From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Feb 12 20:11:01 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29684 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ArRqi-0000Kn-HQ for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:10:32 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1D1AWDt001279 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:10:32 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ArRqi-0000KY-BJ for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:10:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29665 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRqe-0006UP-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:10:28 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRpn-0006Pz-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:09:35 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRpC-0006LH-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:08:58 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ArRpF-0000Hb-Dc; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:09:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1ArRoX-0008TK-99 for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:08:17 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA29487 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRoT-0006CE-00 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:08:13 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRnG-0005yK-00 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:06:59 -0500 Received: from ns.execdsl.net ([208.184.15.238] helo=EXECDSL.COM) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1ArRlo-0005d4-00 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:05:28 -0500 Received: from [66.95.38.74] (HELO JLaptop.stevecrocker.com) by EXECDSL.COM (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3) with ESMTP id 6194589 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:05:25 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040212195919.01999630@localhost> X-Sender: joel@stevecrocker.com@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:05:24 -0500 To: icar@ietf.org From: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <200402112150.QAA29648@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 As you can see, we are now officially a working group. Harald has already requested a time slot (Wednesday morning) for us. Mark and I will be working on getting a suitable set of supporting tools (web page, issues tracker) in place so that folks can tell what is going on. We will also be announcing a simple naming convention for tracking documents of interest to the working group. (We just need a day or so to make sure we are both thinking of the same convention.) Meanwhile, we are trying to plan the agenda. Folks who would like to present issues or ideas for discussion (not just a presentation of a draft, preferably presentation of issues and aspects of ideas that of come up on the list, to be followed by discussion with the room) should send email to the list or to me and Mark. Yours, Joel M. Halpern PS: Mark will unfortunately not be able to be at the session in Korea, so Alex Zinin who has been at the middle of making this happen will help me run the meeting there. PPS: We will need a note taker. This session really can not happen without minutes. If you are willing to do so, please contact me. At 04:50 PM 2/11/2004 -0500, you wrote: >A new IETF working group has been formed in the General Area. >For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG >Chairs. > >Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) >--------------------------------- > > Current Status: Active Working Group > > Chairs: > Joel M Halpern > Mark Allman > > General Area Director(s): > Harald Alvestrand > > General Area Advisor: > Harald Alvestrand > > Mailing list: icar@ietf.org > Subscription: icar-request@ietf.org > Archives : > https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/icar/current/maillist.html > > WG Description: > > The WG will work out mechanisms for improved cross-functional > review within the IETF, addressing the issues identified by the > PROBLEM WG. This includes a better community review, as well as > more structured pre-IESG review that may be used to improve > scalability of the IESG review function. > > Definitions: > > o Cross-functional review: document review covering different > aspects of Internet technology, including those represented by > WGs within different IETF areas. > > o Community review: document review performed by individual IETF > participants and not caused by their responsibilities within > the IETF management structure. > > o Structured review: more formal and role-based document review > performed by individuals assuming certain responsibilities (such > as by WG chairs, directorate and IESG members.) > > It is an explicit goal of the WG to come up with mechanisms > encouraging early review of the documents while ideas are still > in the formation stage. An early review is best for catching > architectural problems while they're still relatively easy to > solve. In particular, many cross-functional interactions can be > spotted and dealt with, thus avoiding many "late surprises". A > final review (currently done by the IESG) can catch remaining > cross-functional interactions, as well as deal with overall > quality issues. > > The WG will cooperate with others in starting and evaluating > experiments with early community and structured reviews. The > evaluation of such experiments may be published as Informational > RFCs if the group so desires. > > The WG will also coordinate with other WGs involved in the IETF > reform process on proposed changes to the IETF Working Group > operations and Standards process if those are considered > necessary. > > WG milestones: > > FEB 2004: Publish Internet Drafts on improved community and > structured reviews > SEP 2004: Submit draft on improved community review to > the IESG for publication as BCP > SEP 2004: Submit draft on improved structured review to > the IESG for publication as BCP > JAN 2005: Evaluate WG progress and potential; close or recharter _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Feb 16 13:46:05 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11036 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AsnkO-00053d-8j for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:37 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1GIja7c019435 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AsnkO-00053O-0R for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:36 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11027 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AsnkL-00012b-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:33 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AsnjS-0000zC-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:44:38 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Asnir-0000vY-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:44:01 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Asnir-0004l7-H3; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:44:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AsniM-0004ia-JP for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:43:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10954 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AsniK-0000tv-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:43:28 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AsnhL-0000qj-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:42:28 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net ([68.76.113.50] helo=guns.icir.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AsngT-0000kq-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:41:33 -0500 Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8E577A6DD; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:41:02 -0500 (EST) To: icar@ietf.org Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" From: Mark Allman Reply-To: mallman@icir.org Subject: Re: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040212195919.01999630@localhost> Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Sweet Home Alabama Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:41:02 -0500 Message-Id: <20040216184102.0F8E577A6DD@guns.icir.org> Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Joel said: > Meanwhile, we are trying to plan the agenda. Folks who would like to > present issues or ideas for discussion (not just a presentation of a > draft, preferably presentation of issues and aspects of ideas that of > come up on the list, to be followed by discussion with the room) > should send email to the list or to me and Mark. I'd like to make the above call for agenda items again. **And**, can anyone who has an i-d they believe is in the ICAR space please send me a note? I want to try to get all relavent stuff collected up and I'd like to make sure I don't overlook anything. Thanks! allman -- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Feb 16 18:59:09 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13832 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AssdN-0000yr-HT for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:58:44 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1GNwftL003763 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:58:41 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AssdN-0000yc-Bn for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:58:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13783 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AssdK-0006Sw-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:58:38 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AsscR-0006OV-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:57:43 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Assbj-0006Jb-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:56:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Assbl-0000pg-SC; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:57:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Assaz-0000nB-QE for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:56:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA13546 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Assaw-0006Cw-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:56:10 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1Assa8-00064R-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:55:20 -0500 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AssZF-0005ow-00 for icar@ietf.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:54:25 -0500 Received: from halvestr-w2k1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136A861BDC; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 00:53:54 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:20:18 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: mallman@icir.org, icar@ietf.org Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) Message-ID: <192333100.1076941218@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20040216184102.0F8E577A6DD@guns.icir.org> References: <20040216184102.0F8E577A6DD@guns.icir.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 16. februar 2004 13:41 -0500 Mark Allman wrote: > Joel said: >> Meanwhile, we are trying to plan the agenda. Folks who would like to >> present issues or ideas for discussion (not just a presentation of a >> draft, preferably presentation of issues and aspects of ideas that of >> come up on the list, to be followed by discussion with the room) >> should send email to the list or to me and Mark. > > I'd like to make the above call for agenda items again. > > **And**, can anyone who has an i-d they believe is in the ICAR space > please send me a note? I want to try to get all relavent stuff > collected up and I'd like to make sure I don't overlook anything. Mark, I believe that section 4.2 of draft-iesg-alvestrand-twolevel is still relevant to the discussion - the concept of having a late, structured review done by pre-established, cross-area teams. The part about having these teams make the final decision on approval is out of scope for ICAR. I managed to get as far as *thinking* about pulling that out into a separate draft before the I-D deadline, but that was as far as I got. Harald _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Feb 17 05:54:25 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23146 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At2rV-0007E8-Nz for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:53:58 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1HArv0R027776 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:53:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At2rV-0007Dv-IW for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:53:57 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23101 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At2rR-0005Bv-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:53:54 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1At2qU-00056z-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:52:55 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At2pa-00052g-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:51:58 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At2pd-00079M-3L; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:52:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At2pb-00078v-Jp for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:51:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22994 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At2pY-00052J-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:51:56 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1At2oc-0004yU-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:50:58 -0500 Received: from hoemail2.lucent.com ([192.11.226.163] helo=hoemail2.firewall.lucent.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At2nk-0004t9-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:50:04 -0500 Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by hoemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id i1HAnWr14916 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:49:32 -0600 (CST) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <16980NK8>; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:49:30 +0100 Message-ID: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B155039627E2@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , icar@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:49:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 > Meanwhile, we are trying to plan the agenda. Folks who would like to > present issues or ideas for discussion (not just a presentation of a draft, > preferably presentation of issues and aspects of ideas that of come up on > the list, to be followed by discussion with the room) should send email to > the list or to me and Mark. > Although the ICAR session seems to conflict with another WG I want/must be, I should be able to find some time to report on the experience we have with MIB Doctor review and do some discussion with the WG members as to what works and does not work (both from the MIB Doctor viewpoint, the AD viewpoint, and hopefully also from the other WGs and editors viewpoints). The relevant document is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ops-mib-review-guidelines-02.txt Bert > Yours, > Joel M. Halpern _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Feb 17 08:02:32 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA26010 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At4rT-0005y5-IS for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:03 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1HD23YU022941 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At4rT-0005xw-BW for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:03 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA25984 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At4rS-00049s-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:02:02 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1At4qV-00046Y-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:01:04 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At4pY-00043x-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:00:04 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At4pX-0005tU-I6; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:00:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1At4oc-0005rT-AR for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:59:06 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA25928 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At4ob-00040f-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:59:05 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1At4ne-0003yC-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:58:07 -0500 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.202.55]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1At4nM-0003uy-00 for icar@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:57:48 -0500 Received: from dfnjgl21 (c-24-1-97-129.client.comcast.net[24.1.97.129]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004021712571801100rubome> (Authid: sdawkins@comcast.net); Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: <01e401c3f555$93ca9ba0$0400a8c0@DFNJGL21> Reply-To: "Spencer Dawkins" From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: References: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B155039627E2@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> Subject: Re: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 06:57:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also have an ICAR conflict, but now feel worse about missing ICAR if the the ICAR session will contain lessons from experience instead of philosophy! ... and I also wanted to thank the MIB doctor team for writing this stuff down - an excellent example that many of us, including me, can learn from... Speencer From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" ; Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 4:49 AM Subject: RE: [Icar] Re: WG Action: Improved Cross-Area Review (icar) > > Although the ICAR session seems to conflict with another WG I want/must be, > I should be able to find some time to report on the experience we have > with MIB Doctor review and do some discussion with the WG members as > to what works and does not work (both from the MIB Doctor viewpoint, the > AD viewpoint, and hopefully also from the other WGs and editors viewpoints). > > The relevant document is: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ops-mib-review-guidelines-02.txt > > Bert _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Feb 18 16:26:08 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22383 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AtZCO-0007m8-AD for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:25:40 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i1ILPetr029882 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:25:40 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AtZCO-0007lt-4U for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:25:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22367 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZCM-0001cz-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:25:38 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZBV-0001av-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:24:46 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZAm-0001YW-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:24:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AtZAm-0007YF-W6; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:24:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AtZ9y-0007UD-JV for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:23:10 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA22188 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZ9w-0001TP-00 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:23:08 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZ90-0001Kf-00 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:22:11 -0500 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AtZ7g-00011p-00 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:20:49 -0500 Received: from halvestr-w2k1 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3843661E97 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:20:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:20:17 -0800 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: icar@ietf.org Message-ID: <361528079.1077110417@[192.168.1.43]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Icar] An example for ICAR Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One example of a review guideline for late, structured reviews specialized for the General area (it's quite new, but has at least resulted in 6 published reviews so far): http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/review-guidelines.html Harald _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Feb 29 23:35:52 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01164 for ; 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Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:34:30 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Axf7w-0004Uf-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:34:00 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Axf7w-0007R5-SW; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:34:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Axf7M-0007Oy-Su for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:33:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00965 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Axf7K-0004SY-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:33:23 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1Axf6Q-0004N8-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:32:26 -0500 Received: from adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net ([68.76.113.50] helo=guns.icir.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Axf5i-0004CW-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:31:42 -0500 Received: from lawyers.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA4977AA26 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lawyers.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lawyers.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5700010D065 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:58:11 -0500 (EST) To: icar@ietf.org From: Mark Allman Reply-To: mallman@icir.org Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: My City of Ruin Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:58:11 -0500 Message-Id: <20040301035811.5700010D065@lawyers.icir.org> Subject: [Icar] agenda Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Hi folks! Sorry for being so late with the agenda. I got completely snowed late last week and this just fell on the floor.... which is not a good excuse, but is really all I have. I am very sorry. The following is a very rough list of the sorts of things that will be talked about in ICAR this week. Please feel free to agenda bash. I believe Joel will be doing a hefty amount of that this week before the meeting (I will not be there, unfortunately). So, consider this only a rough guess. ICAR DRAFTY AGENDA The WG meeting will tackle the following questions: (1) What constitutes a good review (number of reviews? skill set of reviewers? focus? depth? breadth?)? (2) What should an early review mechanism look like? draft-carpenter-solutions-sirs-02.txt draft-allman-problem-wg-revcomm-00.txt draft-ietf-ops-mib-review-guidelines-02.txt (3) What incentives can the organization put into place to encourage early review (both soliciting reviews and providing reviews)? Do we need incentive? (4) What structures make sense of providing off-loading late / quasi-formal reviews? What properties should such a structure have? draft-zinin-early-review-00.txt draft-iesg-alvestrand-twolevel (section 4.2) allman -- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Feb 29 23:51:05 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA02069 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AxfO0-00017n-1Q for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:50:38 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i214oaFr004322 for icar-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:50:36 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AxfNz-00017d-U9 for icar-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:50:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA02060 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfNx-0006DZ-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:50:33 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfN1-00067Q-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:49:36 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfMR-00061b-00 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:48:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AxfMT-0000yr-7n; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:49:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AxfM3-0000xN-7R for icar@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:48:35 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01988 for ; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfM1-0005zx-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:48:33 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfL4-0005v4-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:47:35 -0500 Received: from ns.execdsl.net ([208.184.15.238] helo=EXECDSL.COM) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AxfKc-0005pe-00 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:47:06 -0500 Received: from [218.37.227.88] (HELO JLaptop.stevecrocker.com) by EXECDSL.COM (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3) with ESMTP id 6674131 for icar@ietf.org; Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:47:06 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040229234325.01a25d98@localhost> X-Sender: joel@stevecrocker.com@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:46:51 -0500 To: icar@ietf.org From: "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [Icar] agenda In-Reply-To: <20040301035811.5700010D065@lawyers.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: icar-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 There are a couple of short items we know of that we are trying to schedule in as well. All of them fall into the general item of "Existing experience". Existing Experience: SIRS lessons MIB Doctors lessons (Bert Wijnen) Security Directorate experience (Steve Bellovin) I have received some private feedback about SIRS that I would like to get to the group, but I am still looking for someone to start off a discussion on it. Yours, Joel M. Halpern PS: We still need someone to take minutes. PLEASE. At 10:58 PM 2/29/2004 -0500, Mark Allman wrote: > >Hi folks! > >Sorry for being so late with the agenda. I got completely snowed late >last week and this just fell on the floor.... which is not a good >excuse, but is really all I have. I am very sorry. > >The following is a very rough list of the sorts of things that will be >talked about in ICAR this week. Please feel free to agenda bash. I >believe Joel will be doing a hefty amount of that this week before the >meeting (I will not be there, unfortunately). So, consider this only a >rough guess. > >ICAR DRAFTY AGENDA > >The WG meeting will tackle the following questions: > >(1) What constitutes a good review (number of reviews? skill set of > reviewers? focus? depth? breadth?)? > >(2) What should an early review mechanism look like? > > draft-carpenter-solutions-sirs-02.txt > draft-allman-problem-wg-revcomm-00.txt > draft-ietf-ops-mib-review-guidelines-02.txt > >(3) What incentives can the organization put into place to encourage > early review (both soliciting reviews and providing reviews)? Do we > need incentive? > >(4) What structures make sense of providing off-loading late / > quasi-formal reviews? What properties should such a structure have? > > draft-zinin-early-review-00.txt > draft-iesg-alvestrand-twolevel (section 4.2) > >allman > > >-- >Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ > >_______________________________________________ >Icar mailing list >Icar@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar