From nobody Tue Feb 12 17:37:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B5A130EE2 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eskYpk1oePxm for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x12c.google.com (mail-it1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CBE2130EE1 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id p4so611310itm.0 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=jhw3gPK3F+/xLH8FQHxYZ8KNFQJ7iOjPf+0481Y0tBo=; b=XK82y6HqO6oz19o8iU2VhxoLwWGFOu3YG3QrFEIbDbSnZevDoFxP/bij7+yNofKJAg 99dioCNnehXA+sj9Zy/1GaUXPnHVLaiH/1egaoBla42XmeYyMd4hJJQUpRoie5HLqEgE /9CIn0uxLmhCgLeMRRBhuab/SA+oK7vPiz2l9z2745Z3ImdfVbfnM4FXKtmcvZzirh1f maIfFqhRLzTUSBOvDb8VrChjMgKmJcHHbiqxqlxFMgdpMsRPbA6nXNuosxyda6nPJ/Zl WrVButaTj0trT59wmFrX5haG/Br3uKB6MAJh7tPQ4Wvb+lomvWPpYsFg7iw5sDv0UbZ1 u/Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=jhw3gPK3F+/xLH8FQHxYZ8KNFQJ7iOjPf+0481Y0tBo=; b=PwpmUABfE6/DpFO6mc9qiHf2oucDlwj3e6h5oaDhfqoLvab1yc+vkSxzjRQigmaRIw L3DOW8FE1POB5IS4Wh0JZv5zz/kriB7omFWJZER4+oz4grgJNCRzd6sEtf4Y0L2nlq4r CFqOsCxan7/ScM5F3c/eJ6j2hOOURi5xKxrycfBxN2NdMxkXcdoR1mJzupZXkyTZWBer J1mYlZfYuu/FZcLtuxcshRC1qEIj4ioMPQSITM9SaKhaiOtR76dX6gNk44oG8/A4CWr/ E57tWNEP1pqVEeHhjwIoSwDof/AaIfnMZTc8lu1cIkoKc31iAjXIUnibLlc6PWY1qxeF 2F9w== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubTHx4IsDi0Vj25HryYPkZWJJHzveOb2r/INq2CkelXbIKzWchv uo2kYk9DgY8amgcOutD1WnsHF1ySm83KQXjINa9PkDV1vsHtiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbYDMUjb5iKIEu8z1A/AWa7W9dg8xnxUSiuihs7wrwDAoqnrdNyNQIepwscsHszYD7UsBJ2+4oFCOoEfAUQSJU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:9418:: with SMTP id v24mr3451661ion.181.1550021874779; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:37:42 -0800 Message-ID: To: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003df4cc0581bc97ff" Archived-At: Subject: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 01:37:58 -0000 --0000000000003df4cc0581bc97ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate functionality in Chrome, we became aware of a situation with ICE that probably needs to be corrected, perhaps in -trickle. In a case where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its candidates are not understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint will not be able to form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local addresses. This situation does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the expectation from a quick re-read is that ICE would go directly to the Failed state. However, if the endpoint simply waited for a certain amount of time, it could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the initiator, and then proceed normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add some text to -trickle that says that implementations should not conclude ICE processing immediately once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead should wait a minimum of one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates to be generated. Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like the most expedient place to address this issue? More details on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidate is not understood by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go to the failed state): https://groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT9TWtFgAJ --0000000000003df4cc0581bc97ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate functionality in C= hrome, we became aware of a situation with ICE that probably needs to be co= rrected, perhaps in -trickle.=C2=A0

In a cas= e where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its candidates are not= understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint will not be able to= form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local addresses. This situatio= n does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the expectation from a quick= re-read is that ICE would go directly to the Failed state.

However, if the endpoint simply waited for a certain amount = of time, it could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the initiator, and t= hen proceed normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add some text to -tric= kle that says that implementations should not conclude ICE processing immed= iately once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead should wait a mini= mum of one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates to be generated.=

Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like the most expedie= nt place to address this issue?
=C2=A0
More det= ails on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidate is not understo= od by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go to the failed sta= te):=C2=A0https:= //groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT9TWtFgAJ
=
--0000000000003df4cc0581bc97ff-- From nobody Tue Feb 12 17:47:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432AC130DE4 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLwJ4pTWsx_s for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBD781295EC for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id b5so376570plr.4 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Dcrwj2qCHbNXHrz/UuYQAhh507rncwHXELR6msuFenA=; b=g7awNNj8l7TKQRCTf4QUwfGFnUOzmbWgp7nzoA5xbOlb1DtqhmrkJU6kgpW2CXGnwR Srxvjs13PCqPxd2v9AcHzcBvg4Ph9KIT6jhT9iTzt9m/Y2UxlptifYwH7NPtF55B24Pd oHiiZYE8LCz464EyYCg0AKJWc+/pfvO9FPCfZfz3wHjQWvL/U7s/GXaBTIc3ETtF/JLL z3o80eED0QUnwXrkiWfROuRj0PXUskvQ7kVVCIv7RLB4bsLwO1+Zz3zI30QD1ra5U8Yc jsuHVLrgJVzhKkeqqB9RadXSbgaKm5mHL4L2EI6CBx9KHrVtm1CoK3YnEgyIpUA8IfB7 7qrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Dcrwj2qCHbNXHrz/UuYQAhh507rncwHXELR6msuFenA=; b=GrQgqrjwPPMl5tHye81Hn97OdHudFoQoIexh6Wz0lYi00c7IkHwuud6xUfj2JVYhOY ntypHR8cCDXoE839yFkXmVFur1detfNh2HyItM0WVNiHVc+71vj6BpCLz2vYCHpaD17h Kadohdrtik/5hyyUnuzQJAh0bQrupUnthNhHvmTerfEcv+z1fZzAe6fqRsNJRwTDxi5x bPqSsWfb6piRpdwwNGIk3URUGQUXY73HH6iLORtx62dpG7NSjP/b5ih4biGjk8ZYd/3Y gn6fqo8dGwC3u65+039qsuX0EWBelGC41upOy8FM8UyXtL/6WVSFQvlfT50PA4hT553p hZkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYXxtzA1SVF9dmETRRQVTsNIlfiLUgM0gHfxsW8u3Xjsi+YbHXa ewSuz6N8TL91UdJUD56m8Qb/sjdBetc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ib1wakpFa/N40y0fCPofRUdtPNNtGmK07kZ9s6a26ToZemRpfdJ3sik9vvDgXptlpXfE7ot+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:28e6:: with SMTP id f93mr6992353plb.239.1550022452115; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-f169.google.com (mail-pl1-f169.google.com. [209.85.214.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x2sm24299582pfx.78.2019.02.12.17.47.31 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id s1so361623plp.9 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:31 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:48c8:: with SMTP id u8mr6744567plh.79.1550022450967; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:47:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 20:47:19 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000957c4d0581bcb9b8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 01:47:35 -0000 --000000000000957c4d0581bcb9b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I was planning to propose some language related to this in mmusic-ice-sip-sdp, specifically related to handling non-trickle cases. I wanted to add language that if all remote candidates in session description are discarded, either due to being candidates with FQDN connection-addresses which failed to resolve or due to being candidates with unsupported address family, then ICE agent MUST not go immediately into Failed state and must continue to wait for at least one STUN timeout for possible incoming STUN binding requests, which can generate peer-reflexive candidates. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:38 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate functionality in Chrome, we > became aware of a situation with ICE that probably needs to be corrected, > perhaps in -trickle. > > In a case where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its > candidates are not understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint > will not be able to form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local > addresses. This situation does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the > expectation from a quick re-read is that ICE would go directly to the > Failed state. > > However, if the endpoint simply waited for a certain amount of time, it > could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the initiator, and then proceed > normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add some text to -trickle that > says that implementations should not conclude ICE processing immediately > once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead should wait a minimum of > one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates to be generated. > > Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like the most expedient place to > address this issue? > > More details on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidate is not > understood by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go to the > failed state): > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT9TWtFgAJ > _______________________________________________ > Ice mailing list > Ice@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice > --000000000000957c4d0581bcb9b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was planning to propose some language related to this in= mmusic-ice-sip-sdp, specifically related to handling non-trickle cases. I = wanted to add language that if all remote candidates in session description= are discarded, either due to being candidates with FQDN=C2=A0=C2=A0connect= ion-addresses which failed to resolve or due to being candidates with unsup= ported address family, then ICE agent MUST not go immediately into Failed s= tate and must continue to wait for at least one STUN timeout for possible i= ncoming STUN binding requests, which can generate peer-reflexive candidates= .

Regards,
_____________
Ro= man Shpount


On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:38 PM Justin Ube= rti <juberti=3D40google.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate f= unctionality in Chrome, we became aware of a situation with ICE that probab= ly needs to be corrected, perhaps in -trickle.=C2=A0

<= /div>
In a case where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its c= andidates are not understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint wi= ll not be able to form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local address= es. This situation does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the expecta= tion from a quick re-read is that ICE would go directly to the Failed state= .

However, if the endpoint simply waited for = a certain amount of time, it could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the= initiator, and then proceed normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add s= ome text to -trickle that says that implementations should not conclude ICE= processing immediately once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead s= hould wait a minimum of one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates= to be generated.

Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like= the most expedient place to address this issue?
=C2=A0
<= div>
More details on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidat= e is not understood by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go = to the failed state):=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT= 9TWtFgAJ
_______________________________________________
Ice mailing list
Ice@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice
--000000000000957c4d0581bcb9b8-- From nobody Tue Feb 12 18:01:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED290130EE1 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndND6tRdedEH for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x134.google.com (mail-it1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2A711295EC for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x134.google.com with SMTP id l131so1889636ita.2 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MuBsqmc5/7ColBr7dkZHyX4GxspGPrNs89Xrq5Ue0tY=; b=Y0JivJ5SBaBHuPpNZ5MM9uet3P38236XkmL+Kj9HnN1IHBh2T2cmZdxl/iZMBqO3QY 6E3PgRMLS8dgamOEFGWAmRM0Gr2SCva5k/GzNxTo4zSajsanVbqDG3kwKP0cRhMFQUld hkkj125yLkcjIZrVVqJ8n88b8yzWTD+Kzs00rXVX94g5pOm3GEo2Ej80+sLWI0icJ9YC DiNFBpHUABRKVoLeDaCCJ7AjhJkudYzisT8VRKMfD6ch+ZLt2lN1h6dUnbAzbl49Jq9f RvISxeQfizz4au/tVpsNfwFyqle2GZs8aQRAAiw+i1TGI4K+UKEgwBRqjVKSksXmnGOK y9iA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MuBsqmc5/7ColBr7dkZHyX4GxspGPrNs89Xrq5Ue0tY=; b=qIXsLhwWER9AlA4y8IaCnq0ioyzFvBFsrnAbyomlk7J1aK1KdztWLKQMUr1f6PSyJG qEv0Jbr4/yFdfPuBIIUKrgszN0fAxPfDXX4RJKhVf+/CV6J/wl6aG3ui4alOT87NvPrZ zpaL1z6Dr28WUefNOiX7+82SWl5IBt6IMGZ9MCJEQ4LfGAJELFMqWBdQolvXmldFNHcI 1ONh2cw8YPetwIZmYv89GiABfnd5eX5rJoljoKuQXtaSEFZu489INfBU5CDwVnSoZ4vj ro/lnYfxx8h3RrvnIeckbhz6rZziW4d5T/sfR4LHvJjAXR2eqITafG5B1cevD5+6qe9r vRHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubI4NjLYF0N7zMeWz99uUnumzbW7TJg1y8Y4mB9QJ2DMoHu2I0f Ck9JYB3pHLBPr57heLzwZyiBYvFC8FBIFW74wOSTlmfpFE8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ia0+TSyeSQTSLwo+b0s5P9mkPcODgtB7dmuOnquC1XNXxEtfwsRuhgaE7qsys6QNdJcKvr0tuJdQrja0+oWX2c= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f01a:: with SMTP id w26mr3682019ioc.101.1550023300309; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:01:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035de7a0581bcecbe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 02:01:44 -0000 --00000000000035de7a0581bcecbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to the destination. Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this need to be addressed in a 8445 update? On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 5:47 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > I was planning to propose some language related to this in > mmusic-ice-sip-sdp, specifically related to handling non-trickle cases. I > wanted to add language that if all remote candidates in session description > are discarded, either due to being candidates with > FQDN connection-addresses which failed to resolve or due to being > candidates with unsupported address family, then ICE agent MUST not go > immediately into Failed state and must continue to wait for at least one > STUN timeout for possible incoming STUN binding requests, which can > generate peer-reflexive candidates.. > > Regards, > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:38 PM Justin Uberti 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate functionality in Chrome, we >> became aware of a situation with ICE that probably needs to be corrected, >> perhaps in -trickle. >> >> In a case where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its >> candidates are not understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint >> will not be able to form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local >> addresses. This situation does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the >> expectation from a quick re-read is that ICE would go directly to the >> Failed state.. >> >> However, if the endpoint simply waited for a certain amount of time, it >> could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the initiator, and then proceed >> normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add some text to -trickle that >> says that implementations should not conclude ICE processing immediately >> once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead should wait a minimum of >> one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates to be generated. >> >> Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like the most expedient place >> to address this issue? >> >> More details on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidate is >> not understood by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go to >> the failed state): >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT9TWtFgAJ >> _______________________________________________ >> Ice mailing list >> Ice@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ice >> > --00000000000035de7a0581bcecbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I= think there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.16= 8.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no rout= e to the destination.

Do you think sip-sdp is the right = home for this, or would this need to be addressed in a 8445 update?



On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 5:47 PM Roman Shpou= nt <roman@telurix.com> wrote= :
I was planning to propose some language related to this in mmusic-ice-si= p-sdp, specifically related to handling non-trickle cases. I wanted to add = language that if all remote candidates in session description are discarded= , either due to being candidates with FQDN=C2=A0=C2=A0connection-addresses = which failed to resolve or due to being candidates with unsupported address= family, then ICE agent MUST not go immediately into Failed state and must = continue to wait for at least one STUN timeout for possible incoming STUN b= inding requests, which can generate peer-reflexive candidates..

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount


On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 8:38 PM Justin Uberti <juberti=3D40google.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
During the rollout of mDNS ICE candidate func= tionality in Chrome, we became aware of a situation with ICE that probably = needs to be corrected, perhaps in -trickle.=C2=A0

In a case where the initiator does not supply candidates, or its cand= idates are not understood by the remote endpoint, the remote endpoint will = not be able to form candidate pairs, even if it has viable local addresses.= This situation does not seem to be covered in any spec, and the expectatio= n from a quick re-read is that ICE would go directly to the Failed state..<= /span>

However, if the endpoint simply waited for a = certain amount of time, it could learn peer-reflexive candidates from the i= nitiator, and then proceed normally. Accordingly, perhaps we should add som= e text to -trickle that says that implementations should not conclude ICE p= rocessing immediately once all candidate pairs have failed, and instead sho= uld wait a minimum of one STUN timeout to allow peer-reflexive candidates t= o be generated.

Am I missing anything? Does -trickle seem like t= he most expedient place to address this issue?
=C2=A0
More details on the specific problem we encountered (mDNS candidate = is not understood by an ICE implementation, causing it to immediately go to= the failed state):=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/d/msg/discuss-webrtc/4Yggl6ZzqZk/hihT9TW= tFgAJ
_______________________________________________
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--00000000000035de7a0581bcecbe-- From nobody Tue Feb 12 21:06:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7B8130FEC for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ItXQzTPNiaz7 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4195C130FDC for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id z10so585806pgp.7 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Xt1d7fOt4w7gQNX5ImbtIDMOa9jefHC+myDhE1TXDIc=; b=ZS4KUT69zwfdd/pShJT3VsCwmm0JeN9myLV0K5pE7PqL4KEkGXJD+uFynmopb4qY4R bZUEjzFZ2vFRnOP1WrxpLBOWrQsrDgKiW+2H9Y8A5d6S6pc/h1JnsvqsmY9tFyelR/OK J+xSXpORSFyc5xSUiFu+dWvlq+fL02tt7HWavRcx8XltU3XVeA32AUB0lhsWWbK3wy2B Ax6vg8YWUUaClcLc2y9UPUMx1iFrX7z9DPUVFY8pCogo7MNjd0LGKTfqtaJQvZrWAqzi zZTfIuw84fqX6NJwWsyPrkoCjyr+jBv5gqiVmtJnk/sweRld88H+E19SThvA3ZwY4rLF KwjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Xt1d7fOt4w7gQNX5ImbtIDMOa9jefHC+myDhE1TXDIc=; b=M2lpaXtbarVaBgB6H5woCEr7pJuTIa3YxdyfEHvIyloIkkT9Drxh3AND1abpojGXkY y+h04gZ3UfuITgbPVMknIqCwbkfyRNFNIDyJqxpO5SIttcI0hskg5jE0WmbIdRkzv7nO 7oVnYdOmjQr9m26KGPJB0DGWY5T93dbLJqhhV53hwSoEHLzoHA6gTm8FAAUnxMOB264p b9C9vy2WoJ+g8GWHIZtLQfERoI3CB1dscKvH8i+EsH2TSxfgfpCIw9sOSiSXVpxZ/x7U 47k4oE9LeOZOv/ASVUUPb11goSzemVM+BLL6Gd/sZRogWZHNjSMU//H04B1xszYZ1CfT XFAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYOEqkhx5AQgFQM1SPAhwA7EifBIeATquRoyrK+v+adtNYM9GGh NwXC3WsFohIpXSZt1xk2Er4IHoJvGnw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3Ia4R3+bmkGHV9+z8V67Qxzrvcig3RA7JkaExdqf58RbJOXC0OQkwNmTsc9zxPG3Y3he3AdLlg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ce0e:: with SMTP id y14mr7206282pgf.145.1550034388588; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com (mail-pg1-f174.google.com. [209.85.215.174]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t3sm7113809pga.31.2019.02.12.21.06.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id d72so579460pga.9 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:27 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a63:2e88:: with SMTP id u130mr7255646pgu.9.1550034386807; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:06:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 00:06:14 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003f6a70581bf818b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 05:06:31 -0000 --00000000000003f6a70581bf818b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this need to be > addressed in a 8445 update? > The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote candidate gathering procedures. Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there > could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x > candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to > the destination. > This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request should fail immediately when there is no path to the destination address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something which has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs failed. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --00000000000003f6a70581bf818b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM J= ustin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:

=C2=A0


_____________
Roman Sh= pount
=C2=A0
<= /div> --00000000000003f6a70581bf818b-- From nobody Tue Feb 12 21:27:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231CC12D7F8 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O1lBGdtJB0ds for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x12c.google.com (mail-it1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D8A012426E for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id h6so1560783itl.1 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bnXWmpYtL6YuCJKPd0Ie3VrnrW3PUbW5d5iqoy6vghg=; b=W3myPw+kTdRyUaFnbLpaiMznvBhDWw+7kl5tSlpMvqppQbDLGF8X3KCls3kwt5GsVh avnY4H1xkF+wexBWBoD9EKjHhlXThDL+8IFSuLh4YR4IukccYd0lMZ0xlLoNSHcdTBR7 HhatWw6Q4t14S8mCYWPGnroszeM6JZv97ew27ipDIenEN2YT74NkUmMMXamgQZYoubku QXHWqQcQX5qoB5VH7MOuxrf0l8RbUkJVSXvfYwvcwUmHPJ5/ua+xWsKbzGakBYRkG/k3 bWLhngAPN/oPUcGGOL3ZB0j96O1y1ZW1tHe9x2PLPbAog8F74HCh2Oi7pY8y3GatmuH9 Br3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bnXWmpYtL6YuCJKPd0Ie3VrnrW3PUbW5d5iqoy6vghg=; b=l7rfnxDkKAaDwPBO/cS4f7l1Qgmp65RiQ5wQo6v1k6m4raLHwlReVQ2hX4thfdhWBN RnydtRYdRfDwg/vtss0LTLdbdw13aym5yGCSX05zjkf1CuftrGrh0ed9vUyj8U1SLd0D oeJvhnvh8ThHZxeHHpNccmRixeUjn+nKCbU8H1tyoVUCT9cF/oSbQHZohjsxVLbzjHxr enHX4qWy2lC1uOPR8pjbWIpysurEBPITR9X8ToR0DUZQ69ttqi2EUIlm06LUQygTT9z4 0YHJBm61GMYmanZFN2j5qYdWGiV9KV6qcIu5186+u7Nfi/22unvUCk2WpQG86zQr04hO GJ4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubDiFdkKkEo/4ZrQ7Aus1ye9jECtj5bw8m95pHGdTY8yomXJWX3 IGtGYgTyRtwuk0McHudY+2jE8Ee4qtEizU8NzCZZuA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZxCA96F8QJIg+be450EDa0dM7Br365Bexx9xs42c7YuRqGNGGShfwAuDxy+QDrCt29VIjea8hANpB1KWFF+/Q= X-Received: by 2002:a24:28cb:: with SMTP id h194mr1238653ith.8.1550035647203; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 21:27:13 -0800 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002481530581bfcca1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 05:27:30 -0000 --0000000000002481530581bfcca1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > >> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this need to be >> addressed in a 8445 update? >> > > The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the initial > remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for FQDN > resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate addresses. Because > of this, I thought it would not be out of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp > what ICE agent should do when an empty list of candidates is generated as a > result of initial remote candidate gathering procedures. > > Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there >> could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x >> candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to >> the destination. >> > > This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is anything > in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request should fail > immediately when there is no path to the destination address, but candidate > pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP error, which should cover this > case. Dealing with a situation when all pairs failed immediately due to > hard ICMP errors is something which has nothing to do with initial > candidate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. > > Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE > nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even if > the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs failed. > Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp would suffice until said update. --0000000000002481530581bfcca1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shp= ount <roman@telurix.com> wro= te:
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com= > wrote:
Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or woul= d this need to be addressed in a 8445 update?
<= div>
The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for formin= g the initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for F= QDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate addresses. Bec= ause of this, I thought it would not be out of place to specify in ice-sip-= sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty list of candidates is generated = as a result of initial remote candidate gathering procedures.
Agree with the overall assessment and= solution, although I think there could be other similar scenarios, for exa= mple, a single 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient bec= ause there is no route to the destination.
=C2=A0
This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is a= nything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request should fail= immediately when there is no path to the destination address, but candidat= e pair does fail immediately on=C2=A0a hard ICMP error, which should cover = this case. Dealing with a situation when all pairs failed immediately due t= o hard ICMP errors is something which has nothing to do with initial candid= ate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 8445 update.=C2=A0

Based on this new c= ase, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE nomination process sho= uld not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even if the candidate pair li= st is empty or if all the candidate pairs failed.

Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so pe= rhaps a note in sip-sdp would suffice until said update.=C2=A0
<= /div> --0000000000002481530581bfcca1-- From nobody Wed Feb 13 08:10:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0F9126C7E for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1hkbbv2g_ER for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8AB512426A for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id s198so1341976pgs.2 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telurix-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7pPmVZsTRNOlQui9iqCzzSbZ4cTtWFT9U4syhv6rvgw=; b=007VkbCUM3Q9uwNcQPX2YAzHZ/ixKOCeCk9qUAdEPpvVFILYYmAhhNfrbGNRhieq/+ aTzSStYQ5XugokGaats4nmSvpDkC66yWE2ZuTInqG24f9QFJ58D/Z7QB0wNgj15xitjy vtrbzTH7wcmWZc69gDpW/HyT13JSsFZ/qMihJOWKr5ysSdatoll6ESHiPyx2dKyyqnOE 5MzQX0sC4RtQj4j5aopgduynvnZb38A3H1yWy6YR7SoCROWc0tPh5xH8GgzC59lOz7rj ZcvOKVZRXl3OHtg1TH7mpWhc2BxShGIOTAehAWvSWDeSg+hnPauebmmJBEFgT0u1uW+F CVsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7pPmVZsTRNOlQui9iqCzzSbZ4cTtWFT9U4syhv6rvgw=; b=QRNToGJLPEMeHF4d5O/pzjAx0w4htGEFu0EAwM+0TOrofUKllSJjMYEKJC6UVWKrBx GZ+UIwXRAUlpS0HWq0CxZzwmP6yas4NKVWDG9ViqR7U8NBYXymYm1MCuyhldnIYCFfU4 UgxRap7blMiIV8HrCrpeGhBgtApnIzKM4M8iAnMg1SpiMNPas5gfbp9cYvrSr7H9ursA 2ZaKI0yCyFkJ4MrEr9DFFwEN+ESaqXUXzbvNnuNSnjcHE54A/Cv3oy7FJ7elwtBOIdGD MqVnjzWVT/vOnTm3VB7qUHWq7TkYGA1Ye67W29B0T04zEovAUSIEKmsXLcE5aBChqNaZ synQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZWN3SdRFLEU9u6Lq/apOqWy0lymQgl91mDo1OX9yAC6jLzMvKU FQkby7Dtf/4ucbDurHBXLH9xSYZC+z0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYtckcuXJ9hS0/w7UJkmXx/KaFNqMU7GBmZnYnt81LYkmSlz/j0r8DRIE1eOlO1Duw7qA3ITQ== X-Received: by 2002:a65:5bc4:: with SMTP id o4mr1129981pgr.426.1550074202848; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-f179.google.com (mail-pl1-f179.google.com. [209.85.214.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a15sm24665910pgd.4.2019.02.13.08.10.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id o6so1354483pls.13 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:02 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:981:: with SMTP id 1mr1237860pln.142.1550074201769; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:10:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 11:09:50 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c0c8f0581c8c62e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:10:06 -0000 --0000000000002c0c8f0581c8c62e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 12:27 AM Justin Uberti wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti wrote: >> >>> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this need to >>> be addressed in a 8445 update? >>> >> >> The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the initial >> remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for FQDN >> resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate addresses. Because >> of this, I thought it would not be out of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp >> what ICE agent should do when an empty list of candidates is generated as a >> result of initial remote candidate gathering procedures. >> >> Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there >>> could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x >>> candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to >>> the destination. >>> >> >> This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is >> anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request should >> fail immediately when there is no path to the destination address, but >> candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP error, which should >> cover this case. Dealing with a situation when all pairs failed immediately >> due to hard ICMP errors is something which has nothing to do with initial >> candidate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. >> > >> Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE >> nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even if >> the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs failed. >> > > Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp > would suffice until said update. > I will provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back support of FQDN and empty list handling. Should we add an errata (with wait for documentation update) to RFC 8445 so that implementers would be aware of the empty list issue due to all candidate pairs failing? _____________ Roman Shpount --0000000000002c0c8f0581c8c62e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 12:27 AM = Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com<= /a>> wrote:

On = Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Ubert= i <juberti@googl= e.com> wrote:
Do you think sip-sd= p is the right home for this, or would this need to be addressed in a 8445 = update?

The ice-sip-sdp is = responsible for procedures for forming the initial remote candidate list. I= t is responsible for procedures for FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding= unsupported candidate addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not b= e out of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an e= mpty list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote candidat= e gathering procedures.

= Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there coul= d be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x candidate t= hat is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to the destinat= ion.
=C2=A0
This is actually an interestin= g new case. I do not think there is anything in ICE nomination that states = that STUN binding request should fail immediately when there is no path to = the destination address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on=C2=A0a= hard ICMP error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation wh= en all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something which = has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and probably belongs in = RFC 8445 update.=C2=A0

Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update th= at states ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN t= imeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pai= rs failed.

Agreed. That s= eems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp would suffice u= ntil said update.=C2=A0

I= will provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back support= of FQDN and empty list handling.

Should we add an= errata (with wait for documentation update) to RFC 8445 so that implemente= rs would be aware of the empty list issue due to all candidate pairs failin= g?=C2=A0
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
--0000000000002c0c8f0581c8c62e-- From nobody Wed Feb 13 08:30:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2781275F3 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:30:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CHWf6kZZfG6W for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x12e.google.com (mail-it1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6091271FF for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id x131so5868731itc.3 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:30:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/iFOrfV/lV5Tld9/QZyQRkC9vaIVXwB0r+7yVpIzSP8=; b=OPznzApOjiSFUtWXZxPldySb2L/ojfcpYjaWwpUNqgKnAlIZ8XHyMYr9FKgUs/sqqr u+uVqzERuFTKMFobxdto8c+MjZJUb6HF/ENDTBr3POIQHKV8cq1TRdx0YOjxVT9iDT9X szjPF86h7lgtQCQX5XJ4ikiyb+MR2f5ptqtm/uZNPXi/WLjL1tC8FyYE+53fY+HmJXb5 SW0mLqoo9BdkoZPzpScMfLcpdheZoEjwQjJc45Yx6eUZhI8nBdoxw9j0LeZWlgxxROtN XnVEbbfyJDB5VfloEjbIXQs+yPh9rPgandC+m/ICnarrX8kkqJNPzthX6CREN9gVBRYW k6ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/iFOrfV/lV5Tld9/QZyQRkC9vaIVXwB0r+7yVpIzSP8=; b=DN7hhyKqaNpWNIb5PECQOq4SPf3NXGNmqZBZY0pvAUaX0Bbkw/xhnsYrKvi4ckQT0l dpdbRJqcV6odOJ4P5MBZIW+11qN5wYYXP9ubuqyQ3m/xMvT/Zcx0uPBgGVcFNkmKqVYf QJqZI0hBMo3fZPuclfrP0r53MDbc8rclq2Xr4qghC860kbnQp6ZimomuMEI8yTOwEc7v 76cCn2AurL7BLclb8EEpI4qgbYs16+x3uXZhuf84dWvVZmkLZmyBPN2e8oghSU/TZ4Eo q8hgIK8jTr56rVQ6lBwMqTR+JWYldl52Ulfqi3ujxmiGqHprC67PWbdGsbZR5OwldqOb /mOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuYetIp54B+tJBVYQcUGSSEduRzNu+4fVBtUw9xfg1UKgL88KbuI uK9YgyQSJHMeAkwYlmWh0BgeZUlF74GSdyrmnBelKw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IbTNr/xil3aoI4n/H3/HeLJ/+AOhlaPjYu15PKWosjZ1+C3r0TFWsP/epgWqnasMDRceFGI7WYhlKuKSKQaQCM= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f01a:: with SMTP id w26mr822453ioc.101.1550075406104; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:30:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 08:29:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: Roman Shpount Cc: ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f57cdf0581c90d89" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:30:09 -0000 --000000000000f57cdf0581c90d89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think that's a good idea. On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 8:10 AM Roman Shpount wrote: > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 12:27 AM Justin Uberti wrote: > >> >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this need to >>>> be addressed in a 8445 update? >>>> >>> >>> The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the initial >>> remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for FQDN >>> resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate addresses. Because >>> of this, I thought it would not be out of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp >>> what ICE agent should do when an empty list of candidates is generated as a >>> result of initial remote candidate gathering procedures. >>> >>> Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there >>>> could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x >>>> candidate that is discarded by the recipient because there is no route to >>>> the destination. >>>> >>> >>> This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is >>> anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request should >>> fail immediately when there is no path to the destination address, but >>> candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP error, which should >>> cover this case. Dealing with a situation when all pairs failed immediately >>> due to hard ICMP errors is something which has nothing to do with initial >>> candidate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. >>> >> >>> Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE >>> nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even if >>> the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs failed. >>> >> >> Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp >> would suffice until said update. >> > > I will provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back > support of FQDN and empty list handling. > > Should we add an errata (with wait for documentation update) to RFC 8445 > so that implementers would be aware of the empty list issue due to all > candidate pairs failing? > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > --000000000000f57cdf0581c90d89 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that's a good idea.

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 8:1= 0 AM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.c= om> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 12:27 AM Justi= n Uberti <jubert= i@google.com> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On = Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com> wrote:
Do you think sip-sdp is t= he right home for this, or would this need to be addressed in a 8445 update= ?

The ice-sip-sdp is respon= sible for procedures for forming the initial remote candidate list. It is r= esponsible for procedures for FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsup= ported candidate addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out = of place to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty l= ist of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote candidate gath= ering procedures.

Agree = with the overall assessment and solution, although I think there could be o= ther similar scenarios, for example, a single 192.168.1.x candidate that is= discarded by the recipient because there is no route to the destination.
=C2=A0
This is actually an interesting new = case. I do not think there is anything in ICE nomination that states that S= TUN binding request should fail immediately when there is no path to the de= stination address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on=C2=A0a hard = ICMP error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when all= pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something which has no= thing to do with initial candidate gathering and probably belongs in RFC 84= 45 update.=C2=A0

=
Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that sta= tes ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout= even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs fai= led.

Agreed. That seems l= ike a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp would suffice until s= aid update.=C2=A0

I will = provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back support of FQ= DN and empty list handling.

Should we add an errat= a (with wait for documentation update) to RFC 8445 so that implementers wou= ld be aware of the empty list issue due to all candidate pairs failing?=C2= =A0
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
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bh=zI1d+sq/0q/crysxLleIpbbn9UcaNOk0YrlqtPLcjKk=; b=QQL8qhUasKUPYqvgwshTOv1D8UWY9p0ES8V3WSygD57ob+tVm+avtRihSmW70njI/nw6Ofhc7+SthkUuGNzAMI5gdOTpuwPqPpb7L6RFLP5s42L6AOeJ1EOMuK3YQIDG1Ih4CNWDm892ft9uktupNp8u2oeBrMvIfDtC1pvj3Oc= Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.245.23) by HE1PR07MB4284.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.166.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1622.13; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:37:08 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec90:1d14:9549:fdf0]) by HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec90:1d14:9549:fdf0%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1622.016; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:37:08 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount CC: "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side Thread-Index: AQHUwzzFtJbX8dzl00CtVcBAg9t3CaXc9aKAgAAD9ACAADOfAIAABd2AgACzjACAAAWbAP//4HwA Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:37:08 +0000 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[209.85.215.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w185sm138594pfb.135.2019.02.13.11.55.04 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 11:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id y1so1644844pgk.11 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 11:55:04 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a63:db04:: with SMTP id e4mr2056932pgg.40.1550087703938; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 11:55:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <74D99B9E-0029-48BD-9A4B-3CC36AF080D6@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <74D99B9E-0029-48BD-9A4B-3CC36AF080D6@ericsson.com> From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:54:54 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Justin Uberti , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6cdb50581cbeae8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 19:55:09 -0000 --000000000000f6cdb50581cbeae8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:37 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Regarding the destination-not-reachable (ICMP) case, exactly what do you > suggest to say? > > > I was thinking something along the following lines: During ICE nomination process all candidate pairs can rapidly go into Failed state if ICMP hard error is received on each of them. According to RFC 8445 this should force entire nomination process end with the Failed state. This can be undesirable since it would cause the ICE nomination process to fail too quickly and not provide enough time for peer reflexive candidates to be collected. Once example of such scenario is when client, located on a private network behind NAT sends only host candidates to a server on a public IP. During nomination process on the server side all candidates can immediately fail with ICMP unreachable errors, since server has no path to the client private network. At the same time, if failure were delayed, the nomination would succeed once STUN binding requests from the client are received by the server and one of the peer reflexive candidates is nominated. To avoid this failure, it is suggested that ICE nomination process failure SHOULD be delayed for at least one STUN timeout interval to allow remote STUN binding requests to arrive from the remote side and peer reflexive candidates to be collected. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000f6cdb50581cbeae8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:37 PM C= hrister Holmberg <chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Regarding the destination-not-reachable (ICMP) case,= exactly what do you suggest to say?



I was thinking something along the following lines:

During ICE nomination process all candidate pairs can rapidly go into Fa= iled state if ICMP hard error is received on each of them. According to RFC= 8445 this should force entire nomination process end with the Failed state= . This can be undesirable since it would cause the ICE nomination process t= o fail too quickly and not provide enough time for peer reflexive candidate= s to be collected. Once example of such scenario is when client, located on= a private network behind NAT sends only host candidates to a server on a p= ublic IP. During nomination process on the server side all candidates can i= mmediately fail with ICMP unreachable errors, since server has no path to t= he client private network. At the same time, if failure were delayed, the n= omination would succeed once STUN binding requests from the client are rece= ived by the server and one of the peer reflexive candidates is nominated. T= o avoid this failure, it is suggested that ICE nomination process failure S= HOULD be delayed for at least one STUN timeout interval to allow remote STU= N binding requests to arrive from the remote side and peer reflexive candid= ates to be collected.

Regards,
_____________<= br>Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
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bh=GpclOeIbRM9nyojLPEMfZug3Ky3jZobT1dYTk34LBDw=; b=BiyYGIEGz8bIuZ9YWo1zZ4T8S/X8dFIBavZ2k+xyRjsCw0LS5MA0XBgwtn1S3wwvCOmSbJS555hroKBOf7vV6cGGTmhUKfkN0rNGm6M5DM3BXmi+kTuNKPYam4PSEDyf+K9nUKZ/20avFCoiffS+tD847k6Qe0D63LE+hy/e+0o= Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.170.245.23) by HE1PR07MB1033.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.162.27.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1643.7; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:06:41 +0000 Received: from HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec90:1d14:9549:fdf0]) by HE1PR07MB3161.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ec90:1d14:9549:fdf0%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1622.016; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:06:41 +0000 From: Christer Holmberg To: Roman Shpount CC: Justin Uberti , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side Thread-Index: AQHUwzzFtJbX8dzl00CtVcBAg9t3CaXc9aKAgAAD9ACAADOfAIAABd2AgACzjACAAAWbAP//4HwAgABYywD//8A6gA== Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 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[209.85.210.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q127sm276867pgq.39.2019.02.13.13.26.23 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-f175.google.com with SMTP id g6so1776111pfh.13 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:26:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a62:6453:: with SMTP id y80mr212604pfb.203.1550093182781; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 13:26:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <74D99B9E-0029-48BD-9A4B-3CC36AF080D6@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:26:12 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Justin Uberti , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000874d970581cd3132" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 21:26:27 -0000 --000000000000874d970581cd3132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 4:07 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > I assume this is the text that you suggest to put into an errata? > Yes, this is the text that will go into errata. Because, I don=E2=80=99t think we can put this text in draft-sip-sdp, as it= is > supposed to be aligned with RFC 8445. > For ice-sip-sdp I was planning to suggest the following (and I need more time to fine tune it): When initial set of remote candidates is gathered from the session description, some of the candidates can be discarded. Specifically candidates with FQDN connection-address are discarded if they do not resolve or resolve to more then one address. Also, candidates with unsupported address families are discarded as well. As candidates are discarded it is possible that all remote candidates are discarded and ICE nomination process would start with an empty list of remote candidates. In this case, ICE agent SHOULD NOT fail nomination process immediately and SHOULD continue to receive remote STUN binding request on local candidate addresses for at least one STUN timeout interval. This should allow for STUN binding requests to arrive from the remote party and for the nomination to proceed using peer reflexive candidates. Instead, we need to fix 8445 (using an update draft, errata or whatever), > and then reference that fix in draft-sip-sdp. > We probably need to do both. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount --000000000000874d970581cd3132 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 4:07 PM C= hrister Holmberg <chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

I assume this is the text that you suggest to put in= to an errata?

=C2=A0
Yes, th= is is the text that will go into errata.

Because, I don=E2=80=99t think we can put this text = in draft-sip-sdp, as it is supposed to be aligned with RFC 8445.

=C2=A0
For ice-sip-sdp I was planning = to suggest the following (and I need more time to fine tune it):
=
When initial set of remote candidates is gathered from the s= ession description, some of the candidates can be discarded. Specifically c= andidates with FQDN connection-address are discarded if they do not resolve= or resolve to more then one address.=C2=A0 Also, candidates with unsupport= ed address families are discarded as well. As candidates are discarded it i= s possible that all remote candidates are discarded and ICE nomination proc= ess would start with an empty list of remote candidates. In this case, ICE = agent SHOULD NOT fail nomination process immediately and SHOULD continue to= receive remote STUN binding request on local candidate addresses for at le= ast one STUN timeout interval. This should allow for STUN binding requests = to arrive from the remote party and for the nomination to proceed using pee= r reflexive candidates.

Instead, we need to fix 8445 (using an update draft,= errata or whatever), and then reference that fix in draft-sip-sdp.

=

We probably need to do both.

Regards,
_____________
Roman Shpount
=C2=A0
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Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.local ([76.25.3.152]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k62sm271416ite.3.2019.02.13.14.18.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:18:02 -0800 (PST) To: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount Cc: ice@ietf.org References: From: Peter Saint-Andre Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=stpeter@mozilla.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFonEf4BEADvZ+RGsJoOyZaw2rKedB9pBb2nNXVGgymNS9+FAL/9SsfcrKaGYSiWEz7P Lvc97hWH3LACFAHvnzoktv+4IWHjItvhdi9kUQ3Gcbahe55OcdZuSXXH3w5cHF0rKz9aYRpN jENqXM5dA8x4zIymJraqYvHlFsuuPB8rcRIV9SKsvcy14w9iRqu770NjXfE/aIsyRwwmTPiU FQ0fOSDPA/x2DLjed/GYHem90C5vF4Er9InMqH5KAMLnjIYZ9DbPx5c5EME4zW/d648HOvPB bm+roZs4JTHBhjlrTtzDDpMcxHq1e8YPvSdDLPvgFXDcTD4+ztkdO5rvDkbc61QFcLlidU8H 3KBiOVMA/5Rgl4lcWZzGfJBnwvSrKVPsxzpuCYDg01Y/7TH4AuVkv5Na6jKymJegjxEuJUNw CBzAhxOb0H9dXROkvxnRdYS9f0slcNDBrq/9h9dIBOqLhoIvhu+Bhz6L/NP5VunQWsEleGaO 3gxGh9PP/LMyjweDjPz74+7pbyOW0b5VnIDFcvCTJKP0sBJjRU/uqmQ25ckozuYrml0kqVGp EfxhSKVqCFoAS4Q7ux99yT4re2X1kmlHh3xntzmOaRpcZsS8mJEnVyhJZBMOhqE280m80ZbS CYghd2K0EIuRbexd+lfdjZ+t8ROMMdW5L51CJVigF0anyYTcAwARAQABtCdQZXRlciBTYWlu dC1BbmRyZSA8c3RwZXRlckBtb3ppbGxhLmNvbT6JAlQEEwEIAD4WIQQ1VSPTuPTvyWCdvvRl YYwYf2gUqQUCWicR/gIbIwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRBlYYwY f2gUqdaREAChG8qU1853mP0sv2Mersns8TLG1ztgoKHvMXFlMUpNz6Oi6CjjaMNFhP7eUY4T D43+yQs7f4qCkOAPWuuqO8FbNWQ+yUoVkqF8NUrrVkZUlZ1VZBMQHNlaEwwu1CGoHsLoRohP SiZ0hpmGTWB3V6cDDK4KN6nl610WJbzE9LeKY1AxtePdJi2KM281U0Fz8ntij1jWu0gF2xU4 Sez46JDogHLWKgd0srauhcCVzZjAhiWrXp1+ryzSWYaZO8Kh8SnF1f4o6jtYikMqkxUaI5nX wvD3kNX4AMSkCAZfG7Jcfj/SLDojTcREgO87g7B9bcOOsHN4lj3lHoFV0aXpgPmjfIvAjJHu fHkXZAQAH8w0u9bgJqRn703+A4NPfLopnjegyhlNi7fQ3cMQV1H7Oj7WrB/pCcprx+1u/6Uq oTtDwWh1U5uVthVAI0QojpNWR08zABDX19TlGtVoeygaQV3CAEolxTiYQtCfVavUzUplCZ/t 3v4YiRov+NylflJd+1akyOs1IAgARf444BnoH1fotkpfXNOpp9wUXXwsQcFRdP7vpMkSCkc0 sxPNTVX3ei0QImp4NsrFdaep7LV3zEb3wkAp6KE5Qno4hVVEypULbvB0G6twNZbeRfcs2Rjp jnPb2fofvg2WhAKB20dnRfIfK8OKTD/P+JDcauJANjmekLkCDQRaJxH+ARAApPwkbOTChAQu jMvteb/xcwuL5JZElmLxIqvJhqybV7JknM+3ATyN0CTYQFvPTgIrhpk4zSn0A6pEePdK8mKK 5/aHyd7pr7rLEi1sI/X3UE8ld/E83MExksKrYbs0UX1wSQwYXU6g64KicnuP2Abqg+8wrQ18 1nPcZci9jJI75XVPnTdUpZD5aaQWGp7IJ06NTbiOk30I50ORfulgKoe4m3UfsMALFxIx3pJk oy76xC2tjxYGf+4Uq1M0iK3Wy655GrcwXq/5ieODNUcAZzvK5hsUVRodBq0Lq3g1ivQF4ba7 RQayDzlW6XgoeU49xnCr9XdZYnTnj4iaPmr2NtY6AacBwRz+bJsyugeSyGgHsnVGyUSMk8YN wZHvUykMjH21LLzIUX5NFlcumLUXDOECELCJwewui4W81sI5Sq/WDJet+iJwwylUX22TSulG VwDS+j66TLZpk1hEwPanGLwFBSosafqSNBMDVWegKWvZZVyoNHIaaQbrTIoAwuAGvdVncSQz ttC6KkaFlAtlZt3+eUFWlMUOQ9jxQKTWymyliWKrx+S6O1cr4hwVRbg7RQkpfA8E2Loa13oO vRSQy/M2YBRZzRecTKY6nslJo6FWTftpGO7cNcvbmQ6I++5cBG1B1eNy2RFGJUzGh1vlYo51 pdfSg0U1oPHBPCHNvPYCJ7UAEQEAAYkCPAQYAQgAJhYhBDVVI9O49O/JYJ2+9GVhjBh/aBSp BQJaJxH+AhsMBQkJZgGAAAoJEGVhjBh/aBSpAw0P/1tEcEaZUO1uLenNtqysi3mQ6qAHYALR Df3p2z/RBKRVx0DJlzDfDvJ2R/GRwoo+vyCviecuG2RNKmJbf1vSm/QTtbQMUjwut9mx6KCY CyKwniqdhaMBmjCfV2DB2MxxZLYMtDfx/2mY7vzAci7AkjC+RkSUByMEOkyscUydKC/ETdf9 tvI8GhTY/8Q7JSylS3lQA5pMUHiIf+KpSmqKZeBPkGc7nSKM1w1UKUvFAsyyVsiG6A/hWrTr 7tTQAl7YfjtOGE8n4IKGktvrT99bbh9wdWKZ5FdHUN9hx2Q8VP8+0lR1CH2laVFbEwCOv1vM W4cgQDLxwwpo1iOTdHBVtQDxlQ9hPMKVlB1KP9KjchxuiLc24wLmCjP3pDMml4LQxOYB34Eq cgPZ3uHvJZG309sb2wTMTWaXobWNI++ZrsRD5GTmuzF3kkx3krtrq6HI5NSaemxK6MTDTjDN Rj/OwTl0yU35eJXuuryB20GFOSUsxiw00I2hMGQ1Cy9L/+IW6Dvotd8O3LmKh2tFArzXaKLx /rZyGNurS/Go5YjHp8wdJOs7Ka2p1U31js24PMWO6hf6hIiY2WRUsnE6xZNhvBTgKOY6u0KT V6hTevFqEw7OAZDCWUoE2Ob2/oHGZCCMW5SLAMgp7eihF0kGf2S2CmpIFYXGb61hAD8SqSY7 Fn7V Message-ID: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 15:18:01 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:18:08 -0000 On 2/12/19 10:27 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount > wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti > wrote: > > Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this > need to be addressed in a 8445 update? > > > The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the > initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures for > FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate > addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out of place > to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty > list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote > candidate gathering procedures. > > Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I think > there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single > 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient because > there is no route to the destination. > >   > This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is > anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request > should fail immediately when there is no path to the destination > address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP > error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when > all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something > which has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and > probably belongs in RFC 8445 update.  > > > Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states > ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN > timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the > candidate pairs failed. > > > Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in > sip-sdp would suffice until said update. As noted in your initial message, this can happen in the trickle case of sending zero candidates in the initial ICE description, too. But because there are several situations where this might happen (trickle or not, SIP or not), an update to 8445 is likely the right way to go. A heavy lift, as you say... Peter From nobody Wed Feb 13 14:28:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5EE130DBE for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2JfUmSIurRTF for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9628128CF2 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1DMSg31038760 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:28:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550096924; bh=DzHf/OlRaN/OTtRsE8mNqyr/RAJlHJVPCceScsL7WOs=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=LJqXXjtJlyU21XKRzuFPm+DmQw9P7HEU3hhepNpPPGbd4piDo3GOV0ot79zXcdIiD MQodJ6yBocNZQ9xQ1YMvVpHdUNuf9uzRyUmyFMR0FgLk8dphI92l7LbgOq9t27a6Ay XEbXogUTFqPp3hIWDX+pHqRrvdfGrOy0DIhwkYNI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <9B3D49BA-D86D-4F72-B064-C6CC95D236BD@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_32CF2375-9DBA-48E6-8EB8-7BC5F26FC107"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:28:39 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Justin Uberti , ice@ietf.org To: Roman Shpount References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:28:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_32CF2375-9DBA-48E6-8EB8-7BC5F26FC107 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AD43EB73-5F66-4F52-9045-FF7E1A787450" --Apple-Mail=_AD43EB73-5F66-4F52-9045-FF7E1A787450 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Responding with one point, with AD hat on: > On Feb 13, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Roman Shpount wrote: >=20 > Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states = ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout = even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs = failed. >=20 > Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in = sip-sdp would suffice until said update. >=20 > I will provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back = support of FQDN and empty list handling. >=20 > Should we add an errata (with wait for documentation update) to RFC = 8445 so that implementers would be aware of the empty list issue due to = all candidate pairs failing? >=20 I don=E2=80=99t think an errata report is the appropriate way to handle = this. Errata are intended for use when we discover an error where an RFC = does not reflect the intent of the WG at the time of publication. That = is different from errors where we learn after the fact that we should = have done something differently. An update to 8445 seems like the right way to handle this. That update = could be very short. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_AD43EB73-5F66-4F52-9045-FF7E1A787450 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Responding with one point, with AD hat on:

On Feb 13, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> = wrote:

Based = on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that states ICE = nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN timeout even = if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the candidate pairs = failed.

Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift = though, so perhaps a note in sip-sdp would suffice until said = update. 

I = will provide Suhas with the text to add to ice-sip-sdp to put back = support of FQDN and empty list handling.

Should = we add an errata (with wait for documentation update) to RFC 8445 so = that implementers would be aware of the empty list issue due to all = candidate pairs failing? 


I don=E2=80=99t think an = errata report is the appropriate way to handle this. Errata are intended = for use when we discover an error where an RFC does not reflect the = intent of the WG at the time of publication. That is different from = errors where we learn after the fact that we should have done something = differently. 

An update to 8445 seems like the right way to handle this. = That update could be very short.

Thanks!

Ben.
= --Apple-Mail=_AD43EB73-5F66-4F52-9045-FF7E1A787450-- --Apple-Mail=_32CF2375-9DBA-48E6-8EB8-7BC5F26FC107 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlxkmhcACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1Lnw//bBFUBc5TUBYKI5gufvmME4DHRSwtvnCd5lBwqN/XC9ToZ8lRFq6JjkJ7 LMo37BMDMGM++zTbq+ZEUzm+WmsBOUvjoww4ttiKu9TRI83gMgWs/IT55fETSz2L vki8jqyEsVXLDzeogyNC+o5YABDCgjqQzZxyos3qiIjxqcFSmmcHvB/6GjS9q/if kGU1Fzt65Ni8o0PrQyt0ihnmpsFJRhH7UZZz1eUio1MQkl7ZB4pgCK8luom9KN1G oe+8jW/byCI2IekxFQA5BxRzV/Ph6MdF9t3VCzLjQJXjxaHBPo4mGKGcJyBXazVJ YNr9u0Y1iuua1SyPJujg9xTOxqo/RtAb9rBNN3MmzV4ZCuw9lOu1yToCetVGdzO/ xQK/Uph2a49OMldTM5nqsiT8yfoV7CDqx8W5BTb+xr1c1/kTajP5h/aDCLh5bUIF ovQabnvNT9wbhrMfWhSo+9qQXiqShP496fbHjPZIzvscYnWnSLCk6WfKItsVDDAc mtc4cjGjN/ISfttzat97xmhwqBtkKQe2E6WaMpnOhogq85jnOMbhymwBPycpLPAM 8xY9gDgTySsQnth5iEhnRXIKNdFXzKXnscWLApSxBYz02bPQaGcBI9Cvp4SQ4Uek PFvSiRUh1GDPpvkRoTDrrmraGf+qE6XTL+CyE35RlO8rHcExt58= =Iieq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_32CF2375-9DBA-48E6-8EB8-7BC5F26FC107-- From nobody Wed Feb 13 14:30:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50439130DCB for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:30:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RZNYfuRsy-bm for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F832128CF2 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 14:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1DMUjBD039101 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:30:47 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550097048; bh=g9v7ThXpGDFNAcEBAaLEL+YMq2gZApEV0/9Nka6mU9Q=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=k3l7S6K3whtcVINXG6UJFU0lyVr7GyRjAY7tIkn9fL0QYJtEmWlxqAahuJDRzgkVp UxoHJ+p+Z2bdFCXHtOsTaubfJeqxeVmVVhb16Jwf84FXUfTjDaF9g6+Sj80wiM5U2m L1826zUr49g6r3c6Uxuq6Jbtbh1E3mTPoNtoc9W0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6E79BAC-CEE4-4CC1-8A27-39B86566E373"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:30:43 -0600 In-Reply-To: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> Cc: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount , ice@ietf.org To: Peter Saint-Andre References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:30:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6E79BAC-CEE4-4CC1-8A27-39B86566E373 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 13, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre = wrote: >=20 > On 2/12/19 10:27 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount > > wrote: >>=20 >> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti > > wrote: >>=20 >> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this >> need to be addressed in a 8445 update? >>=20 >>=20 >> The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the >> initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures = for >> FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate >> addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out of place >> to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty >> list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote >> candidate gathering procedures. >>=20 >> Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I = think >> there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single >> 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient = because >> there is no route to the destination. >>=20 >>=20 >> This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is >> anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request >> should fail immediately when there is no path to the destination >> address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP >> error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when >> all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something >> which has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and >> probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. >>=20 >>=20 >> Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that = states >> ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN >> timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the >> candidate pairs failed. >>=20 >>=20 >> Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in >> sip-sdp would suffice until said update. >=20 > As noted in your initial message, this can happen in the trickle case = of > sending zero candidates in the initial ICE description, too. But = because > there are several situations where this might happen (trickle or not, > SIP or not), an update to 8445 is likely the right way to go. A heavy > lift, as you say=E2=80=A6 Why does it need to be that heavy? We=E2=80=99d be talking about no more = than a couple of pages, not counting boiler-plate, right? Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_D6E79BAC-CEE4-4CC1-8A27-39B86566E373 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlxkmpMACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3dyRAAitTxhbccKq99b4GSZaLIpoDiSw549wTMFu7f3fqfVGx8G3+0L2/n3po0 nsgAuAjTOLKDqyE+A9gK3n9rNkioeNhelwMpDWDKRwUN9fgt6EbiJPgX4k0jZsJY ZpSDX86z7j/NjTjdt+b12e6ij94caep7226dYjptHVSse3LSya9ZEVF6BG47Gy2z B+ggekW8loZVpEgFZ6yt6SrDbbXO5zXIrLvs3MLQPu+4O3iay3YSbP87MunPTtWB ipxTei2MqiPQE/nXGuO30cBTI6W7MwOC9iOrvgsnbEZI8FmSdvkxUcOcaEuAR99A XR6ZPyb1ycP9eUpMtYdZGL4frGznoIiJChRxbDJHDpNR3ZGSvyrj1IQRRNapsyCH QOZm/N21+ZnOwcHVxxcUr8h9nj9sb+xkW6vOwaDwTSjqJ7yuba5aYvZsmQwtk6mN xI5dMSleK9B6luja4sw49oOxW1idirxKn7P9++D2HmZ4D8TFFrcrrXCa1L9FXyf/ ja13truv2/x4wzAZEEf0beniVId+OmnmMxNSE7xPBZVeVrwLBsEZ8oa3+Fk4YYUq VyKctLdAxOmKEpITDVkbpFHKOE3Mll7NjmkPp58qvBr1ZccZhZt0c5u8VIR+Jxdq H9fdrITiyBWYBrqV6nJehWJV2QsIhOQm3RMhirTQ4EpxVPWNkwE= =c4Yu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D6E79BAC-CEE4-4CC1-8A27-39B86566E373-- From nobody Wed Feb 13 14:31:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B668F130DBE for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W7oduh48jZLZY7aVfkcxRUEbM5LZwnxDa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:31:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --W7oduh48jZLZY7aVfkcxRUEbM5LZwnxDa Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ui2fppH471yFCUuy1lxP5vomTyD1MUI43"; protected-headers="v1" From: Peter Saint-Andre To: Ben Campbell Cc: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount , ice@ietf.org Message-ID: <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: --ui2fppH471yFCUuy1lxP5vomTyD1MUI43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/13/19 3:30 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 13, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre w= rote: >> >> On 2/12/19 10:27 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount >> > wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti >> > wrote: >>> >>> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this= >>> need to be addressed in a 8445 update? >>> >>> >>> The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the >>> initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures fo= r >>> FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate >>> addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out of place= >>> to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty >>> list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote >>> candidate gathering procedures. >>> >>> Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I thi= nk >>> there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single >>> 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient becau= se >>> there is no route to the destination. >>> >>> >>> This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is >>> anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request >>> should fail immediately when there is no path to the destination >>> address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP >>> error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when= >>> all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something >>> which has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and >>> probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. >>> >>> >>> Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that state= s >>> ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN >>> timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the >>> candidate pairs failed. >>> >>> >>> Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in >>> sip-sdp would suffice until said update. >> >> As noted in your initial message, this can happen in the trickle case = of >> sending zero candidates in the initial ICE description, too. But becau= se >> there are several situations where this might happen (trickle or not, >> SIP or not), an update to 8445 is likely the right way to go. A heavy >> lift, as you say=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Why does it need to be that heavy? We=E2=80=99d be talking about no mor= e than a couple of pages, not counting boiler-plate, right? Someone has to write an I-D. :-) But yeah, should be short and sweet. Peter --ui2fppH471yFCUuy1lxP5vomTyD1MUI43-- --W7oduh48jZLZY7aVfkcxRUEbM5LZwnxDa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEENVUj07j078lgnb70ZWGMGH9oFKkFAlxkmswACgkQZWGMGH9o FKkcGw/+JhYHhFC+jC0UvXyvmPEoqhOO9oO0HgkX3xQlZ5AhYPPHJpzNv1pwfhHz 8Pb7xe7hUQKTTat3+9eofV0Yz7MRbnEcirn3MiPUJoD+n95l4itGeOQFqElYBtF2 Olyx/loDvEWO9h4xADdafkPDxSPagHAuYQFizYhNol4R3ezBuXT3jJ5JuuHfIsHw eg7fi+P03LNQC+Gvy7hBcYQ/LpPLY6q7Lo/5RNZbB/fr5e7e2Yv8LHa+tcWPn9FU OIJGOwkQRsmRzAcb+cxtftUeT1ovLfZtyBYjbdu9k48FWbupU/U2lApwkJ0WcqKD zTHynQq3Z+kc9FuUWYG/TRyDUFJeoDbBuJXJIIKeRwOEWn7gKEnsYCronkGEX9lU HBVeaueNLGQXIr1+hGfHDRyioAYMYaLZISQKPg1OqNM0/yAMgVg6qcdm618g8OGA rXxxMUiG8jW6zNf8QzORaHqUkos/Uk5JfwiyHuOducl2DHS+B+0JRhn9KtrQRigG mVPXeGo7oXEY0eJwBahzBL59QGd0M1IYaS8W09haw/JWSrb4Ztfey2KuePpo49cp 7s+n77GWaj19v01TngaA58+HaExKyUBb0Fw5SXOeeslZWGodWG0WCGdu/ROimO4g RcNiAuXsiO6RCy0HXuJmR9+aumtfdeHtZtEILGOwGrpD5wPLmOc= =clfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W7oduh48jZLZY7aVfkcxRUEbM5LZwnxDa-- From nobody Wed Feb 13 17:49:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0882130E91 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HvoqFqFG0t0F for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x132.google.com (mail-it1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B442130E9B for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x132.google.com with SMTP id p4so8829757itc.4 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r3qX6/lRRHO7wOuT9+KLVzDbUNEh+jYQD2XZitWQ3vw=; b=ucKb310ZEpgZ4xxFYcGLSvklPd1pT0etpPfjHxPF3Mac2bRz520xnA8Wc3M7e25rfD QZu1US768ROjr8p1NOiUG50DBslzL4WuQZUhr2VibhibtKuzL1GDUhLkKBZO8wx7NYUg a2f6h+ogW+UdLyhf03XTw0DD23TrPty55GnsWjIcfTi+m8OpXvtw6+tPBPRjrFsHV1ka DiIe9LuC0CgGT/WuR8coxeUhjlGbmG/EqUFuc2WTa+KObWDtkyKPzYJxijzGP1d9PtjE gqQZPNDX68KmaVkgd0QhoStmSxe0C9+RaXaEngqj55AibHIMLklt+mMqOSkXu0JOI+Bt D47A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r3qX6/lRRHO7wOuT9+KLVzDbUNEh+jYQD2XZitWQ3vw=; b=RqPgmj1+KodNwvVb+VDiMjvXcRhvjnZYqhz9i0QwofhzvV+BoGQR/zrlrkWaOC19oQ 89lJyeRpQhM4MZgxnSLy2Drj5zJmnTiWzIur0uQh17arllZCRC2p0Z8dMeLCYpx2F6vh J46lPmU1/4KNAFj4rswKoPn62rN7I4i2sKlFuj2ocPdgiJA0zNAhHXIVx+2TU9CZFWYK XM4xF5ACtkfeGVGCOZZfwcAC7ES+O1SMedOcHswBpcGzcnsu+bvAvIiceQMfUUFU4YzL CNSOPnlNv3x11lFKqkIBXEKRC8Z5TUaXsXNNtQWzY4kriLv4COh4ZPppuB+o6V/z/gVw BEOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubVu0/ZefERIPBxSS3puUbauFaocdTcAfqE+c2MfZYe6W2vdi9T nZkbeGJkGl4y35NI+mZTsYdIVy1UyFYaqGDFFh2RiQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY6vTcwUcv3CyuXnLUP/3gZfXBrYcqj7kaRrQzqqCVy5Sy9H69MYNkcxvoE/nPQp2xIZ1PO/f653AgHk2aZwUw= X-Received: by 2002:a24:2fd0:: with SMTP id j199mr664449itj.123.1550108973373; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:49:21 -0800 Message-ID: To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8f3530581d0de04" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:49:37 -0000 --000000000000b8f3530581d0de04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 2:31 PM Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 2/13/19 3:30 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 13, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > >> > >> On 2/12/19 10:27 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > >>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Do you think sip-sdp is the right home for this, or would this > >>> need to be addressed in a 8445 update? > >>> > >>> > >>> The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for forming the > >>> initial remote candidate list. It is responsible for procedures fo= r > >>> FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupported candidate > >>> addresses. Because of this, I thought it would not be out of place > >>> to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should do when an empty > >>> list of candidates is generated as a result of initial remote > >>> candidate gathering procedures. > >>> > >>> Agree with the overall assessment and solution, although I thi= nk > >>> there could be other similar scenarios, for example, a single > >>> 192.168.1.x candidate that is discarded by the recipient becau= se > >>> there is no route to the destination. > >>> > >>> > >>> This is actually an interesting new case. I do not think there is > >>> anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN binding request > >>> should fail immediately when there is no path to the destination > >>> address, but candidate pair does fail immediately on a hard ICMP > >>> error, which should cover this case. Dealing with a situation when > >>> all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP errors is something > >>> which has nothing to do with initial candidate gathering and > >>> probably belongs in RFC 8445 update. > >>> > >>> > >>> Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 update that state= s > >>> ICE nomination process should not fail for the duration of STUN > >>> timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty or if all the > >>> candidate pairs failed. > >>> > >>> > >>> Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note in > >>> sip-sdp would suffice until said update. > >> > >> As noted in your initial message, this can happen in the trickle case = of > >> sending zero candidates in the initial ICE description, too. But becau= se > >> there are several situations where this might happen (trickle or not, > >> SIP or not), an update to 8445 is likely the right way to go. A heavy > >> lift, as you say=E2=80=A6 > > > > Why does it need to be that heavy? We=E2=80=99d be talking about no mor= e than a > couple of pages, not counting boiler-plate, right? > > Someone has to write an I-D. :-) But yeah, should be short and sweet. > > Peter > > > --000000000000b8f3530581d0de04 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree = the former could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

=
On Wed, Fe= b 13, 2019 at 2:31 PM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:
On 2/13/19 3:30 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 13, 2019, at 4:18 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote= :
>>
>> On 2/12/19 10:27 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:06 PM Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com
>>> <mailto:roman@telurix.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:01 PM Justin Uberti <= ;juberti@google.com=
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:juberti@google.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Do you think sip-sdp is the right h= ome for this, or would this
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 need to be addressed in a 8445 upda= te?
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The ice-sip-sdp is responsible for procedures for= forming the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 initial remote candidate list. It is responsible = for procedures for
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 FQDN resolution, parsing and discarding unsupport= ed candidate
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 addresses. Because of this, I thought it would no= t be out of place
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to specify in ice-sip-sdp what ICE agent should d= o when an empty
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list of candidates is generated as a result of in= itial remote
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 candidate gathering procedures.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Agree with the overall assessment a= nd solution, although I think
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there could be other similar scenar= ios, for example, a single
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 192.168.1.x candidate that is disca= rded by the recipient because
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there is no route to the destinatio= n.
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is actually an interesting new case. I do no= t think there is
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anything in ICE nomination that states that STUN = binding request
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should fail immediately when there is no path to = the destination
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address, but candidate pair does fail immediately= on a hard ICMP
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 error, which should cover this case. Dealing with= a situation when
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 all pairs failed immediately due to hard ICMP err= ors is something
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which has nothing to do with initial candidate ga= thering and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 probably belongs in RFC 8445 update.
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Based on this new case, I think we need RFC 8445 = update that states
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ICE nomination process should not fail for the du= ration of STUN
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 timeout even if the candidate pair list is empty = or if all the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 candidate pairs failed.
>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed. That seems like a heavy lift though, so perhaps a note= in
>>> sip-sdp would suffice until said update.
>>
>> As noted in your initial message, this can happen in the trickle c= ase of
>> sending zero candidates in the initial ICE description, too. But b= ecause
>> there are several situations where this might happen (trickle or n= ot,
>> SIP or not), an update to 8445 is likely the right way to go. A he= avy
>> lift, as you say=E2=80=A6
>
> Why does it need to be that heavy? We=E2=80=99d be talking about no mo= re than a couple of pages, not counting boiler-plate, right?

Someone has to write an I-D. :-) But yeah, should be short and sweet.

Peter


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Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:50:32 -0000 On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. Seems like an extension spec to me. Peter From nobody Wed Feb 13 17:56:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ice@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E08130E66 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFpV7GMBsMQv for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x134.google.com (mail-it1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DDEA130EAF for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x134.google.com with SMTP id i2so10664778ite.5 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ybn7V2xCPgfe9WR5ZhSqPHkF2DRp1HfguuoO68JlzkI=; b=Vx6wAP5VdPQR9J62gm9rvL0ovAkDR/hK4AWkUqjb9Uqpx2Bc3ZQWLW5P1ZFPpEX0Sq +X6fCXQY+7FlRKdVxeJ3X7FrFS1OHqEZga4amVqSWow1vpAVvlr0Nh0yElsAMeDwJ88j gtdAzW4BX1v5YokUiadAbdJzfAhD0JaozdDt234o3wdsSzbC0r4tAwGArgGBuQuVtfmk z2wVWmeJJQr/tH49YP9v/xR1NM62s+1olx8VmHoBVTJEIFRnyqq9UvRCJPGA6vqVp5FS I4S3t0H/xIQ3T3tBiMokSahI5yqdpK7y+iulcQwKJMuPP+P16lOmvJB+udkHaYqUoQoI RSoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ybn7V2xCPgfe9WR5ZhSqPHkF2DRp1HfguuoO68JlzkI=; b=nW6j3re5sQJJCGW0OrEyZfOuRaZz6GQFnINlL7um0bYtfyy7XS4CydbMObeAeD5xzW Me4cT3xnJCBFDWhEmVNoOJy5UmHpCHcFbT7zC+Xd571OWTZkuhpsTHxKV+jA5PbB/e5o NVbVyihQqminblAZoFK4pGuyHtoINWSeUTJ4SfPWUNRJ0uxv7y9sTRS61VU86WRVhpqb yeWb+UYvn85UsDu/YJ0dLuwQ7dX22LB9ay/KgEzwIDDkfoHlbROhjZ1aflwRlgZRt0FQ BcYQQIkJT8DdiuccS8FUrh4QgLcj05hIg+ctGHYMDYb7oPOqEvkX5of/d/AaypaWozUF J9Qw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaGfRML05qqOQZFB6A4c13y1SDlDMQ7EkVbnyaO9DslSq9YcDzP BbvJoGt4fq0aoi/+JMUwrtC1Dp5PkOUPWugHcHY+U3hEuhM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IY/BKQN62V/vL38LDjKm+Ri00aSQLj99MiKRkma2s9FJPW2oOgaMk/VkjucjgvrsqNgNQ4My2DfDIMSoI5fdu0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f01a:: with SMTP id w26mr713591ioc.101.1550109380869; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:56:09 -0800 Message-ID: To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , ice@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000313e60581d0f710" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 01:56:25 -0000 --0000000000000313e60581d0f710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. > > Seems like an extension spec to me. > > Peter > --0000000000000313e60581d0f710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something lik= e "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"?

On Wed, Feb 1= 3, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:
On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter
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Peter Saint-Andre CC: Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side Thread-Index: AQHUwzzFtJbX8dzl00CtVcBAg9t3CaXc9aKAgAAD9ACAADOfAIAABd2AgAEaaoCAAAONgIAAAEQAgAA3O4CAAABPgIAAAZeAgABrqoA= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:21:30 +0000 Message-ID: <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.15.0.190117 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [89.166.49.243] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ab482054-8596-44c2-fec3-08d6927f5519 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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SMTP id a10mr2663746jag.116.1550161767234; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:29:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:29:15 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Peter Saint-Andre , Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b73210581dd29bc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:29:31 -0000 --0000000000007b73210581dd29bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help write. On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > Unless someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together = an > initial draft. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of Justin Uberti 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57 > *To: *Peter Saint-Andre > *Cc: *Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , = " > ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing > Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. > > Seems like an extension spec to me. > > Peter > > --0000000000007b73210581dd29bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to h= elp write.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

Unless someone else wants to do= it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together an initial draft.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> o= n behalf of Justin Uberti <juberti=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by= one side

=C2=A0

OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Somethi= ng like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"?=

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre &l= t;stpeter@mozilla.= com> wrote:

On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter

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[209.85.215.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d88sm4813516pfe.19.2019.02.14.11.01.29 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:01:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id y1so3505456pgk.11 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a63:c40a:: with SMTP id h10mr1240351pgd.131.1550170889202; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:01:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Roman Shpount Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:01:19 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Christer Holmberg , Peter Saint-Andre , Ben Campbell , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000312f4e0581df4932" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:01:35 -0000 --000000000000312f4e0581df4932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Justin, I have not gone through the technical process of submitting the draft and I do not have enough time right now to figure it out, so I would prefer for someone else to take the lead on this. I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy to provide all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the technical details. Regards, _____________ Roman Shpount On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti wrote: > Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help write. > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Unless someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together= an >> initial draft. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From: *Ice on behalf of Justin Uberti > 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >> *Date: *Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57 >> *To: *Peter Saint-Andre >> *Cc: *Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , >> "ice@ietf.org" >> *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by >> one side >> >> >> >> OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing >> Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre >> wrote: >> >> On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: >> > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former >> > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. >> >> Seems like an extension spec to me. >> >> Peter >> >> --000000000000312f4e0581df4932 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Justin,

I have n= ot gone through the technical process of submitting the draft and I do not = have enough time right now to figure it out, so I would prefer for someone = else to take the lead on this.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy = to provide all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the techn= ical details.

Regards,
_____________=
Roman Shpount


On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Jus= tin Uberti <juberti@google.com= > wrote:
Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help = write.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@eric= sson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

Unless someone else wants to do= it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together an initial draft.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> o= n behalf of Justin Uberti <juberti=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by= one side

=C2=A0

OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Somethi= ng like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"?=

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre &l= t;stpeter@mozilla.= com> wrote:

On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter

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SMTP id a10mr3148698jag.116.1550171970322; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:19:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:19:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre , Ben Campbell , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a238850581df896e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 19:19:34 -0000 --000000000000a238850581df896e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good - thanks Christer. Please use markdown if possible :-) On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > I can put together a first version, put it on GitHub, and anyone can then > provide text etc. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Roman Shpount > *Date: *Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.01 > *To: *Justin Uberti > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg , Peter > Saint-Andre , Ben Campbell , " > ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > Justin, > > > > I have not gone through the technical process of submitting the draft and > I do not have enough time right now to figure it out, so I would prefer f= or > someone else to take the lead on this. > > > > I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy to provide all > the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the technical details. > > > > Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti wrote= : > > Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help write. > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Unless someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together = an > initial draft. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of Justin Uberti 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57 > *To: *Peter Saint-Andre > *Cc: *Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , = " > ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing > Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. > > Seems like an extension spec to me. > > Peter > > --000000000000a238850581df896e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sounds good - thanks Christer.=C2=A0

Pl= ease use markdown if possible :-)

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM Chr= ister Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can put together a first vers= ion, put it on GitHub, and anyone can then provide text etc.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.01
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Peter Sai= nt-Andre <stpet= er@mozilla.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by= one side

=C2=A0

Justin,

=C2=A0

I have not gone through the technical process of sub= mitting the draft and I do not have enough time right now to figure it out,= so I would prefer for someone else to take the lead on this.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

I think Christer already volunteered and I would be = happy to provide all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the= technical details.

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti <<= a href=3D"mailto:juberti@google.com" target=3D"_blank">juberti@google.com> wrote:

Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happ= y to help write.

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg &l= t;chris= ter.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

Unless someone else wants to do= it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together an initial draft.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> o= n behalf of Justin Uberti <juberti=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by= one side

=C2=A0

OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Somethi= ng like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"?=

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre &l= t;stpeter@mozilla.= com> wrote:

On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter

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autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4-8YLSMGjfi for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FC44128D52 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1EKBfgG053261 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:11:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550175105; bh=+Jw+ivlfX/X5jhPnotPx4x7v9PdS7mHrFBvmgPd8+oA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=kRV3L9ENn3BNRoIJOi5OmgwEzAfM8hjisGspa2YOctsvqjpkHRkxtQGDUnFzaImVF wj1mIg5DytrBGWEF0/LidJrL1kj7IhcACxGGECcdy7ekdNUHb1vbocUstJlkzMRedi cxOUx9wgesKWJbZtY6XVKhvDwkr8S6ATTkBi7NRI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_852443D4-4553-4257-8C92-25B415380A0B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:11:39 -0600 In-Reply-To: <9746328B-EB2A-40B0-B07F-D806D0CB56D0@ericsson.com> Cc: Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" To: Christer Holmberg , ice-chairs@ietf.org, mmusic-chairs@ietf.org References: <72814fc8-f6bc-b58a-01cd-433526e0f13a@mozilla.com> <9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> <9746328B-EB2A-40B0-B07F-D806D0CB56D0@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 20:11:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_852443D4-4553-4257-8C92-25B415380A0B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_279D62DE-AB18-479E-91F1-067170127F4C" --Apple-Mail=_279D62DE-AB18-479E-91F1-067170127F4C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Well, we haven=E2=80=99t closed ICE yet, nor have we added ICE = maintenance to the MMUSIC charter. (The IESG discussed this last week, = and there was not a lot of support for preemptively adding ICE = maintenance to the MMUSIC charter until there were actual milestones. I=E2=80=99d be inclined to just do this in ICE, or even make it AD = sponsored. (in order of preference.) Chairs, thoughts? Ben. > On Feb 14, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Just to verify, since MMUSIC will take over the maintenance of 8445, I = assume this will be a MMUSIC draft? >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 > From: Justin Uberti > Date: Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.19 > To: Christer Holmberg > Cc: Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre = , Ben Campbell , "ice@ietf.org" = > Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by = one side >=20 > Sounds good - thanks Christer. >=20 > Please use markdown if possible :-) >=20 > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM Christer Holmberg = > = wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> I can put together a first version, put it on GitHub, and anyone can = then provide text etc. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Christer >>=20 >> From: Roman Shpount > >> Date: Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.01 >> To: Justin Uberti > >> Cc: Christer Holmberg >, Peter Saint-Andre = >, Ben Campbell = >, "ice@ietf.org = " > >> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by = one side >>=20 >> Justin, >>=20 >> I have not gone through the technical process of submitting the draft = and I do not have enough time right now to figure it out, so I would = prefer for someone else to take the lead on this. >>=20 >> I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy to provide = all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the technical = details. >>=20 >> Regards, >> _____________ >> Roman Shpount >>=20 >>=20 >> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti > wrote: >>> Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help write. >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg = > = wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> Unless someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put = together an initial draft. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>>=20 >>>> Christer >>>>=20 >>>> From: Ice > on = behalf of Justin Uberti > >>>> Date: Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57 >>>> To: Peter Saint-Andre > >>>> Cc: Ben Campbell >, Roman = Shpount >, "ice@ietf.org = " > >>>> Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided = by one side >>>>=20 >>>> OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing = Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre = > wrote: >>>>> On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: >>>>> > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the = former >>>>> > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Seems like an extension spec to me. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Peter --Apple-Mail=_279D62DE-AB18-479E-91F1-067170127F4C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Well,= we haven=E2=80=99t closed ICE yet, nor have we added ICE maintenance to = the MMUSIC charter. (The IESG discussed this last week, and there was = not a lot of support for preemptively adding ICE maintenance to the = MMUSIC charter until there were actual milestones.

I=E2=80=99d be inclined to just do this = in ICE, or even make it AD sponsored. (in order of preference.)

Chairs, = thoughts?

Ben.



On Feb 14, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Just to verify, since MMUSIC will take over = the maintenance of 8445, I assume this will be a MMUSIC draft?
 
Regards,
 
Christer
 
From: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date: Thursday, 14 February = 2019 at 14.19
To: Christer Holmberg = <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Cc: Roman= Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior = when zero candidates are provided by one side
 
Sounds good - thanks = Christer.  
 
Please use markdown if possible :-)
 
On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at = 11:13 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,
 
I can = put together a first version, put it on GitHub, and anyone can then = provide text etc.
 
Regards,
 
Christer
 
From: Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>
Date: Thursday, 14 February = 2019 at 14.01
To: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Cc: Christer Holmberg = <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Peter Saint-Andre = <stpeter@mozilla.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, = "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior = when zero candidates are provided by one side
 
Justin,
 
I have not gone through the technical = process of submitting the draft and I do not have enough time right now = to figure it out, so I would prefer for someone else to take the lead on = this. 
 
I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy to = provide all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the = technical details.
 
Regards,
_____________
Roman = Shpount
 
 
On Thu, = Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>= wrote:
Roman, did you want to take a crack at = it? I am happy to help write.
 
On Thu, = Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi,
 
Unless = someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together an = initial draft.
 
Regards,
 
Christer
 
From: Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Justin Uberti = <juberti=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, 13 February = 2019 at 20.57
To: Peter Saint-Andre = <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc: Ben = Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>,= "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior = when zero candidates are provided by one side
 
OK, agree that's better than an = erratum. Something like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE = Negotiation"?
 
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at = 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:
On = 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be = an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former
> = could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter
<= /div>
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<9506122d-91c2-fe10-70f7-d261dd5ef251@mozilla.com> <9bca31b9-c62f-3c46-f2c6-6c627f89ad17@mozilla.com> <784F7EC5-E9DE-4525-9FAC-7A137FF1DCC1@ericsson.com> <9746328B-EB2A-40B0-B07F-D806D0CB56D0@ericsson.com> <1354E289-5E86-42E1-8C3D-E7562BCC7055@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <1354E289-5E86-42E1-8C3D-E7562BCC7055@ericsson.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 13:20:53 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Cc: Ben Campbell , "ice-chairs@ietf.org" , "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" , Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000064a1e80581e13c37" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by one side X-BeenThere: ice@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment \(ICE\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 21:21:08 -0000 --00000000000064a1e80581e13c37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable let's do -ice and we can deal with any needed changes later, should they be required. On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:21 PM Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > I just want to know whether I shall name the document > draft-holmberg-mmusic or draft-holmberg-ice =F0=9F=98=8A > > > > *From: *Ben Campbell > *Date: *Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 15.12 > *To: *Christer Holmberg , < > ice-chairs@ietf.org>, "mmusic-chairs@ietf.org" > *Cc: *Justin Uberti , Roman Shpount , > Peter Saint-Andre , "ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > Well, we haven=E2=80=99t closed ICE yet, nor have we added ICE maintenanc= e to the > MMUSIC charter. (The IESG discussed this last week, and there was not a l= ot > of support for preemptively adding ICE maintenance to the MMUSIC charter > until there were actual milestones. > > > > I=E2=80=99d be inclined to just do this in ICE, or even make it AD sponso= red. (in > order of preference.) > > > > Chairs, thoughts? > > > > Ben. > > > > > > > > On Feb 14, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > > > Just to verify, since MMUSIC will take over the maintenance of 8445, I > assume this will be a MMUSIC draft? > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Justin Uberti > *Date: *Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.19 > *To: *Christer Holmberg > *Cc: *Roman Shpount , Peter Saint-Andre < > stpeter@mozilla.com>, Ben Campbell , "ice@ietf.org" < > ice@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > Sounds good - thanks Christer. > > > > Please use markdown if possible :-) > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I can put together a first version, put it on GitHub, and anyone can then > provide text etc. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Roman Shpount > *Date: *Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.01 > *To: *Justin Uberti > *Cc: *Christer Holmberg , Peter > Saint-Andre , Ben Campbell , " > ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > Justin, > > > > I have not gone through the technical process of submitting the draft and > I do not have enough time right now to figure it out, so I would prefer f= or > someone else to take the lead on this. > > > > I think Christer already volunteered and I would be happy to provide all > the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the technical details. > > > > Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti wrote= : > > Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happy to help write. > > > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Unless someone else wants to do it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together = an > initial draft. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From: *Ice on behalf of Justin Uberti 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57 > *To: *Peter Saint-Andre > *Cc: *Ben Campbell , Roman Shpount , = " > ice@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by > one side > > > > OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Something like "Preventing > Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"? > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre > wrote: > > On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors. > > Seems like an extension spec to me. > > Peter > > > --00000000000064a1e80581e13c37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
let's do -ice and we can deal with any needed changes = later, should they be required.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:21 PM Christer Ho= lmberg <christer.holmb= erg@ericsson.com> wrote:

I just want to know whether I s= hall name the document draft-holmberg-mmusic or draft-holmberg-ice =F0=9F=98=8A

=C2=A0

From: = Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> Date: Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 15.12
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, <ice-chairs@ietf.org= >, "mmu= sic-chairs@ietf.org" <mmusic-chairs@ietf.org>
Cc: Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, Peter Sain= t-Andre <stpete= r@mozilla.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided by= one side

=C2=A0

Well, we haven=E2=80=99t closed ICE yet, nor have we= added ICE maintenance to the MMUSIC charter. (The IESG discussed this last= week, and there was not a lot of support for preemptively adding ICE maint= enance to the MMUSIC charter until there were actual milestones.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be inclined to just do this in ICE, or e= ven make it AD sponsored. (in order of preference.)

=C2=A0

Chairs, thoughts?

=C2=A0

Ben.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Feb 14, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Christer Holmberg <<= a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">christer= .holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Just to verify, since MMUSIC wi= ll take over the maintenance of 8445, I assume this will be a MMUSIC draft?=

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0<= /b>Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>
Date:= =C2=A0Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.19
To:=C2= =A0Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Cc:=C2= =A0Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>, Ben= Campbell <ben@nost= rum.com>, "ice@ietf.org&q= uot; <ice@ietf.org= >
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided = by one side

=C2=A0

Sounds good - thanks Christer.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Please use markdown if possible :-)

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:13 AM Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrot= e:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I can put together a first vers= ion, put it on GitHub, and anyone can then provide text etc.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0<= /b>Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.= com>
Date:= =C2=A0Thursday, 14 February 2019 at 14.01
To:=C2= =A0Justin Uberti <juberti@google.com>=
Cc:=C2= =A0Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg= @ericsson.com>, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozi= lla.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, "ice@ietf= .org" <ice@ietf.org>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided = by one side

=C2=A0

Justin,

=C2=A0

I have not gone through the technical process of sub= mitting the draft and I do not have enough time right now to figure it out,= so I would prefer for someone else to take the lead on this.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

I think Christer already volunteered and I would be = happy to provide all the necessary text as long as he takes care of all the= technical details.

=C2=A0

Regards,

_____________
Roman Shpount

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 11:29 AM Justin Uberti <<= a href=3D"mailto:juberti@google.com" target=3D"_blank">juberti@google.com> wrote:

Roman, did you want to take a crack at it? I am happ= y to help write.

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 5:21 AM Christer Holmberg &l= t;christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote= :

Hi,

=C2=A0

Unless someone else wants to do= it, I=E2=80=99d be happy to put together an initial draft.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0<= /b>Ice <ice-bounces@ietf.org<= /span>> on behalf of Justin Uberti <juberti=3D40google.com@d= marc.ietf.org>
Date:= =C2=A0Wednesday, 13 February 2019 at 20.57
To:=C2= =A0Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@mozilla.com>
Cc:=C2= =A0Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, Roman= Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "ice@ietf.org" <ice@ietf.org>= ;
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Ice] ICE behavior when zero candidates are provided = by one side

=C2=A0

OK, agree that's better than an erratum. Somethi= ng like "Preventing Premature Failure of ICE Negotiation"?=

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 5:50 PM Peter Saint-Andre &l= t;stpeter@mozilla.com> wrote:

On 2/13/19 6:49 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> Would this be an extension spec, or a -bis of 8445? Agree the former > could be easy, but may be missed by many implementors.

Seems like an extension spec to me.

Peter

=C2=A0

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