From nobody Wed Sep 2 05:21:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF26D1B39CB; Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:21:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4L_BD0m-LXuf; Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210231B32E2; Wed, 2 Sep 2015 05:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:3875:3a56:d1fa:6aa] (unknown [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:3875:3a56:d1fa:6aa]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366FC203C5; Wed, 2 Sep 2015 14:21:04 +0200 (CEST) To: ice@ietf.org Followup-To: ice@ietf.org From: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 06:21:02 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: DISPATCH list , "mmusic@ietf.org" Subject: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:21:08 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Please find below a new version of the proposed charter, trying to take in account all the comments so far. The discussions are taking place in the ice mailing-list, please do not cross-post. Thanks. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charter for Working Group Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronised with the work in this working group. Synching with other network related working groups to make sure existing mechanisms like QoS, congestion control and other networking mechanisms still work would be essential if we want to improve how ICE works (MIF, TAPS, TSWG, HOMENET, etc...). From the application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application working groups will be essential (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). Milestones Jun 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJV5umuAAoJECnERZXWan7Ec9AQANIImmE2JC98QoBfq5MEGa01 w8gfLivIXT/Vx5BW3sGHQTv24dznMbwhMGKGwlizGYU0olgxGqc2VasogmvNrD5J 9PwMOHPzPxJe5rIVHMseiN8mk8DtPKVPmDoBZZt1T9ehP2yajYjRys9uFKwZiqhx +WJF6rxl/eRxmV6oF41m4VSs/UiN7inTMc8mnKvfi6TLdpInELiKHgnb6VxeW1N+ N6JU7TnG4MVYzUVTLPh5Di8BTCWVthOTqFEwJaGw8gcNA8ATDtx+XbTR2dAv3u0x WLzNep25LRcukn7UyPQaCZWaptIlqJJzzPit3w+oCuJlc5KTRv/SoODJuR1j4pS9 Lxj0ShAMwSCSfFg3MWIUP19+iE7QZcibh9WWHCY3LZWzOMD2uqLiIuH/OcJbwoIE c7kcd/m9oOxU0NWYNUYBIhFWbX5fg/bIeW+D3uQN9P9HDscs2XpWlwsL1M6ad2mC YtA0Mzd4E7PT18Q37eRcVcVeUBF+AF1gpqkUoBXKnZUTiUxIs8nORP9cLpywFaBz JhjganbYvvgDbPS6gnCSlQbMDlofpTWygfA8FT1FJ94wolv2pcPIH09ofDRYO8zM 5fqZuDkD9BFCKCuFzm/hxyeZTaHDB0pfe+wLN5Eccll06G7pOcMjR/8Q4SiR1l3Q LCNPefFKYJgT/SFpbL6k =3YsX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Mon Sep 7 05:35:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074D71B47CB for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 05:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytdBUZaxKGgS for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 05:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9271B4814 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 05:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71CD521346 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 07 Sep 2015 08:35:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=4JgQf 48Rx+V2sYPScTkSPX1vES0=; b=hHPj1esSUw31EicZv6Opkmiq3nNNjXX8H84hK 9DeuGfWo4RNBuXy5HsvZAz4vx2SDKhlDOx2ANLVshqUAgSqBrRiJ15k0I1gv9gsV gTK8zR0yIc9SahBm95UbjHbqqsbVvlWHPPdr7q2q0D1g+MvThRas4+kWU0hV8xRC 371Up4= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=4JgQf48Rx+V2sYPScTkSPX1vES0=; b=COtD+ rqAlAZvDEyTiHcTaargIS3/gtcCYHrmOCV9CZqLEfwR7gubUE/Tcsh2/Mu9LaoHd gMPnmS3/mLy+BQ+tYrt5ANDtD9NGUGQ1esjX1EwFvBHVn0Z5xEQnNJGsQY3UUvtt amTfB7FWIdKRSsOPZQfBbWcXOUpPwagD0SUgs8= X-Sasl-enc: +wAkWhQAc9urDGIfX7QtLwOgnxGhb3cQ0iN5TMwZuUUm 1441629317 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8813.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.179]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D64C2680143; Mon, 7 Sep 2015 08:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_39A33D64-12A8-49C7-A00A-A702C53308DB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2015 05:35:15 -0700 Message-Id: <818FDEEC-0D18-41EE-9509-6780FCB32927@cooperw.in> References: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> To: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2015 12:35:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_39A33D64-12A8-49C7-A00A-A702C53308DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Marc. It would be useful to hear from folks if they think this is = ready to go or needs further editing. I have one question and some = comments below. Question: I thought there was discussion about clarifying that the SDP = work will remain in MMUSIC? I think that would help. > On Sep 2, 2015, at 5:21 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Please find below a new version of the proposed charter, trying to = take in account all the comments so far. >=20 > The discussions are taking place in the ice mailing-list, please do = not cross-post. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- >=20 > Charter for Working Group >=20 > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in = April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited = deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other = mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This situation = has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a = set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real = Time Communication on the Web. >=20 > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT = traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a = dual stack address selection technique that works by including a = multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response = messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP addresses = and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by peer-to-peer = connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected to transport = data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the clients themselves = discovers, test and choose the network path to use. It makes no = assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. >=20 > ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol = used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP = (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other = realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. ICE is = also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and = RELOAD (RFC 6940). >=20 > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various = initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC = environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. ICE is an = application controlled protocol that leverages a set of network defined = protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related protocol = work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronised with = the work in this working group. Synching with other network related = working groups to make sure existing mechanisms like QoS, congestion = control and other networking mechanisms still work would be essential if = we want to improve how ICE works (MIF, TAPS, TSWG, HOMENET, etc=E2=80=A6).= I think the description of how the ICE WG will interact with these other = WGs needs to be a little more specific that =E2=80=9Csynching with=E2=80=9D= an open-ended list of WGs. Is it really the case that the ICE WG = intends to do something specific with respect to these groups, or rather = that the ICE WG will ensure that updates to ICE allow for continued = support of QoS and congestion control mechanisms generally? Thanks, Alissa >=20 > =46rom the application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make = sure what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the = application working groups will be essential (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, = P2PSIP). >=20 >=20 > Milestones >=20 > Jun 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard > Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard > Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard >=20 > -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice --Apple-Mail=_39A33D64-12A8-49C7-A00A-A702C53308DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Thanks Marc. It would be useful to hear from = folks if they think this is ready to go or needs further editing. I have = one question and some comments below.

Question: I thought there was = discussion about clarifying that the SDP work will remain in MMUSIC? I = think that would help.


On Sep 2, 2015, at 5:21 AM, Marc = Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org> wrote:

Signed PGP part
Please find below a new version of the proposed charter, = trying to take in account all the comments so far.

The discussions are taking place in the ice mailing-list, = please do not cross-post.

Thanks.

---------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------

Charter for Working = Group

Interactive Connectivity = Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently = the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. ICE was slow to achieve = widespread adoption, as other mechanisms were already being used by the = VoIP industry. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is = mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the = IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web.

Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) = is at the same time a NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address = selection technique, and a dual stack address selection technique that = works by including a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the = request and response messages of a connectivity establishment = transaction. The IP addresses and ports provided by each side are paired = and tested by peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair = is selected to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle = where the clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path = to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local = or remote side.

ICE was originally defined = for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later = XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb = (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol = have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media = protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940).

The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the = various initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the = WebRTC environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. ICE is an = application controlled protocol that leverages a set of network defined = protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related protocol = work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronised with = the work in this working group. Synching with other network related = working groups to make sure existing mechanisms like QoS, congestion = control and other networking mechanisms still work would be essential if = we want to improve how ICE works (MIF, TAPS, TSWG, HOMENET, etc=E2=80=A6).=

I = think the description of how the ICE WG will interact with these other = WGs needs to be a little more specific that =E2=80=9Csynching with=E2=80=9D= an open-ended list of WGs. Is it really the case that the ICE WG = intends to do something specific with respect to these groups, or rather = that the ICE WG will ensure that updates to ICE allow for continued = support of QoS and congestion control mechanisms = generally?

Thanks,
Alissa

=46rom the application side, the users of ICE, there is a = need to make sure what is specified is actually usable. Getting input = from the application working groups will be essential (RTCWEB, HIP, = MMUSIC, P2PSIP).


Milestones

    Jun 2016 Submit Dual-stack = Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard
    Apr 2016 Submit a revision = of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard
    Jan 2016 Submit Trickle = ICE as Proposed Standard

--
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: = http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug


_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice

= --Apple-Mail=_39A33D64-12A8-49C7-A00A-A702C53308DB-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 03:44:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5C41B2D40 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 03:44:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7z1i5a72-ahu for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 03:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client 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rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Sep 2015 10:44:45 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (xch-rcd-002.cisco.com [173.37.102.12]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t88Aij7B011523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:44:45 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 05:44:44 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com (173.37.183.88) by xch-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 05:44:44 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.133]) by xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([173.37.183.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 05:44:44 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter Thread-Index: AQHQ6WmxvgcmWebRjkCMlAZecYrelJ4yx7oA Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:44:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> <818FDEEC-0D18-41EE-9509-6780FCB32927@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <818FDEEC-0D18-41EE-9509-6780FCB32927@cooperw.in> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [64.101.220.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DCA1570A77594437931099A2FD52FA2Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , Alissa Cooper Subject: Re: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:44:52 -0000 --_000_DCA1570A77594437931099A2FD52FA2Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Y2xhc3M9IiI+DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzxiciBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCkljZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3Q8YnIgY2xhc3M9 IiI+DQo8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86SWNlQGlldGYub3JnIiBjbGFzcz0iIj5JY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmc8 L2E+PGJyIGNsYXNzPSIiPg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9pY2UiIGNsYXNzPSIiPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vaWNlPC9hPjxiciBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8 YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fPGJyIGNsYXNzPSIiPg0KSWNlIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdDxiciBjbGFzcz0iIj4N CjxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpJY2VAaWV0Zi5vcmciIGNsYXNzPSIiPkljZUBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48 YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljZTxi ciBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+ DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DCA1570A77594437931099A2FD52FA2Bciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 8 10:52:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93B31B309C for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zWLX3YVPJrvb for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C004C1A6FC7 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2020; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1441734744; x=1442944344; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version; bh=t/pNYELzqNPHclbSjb27HWkPucMy/bAucBLfLN/f8GQ=; b=OlLwjl3bD+DqSiRafQP6enEQyArKQ5iv4aS1GvZUAt0ePd7WaA5qGD7J /wuM0Ug7CMd7e0xHl6qTa/mb85NhpLM5t10YYSVup+I92Z56N8vu/toa7 nW6k0LVWDfqOJM62gZmpUwtJH9WUTylZjonuqXh9I2sd0gDRjv9KWxZww 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CdAgDiH+9V/4oNJK1dgyO+ZwEJiSs4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoRRE3s0BXeIE6ddo3UBAQgBAQEBAR2QFxEBb4MBgRQFjWyHaXGMBgOBTIdSiSSINSaCEByBdB6HPYE/AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,491,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="185784409" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Sep 2015 17:52:23 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t88HqMNq022296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 17:52:23 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t88HqMbd030292 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:22 -0700 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id t88HqMrB030291 for ice@ietf.org; Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 10:52:22 -0700 From: Toerless Eckert To: ice@ietf.org Message-ID: <20150908175222.GC14573@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Charter discussion comments/Q's X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2015 17:52:26 -0000 Couple of thoughts questions a) WOuld be good to restructure charter to first explain stuff that has and still happens witout ICE group. And then whats planned for the ICE wg. Right now, what's planned for ICE wg is hidden in the middle of background explanations b) Right now it seems the only statement about planned work is: "The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC environment but also to all the current usages of ICE." Aka: one sentence. Thats would be record slim. If a WG can be created with one sentence statement of work, i'd love to repeat that for other WGs because i hate charter bashing ;-)) (kidding... somewhat ;-) c) I would definitely like to see a statement about "work to allow ICE to proliferate better into other/new environments/solutions" - and not constrain only to current ones as the current sentence implies. Obviously it's a matter of milestones later in the charter bashing to define what such new work could be, but hopefully we can have a BOF with proposals for such work (i have something in mind). d) I have today only seen ICE being used in traditional SIP/WbRTC, eg: with UDP. so i am not really up to speed how much ICE has already been defined to support/enhance other use case areas and/or whether these could be of interest to the ICE WG: -> negotiation/pinhole-poking for reliable transports - TCP/SCTP, especially when not over UDP (over UDP it's obvious thart we could use ICE). -> enhancing happy eyeballs selection not only for addresses, but also transport protocols. (don't hit me too hard if the answers to these questions would be obvious if i would read through all the STUN/TURN/ICE RFCs ;-)) e) Pal and i did have some other idea, but that's probbly better explained in a draft for a BOF than in email ;-) Thanks Toerless From nobody Wed Sep 9 00:25:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C47B1B3CA3 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 00:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8XfPjHPbNQS5 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 00:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61EB51B3CCC for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 00:25:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5264; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1441783523; x=1442993123; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=WjSRM2yqevJk9km3DckQn6YRkY4Tna2+/y3MZz3kV/M=; b=WusFIpm6/fPKgLyb4xL0m1XFNAoLWGclDYw/lWsuKC+slxYS6CYX2IxM YkCZzJMqZhJeQhzVmhoDKuACTX+lx038XcxcntDOWFJnEBrk4xuiqld5B ZyQbvN/OCd1b2prUj67u20B5pJ1xlnSSNpW2UtXQ7IJFdnMIktSFVR8ec c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0A+AgBr3u9V/4oNJK1dgyNUWg8Ggx66CQEJgW0KhXkCHIEZOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEIwEBAQMBAQEBIAQNOgsFCwIBCBgCAiYCAgIlCxUQAgQOBRuICwgNtXaUQAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEgSKFUYIPgWeBBYQpEQEeMweCaS+BFAWSM4MjAYx5gUyHUokliDUmghAcgVRxhwo6gQUBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,495,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="186360487" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Sep 2015 07:25:19 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t897PJSc013874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 07:25:19 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 02:25:18 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com (173.37.183.85) by xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 02:25:17 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.133]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 02:25:17 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Ice] Charter discussion comments/Q's Thread-Index: AQHQ6l8mnYIbfr3wg0mSckpLvrXp3p40IGwA Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 07:25:17 +0000 Message-ID: <07600008-8DE8-4AEE-9445-4F887DAEA8F0@cisco.com> References: <20150908175222.GC14573@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20150908175222.GC14573@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [64.101.220.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Charter discussion comments/Q's X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 07:25:25 -0000 DQo+IE9uIDA4IFNlcCAyMDE1LCBhdCAxOTo1MiwgVG9lcmxlc3MgRWNrZXJ0IChlY2tlcnQpIDxl Y2tlcnRAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IENvdXBsZSBvZiB0aG91Z2h0cyBxdWVzdGlv bnMNCj4gDQo+IGEpIFdPdWxkIGJlIGdvb2QgdG8gcmVzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgY2hhcnRlciB0byBmaXJz dCBleHBsYWluIHN0dWZmIHRoYXQgaGFzDQo+ICAgYW5kIHN0aWxsIGhhcHBlbnMgd2l0b3V0IElD RSBncm91cC4gQW5kIHRoZW4gd2hhdHMgcGxhbm5lZCBmb3IgdGhlDQo+ICAgSUNFIHdnLiBSaWdo dCBub3csIHdoYXQncyBwbGFubmVkIGZvciBJQ0Ugd2cgaXMgaGlkZGVuIGluIHRoZSBtaWRkbGUN Cj4gICBvZiBiYWNrZ3JvdW5kIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9ucw0KPiANCg0KR29vZCBxdWVzdGlvbi4NCg0K V2UgYXJlIG5vdCBhaW1pbmcgdG8gY2hhcnRlciBhbnkgbmV3IHdvcmsuIFRoZSBwbGFuIGlzIHRv IG1vdmUgd29yayB0aGF0IGlzIGFscmVhZHkgY2hhcnRlcmVkIGFuZCByZWFycmFuZ2UgaG93IHdl IGFyZSB3b3JraW5nIG9uIHRoYXQuIEJ5IG1vdmluZyB3b3JrIG91dCBvZiBNTVVTSUMgaW50byBh IG5ldyBhbmQgc2hpbnkgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCB3ZSBtaWdodCBnZXQgYSBjaGFuY2UgdG8gZ2V0 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bCBjb21mb3J0YWJsZS4gDQoNCkJ1dCBsZXRzIGZpcnN0IHNlZSBpZiBhbnkgbmV3IElDRSBXRyBz cGlucyB1cC4NCg0KLi0uDQpQw6VsLUVyaWsNCg0KDQoNCj4gVGhhbmtzDQo+ICAgIFRvZXJsZXNz DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K PiBJY2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEljZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljZQ0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 9 10:55:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383231B4101; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:55:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3CQvU3KQafqV; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D46931B40F5; Wed, 9 Sep 2015 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t89Ht2al082419 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Sep 2015 12:55:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Marc Petit-Huguenin" Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 12:55:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> References: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: DISPATCH list , mmusic@ietf.org, ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 17:55:40 -0000 Comments inline: On 2 Sep 2015, at 7:21, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > Please find below a new version of the proposed charter, trying to = > take in account all the comments so far. > > The discussions are taking place in the ice mailing-list, please do = > not cross-post. > > Thanks. > > - = > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------- > > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in = > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited = > deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other = > mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This = > situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in = > WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to = > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT = > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a = > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a = > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and = > response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP = > addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by = > peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected = > to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the = > clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path to use. = > It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or = > remote side. > > ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol = > used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP = > (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and = > other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. = > ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) = > and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various = > initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC = > environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. I'd like to see more specifics here. There are three milestones--the = charter text should describe the work items supported by those = milestones and expected output. If those milestones are assumed to be = based on existing drafts, please name them. We also need to be clear on how open or closed ended this is. Is the = goal to finish specific work and close? Or do you expect the wg to add new work items in the future as new ICE = requirements become apparent? (Note that a "standing" maintenance = working group may get more charter scrutiny than one intended to finish = and close.) > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of = > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and = > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely = > synchronised with the work in this working group. Synching with other = > network related working groups to make sure existing mechanisms like = > QoS, congestion control and other networking mechanisms still work = > would be essential if we want to improve how ICE works (MIF, TAPS, = > TSWG, HOMENET, etc...). From the application side, the users of ICE, = > there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually usable. = > Getting input from the application working groups will be essential = > (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). > > Milestones > > Jun 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard > Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard > Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard > > - -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Wed Sep 16 04:55:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5BA1A9121; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 04:55:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3bt0O5ftAuqO; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 04:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DA071A86EF; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 04:55:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6820; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1442404503; x=1443614103; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; 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(173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:55:01 -0500 Received: from xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com (173.36.12.86) by xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:55:01 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.133]) by xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com ([173.36.12.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 06:55:00 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Ben Campbell Thread-Topic: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter Thread-Index: AQHQ6yjBV4+Ne8yrWUiJaSVKPdY+JZ4/aoaA Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:55:00 +0000 Message-ID: <5AF903D1-3E91-453B-8BAE-8465A04F2E68@cisco.com> References: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <31C20B0BD0E7F74E945AAFCDD80AF9EE@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , DISPATCH list , "mmusic@ietf.org" , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:55:17 -0000 DQo+IE9uIDA5IFNlcCAyMDE1LCBhdCAxOTo1NSwgQmVuIENhbXBiZWxsIDxiZW5Abm9zdHJ1bS5j b20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gQ29tbWVudHMgaW5saW5lOg0KPiANCj4gT24gMiBTZXAgMjAxNSwg YXQgNzoyMSwgTWFyYyBQZXRpdC1IdWd1ZW5pbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+PiBQbGVhc2UgZmluZCBi ZWxvdyBhIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFydGVyLCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gdGFr ZSBpbiBhY2NvdW50IGFsbCB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgc28gZmFyLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBUaGUgZGlzY3Vz c2lvbnMgYXJlIHRha2luZyBwbGFjZSBpbiB0aGUgaWNlIG1haWxpbmctbGlzdCwgcGxlYXNlIGRv 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aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWNlDQo+ IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBJ Y2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEljZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljZQ0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 16 05:17:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDF71ACD9B for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 05:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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"ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Updated charter Thread-Index: AQHQ8HmqVyFike9wq06a1o+3b6QcEw== Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:17:32 +0000 Message-ID: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.28] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_537316C7310F477AA639B3D2E7655727ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 12:17:38 -0000 --_000_537316C7310F477AA639B3D2E7655727ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpIaSwNCg0KQmFzZWQgb24gbGlzdCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyIGlzIG5vdyB1cGRh dGVkLg0KRm9yIHRoZSBnaXRodWIgZHJhZnQgZW50aHVzaWFzdHMgb3V0IHRoZXJlIHRoZSBwdWxs 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-0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:49:08 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Updated charter Thread-Index: AQHQ8HmqVyFike9wq06a1o+3b6QcE54/TUvA Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:49:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.49.124] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_cac5d1f9c3c14c19ae338dda4973357dXCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , 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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdVkb0jIlOvj for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDA41A0046 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:587c:d6:b80a:eff5] (unknown [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:587c:d6:b80a:eff5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C82F620463; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 17:59:03 +0200 (CEST) To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <55F991C5.2030906@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:59:01 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lfcd9tRIBOuAmfpTJbMkp1piDtmKLbpwP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:59:07 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --lfcd9tRIBOuAmfpTJbMkp1piDtmKLbpwP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 09/16/2015 09:49 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > You may want to add ICE is also used by PPSP (https://datatracker.ietf.= org/wg/ppsp/charter/). I did not know that, thanks. That strengthen my position that the WG-to-= be should leave the manner the ICE establishment parameters are carried f= or a particular protocol up to the WG managing that protocol. RTCWeb is = not special. > What about ICE continuous nomination ? >=20 > -Tiru > From: Ice [mailto:ice-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pal Martinsen (pal= marti) > Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 5:48 PM > To: ice@ietf.org > Subject: [Ice] Updated charter >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. > For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be foun= d at: > https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. >=20 > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 Start =E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94- > Charter for Working Group >=20 > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in Apr= il 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. = ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other mechanisms were alr= eady being used by the VoIP industry. This situation has changed drastica= lly as ICE is mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies dev= eloped at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the = Web. >=20 > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT = traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a dual= stack address selection technique that works by including a multiplicity= of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response messages of a= connectivity establishment transaction. The IP addresses and ports prov= ided by each side are paired and tested by peer-to-peer connectivity chec= ks until one of these pair is selected to transport data. ICE follows the= end to end principle where the clients themselves discovers, test and ch= oose the network path to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network t= opology on the local or remote side. >=20 > ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol use= d by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-= nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishm= ent protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime med= ia protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). >=20 > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiat= ives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC environment bu= t also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work in this area includ= es an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle ICE and dualstack/= multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this work will make ICE mo= re flexible, robust and more suitable for changing mobile environments wi= thout major changes to the original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consi= der new work items that follow this pattern. >=20 > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of netwo= rk defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related pr= otocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronized w= ith the work in this working group. To avoid interoperability issues and = unwanted behavior it is desired to increase the interaction with other wo= rking groups dealing with network protocols closer to the wire. Example o= f such work may be, but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, mu= lti subnet and prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control.= From the application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sur= e what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the applicatio= n working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). >=20 >=20 >=20 > Milestones >=20 > - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness > - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis > (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) > - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice > (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) >=20 > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 STOP =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 >=20 --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --lfcd9tRIBOuAmfpTJbMkp1piDtmKLbpwP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJV+ZHFAAoJECnERZXWan7ERRYQAImTr9YVec/a/qdIRHvAFKqY 3LDgppYwRm9JNEhwMLbsbM+geE5pBvPwkwwWZs3D9wNbYizA6pzA1N8H3bSfB0zM HyGfGWrEbSB1V+ocQ531rfmU35ydlE/iwNZ1BUJomngw7bmE2H8CUyZ0+3da9X28 urHn73UvOM3dtP7nAG6UEAI7CfckHiisQfkWUHUor40yO8Nu+8vUY4X+H0fvrN2a PoKB0hqpARHU8xoK4q+A0o++CreSVWXeHRIuaFtwaejqeOws9/85k/6BdDPn/K/s 2uVvIW7iJmYUkzmmvJlM4ebzIQyvgQSGQDSKCug9iETG8OglaBeTqsADSS8n7vSq YolrzwHpPHSxV7J29PRFxVNKXuFyICEVrS+uIwOCu7wQE7uTYCOE54Ukq7Yht6sk TmvuEDr3ErGlf4Xs+S6bYzWIA/6ocKEGA6+LLlCtPnjE/wPRu0/4pf+f6fY48vKS 1mMn3mWb173iwZAwKrEDoeHJ0KjjHmAP7QBUp12z6Ru4eJ4woNaClMcKseUA4giP jY70/FH8WsPkK00NXmh3jdSvCnBrA9TP1ijGlOZ1vHv2X+0btlYCpFaOp5iZs4V1 w2EyB41PxPntr/SoCkjZ5JRN7T7JWPd0vkCNkbnN4IsxzOtL/pXtwWY7ld8LigmY vWsX79cjugySKB3wRrMQ =yria -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lfcd9tRIBOuAmfpTJbMkp1piDtmKLbpwP-- From nobody Wed Sep 16 16:13:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com 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rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t8GNDhMd016120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:13:43 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-020.cisco.com (173.36.7.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:13:42 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:13:42 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter Thread-Index: AQHQ6WmxZT9mUwYTdkyaioakWiLyxZ4yx7yAgA0OzZA= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:13:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55E6E9AE.7080400@acm.org> <818FDEEC-0D18-41EE-9509-6780FCB32927@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.49.124] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d5b4019a97ec4afc8f8a90c21ff6c2bcXCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , Alissa Cooper Subject: Re: [Ice] New version of the proposed charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 23:13:47 -0000 --_000_d5b4019a97ec4afc8f8a90c21ff6c2bcXCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW5saW5lIFtUUl0NCkZyb206IEljZSBbbWFpbHRvOmljZS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBC ZWhhbGYgT2YgUGFsIE1hcnRpbnNlbiAocGFsbWFydGkpDQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBTZXB0ZW1i ZXIgMDgsIDIwMTUgNDoxNSBQTQ0KVG86IGljZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KQ2M6IE1hcmMgUGV0aXQtSHVn dWVuaW47IEFsaXNzYSBDb29wZXINClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWNlXSBOZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0 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2015 02:54:01 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.133]) by xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([173.37.183.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 17 Sep 2015 02:54:01 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Thread-Topic: Updated charter Thread-Index: AQHQ8HmqCfVLzJlXnkSqQH7aqk8/F54/oVAAgAENk4A= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 07:54:01 +0000 Message-ID: <07169C8F-E1B2-46E5-885C-4F77192A211E@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_07169C8FE1B246E5885C4F77192A211Eciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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Ij48L286cD48L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPGRpdiBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCjxkaXYgc3R5bGU9Im1hcmdp bjogMGluIDBpbiAwLjAwMDFwdDsgZm9udC1zaXplOiAxMnB0OyBmb250LWZhbWlseTogJ1RpbWVz IE5ldyBSb21hbicsIHNlcmlmOyIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQpQw6VsLUVyaWs8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9 IiI+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_07169C8FE1B246E5885C4F77192A211Eciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Sep 18 13:34:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127FD1B34BC for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vn7iq2ITly2K for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19D3D1B34BB for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8IKXjI7064140 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:33:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:33:45 -0500 Message-ID: <2C64C3EC-6C46-4B4F-86E3-9B338CD102CC@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <07169C8F-E1B2-46E5-885C-4F77192A211E@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <07169C8F-E1B2-46E5-885C-4F77192A211E@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: Tirumaleswar Reddy , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:34:01 -0000 On 17 Sep 2015, at 2:54, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > What about ICE continuous nomination ? >   > Continuous nomination, passive aggressive and shaved ICE are all > initiatives I thing the WG should work on. But none of the drafts have > been adopted, so not sure how to mention that in the charter without > implicitly adopting that work. I think most of that work falls under > the ICEbis umbrella.  For the record, no drafts have been adopted by ICE :-) (But yes, there are some drafts ICE is highly likely to inherit as part of the chartering process.) But if people believe that the group should include things like these in the charter, it's perfectly possible to do so without implicitly adopting a particular draft. You can describe a goal without including a draft name, or even mention a draft to be used as "input into discussion" (which might or might not get adopted later.) Ben. From nobody Fri Sep 18 13:37:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16E51B34EB for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jjfv6dtFZS-M for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44D791B34EA for ; Fri, 18 Sep 2015 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8IKat5Q064426 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:37:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 15:36:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 20:37:09 -0000 For the record, this version addresses my previous comments. IMO it looks good to go, modulo the separate discussion about the scope of the work. (much of which could be adopted post-chartering under the "new work items that follow this pattern" clause.) Thanks! Ben. On 16 Sep 2015, at 7:17, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > Hi, > > Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. > For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be > found at: > https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. > > —————— Start —————- > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited > deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other > mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This > situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in > WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and > response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP > addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by > peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected > to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the > clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path to use. > It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or > remote side. > > ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol > used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP > (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and > other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. > ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) > and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC > environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work in > this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle > ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for > changing mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE > RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this > pattern. > > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely > synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid > interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to > increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with > network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but > not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and > prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the > application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what > is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application > working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). > > > > Milestones > > - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness > - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis > (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) > - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice > (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) > > ————— STOP ——————— > > .-. > PĂĄl-Erik > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Sep 22 10:38:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FAF1A92AB; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xz6FAt8s5jhY; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97DC81A9245; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.2] (mobile-166-173-187-116.mycingular.net [166.173.187.116]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8MHc68v067051 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:38:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mobile-166-173-187-116.mycingular.net [166.173.187.116] claimed to be [172.20.10.2] From: "Ben Campbell" To: ice@ietf.org, mmusic Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:38:01 -0500 Message-ID: <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: Pal Martinsen , mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:38:22 -0000 Hi, If we hope to have ICE approved as a working group in time for Yokohama, we would need to start the IESG internal review by this Thursday. IMO, this language is about right. I think there's still an open issue about where the SDP bit lives. Can we close on that? Thanks! Ben. On 16 Sep 2015, at 7:17, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > Hi, > > Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. > For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be > found at: > https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. > > —————— Start —————- > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited > deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other > mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This > situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in > WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and > response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP > addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by > peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected > to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the > clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path to use. > It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or > remote side. > > ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol > used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP > (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and > other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. > ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) > and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC > environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work in > this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle > ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for > changing mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE > RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this > pattern. > > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely > synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid > interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to > increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with > network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but > not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and > prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the > application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what > is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application > working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). > > > > Milestones > > - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness > - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis > (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) > - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard > draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice > (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) > > ————— STOP ——————— > > .-. > PĂĄl-Erik > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Sep 22 10:52:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069BC1A9143; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qb0qLLeBNd_X; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B6E91A9140; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 10:52:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6188; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1442944329; x=1444153929; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=xwQum2biSnkfHKSZMGzLcbDIR64RaH9WE0f8cJWky44=; b=PYcpZGxEP+CZReDQxztq4Cd0WGZ9wf8OtKvFKAWmBCyPXzPyusRKTsM0 lAfEmPk03Xikssk9+WsXA0OJnKyfvM6V+5RaPdChVULIlWw8j+eqQerVH CRTNp6EQ/EPBk1XJm2Flyt4GPimj8EDm1Qdy/uKqfXYuo3aLczi58kjz8 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DwAQAYlQFW/5pdJa1dgyRUaQa9VAENgXAKhXkCHIEuOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJAEBAQMBAQEBIBE6CwULAgEGAhgCAiYCAgIlCxUQAgQOBYgmCA2ZXp0rlB0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIEihVGCD4JuhDQmMweCaS+BFAWHNo4xAYUQh3iBTpEaiDsfAQFChAFxiCVDgQUBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,574,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="29216076" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Sep 2015 17:51:47 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (xch-aln-009.cisco.com [173.36.7.19]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t8MHplII001593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:51:47 GMT Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:51:46 -0500 Received: from xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com (173.37.183.83) by xch-aln-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:51:46 -0500 Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.153]) by xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([173.37.183.83]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:51:46 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Ben Campbell Thread-Topic: [Ice] Updated charter Thread-Index: AQHQ8HmqCfVLzJlXnkSqQH7aqk8/F55JLbmAgAAD24A= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:51:46 +0000 Message-ID: <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [173.36.7.17] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , mmusic , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:52:12 -0000 DQo+IE9uIDIyIFNlcCAyMDE1LCBhdCAxOTozOCwgQmVuIENhbXBiZWxsIDxiZW5Abm9zdHJ1bS5j b20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gSGksDQo+IA0KPiBJZiB3ZSBob3BlIHRvIGhhdmUgSUNFIGFwcHJv dmVkIGFzIGEgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBpbiB0aW1lIGZvciBZb2tvaGFtYSwgd2Ugd291bGQgbmVl ZCB0byBzdGFydCB0aGUgSUVTRyBpbnRlcm5hbCByZXZpZXcgYnkgdGhpcyBUaHVyc2RheS4gSU1P LCB0aGlzIGxhbmd1YWdlIGlzIGFib3V0IHJpZ2h0LiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZXJlJ3Mgc3RpbGwgYW4g b3BlbiBpc3N1ZSBhYm91dCB3aGVyZSB0aGUgU0RQIGJpdCBsaXZlcy4gQ2FuIHdlIGNsb3NlIG9u 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to be [172.20.10.2] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 11:20:49 -0500 Message-ID: <2747F335-5850-49C4-B5B2-0061A55E3172@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:21:09 -0000 On 22 Sep 2015, at 12:51, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> On 22 Sep 2015, at 19:38, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> If we hope to have ICE approved as a working group in time for >> Yokohama, we would need to start the IESG internal review by this >> Thursday. IMO, this language is about right. I think there's still an >> open issue about where the SDP bit lives. Can we close on that? > > I think the arguments can be summarised as follows. > > - Keeping SDP in MMUSIC helps ICE focus on core ICE things > - MMUSIC has a lot of SDP knowledge needed to get things right > > I support keeping ICE in ICE and SDP in MMUSIC. Does anyone still object to keeping the SDP part in MMUSIC? > > .-. > PĂĄl-Erik > >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 16 Sep 2015, at 7:17, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. >>> For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be >>> found at: >>> https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. >>> >>> —————— Start —————- >>> Charter for Working Group >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in >>> April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited >>> deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other >>> mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This >>> situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement >>> in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to >>> standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a >>> NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, >>> and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including >>> a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and >>> response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The >>> IP addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested >>> by peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is >>> selected to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle >>> where the clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network >>> path to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on >>> the local or remote side. >>> >>> ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol >>> used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and >>> other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. >>> ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC >>> 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). >>> >>> The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various >>> initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC >>> environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work >>> in this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), >>> Trickle ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing >>> that this work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable >>> for changing mobile environments without major changes to the >>> original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items >>> that follow this pattern. >>> >>> ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of >>> network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and >>> related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely >>> synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid >>> interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to >>> increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with >>> network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, >>> but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and >>> prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the >>> application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure >>> what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the >>> application working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, >>> P2PSIP). >>> >>> >>> >>> Milestones >>> >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness >>> - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) >>> >>> ————— STOP ——————— >>> >>> .-. >>> PĂĄl-Erik >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Wed Sep 23 12:40:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A931B2BAC; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N3mDWNuK7cJS; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B01F1B2BA7; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 12:40:10 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79136d0000071e2-bc-56030018d428 Received: from ESESSHC013.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 85.DB.29154.81003065; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:40:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:40:07 +0200 Received: from nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810BE605A8; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:41:44 +0300 (EEST) Received: from As-MacBook-Air.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nomadiclab.lmf.ericsson.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3E75723A; Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:41:43 +0300 (EEST) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , Ben Campbell References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> Message-ID: <56030016.5020107@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:40:06 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrPLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja4EA3OYwYc1qhbTz/xltJjfeZrd 4tuFWot/e5Mspi5/zGLx/vpKFgc2jym/N7J6fHnyksljyZKfTB6zdj5h8fhy+TNbAGsUl01K ak5mWWqRvl0CV0bjnjeMBbu1Kz6uus3YwPhSuYuRk0NCwERiy9R5rBC2mMSFe+vZuhi5OIQE jjJKNG+8ygzhbGOUWPf/GiOEs45R4tmve1DOCkaJF1u/soH0swnYSvxu38MEYgsLKEm0vzrF CGKLCIRKbHw1mQWiYQmjRNvXnawgDrPAQkaJLXuXg3XwCmhLvFz4mxnEZhFQlfi+BGKSqECa xLtrj6BqBCVOznzCAmJzAm37sGkV2GZmAQuJmfPPM0LY8hLNW2czQ3ykJnH13CYwWwho5tV/ rxgnMIrMQjJqFpL2WUjaFzAyr2IULU4tLs5NNzLSSy3KTC4uzs/Ty0st2cQIjKGDW35b7WA8 +NzxEKMAB6MSD+8CdqYwIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK8zUwPQoUE0hNLUrNTUwtSi+KLSnNSiw8x MnFwSjUwLpQqmKAbJRLmrVP92e/99xnde5yyNkzNK14SqbYrsCX2m/nUSc93PJJUnfj6etbU jT3rmlmnHubbylP563Rh3MS96Q93zG1d9iFyxkON5j/LVFu2CZ7SWfV3nYP2+W/bNG5/jrfp fqNmGWXylH2Z6h//2bIle09f149p8VlXmzXvU8fvpQkqPEosxRmJhlrMRcWJAKEwjGqCAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , Alissa Cooper , mmusic , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:40:13 -0000 On 22/09/15 20:51, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >> On 22 Sep 2015, at 19:38, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> If we hope to have ICE approved as a working group in time for Yokohama,we would need to start the IESG internal review by this Thursday. IMO, this language is about right. I think there's still an open issue about where the SDP bit lives. Can we close on that? > > I think the arguments can be summarised as follows. > > - Keeping SDP in MMUSIC helps ICE focus on core ICE things > - MMUSIC has a lot of SDP knowledge needed to get things right I agree that a focused ICE group is a good idea. And there are already many "core" items the group will potentially start working on, so reducing the amount of extra items is in general a good idea. One point made at the Prague meeting for having also ICE SDP in ICE WG is that often SDP related to a protocol has been done jointly in the WG defining the protocol and SDP directorate has been used to make sure the SDP parts get proper review. On the other hand, now protocols using *ICE* would be done in different WGs, so perhaps MMUSIC with SDP should be considered as such. Regarding the charter text, I think it looks good, but I'm not sure if we need the first "history" paragraph. Maybe rather mentioned WebRTC and it's key role only with other protocols in the later paragraph? Cheers, Ari > I support keeping ICE in ICE and SDP in MMUSIC. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 16 Sep 2015, at 7:17, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. >>> For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be found at: >>> https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. >>> >>> —————— Start —————- >>> Charter for Working Group >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other mechanisms were alreadybeing used by the VoIP industry. This situation has changed drastically asICE is mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The IP addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested by peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is selected to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle where the clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network path to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. >>> >>> ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). >>> >>> The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work in this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for changing mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new workitems that follow this pattern. >>> >>> ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP). >>> >>> >>> >>> Milestones >>> >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness >>> - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) >>> >>> ————— STOP ——————— >>> >>> .-. >>> PĂĄl-Erik >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Thu Sep 24 07:28:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469C01A1B89; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGD9i37U7KgR; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 170811AD05B; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:27:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Ben Campbell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150924142703.12574.45013.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:27:03 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: ben@nostrum.com, Alissa Cooper , ice@ietf.org Subject: [Ice] Ben Campbell's Yes on charter-ietf-ice-00-02: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:28:21 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-ice-00-02: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ice/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is still some discussion about whether the SDP pieces should stay in MMUSIC or move to ICE. From nobody Thu Sep 24 08:12:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E9F1B29B1; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 270jI0ZGT9Lj; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB5471AD35B; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.1.3] ([162.216.46.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8OFBqFd016058 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:12:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [162.216.46.76] claimed to be [10.10.1.3] From: "Ben Campbell" To: mmusic , mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, ice@ietf.org Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:11:51 -0400 Message-ID: <70001B71-C3C2-46E5-BC9F-794A4D0C351B@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: Pal Martinsen Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:12:07 -0000 [Oops, forgot the ICE list. Sorry for the repeat] Hi Everyone, I put the latest charter text and milestones from gitbub into the datatracker at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ice/ . I plan to put this into IESG internal review, and on the next IESG telechat. I know there's still a conversation going on about where to put the SDP bits. Please continue that conversation; hopefully we can close on it before the telechat. Thanks! Ben. On 22 Sep 2015, at 13:51, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> On 22 Sep 2015, at 19:38, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> If we hope to have ICE approved as a working group in time for >> Yokohama, we would need to start the IESG internal review by this >> Thursday. IMO, this language is about right. I think there's still an >> open issue about where the SDP bit lives. Can we close on that? > > I think the arguments can be summarised as follows. > > - Keeping SDP in MMUSIC helps ICE focus on core ICE things > - MMUSIC has a lot of SDP knowledge needed to get things right > > I support keeping ICE in ICE and SDP in MMUSIC. > > .-. > PĂĄl-Erik > >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 16 Sep 2015, at 7:17, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Based on list discussion the charter is now updated. >>> For the github draft enthusiasts out there the pull request can be >>> found at: >>> https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pulls. >>> >>> —————— Start —————- >>> Charter for Working Group >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in >>> April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited >>> deployment. ICE was slow to achieve widespread adoption, as other >>> mechanisms were already being used by the VoIP industry. This >>> situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement >>> in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to >>> standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a >>> NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, >>> and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including >>> a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and >>> response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. The >>> IP addresses and ports provided by each side are paired and tested >>> by peer-to-peer connectivity checks until one of these pair is >>> selected to transport data. ICE follows the end to end principle >>> where the clients themselves discovers, test and choose the network >>> path to use. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on >>> the local or remote side. >>> >>> ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol >>> used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and >>> other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. >>> ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC >>> 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). >>> >>> The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various >>> initiatives to update ICE to make it more suitable for the WebRTC >>> environment but also to all the current usages of ICE. Current work >>> in this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), >>> Trickle ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing >>> that this work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable >>> for changing mobile environments without major changes to the >>> original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items >>> that follow this pattern. >>> >>> ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of >>> network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and >>> related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely >>> synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid >>> interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to >>> increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with >>> network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, >>> but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and >>> prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the >>> application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure >>> what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the >>> application working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, >>> P2PSIP). >>> >>> >>> >>> Milestones >>> >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Dual-stack Fairness with ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-dualstack-fairness >>> - Apr 2016 Submit a revision of ICE (RFC 5245) as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-rfc5245bis >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp remains in MMUSIC) >>> - Jan 2016 Submit Trickle ICE as Proposed Standard >>> draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice >>> (draft-ietf-mmusic-trickle-ice-sip remains in MMUSIC) >>> >>> ————— STOP ——————— >>> >>> .-. >>> PĂĄl-Erik >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ice mailing list >>> Ice@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > mmusic mailing list > mmusic@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic From nobody Thu Sep 24 08:12:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B441A21BD; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c-0Zng4GPun7; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A91F41AD359; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.1.3] ([162.216.46.76]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8OFBqFe016058 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:12:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [162.216.46.76] claimed to be [10.10.1.3] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Ari =?utf-8?q?Ker=C3=A4nen?=" Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:12:23 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5602FFC0.2070707@aalto.fi> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> <5602FFC0.2070707@aalto.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: Pal Martinsen , ice@ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, mmusic Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:12:34 -0000 On 23 Sep 2015, at 15:38, Ari Keränen wrote: > Regarding the charter text, I think it looks good, but I'm not sure if > we need the first "history" paragraph. Maybe rather mentioned WebRTC > and it's key role only with other protocols in the later paragraph? On a related note: Barry commented that paragraphs 2 and 3 seem unnecessary for the charter. I tend to agree. But if were were to remove those, I think paragraph 1 would become more important. Thoughts? From nobody Thu Sep 24 08:19:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769DC1B29D3 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dPeNRyilrJ7X for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-f174.google.com (mail-io0-f174.google.com [209.85.223.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06D001B29D0 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iofh134 with SMTP id h134so80053171iof.0 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mOFndCNX5BFQ6tj0UlMkuJMAdBw8mjR/CEgnUT/7C70=; b=JOwbo1JoGTHq9BHRBXirJJD/2ExLrdQBjmXymUK9gRY364vyDK9FNRZPDxbgv/yfiD 0yYr1poJDNCqpGogl8lqFktTjki/HNnbHmcSCZlsD/m5pmXUQYSXfanFt/e+znAy5mrp HZNrHA7zJiL1mRRIFf4+N5YQWYzyfTZGVXWkHQt80own5Bxeyz7gPasnZ2evdcDdPqpc iziRPC7ajGuUsdRaBbmjnVz9wiwW3/wJ5aB6s0ChWZaYdHCna6irbtS9r5v2vWZD08jT Dx7A1NebP8v1sex+jvOVeQioG8V29kkIwp5ptbCgCVHQ5+dwEqLj48920TwnngzsWRYI W8Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmawNI0KNNnUlcopUW4S8I705b8w09pNnCzZBM3eRnPz4lBhrv5gjtRol9yJxsyeyduf/Zi X-Received: by 10.107.160.67 with SMTP id j64mr1114194ioe.128.1443107983133; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local ([2601:282:4201:ef5b:b4f1:9b43:b766:6d96]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 21sm5948923ioo.16.2015.09.24.08.19.41 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:19:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Ben Campbell , =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> <5602FFC0.2070707@aalto.fi> From: Peter Saint-Andre - &yet Message-ID: <5604148C.9050307@andyet.net> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:19:40 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:19:50 -0000 On 9/24/15 9:12 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > On 23 Sep 2015, at 15:38, Ari Keränen wrote: > >> Regarding the charter text, I think it looks good, but I'm not sure if >> we need the first "history" paragraph. Maybe rather mentioned WebRTC >> and it's key role only with other protocols in the later paragraph? > > On a related note: Barry commented that paragraphs 2 and 3 seem > unnecessary for the charter. I tend to agree. But if were were to remove > those, I think paragraph 1 would become more important. IMHO those paragraphs provide useful context (especially for readers who are not deeply familiar with ICE and its history and uses). However, we could probably live without them, too. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://andyet.com/ From nobody Thu Sep 24 08:45:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B701A9145; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tVg08K89VDI7; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 640991A079D; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.1.4] ([162.216.46.192]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8OFjDkK019655 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:45:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [162.216.46.192] claimed to be [10.10.1.4] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Peter Saint-Andre - &yet" Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:45:13 -0400 Message-ID: <578F42FD-8886-4801-BE5D-4E9F0209C626@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5604148C.9050307@andyet.net> References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <94DE3665-DAEC-4AC1-8DBE-F8DAAD10BFE3@nostrum.com> <21F046C4-E543-444A-BB98-06AE5453F01B@cisco.com> <5602FFC0.2070707@aalto.fi> <5604148C.9050307@andyet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: mmusic-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Ari =?utf-8?q?Ker=C3=A4nen?= , mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] [MMUSIC] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:45:34 -0000 On 24 Sep 2015, at 11:19, Peter Saint-Andre - &yet wrote: > On 9/24/15 9:12 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> On 23 Sep 2015, at 15:38, Ari Keränen wrote: >> >>> Regarding the charter text, I think it looks good, but I'm not sure >>> if >>> we need the first "history" paragraph. Maybe rather mentioned WebRTC >>> and it's key role only with other protocols in the later paragraph? >> >> On a related note: Barry commented that paragraphs 2 and 3 seem >> unnecessary for the charter. I tend to agree. But if were were to >> remove >> those, I think paragraph 1 would become more important. > > IMHO those paragraphs provide useful context (especially for readers > who are not deeply familiar with ICE and its history and uses). > However, we could probably live without them, too. (as individual) I think paragraph 2 goes deeper into explaining what ICE is than is needed--perhaps it could be pared down. Paragraph 3 is more about the history and relation to other work. That might have more value for a charter. Ben. From nobody Thu Sep 24 21:06:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5281B3625 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:06:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7sqNwZA6wXg for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU004-OMC4S35.hotmail.com (blu004-omc4s35.hotmail.com [65.55.111.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DF551B3627 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU406-EAS53 ([65.55.111.135]) by BLU004-OMC4S35.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:05:55 -0700 X-TMN: [bcR1su8UFxMc3hwrQtRr5Dt0EM2Bmoth] X-Originating-Email: [bernard_aboba@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Bernard Aboba MIME-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:05:53 -0700 References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <07169C8F-E1B2-46E5-885C-4F77192A211E@cisco.com> <2C64C3EC-6C46-4B4F-86E3-9B338CD102CC@nostrum.com> To: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <2C64C3EC-6C46-4B4F-86E3-9B338CD102CC@nostrum.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2015 04:05:55.0576 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A06F780:01D0F747] Archived-At: Cc: Pal Martinsen , Tirumaleswar Reddy , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 04:06:01 -0000 On 17 Sep 2015, at 2:54, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >>=20 >> What about ICE continuous nomination ? [BA] ICE continuous nomination is an aspect of Trickle ICE, in that it is su= pported in some implementations and the existing Trickle ICE draft and WEBRT= C/ORTC APIs permit it. So I would argue that this is not new work, but rath= er an aspect of existing work that may not be well understood.=20 Similarly, "passive aggressive" nomination is not new - the behavior is base= d on existing text in RFC 5245 as well as RFC 5245bis. The major question is= not about new text, but the consequences of existing text. =20 Since no new documents are required to support these implemented behaviors, t= he ICE WG Charter really has no ability to "remove" these items without aban= doning the core work items. However, it can and probably should emphasize t= he importance of implementation experience and data analysis so that we can u= nderstand not only what is permitted, but what actually works.=20 From nobody Fri Sep 25 00:08:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3F31A0140 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SD5VkfxzdkDT for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0A4B1A0146 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 00:08:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2402; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1443164885; x=1444374485; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=x3K8UuEOeW2TGDV/W7JwAn5wL753+A9LextP8RD6tks=; b=Wiz+R2V8JymVPnM9b6GcHD1WIGbE3oYwSjkIJmYHV+gdoh1E39K9IQUd mpkIcU6hucNhtoue9bZ2SZNPawXm4qY6+hnaXnFnci/XhqHFIfzyc5V74 5z2uhOYTzj9XbftJB7DYeMPumdLdmwiVRklkeqIxX5QsZwJqXPhLs6zWR k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AOAgAp8gRW/4UNJK1dgySBPQaDJKkdkH0BDYdzAhyBGDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCQBAQEDASMRRQULAgEIGAICJgICAjAVEAIEDgWIGQMKCLdolCABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiBIoVRgg+CboJQggozB4JpL4EUAQSVZwGLHIFugU+ENo1jh0EBHwEBQoIRHIFUcYhngQUBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,585,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="191567810" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Sep 2015 07:08:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t8P785bd014826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:08:05 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 02:08:04 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 02:08:04 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Bernard Aboba Thread-Topic: [Ice] Updated charter Thread-Index: AQHQ8HmqCfVLzJlXnkSqQH7aqk8/F54/oVAAgAENk4CAAmacgIAJ7FCAgAAy5YA= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:08:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <537316C7-310F-477A-A639-B3D2E7655727@cisco.com> <07169C8F-E1B2-46E5-885C-4F77192A211E@cisco.com> <2C64C3EC-6C46-4B4F-86E3-9B338CD102CC@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.103.201] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4FD0AE229E2AF449B714A445B84ECF6B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ben Campbell , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" , "ice@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ice] Updated charter X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:08:07 -0000 DQo+IE9uIDI1IFNlcCAyMDE1LCBhdCAwNjowNSwgQmVybmFyZCBBYm9iYSA8YmVybmFyZF9hYm9i 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bGQgd2UgYWRkIG1vcmUgdGV4dCBleHBsYWluaW5nIHRoZSBpbXBvcnRhbmNlIG9mIElDRSBtZXRy aWNzIGFuZCBhbmFseXNpcz8NCg0KU3VnZ2VzdGlvbjoNCuKAnFdvcmsgZm9jdXNpbmcgb24gY29s bGVjdGluZyBJQ0UgbWV0cmljcyBhbmQgYW5hbHlzaXMgb2YgaG93IElDRSBiZWhhdmVzIGluIHRo ZSB3aWxkIGFyZSBlbmNvdXJhZ2VkLuKAnQ0KDQouLS4NClDDpWwtRXJpaw== From nobody Fri Sep 25 02:18:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B7F1A026C; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 02:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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Thread-Topic: ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) Thread-Index: AQHQ93MlxzAmLp9sPUWiA0FY3Fud+Q== Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:18:30 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.103.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C5E17AE1DDED4FC18BA6D2D811B77FFDciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: mmusic Subject: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:18:35 -0000 --_000_C5E17AE1DDED4FC18BA6D2D811B77FFDciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FD431A9147; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79a26d00000149a-c9-560570bb1345 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 11.FB.05274.BB075065; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from o73.nomadiclab.com (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:05:15 +0200 To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Ari_Ker=c3=a4nen?= Message-ID: <560570BA.3040604@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 19:05:14 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvje7uAtYwgxl9KhbfLtRaTF3+mMXi /fWVLA7MHlN+b2T1WLLkJ1MAUxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxom3Z5kLVspVLD4X2sB4VKKLkZND QsBEYvLsHnYIW0ziwr31bF2MXBxCAkcZJeYsbWKGcNYxSjw995ARpEpYwE5i349/LCC2iECI xK+z81i7GDmAimwkrq2zAQkzC8hIzDjbyARiswnYSvxu3wNm8wpoS0xYe4UNxGYRUJW4uPU1 K4gtKpAm8e7aI6gaQYmTM5+AjecE6l297A4zyHhmAXuJB1vLIMbLSzRvnc0MYgsBjbn67xXj BEbBWUi6ZyF0zELSsYCReRWjaHFqcVJuupGxXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZGYMAe3PJbdQfj5TeO hxgFOBiVeHgXrGIJE2JNLCuuzD3EKM3BoiTO28z0IFRIID2xJDU7NbUgtSi+qDQntfgQIxMH p1QDY3nj+kuv4pOuN0SwNS5zmuRttKnISipQ5sz3u6dXmc9Zdylsl8oN9uWH1poelPzGkZn8 Sa/1XWvX38ZVB7lCvlyR2uK6q1thw92bJYYtaz+fsV7dUp6m5LDn0OqUoFlJGcu3dWkHPI/N F7xrkWBc4RLmc8jmocZk5zN/AzkzJh7/V3vSPdxTUomlOCPRUIu5qDgRAJm4T7I5AgAA Archived-At: Cc: mmusic Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 16:05:21 -0000 On 25/09/15 12:18, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > Hi, > > Based on mailing-list discussions i propose the following changes: > (A pull request can be found at: https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pull/5) This works for me. I added couple of editorial comments in the github pull request. Cheers, Ari > - Merge section 1 and 3. Moved former 2 to 1. > Better introduction to what ICE is and having all the history in the > same section. The intended effect of the edit is to emphasise the > versatility of ICE and maybe attract more “network” people to attend > join the wg. > > - Rewrote the start of the goal section to pass strict parsers. > “The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in.” > > I wanted to remove webRTC from the sentence. If WG FOO comes with the > same amount of positive energy to help improve ICE I think it would > deserve to get the same amount of attention. > > > The charter would then look like: > > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response > messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. It makes no > assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited > deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory > to implement > in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally > defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). > Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb > (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol > have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media > protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in. Current work in > this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle > ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for changing > mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE RFC. The > ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this pattern. > > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely > synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid > interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to increase > the interaction with other working groups dealing with network protocols > closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but not limited to; > issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and prefixes, QoS, transport > selection and congestion control. From the application side, the users > of ICE, there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually > usable. Getting input from the application working groups will be > helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP, PPSP). > > > .-. > Pĺl-Erik > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Mon Sep 28 12:54:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 311441B2C40; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nc3AZRdlpj92; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76A291B2C41; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 12:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8SJsPZZ015210 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:54:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:54:25 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 19:54:51 -0000 I think this version looks good enough for the IESG internal review. Unless I see an objection really soon now, I will update the charter in the datatracker to match. Thanks! Ben. On 25 Sep 2015, at 4:18, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > Hi, > > Based on mailing-list discussions i propose the following changes: > (A pull request can be found at: > https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pull/5) > > - Merge section 1 and 3. Moved former 2 to 1. > Better introduction to what ICE is and having all the history in the > same section. The intended effect of the edit is to emphasise the > versatility of ICE and maybe attract more “network” people to > attend join the wg. > > - Rewrote the start of the goal section to pass strict parsers. > “The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in.” > > I wanted to remove webRTC from the sentence. If WG FOO comes with the > same amount of positive energy to help improve ICE I think it would > deserve to get the same amount of attention. > > > The charter would then look like: > > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and > response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. It > makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote > side. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited > deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory > to implement > in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally > defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC > 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), > RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment > protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime > media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in. Current work in > this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle > ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for > changing mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE > RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this > pattern. > > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely > synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid > interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to > increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with > network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but > not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and > prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the > application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what > is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application > working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP, PPSP). > > > .-. > PĂĄl-Erik > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Mon Sep 28 18:28:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9B71B2D11; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 18:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z1lPdfJyrf9N; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 18:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A9FD1B2D15; Mon, 28 Sep 2015 18:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t8T1RpCI042591 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:28:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Pal Martinsen" , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:27:51 -0500 Message-ID: <00A515CD-A0C7-40D1-9CC5-A62440CD06A1@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5107) Archived-At: Cc: mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 01:28:07 -0000 I went ahead and updated this in the tracker, since the IESG review is coming up soon. I made a few of very minor edits. Please take a look and let me know asap if anything doesn't look right. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ice/ Thanks! Ben. On 28 Sep 2015, at 14:54, Ben Campbell wrote: > I think this version looks good enough for the IESG internal review. > Unless I see an objection really soon now, I will update the charter > in the datatracker to match. > > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On 25 Sep 2015, at 4:18, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Based on mailing-list discussions i propose the following changes: >> (A pull request can be found at: >> https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pull/5) >> >> - Merge section 1 and 3. Moved former 2 to 1. >> Better introduction to what ICE is and having all the history in the >> same section. The intended effect of the edit is to emphasise the >> versatility of ICE and maybe attract more “network” people to >> attend join the wg. >> >> - Rewrote the start of the goal section to pass strict parsers. >> “The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various >> initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability >> and consistency in the environments ICE operates in.” >> >> I wanted to remove webRTC from the sentence. If WG FOO comes with the >> same amount of positive energy to help improve ICE I think it would >> deserve to get the same amount of attention. >> >> >> The charter would then look like: >> >> Charter for Working Group >> >> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a >> NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, >> and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including >> a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and >> response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. It >> makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or >> remote side. >> >> Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in >> April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited >> deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is >> mandatory to implement >> in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to >> standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally >> defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC >> 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), >> RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media >> establishment protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by >> non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC >> 6940). >> >> The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various >> initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability >> and consistency in the environments ICE operates in. Current work in >> this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), >> Trickle ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing >> that this work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable >> for changing mobile environments without major changes to the >> original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items that >> follow this pattern. >> >> ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of >> network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and >> related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely >> synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid >> interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to >> increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with >> network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, >> but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and >> prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the >> application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what >> is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application >> working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP, PPSP). >> >> >> .-. >> PĂĄl-Erik >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice From nobody Tue Sep 29 03:36:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE22D1A0083; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 03:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j1NchI6LRpK1; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 03:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [173.246.102.69]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D771A001D; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 03:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:a539:618b:e94c:b0e8] (unknown [IPv6:2602:61:753a:ca00:a539:618b:e94c:b0e8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BCCA200AE; Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:36:10 +0200 (CEST) To: Ben Campbell , Pal Martinsen References: <00A515CD-A0C7-40D1-9CC5-A62440CD06A1@nostrum.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: <560A6998.7000108@acm.org> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 04:36:08 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00A515CD-A0C7-40D1-9CC5-A62440CD06A1@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: mmusic , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 10:36:15 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Looks good to me. Thanks. On 09/28/2015 07:27 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > I went ahead and updated this in the tracker, since the IESG review is coming up soon. I made a few of very minor edits. Please take a look and let me know asap if anything doesn't look right. > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ice/ > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On 28 Sep 2015, at 14:54, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> I think this version looks good enough for the IESG internal review. Unless I see an objection really soon now, I will update the charter in the datatracker to match. >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >> On 25 Sep 2015, at 4:18, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Based on mailing-list discussions i propose the following changes: >>> (A pull request can be found at: https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pull/5) >>> >>> - Merge section 1 and 3. Moved former 2 to 1. >>> Better introduction to what ICE is and having all the history in the same section. The intended effect of the edit is to emphasise the versatility of ICE and maybe attract more “network” people to attend join the wg. >>> >>> - Rewrote the start of the goal section to pass strict parsers. >>> “The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability and consistency in the environments ICE operates in.” >>> >>> I wanted to remove webRTC from the sentence. If WG FOO comes with the same amount of positive energy to help improve ICE I think it would deserve to get the same amount of attention. >>> >>> >>> The charter would then look like: >>> >>> Charter for Working Group >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a dual stack address selection technique that works by including a multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. It makes no assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. >>> >>> Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement >>> in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). >>> >>> The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability and consistency in the environments ICE operates in. Current work in this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for changing mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE RFC. The ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this pattern. >>> >>> ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to increase the interaction with other working groups dealing with network protocols closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but not limited to; issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and prefixes, QoS, transport selection and congestion control. From the application side, the users of ICE, there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually usable. Getting input from the application working groups will be helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP, PPSP). >>> >>> - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWCmmYAAoJECnERZXWan7Eod4QAKHNXxHQ87Mpdh8BBdGn1NMQ DaEKMF779zdxSqTTd+rSHz1Xv2yTKE1gaTRwRI+oli0HRg2/Kyqh59vNEQ/yPfqG 6MvspVR9F70n3Gndlr5LM9aEDAHkBA+O7bcWce/7xO7SM10zICVlnvYQFgaXgcU0 iXxgX5+6OJtWbIA+gkyfmPBWhZ4X4ih09RqJRPF5jLvxQ+W0pRfDckEq18djrunM V5b1oGQqOwGQC1JIT7Zo2keAZHB+v0pg13Gex7RHi9QshLYKTWtvPA+OyfjpXlH8 YB3yNgllTuTl2AofEVjYSyBFd7ztqOWIG47FcPZJ8lpfBr2AgNFPK8GQNl8odEtk +dT9FMz95oPy/593lzHWOY3PjCw9CTL8u4C1L4c1VUTMKiVftnH2Qi5vYGxbU0D6 Xf9PrZfFrojVX8AwX+yByp/hdziRE8jyRN4NBIgiN+s3olcuJq3PYmyvyBXduvKM 8nZxXS+SkhXWSDxStyabpHU9Sy43w0cG/SvFfAsb4Qk/wlO+thS+4vsqZZ78jQhQ qtJ7wwS4O2zRfBVhbgo8r6fgjPfX4TqnLOUfOZSG05vhm3DY2HNh5qxjBzYLau6/ TOgWPSflKQceJqcPVi0pD4RTaxzG0EpAk2ecR3sPxmGWDNFkzk2dySVoDaECG2N9 UHO0voemdBmPAWSaoaaP =2ol6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Wed Sep 30 08:04:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B691B5E34; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXoCmFBplBvO; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E4A1B5908; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 08:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69007C5CE1; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:04:51 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nkthpQhziYDu; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.17] (unknown [188.113.88.47]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 943447C5CE0; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:04:50 +0200 (CEST) To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , "ice@ietf.org" References: From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: <560BFA12.9060908@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 17:04:50 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: mmusic Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE WG Charter version 2 (Proposed changes) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 15:04:56 -0000 I like this charter. Only one linguistic comment: "It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for changing > mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE RFC." Everything before "this work" is linguistic fluff. Can we simply say "This work will make ICE ...."? Den 25. sep. 2015 11:18, skrev Pal Martinsen (palmarti): > Hi, > > Based on mailing-list discussions i propose the following changes: > (A pull request can be found at: https://github.com/petithug/icewg/pull/5) > > - Merge section 1 and 3. Moved former 2 to 1. > Better introduction to what ICE is and having all the history in the > same section. The intended effect of the edit is to emphasise the > versatility of ICE and maybe attract more “network” people to attend > join the wg. > > - Rewrote the start of the goal section to pass strict parsers. > “The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in.” > > I wanted to remove webRTC from the sentence. If WG FOO comes with the > same amount of positive energy to help improve ICE I think it would > deserve to get the same amount of attention. > > > The charter would then look like: > > Charter for Working Group > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) is at the same time a NAT > traversal technique, a multihomed address selection technique, and a > dual stack address selection technique that works by including a > multiplicity of IP addresses and ports in both the request and response > messages of a connectivity establishment transaction. It makes no > assumptions regarding network topology on the local or remote side. > > Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in > April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited > deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory > to implement > in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to > standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally > defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). > Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb > (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocol > have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media > protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940). > > The goal of the ICE Working Group is to consolidate the various > initiatives to update and improve ICE, and to help ensure suitability > and consistency in the environments ICE operates in. Current work in > this area includes an updated version of the ICE RFC (ICEbis), Trickle > ICE and dualstack/multihomed fairness. It is worth noticing that this > work will make ICE more flexible, robust and more suitable for changing > mobile environments without major changes to the original ICE RFC. The > ICE workgroup will consider new work items that follow this pattern. > > ICE is an application controlled protocol that leverages a set of > network defined protocols. The STUN (RFC 5389), TURN (RFC 5766) and > related protocol work done in the TRAM working group must be closely > synchronized with the work in this working group. To avoid > interoperability issues and unwanted behavior it is desired to increase > the interaction with other working groups dealing with network protocols > closer to the wire. Example of such work may be, but not limited to; > issues regarding multi-homing, multi subnet and prefixes, QoS, transport > selection and congestion control. From the application side, the users > of ICE, there is a need to make sure what is specified is actually > usable. Getting input from the application working groups will be > helpful (RTCWEB, HIP, MMUSIC, P2PSIP, PPSP). > > > .-. > Pĺl-Erik > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > From nobody Wed Sep 30 20:23:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A6E1A1A47; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id STDQBIS2glrS; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CEB81A1A43; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 20:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t913NhEE019369 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:23:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Kathleen Moriarty" Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 22:23:43 -0500 Message-ID: <4A271C28-E434-42E4-A138-8FE202BD5BF4@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <20150930235813.2949.26662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150930235813.2949.26662.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5141) Archived-At: Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, The IESG , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on charter-ietf-ice-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 03:23:54 -0000 On 30 Sep 2015, at 18:58, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The charter is fine as-is, but I would have expected some mention of > security as the referenced RFC goes into detail about a number of > possible attacks. I put this down as no objection since much of the > solution will rely on the protocol this is used for - WebRTC or SIP in > the case of the referenced RFC. As long as security is addressed in > drafts produced, maybe mention isn't needed in the charter. Hi Kathleen, IMO, RFC 5245, and related drafts, have historically addressed security in some depth. I don't expect anything in this charter is likely to change that. We could add some text about security, but I think it would fall into the "all WGs need to address security" sort of thing. Is there something specific you had in mind? Thanks! Ben. From nobody Wed Sep 30 21:03:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B03B1AD0B0; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:03:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XPJsMuZcs_op; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB9A51AD0B3; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t91434Gv022767 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:03:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Brian Haberman" Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:03:03 -0500 Message-ID: <93848DB8-2CDB-4EE0-BCB2-F712868586A1@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <20150930165745.2016.12866.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150930165745.2016.12866.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5141) Archived-At: Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, The IESG , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Brian Haberman's No Objection on charter-ietf-ice-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 04:03:08 -0000 On 30 Sep 2015, at 11:57, Brian Haberman wrote: > Brian Haberman has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-ice-00-03: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-ice/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just a question for my own edification... How does the address > selection > mechanism in ICE work/play with the address selection done at the IP > layer? We have address selection mechanisms described in RFCs 6724 > and > 6555 (and others) and address selection issues/requirements described > in > RFCs 5220 and 5221. Not sure how all those fit with a higher-layer > protocol making similar decisions. You don't ask easy questions, do you :-) I was hoping one of the really deep ICE experts would jump in (A little help, guys?) but I will give it a shot: There are some similarities between ICE and some of the general address-selection rules in that an ICE implementation has to make some similar choices. There's some similarity with the happy-eyeball's "try everything and see what works" model. I think the key differences are threefold (not counting the fact that ICE predates 6724 and 6555 :-) ): -- ICE is historically about NAT traversal. This has a few implications: It is concerned with address:port pairs, not just addresses. Candidates often represent things like a direct path to a native address/port, a NAT address/port, and an address/port at a TURN relay. These need to be prioritized just like with the address selection mechanisms--but with active connectivity checks to speed up the selection process. -- ICE is designed to be used with real-time signaling protocols (e.g. SIP, WebRTC, xmpp). These allow endpoints to express explicit preferences about candidate priority, rather than static rules. -- ICE connectivity checks are also used to by WebRTC to let endpoints express consent to receive media. Does any of this help? Thanks! Ben. From nobody Wed Sep 30 21:07:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81CC11A916F; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ohOybGvhEt34; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82AF21A9168; Wed, 30 Sep 2015 21:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.23] (cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id t91479So023161 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:07:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-119-203-4.tx.res.rr.com [70.119.203.4] claimed to be [10.0.1.23] From: "Ben Campbell" To: "Brian Haberman" Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:07:09 -0500 Message-ID: <9195C610-4847-4F45-849C-2F7964D260F5@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <93848DB8-2CDB-4EE0-BCB2-F712868586A1@nostrum.com> References: <20150930165745.2016.12866.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <93848DB8-2CDB-4EE0-BCB2-F712868586A1@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.2r5141) Archived-At: Cc: alissa@cooperw.in, The IESG , ice@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ice] Brian Haberman's No Objection on charter-ietf-ice-00-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2015 04:07:13 -0000 On 30 Sep 2015, at 23:03, Ben Campbell wrote: > I think the key differences are threefold (not counting the fact that > ICE predates 6724 and 6555 :-) ): > > -- ICE is historically about NAT traversal. This has a few > implications: It is concerned with address:port pairs, not just > addresses. Candidates often represent things like a direct path to a > native address/port, a NAT address/port, and an address/port at a TURN > relay. These need to be prioritized just like with the address > selection mechanisms--but with active connectivity checks to speed up > the selection process. > > -- ICE is designed to be used with real-time signaling protocols (e.g. > SIP, WebRTC, xmpp). These allow endpoints to express explicit > preferences about candidate priority, rather than static rules. > > -- ICE connectivity checks are also used to by WebRTC to let endpoints > express consent to receive media. > > Does any of this help? Oops, missed one (There are _four_ key differences...) -- ICE is designed for real-time media applications, where the user experience is badly impacted if you have noticeable delay between signaling a session, and actually getting media to flow.