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Passwords for icar-web-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- icar@ietf.org duicez https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/icar/icar-web-archive%40ietf.org From icar-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 13:38:54 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA18253 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHnGQ-0001MN-41 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:50:15 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHmwH-0007rP-RA; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:29:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHmp7-0006Iy-Oi for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:22:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17208 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHn06-00014m-6p for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:33:23 -0400 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i9DHLuag067573 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallman@guns.icir.org) Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9291677AE41 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:21:54 -0400 (EDT) To: icar@ietf.org From: Mark Allman Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Peaches MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:21:54 -0400 Message-Id: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Subject: [Icar] icar futures? X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0420153608==" Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 --===============0420153608== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Folks- From=20my seat, this is what I have observed: * there has been no list traffic * there has not been any updating of the early review i-d * there has been no clamoring for late review guidance * the call for reviewers for the ICAR experiment netted 7 reviewers + plus 1 who said "ok", but never got back to me with his information; plus another who said "as soon as I qualify" + and, even some of the most vocal advocates of early review didn't belly up when the time to do so came around * the IESG did not enthusiastically offer assistance with choosing WGs to help seed the process This doesn't look like a lovely picture to me. This really smells like ICAR is something the community does not want. Or, at least does not want to put their energy into, in practice. Joel and I would appreciate any thoughts on moving forward (and, saying "ok, it didn't work" **is** a path forward). Thoughts? Thanks, allman =2D- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBbWQyWyrrWs4yIs4RAl0dAJ0cUdPKDuU9DM0T7t6bqWMFy8hXJgCfbmIo LwbuFTllTTQKyNFceF5jLgA= =vX+i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --===============0420153608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar --===============0420153608==-- From icar-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 14:52:10 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23719 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoPK-0002mQ-UU for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:03:32 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHo91-0007yP-Ba; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:46:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHo4a-0006iU-R1 for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:42:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23085 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoFa-0002ar-Ma for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:53:27 -0400 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2004 11:50:29 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-171-71-193-217.cisco.com [171.71.193.217]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id i9DIfTOE016485; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cisco.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:41:31 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:41:30 -0400 From: Scott W Brim To: Mark Allman Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? Message-ID: <20041013184130.GC1128@sbrim-w2k01> Mail-Followup-To: Scott W Brim , Mark Allman , icar@ietf.org References: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1307427210==" Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca --===============1307427210== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CdrF4e02JqNVZeln" Content-Disposition: inline --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Oct 13, 2004 01:21:54PM -0400, Mark Allman allegedly wrote: > This doesn't look like a lovely picture to me. This really smells > like ICAR is something the community does not want. Or, at least does > not want to put their energy into, in practice. Joel and I would > appreciate any thoughts on moving forward (and, saying "ok, it didn't > work" **is** a path forward). I still think it's the right idea, I think people are just busy. Let's poll the wg-chairs and see where they stand. We don't need the IESG, we can find an initial set of WGs ourselves, eh? swb --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Cygwin) iD8DBQFBbXbZF0TR2hENFAQRApJvAKCHsaKHi58JQciLHhKPEJWRvwN+eACeP/Pt h1iV1qTvHtqS1RjcL5pjX0c= =fO7h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CdrF4e02JqNVZeln-- --===============1307427210== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar --===============1307427210==-- From icar-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 14:57:18 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23914 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoUJ-0002qm-8o for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:08:40 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHoBp-0008Ma-7L; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:49:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHo7A-0007U1-7e for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:44:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23353 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoI7-0002eQ-G4 for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:56:06 -0400 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i9DIidag068432 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallman@guns.icir.org) Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5143677A6E0 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:44:38 -0400 (EDT) To: icar@ietf.org From: Mark Allman Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Peaches MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:44:38 -0400 Message-Id: <20041013184438.5143677A6E0@guns.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [Icar] Re: icar futures? X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1184634135==" Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 --===============1184634135== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain > * the call for reviewers for the ICAR experiment netted 7 reviewers > > + plus 1 who said "ok", but never got back to me with his > information; plus another who said "as soon as I qualify" > + and, even some of the most vocal advocates of early review didn't > belly up when the time to do so came around I should have noted here that I asked the following mailing lists for reviewer help: ietf@ietf.org SIRS icar@ietf.org wgchairs@ietf.org allman --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBbXeWWyrrWs4yIs4RArKaAKCAkFflLBTA1ixChAKSq14d6BoSogCfYhel X+htRf2KSe22J5Xo1YOz6V8= =JNu/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --===============1184634135== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar --===============1184634135==-- From icar-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 13 15:07:48 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25473 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoeU-00038g-F4 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:19:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHoJo-0001UX-0z; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:57:48 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHoD5-000087-1j for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:50:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23668 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHoO5-0002lQ-Bf for icar@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 15:02:13 -0400 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i9DIogag068509; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallman@guns.icir.org) Received: from guns.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A970477A6E0; Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:50:40 -0400 (EDT) To: Scott W Brim From: Mark Allman Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? In-Reply-To: <20041013184130.GC1128@sbrim-w2k01> Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Peaches MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:50:40 -0400 Message-Id: <20041013185040.A970477A6E0@guns.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1574161006==" Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d --===============1574161006== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Scott- (our first volunteer reviewer, btw; thanks!) > I still think it's the right idea, I think people are just busy. > Let's poll the wg-chairs and see where they stand. We don't need the > IESG, we can find an initial set of WGs ourselves, eh? Let me play the devil's advocate here... * "people are just busy" I agree. I are such a people. But, if we have to twist people's arms to get them to volunteer to be reviewers, what indication do we have that they will actually do reviews? I know a lot of people whom I could likely cajole onto the list of reviewers, howwver, it is not clear to me that such a path is really the right model. * "we don't need the IESG" I agree that we do not need this bit of help from the IESG to get things started. I think the broader issue here is that the IESG is not enthusiastic about ICAR early review. Is it reasonable to hope to see this sort of thing widely used without some support from the IESG? (Maybe it is... but, I'd like to hear someone argue the point.) On the "poll the wg-chairs" part, I am not sure what you mean. I did attempt to solicit reviewers from the WG chair mailing list. allman -- Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFBbXkAWyrrWs4yIs4RAsN0AJkBFFBEYLSU2dLUhLupdVDd84OkWgCff/5h HGb9Zp6xuo/AHzrTDpy92aY= =NkHm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --===============1574161006== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar --===============1574161006==-- From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 00:56:25 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA19190 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHxqD-0000ct-Sz for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:07:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHxdn-0005Cf-IY; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:55:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CHxXr-0004C1-Uh for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:48:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA17563 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 00:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netcore.fi ([193.94.160.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CHxix-0000RJ-9o for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:00:23 -0400 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i9E4lpg28173; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:47:51 +0300 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:47:51 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Mark Allman Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? In-Reply-To: <20041013185040.A970477A6E0@guns.icir.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: Scott W Brim , icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Mark Allman wrote: > * "we don't need the IESG" > > I agree that we do not need this bit of help from the IESG to get > things started. I think the broader issue here is that the IESG is > not enthusiastic about ICAR early review. Is it reasonable to hope > to see this sort of thing widely used without some support from the > IESG? (Maybe it is... but, I'd like to hear someone argue the > point.) The IESG is crucial for this to work. I'd suggest you ping IESG, through Harald if necessary about this. One could ask that each AD tries to list 3-4 persons capable of ICAR reviews they know of, and either the AD or you approach these persons 1-on-1, soliciting help. Remember, the fundamental problem is that broadcast don't work... you'll have to approach the people the right way ("you were recommended as a good reviewer, and we need YOUR help...").. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 06:21:15 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA26250 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI2ue-0006PE-QR for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:32:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI2iZ-00072I-MY; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:20:19 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI2fk-00067b-4n for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:17:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA26081 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtagate2.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.135]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI2qp-0006Lh-H7 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:28:55 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.129]) by mtagate2.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9EAGjGH192202; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:16:45 GMT Received: from mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com (d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.228]) by d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id i9EAGjoe141690; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:16:45 +0100 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com) by mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CI2f7-0000OP-00; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:16:45 +0100 Received: from [9.20.136.27] (helo=sp15en17.hursley.ibm.com) by mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CI2f6-0000OK-00; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:16:44 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-231-211.de.ibm.com [9.145.231.211]) by sp15en17.hursley.ibm.com (AIX5.1/8.11.6p2/8.11.0) with SMTP id i9EAGia541798; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:16:44 +0100 Message-ID: <416E5208.1070903@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:16:40 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mallman@icir.org Subject: My excuse, and a suggestion [Re: [Icar] icar futures?] References: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> In-Reply-To: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let me explain why I didn't volunteer. 1. Too busy in the last few weeks to think seriously about it. 2. Additionally, as a member of Harald's General Area review team, I get a few reviews to do every two weeks, plus I spontaneously review a couple of IDs a week in my areas of interest. So (if I had found time to think about it), I'm pretty sure I would have concluded I have no spare capacity. Am I unusual among the people on this list? I don't think so. Rather than giving up, I think this WG should orchestrate a recruiting drive during the November IETF. Set up a desk in the registration area, hang a poster, arrange for volunteers to staff the desk and sign people on. (And of course, send another solicitation to ietf@ietf.org just before the meeting, telling people they will have a final chance to help.) If that fails, go to end of file. Brian - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM Mark Allman wrote: > > Folks- > > From my seat, this is what I have observed: > > * there has been no list traffic > > * there has not been any updating of the early review i-d > > * there has been no clamoring for late review guidance > > * the call for reviewers for the ICAR experiment netted 7 reviewers > > + plus 1 who said "ok", but never got back to me with his > information; plus another who said "as soon as I qualify" > + and, even some of the most vocal advocates of early review didn't > belly up when the time to do so came around > > * the IESG did not enthusiastically offer assistance with choosing WGs > to help seed the process > > This doesn't look like a lovely picture to me. This really smells like > ICAR is something the community does not want. Or, at least does not > want to put their energy into, in practice. Joel and I would appreciate > any thoughts on moving forward (and, saying "ok, it didn't work" **is** > a path forward). > > Thoughts? > > Thanks, > allman > > > -- > Mark Allman -- ICIR -- http://www.icir.org/mallman/ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Icar mailing list > Icar@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 08:00:40 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA06314 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI4Sr-00008L-0S for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:12:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI46D-00010L-1U; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:48:49 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI42V-0008Uw-8n for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:44:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA04929 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wyvern.icir.org ([192.150.187.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI4Dd-00085Y-Ou for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:56:31 -0400 Received: from guns.icir.org (adsl-68-76-113-50.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net [68.76.113.50]) by wyvern.icir.org (8.12.9p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i9EBijag078605; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:44:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallman@icir.org) Received: from lawyers.icir.org (guns.icir.org [68.76.113.50]) by guns.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F93077AA2A; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lawyers.icir.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lawyers.icir.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CAB1EBB79; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:37:59 -0400 (EDT) To: Pekka Savola From: Mark Allman Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? In-Reply-To: Organization: ICSI Center for Internet Research (ICIR) Song-of-the-Day: Peaches MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:37:58 -0400 Message-Id: <20041014113759.10CAB1EBB79@lawyers.icir.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: Scott W Brim , icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: mallman@icir.org List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2108225588==" Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a --===============2108225588== Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain > On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Mark Allman wrote: > > * "we don't need the IESG" > > > > I agree that we do not need this bit of help from the IESG to get > > things started. I think the broader issue here is that the IESG is > > not enthusiastic about ICAR early review. Is it reasonable to hope > > to see this sort of thing widely used without some support from the > > IESG? (Maybe it is... but, I'd like to hear someone argue the > > point.) > > The IESG is crucial for this to work. I'd suggest you ping IESG, > through Harald if necessary about this. > > One could ask that each AD tries to list 3-4 persons capable of ICAR > reviews they know of, and either the AD or you approach these persons > 1-on-1, soliciting help. We pitched this idea to Harald before the last IETF meeting as a way to seed the pool. His response in the meeting, as I recall, was that he didn't think the IESG was up for this. Rather, he thought they'd help by picking some WGs. That did not happen. Maybe Harald has a comment to insert here or would like to try again. > Remember, the fundamental problem is that broadcast don't work... > you'll have to approach the people the right way ("you were > recommended as a good reviewer, and we need YOUR help...").. I agree with that fundemental problem. On the flip side, I worry that while leaning on people to "volunteer" may produce a longer list of reviewers, that does not necessarily yield a useful pool at the end of the day. It doesn't even take the IESG to get names. I bet I could add a bunch of names to the list without too much effort. And, I bet there are others who could, as well. The fundemental question in my mind is whether this is a useful approach or not. allman --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (Darwin) iD8DBQFBbmUWWyrrWs4yIs4RAqquAJ9r6PDgK4n+k8Gtcfkg1LsluNtE7ACbBIYM R2PL6B6oFmvUifuKftQKiu4= =ILBW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- --===============2108225588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar --===============2108225588==-- From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 11:21:19 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA29580 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI7b4-0004Zx-5q for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:32:55 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI7Oi-0004f2-1c; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:20:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI7Bx-0001OS-JB for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:06:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28210 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail75.messagelabs.com ([216.82.255.83]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI7Mv-0004IY-4P for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:18:17 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: rsnively@Brocade.COM X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-75.messagelabs.com!1097766370!12903548 X-StarScan-Version: 5.2.10; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [66.243.153.112] Received: (qmail 24836 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2004 15:06:10 -0000 Received: from f112.brocade.com (HELO discus.brocade.com) (66.243.153.112) by server-4.tower-75.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 14 Oct 2004 15:06:10 -0000 Received: from hq-ex-4.corp.brocade.com (hq-ex-4 [192.168.38.93]) by discus.brocade.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14111F326A; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hq-ex-6.corp.brocade.com ([192.168.38.36]) by hq-ex-4.corp.brocade.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:06:09 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Icar] icar futures? Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:06:09 -0700 Message-ID: <66CFE0CA1DDEB54493E63A2C7C52924608CE52@hq-ex-6.brocade.com> Thread-Topic: [Icar] icar futures? Thread-Index: AcSx5XitNu2G6DB6QXK4Ssdq4F3qGgAF1aLA From: "Robert Snively" To: , "Pekka Savola" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2004 15:06:09.0913 (UTC) FILETIME=[567E9690:01C4B1FF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Scott W Brim , icar@ietf.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My previously stated and present view is that reviews are only meaningful when performed by deeply interested and involved parties. That commitment is in most respects more important than the actual knowledge base of overall IETF activities held by a reviewer. The IETF viewpoints may be impressed upon the review process during the comment resolution process as necessary. The way to get meaningful reviews is to find those people who are truly=20 interested and motivated. This often (but not always) means they must have=20 a commercial interest in the result. Those people may or may not have been active in IETF in the past, so IETF is going to have to do=20 outreach to the obvious candidate organizations that have shown an interest in the area being reviewed. That outreach must be both across the IETF membership and outside to other related standards organizations and industry organizations. Thus my continuing wish for active external liaison activities and broadly targeted solicitation of reviews. Making a call for "reviewers" in general will usually have the results you have seen here. Until you have a particular document that is important to a person, that person will simply not volunteer to review it. IESG actions and arm-twisting activities will not change that meaningfully. =20 Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: icar-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:icar-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > Mark Allman > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 4:38 AM > To: Pekka Savola > Cc: Scott W Brim; icar@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Wed, 13 Oct 2004, Mark Allman wrote: > > > * "we don't need the IESG" > > >=20 > > > I agree that we do not need this bit of help from the=20 > IESG to get > > > things started. I think the broader issue here is=20 > that the IESG is > > > not enthusiastic about ICAR early review. Is it=20 > reasonable to hope > > > to see this sort of thing widely used without some=20 > support from the > > > IESG? (Maybe it is... but, I'd like to hear someone argue the > > > point.) > >=20 > > The IESG is crucial for this to work. I'd suggest you ping IESG,=20 > > through Harald if necessary about this. > >=20 > > One could ask that each AD tries to list 3-4 persons capable of ICAR > > reviews they know of, and either the AD or you approach=20 > these persons=20 > > 1-on-1, soliciting help. >=20 > We pitched this idea to Harald before the last IETF meeting=20 > as a way to > seed the pool. His response in the meeting, as I recall, was that he > didn't think the IESG was up for this. Rather, he thought they'd help > by picking some WGs. That did not happen. Maybe Harald has a comment > to insert here or would like to try again. >=20 > > Remember, the fundamental problem is that broadcast don't work...=20 > > you'll have to approach the people the right way ("you were=20 > > recommended as a good reviewer, and we need YOUR help...").. >=20 > I agree with that fundemental problem. On the flip side, I worry that > while leaning on people to "volunteer" may produce a longer list of > reviewers, that does not necessarily yield a useful pool at the end of > the day. It doesn't even take the IESG to get names. I bet=20 > I could add > a bunch of names to the list without too much effort. And, I=20 > bet there > are others who could, as well. The fundemental question in my mind is > whether this is a useful approach or not. >=20 > allman >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 12:59:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA07218 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI97o-0006jj-Gu for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:10:49 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI8sj-0005hW-Hh; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:55:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI8g5-00033Z-PW for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:42:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA06085 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from measurement-factory.com ([206.168.0.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI8rH-0006ND-A1 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:53:44 -0400 Received: from pail.measurement-factory.com (nat.measurement-factory.com [206.168.0.3]) by measurement-factory.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i9EGg1J2092067; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:42:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rousskov@measurement-factory.com) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:42:00 -0600 To: mallman@icir.org, icar@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? References: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> From: "Alex Rousskov" Organization: The Measurement Factory Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> User-Agent: Opera M2/7.54 (FreeBSD, build 751) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:21:54 -0400, Mark Allman wrote: > * the call for reviewers for the ICAR experiment netted 7 reviewers This is not surprising to me, given the audience the call covered (less than 10% of IETFers?), the incentives offered for reviewers (virtually none) combined with IETF-wide level of excitement about the project (marginal) and no easy way to join for most IETF participants with time on their hands. IIRC, this outcome is even worse than I predicted when we were arguing about pool models and solicitation tactics on this list. I can only repeat what I have suggested before: provide some nice incentives for reviewers, ask prominent IETFers to plug the experiment every time they address an audience, praise existing reviewers on plenaries and web site, think about getting commercial sponsors involved, etc. Good marketing is required to sell something that the buyer does not need. We may still fail to attract enough reviewers long-term, but we may at least get enough of them for the initial experiment. If we still do not get enough, we should close the WG or change the pool model. Most of the above suggestions would require strong support from IESG, I guess. Alex. _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 13:36:07 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10214 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI9hY-0007Yd-A3 for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:47:45 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI9KA-0004K4-P1; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:23:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI9F6-0003IF-DM for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:18:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08973 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI9QI-0007BQ-Fr for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:29:55 -0400 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Oct 2004 10:24:21 -0700 Received: from cisco.com ([128.107.174.137]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id i9EHHjk2020882; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cisco.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:17:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:17:41 -0400 From: Scott W Brim To: Robert Snively Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? Message-ID: <20041014171730.GA1368@sbrim-w2k01> Mail-Followup-To: Scott W Brim , Robert Snively , mallman@icir.org, Pekka Savola , icar@ietf.org References: <66CFE0CA1DDEB54493E63A2C7C52924608CE52@hq-ex-6.brocade.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <66CFE0CA1DDEB54493E63A2C7C52924608CE52@hq-ex-6.brocade.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621 X-from-outside-Cisco: [128.107.174.137] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: icar@ietf.org, Pekka Savola , mallman@icir.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On Thu, Oct 14, 2004 08:06:09AM -0700, Robert Snively allegedly wrote: > The way to get meaningful reviews is to find those people who are > truly interested and motivated. ... > Thus my continuing wish for > active external liaison activities and broadly targeted solicitation > of reviews. > > Making a call for "reviewers" in general will usually have the results > you have seen here. Until you have a particular document that is > important to a person, that person will simply not volunteer to review > it. IESG actions and arm-twisting activities will not change that > meaningfully. Agreed. So what I meant by going to the WGs directly was that we solicit them to propose specific documents, and then we issue a call for reviewers for those documents (or groups of documents). Interesting documents will get motivated reviewers (I hope?). _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 13:41:22 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10743 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI9me-0007gQ-Mh for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:53:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI9ZS-0007nw-GL; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:39:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CI9WM-0006uj-E0 for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:36:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10211 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sb7.songbird.com ([208.184.79.137]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CI9hY-0007YK-97 for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:47:45 -0400 Received: from bbprime (sb7.songbird.com [127.0.0.1]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9EHZW4d014638; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:35:33 -0700 From: Dave Crocker To: , X-Mailer: PocoMail 3.2 (2000) - Licensed Version Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:19:17 -0700 Message-ID: <20041014101917.683652@bbprime> In-Reply-To: <20041013172154.9291677AE41@guns.icir.org> Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Dave Crocker List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:21:54 -0400, Mark Allman wrote: > * the call for reviewers for the ICAR experiment netted 7 > reviewers .... > * the IESG did not enthusiastically offer assistance with > choosing WGs to help seed the process Folks, There was quite a bit of quick signup for sirs. So a poor showing now is likely to be more than just 'people are busy'. People are always busy. I fear that the explanation could be broad-based burnout/frustration/distraction. However, analyzing this is probably only distracting. The only question that seems to me to be important is: how do we get useful activity? Placing the IESG into our critical path is unfortunately well demonstrated to be a mistake. We could explore that assessment more fully, too, but I'm more interested in this activity doing useful things. Bottom line is that we are on our own, if we want to make any progress anytime soon, and frankly I think that's ok. To me, the critical path to achieve utility depends upon willing reviewers and willing reviewees. Everyone else is overhead. Brian's comment is interesting because it points out that reviews are happening, albeit not under the icar umbrella. Is there a way to bring those activities within this effort, without having the exercise be more than political overhead? That is, is there value-add to provide? I think the community value-add is the bookkeeping benefit of being able to look in a single place and see what pattern of reviews we are getting. Reviewers: I suggest that we wholesale copy the sirs list over to the icar list. The sirs signups were of enthusiastic, constructive folk. I really do not think that changing the name of the list they are on will be viewed negatively by them. As a nicety, I suppose we could first send a note on sirs declaring that everyone will be copied over in 1 week and that anyone wanting to opt-out -- and I hope folks appreciate the spam irony of choosing an opt-out model -- needs to do so within that week. Reviewees: 1. Make sure that the icar service is announced broadly. wgchair, ietf list, wg chair training, and select working groups that we target. 2. Go after those select groups directly. Long ago I said I had one or two in mind. I still do, but they are taking awhile to get chartered. Hmmm. Maybe I don't have to wait for that? I have 2 sets of specifications that need reviews 1. CSV 2. domainkeys and identified mailer d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking +1.408.246.8253 dcrocker a t ... www.brandenburg.com _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 14:43:24 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14496 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIAke-0000Ln-Mn for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:55:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIAYS-0003Nt-Lp; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:42:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIARj-0002Au-5I for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:35:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14120 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIAcv-0000DP-CV for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:47:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2F261BA7 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18801-07 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618E261B9D for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:34:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:34:11 -0700 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: icar@ietf.org Message-ID: <478899E747FF11567DC3F101@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Icar] ICAR and the IESG X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to make something clear... The IESG thinks that the ICAR early review is important to the IETF, and wants to support the experiment. But we haven't been able to do much follow-up work for it. We weren't able to satisfy the request for naming reviewer candidates (the people we naturally think of are often already too busy); the other request was for WGs where it's about time for a review - I got some candidate WGs and have forgotten to pass them on; the IESG is going to redo the WG name collection. We definitely want ICAR to succeed - but the less we can be on the critical path for that success, the better for all of us, I think! Harald _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 14 23:36:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04488 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIJ4O-0004PN-Nz for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:47:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIIsU-0005RG-Tj; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:35:38 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIIrW-0005Ko-7I for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:34:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA04445 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.202.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIJ2j-0004NY-LG for icar@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 23:46:17 -0400 Received: from dfnjgl21 (c-24-1-99-5.client.comcast.net[24.1.99.5]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <200410150333550110073ngte> (Authid: sdawkins@comcast.net); Fri, 15 Oct 2004 03:33:55 +0000 Message-ID: <007d01c4b267$e0aa4f90$0200a8c0@DFNJGL21> From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: References: <20041014101917.683652@bbprime> Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:34:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Spencer Dawkins List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There was quite a bit of quick signup for sirs. So a poor > showing now is likely to be more than just 'people are busy'. > People are always busy. I fear that the explanation could be > broad-based burnout/frustration/distraction. However, analyzing > this is probably only distracting. Yeah - it IS worth knowing that a bunch of the SIRS were already Gen-ART volunteers (for instance, me), and (like Brian) didn't volunteer AGAIN... http://www.alvestrand.no/ietf/gen/reviewer-list.html Spencer _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 15 08:11:14 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21807 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIR6q-0005bA-Si for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:23:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIQpQ-0006sH-TM; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:05:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CIQlo-0006AM-Mt for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:01:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA20774 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtagate1.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.134]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CIQx8-0005Ig-Ao for icar@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:12:59 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.129]) by mtagate1.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i9FC0ZDq240948; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 12:00:35 GMT Received: from mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com (d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.228]) by d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.10/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id i9FC0YQG137370; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:00:34 +0100 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com) by mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CIQl7-0008Jq-00; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:00:33 +0100 Received: from [9.20.136.27] (helo=sp15en17.hursley.ibm.com) by mail-gw2.hursley.ibm.com with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1CIQl7-0008Jj-00; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:00:33 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-251-158.de.ibm.com [9.145.251.158]) by sp15en17.hursley.ibm.com (AIX5.1/8.11.6p2/8.11.0) with SMTP id i9FC0Xa533822; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:00:34 +0100 Message-ID: <416FBBDC.7030506@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:00:28 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? References: <20041014101917.683652@bbprime> In-Reply-To: <20041014101917.683652@bbprime> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: icar@ietf.org, mallman@icir.org X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Dave Crocker wrote: ... > Reviewers: > > I suggest that we wholesale copy the sirs list over to the icar > list. The sirs signups were of enthusiastic, constructive folk. > I really do not think that changing the name of the list they are > on will be viewed negatively by them. > > As a nicety, I suppose we could first send a note on sirs > declaring that everyone will be copied over in 1 week and that > anyone wanting to opt-out -- and I hope folks appreciate the spam > irony of choosing an opt-out model -- needs to do so within that > week. I think this is a good idea. Let's do it. Brian _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar From icar-bounces@ietf.org Sat Oct 23 23:29:12 2004 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA12114 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([132.151.6.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLZHP-0001H8-Ut for icar-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:42:52 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLZ37-0004nY-T9; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:28:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1CLZ0p-0004Uy-6P for icar@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:25:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA11983 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.202.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CLZDo-0001E8-MH for icar@ietf.org; Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:39:19 -0400 Received: from dfnjgl21 (c-24-1-96-76.client.comcast.net[24.1.96.76]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20041024032501016000oebue> (Authid: sdawkins@comcast.net); Sun, 24 Oct 2004 03:25:01 +0000 Message-ID: <0a1c01c4b979$20412c60$0200a8c0@DFNJGL21> From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: References: <20041014101917.683652@bbprime> <416FBBDC.7030506@zurich.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:25:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: icar@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Spencer Dawkins List-Id: Improved Cross-Area Review List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: icar-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: icar-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, I'll need to be one of the SIRs who opts out of ICAR. Just a few thoughts, though ... I happen to agree with Alex Rousskov that ICAR doesn't have an obvious incentive for participation. My sponsoring organization really liked the marketing aspects of supporting "Senior Internet Reviewers". I can explain to my sponsoring organization why I participate in directorates, and I can explain why I participate in an Area Review Team. Given a finite number of hours in the day... I happen to agree with Brian that setting up a recruiting drive at IETF 61 is a good thing to do - asking people in person will almost always get better responses than a broadcast appeal (see previous discussions in a variety of venues for examples). I happen to agree with Pekka that IESG support for ICAR is crucial. A year ago, I had the hope that the IESG would be willing, at some point, to review reviews instead of reviewing documents. That willingness has not arrived, in the general case. If ICAR reviewers are no different than other reviewers, there's no reason for a working group to involve involve ICAR reviewers - and, as a side effect, all the infinite tuning that we did on qualifications for ICAR reviewers was wasted. I happen to agree with Dave that we got people signed up more rapidly for SIR in 2003 than we're getting people signed up for ICAR in 2004. That's unfortunate - ICAR really should matter, but we've managed to take nine months to design an experiment, losing momentum in the meantime. For one IETF participant's view of why this happens, see sections 1, 2, and 3 of http://bgp.potaroo.net/ietf/all-ids/draft-klensin-process-july14-01.txt, which we cut out so we could get this draft published as RFC 3933. Since I'm agreeing with almost everyone who's posted in this list in October, why do I feel so disagreeable? I have to disagree with one posting. Saying "The IESG thinks that the ICAR early review is important to the IETF, and wants to support the experiment. But we haven't been able to do much follow-up work for it" since ICAR was chartered in February seems to mean that the IESG thinking something is important doesn't matter much, or at least doesn't translate to any actual movement. That's unfortunate. But best of luck to all who stay in/opt in. It's been real. Spencer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian E Carpenter" To: "Dave Crocker" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [Icar] icar futures? > Dave, > > Dave Crocker wrote: > ... >> Reviewers: >> >> I suggest that we wholesale copy the sirs list over to the icar >> list. The sirs signups were of enthusiastic, constructive folk. I >> really do not think that changing the name of the list they are on >> will be viewed negatively by them. As a nicety, I suppose we could >> first send a note on sirs declaring that everyone will be copied >> over in 1 week and that anyone wanting to opt-out -- and I hope >> folks appreciate the spam irony of choosing an opt-out model -- >> needs to do so within that week. > > I think this is a good idea. Let's do it. > > Brian _______________________________________________ Icar mailing list Icar@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/icar