavea=
ts. =20
--- Alex


-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de=
; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Alex,

Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if the s=
erver wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
(conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by anyone w=
ith proper access rights?=20


/martin



"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
> I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on=20
> state data."
>=20
> Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current=20
> model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this=20
> flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
>=20
> You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce=20
> operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,=20
> doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought=20
> another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in=20
> the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence=20
> (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how=20
> do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If=20
> the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided=20
> topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we=20
> are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all=20
> references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the=20
> problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express=20
> vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
>=20
> How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering=20
> relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies=20
> originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs=20
> configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it=20
> is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may=20
> not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is=20
> important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to=20
> indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be=20
> cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that=20
> results in the model of least complexity.
>=20
> Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it=20
> config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a=20
> r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
>=20
> Thoughts?
> --- Alex
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares=20
> <shares@ndzh.com>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> wrote:
> > Hello Juergen,
> >=20
> > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> >=20
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatla=
s@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > wrote:
> > >=20
> > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that=20
> > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring t=
o).
> > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing=20
> > > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect=20
> > > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated=20
> > > by the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client=20
> > > applications.
> >=20
> > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> >=20
> > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",=20
> > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro)=20
> > > branch for topologies "in effect".
> >=20
> > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to=20
> > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config=20
> > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property=20
> > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic=20
> > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> >=20
> > <ALEX>
> > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with=20
> > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied=20
> > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would=20
> > not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is=20
> > that you can view the "applied configuration" as the=20
> > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), and=20
> > the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intended=20
> > network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical=20
> > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has=20
> > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not=20
> > necessarily the case
> > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by=20
> > the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > </ALEX>
>=20
> I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your=20
> 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and=20
> not configuration data.
> =20
> > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this=20
> > > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would=20
> > > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to=20
> > > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation=20
> > > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,=20
> > > etc.
> >=20
> > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data=20
> > distinction. Please explain.
> >=20
> > <ALEX>
> > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC
> > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of=20
> > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However,=20
> > in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the server=
.
> > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true. =20
> > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the=20
> > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > </ALEX>
>=20
> So you have operational state which is partially populated by the=20
> server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is=20
> any different from other cases, including network interfaces as=20
> defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow=20
> configuration data to depend on state data.
>=20
> > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > Please explain.
> >=20
> > <ALEX>
> >=20
> > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> >=20
> > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one=20
> > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this=20
> > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network. =20
> > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary=20
> > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of a "su=
pporting-network"
> > of the same network.
> >=20
> > Currently, we have the following definition:
> >=20
> >    list supporting-node {
> >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> >         description
> >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=20
> >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=20
> >            structure.";
> >         leaf network-ref {
> >           type leafref {
> >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> >           }
> >           description
> >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> >              underlay node is part of.";
> >         }
> >         leaf node-ref {
> >           type leafref {
> >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> >           }
> >           description
> >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> >         }
> /
> >       }
> >=20
> >=20
> > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will=20
> > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be=20
> > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that=20
> > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow=20
> > for both possibilities.
>=20
> Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend=20
> on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
>=20
> > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be=20
> > part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace=20
> > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a=20
> > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network=20
> > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way=20
> > to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results=20
> > in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?
> >=20
> > </ALEX>
>=20
> I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on=20
> config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the=20
> datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3=20
> and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a=20
> leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is=20
> violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>=20

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From: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin and Alex,

Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access right t=
hat the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived from other obje=
cts in the system.

Regards,

- Xufeng


> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:05 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de;
> andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app (which=
 could
> be embedded on the same server) that knows how to discover the network, t=
hen
> populates the data accordingly.
>=20
> [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to "m=
ess"
> with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to this will=
 be
> restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that were populated by t=
he
> "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the "=
server-
> provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
>=20
> So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of cav=
eats.
> --- Alex
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Alex,
>=20
> Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if the=
 server
> wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
> (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by anyone=
 with
> proper access rights?
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> >
> > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on
> > state data."
> >
> > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current
> > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this
> > flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
> >
> > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,
> > doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought
> > another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in
> > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence
> > (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how
> > do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If
> > the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided
> > topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we
> > are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all
> > references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the
> > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express
> > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> >
> > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering
> > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies
> > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs
> > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it
> > is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may
> > not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to
> > indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be
> > cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that
> > results in the model of least complexity.
> >
> > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it
> > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a
> > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> >
> > Thoughts?
> > --- Alex
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares
> > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > wrote:
> > > Hello Juergen,
> > >
> > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > >
> > > --- Alex
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman
> > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the
> > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that
> > > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring=
 to).
> > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing
> > > > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect
> > > > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated
> > > > by the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client
> > > > applications.
> > >
> > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > >
> > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",
> > > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro)
> > > > branch for topologies "in effect".
> > >
> > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to
> > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config
> > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property
> > > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic
> > > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > >
> > > <ALEX>
> > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with
> > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied
> > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would
> > > not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is
> > > that you can view the "applied configuration" as the
> > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), and
> > > the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intended
> > > network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has
> > > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not
> > > necessarily the case
> > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by
> > > the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > </ALEX>
> >
> > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your
> > 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and
> > not configuration data.
> >
> > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this
> > > > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would
> > > > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to
> > > > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation
> > > > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,
> > > > etc.
> > >
> > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data
> > > distinction. Please explain.
> > >
> > > <ALEX>
> > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC
> > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of
> > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However,
> > > in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the serv=
er.
> > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.
> > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the
> > > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > </ALEX>
> >
> > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the
> > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is
> > any different from other cases, including network interfaces as
> > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow
> > configuration data to depend on state data.
> >
> > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > Please explain.
> > >
> > > <ALEX>
> > >
> > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.
> > >
> > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one
> > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this
> > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary
> > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of a
> "supporting-network"
> > > of the same network.
> > >
> > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > >
> > >    list supporting-node {
> > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > >         description
> > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that
> > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering
> > >            structure.";
> > >         leaf network-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay network that the
> > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > >         }
> > >         leaf node-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > >         }
> > /
> > >       }
> > >
> > >
> > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will
> > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be
> > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that
> > > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow
> > > for both possibilities.
> >
> > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend
> > on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> >
> > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be
> > > part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace
> > > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a
> > > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network
> > > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way
> > > to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results
> > > in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?
> > >
> > > </ALEX>
> >
> > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on
> > config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the
> > datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3
> > and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a
> > leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is
> > violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> >
> > /js
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>
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References: <7dd9f7cb8b3e428c8c0dcb649665762d@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151018101316.GC78503@elstar.local> <b9b6c455f60e4b5da8c104ecfe7bd561@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151019.203216.710736168596706388.mbj@tail-f.com> <dafc964378b344e1baf0fbe0c214822c@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <AAB1CC9C17CBA440BDFA169056B93B9E127D44DA@eusaamb107.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 07:08:01PM +0000, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> Hi Martin and Alex,
> 
> Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access right that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived from other objects in the system.
>

This sounds remarkably like operational state...

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwael=
der
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:41 PM
> To: Xufeng Liu
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund; Alexander Clemm (alex=
);
> andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 07:08:01PM +0000, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > Hi Martin and Alex,
> >
> > Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access rig=
ht
> that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived from other o=
bjects
> in the system.
> >
>=20
> This sounds remarkably like operational state...

[Xufeng] But configuration objects can be built on top of these.

>=20
> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 06:24:10PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> 
> I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on state data."
> 
> Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).    
>

I expect that config true objects can be modified by clients. And I
expect that client maintained config true objects do not depend on
server provided operational state. The 'server-provided' leaf seems to
'overrule' both principles.

> You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.  Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.

In the interfaces model, this problem got solved via name bindings. I
can configure an interface but as long as the matching interface is
not present, the config won't be applied to the interface. Translated
to your domain, I can configure an overlay that refers by name to
other layers. If those layers do not operationally exist, the overlay
will exist in config but not in the operational state tree.

> Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).

You can address my concern by doing away with 'server-provided' and by
properly separating config from operational state. ;-) Assuming proper
authorization, a NC/RC client should be able to change any object in a
configuration datastore. I am concerned about data model specific
'fences' that indicate that some portions of a configuration datastore
are behaving in special ways.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app
> (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to
> discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> 
> [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to
> "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to
> this will be restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that
> were populated by the "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by
> other apps - it is the "server-provided" app that is responsible for
> maintaining them.]
> 
> So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of
> caveats.

So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how
is it supposed to be used?


/martin



> --- Alex
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> Bjorklund
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> Alex,
> 
> Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if
> the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
> (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by
> anyone with proper access rights?
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> > 
> > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on
> > state data."
> > 
> > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current 
> > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this 
> > flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
> > 
> > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce 
> > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,
> > doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought
> > another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in 
> > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence 
> > (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how 
> > do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If
> > the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided 
> > topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we 
> > are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all 
> > references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the 
> > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express 
> > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > 
> > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering 
> > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies 
> > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs 
> > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it
> > is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may 
> > not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to 
> > indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be 
> > cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that 
> > results in the model of least complexity.
> > 
> > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the 
> > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it 
> > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a 
> > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > --- Alex
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund 
> > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares 
> > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > wrote:
> > > Hello Juergen,
> > > 
> > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > 
> > > --- Alex
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman 
> > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund 
> > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > 
> > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the 
> > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that 
> > > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring
> > > > to).
> > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing 
> > > > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect 
> > > > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated 
> > > > by the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client 
> > > > applications.
> > > 
> > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > 
> > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", 
> > > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro) 
> > > > branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > 
> > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to 
> > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config 
> > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property 
> > > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic 
> > > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > 
> > > <ALEX>
> > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with 
> > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied 
> > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would 
> > > not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is 
> > > that you can view the "applied configuration" as the 
> > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), and 
> > > the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intended 
> > > network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical 
> > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has 
> > > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not 
> > > necessarily the case
> > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by 
> > > the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > </ALEX>
> > 
> > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your 
> > 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and 
> > not configuration data.
> >  
> > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of 
> > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this 
> > > > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would 
> > > > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to 
> > > > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation 
> > > > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules, 
> > > > etc.
> > > 
> > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data 
> > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > 
> > > <ALEX>
> > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC
> > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of 
> > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However, 
> > > in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the
> > > server.
> > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.  
> > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the 
> > > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > </ALEX>
> > 
> > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the 
> > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is 
> > any different from other cases, including network interfaces as 
> > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow 
> > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > 
> > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > Please explain.
> > > 
> > > <ALEX>
> > > 
> > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.  
> > > 
> > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one 
> > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this 
> > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.  
> > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary 
> > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of a
> > > "supporting-network"
> > > of the same network.
> > > 
> > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > 
> > >    list supporting-node {
> > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > >         description
> > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that 
> > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering 
> > >            structure.";
> > >         leaf network-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay network that the 
> > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > >         }
> > >         leaf node-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > >         }
> > /
> > >       }
> > > 
> > > 
> > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will 
> > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be 
> > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that 
> > > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow 
> > > for both possibilities.
> > 
> > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend 
> > on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > 
> > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be 
> > > part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace 
> > > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a 
> > > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network 
> > > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way 
> > > to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results 
> > > in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?
> > > 
> > > </ALEX>
> > 
> > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on
> > config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the 
> > datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3
> > and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a 
> > leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is 
> > violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> > 
> > /js
> > 
> > -- 
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
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> 
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> 


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin and Alex,
> 
> Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access
> right that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived
> from other objects in the system.

That would be config false nodes, right?


/martin



> 
> Regards,
> 
> - Xufeng
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
> > (alex)
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:05 PM
> > To: Martin Bjorklund
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de;
> > andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > Hi Martin,
> > 
> > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app
> > (which could
> > be embedded on the same server) that knows how to discover the
> > network, then
> > populates the data accordingly.
> > 
> > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to
> > "mess"
> > with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to this
> > will be
> > restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that were populated
> > by the
> > "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is
> > the "server-
> > provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > 
> > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of
> > caveats.
> > --- Alex
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> > Bjorklund
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> > university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > Alex,
> > 
> > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if
> > the server
> > wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
> > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by
> > anyone with
> > proper access rights?
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Juergen,
> > >
> > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on
> > > state data."
> > >
> > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current
> > > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this
> > > flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
> > >
> > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,
> > > doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought
> > > another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in
> > > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence
> > > (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how
> > > do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If
> > > the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided
> > > topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we
> > > are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all
> > > references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the
> > > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express
> > > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > >
> > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering
> > > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies
> > > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs
> > > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it
> > > is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may
> > > not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> > > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to
> > > indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be
> > > cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that
> > > results in the model of least complexity.
> > >
> > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it
> > > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a
> > > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > > --- Alex
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares
> > > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > >
> > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > >
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman
> > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the
> > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that
> > > > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are referring
> > > > > to).
> > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning distinguishing
> > > > > configuration that has been intended, versus one that is in effect
> > > > > etc .  This concerns the issue that some topologies are populated
> > > > > by the server whereas some topologies can be populated by client
> > > > > applications.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > >
> > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",
> > > > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a (ro)
> > > > > branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > >
> > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to
> > > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config
> > > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property
> > > > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic
> > > > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > >
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with
> > > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied
> > > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we would
> > > > not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is similar is
> > > > that you can view the "applied configuration" as the
> > > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), and
> > > > the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or intended
> > > > network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has
> > > > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not
> > > > necessarily the case
> > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided by
> > > > the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >
> > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your
> > > 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and
> > > not configuration data.
> > >
> > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model (this
> > > > > is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but would
> > > > > essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), leading to
> > > > > unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every augmentation
> > > > > has to be conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,
> > > > > etc.
> > > >
> > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data
> > > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > >
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in RFC
> > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of
> > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  However,
> > > > in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases by the
> > > > server.
> > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.
> > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the
> > > > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >
> > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the
> > > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this is
> > > any different from other cases, including network interfaces as
> > > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow
> > > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > >
> > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > > Please explain.
> > > >
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > >
> > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.
> > > >
> > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one
> > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this
> > > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary
> > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of a
> > "supporting-network"
> > > > of the same network.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > >
> > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > >         description
> > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that
> > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering
> > > >            structure.";
> > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay network that the
> > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > >         }
> > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > >         }
> > > /
> > > >       }
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will
> > > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be
> > > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that
> > > > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow
> > > > for both possibilities.
> > >
> > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not depend
> > > on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > >
> > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to be
> > > > part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace
> > > > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a
> > > > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network
> > > > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate way
> > > > to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this results
> > > > in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easier way?
> > > >
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >
> > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints on
> > > config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in the
> > > datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 7.5.3
> > > and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says that a
> > > leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D is
> > > violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> > >
> > > /js
> > >
> > > --
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > >
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> 
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> 


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com> wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:41 PM
> > To: Xufeng Liu
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund; Alexander Clemm (alex);
> > andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 07:08:01PM +0000, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > > Hi Martin and Alex,
> > >
> > > Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access right
> > that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived from other objects
> > in the system.
> > >
> > 
> > This sounds remarkably like operational state...
> 
> [Xufeng] But configuration objects can be built on top of these.

What does this mean?


/martin


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From: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 4:27 PM
> To: Xufeng Liu
> Cc: alex@cisco.com; andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com;
> jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin and Alex,
> >
> > Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what access
> > right that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived
> > from other objects in the system.
>=20
> That would be config false nodes, right?
[Xufeng] Yes. Agree.
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > - Xufeng
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander
> > > Clemm
> > > (alex)
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:05 PM
> > > To: Martin Bjorklund
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de;
> > > andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > > shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app
> > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to
> > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > >
> > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able
> > > to "mess"
> > > with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to this
> > > will be restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that were
> > > populated by the "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by
> > > other apps - it is the "server- provided" app that is responsible
> > > for maintaining them.]
> > >
> > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch
> > > of caveats.
> > > --- Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> > > Bjorklund
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> > > university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > > shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > Alex,
> > >
> > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e.,
> > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal
> > > client?
> > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by
> > > anyone with proper access rights?
> > >
> > >
> > > /martin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > >
> > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to
> > > > depend on state data."
> > > >
> > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current
> > > > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have
> > > > this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintain=
ing it).
> > > >
> > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have
> > > > just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may no=
t
> even work.
> > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that
> > > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided,
> > > > hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data
> > > > only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on
> > > > top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the
> > > > server-provided topology into the network configuration (which
> > > > makes no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top
> > > > if we remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from
> > > > the model and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer
> > > > have the model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution=
, IMHO.
> > > >
> > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express
> > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where
> > > > topologies originate from different sources
> > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.  It
> > > > is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to
> > > > capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of
> > > > doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we
> > > > find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a
> > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it
> > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the
> > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it
> > > > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of
> > > > a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin
> > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;
> 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares
> > > > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > >
> > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman
> > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the
> > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue
> > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are
> > > > > > referring to).
> > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning
> > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus
> > > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some
> > > > > > topologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies
> > > > > > can be populated by client applications.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > >
> > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this
> > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies
> > > > > > and a (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to
> > > > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config
> > > > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime
> > > > > property controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of
> > > > > the generic tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > > >
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with
> > > > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied
> > > > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we
> > > > > would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is
> > > > > similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the
> > > > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case),
> > > > > and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or
> > > > > intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is
> > > > > not identical
> > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"
> > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this
> > > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided
> > > > > by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >
> > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.
> > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational
> > > > state and not configuration data.
> > > >
> > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model
> > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but
> > > > > > would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework),
> > > > > > leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model
> > > > > > (every augmentation has to be conducted in two places), more
> > > > > > complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data
> > > > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > > >
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of
> > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.
> > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other
> > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.
> > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or,
> > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >
> > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the
> > > > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this
> > > > is any different from other cases, including network interfaces as
> > > > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow
> > > > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > >
> > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rul=
es.
> > > > > Please explain.
> > > > >
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > >
> > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.
> > > > >
> > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one
> > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this
> > > > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary
> > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part
> > > > > of a
> > > "supporting-network"
> > > > > of the same network.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > >
> > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > >         description
> > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that
> > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering
> > > > >            structure.";
> > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay network that the
> > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > /
> > > > >       }
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will
> > > > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be
> > > > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network
> > > > > that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to
> > > > > allow for both possibilities.
> > > >
> > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not
> > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > >
> > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref
> > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to
> > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference
> > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured
> > > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a
> > > > > separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All
> > > > > of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you=
 see an
> easier way?
> > > > >
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >
> > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that
> > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config
> > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint
> > > > exists. See section 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning
> > > > leafref, section 9.9 says that a leafref may only point to
> > > > configuration. I believe this I-D is violating the distinction betw=
een
> configuration and state data.
> > > >
> > > > /js
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germ=
any
> > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> >


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From: Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 4:28 PM
> To: Xufeng Liu
> Cc: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> alex@cisco.com; andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Juergen
> > > Schoenwaelder
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 3:41 PM
> > > To: Xufeng Liu
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund; Alexander Clemm
> > > (alex); andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> > > shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 07:08:01PM +0000, Xufeng Liu wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin and Alex,
> > > >
> > > > Some of such objects might not be changeable, no matter what
> > > > access right
> > > that the client has. Such non-changeable objects are derived from
> > > other objects in the system.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This sounds remarkably like operational state...
> >
> > [Xufeng] But configuration objects can be built on top of these.
>=20
> What does this mean?
[Xufeng] The client may need to configure some other objects that have refe=
rences to these derived objects.
>=20
>=20
> /martin


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hello Juergen,

can you please explain what you mean by name bindings?  YANG does not provi=
de support for name bindings (at least not a la GDMO). =20

Looking at RFC 7223, I can see the distinction between interface-ref and in=
terface-state-ref.  There certainly is an analogy between interfaces and to=
pology, and the discussion section 3.1 of RFC 7223 and the discussion here.=
  Still, the interfaces model is different and follows different requiremen=
ts/patterns that don't make it directly applicable.  Layering etc are not i=
ncluded as part of the base model, but supported via a design pattern where=
 it is added as part of augmentation specific to a given interface type, an=
d being specific which type of interface to reference.  I don't see anythin=
g describing the analogy of having a (configured) set of data - e.g. a (con=
figured) topology with a (configured) set of nodes, links, etc - and allowi=
ng the items in this to refer to e.g. a (server-provided) topology. =20

In your email, you state "Translated to your domain, I can configure an ove=
rlay that refers by name to other layers. If those layers do not operationa=
lly exist, the overlay will exist in config but not in the operational stat=
e tree".  How would this work?  With "refer by name" you don't mean an actu=
al reference, you mean use "refer by name" to refer to data that is operati=
onal state.  In other words, you are punting the problem and leave it to th=
e user and implementation to deal with it.  Instead of using e.g. an actual=
 reference, you are using simply a string.  The concern is that when using =
a reference, a framework might have problems ensuring referential integrity=
 in case the referred object goes away etc - but this solution does not add=
ress the concern, it simply pushes it to somewhere else. =20

At the same time, you do now have two parallel trees, providing additional =
complexity as outlined earlier, specifically if we want to be able to expre=
ss some of the integrity constraints (supporting nodes of a node have to be=
 part of a supporting topology, etc).  Well, perhaps we no longer need to b=
e concerned about these, since we are pushing this problem to the user anyw=
ay.  However, I am not sure why we would trust users to deal with all those=
 integrity problems, but not trust them e.g. with a "server-provided" attri=
bute.  Additional complexity in the model would be fine if it resulted in a=
 gain, but I don't think this would be the case - to the contrary.  Introdu=
cing what you call a "fence" instead seems to be the preferrable solution. =
 The ability to support this could be indicated by a feature, if that helps=
.   =20

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=20
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:56 PM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj=
@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.=
com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 06:24:10PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
> I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on st=
ate data."
>=20
> Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current model i=
s essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this flag to indi=
cate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).   =20
>

I expect that config true objects can be modified by clients. And I expect =
that client maintained config true objects do not depend on server provided=
 operational state. The 'server-provided' leaf seems to 'overrule' both pri=
nciples.

> You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce operatio=
nal data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However, doing that i=
ntroduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought another argument=
 why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.  Topologies _are_ layere=
d, and we need to be able to express that in the model.  Now, if we have a =
topology that is server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represen=
ted by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "=
configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate =
the server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes no=
 sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all r=
eferences / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the proble=
m to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express vertical relati=
onships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering rela=
tionships between topologies, including cases where topologies originate fr=
om different sources (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requi=
rement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need t=
o capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of doing thi=
s within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we find a way to do t=
his.  The current solution to this - having the model as configuration data=
, and including a parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is mainta=
ining it - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "le=
ast bad") that results in the model of least complexity.

In the interfaces model, this problem got solved via name bindings. I can c=
onfigure an interface but as long as the matching interface is not present,=
 the config won't be applied to the interface. Translated to your domain, I=
 can configure an overlay that refers by name to other layers. If those lay=
ers do not operationally exist, the overlay will exist in config but not in=
 the operational state tree.

> Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the "server-provide=
d" object to address your concerns?  We can make it config (to address your=
 issue that triggered this, the presence of a r/o object in a tree that is =
otherwise r/w).

You can address my concern by doing away with 'server-provided' and by prop=
erly separating config from operational state. ;-) Assuming proper authoriz=
ation, a NC/RC client should be able to change any object in a configuratio=
n datastore. I am concerned about data model specific 'fences' that indicat=
e that some portions of a configuration datastore are behaving in special w=
ays.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Oct 19 14:57:38 2015
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
Thread-Index: AQHRCpv6tndvtjjPSkap4v4Aq5RqqJ5zI1yggAB0L4D//8MXQA==
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin,

"So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how is =
it supposed to be used?"

When a network topology is populated by the server, the server-provided lea=
f is supposed to be set to true.
When a network topology is populated by a client app (through "regular" con=
figuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be set to false. =20

For any given network topology, when the corresponding "server-provided" le=
af is set to "true", attempts to edit the configuration of that topology ar=
e to be rejected. =20

Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config true", o=
r moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that indicates for each top=
ology whether it is server-provided or not (in a separate "state" branch). =
=20
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; and=
y@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app=20
> (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to=20
> discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
>=20
> [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to=20
> "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to=20
> this will be restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that=20
> were populated by the "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by=20
> other apps - it is the "server-provided" app that is responsible for=20
> maintaining them.]
>=20
> So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of=20
> caveats.

So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how is i=
t supposed to be used?


/martin



> --- Alex
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> Bjorklund
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Alex,
>=20
> Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if=20
> the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
> (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by=20
> anyone with proper access rights?
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> >=20
> > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend=20
> > on state data."
> >=20
> > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current=20
> > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have=20
> > this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining =
it).
> >=20
> > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce=20
> > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server. =20
> > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have=20
> > just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not ev=
en work.
> > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in=20
> > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided,=20
> > hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data=20
> > only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on=20
> > top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the=20
> > server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes=20
> > no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we=20
> > remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from the model=20
> > and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the=20
> > model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> >=20
> > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering=20
> > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies=20
> > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs=20
> > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model,=20
> > it is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There=20
> > may not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet=20
> > it is important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution=20
> > to this
> > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter=20
> > to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to=20
> > be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that=20
> > results in the model of least complexity.
> >=20
> > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it=20
> > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a=20
> > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> >=20
> > Thoughts?
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares=20
> > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > wrote:
> > > Hello Juergen,
> > >=20
> > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > >=20
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > >=20
> > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that=20
> > > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are=20
> > > > referring to).
> > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus one=20
> > > > that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some=20
> > > > topologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies=20
> > > > can be populated by client applications.
> > >=20
> > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > >=20
> > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up",=20
> > > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a=20
> > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > >=20
> > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to=20
> > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config=20
> > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property=20
> > > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic=20
> > > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > >=20
> > > <ALEX>
> > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with=20
> > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied=20
> > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we=20
> > > would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is=20
> > > similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the=20
> > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case),=20
> > > and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or=20
> > > intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is=20
> > > not identical
> > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has=20
> > > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not=20
> > > necessarily the case
> > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided=20
> > > by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > </ALEX>
> >=20
> > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your=20
> > 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and=20
> > not configuration data.
> > =20
> > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model=20
> > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but=20
> > > > would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework),=20
> > > > leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every=20
> > > > augmentation has to be conducted in two places), more complex=20
> > > > validation rules, etc.
> > >=20
> > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data=20
> > > distinction. Please explain.
> > >=20
> > > <ALEX>
> > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in=20
> > > RFC
> > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of=20
> > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases=20
> > > by the server.
> > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true. =20
> > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the=20
> > > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > </ALEX>
> >=20
> > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the=20
> > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this=20
> > is any different from other cases, including network interfaces as=20
> > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow=20
> > configuration data to depend on state data.
> >=20
> > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > Please explain.
> > >=20
> > > <ALEX>
> > >=20
> > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > >=20
> > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one=20
> > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this=20
> > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary=20
> > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of=20
> > > a "supporting-network"
> > > of the same network.
> > >=20
> > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > >=20
> > >    list supporting-node {
> > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > >         description
> > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=20
> > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=20
> > >            structure.";
> > >         leaf network-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > >         }
> > >         leaf node-ref {
> > >           type leafref {
> > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > >           }
> > >           description
> > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > >         }
> > /
> > >       }
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will=20
> > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be=20
> > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that=20
> > > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow=20
> > > for both possibilities.
> >=20
> > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=20
> > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> >=20
> > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to=20
> > > be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace=20
> > > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a=20
> > > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network=20
> > > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate=20
> > > way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this=20
> > > results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an easi=
er way?
> > >=20
> > > </ALEX>
> >=20
> > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints=20
> > on config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in=20
> > the datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section=20
> > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says=20
> > that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D=20
> > is violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> >=20
> > /js
> >=20
> > --=20
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20


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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:28:04 -0700
From: Nitin Bahadur <nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
To: <i2rs@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D24B0F89.304C4%nitin_bahadur@yahoo.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08.txt
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I-D Action: draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08.txt
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This change addresses all the (currently) raised issues on the mailing
list as part of the LC. More specifically:

- Simplifies the nexthop grammar, making programming of simple nexthops
more straight-forward
- Added more clarifying text around chain nexthops

Thanks
Nitin


On 10/19/15, 11:36 AM, "internet-drafts@ietf.org"
<internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Interface to the Routing System Working
>Group of the IETF.
>
>        Title           : Routing Information Base Info Model
>        Authors         : Nitin Bahadur
>                          Sriganesh Kini
>                          Jan Medved
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08.txt
>	Pages           : 25
>	Date            : 2015-10-19
>
>Abstract:
>   Routing and routing functions in enterprise and carrier networks are
>   typically performed by network devices (routers and switches) using a
>   routing information base (RIB).  Protocols and configuration push
>   data into the RIB and the RIB manager installs state into the
>   hardware; for packet forwarding.  This draft specifies an information
>   model for the RIB to enable defining a standardized data model.  Such
>   a data model can be used to define an interface to the RIB from an
>   entity that may even be external to the network device.  This
>   interface can be used to support new use-cases being defined by the
>   IETF I2RS WG.
>
>
>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model/
>
>There's also a htmlized version available at:
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08
>
>A diff from the previous version is available at:
>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model-08
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>submission
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hello Juergen,
> 
> can you please explain what you mean by name bindings?  YANG does not
> provide support for name bindings (at least not a la GDMO).
> 
> Looking at RFC 7223, I can see the distinction between interface-ref
> and interface-state-ref.  There certainly is an analogy between
> interfaces and topology, and the discussion section 3.1 of RFC 7223
> and the discussion here.  Still, the interfaces model is different and
> follows different requirements/patterns that don't make it directly
> applicable.  Layering etc are not included as part of the base model,
> but supported via a design pattern where it is added as part of
> augmentation specific to a given interface type, and being specific
> which type of interface to reference.  I don't see anything describing
> the analogy of having a (configured) set of data - e.g. a (configured)
> topology with a (configured) set of nodes, links, etc - and allowing
> the items in this to refer to e.g. a (server-provided) topology.
> 
> In your email, you state "Translated to your domain, I can configure
> an overlay that refers by name to other layers. If those layers do not
> operationally exist, the overlay will exist in config but not in the
> operational state tree".  How would this work?  With "refer by name"
> you don't mean an actual reference, you mean use "refer by name" to
> refer to data that is operational state.  In other words, you are
> punting the problem and leave it to the user and implementation to
> deal with it.  Instead of using e.g. an actual reference, you are
> using simply a string.  The concern is that when using a reference, a
> framework might have problems ensuring referential integrity in case
> the referred object goes away etc - but this solution does not address
> the concern, it simply pushes it to somewhere else.


What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference
to a server-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its
network?  I see no special text in your document about this case.


/martin



> At the same time, you do now have two parallel trees, providing
> additional complexity as outlined earlier, specifically if we want to
> be able to express some of the integrity constraints (supporting nodes
> of a node have to be part of a supporting topology, etc).  Well,
> perhaps we no longer need to be concerned about these, since we are
> pushing this problem to the user anyway.  However, I am not sure why
> we would trust users to deal with all those integrity problems, but
> not trust them e.g. with a "server-provided" attribute.  Additional
> complexity in the model would be fine if it resulted in a gain, but I
> don't think this would be the case - to the contrary.  Introducing
> what you call a "fence" instead seems to be the preferrable solution.
> The ability to support this could be indicated by a feature, if that
> helps.
> 
> --- Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:56 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares
> <shares@ndzh.com>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 06:24:10PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> > 
> > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on
> > state data."
> > 
> > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current
> > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this
> > flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).
> >
> 
> I expect that config true objects can be modified by clients. And I
> expect that client maintained config true objects do not depend on
> server provided operational state. The 'server-provided' leaf seems to
> 'overrule' both principles.
> 
> > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However,
> > doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought
> > another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.
> > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in
> > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence
> > (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how
> > do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If
> > the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided
> > topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we
> > are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all
> > references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the
> > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express
> > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering
> > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies
> > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs
> > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it
> > is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may
> > not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to
> > indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be
> > cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that
> > results in the model of least complexity.
> 
> In the interfaces model, this problem got solved via name bindings. I
> can configure an interface but as long as the matching interface is
> not present, the config won't be applied to the interface. Translated
> to your domain, I can configure an overlay that refers by name to
> other layers. If those layers do not operationally exist, the overlay
> will exist in config but not in the operational state tree.
> 
> > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it
> > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a
> > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> 
> You can address my concern by doing away with 'server-provided' and by
> properly separating config from operational state. ;-) Assuming proper
> authorization, a NC/RC client should be able to change any object in a
> configuration datastore. I am concerned about data model specific
> 'fences' that indicate that some portions of a configuration datastore
> are behaving in special ways.
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and
> how is it supposed to be used?"
> 
> When a network topology is populated by the server, the
> server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.

But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something
it would behave as a normal client.

> When a network topology is populated by a client app (through
> "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be
> set to false.
> 
> For any given network topology, when the corresponding
> "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the
> configuration of that topology are to be rejected.

This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the
server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access
rights"


/martin


> 
> Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config
> true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that indicates
> for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in a separate
> "state" branch).
> --- Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> > 
> > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app 
> > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to 
> > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > 
> > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able to
> > "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly access to
> > this will be restricted / controlled.  The topology instances that 
> > were populated by the "server-provided app" should not be "touched" by
> > other apps - it is the "server-provided" app that is responsible for 
> > maintaining them.]
> > 
> > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch of 
> > caveats.
> 
> So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how
> is it supposed to be used?
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> 
> > --- Alex
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin 
> > Bjorklund
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; 
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; 
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > Alex,
> > 
> > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., if 
> > the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client?
> > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by 
> > anyone with proper access rights?
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Juergen,
> > > 
> > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend 
> > > on state data."
> > > 
> > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current 
> > > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have 
> > > this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining
> > > it).
> > > 
> > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce 
> > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  
> > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have 
> > > just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not
> > > even work.
> > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in 
> > > the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, 
> > > hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data 
> > > only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on 
> > > top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the 
> > > server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes 
> > > no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we 
> > > remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from the model 
> > > and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the 
> > > model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > 
> > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering 
> > > relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies 
> > > originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs 
> > > configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, 
> > > it is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There 
> > > may not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet 
> > > it is important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution 
> > > to this
> > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter 
> > > to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to 
> > > be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that 
> > > results in the model of least complexity.
> > > 
> > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the 
> > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it 
> > > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a 
> > > r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > 
> > > Thoughts?
> > > --- Alex
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund 
> > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares 
> > > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > 
> > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > 
> > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > 
> > > > --- Alex
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman 
> > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund 
> > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > 
> > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the 
> > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue that 
> > > > > was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are 
> > > > > referring to).
> > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning 
> > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus one 
> > > > > that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some 
> > > > > topologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies 
> > > > > can be populated by client applications.
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > 
> > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this up", 
> > > > > having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies and a 
> > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > 
> > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to 
> > > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config 
> > > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime property 
> > > > controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of the generic 
> > > > tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > > 
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with 
> > > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied 
> > > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we 
> > > > would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is 
> > > > similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the 
> > > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), 
> > > > and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or 
> > > > intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is 
> > > > not identical
> > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" has 
> > > > an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this is not 
> > > > necessarily the case
> > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided 
> > > > by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > > 
> > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. Your 
> > > 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational state and 
> > > not configuration data.
> > >  
> > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of 
> > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model 
> > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but 
> > > > > would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), 
> > > > > leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model (every 
> > > > > augmentation has to be conducted in two places), more complex 
> > > > > validation rules, etc.
> > > > 
> > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data 
> > > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > > 
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in 
> > > > RFC
> > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of 
> > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  
> > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other cases 
> > > > by the server.
> > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.  
> > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, the 
> > > > categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > > 
> > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the 
> > > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this 
> > > is any different from other cases, including network interfaces as 
> > > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow 
> > > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > 
> > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > > Please explain.
> > > > 
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > 
> > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.  
> > > > 
> > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one 
> > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this 
> > > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary 
> > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part of 
> > > > a "supporting-network"
> > > > of the same network.
> > > > 
> > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > 
> > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > >         description
> > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that 
> > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering 
> > > >            structure.";
> > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay network that the 
> > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > >         }
> > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > >         }
> > > /
> > > >       }
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will 
> > > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be 
> > > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network that 
> > > > has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to allow 
> > > > for both possibilities.
> > > 
> > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not 
> > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > 
> > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref to 
> > > > be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to replace 
> > > > network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference either a 
> > > > server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured network 
> > > > ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a separate 
> > > > way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All of this 
> > > > results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do you see an
> > > > easier way?
> > > > 
> > > > </ALEX>
> > > 
> > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that constraints 
> > > on config true nodes can only refer to other config true nodes in 
> > > the datastore where the node with the constraint exists. See section 
> > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says 
> > > that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D 
> > > is violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> > > 
> > > /js
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > 
> 


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I2RS Interim  

Date: 10/21/2015  

Time: 10:00am - 12:00pm ET 

 

I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:00-10:05]

 

I2RS WG LC on Data Modules [10:05-10:20]

- Topology Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 minutes]  

 - RIB Feedback/Changes [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] 

 - Discussion: 10 minutes 

 

I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:20-10:25] 

  [Sue Hares ]

 

I2RS WG LC Requirements [10:25-10:30] 

  - Feedback Summary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] 

  

I2RS WG Protocol: Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00] 

 - Protocol Overview [10:30 - 10:45]

    Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman 

      

 - Protocol Examples [10:45- 11:00]

   1) I2RS Protocol Independent 

   (RIB, Topology, FB-RIB)

   2) BGP, OSPF 

 

 Discussion  [11:00 - 12:00pm ]

 Web-ex information: 

 

Join WebEx meeting 

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m7d2c19ef23b22f80144e739ffa59df69

 

Meeting number:   644 704 791 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>I2RS =
Interim&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Date: =
10/21/2015&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Time: =
10:00am - 12:00pm ET <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>I2RS =
Hackathon Plans [10:00-10:05]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>I2RS WG LC =
on Data Modules [10:05-10:20]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'> - Topology Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 =
minutes]&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>&nbsp;- RIB =
Feedback/Changes [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;- Discussion: 10 minutes <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>I2RS =
Hackathon Plans [10:20-10:25] <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;[Sue Hares ]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>I2RS WG LC =
Requirements [10:25-10:30] <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;- Feedback Summary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>I2RS WG Protocol: Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00] =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>&nbsp;- =
Protocol Overview [10:30 - 10:45]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;- Protocol Examples [10:45- =
11:00]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) I2RS Protocol Independent =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(RIB, Topology, =
FB-RIB)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) BGP, OSPF <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp; [11:00 - 12:00pm =
]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>&nbsp;Web-ex information: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Join WebEx =
meeting <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22f801=
44e739ffa59df69<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Meeting =
number: &nbsp; 644 704 791 <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>Meeting password: proto.fun.all<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Join by =
phone<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number =
(US/Canada)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New","serif"'>1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number =
(US/Canada)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New","serif"'>Access =
code: 644 704 791<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From nobody Wed Oct 21 06:27:08 2015
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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:26:49 -0600
From: Rob Shakir <rjs@rob.sh>
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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References: <7E24547E-B42B-46E2-AF76-F7639D61963F@nic.cz> <D23D3103.34500%acee@cisco.com> <D2429721.34A0E%acee@cisco.com> <DBF22257-A7A2-4679-927A-EBCC1022FE13@nic.cz> <D242C30E.34C2A%acee@cisco.com> <m27fmowezi.fsf@birdie.labs.nic.cz> <D2458D0F.36813%acee@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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On 15 October 2015 at 15:13:38, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) wrote:

Do we really see associating the same interface with different 
routing-instances for IPv4 and IPv6? I can seem to remember the use case 
and it does add complexity forever. 


At least two of the operators for whom I have worked utilise this functionality (providing separate L3VPNs for IPv6 and IPv4) - so in my experience, it is not possible to make this simplification.

r.


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<html><head><style>body=7Bfont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=7D</=
style></head><body style=3D=22word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=22><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcust=
omfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>On 15 October 2015 at =
15:13:38, Acee Lindem (acee) (<a href=3D=22mailto:acee=40cisco.com=22>ace=
e=40cisco.com</a>) wrote:</div> <blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22=
clean=5Fbq=22><span><div><div></div><div><br>Do we really see associating=
 the same interface with different
<br>routing-instances for IPv4 and IPv6=3F I can seem to remember the use=
 case
<br>and it does add complexity forever.
<br><br></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>At least two of th=
e operators for whom I have worked utilise this functionality (providing =
separate L3VPNs for IPv6 and IPv4) - so in my experience, it is not possi=
ble to make this simplification.<div><br></div><div>r.</div><div><div><br=
></div></div></body></html>
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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> On 21 Oct 2015, at 15:26, Rob Shakir <rjs@rob.sh> wrote:
>=20
> On 15 October 2015 at 15:13:38, Acee Lindem (acee) (acee@cisco.com) =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Do we really see associating the same interface with different=20
>> routing-instances for IPv4 and IPv6? I can seem to remember the use =
case=20
>> and it does add complexity forever.=20
>>=20
>=20
> At least two of the operators for whom I have worked utilise this =
functionality (providing separate L3VPNs for IPv6 and IPv4) - so in my =
experience, it is not possible to make this simplification.

One option would be to create two virtual interfaces - one for IPv4 VPN =
and another for IPv6 VPN, and define routing-instance and addresses =
separately for each.

Lada

>=20
> r.

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C





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Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 07:58:46 -0600
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Cc: Routing YANG <rtg-yang-coord@ietf.org>, "=?utf-8?Q?i2rs=40ietf.org?=" <i2rs@ietf.org>, "Acee Lindem \(acee\)" <acee@cisco.com>, NETMOD WG <netmod@ietf.org>, Routing WG <rtgwg@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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On 21 October 2015 at 07:52:43, Ladislav Lhotka (lhotka=40nic.cz) wrote:
One option would be to create two virtual interfaces - one for IPv4 VPN a=
nd another for IPv6 VPN, and define routing-instance and addresses separa=
tely for each.=C2=A0
This is only workable if an implementation must support two virtual inter=
faces that have the same underlying encapsulation (i.e.., they are simply=
 logically separating IPv4 and IPv6), in some implementations, this isn=E2=
=80=99t the case, and the virtual interfaces must have different encapsul=
ations.=C2=A0

In openconfig-interfaces, each sub-interface is associated with a single =
VLAN, so in this case, we would need the network-instance to be specified=
 on a per address-family basis there. There is nothing to stop one having=
 a single leaf at the sub-interface or interface level that is inherited =
by the other constructs - this is something that I have been considering =
based on work on the network-instance model that we recently published.

r.
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<html><head><style>body=7Bfont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=7D</=
style></head><body style=3D=22word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;=22><div id=3D=22bloop=5Fcust=
omfont=22 style=3D=22font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px; color: r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0); margin: 0px; line-height: auto;=22>On 21 October 2015 at =
07:52:43, Ladislav Lhotka (<a href=3D=22mailto:lhotka=40nic.cz=22>lhotka=40=
nic.cz</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 class=3D=22cl=
ean=5Fbq=22 style=3D=22font-family: Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13px; fo=
nt-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spaci=
ng: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word=
-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;=22><span><div><div></div><=
div>One option would be to create two virtual interfaces - one for IPv4 V=
PN and another for IPv6 VPN, and define routing-instance and addresses se=
parately for each.<span class=3D=22Apple-converted-space=22>&nbsp;</span>=
</div></div></span></blockquote></div><p>This is only workable if an impl=
ementation must support two virtual interfaces that have the same underly=
ing encapsulation (i.e.., they are simply logically separating IPv4 and I=
Pv6), in some implementations, this isn=E2=80=99t the case, and the virtu=
al interfaces must have different encapsulations.&nbsp;</p><p>In openconf=
ig-interfaces, each sub-interface is associated with a single VLAN, so in=
 this case, we would need the network-instance to be specified on a per a=
ddress-family basis there. There is nothing to stop one having a single l=
eaf at the sub-interface or interface level that is inherited by the othe=
r constructs - this is something that I have been considering based on wo=
rk on the network-instance model that we recently published.</p><p>r.</p>=
</body></html>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Rob Shakir <rjs@rob.sh>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] rib-data-model and routing-cfg
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin,

Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch. =20

The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and underlay=
 will be broken.  The fact that those links will be invalidated is somethin=
g that ultimately needs to be indicated. =20

Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually faced =
by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What is the sol=
ution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left up to the appli=
cation, correct?)

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:04 PM

.....


What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference to a s=
erver-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its network?  I see=
 no special text in your document about this case.


=20


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Hi Martin,

We can nitpick over how to best express this, but hopefully the general sen=
se of what the requirement is and what I was trying to express is clear.  Y=
ou can have an outside client application maintain some topologies / list e=
lements, and have others maintained an populated by the server - or arguabl=
y an app embedded in the server.  The difference from the "normal" client i=
s that really it is that we want the server / embedded app that is the auth=
oritative owner of the information. =20

Cheers
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; and=
y@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=20
> how is it supposed to be used?"
>=20
> When a network topology is populated by the server, the=20
> server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.

But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something it wou=
ld behave as a normal client.

> When a network topology is populated by a client app (through=20
> "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be=20
> set to false.
>=20
> For any given network topology, when the corresponding=20
> "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the=20
> configuration of that topology are to be rejected.

This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the server-provi=
ded data can be modified by anyone with proper access rights"


/martin


>=20
> Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config=20
> true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that indicates=20
> for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in a separate=20
> "state" branch).
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >=20
> > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app=20
> > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to=20
> > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> >=20
> > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able=20
> > to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly=20
> > access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The topology=20
> > instances that were populated by the "server-provided app" should=20
> > not be "touched" by other apps - it is the "server-provided" app=20
> > that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> >=20
> > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch=20
> > of caveats.
>=20
> So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how=20
> is it supposed to be used?
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> > Bjorklund
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > Alex,
> >=20
> > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e.,=20
> > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal client=
?
> > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by=20
> > anyone with proper access rights?
> >=20
> >=20
> > /martin
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Juergen,
> > >=20
> > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to=20
> > > depend on state data."
> > >=20
> > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current=20
> > > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have=20
> > > this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence=20
> > > maintaining it).
> > >=20
> > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce=20
> > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have=20
> > > just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may=20
> > > not even work.
> > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that=20
> > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided,=20
> > > hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data=20
> > > only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on=20
> > > top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the=20
> > > server-provided topology into the network configuration (which=20
> > > makes no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top=20
> > > if we remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from=20
> > > the model and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer=20
> > > have the model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, =
IMHO.
> > >=20
> > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express=20
> > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where=20
> > > topologies originate from different sources=20
> > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.  It=20
> > > is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to=20
> > > capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of=20
> > > doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we=20
> > > find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a=20
> > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it=20
> > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the=20
> > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > >=20
> > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it=20
> > > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of=20
> > > a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > >=20
> > > Thoughts?
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin=20
> > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia =
Atlas'
> > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares=20
> > > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > >=20
> > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > >=20
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >=20
> > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >=20
> > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue=20
> > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are=20
> > > > > referring to).
> > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus=20
> > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some=20
> > > > > topologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies=20
> > > > > can be populated by client applications.
> > > >=20
> > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > >=20
> > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this=20
> > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies=20
> > > > > and a
> > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > >=20
> > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to=20
> > > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config=20
> > > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime=20
> > > > property controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of=20
> > > > the generic tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > >=20
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with=20
> > > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied=20
> > > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we=20
> > > > would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is=20
> > > > similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the=20
> > > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case),=20
> > > > and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or=20
> > > > intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is=20
> > > > not identical
> > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"=20
> > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this=20
> > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided=20
> > > > by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >=20
> > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.=20
> > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational=20
> > > state and not configuration data.
> > > =20
> > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model=20
> > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but=20
> > > > > would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework),=20
> > > > > leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model=20
> > > > > (every augmentation has to be conducted in two places), more=20
> > > > > complex validation rules, etc.
> > > >=20
> > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data=20
> > > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > >=20
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in=20
> > > > RFC
> > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of=20
> > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other=20
> > > > cases by the server.
> > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true. =
=20
> > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or,=20
> > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >=20
> > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the=20
> > > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this=20
> > > is any different from other cases, including network interfaces as=20
> > > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow=20
> > > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > >=20
> > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules=
.
> > > > Please explain.
> > > >=20
> > > > <ALEX>
> > > >=20
> > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > > >=20
> > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one=20
> > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this=20
> > > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary=20
> > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part=20
> > > > of a "supporting-network"
> > > > of the same network.
> > > >=20
> > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > >=20
> > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > >         description
> > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=20
> > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=20
> > > >            structure.";
> > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > >         }
> > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > >           type leafref {
> > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > >           }
> > > >           description
> > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > >         }
> > > /
> > > >       }
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will=20
> > > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be=20
> > > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network=20
> > > > that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to=20
> > > > allow for both possibilities.
> > >=20
> > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=20
> > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > >=20
> > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref=20
> > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to=20
> > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference=20
> > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured=20
> > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a=20
> > > > separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All=20
> > > > of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do=20
> > > > you see an easier way?
> > > >=20
> > > > </ALEX>
> > >=20
> > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that=20
> > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config=20
> > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint=20
> > > exists. See section
> > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says=20
> > > that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D=20
> > > is violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> > >=20
> > > /js
> > >=20
> > > --=20
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German=
y
> > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > i2rs mailing list
> > i2rs@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> >=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> We can nitpick over how to best express this

This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.

And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config
and operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to
express in YANG, so you change the semantics of the formal statements
with descriptions.  I don't think this a good idea.

I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't
violate YANG:

1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
    and explain in text that there might be a client
    "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
    (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
    valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
    (module access rights)).

2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
    References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
    use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";


/martin

> , but hopefully the
> general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to
> express is clear.  You can have an outside client application maintain
> some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained an
> populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server.
> The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we
> want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of the
> information.
> 
> Cheers
> --- Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com] 
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> > 
> > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and 
> > how is it supposed to be used?"
> > 
> > When a network topology is populated by the server, the 
> > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> 
> But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something
> it would behave as a normal client.
> 
> > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through 
> > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be 
> > set to false.
> > 
> > For any given network topology, when the corresponding 
> > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the 
> > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> 
> This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the
> server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access
> rights"
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> > 
> > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config 
> > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that indicates
> > for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in a separate 
> > "state" branch).
> > --- Alex
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com; 
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > 
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > 
> > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app 
> > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to 
> > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > 
> > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being able 
> > > to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally clearly 
> > > access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The topology 
> > > instances that were populated by the "server-provided app" should 
> > > not be "touched" by other apps - it is the "server-provided" app 
> > > that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > 
> > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch 
> > > of caveats.
> > 
> > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and how
> > is it supposed to be used?
> > 
> > 
> > /martin
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > --- Alex
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin 
> > > Bjorklund
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; 
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; 
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > 
> > > Alex,
> > > 
> > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e., 
> > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal
> > > client?
> > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by 
> > > anyone with proper access rights?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > /martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > 
> > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to 
> > > > depend on state data."
> > > > 
> > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current 
> > > > model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have 
> > > > this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence 
> > > > maintaining it).
> > > > 
> > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce 
> > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have 
> > > > just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may 
> > > > not even work.
> > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that 
> > > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, 
> > > > hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data 
> > > > only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on 
> > > > top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the 
> > > > server-provided topology into the network configuration (which 
> > > > makes no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top 
> > > > if we remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from 
> > > > the model and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer 
> > > > have the model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution,
> > > > IMHO.
> > > > 
> > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express 
> > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where 
> > > > topologies originate from different sources 
> > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.  It 
> > > > is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to 
> > > > capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of 
> > > > doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we 
> > > > find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a 
> > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it 
> > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the 
> > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > 
> > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the 
> > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it 
> > > > config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of 
> > > > a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > 
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > --- Alex
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin 
> > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; 'Alia
> > > > Atlas'
> > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares 
> > > > <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > 
> > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > 
> > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > 
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman 
> > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund 
> > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the 
> > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue 
> > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you are 
> > > > > > referring to).
> > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning 
> > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus 
> > > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that some 
> > > > > > topologies are populated by the server whereas some topologies 
> > > > > > can be populated by client applications.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > 
> > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this 
> > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies 
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back to 
> > > > > what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate config 
> > > > > from state. This module makes this distinction a runtime 
> > > > > property controlled by a data model specific mechanism. None of 
> > > > > the generic tools out there will be able to understand this.
> > > > > 
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion with 
> > > > > regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and "applied 
> > > > > configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for this, we 
> > > > > would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe this is 
> > > > > similar is that you can view the "applied configuration" as the 
> > > > > "server-provided configuration" (network topology, in our case), 
> > > > > and the "intended configuration" as the, well, configured or 
> > > > > intended network topology in our case.  That said, the issue is 
> > > > > not identical
> > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration" 
> > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this 
> > > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were provided 
> > > > > by the server / the network itself, not configured by anybody.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > 
> > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config. 
> > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational 
> > > > state and not configuration data.
> > > >  
> > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of 
> > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model 
> > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction, but 
> > > > > > would essentially reflect a limitation of the framework), 
> > > > > > leading to unnecessary additional complexity in the model 
> > > > > > (every augmentation has to be conducted in two places), more 
> > > > > > complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper data 
> > > > > distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > 
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have in 
> > > > > RFC
> > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of 
> > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.  
> > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other 
> > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.  
> > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or, 
> > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > 
> > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by the 
> > > > server and partially populated from config. I fail to see how this 
> > > > is any different from other cases, including network interfaces as 
> > > > defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does not allow 
> > > > configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > 
> > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rules.
> > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > 
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > 
> > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one 
> > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For this 
> > > > > purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) network.
> > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary 
> > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part 
> > > > > of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > 
> > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > >         description
> > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that 
> > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering 
> > > > >            structure.";
> > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay network that the 
> > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > /
> > > > >       }
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we will 
> > > > > have to account for the fact that the supporting node could be 
> > > > > either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a network 
> > > > > that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to be able to 
> > > > > allow for both possibilities.
> > > > 
> > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not 
> > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > 
> > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref 
> > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to 
> > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference 
> > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured 
> > > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce a 
> > > > > separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.  All 
> > > > > of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or do 
> > > > > you see an easier way?
> > > > > 
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > 
> > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that 
> > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config 
> > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint 
> > > > exists. See section
> > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9 says 
> > > > that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe this I-D 
> > > > is violating the distinction between configuration and state data.
> > > > 
> > > > /js
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > 
> > 
> 


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch.  
> 
> The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and
> underlay will be broken.  The fact that those links will be
> invalidated is something that ultimately needs to be indicated.

But then they cannot be normal leafrefs.  You can use the new YANG 1.1
statement "require-instance false" to handle this.

> Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually
> faced by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What
> is the solution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left
> up to the application, correct?)

There is no generic model for this in RFC 7223, but there are three
options:  (i) use YANG 1.1 require-instance false (ii) require the
underlying interface to be configured (even if it is
system-controlled) or (iii) use an implicit reference.



/martin


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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In relationship to that the discussion about can or can't the model mix
operational state there are a couple of sentences in
"draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology-00.txt" thats seems crucial to this and I
guess should be reworked.

"
 There are several reasons to choose YANG to define the data model. Data
defined using YANG can be exposed by a server to client applications and
controllers via Netconf [RFC6241] or via a ReST Interface
[I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-restconf] [I-D.draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json]. The
fact that it can be used with different protocols and interfaces provides
for a degree of "future- proofing" of model implementations. Also, YANG can
serve as the basis for model-driven toolchains, such as used in the Open
Daylight project.

"

I would suggest to explain a bit what is a model-driven tool chain instead
of citing a tool that is based on a such.
Or just put a reference to draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo where the
topic is explained much better.
In that one could also be added the suggestions of Martin on different
approaches on handling dynamic operational state with static config state.

This in particular was always an issue for me as a network service
fulfillment guy. It is a big debate in network services provisioning
should I consider the configuration as a guideline or the current state and
how to match those well especially in heterogeneous networks.

I always boils down to matching config with a bunch of state data coming
from SNMP which is typically a horrible stuff. Hope i2rs to solve me that
kind of an issues :)
Also in that direction in OSS people typically use SID for modeling
networks, resources (logical or physical) and the services provided by
them.
Did anybody considered any kind of a mapping between the yang models and
the SID kind of models?

Nikolay


On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch.
> >
> > The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and
> > underlay will be broken.  The fact that those links will be
> > invalidated is something that ultimately needs to be indicated.
>
> But then they cannot be normal leafrefs.  You can use the new YANG 1.1
> statement "require-instance false" to handle this.
>
> > Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually
> > faced by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What
> > is the solution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left
> > up to the application, correct?)
>
> There is no generic model for this in RFC 7223, but there are three
> options:  (i) use YANG 1.1 require-instance false (ii) require the
> underlying interface to be configured (even if it is
> system-controlled) or (iii) use an implicit reference.
>
>
>
> /martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>



-- 
BR,

Nikolay Milovanov
Network Engineer
Email: n.milovanov@gmail.com

--94eb2c07efe615bb310522c11b3c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>In relationship to that the discussion about can=
 or can&#39;t the model mix operational state there are a couple of sentenc=
es in &quot;draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology-00.txt&quot; thats seems cruci=
al to this and I guess should be reworked.<br><br>&quot;<br>=C2=A0There are=
 several reasons to choose YANG to define the data model. Data defined usin=
g YANG can be exposed by a server to client applications and controllers vi=
a Netconf [RFC6241] or via a ReST Interface [I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-restcon=
f] [I-D.draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json]. The fact that it can be used with dif=
ferent protocols and interfaces provides for a degree of &quot;future- proo=
fing&quot; of model implementations. Also, YANG can serve as the basis for =
model-driven toolchains, such as used in the Open Daylight project.<br><br>=
&quot;<br><br>I would suggest to explain a bit what is a model-driven tool =
chain instead of citing a tool that is based on a such. <br>Or just put a r=
eference to draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo where the topic is explained =
much better. <br>In that one could also be added the suggestions of Martin =
on different approaches on handling dynamic operational state with static c=
onfig state. <br><br>This in particular was always an issue for me as a net=
work service fulfillment guy. It is a big debate in network services provis=
ioning=C2=A0 should I consider the configuration as a guideline or the curr=
ent state and how to match those well especially in heterogeneous networks.=
 <br><br>I always boils down to matching config with a bunch of state data =
coming from SNMP which is typically a horrible stuff. Hope i2rs to solve me=
 that kind of an issues :) <br></div>Also in that direction in OSS people t=
ypically use SID for modeling networks, resources (logical or physical) and=
 the services provided by them. <br>Did anybody considered any kind of a ma=
pping between the yang models and the SID kind of models? <br></div><div><d=
iv><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Nikolay =
<br></span></pre><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Martin Bjorklund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" target=3D"_blank">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">&quot;Alexan=
der Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><span class=3D"">&gt; Hi Martin,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Agree, we need to add text for this.=C2=A0 Good catch.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and<br>
&gt; underlay will be broken.=C2=A0 The fact that those links will be<br>
&gt; invalidated is something that ultimately needs to be indicated.<br>
<br>
</span>But then they cannot be normal leafrefs.=C2=A0 You can use the new Y=
ANG 1.1<br>
statement &quot;require-instance false&quot; to handle this.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually<b=
r>
&gt; faced by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.=C2=A0=
 What<br>
&gt; is the solution that is applied there?=C2=A0 (I guess it is basically =
left<br>
&gt; up to the application, correct?)<br>
<br>
</span>There is no generic model for this in RFC 7223, but there are three<=
br>
options:=C2=A0 (i) use YANG 1.1 require-instance false (ii) require the<br>
underlying interface to be configured (even if it is<br>
system-controlled) or (iii) use an implicit reference.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
/martin<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature">BR, <br><br>Nikolay Milovanov <br>Network Engineer<br>=
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:n.milovanov@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">n.milovan=
ov@gmail.com</a><br></div>
</div></div></div></div>

--94eb2c07efe615bb310522c11b3c--


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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:00:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin,

It is possible that a user configures a link of a customized (user defined)=
 topology providing also the path defined in underlay server defined topolo=
gy. Said underlay path needs to be considered as intended configuration. Ac=
tual underlay path will be state data in this case ( personally I also do n=
ot see a difference between state and server provided data), which may or m=
ay not match the intended underlay path. The actual underlay path may also =
change over time due, for example, network failure restoration procedures a=
ffecting the underlay topology.
The link of the user defined topology is not invalidated in this case. User=
 just has to deal with the fact that the intended configuration may not nec=
essarily match the actual configuration and state data.

Cheers,
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (ale=
x)
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:12 PM
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; and=
y@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi Martin,

Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch. =20

The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and underlay=
 will be broken.  The fact that those links will be invalidated is somethin=
g that ultimately needs to be indicated. =20

Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually faced =
by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What is the sol=
ution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left up to the appli=
cation, correct?)

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:04 PM

.....


What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference to a s=
erver-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its network?  I see=
 no special text in your document about this case.


=20

_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Martin,

maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least impact on =
the existing design and implementation, hence preferable. =20

However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG fra=
mework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not really fo=
reseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has instan=
ces that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others repr=
esenting more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that not really ad=
dress by making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any other c=
lient can modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could provide a so=
lution, but not in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we would ne=
ed to differentiate access rights at the instance level, not at the module =
definition level.  Rather than seeing how we can make our requirements some=
how fit a rigid interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not allow f=
or special treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see whet=
her the YANG framework can be flexible enough to still support what we are =
trying to do. =20

Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the interim, =
asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think this is =
something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a metadata item =
that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated by =
a server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when modif=
ied, will presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or, that might simp=
ly be locked by the server. =20

Thoughts regarding that suggestion?

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; and=
y@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

"Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> We can nitpick over how to best express this

This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.

And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config and op=
erational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in YANG,=
 so you change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions.  I=
 don't think this a good idea.

I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violate YA=
NG:

1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
    and explain in text that there might be a client
    "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
    (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
    valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
    (module access rights)).

2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
    References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
    use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";


/martin

> , but hopefully the
> general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to=20
> express is clear.  You can have an outside client application maintain=20
> some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained an=20
> populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server.
> The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we=20
> want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of the=20
> information.
>=20
> Cheers
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >=20
> > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=20
> > how is it supposed to be used?"
> >=20
> > When a network topology is populated by the server, the=20
> > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
>=20
> But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something=20
> it would behave as a normal client.
>=20
> > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through=20
> > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be=20
> > set to false.
> >=20
> > For any given network topology, when the corresponding=20
> > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the=20
> > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
>=20
> This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the=20
> server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access=20
> rights"
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
>=20
> >=20
> > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config=20
> > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that=20
> > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in=20
> > a separate "state" branch).
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >=20
> > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app=20
> > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to=20
> > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > >=20
> > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being=20
> > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally=20
> > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The=20
> > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided=20
> > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the=20
> > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > >=20
> > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch=20
> > > of caveats.
> >=20
> > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=20
> > how is it supposed to be used?
> >=20
> >=20
> > /martin
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> > > Bjorklund
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > Alex,
> > >=20
> > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e.,=20
> > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal=20
> > > client?
> > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by=20
> > > anyone with proper access rights?
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > /martin
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > >=20
> > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to=20
> > > > depend on state data."
> > > >=20
> > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The=20
> > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course,=20
> > > > we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is=20
> > > > hence maintaining it).
> > > >=20
> > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce=20
> > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you=20
> > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea=20
> > > > and may not even work.
> > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that=20
> > > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is=20
> > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by=20
> > > > operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that=20
> > > > is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't,=20
> > > > unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the=20
> > > > network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed. =20
> > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /=20
> > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem=20
> > > > to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express=20
> > > > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > >=20
> > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express=20
> > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where=20
> > > > topologies originate from different sources=20
> > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement. =20
> > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need=20
> > > > to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way=20
> > > > of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important=20
> > > > that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a=20
> > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining=20
> > > > it
> > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the=20
> > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > >=20
> > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make=20
> > > > it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the=20
> > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > >=20
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin=20
> > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;=20
> > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan=20
> > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >=20
> > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm=20
> > > > > (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=20
> > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue=20
> > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you=20
> > > > > > are referring to).
> > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus=20
> > > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that=20
> > > > > > some topologies are populated by the server whereas some=20
> > > > > > topologies can be populated by client applications.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this=20
> > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies=20
> > > > > > and a
> > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > >=20
> > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back=20
> > > > > to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate=20
> > > > > config from state. This module makes this distinction a=20
> > > > > runtime property controlled by a data model specific=20
> > > > > mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to un=
derstand this.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion=20
> > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and=20
> > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for=20
> > > > > this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe=20
> > > > > this is similar is that you can view the "applied=20
> > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network=20
> > > > > topology, in our case), and the "intended configuration" as=20
> > > > > the, well, configured or intended network topology in our=20
> > > > > case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"=20
> > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this=20
> > > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were=20
> > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by an=
ybody.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >=20
> > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.=20
> > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational=20
> > > > state and not configuration data.
> > > > =20
> > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model=20
> > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction,=20
> > > > > > but would essentially reflect a limitation of the=20
> > > > > > framework), leading to unnecessary additional complexity in=20
> > > > > > the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two=20
> > > > > > places), more complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper=20
> > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have=20
> > > > > in RFC
> > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of=20
> > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other=20
> > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or true.=
 =20
> > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or,=20
> > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >=20
> > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by=20
> > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see=20
> > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network=20
> > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does=20
> > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > >=20
> > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation rul=
es.
> > > > > Please explain.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one=20
> > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For=20
> > > > > this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) net=
work.
> > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary=20
> > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part=20
> > > > > of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > of the same network.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > >=20
> > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > >         description
> > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, that=
=20
> > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layering=
=20
> > > > >            structure.";
> > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > >           }
> > > > >           description
> > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > >         }
> > > > /
> > > > >       }
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we=20
> > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node=20
> > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a=20
> > > > > network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to=20
> > > > > be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > >=20
> > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=20
> > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > >=20
> > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref=20
> > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to=20
> > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference=20
> > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured=20
> > > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce=20
> > > > > a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node. =20
> > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or=20
> > > > > do you see an easier way?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > </ALEX>
> > > >=20
> > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that=20
> > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config=20
> > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint=20
> > > > exists. See section
> > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9=20
> > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe=20
> > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and sta=
te data.
> > > >=20
> > > > /js
> > > >=20
> > > > --=20
> > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germ=
any
> > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > >=20
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > i2rs mailing list
> > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > >=20
> >=20
>=20


From nobody Sat Oct 24 02:18:01 2015
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Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 12:17:57 +0300
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS interim on October 21, 2015 at 10:00am - 12:00pm ET - Agenda and Web-ex info
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Hi,

Is there a webex recording from that session?

Nikolay

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

> I2RS Interim
>
> Date: 10/21/2015
>
> Time: 10:00am - 12:00pm ET
>
>
>
> I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:00-10:05]
>
>
>
> I2RS WG LC on Data Modules [10:05-10:20]
>
> - Topology Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 minutes]
>
>  - RIB Feedback/Changes [Sue Hares, 5 minutes]
>
>  - Discussion: 10 minutes
>
>
>
> I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:20-10:25]
>
>   [Sue Hares ]
>
>
>
> I2RS WG LC Requirements [10:25-10:30]
>
>   - Feedback Summary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes]
>
>
>
> I2RS WG Protocol: Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00]
>
>  - Protocol Overview [10:30 - 10:45]
>
>     Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman
>
>
>
>  - Protocol Examples [10:45- 11:00]
>
>    1) I2RS Protocol Independent
>
>    (RIB, Topology, FB-RIB)
>
>    2) BGP, OSPF
>
>
>
>  Discussion  [11:00 - 12:00pm ]
>
>  Web-ex information:
>
>
>
> Join WebEx meeting
>
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m7d2c19ef23b22f80144e739ffa59df69
>
>
>
> Meeting number:   644 704 791
>
> Meeting password: proto.fun.all
>
>
>
> Join by phone
>
> 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)
>
> 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)
>
> Access code: 644 704 791
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>
>


-- 
BR,

Nikolay Milovanov
Network Engineer
Email: n.milovanov@gmail.com

--001a11473b282b9c540522d6346d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi, <br><br></div>Is there a webex recording fro=
m that session? <br><br></div>Nikolay<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Susan Hares =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" target=3D"_blank">=
shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;=
serif&quot;">I2RS Interim=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&q=
uot;serif&quot;">Date: 10/21/2015=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Time: 10:00am - 12:00pm ET <u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:00-10:05]<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">I2RS WG LC on Data Modules [10:05-1=
0:20]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"> - Topolog=
y Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 minutes]=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0- RIB Feedback/Changes [Sue Ha=
res, 5 minutes] <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>=C2=A0- Discussion: 10 minutes <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&q=
uot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif=
&quot;">I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:20-10:25] <u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0[Sue Hares ]<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier N=
ew&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">I2RS WG LC Requirements [10:25-10:30] <u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0- Feedback S=
ummary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quo=
t;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;s=
erif&quot;">I2RS WG Protocol: Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00] <u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0- Protocol Overview [10=
:30 - 10:45]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0- Protocol Exam=
ples [10:45- 11:00]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 1) I2RS Protocol Independent <u></u><u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(RIB, Topology, FB-RIB)<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 2) BG=
P, OSPF <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0Discussion=
=C2=A0 [11:00 - 12:00pm ]<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;ser=
if&quot;"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=
=A0Web-ex information: <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif=
&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"=
>Join WebEx meeting <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&qu=
ot;"><a href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22f801=
44e739ffa59df69" target=3D"_blank">https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=
=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22f80144e739ffa59df69</a><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier Ne=
w&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&=
quot;serif&quot;">Meeting number: =C2=A0 644 704 791 <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Meeting password: proto.fun.all<u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Join by phone<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free=
 number (US/Canada)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quo=
t;">1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)<u></u><u></u></span></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Access code: 644 704 791<u></u><u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div=
></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
i2rs mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature">BR, <br><br>Nikolay Milovanov <br>Network Engineer<br>Email: <a=
 href=3D"mailto:n.milovanov@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">n.milovanov@gmail.=
com</a><br></div>
</div>

--001a11473b282b9c540522d6346d--


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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:26:21 -0400
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Subject: [i2rs] I2RS 10/21/2015 Interim - Recording
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Topic: 

I2RS Interim: I2RS Protocol and Data Models-20151021 1401-1 

Create time: 

10/21/15 11:30 am 

File size: 

54.77MB 

Duration: 

1 hour 23 minutes 

Security: 

https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif
https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif  

Description: 

Streaming recording link: 

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=0ae15558e9ebaa1839ee129486e40c9c 

Download recording link: 

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/lsr.php?RCID=0c9f66715e7add010bd352eb245d5540 

 

Sue Hares  


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Interim: I2RS Protocol and Data Models-20151021 1401-1 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>Create time:</span> =
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class=3Dcol-sm-3>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>Sue Hares =
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References: <11e694a1b29148faa718d9b361046883@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151020.080648.1633967998805732790.mbj@tail-f.com> <616b94c8983c47ec94d4c70b68b355b5@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151023.091716.2207109577809091732.mbj@tail-f.com> <2e36fc507228491987634f960fa433e9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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> However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG
> framework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not
really
> foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has
> instances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus
others
> representing more traditional configuration.  

I've not followed this entire thread, but I'm a bit baffled by the
discussion at this point. I thought I2RS was based on an atomic/RESTful
model, rather than being transactional. What's being discussed here, though,
smells a lot like a transaction based model -- one device sets some part of
the "configuration" (BTW, I object to the term "configuration" in the first
place, as I2RS is not dealing with configuration, but rather ephemeral state
-- completely different things) in such a way that no other controller can
change it.

This all seems contrary to the spirit of what we're working on here... There
should be priorities to understand which controller/agent has priority over
the others, and there should be callbacks when your piece of state is
overwritten by some other device (whether local or another controller), but
there shouldn't be this concept of a "completed transaction" that we seem to
be talking about here.

I get the distinct feeling we're trying to boil the ocean once again -- I2RS
is not going to configure the entire device (minus some trivial stuff no-one
cares about). I2RS should not be trying to build a fully transactional
database on each device, with locks and such. This should be fast and light,
operating at the speed of any other routing protocol (on the order of
milliseconds), not on the order of minutes/days/weeks/months. 

Can someone please explain why we're talking about this sort of
"configuration?"

Russ 


From nobody Mon Oct 26 11:18:59 2015
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:18:34 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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In YANG, it is assumed that config true nodes exist in a datastore
where all config true nodes are treated the same. A datastore is the
unit of validation and we don't want to have a valid configuration
datatore become invalid arbitrarily. This is why config true nodes are
not allowed to depend on config false nodes (state data that can
change arbitrarily).

/js

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 01:15:55AM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least impact o=
n the existing design and implementation, hence preferable. =20
>=20
> However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG f=
ramework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not really =
foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has inst=
ances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others re=
presenting more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that not really =
address by making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any other=
 client can modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could provide a =
solution, but not in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we would =
need to differentiate access rights at the instance level, not at the modul=
e definition level.  Rather than seeing how we can make our requirements so=
mehow fit a rigid interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not allow=
 for special treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see wh=
ether the YANG framework can be flexible enough to still support what we ar=
e trying to do. =20
>=20
> Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the interim=
, asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think this i=
s something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a metadata ite=
m that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated b=
y a server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when mod=
ified, will presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or, that might si=
mply be locked by the server. =20
>=20
> Thoughts regarding that suggestion?
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; a=
ndy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >=20
> > We can nitpick over how to best express this
>=20
> This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.
>=20
> And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config and =
operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in YAN=
G, so you change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions. =
 I don't think this a good idea.
>=20
> I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violate =
YANG:
>=20
> 1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
>     and explain in text that there might be a client
>     "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
>     (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
>     valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
>     (module access rights)).
>=20
> 2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
>     References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
>     use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
> > , but hopefully the
> > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to=20
> > express is clear.  You can have an outside client application maintain=
=20
> > some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained an=20
> > populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server.
> > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we=20
> > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of the=
=20
> > information.
> >=20
> > Cheers
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >=20
> > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=
=20
> > > how is it supposed to be used?"
> > >=20
> > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the=20
> > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> >=20
> > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something=20
> > it would behave as a normal client.
> >=20
> > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through=20
> > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be=
=20
> > > set to false.
> > >=20
> > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding=20
> > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the=20
> > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> >=20
> > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the=20
> > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access=20
> > rights"
> >=20
> >=20
> > /martin
> >=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config=20
> > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that=20
> > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in=
=20
> > > a separate "state" branch).
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >=20
> > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app=
=20
> > > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to=20
> > > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > >=20
> > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being=20
> > > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally=20
> > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The=20
> > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided=20
> > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the=20
> > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > >=20
> > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch=
=20
> > > > of caveats.
> > >=20
> > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=20
> > > how is it supposed to be used?
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > /martin
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> > > > Bjorklund
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >=20
> > > > Alex,
> > > >=20
> > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e.,=
=20
> > > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal=20
> > > > client?
> > > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by=
=20
> > > > anyone with proper access rights?
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > /martin
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to=20
> > > > > depend on state data."
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The=20
> > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course,=
=20
> > > > > we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is=20
> > > > > hence maintaining it).
> > > > >=20
> > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce=
=20
> > > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you=20
> > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea=20
> > > > > and may not even work.
> > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that=
=20
> > > > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is=20
> > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by=
=20
> > > > > operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that=
=20
> > > > > is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't,=20
> > > > > unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the=20
> > > > > network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed. =
=20
> > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /=20
> > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem=
=20
> > > > > to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express=20
> > > > > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express=20
> > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where=
=20
> > > > > topologies originate from different sources=20
> > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement. =20
> > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need=
=20
> > > > > to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way=
=20
> > > > > of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important=20
> > > > > that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a=20
> > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining=20
> > > > > it
> > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the=20
> > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make=
=20
> > > > > it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the=20
> > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin=20
> > > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;=20
> > > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan=20
> > > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm=20
> > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the=
=20
> > > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue=20
> > > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you=20
> > > > > > > are referring to).
> > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus=
=20
> > > > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that=20
> > > > > > > some topologies are populated by the server whereas some=20
> > > > > > > topologies can be populated by client applications.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this=20
> > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies=
=20
> > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back=
=20
> > > > > > to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate=20
> > > > > > config from state. This module makes this distinction a=20
> > > > > > runtime property controlled by a data model specific=20
> > > > > > mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to =
understand this.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion=20
> > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and=20
> > > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for=
=20
> > > > > > this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe=
=20
> > > > > > this is similar is that you can view the "applied=20
> > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network=
=20
> > > > > > topology, in our case), and the "intended configuration" as=20
> > > > > > the, well, configured or intended network topology in our=20
> > > > > > case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"=
=20
> > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this=
=20
> > > > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were=20
> > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by =
anybody.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.=
=20
> > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational=
=20
> > > > > state and not configuration data.
> > > > > =20
> > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model=
=20
> > > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction,=20
> > > > > > > but would essentially reflect a limitation of the=20
> > > > > > > framework), leading to unnecessary additional complexity in=
=20
> > > > > > > the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two=20
> > > > > > > places), more complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper=20
> > > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have=20
> > > > > > in RFC
> > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of=
=20
> > > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other=20
> > > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or tru=
e. =20
> > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or,=
=20
> > > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by=20
> > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see=20
> > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network=20
> > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does=20
> > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation r=
ules.
> > > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one=
=20
> > > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For=20
> > > > > > this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) n=
etwork.
> > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary=
=20
> > > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part=
=20
> > > > > > of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > > >         description
> > > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, tha=
t=20
> > > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layeri=
ng=20
> > > > > >            structure.";
> > > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > /
> > > > > >       }
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we=20
> > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node=20
> > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a=
=20
> > > > > > network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to=
=20
> > > > > > be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=20
> > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref=
=20
> > > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to=20
> > > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference=
=20
> > > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured=
=20
> > > > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce=
=20
> > > > > > a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node. =
=20
> > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or=
=20
> > > > > > do you see an easier way?
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that=20
> > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config=
=20
> > > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint=20
> > > > > exists. See section
> > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9=20
> > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe=20
> > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and s=
tate data.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > /js
> > > > >=20
> > > > > --=20
> > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Ge=
rmany
> > > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >=20
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:24:59 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology  (10/1 to 10/14)
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Alex,

I can have config that applies to a node named 'foo'. If the node
named 'foo' does not exist, the config will not be applied but it
remains valid config. This is how we deal with interfaces. You write
config for an interface with a certain name. As long as a
corresponding interface does not exist, this config will be ignored.
The point of this exercise is that it decouples the lifetime and
validity of the config from the lifetime of something that may change
arbitrarily.

/js

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 09:42:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hello Juergen,
> 
> can you please explain what you mean by name bindings?  YANG does not provide support for name bindings (at least not a la GDMO).  
> 
> Looking at RFC 7223, I can see the distinction between interface-ref and interface-state-ref.  There certainly is an analogy between interfaces and topology, and the discussion section 3.1 of RFC 7223 and the discussion here.  Still, the interfaces model is different and follows different requirements/patterns that don't make it directly applicable.  Layering etc are not included as part of the base model, but supported via a design pattern where it is added as part of augmentation specific to a given interface type, and being specific which type of interface to reference.  I don't see anything describing the analogy of having a (configured) set of data - e.g. a (configured) topology with a (configured) set of nodes, links, etc - and allowing the items in this to refer to e.g. a (server-provided) topology.  
> 
> In your email, you state "Translated to your domain, I can configure an overlay that refers by name to other layers. If those layers do not operationally exist, the overlay will exist in config but not in the operational state tree".  How would this work?  With "refer by name" you don't mean an actual reference, you mean use "refer by name" to refer to data that is operational state.  In other words, you are punting the problem and leave it to the user and implementation to deal with it.  Instead of using e.g. an actual reference, you are using simply a string.  The concern is that when using a reference, a framework might have problems ensuring referential integrity in case the referred object goes away etc - but this solution does not address the concern, it simply pushes it to somewhere else.  
> 
> At the same time, you do now have two parallel trees, providing additional complexity as outlined earlier, specifically if we want to be able to express some of the integrity constraints (supporting nodes of a node have to be part of a supporting topology, etc).  Well, perhaps we no longer need to be concerned about these, since we are pushing this problem to the user anyway.  However, I am not sure why we would trust users to deal with all those integrity problems, but not trust them e.g. with a "server-provided" attribute.  Additional complexity in the model would be fine if it resulted in a gain, but I don't think this would be the case - to the contrary.  Introducing what you call a "fence" instead seems to be the preferrable solution.  The ability to support this could be indicated by a feature, if that helps.    
> 
> --- Alex
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] 
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:56 PM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas' <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 06:24:10PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> > 
> > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to depend on state data."
> > 
> > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course, we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is hence maintaining it).    
> >
> 
> I expect that config true objects can be modified by clients. And I expect that client maintained config true objects do not depend on server provided operational state. The 'server-provided' leaf seems to 'overrule' both principles.
> 
> > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.  However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea and may not even work.  Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't, unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed.  Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references / dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express layering relationships between topologies, including cases where topologies originate from different sources (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.  It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this - having the model as configuration data, and including a parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining it - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> 
> In the interfaces model, this problem got solved via name bindings. I can configure an interface but as long as the matching interface is not present, the config won't be applied to the interface. Translated to your domain, I can configure an overlay that refers by name to other layers. If those layers do not operationally exist, the overlay will exist in config but not in the operational state tree.
> 
> > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> 
> You can address my concern by doing away with 'server-provided' and by properly separating config from operational state. ;-) Assuming proper authorization, a NC/RC client should be able to change any object in a configuration datastore. I am concerned about data model specific 'fences' that indicate that some portions of a configuration datastore are behaving in special ways.
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Oct 26 12:11:31 2015
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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 19:10:56 +0000
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Cc: "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Juergen,
Understood, but this doesn't really address our problem here.  We want to s=
ee how we can apply YANG to meet our needs, not the other way round.  Hence=
 the suggestion to explore the use of metadata here.
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=20
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 11:19 AM
To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
Cc: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; andy@y=
umaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com; Kent Wats=
en <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

In YANG, it is assumed that config true nodes exist in a datastore where al=
l config true nodes are treated the same. A datastore is the unit of valida=
tion and we don't want to have a valid configuration datatore become invali=
d arbitrarily. This is why config true nodes are not allowed to depend on c=
onfig false nodes (state data that can change arbitrarily).

/js

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 01:15:55AM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least impact o=
n the existing design and implementation, hence preferable. =20
>=20
> However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG f=
ramework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not really =
foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has inst=
ances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others re=
presenting more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that not really =
address by making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any other=
 client can modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could provide a =
solution, but not in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we would =
need to differentiate access rights at the instance level, not at the modul=
e definition level.  Rather than seeing how we can make our requirements so=
mehow fit a rigid interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not allow=
 for special treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see wh=
ether the YANG framework can be flexible enough to still support what we ar=
e trying to do. =20
>=20
> Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the interim=
, asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think this i=
s something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a metadata ite=
m that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated b=
y a server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when mod=
ified, will presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or, that might si=
mply be locked by the server. =20
>=20
> Thoughts regarding that suggestion?
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >=20
> > We can nitpick over how to best express this
>=20
> This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.
>=20
> And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config and =
operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in YAN=
G, so you change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions. =
 I don't think this a good idea.
>=20
> I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violate =
YANG:
>=20
> 1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
>     and explain in text that there might be a client
>     "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
>     (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
>     valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
>     (module access rights)).
>=20
> 2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
>     References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
>     use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
> > , but hopefully the
> > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to=20
> > express is clear.  You can have an outside client application=20
> > maintain some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained=20
> > an populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server.
> > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we=20
> > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of=20
> > the information.
> >=20
> > Cheers
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >=20
> > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented,=20
> > > and how is it supposed to be used?"
> > >=20
> > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the=20
> > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> >=20
> > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something=20
> > it would behave as a normal client.
> >=20
> > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through=20
> > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to=20
> > > be set to false.
> > >=20
> > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding=20
> > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the=20
> > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> >=20
> > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the=20
> > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access=20
> > rights"
> >=20
> >=20
> > /martin
> >=20
> >=20
> > >=20
> > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config=20
> > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that=20
> > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not=20
> > > (in a separate "state" branch).
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >=20
> > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an=20
> > > > app (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how=20
> > > > to discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > >=20
> > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being=20
> > > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally=20
> > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The=20
> > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided=20
> > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the=20
> > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > >=20
> > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a=20
> > > > bunch of caveats.
> > >=20
> > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=20
> > > how is it supposed to be used?
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > /martin
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> > > > Bjorklund
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >=20
> > > > Alex,
> > > >=20
> > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config? =20
> > > > I.e., if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a=20
> > > > normal client?
> > > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified=20
> > > > by anyone with proper access rights?
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > /martin
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to=20
> > > > > depend on state data."
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The=20
> > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of=20
> > > > > course, we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data=20
> > > > > (and is hence maintaining it).
> > > > >=20
> > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and=20
> > > > > introduce operational data to reflect what is populated by the se=
rver.
> > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you=20
> > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea=20
> > > > > and may not even work.
> > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express=20
> > > > > that in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is=20
> > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented=20
> > > > > by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology=20
> > > > > that is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we=20
> > > > > can't, unless we replicate the server-provided topology into=20
> > > > > the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed=
.
> > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /=20
> > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the=20
> > > > > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model=20
> > > > > express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express=20
> > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases=20
> > > > > where topologies originate from different sources=20
> > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.
> > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we=20
> > > > > need to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a=20
> > > > > "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is=20
> > > > > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution=20
> > > > > to this
> > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a=20
> > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining=20
> > > > > it
> > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the=20
> > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can=20
> > > > > make it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the=20
> > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin=20
> > > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;=20
> > > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan=20
> > > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm=20
> > > > > (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm
> > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns=20
> > > > > > > the "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate=20
> > > > > > > issue that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is=20
> > > > > > > what you are referring to).
> > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended,=20
> > > > > > > versus one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the=20
> > > > > > > issue that some topologies are populated by the server=20
> > > > > > > whereas some topologies can be populated by client applicatio=
ns.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this=20
> > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended"=20
> > > > > > > topologies and a
> > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes=20
> > > > > > back to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly=20
> > > > > > separate config from state. This module makes this=20
> > > > > > distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model=20
> > > > > > specific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be=
 able to understand this.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion=20
> > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and=20
> > > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution=20
> > > > > > for this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I=20
> > > > > > believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied=20
> > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration"=20
> > > > > > (network topology, in our case), and the "intended=20
> > > > > > configuration" as the, well, configured or intended network=20
> > > > > > topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"=
=20
> > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case=20
> > > > > > this is not necessarily the case
> > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were=20
> > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by =
anybody.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.=20
> > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be=20
> > > > > operational state and not configuration data.
> > > > > =20
> > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=20
> > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the=20
> > > > > > > model (this is not your normal config vs oper data=20
> > > > > > > distinction, but would essentially reflect a limitation of=20
> > > > > > > the framework), leading to unnecessary additional=20
> > > > > > > complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be=20
> > > > > > > conducted in two places), more complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper=20
> > > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have=20
> > > > > > in RFC
> > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part=20
> > > > > > of configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other=20
> > > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or tru=
e. =20
> > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply -=20
> > > > > > or, the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by=20
> > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see=20
> > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network=20
> > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does=20
> > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation r=
ules.
> > > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in=20
> > > > > > one network is supported by a node in an underlay network. =20
> > > > > > For this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underla=
y) network.
> > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an=20
> > > > > > arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the supporting=20
> > > > > > node is part of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > > >         description
> > > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, tha=
t=20
> > > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layeri=
ng=20
> > > > > >            structure.";
> > > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > /
> > > > > >       }
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we=20
> > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node=20
> > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of=20
> > > > > > a network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need=20
> > > > > > to be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=20
> > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the=20
> > > > > > network-ref to be part of the key for supporting-node - we=20
> > > > > > would have to replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes=20
> > > > > > that reference either a server-provided network ("branch=20
> > > > > > 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we=20
> > > > > > will have to introduce a separate way to reference elements in =
list supporting-node.
> > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity. =20
> > > > > > Or do you see an easier way?
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that=20
> > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other=20
> > > > > config true nodes in the datastore where the node with the=20
> > > > > constraint exists. See section
> > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9=20
> > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe=20
> > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and s=
tate data.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > /js
> > > > >=20
> > > > > --=20
> > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Ge=
rmany
> > > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/=
>
> > > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >=20
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >=20
> > >=20
> >=20

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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I do not think metadata changes the way configuration datastore
validation works.

/js

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 07:10:56PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> Hi Juergen,
> Understood, but this doesn't really address our problem here.  We want to=
 see how we can apply YANG to meet our needs, not the other way round.  Hen=
ce the suggestion to explore the use of metadata here.
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]=
=20
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 11:19 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; andy=
@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com; Kent Wa=
tsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> In YANG, it is assumed that config true nodes exist in a datastore where =
all config true nodes are treated the same. A datastore is the unit of vali=
dation and we don't want to have a valid configuration datatore become inva=
lid arbitrarily. This is why config true nodes are not allowed to depend on=
 config false nodes (state data that can change arbitrarily).
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 01:15:55AM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >=20
> > maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least impact=
 on the existing design and implementation, hence preferable. =20
> >=20
> > However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG=
 framework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not reall=
y foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has in=
stances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others =
representing more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that not reall=
y address by making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any oth=
er client can modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could provide =
a solution, but not in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we woul=
d need to differentiate access rights at the instance level, not at the mod=
ule definition level.  Rather than seeing how we can make our requirements =
somehow fit a rigid interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not all=
ow for special treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see =
whether the YANG framework can be flexible enough to still support what we =
are trying to do. =20
> >=20
> > Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the inter=
im, asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think this=
 is something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a metadata i=
tem that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated=
 by a server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when m=
odified, will presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or, that might =
simply be locked by the server. =20
> >=20
> > Thoughts regarding that suggestion?
> >=20
> > --- Alex
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >=20
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >=20
> > > We can nitpick over how to best express this
> >=20
> > This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.
> >=20
> > And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config an=
d operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in Y=
ANG, so you change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions=
.  I don't think this a good idea.
> >=20
> > I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violat=
e YANG:
> >=20
> > 1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
> >     and explain in text that there might be a client
> >     "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
> >     (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
> >     valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
> >     (module access rights)).
> >=20
> > 2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
> >     References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
> >     use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";
> >=20
> >=20
> > /martin
> >=20
> > > , but hopefully the
> > > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to=20
> > > express is clear.  You can have an outside client application=20
> > > maintain some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained=
=20
> > > an populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the serve=
r.
> > > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we=
=20
> > > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of=20
> > > the information.
> > >=20
> > > Cheers
> > > --- Alex
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >=20
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >=20
> > > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented,=20
> > > > and how is it supposed to be used?"
> > > >=20
> > > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the=20
> > > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> > >=20
> > > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something=
=20
> > > it would behave as a normal client.
> > >=20
> > > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through=20
> > > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to=
=20
> > > > be set to false.
> > > >=20
> > > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding=20
> > > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the=20
> > > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> > >=20
> > > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the=20
> > > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access=20
> > > rights"
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > /martin
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config=
=20
> > > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that=20
> > > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not=20
> > > > (in a separate "state" branch).
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >=20
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;=20
> > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >=20
> > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an=20
> > > > > app (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how=
=20
> > > > > to discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being=20
> > > > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally=20
> > > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The=20
> > > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided=20
> > > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the=20
> > > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > > >=20
> > > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a=20
> > > > > bunch of caveats.
> > > >=20
> > > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and=
=20
> > > > how is it supposed to be used?
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > /martin
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin=20
> > > > > Bjorklund
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;=20
> > > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;=20
> > > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Alex,
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config? =20
> > > > > I.e., if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a=
=20
> > > > > normal client?
> > > > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified=
=20
> > > > > by anyone with proper access rights?
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > /martin
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to=20
> > > > > > depend on state data."
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The=20
> > > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of=20
> > > > > > course, we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data=20
> > > > > > (and is hence maintaining it).
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and=20
> > > > > > introduce operational data to reflect what is populated by the =
server.
> > > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you=
=20
> > > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea=
=20
> > > > > > and may not even work.
> > > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express=20
> > > > > > that in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is=20
> > > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented=
=20
> > > > > > by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology=
=20
> > > > > > that is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we=20
> > > > > > can't, unless we replicate the server-provided topology into=20
> > > > > > the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screw=
ed.
> > > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /=20
> > > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the=20
> > > > > > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model=20
> > > > > > express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express=20
> > > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases=20
> > > > > > where topologies originate from different sources=20
> > > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.
> > > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we=20
> > > > > > need to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a=20
> > > > > > "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is=
=20
> > > > > > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution=
=20
> > > > > > to this
> > > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a=20
> > > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining=
=20
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the=
=20
> > > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the=20
> > > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can=20
> > > > > > make it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the=
=20
> > > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin=20
> > > > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;=
=20
> > > > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan=20
> > > > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm=20
> > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman=20
> > > > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund=20
> > > > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atla=
s'
> > > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm
> > > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns=20
> > > > > > > > the "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate=20
> > > > > > > > issue that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is=20
> > > > > > > > what you are referring to).
> > > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning=20
> > > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended,=20
> > > > > > > > versus one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the=20
> > > > > > > > issue that some topologies are populated by the server=20
> > > > > > > > whereas some topologies can be populated by client applicat=
ions.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this=
=20
> > > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended"=20
> > > > > > > > topologies and a
> > > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes=20
> > > > > > > back to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly=20
> > > > > > > separate config from state. This module makes this=20
> > > > > > > distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model=20
> > > > > > > specific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will =
be able to understand this.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion=
=20
> > > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and=
=20
> > > > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution=20
> > > > > > > for this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I=20
> > > > > > > believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied=20
> > > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration"=20
> > > > > > > (network topology, in our case), and the "intended=20
> > > > > > > configuration" as the, well, configured or intended network=
=20
> > > > > > > topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration=
"=20
> > > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case=20
> > > > > > > this is not necessarily the case
> > > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were=20
> > > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured b=
y anybody.
> > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.=
=20
> > > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be=20
> > > > > > operational state and not configuration data.
> > > > > > =20
> > > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of=
=20
> > > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the=20
> > > > > > > > model (this is not your normal config vs oper data=20
> > > > > > > > distinction, but would essentially reflect a limitation of=
=20
> > > > > > > > the framework), leading to unnecessary additional=20
> > > > > > > > complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be=20
> > > > > > > > conducted in two places), more complex validation rules, et=
c.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper=
=20
> > > > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have=
=20
> > > > > > > in RFC
> > > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part=
=20
> > > > > > > of configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data. =20
> > > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other=
=20
> > > > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or t=
rue. =20
> > > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply -=20
> > > > > > > or, the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by=
=20
> > > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see=
=20
> > > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network=
=20
> > > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does=
=20
> > > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation=
 rules.
> > > > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs. =20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in=20
> > > > > > > one network is supported by a node in an underlay network. =
=20
> > > > > > > For this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (under=
lay) network.
> > > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an=20
> > > > > > > arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the supporting=
=20
> > > > > > > node is part of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > > > >         description
> > > > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, t=
hat=20
> > > > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent laye=
ring=20
> > > > > > >            structure.";
> > > > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > > > >           }
> > > > > > >           description
> > > > > > >             "References the underlay network that the=20
> > > > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > > > >         }
> > > > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > > > >           }
> > > > > > >           description
> > > > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > > > >         }
> > > > > > /
> > > > > > >       }
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we=
=20
> > > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node=20
> > > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of=
=20
> > > > > > > a network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need=
=20
> > > > > > > to be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not=
=20
> > > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the=20
> > > > > > > network-ref to be part of the key for supporting-node - we=20
> > > > > > > would have to replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes=
=20
> > > > > > > that reference either a server-provided network ("branch=20
> > > > > > > 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we=
=20
> > > > > > > will have to introduce a separate way to reference elements i=
n list supporting-node.
> > > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity. =
=20
> > > > > > > Or do you see an easier way?
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that=20
> > > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other=20
> > > > > > config true nodes in the datastore where the node with the=20
> > > > > > constraint exists. See section
> > > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9=
=20
> > > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe=
=20
> > > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and=
 state data.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > /js
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > --=20
> > > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
> > > > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.d=
e/>
> > > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > > >=20
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > >=20
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS interim on October 21, 2015 at 10:00am - 12:00pm ET - Agenda and Web-ex info
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Topic:=20

I2RS Interim: I2RS Protocol and Data Models-20151021 1401-1=20

Create time:=20

10/21/15 11:30 am=20

File size:=20

54.77MB=20

Duration:=20

1 hour 23 minutes=20

Security:=20

https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif  =
https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif =20

Description:=20

Streaming recording link:=20

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3D0ae15558e9ebaa1839ee129486e40c=
9c=20

Download recording link:=20

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/lsr.php?RCID=3D0c9f66715e7add010bd352eb245d55=
40=20

=20

Sue Hares =20

=20

=20

=20

From: Nikolay Milovanov [mailto:n.milovanov@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 5:18 AM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: i2rs@ietf.org; Jeffrey Haas; Alia Atlas
Subject: Re: [i2rs] I2RS interim on October 21, 2015 at 10:00am - =
12:00pm ET - Agenda and Web-ex info

=20

Hi,=20

Is there a webex recording from that session?=20

Nikolay

=20

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

I2RS Interim =20

Date: 10/21/2015 =20

Time: 10:00am - 12:00pm ET=20

=20

I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:00-10:05]

=20

I2RS WG LC on Data Modules [10:05-10:20]

- Topology Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 minutes] =20

 - RIB Feedback/Changes [Sue Hares, 5 minutes]=20

 - Discussion: 10 minutes=20

=20

I2RS Hackathon Plans [10:20-10:25]=20

  [Sue Hares ]

=20

I2RS WG LC Requirements [10:25-10:30]=20

  - Feedback Summary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes]=20

 =20

I2RS WG Protocol: Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00]=20

 - Protocol Overview [10:30 - 10:45]

    Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman=20

     =20

 - Protocol Examples [10:45- 11:00]

   1) I2RS Protocol Independent=20

   (RIB, Topology, FB-RIB)

   2) BGP, OSPF=20

=20

 Discussion  [11:00 - 12:00pm ]

 Web-ex information:=20

=20

Join WebEx meeting=20

https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22f80144e739ffa59df6=
9

=20

Meeting number:   644 704 791=20

Meeting password: proto.fun.all

=20

Join by phone

1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)

1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

Access code: 644 704 791

=20

=20


_______________________________________________
i2rs mailing list
i2rs@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs




--=20

BR,=20

Nikolay Milovanov=20
Network Engineer
Email: n.milovanov@gmail.com


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>Topic:</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I2RS =
Interim: I2RS Protocol and Data Models-20151021 1401-1 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>Create time:</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>10/21/15 11:30 am <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>File size:</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>54.77MB <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>Duration:</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>1 hour 23 minutes <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>Security:</span> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><img width=3D14 height=3D14 =
id=3D"Picture_x0020_2" src=3D"cid:image001.png@01D110BC.23899410" =
alt=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif">&nb=
sp; <img width=3D14 height=3D14 id=3D"Picture_x0020_1" =
src=3D"cid:image001.png@01D110BC.23899410" =
alt=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/tc3000/trainingcenter/html/img/1x1.gif">&nb=
sp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>Description:</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dcol-sm-3>Streaming recording =
link:</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3D0ae15558e9ebaa1839ee12=
9486e40c9c" =
id=3DlinkOfPlaybackUrl>https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=3D0ae1555=
8e9ebaa1839ee129486e40c9c</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>Download recording link:</span> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/lsr.php?RCID=3D0c9f66715e7add010bd352=
eb245d5540" =
id=3DlinkOfDownloadUrl>https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/lsr.php?RCID=3D0c9f667=
15e7add010bd352eb245d5540</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dcol-sm-3>Sue Hares </span>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Nikolay Milovanov [mailto:n.milovanov@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Saturday, October 24, 2015 5:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Susan =
Hares<br><b>Cc:</b> i2rs@ietf.org; Jeffrey Haas; Alia =
Atlas<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [i2rs] I2RS interim on October 21, 2015 at =
10:00am - 12:00pm ET - Agenda and Web-ex info<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi, =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Is there a webex recording from that =
session? <o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Nikolay<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, =
Oct 20, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" =
target=3D"_blank">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS Interim&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Date: =
10/21/2015&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Time: 10:00am - =
12:00pm ET </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS Hackathon =
Plans [10:00-10:05]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS WG LC on Data =
Modules [10:05-10:20]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>- Topology =
Feedback/Changes [Alexander Clemm, 5 minutes]&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;- RIB =
Feedback/Changes [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;- Discussion: =
10 minutes </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS Hackathon =
Plans [10:20-10:25] </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;[Sue =
Hares ]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS WG LC =
Requirements [10:25-10:30] </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;- =
Feedback Summary [Sue Hares, 5 minutes] </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I2RS WG Protocol: =
Initial Thoughts [10:30-11:00] </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;- Protocol =
Overview [10:30 - 10:45]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Sue Hares, Kent Watsen, Andy Bierman </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;- Protocol =
Examples [10:45- 11:00]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1) =
I2RS Protocol Independent </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(RIB, Topology, FB-RIB)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;&nbsp; 2) =
BGP, OSPF </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;Discussion&nbsp; [11:00 - 12:00pm ]</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&nbsp;Web-ex =
information: </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Join WebEx meeting =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><a =
href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22f80144e739=
ffa59df69" =
target=3D"_blank">https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm7d2c19ef23b22=
f80144e739ffa59df69</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Meeting number: =
&nbsp; 644 704 791 </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Meeting password: =
proto.fun.all</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Join by =
phone</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>1-877-668-4493 =
Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>1-650-479-3208 =
Call-in toll number (US/Canada)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Access code: 644 =
704 791</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>i2rs mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br clear=3Dall><br>-- =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>BR, <br><br>Nikolay Milovanov =
<br>Network Engineer<br>Email: <a href=3D"mailto:n.milovanov@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">n.milovanov@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></d=
iv></body></html>
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From nobody Wed Oct 28 05:47:26 2015
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 08:47:16 -0400
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Subject: [i2rs] WG LC on Requirements
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In October we had WG LC on 4 requirements documents  

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt

draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements-01.txt

draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt

draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt

              

The pub-sub and traceability were WG LC in June 2015.

All the requirements will go to the IESG at the same time

so this check was to see if there was any inconsistency in 

the requirements.  

 

The comments on the requirements focus on the requirements for

Ephemeral state (draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt). 

The changes involved some editorial issues and the minimum amount of

changes to the NETCONF or RESTCONF.  

 

On Monday, a new ephemeral state document will be released along

with a new architecture model to address the editorial issues. 

 

At IETF 94, the I2RS meeting and NETCONF meeting will discuss initial input
on the I2RS protocol.  The result of these discussions will be input into
the ephemeral document for the minimal state requirements for NETCONF and
RESTCONF.   A WG LC will for the ephemeral state will changes will begin on
11/6 and complete on 11/20.  At that time, the 4 requirements documents will
be passed to the IESG. 

 

Sue Hares 

 

1)       


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>In October =
we had WG LC on 4 requirements documents &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>draft-ietf-i2rs-protocol-security-requirements=
-01.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>draft-ietf-i2rs-pub-sub-requirements-03.txt<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>draft-ietf-i2rs-traceability-03.txt<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The pub-sub =
and traceability were WG LC in June 2015.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>All the requirements will go to the IESG at the same =
time<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>so this check was to see if =
there was any inconsistency in <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>the =
requirements. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The comments =
on the requirements focus on the requirements for<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ephemeral state =
(draft-ietf-i2rs-ephemeral-state-02.txt). <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The changes involved some editorial issues and the =
minimum amount of<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>changes to the =
NETCONF or RESTCONF.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Monday, a =
new ephemeral state document will be released along<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>with a new architecture model to address the editorial =
issues. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>At IETF 94, the I2RS meeting and NETCONF meeting will =
discuss initial input on the I2RS protocol.&nbsp; The result of these =
discussions will be input into the ephemeral document for the minimal =
state requirements for NETCONF and RESTCONF. &nbsp;&nbsp;A WG LC will =
for the ephemeral state will changes will begin on 11/6 and complete on =
11/20.&nbsp; At that time, the 4 requirements documents will be passed =
to the IESG. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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The I2RS WG LC on the RIB Informational Model has completed. The WG has
reached consensus on this document.  

 

The next steps for this document are Shepherd reviews and routing-area
reviews prior to submission to the IESG. 

 

Sue 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>The I2RS =
WG LC on the RIB Informational Model has completed. The WG has reached =
consensus on this document.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The next =
steps for this document are Shepherd reviews and routing-area reviews =
prior to submission to the IESG. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sue =
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The WG LC on topology data models included: 

 

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology-00

draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology-00 

 

The discussion on the WG list is continuing so there is no consensus at this
time. 

A second WG LC will be called in November. 

 

Sue 


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>The WG LC =
on topology data models included: <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-network-topo-01<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l3-topology-00<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>draft-ietf-i2rs-yang-l2-topology-00 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The =
discussion on the WG list is continuing so there is no consensus at this =
time. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A second WG LC will be called =
in November. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
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From: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Alexander Clemm \(alex\)" <alex@cisco.com>, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Gert,

You are right. When the user configures an abstract link specifying the und=
erlay topology path, the user essentially provides a set of inclusion const=
raints for the trail supporting the link. Although it is not reflected yet =
in the TE-TOPO model, it should be possible to specify whether it is accept=
able or not to deviate from said constraints on the trail setup and/or duri=
ng its lifetime (e.g. in case of restoration). One server side implementati=
on you and I are aware of has this capability already.

Kind regards,
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 4:16 PM
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
Cc: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.c=
om>; andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.d=
e; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi Igor,

It would be advisable to let the client decide whether a different underlay=
 shall invalidate the intended config.=20

Best

Gert

Sent from my Apple ][

> On 23 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> It is possible that a user configures a link of a customized (user define=
d) topology providing also the path defined in underlay server defined topo=
logy. Said underlay path needs to be considered as intended configuration. =
Actual underlay path will be state data in this case ( personally I also do=
 not see a difference between state and server provided data), which may or=
 may not match the intended underlay path. The actual underlay path may als=
o change over time due, for example, network failure restoration procedures=
 affecting the underlay topology.
> The link of the user defined topology is not invalidated in this case. Us=
er just has to deal with the fact that the intended configuration may not n=
ecessarily match the actual configuration and state data.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:12 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; a=
ndy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch. =20
>=20
> The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and underl=
ay will be broken.  The fact that those links will be invalidated is someth=
ing that ultimately needs to be indicated. =20
>=20
> Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually face=
d by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What is the s=
olution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left up to the app=
lication, correct?)
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:04 PM
>=20
> .....
>=20
>=20
> What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference to a=
 server-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its network?  I s=
ee no special text in your document about this case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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From: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>, Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
Thread-Index: AQHRCvyW/kuRuGBpeEOwmI81xAetCJ54NaeQgAEtqwCAAHngAIAACdEA///tSjA=
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 00:57:57 +0000
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References: <b9b6c455f60e4b5da8c104ecfe7bd561@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151019195558.GB81648@elstar.local> <6f21254dc3a04c1ca961b455017c9e29@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151020.080426.1227842775405864528.mbj@tail-f.com> <9735f78c1b654837812606f26591bfaa@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>, <71060292c9a84e0eab36475a5b7c3827@ATL-SRV-MBX1.advaoptical.com> <124E6C4C-0258-41B1-B1FF-C770361E4802@juniper.net> <52d07bf5ecc64f6ab55442e1ff5344b4@ATL-SRV-MBX1.advaoptical.com>
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Cc: "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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This is an interesting suggestion.  Taking this a little further rises the =
question how this would be represented.=20
One option would be the introduction of another flag indicating the "valida=
tion policy" that should be applied.  Or, perhaps preferrably, introducing =
a separate state (can be in a separate subtree) to indicate the current int=
egrity state with regards to layering relationships, where any changes in t=
he underlay that have not been properly tracked in configured layering rela=
tionships would be tracked/flagged. =20
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Bryskin [mailto:IBryskin@advaoptical.com]=20
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 1:51 PM
To: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
Cc: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.c=
om>; andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.d=
e; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: RE: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Gert,

You are right. When the user configures an abstract link specifying the und=
erlay topology path, the user essentially provides a set of inclusion const=
raints for the trail supporting the link. Although it is not reflected yet =
in the TE-TOPO model, it should be possible to specify whether it is accept=
able or not to deviate from said constraints on the trail setup and/or duri=
ng its lifetime (e.g. in case of restoration). One server side implementati=
on you and I are aware of has this capability already.

Kind regards,
Igor

-----Original Message-----
From: Gert Grammel [mailto:ggrammel@juniper.net]=20
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 4:16 PM
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
Cc: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>; Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.c=
om>; andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.d=
e; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)

Hi Igor,

It would be advisable to let the client decide whether a different underlay=
 shall invalidate the intended config.=20

Best

Gert

Sent from my Apple ][

> On 23 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> It is possible that a user configures a link of a customized (user define=
d) topology providing also the path defined in underlay server defined topo=
logy. Said underlay path needs to be considered as intended configuration. =
Actual underlay path will be state data in this case ( personally I also do=
 not see a difference between state and server provided data), which may or=
 may not match the intended underlay path. The actual underlay path may als=
o change over time due, for example, network failure restoration procedures=
 affecting the underlay topology.
> The link of the user defined topology is not invalidated in this case. Us=
er just has to deal with the fact that the intended configuration may not n=
ecessarily match the actual configuration and state data.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:12 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; a=
ndy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch. =20
>=20
> The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and underl=
ay will be broken.  The fact that those links will be invalidated is someth=
ing that ultimately needs to be indicated. =20
>=20
> Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually face=
d by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What is the s=
olution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left up to the app=
lication, correct?)
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:04 PM
>=20
> .....
>=20
>=20
> What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference to a=
 server-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its network?  I s=
ee no special text in your document about this case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


From nobody Sat Oct 31 09:32:12 2015
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From: "Russ White" <russw@riw.us>
To: "'Alexander Clemm \(alex\)'" <alex@cisco.com>, "'Martin Bjorklund'" <mbj@tail-f.com>
References: <11e694a1b29148faa718d9b361046883@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151020.080648.1633967998805732790.mbj@tail-f.com> <616b94c8983c47ec94d4c70b68b355b5@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> <20151023.091716.2207109577809091732.mbj@tail-f.com> <2e36fc507228491987634f960fa433e9@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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> However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG
> framework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not
really
> foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has
> instances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus
others
> representing more traditional configuration.  

I've not followed this entire thread, but I'm a bit baffled by the
discussion at this point. I thought I2RS was based on an atomic/RESTful
model, rather than being transactional. What's being discussed here, though,
smells a lot like a transaction based model -- one device sets some part of
the "configuration" (BTW, I object to the term "configuration" in the first
place, as I2RS is not dealing with configuration, but rather ephemeral state
-- completely different things) in such a way that no other controller can
change it.

This all seems contrary to the spirit of what we're working on here... There
should be priorities to understand which controller/agent has priority over
the others, and there should be callbacks when your piece of state is
overwritten by some other device (whether local or another controller), but
there shouldn't be this concept of a "completed transaction" that we seem to
be talking about here.

I get the distinct feeling we're trying to boil the ocean once again -- I2RS
is not going to configure the entire device (minus some trivial stuff no-one
cares about). I2RS should not be trying to build a fully transactional
database on each device, with locks and such. This should be fast and light,
operating at the speed of any other routing protocol (on the order of
milliseconds), not on the order of minutes/days/weeks/months. 

Can someone please explain why we're talking about this sort of
"configuration?"

Russ 


From nobody Sat Oct 31 09:32:13 2015
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>,  "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>,  "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>,  "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi,

I agree that adding meta-data will have no affect on
a client that thinks it can edit config=true.  Especially
when the knob that overrides the semantics of the config-stmt
is in the configuration itself.

So why can't the interfaces + interfaces-state design be applied here?
Given that charter explicitly states read-only topology, why is this
even in there?

You can define objects in a grouping later.
It is OK to reorg objects into/out of groupings if the
same "final" syntax and semantics is maintained.


Andy


On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 12:13 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> I do not think metadata changes the way configuration datastore
> validation works.
>
> /js
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 07:10:56PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> > Hi Juergen,
> > Understood, but this doesn't really address our problem here.  We want
> to see how we can apply YANG to meet our needs, not the other way round.
> Hence the suggestion to explore the use of metadata here.
> > --- Alex
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
> ]
> > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 11:19 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com;
> Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >
> > In YANG, it is assumed that config true nodes exist in a datastore where
> all config true nodes are treated the same. A datastore is the unit of
> validation and we don't want to have a valid configuration datatore become
> invalid arbitrarily. This is why config true nodes are not allowed to
> depend on config false nodes (state data that can change arbitrarily).
> >
> > /js
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 01:15:55AM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > > maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least
> impact on the existing design and implementation, hence preferable.
> > >
> > > However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the
> YANG framework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not
> really foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that
> has instances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus
> others representing more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that
> not really address by making it regular config concerns your assertion that
> "any other client can modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could
> provide a solution, but not in the way as currently defined via NACM, since
> we would need to differentiate access rights at the instance level, not at
> the module definition level.  Rather than seeing how we can make our
> requirements somehow fit a rigid interpretation of the YANG framework (that
> does not allow for special treatment / behavior of special cases), I would
> like to see whether the YANG framework can be flexible enough to still
> support what we are trying to do.
> > >
> > > Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the
> interim, asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think
> this is something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a
> metadata item that indicates for configuration information whether that was
> populated by a server, so really should not be modified by other clients
> (or, when modified, will presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or,
> that might simply be locked by the server.
> > >
> > > Thoughts regarding that suggestion?
> > >
> > > --- Alex
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >
> > > > We can nitpick over how to best express this
> > >
> > > This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.
> > >
> > > And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config
> and operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in
> YANG, so you change the semantics of the formal statements with
> descriptions.  I don't think this a good idea.
> > >
> > > I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't
> violate YANG:
> > >
> > > 1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
> > >     and explain in text that there might be a client
> > >     "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
> > >     (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
> > >     valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
> > >     (module access rights)).
> > >
> > > 2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
> > >     References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
> > >     use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";
> > >
> > >
> > > /martin
> > >
> > > > , but hopefully the
> > > > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to
> > > > express is clear.  You can have an outside client application
> > > > maintain some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained
> > > > an populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the
> server.
> > > > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we
> > > > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of
> > > > the information.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >
> > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > >
> > > > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented,
> > > > > and how is it supposed to be used?"
> > > > >
> > > > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the
> > > > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> > > >
> > > > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something
> > > > it would behave as a normal client.
> > > >
> > > > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through
> > > > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to
> > > > > be set to false.
> > > > >
> > > > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding
> > > > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the
> > > > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> > > >
> > > > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the
> > > > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access
> > > > rights"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > /martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config
> > > > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that
> > > > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not
> > > > > (in a separate "state" branch).
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> > > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an
> > > > > > app (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how
> > > > > > to discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being
> > > > > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally
> > > > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The
> > > > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided
> > > > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the
> > > > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a
> > > > > > bunch of caveats.
> > > > >
> > > > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and
> > > > > how is it supposed to be used?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > /martin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> > > > > > Bjorklund
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;
> > > > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alex,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?
> > > > > > I.e., if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a
> > > > > > normal client?
> > > > > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified
> > > > > > by anyone with proper access rights?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > /martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to
> > > > > > > depend on state data."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The
> > > > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of
> > > > > > > course, we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data
> > > > > > > (and is hence maintaining it).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and
> > > > > > > introduce operational data to reflect what is populated by the
> server.
> > > > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you
> > > > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea
> > > > > > > and may not even work.
> > > > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express
> > > > > > > that in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is
> > > > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented
> > > > > > > by operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology
> > > > > > > that is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we
> > > > > > > can't, unless we replicate the server-provided topology into
> > > > > > > the network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are
> screwed.
> > > > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /
> > > > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the
> > > > > > > problem to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model
> > > > > > > express vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express
> > > > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases
> > > > > > > where topologies originate from different sources
> > > > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.
> > > > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we
> > > > > > > need to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a
> > > > > > > "nice" way of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is
> > > > > > > important that we find a way to do this.  The current solution
> > > > > > > to this
> > > > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a
> > > > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the
> > > > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > > > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can
> > > > > > > make it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the
> > > > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin
> > > > > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;
> > > > > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan
> > > > > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm
> > > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman
> > > > > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > > > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia
> Atlas'
> > > > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm
> > > > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns
> > > > > > > > > the "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate
> > > > > > > > > issue that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is
> > > > > > > > > what you are referring to).
> > > > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning
> > > > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended,
> > > > > > > > > versus one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the
> > > > > > > > > issue that some topologies are populated by the server
> > > > > > > > > whereas some topologies can be populated by client
> applications.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this
> > > > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended"
> > > > > > > > > topologies and a
> > > > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes
> > > > > > > > back to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly
> > > > > > > > separate config from state. This module makes this
> > > > > > > > distinction a runtime property controlled by a data model
> > > > > > > > specific mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will
> be able to understand this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion
> > > > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and
> > > > > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution
> > > > > > > > for this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I
> > > > > > > > believe this is similar is that you can view the "applied
> > > > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration"
> > > > > > > > (network topology, in our case), and the "intended
> > > > > > > > configuration" as the, well, configured or intended network
> > > > > > > > topology in our case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied
> configuration"
> > > > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case
> > > > > > > > this is not necessarily the case
> > > > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were
> > > > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured
> by anybody.
> > > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.
> > > > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be
> > > > > > > operational state and not configuration data.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> > > > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the
> > > > > > > > > model (this is not your normal config vs oper data
> > > > > > > > > distinction, but would essentially reflect a limitation of
> > > > > > > > > the framework), leading to unnecessary additional
> > > > > > > > > complexity in the model (every augmentation has to be
> > > > > > > > > conducted in two places), more complex validation rules,
> etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper
> > > > > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have
> > > > > > > > in RFC
> > > > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part
> > > > > > > > of configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.
> > > > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other
> > > > > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or
> true.
> > > > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply -
> > > > > > > > or, the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by
> > > > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see
> > > > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network
> > > > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does
> > > > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex
> validation rules.
> > > > > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in
> > > > > > > > one network is supported by a node in an underlay network.
> > > > > > > > For this purpose, we are referencing a node in another
> (underlay) network.
> > > > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an
> > > > > > > > arbitrary network, we want to make sure that the supporting
> > > > > > > > node is part of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > > > > >         description
> > > > > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network,
> that
> > > > > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent
> layering
> > > > > > > >            structure.";
> > > > > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > > > > >           }
> > > > > > > >           description
> > > > > > > >             "References the underlay network that the
> > > > > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > > > > >         }
> > > > > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > > > > >           }
> > > > > > > >           description
> > > > > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > > > > >         }
> > > > > > > /
> > > > > > > >       }
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we
> > > > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node
> > > > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of
> > > > > > > > a network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need
> > > > > > > > to be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not
> > > > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the
> > > > > > > > network-ref to be part of the key for supporting-node - we
> > > > > > > > would have to replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes
> > > > > > > > that reference either a server-provided network ("branch
> > > > > > > > 1"), or a configured network ("branch 2").  As a result, we
> > > > > > > > will have to introduce a separate way to reference elements
> in list supporting-node.
> > > > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity.
> > > > > > > > Or do you see an easier way?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that
> > > > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other
> > > > > > > config true nodes in the datastore where the node with the
> > > > > > > constraint exists. See section
> > > > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9
> > > > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe
> > > > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration
> and state data.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > /js
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> Germany
> > > > > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <
> http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I agree that adding meta-data will =
have no affect on</div><div>a client that thinks it can edit config=3Dtrue.=
=C2=A0 Especially</div><div>when the knob that overrides the semantics of t=
he config-stmt</div><div>is in the configuration itself.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>So why can&#39;t the interfaces + interfaces-state design be applied=
 here?</div><div>Given that charter explicitly states read-only topology, w=
hy is this</div><div>even in there?</div><div><br></div><div>You can define=
 objects in a grouping later.</div><div>It is OK to reorg objects into/out =
of groupings if the</div><div>same &quot;final&quot; syntax and semantics i=
s maintained.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 26, 201=
5 at 12:13 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_blank">j.schoenwaelder@j=
acobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>I do not think metadata changes the way configuration datastore<br>
validation works.<br>
<br>
/js<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 07:10:56PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Juergen,<br>
&gt; Understood, but this doesn&#39;t really address our problem here.=C2=
=A0 We want to see how we can apply YANG to meet our needs, not the other w=
ay round.=C2=A0 Hence the suggestion to explore the use of metadata here.<b=
r>
&gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@=
jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 11:19 AM<br>
&gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.com">alex@=
cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.=
com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.=
com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@g=
mail.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>; Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In YANG, it is assumed that config true nodes exist in a datastore whe=
re all config true nodes are treated the same. A datastore is the unit of v=
alidation and we don&#39;t want to have a valid configuration datatore beco=
me invalid arbitrarily. This is why config true nodes are not allowed to de=
pend on config false nodes (state data that can change arbitrarily).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; /js<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 01:15:55AM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex) wrote=
:<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Martin,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; maybe option 1 provides a way out here.=C2=A0 This also has the l=
east impact on the existing design and implementation, hence preferable.<br=
>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of th=
e YANG framework here.=C2=A0 I think we are dealing with a use case that wa=
s not really foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data =
that has instances that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server ver=
sus others representing more traditional configuration.=C2=A0 The one aspec=
t that not really address by making it regular config concerns your asserti=
on that &quot;any other client can modify what this client wrote&quot;.=C2=
=A0 Access rights could provide a solution, but not in the way as currently=
 defined via NACM, since we would need to differentiate access rights at th=
e instance level, not at the module definition level.=C2=A0 Rather than see=
ing how we can make our requirements somehow fit a rigid interpretation of =
the YANG framework (that does not allow for special treatment / behavior of=
 special cases), I would like to see whether the YANG framework can be flex=
ible enough to still support what we are trying to do.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the=
 interim, asking whether this would be an application for metadata.=C2=A0 I=
 think this is something that we might leverage here.=C2=A0 We could introd=
uce a metadata item that indicates for configuration information whether th=
at was populated by a server, so really should not be modified by other cli=
ents (or, when modified, will presumably be &quot;changed back&quot; by the=
 server).=C2=A0 Or, that might simply be locked by the server.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Thoughts regarding that suggestion?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">=
mbj@tail-f.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.com">=
alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenw=
aelder@jacobs-university.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy=
@yumaworks.com</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:shares@n=
dzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;Alexander Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cis=
co.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Martin,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; We can nitpick over how to best express this<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This isn&#39;t nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had=
 in mind.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; And it seems Juergen is correct.=C2=A0 You essentially want to mi=
x config and operational state in a single list.=C2=A0 This is not possible=
 to express in YANG, so you change the semantics of the formal statements w=
ith descriptions.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t think this a good idea.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don&#3=
9;t violate YANG:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 1)=C2=A0 Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provide=
d leaf,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and explain in text that there might be a clie=
nt<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;internal-to-the-server&quot; that behave=
s just like any other client<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(specifically respects locks, makes sure the e=
nd result is<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0valid, and any other client can modify what th=
is client wrote<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(module access rights)).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 2)=C2=A0 Split the model into two, one config list and one oper l=
ist.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0References in the config list can either be by=
 name (implicit) or<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the new YANG 1.1 syntax &quot;require-inst=
ance false&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; /martin<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; , but hopefully the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; general sense of what the requirement is and what I was tryi=
ng to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; express is clear.=C2=A0 You can have an outside client appli=
cation<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; maintain some topologies / list elements, and have others ma=
intained<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; an populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in =
the server.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; The difference from the &quot;normal&quot; client is that re=
ally it is that we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative own=
er of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the information.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cheers<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.=
com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.=
com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">j.sc=
hoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com"=
>andy@yumaworks.com</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sha=
res@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Alexander Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ale=
x@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Martin,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be=
 implemented,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and how is it supposed to be used?&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When a network topology is populated by the server, the=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change s=
omething<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it would behave as a normal client.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When a network topology is populated by a client app (t=
hrough<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;regular&quot; configuration), the server provided=
 leaf is supposed to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; be set to false.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; For any given network topology, when the corresponding<=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;server-provided&quot; leaf is set to &quot;true&q=
uot;, attempts to edit the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; configuration of that topology are to be rejected.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - &q=
uot;the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper a=
ccess<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; rights&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; /martin<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Alternatives to the current design include making the l=
eaf &quot;config<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; true&quot;, or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a=
 list that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; indicates for each topology whether it is server-provid=
ed or not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (in a separate &quot;state&quot; branch).<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@ta=
il-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alex@c=
isco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>;=
 <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de"=
>j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks=
.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail.com<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailt=
o:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)<=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Alexander Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Martin,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One model for the data that is server-provided is =
to assume an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; app (which could be embedded on the same server) t=
hat knows how<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to discover the network, then populates the data a=
ccordingly.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [Of course, we would not want any random client ap=
p just being<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; able to &quot;mess&quot; with that data.=C2=A0 The=
 expectation is generally<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; clearly access to this will be restricted / contro=
lled.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; topology instances that were populated by the &quo=
t;server-provided<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; app&quot; should not be &quot;touched&quot; by oth=
er apps - it is the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;server-provided&quot; app that is responsibl=
e for maintaining them.]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So I assume the answer to your question is &quot;y=
es&quot;, but with a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; bunch of caveats.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be imple=
mented, and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; how is it supposed to be used?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; /martin<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: i2rs [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:i2rs-bounces@=
ietf.org">i2rs-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Martin<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Bjorklund<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
lex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yum=
aworks.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-universit=
y.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@ni=
c.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akatlas@gmail=
.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>; <a href=3D"=
mailto:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10=
/14)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Alex,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Is the idea that the server-provided data is norma=
l config?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I.e., if the server wants to modify this data it b=
ehaves like a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; normal client?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (conceptually...)=C2=A0 And the server-provided da=
ta can be modified<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; by anyone with proper access rights?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; /martin<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;Alexander Clemm (alex)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Juergen,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think one of the key statements you make be=
low is this:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot; Recall also that YANG does not allow c=
onfiguration data to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; depend on state data.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Note that this is not the case in the current=
 model.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; current model is essentially all configuratio=
n data.=C2=A0 Of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; course, we have this flag to indicate who sup=
plied that data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (and is hence maintaining it).<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; You argue that we should instead &quot;split&=
quot; the model and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; introduce operational data to reflect what is=
 populated by the server.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; However, doing that introduces precisely new =
issues - and you<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; have just brought another argument why this m=
ay be a bad idea<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and may not even work.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be a=
ble to express<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that in the model.=C2=A0 Now, if we have a to=
pology that is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; server-provided, hence (per your statement) t=
o be represented<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; by operational data only, how do we build an =
overlay topology<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that is &quot;configured&quot; on top of it?=
=C2=A0 If the answer is &quot;we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; can&#39;t, unless we replicate the server-pro=
vided topology into<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the network configuration (which makes no sen=
se)&quot;, we are screwed.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Now, we might build it on top if we remove al=
l references /<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dependencies on the underlay from the model a=
nd punt the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; problem to the user.=C2=A0 Basically, no long=
er have the model<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; express vertical relationships.=C2=A0 Not a g=
ood solution, IMHO.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; How do you suggest we address this?=C2=A0 The=
 ability to express<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; layering relationships between topologies, in=
cluding cases<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; where topologies originate from different sou=
rces<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (discovered/server-provided vs configured), i=
s a requirement.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It is not an artefact of our model, it is som=
ething that we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; need to capture as part of the model.=C2=A0 T=
here may not be a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;nice&quot; way of doing this within the=
 YANG framework, yet it is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; important that we find a way to do this.=C2=
=A0 The current solution<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - having the model as configuration data, and=
 including a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; parameter to indicate who supplies the data a=
nd is maintaining<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - appears to be cleanest and clearest solutio=
n (or perhaps the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;least bad&quot;) that results in the mo=
del of least complexity.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Perhaps there is something we can simply chan=
ge about the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;server-provided&quot; object to address=
 your concerns?=C2=A0 We can<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; make it config (to address your issue that tr=
iggered this, the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; presence of a r/o object in a tree that is ot=
herwise r/w).<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thoughts?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jac=
obs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Ladislav Lhotka &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lho=
tka@nic.cz">lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ie=
tf.org</a>; Martin<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.co=
m">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;; Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumawork=
s.com">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &#39;Alia Atlas&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com">akat=
las@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@p=
frc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;; Susan<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com">=
shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 =
to 10/14)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Ale=
xander Clemm<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (alex)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hello Juergen,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; responses inline, delimited with &lt;ALE=
X&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --- Alex<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: Juergen Schoenwaelder<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelde=
r@jacobs-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 =
PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: Alexander Clemm (alex) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:alex@cisco.com">alex@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Cc: Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sh=
ares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;; Andy Bierman<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com=
">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.or=
g</a>; Martin Bjorklund<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mb=
j@tail-f.com</a>&gt;; Ladislav Lhotka &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lhotka@nic.cz">=
lhotka@nic.cz</a>&gt;; &#39;Alia Atlas&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com"=
>akatlas@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeffrey Haas&#39;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jh=
aas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (=
10/1 to 10/14)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000=
, Alexander Clemm<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (alex)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The only item in the topology that =
is read-only concerns<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the &quot;server-provided&quot; fla=
g, but this concerns a separate<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue that was also discussed (I am=
 not sure if this is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; what you are referring to).<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; It is analogous to the other discus=
sion concerning<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; distinguishing configuration that h=
as been intended,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; versus one that is in effect etc .=
=C2=A0 This concerns the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue that some topologies are popu=
lated by the server<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; whereas some topologies can be popu=
lated by client applications.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, this is what the concern is about.<=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We have had discussions in the past=
 whether to &quot;split this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; up&quot;, having a (rw) branch to p=
opulate &quot;intended&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; topologies and a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (ro) branch for topologies &quot;in=
 effect&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; This is the normal way to do this in YAN=
G. And this goes<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; back to what was driving us for years, n=
amely to clearly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; separate config from state. This module =
makes this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; distinction a runtime property controlle=
d by a data model<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; specific mechanism. None of the generic =
tools out there will be able to understand this.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think the issue is more related to the=
 current discussion<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; with regards to openconfig and &quot;int=
ended configuration&quot; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &quot;applied configuration&quot;.=C2=A0=
 If YANG had an existing solution<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for this, we would not have this discuss=
ion.=C2=A0 The reason I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; believe this is similar is that you can =
view the &quot;applied<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; configuration&quot; as the &quot;server-=
provided configuration&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (network topology, in our case), and the=
 &quot;intended<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; configuration&quot; as the, well, config=
ured or intended network<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; topology in our case.=C2=A0 That said, t=
he issue is not identical<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - whereas in the openconfig case every &=
quot;applied configuration&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; has an accompanying &quot;intended confi=
guration&quot;, in our case<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this is not necessarily the case<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; - you can have &quot;applied&quot; [netw=
ork topologies] that were<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provided by the server / the network its=
elf, not configured by anybody.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;/ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think this has nothing to do with intended =
or applied config.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Your &#39;server supplied topology&#39; appea=
rs to me to be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; operational state and not configuration data.=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We decided against it for various r=
easons - every piece of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; information would essentially be du=
plicated inside the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; model (this is not your normal conf=
ig vs oper data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; distinction, but would essentially =
reflect a limitation of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the framework), leading to unnecess=
ary additional<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; complexity in the model (every augm=
entation has to be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; conducted in two places), more comp=
lex validation rules, etc.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I do not understand why this is not a no=
rmal config vs oper<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; data distinction. Please explain.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; A normal distinction would be e.g. the t=
ype of model we have<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; in RFC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 7233 - separate trees with distinct data=
, some clearly part<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of configuration, other clearly operatio=
nal data.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In this case, this is different.=C2=A0 Y=
ou have the same data.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; However, in some cases it is populated b=
y a client, in other<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cases by the server.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; YANG requires the categorization of data=
 as config false or true.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In this case, this categorization does n=
ot always apply -<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; or, the categorization depends on the pa=
rticular instance.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;/ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So you have operational state which is partia=
lly populated by<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the server and partially populated from confi=
g. I fail to see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; how this is any different from other cases, i=
ncluding network<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall als=
o that YANG does<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not allow configuration data to depend on sta=
te data.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I do not understand how this leads to mo=
re complex validation rules.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please explain.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; One example concerns the supporting node=
s/links/TPs.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; We want to be able to express that, for =
example, a node in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; one network is supported by a node in an=
 underlay network.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; For this purpose, we are referencing a n=
ode in another (underlay) network.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So that we cannot reference an arbitrary=
 node in an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; arbitrary network, we want to make sure =
that the supporting<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; node is part of a &quot;supporting-netwo=
rk&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of the same network.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Currently, we have the following definit=
ion:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list supporting-node {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0key &qu=
ot;network-ref node-ref&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0descrip=
tion<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
&quot;Represents another node, in an underlay network, that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 this node is supported by.=C2=A0 Used to represent layering<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 structure.&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf ne=
twork-ref {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
type leafref {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0path &quot;../../../supporting-network/network-ref&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
}<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
description<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0&quot;References the underlay network that the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 underlay node is part of.&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf no=
de-ref {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
type leafref {<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0path &quot;/network/node/node-id&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
}<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
description<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0&quot;References the underlay node itself.&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; /<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If we were to split the model, when we c=
onfigure a node, we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; will have to account for the fact that t=
he supporting node<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; could be either part of a &quot;configur=
ed&quot; network itself, or of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a network that has been &quot;server-pro=
vided&quot;.=C2=A0 That is, we need<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to be able to allow for both possibiliti=
es.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Again note that YANG requires that configurat=
ion data does not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; depend on state data. You seem to be breaking=
 this rule, no?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To do this, we would no longer be able t=
o have the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; network-ref to be part of the key for su=
pporting-node - we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; would have to replace network-ref with a=
 choice of two nodes<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that reference either a server-provided =
network (&quot;branch<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 1&quot;), or a configured network (&quot=
;branch 2&quot;).=C2=A0 As a result, we<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; will have to introduce a separate way to=
 reference elements in list supporting-node.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; All of this results in considerable addi=
tional complexity.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Or do you see an easier way?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;/ALEX&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I do not think this is the solution. YANG req=
uires that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; constraints on config true nodes can only ref=
er to other<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; config true nodes in the datastore where the =
node with the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; constraint exists. See section<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leaf=
ref, section 9.9<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; says that a leafref may only point to configu=
ration. I believe<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this I-D is violating the distinction between=
 configuration and state data.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; /js<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; i2rs mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/i2rs</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; i2rs mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:i2rs@ietf.org">i2rs@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
2rs" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/i2rs</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U=
niversity Bremen gGmbH<br>
&gt; Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1=
 | 28759 Bremen | Germany<br>
&gt; Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;<a href=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a11c266503b89b0052306fcc9--


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Cc: "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Alex,=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 9:16 AM
> To: Martin Bjorklund
> Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org; Kent Watsen;
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz; akatlas@gmail.com;
> jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> maybe option 1 provides a way out here.  This also has the least impact o=
n the
> existing design and implementation, hence preferable.
>=20
> However, I still feel that we are dealing with a limitation of the YANG
> framework here.  I think we are dealing with a use case that was not real=
ly
> foreseen in the YANG design, i.e. that we might run into data that has in=
stances
> that can indeed be authoritatively owned by a server versus others repres=
enting
> more traditional configuration.  The one aspect that not really address b=
y
> making it regular config concerns your assertion that "any other client c=
an
> modify what this client wrote".  Access rights could provide a solution, =
but not
> in the way as currently defined via NACM, since we would need to differen=
tiate
> access rights at the instance level, not at the module definition level. =
 Rather
> than seeing how we can make our requirements somehow fit a rigid
> interpretation of the YANG framework (that does not allow for special
> treatment / behavior of special cases), I would like to see whether the Y=
ANG
> framework can be flexible enough to still support what we are trying to d=
o.

I'd agree that representation of the layered architecture of network topolo=
gy models/instances is different from traditional Yang models, thus we need=
 to explore the appropriate solution under the Yang framework.

> Kent made what I thought was a very interesting suggestion at the interim=
,
> asking whether this would be an application for metadata.  I think this i=
s
> something that we might leverage here.  We could introduce a metadata ite=
m
> that indicates for configuration information whether that was populated b=
y a
> server, so really should not be modified by other clients (or, when modif=
ied, will
> presumably be "changed back" by the server).  Or, that might simply be lo=
cked
> by the server.

Metadata seems like a possible mechanism as it can specify instance-specifi=
c data. If metadata is used to indicate whether the instance is server-prov=
ided or client-provided, one question is does an instance with annotation "=
server-provided" still belong to configuration datastore?

Best regards,
Jie

> Thoughts regarding that suggestion?
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 12:17 AM
> To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de;
> andy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org;
> shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > We can nitpick over how to best express this
>=20
> This isn't nitpicking; I am trying to understand what you had in mind.
>=20
> And it seems Juergen is correct.  You essentially want to mix config and
> operational state in a single list.  This is not possible to express in Y=
ANG, so you
> change the semantics of the formal statements with descriptions.  I don't=
 think
> this a good idea.
>=20
> I can think of two alternatives to the current design that don't violate =
YANG:
>=20
> 1)  Keep the single config true list, w/o the server-provided leaf,
>     and explain in text that there might be a client
>     "internal-to-the-server" that behaves just like any other client
>     (specifically respects locks, makes sure the end result is
>     valid, and any other client can modify what this client wrote
>     (module access rights)).
>=20
> 2)  Split the model into two, one config list and one oper list.
>     References in the config list can either be by name (implicit) or
>     use the new YANG 1.1 syntax "require-instance false";
>=20
>=20
> /martin
>=20
> > , but hopefully the
> > general sense of what the requirement is and what I was trying to
> > express is clear.  You can have an outside client application maintain
> > some topologies / list elements, and have others maintained an
> > populated by the server - or arguably an app embedded in the server.
> > The difference from the "normal" client is that really it is that we
> > want the server / embedded app that is the authoritative owner of the
> > information.
> >
> > Cheers
> > --- Alex
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:07 PM
> > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> >
> > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Martin,
> > >
> > > "So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and
> > > how is it supposed to be used?"
> > >
> > > When a network topology is populated by the server, the
> > > server-provided leaf is supposed to be set to true.
> >
> > But you earlier wrote that when the server wants to change something
> > it would behave as a normal client.
> >
> > > When a network topology is populated by a client app (through
> > > "regular" configuration), the server provided leaf is supposed to be
> > > set to false.
> > >
> > > For any given network topology, when the corresponding
> > > "server-provided" leaf is set to "true", attempts to edit the
> > > configuration of that topology are to be rejected.
> >
> > This also goes against what you acknowledged previously - "the
> > server-provided data can be modified by anyone with proper access
> > rights"
> >
> >
> > /martin
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Alternatives to the current design include making the leaf "config
> > > true", or moving it outside (just this leaf) for a list that
> > > indicates for each topology whether it is server-provided or not (in
> > > a separate "state" branch).
> > > --- Alex
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 1:27 PM
> > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; andy@yumaworks.com;
> > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > >
> > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >
> > > > One model for the data that is server-provided is to assume an app
> > > > (which could be embedded on the same server) that knows how to
> > > > discover the network, then populates the data accordingly.
> > > >
> > > > [Of course, we would not want any random client app just being
> > > > able to "mess" with that data.  The expectation is generally
> > > > clearly access to this will be restricted / controlled.  The
> > > > topology instances that were populated by the "server-provided
> > > > app" should not be "touched" by other apps - it is the
> > > > "server-provided" app that is responsible for maintaining them.]
> > > >
> > > > So I assume the answer to your question is "yes", but with a bunch
> > > > of caveats.
> > >
> > > So how is the server-provided leaf supposed to be implemented, and
> > > how is it supposed to be used?
> > >
> > >
> > > /martin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- Alex
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> > > > Bjorklund
> > > > Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:32 AM
> > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com; i2rs@ietf.org;
> > > > j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; lhotka@nic.cz;
> > > > akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > >
> > > > Alex,
> > > >
> > > > Is the idea that the server-provided data is normal config?  I.e.,
> > > > if the server wants to modify this data it behaves like a normal
> > > > client?
> > > > (conceptually...)  And the server-provided data can be modified by
> > > > anyone with proper access rights?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > /martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Alexander Clemm (alex)" <alex@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Juergen,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think one of the key statements you make below is this:
> > > > > " Recall also that YANG does not allow configuration data to
> > > > > depend on state data."
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that this is not the case in the current model.  The
> > > > > current model is essentially all configuration data.  Of course,
> > > > > we have this flag to indicate who supplied that data (and is
> > > > > hence maintaining it).
> > > > >
> > > > > You argue that we should instead "split" the model and introduce
> > > > > operational data to reflect what is populated by the server.
> > > > > However, doing that introduces precisely new issues - and you
> > > > > have just brought another argument why this may be a bad idea
> > > > > and may not even work.
> > > > > Topologies _are_ layered, and we need to be able to express that
> > > > > in the model.  Now, if we have a topology that is
> > > > > server-provided, hence (per your statement) to be represented by
> > > > > operational data only, how do we build an overlay topology that
> > > > > is "configured" on top of it?  If the answer is "we can't,
> > > > > unless we replicate the server-provided topology into the
> > > > > network configuration (which makes no sense)", we are screwed.
> > > > > Now, we might build it on top if we remove all references /
> > > > > dependencies on the underlay from the model and punt the problem
> > > > > to the user.  Basically, no longer have the model express
> > > > > vertical relationships.  Not a good solution, IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > How do you suggest we address this?  The ability to express
> > > > > layering relationships between topologies, including cases where
> > > > > topologies originate from different sources
> > > > > (discovered/server-provided vs configured), is a requirement.
> > > > > It is not an artefact of our model, it is something that we need
> > > > > to capture as part of the model.  There may not be a "nice" way
> > > > > of doing this within the YANG framework, yet it is important
> > > > > that we find a way to do this.  The current solution to this
> > > > > - having the model as configuration data, and including a
> > > > > parameter to indicate who supplies the data and is maintaining
> > > > > it
> > > > > - appears to be cleanest and clearest solution (or perhaps the
> > > > > "least bad") that results in the model of least complexity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps there is something we can simply change about the
> > > > > "server-provided" object to address your concerns?  We can make
> > > > > it config (to address your issue that triggered this, the
> > > > > presence of a r/o object in a tree that is otherwise r/w).
> > > > >
> > > > > Thoughts?
> > > > > --- Alex
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 3:13 AM
> > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > Cc: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin
> > > > > Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>;
> > > > > 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas' <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Susan
> > > > > Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:59:31PM +0000, Alexander Clemm (alex)
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hello Juergen,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > responses inline, delimited with <ALEX>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Alex
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > > > > [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 11:35 PM
> > > > > > To: Alexander Clemm (alex) <alex@cisco.com>
> > > > > > Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; Andy Bierman
> > > > > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; i2rs@ietf.org; Martin Bjorklund
> > > > > > <mbj@tail-f.com>; Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>; 'Alia Atlas'
> > > > > > <akatlas@gmail.com>; 'Jeffrey Haas'
> > > > > > <jhaas@pfrc.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Oct 09, 2015 at 09:55:19PM +0000, Alexander Clemm
> > > > > > (alex)
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The only item in the topology that is read-only concerns the
> > > > > > > "server-provided" flag, but this concerns a separate issue
> > > > > > > that was also discussed (I am not sure if this is what you
> > > > > > > are referring to).
> > > > > > > It is analogous to the other discussion concerning
> > > > > > > distinguishing configuration that has been intended, versus
> > > > > > > one that is in effect etc .  This concerns the issue that
> > > > > > > some topologies are populated by the server whereas some
> > > > > > > topologies can be populated by client applications.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, this is what the concern is about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have had discussions in the past whether to "split this
> > > > > > > up", having a (rw) branch to populate "intended" topologies
> > > > > > > and a
> > > > > > > (ro) branch for topologies "in effect".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is the normal way to do this in YANG. And this goes back
> > > > > > to what was driving us for years, namely to clearly separate
> > > > > > config from state. This module makes this distinction a
> > > > > > runtime property controlled by a data model specific
> > > > > > mechanism. None of the generic tools out there will be able to
> understand this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > I think the issue is more related to the current discussion
> > > > > > with regards to openconfig and "intended configuration" and
> > > > > > "applied configuration".  If YANG had an existing solution for
> > > > > > this, we would not have this discussion.  The reason I believe
> > > > > > this is similar is that you can view the "applied
> > > > > > configuration" as the "server-provided configuration" (network
> > > > > > topology, in our case), and the "intended configuration" as
> > > > > > the, well, configured or intended network topology in our
> > > > > > case.  That said, the issue is not identical
> > > > > > - whereas in the openconfig case every "applied configuration"
> > > > > > has an accompanying "intended configuration", in our case this
> > > > > > is not necessarily the case
> > > > > > - you can have "applied" [network topologies] that were
> > > > > > provided by the server / the network itself, not configured by =
anybody.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this has nothing to do with intended or applied config.
> > > > > Your 'server supplied topology' appears to me to be operational
> > > > > state and not configuration data.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > We decided against it for various reasons - every piece of
> > > > > > > information would essentially be duplicated inside the model
> > > > > > > (this is not your normal config vs oper data distinction,
> > > > > > > but would essentially reflect a limitation of the
> > > > > > > framework), leading to unnecessary additional complexity in
> > > > > > > the model (every augmentation has to be conducted in two
> > > > > > > places), more complex validation rules, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do not understand why this is not a normal config vs oper
> > > > > > data distinction. Please explain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > > A normal distinction would be e.g. the type of model we have
> > > > > > in RFC
> > > > > > 7233 - separate trees with distinct data, some clearly part of
> > > > > > configuration, other clearly operational data.
> > > > > > In this case, this is different.  You have the same data.
> > > > > > However, in some cases it is populated by a client, in other
> > > > > > cases by the server.
> > > > > > YANG requires the categorization of data as config false or tru=
e.
> > > > > > In this case, this categorization does not always apply - or,
> > > > > > the categorization depends on the particular instance.
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >
> > > > > So you have operational state which is partially populated by
> > > > > the server and partially populated from config. I fail to see
> > > > > how this is any different from other cases, including network
> > > > > interfaces as defined in RFC 7233. Recall also that YANG does
> > > > > not allow configuration data to depend on state data.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I do not understand how this leads to more complex validation r=
ules.
> > > > > > Please explain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <ALEX>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One example concerns the supporting nodes/links/TPs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We want to be able to express that, for example, a node in one
> > > > > > network is supported by a node in an underlay network.  For
> > > > > > this purpose, we are referencing a node in another (underlay) n=
etwork.
> > > > > > So that we cannot reference an arbitrary node in an arbitrary
> > > > > > network, we want to make sure that the supporting node is part
> > > > > > of a "supporting-network"
> > > > > > of the same network.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently, we have the following definition:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    list supporting-node {
> > > > > >         key "network-ref node-ref";
> > > > > >         description
> > > > > >           "Represents another node, in an underlay network, tha=
t
> > > > > >            this node is supported by.  Used to represent layeri=
ng
> > > > > >            structure.";
> > > > > >         leaf network-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "../../../supporting-network/network-ref";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay network that the
> > > > > >              underlay node is part of.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > >         leaf node-ref {
> > > > > >           type leafref {
> > > > > >             path "/network/node/node-id";
> > > > > >           }
> > > > > >           description
> > > > > >             "References the underlay node itself.";
> > > > > >         }
> > > > > /
> > > > > >       }
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we were to split the model, when we configure a node, we
> > > > > > will have to account for the fact that the supporting node
> > > > > > could be either part of a "configured" network itself, or of a
> > > > > > network that has been "server-provided".  That is, we need to
> > > > > > be able to allow for both possibilities.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again note that YANG requires that configuration data does not
> > > > > depend on state data. You seem to be breaking this rule, no?
> > > > >
> > > > > > To do this, we would no longer be able to have the network-ref
> > > > > > to be part of the key for supporting-node - we would have to
> > > > > > replace network-ref with a choice of two nodes that reference
> > > > > > either a server-provided network ("branch 1"), or a configured
> > > > > > network ("branch 2").  As a result, we will have to introduce
> > > > > > a separate way to reference elements in list supporting-node.
> > > > > > All of this results in considerable additional complexity.  Or
> > > > > > do you see an easier way?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > </ALEX>
> > > > >
> > > > > I do not think this is the solution. YANG requires that
> > > > > constraints on config true nodes can only refer to other config
> > > > > true nodes in the datastore where the node with the constraint
> > > > > exists. See section
> > > > > 7.5.3 and section 7.19.5. And concerning leafref, section 9.9
> > > > > says that a leafref may only point to configuration. I believe
> > > > > this I-D is violating the distinction between configuration and s=
tate data.
> > > > >
> > > > > /js
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> Germany
> > > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/=
>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > i2rs mailing list
> > > > i2rs@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs
> > > >
> > >
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> i2rs mailing list
> i2rs@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2rs


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From: Gert Grammel <ggrammel@juniper.net>
To: Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com>
Thread-Topic: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Cc: "i2rs@ietf.org" <i2rs@ietf.org>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "Alexander Clemm \(alex\)" <alex@cisco.com>, "j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "andy@yumaworks.com" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "lhotka@nic.cz" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "akatlas@gmail.com" <akatlas@gmail.com>, "shares@ndzh.com" <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
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Hi Igor,

It would be advisable to let the client decide whether a different underlay=
 shall invalidate the intended config.=20

Best

Gert

Sent from my Apple ][

> On 23 Oct 2015, at 15:00, Igor Bryskin <IBryskin@advaoptical.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> It is possible that a user configures a link of a customized (user define=
d) topology providing also the path defined in underlay server defined topo=
logy. Said underlay path needs to be considered as intended configuration. =
Actual underlay path will be state data in this case ( personally I also do=
 not see a difference between state and server provided data), which may or=
 may not match the intended underlay path. The actual underlay path may als=
o change over time due, for example, network failure restoration procedures=
 affecting the underlay topology.
> The link of the user defined topology is not invalidated in this case. Us=
er just has to deal with the fact that the intended configuration may not n=
ecessarily match the actual configuration and state data.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Igor
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: i2rs [mailto:i2rs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm (a=
lex)
> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 8:12 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
> Cc: lhotka@nic.cz; i2rs@ietf.org; j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; a=
ndy@yumaworks.com; akatlas@gmail.com; jhaas@pfrc.org; shares@ndzh.com
> Subject: Re: [i2rs] WG LC for Topology (10/1 to 10/14)
>=20
> Hi Martin,
>=20
> Agree, we need to add text for this.  Good catch. =20
>=20
> The reality is that the integrity of the links between overlay and underl=
ay will be broken.  The fact that those links will be invalidated is someth=
ing that ultimately needs to be indicated. =20
>=20
> Since the interface analogy was brought up, this problem is actually face=
d by layered interfaces that are user controlled as as well.  What is the s=
olution that is applied there?  (I guess it is basically left up to the app=
lication, correct?)
>=20
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Bjorklund [mailto:mbj@tail-f.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 11:04 PM
>=20
> .....
>=20
>=20
> What happens in your model if a user-defined network has a reference to a=
 server-provided network, and the sever decides to remove its network?  I s=
ee no special text in your document about this case.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20
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