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Thread-Index: AQHSBGF5tTZVLfISYU+G2h7/Yt6+qw== Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 14:59:45 +0000 Message-ID: <97435170-2C7D-44B1-AFC1-A92E9DE26339@parc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.18.0.160709 x-originating-ip: [50.0.67.90] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_974351702C7D44B1AFC1A92E9DE26339parccom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] Update to differences slide. 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X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:50:25 -0000 --_000_D96E28F4A22C864DBC6C871B5B1C4CC320CC6008SJCEML701CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFyYywNCg0KRmV3IGNvbW1lbnRzIGlubGluZS4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNClJhdmkNCg0KRnJv bTogSWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbiBbbWFpbHRvOmljbnJnLWhhcm1vbml6YXRpb24tYm91bmNl c0BpcnRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1hcmMuTW9za29AcGFyYy5jb208bWFpbHRvOk1hcmMu TW9za29AcGFyYy5jb20+DQpTZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDAxLCAyMDE2IDU6MDIg UE0NClRvOiBSYXZpIFJhdmluZHJhbjsgaWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZzxtYWls dG86aWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZz4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWNucmctaGFy 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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvqWMWLRJWQc for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4595112B097 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14B4160D74; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id FP0FEMYnh0A1; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE65160DFF; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id cEPTHI0vSQyo; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (cpe-76-91-246-89.socal.res.rr.com [76.91.246.89]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34DCE160D74; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1A71896A-2943-444C-BE3E-4B2222396BFA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Lixia Zhang In-Reply-To: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:12:01 -0700 Message-Id: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> To: Marc.Mosko@parc.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 00:12:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1A71896A-2943-444C-BE3E-4B2222396BFA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Marc.Mosko@parc.com wrote: >=20 > There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >=20 > This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. Personal opinion: I am afraid that the above reflects a misunderstanding = of NDN names and the role of LINK object. =20 > The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent.=20 I do not agree with the "nameless object" concept (in fact CCNx 1.x's = nameless object indeed has a name, the content hash), and I do not = believe NDN names allow zero component.=20 =20 I just looked at the spec and did not see such statement; I searched the = page, the only appearance of the word "zero" is in describing how to = "unambiguously represent name components that would collide with the use = of . and .. for relative URIs" If I missed anything, please point out to me and we'll fix it. Lixia PS: there seems a huge conceptual confusion about names and locators, = that we really to clean up someday soon. > Therefore, I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an = Interest, I can put one NameComponent of type = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and = then include one or more Link objects in the Interest for routing. > =20 > My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. > =20 > I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). > =20 > Marc > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization = --Apple-Mail=_1A71896A-2943-444C-BE3E-4B2222396BFA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Marc.Mosko@parc.com = wrote:

There has been a bit of talk about = CCNx making explicit the use of nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like = to point out that one can do essentially the same thing in NDN using the = Interest Link.  If CCNx were to adopt the Link approach to routing = indirection, it could be done this way too (though using the = ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the implicit = digest).

This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format = specification and the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper.  If I have = misread something, please let me = know.

Personal opinion: I am afraid that the above reflects a = misunderstanding of NDN names and the role of LINK object.
 
The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more = NameComponent. 

I do not agree with the "nameless object" concept = (in fact CCNx 1.x's nameless object indeed has a name, the content = hash), and I do not believe NDN names allow zero = component. 
 
I just looked at the spec = and did not see such statement; I searched the page, the only appearance = of the word "zero" is in describing how to "unambiguously represent name = components that would collide with the use of . and .. for relative = URIs"

If I missed anything, please = point out to me and we'll fix it.

Lixia

PS: = there seems a huge conceptual confusion about names and locators, that = we really to clean up someday soon.

Therefore, I can create a Data = object with an empty name.  In an Interest, I can put one = NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing.
 
My understanding of NDN is that = because the ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder = will forward via the Link.  The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 = having 0 name components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest.
 
I believe this use of NDN also = maintains the property we were going after in CCNx nameless objects in = that one cannot poison the cache by feting a Data object by hash that = could then later be confused with a Data object being fetched by prefix = or name (unless one put a 0 component name in the Interest with = MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 and used Link routing).
 
Marc
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= --Apple-Mail=_1A71896A-2943-444C-BE3E-4B2222396BFA-- From nobody Mon Sep 5 17:13:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C796812B472 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.408 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxQfxoxpdyfy for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [131.179.128.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08CA412B0EF for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52FB160D74; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id U6nfMWaoVZZU; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E0F160DFF; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id NExCOftybK7o; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (cpe-76-91-246-89.socal.res.rr.com [76.91.246.89]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 679A2160D74; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_392432A7-6E63-4399-BA2D-E32A01FF8A65" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Lixia Zhang In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 17:13:52 -0700 Message-Id: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 00:13:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_392432A7-6E63-4399-BA2D-E32A01FF8A65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) > I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, = and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. > =20 > Regards, > Ravi To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. Lixia > =20 > From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM > To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data > =20 > There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). > =20 > This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. > =20 > The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I = can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put = one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing. > =20 > My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. > =20 > I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). > =20 > Marc > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization --Apple-Mail=_392432A7-6E63-4399-BA2D-E32A01FF8A65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran <ravi.ravindran@huawei.com> wrote:

But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that = all objects are named.

Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data = networking :-)

I think we should reconsider = this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, and define a way to carry = locator names in the Interest messages.
 
Regards,
Ravi

To me the so called "locator" is another = misconception.

Lixia

 
From: Icnrg-harmonization [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf = Of Marc.Mosko@parc.com
Sent: Thursday, September 01, = 2016 8:24 AM
To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org<= br class=3D"">Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN = use of nameless Data
 
There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the = use of nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can = do essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link.  If = CCNx were to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be = done this way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, = not the implicit digest).
 
This is based on = the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and the = SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper.  If I have misread something, = please let me know.
 
The NDN spec says = a Name is zero or more NameComponent.  Therefore, I can create a = Data object with an empty name.  In an Interest, I can put one = NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing.
 
My understanding = of NDN is that because the ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the = FIB, a forwarder will forward via the Link.  The nameless Data = Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName = of only its ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name = in the Interest.
 
I believe this = use of NDN also maintains the property we were going after in CCNx = nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by feting a Data = object by hash that could then later be confused with a Data object = being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 component name in = the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 and used Link = routing).
 
Marc
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AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBsEyOAgAAK7IA= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 00:51:27 +0000 Message-ID: <5AB13B86-DF40-430A-B666-1B0788D60267@parc.com> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.0.67.90] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5AB13B86DF40430AB6661B0788D60267parccom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 00:51:19 -0000 --_000_5AB13B86DF40430AB6661B0788D60267parccom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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To: Lixia Zhang , Ravi Ravindran Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//5S2wA== Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 01:05:41 +0000 Message-ID: <6759D6D370C7024D9BB22CD5F92D2D3320FD3AD4@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.42] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6759D6D370C7024D9BB22CD5F92D2D3320FD3AD4SJCEML701CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 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RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIzcSY62-QSk for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-f173.google.com (mail-pf0-f173.google.com [209.85.192.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0DFE12B04C for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-f173.google.com with SMTP id w87so11996014pfk.2 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2016 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=Qhxzh0aZb6E8ZcHEajln50MNo6thx9j6zE0OfDhpUn4=; b=eo8GKlEC+K5jQ1IM2fAhywPjbkTbTAg0vgMbxHbRYrZ20YYk5kBbSvu3IH8u1kZ76t 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([2605:e000:1521:18b:197f:ce20:955:9b74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g90sm19295618pfe.96.2016.09.05.21.21.39 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Sep 2016 21:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E1007503-2183-4586-9F4C-0533843D33A1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: Alex Afanasyev In-Reply-To: <87A7A215-9145-4B1B-B240-213F0B1916B7@parc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:21:38 -0700 Message-Id: <731A5A92-439C-40A3-A0A4-B0E1856BFCC5@cs.ucla.edu> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <87A7A215-9145-4B1B-B240-213F0B1916B7@parc.com> To: Marc.Mosko@parc.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: ravi.ravindran@huawei.com, icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 04:21:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E1007503-2183-4586-9F4C-0533843D33A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >=20 > This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >=20 > The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I = can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put = one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing. The fact that generic definition of the name allows zero component is = not related to the fact that ALL data packets have name. Name is the = identifier of the data. (What Lixia is arguing is that Interest packet = must not have an empty name, as Interest should ask for something. This = part is an oversight in the current spec.) In my opinion, there is no "nameless" Data in NDN. I would like to say = it even more generally, that in ICN there could not be "nameless" data, = as name is data's identifier. I understand that in CCNx 1.x spec you = redefined the concept of the name, which creates a lot of confusion. I would like also to reiterate my opinion that not properly naming each = individual data packet is a serious limitation. Yes, manifest and etc. = can provide contexts to verify data, but it is really limitings. Data = packet by itself is worthless, as there is neither application context = to which this packet belong nor security context to verify it. And additional point. I would like to bring back the conversation we = had last week, where we pointed out that there are many cases where = consumer inherently cannot know neither the full nor exact name. = Therefore, I'm not quite sure where are we going with this conversation. = In general, each Data packet should have a unique name. And in many = cases, such as real-time data retrieval, the name should use predictable = naming conventions, at the very least to allow pipelining of interests. --- Alex > My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >=20 > I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >=20 > Marc --Apple-Mail=_E1007503-2183-4586-9F4C-0533843D33A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXzkRSAAoJEJFqoM1ehXDJLRQP/0RPAKttv/kUhXVyd/RmWXV0 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([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.parc.xerox.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-_O2fSCeJM3; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchangehub.parc.xerox.com (e2010hub1.parc.xerox.com [13.2.12.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.parc.xerox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E22D16C00C1; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E2010DAG5.corp.ad.parc.com ([fe80::3d0b:7158:aec4:e05e]) by e2010hub1.corp.ad.parc.com ([fe80::8945:a39d:8c92:373f%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 21:59:13 -0700 From: To: Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggABf/ICABwcXAIAACm4A Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 04:59:13 +0000 Message-ID: <345365B3-5AF5-4652-B06C-3EA4A20846A9@parc.com> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <87A7A215-9145-4B1B-B240-213F0B1916B7@parc.com> 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RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkCQDLKSD5Q3 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-f46.google.com (mail-pa0-f46.google.com [209.85.220.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4555B12B138 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2016 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id to9so28806381pac.1 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2016 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=BBWrhnGSeQNmMDNM2TcszhF6YWhxHfreYhbA6bSlv0U=; b=lowIV7jRWrSm9GWwwMP3c0Hab5W1byRBFrxEqlDIRrTZsNP3HLQcfMHP0ACdAfpd4z 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([2605:e000:1521:18b:197f:ce20:955:9b74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bl6sm27431334pad.6.2016.09.05.22.11.38 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Sep 2016 22:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2FBF850F-F11B-4FCA-A928-FC9B44A31988"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: Alex Afanasyev In-Reply-To: <345365B3-5AF5-4652-B06C-3EA4A20846A9@parc.com> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 22:11:37 -0700 Message-Id: <569A6A7C-46C4-48AF-98B5-7DE7C2560A78@cs.ucla.edu> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <87A7A215-9145-4B1B-B240-213F0B1916B7@parc.com> <731A5A92-439C-40A3-A0A4-B0E1856BFCC5@cs.ucla.edu> <345365B3-5AF5-4652-B06C-3EA4A20846A9@parc.com> To: Marc.Mosko@parc.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: ravi.ravindran@huawei.com, icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 05:11:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2FBF850F-F11B-4FCA-A928-FC9B44A31988 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CDCA5C2F-C44B-4319-9817-FBCFC0E78E3E" --Apple-Mail=_CDCA5C2F-C44B-4319-9817-FBCFC0E78E3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Marc.Mosko@parc.com wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Alex Afanasyev > wrote: >>=20 >>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>=20 >>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>=20 >>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, = I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can = put one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set = Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects = in the Interest for routing. >>=20 >> The fact that generic definition of the name allows zero component is = not related to the fact that ALL data packets have name. Name is the = identifier of the data. (What Lixia is arguing is that Interest packet = must not have an empty name, as Interest should ask for something. This = part is an oversight in the current spec.) >=20 > I would say the full name (including the implicit hash) is the unique = identifier of the data. The prefix is for routing and the application = data (version, segment, etc.) is for application conventions and in some = cases discovery. If I=E2=80=99m willing to route on hashes and have = some other means of discovery, I don=E2=80=99t think it should be = illegal to do that. >=20 > An Interest packet would have the implicit hash, so it would have a = non-empty name field. The point I was making is that there are no "nameless" data. Each data = packet has a name (full name), which identifies this specific data = packet at the networking level. >> In my opinion, there is no "nameless" Data in NDN. I would like to = say it even more generally, that in ICN there could not be "nameless" = data, as name is data's identifier. I understand that in CCNx 1.x spec = you redefined the concept of the name, which creates a lot of confusion. >>=20 >=20 > Really, we went back to the ability of CCNx 0.7 (and earlier) to use = only hash-based naming, which was an ability that CCNx 1.0 lost when we = split the hash restriction out of a name component and put it in a = distinguished field. If you go back and look at the old CCNx specs, = you=E2=80=99ll see they permitted empty names too = (https://github.com/ProjectCCNx/ccnx/blob/master/doc/technical/Name.txt = ).= You could also look at the old ccnx.dtd and ccnx.xsd, they = specifically allow zero component names. >=20 > What we added was a rule about not matching the Interest name if the = ContentObject had no name field, which is different from the CCNx 0.x = days and introduced a locator. >=20 >> I would like also to reiterate my opinion that not properly naming = each individual data packet is a serious limitation. Yes, manifest and = etc. can provide contexts to verify data, but it is really limitings. = Data packet by itself is worthless, as there is neither application = context to which this packet belong nor security context to verify it. >=20 > Most data packets, by them self, are worthless; a single data packet = is usually only a small fraction of some larger whole. There are a = small number of data packets that must be discoverable because those = will lead one to knowing how to retrieve the remainder of the data. Discoverable is for cases when exact name is not known. I would agree = that there is a small number of those. There is a way greater amount of = packets which are not yet generated, but the consumer would want to send = interest to retrieve them (real time pipeline as an example here, but = there are other cases such as IoT/DTN). >>=20 >> And additional point. I would like to bring back the conversation we = had last week, where we pointed out that there are many cases where = consumer inherently cannot know neither the full nor exact name. = Therefore, I'm not quite sure where are we going with this conversation. = In general, each Data packet should have a unique name. And in many = cases, such as real-time data retrieval, the name should use predictable = naming conventions, at the very least to allow pipelining of interests. >=20 > I am not making the point that all data or apps must do it this way. = I understand there are cases when one wants predictable names and = discoverable names. >=20 > Not in general, but in specific, all data packets do have unique names = via the implicit hash. I think what you want to mandate is that all = data packets have unique exact names (up to but not including the = implicit hash). You can have a recommendation that a producer not = generate duplicate names, but there=E2=80=99s no way to enforce that in = the system. >=20 > Would you completely rule out a NDN-based system that uses implicit = hash names without some other prefix, even if those implicit hash names = were in the FIB? What I said does not rule this out. In my opinion, this type of usage = is possible, while applicable only to certain cases. -- Alex >>=20 >>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>=20 >>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>=20 >>> Marc >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 --Apple-Mail=_CDCA5C2F-C44B-4319-9817-FBCFC0E78E3E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Marc.Mosko@parc.com = wrote:


On Sep 5, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Alex Afanasyev <aa@cs.ucla.edu> = wrote:

There has been a bit of talk about = CCNx making explicit the use of nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like = to point out that one can do essentially the same thing in NDN using the = Interest Link.  If CCNx were to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this way too (though using the = ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the implicit digest).

This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and the = SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper.  If I have misread something, = please let me know.

The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent.  Therefore, = I can create a Data object with an empty name.  In an Interest, I = can put one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set = Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the Interest for routing.

The fact that generic definition of the name allows zero component is = not related to the fact that ALL data packets have name.  Name is = the identifier of the data.  (What Lixia is arguing is that = Interest packet must not have an empty name, as Interest should ask for something.  This part is an oversight in the current = spec.)

I would say the full name (including the implicit hash) = is the unique identifier of the data.  The prefix is for routing = and the application data (version, segment, etc.) is for application = conventions and in some cases discovery.  If I=E2=80=99m willing to = route on hashes and have some other means of discovery, I don=E2=80=99t think = it should be illegal to do that.

An Interest packet would have the implicit hash, so it would have a = non-empty name field.  

The point I was making is that there are no = "nameless" data.  Each data packet has a name (full name), which = identifies this specific data packet at the networking = level.

In my opinion, there is no "nameless" Data in NDN.  I would like to = say it even more generally, that in ICN there could not be "nameless" = data, as name is data's identifier.  I understand that in CCNx 1.x = spec you redefined the concept of the name, which creates a lot of confusion.


Really, we went back to the ability of CCNx 0.7 (and = earlier) to use only hash-based naming, which was an ability that CCNx = 1.0 lost when we split the hash restriction out of a name component and = put it in a distinguished field.  If you go back and look at the old CCNx specs, you=E2=80=99ll see they permitted empty names = too (https://github.com/ProjectCCNx/ccnx/blob/master/doc/technical/N= ame.txt).  You could also look at the old ccnx.dtd and ccnx.xsd, they specifically allow zero component = names.

What we added was a rule about not matching the Interest = name if the ContentObject had no name field, which is different from the = CCNx 0.x days and introduced a locator.

I would like also to reiterate my opinion that not = properly naming each individual data packet is a serious limitation. =  Yes, manifest and etc. can provide contexts to verify data, but it = is really limitings.  Data packet by itself is worthless, as there is neither application context to which this packet belong nor = security context to verify it.

Most data packets, by them self, are worthless; a single = data packet is usually only a small fraction of some larger whole. =  There are a small number of data packets that must be discoverable = because those will lead one to knowing how to retrieve the remainder of the data. 

Discoverable is for cases when exact name is not = known.  I would agree that there is a small number of those. =  There is a way greater amount of packets which are not yet = generated, but the consumer would want to send interest to retrieve them = (real time pipeline as an example here, but there are other cases such = as IoT/DTN).


And additional point.  I would like to bring back the conversation = we had last week, where we pointed out that there are many cases where = consumer inherently cannot know neither the full nor exact name. =  Therefore, I'm not quite sure where are we going with this conversation.  In general, each Data packet should have a = unique name.  And in many cases, such as real-time data retrieval, = the name should use predictable naming conventions, at the very least to = allow pipelining of interests.

I am not making the point that all data or apps must do = it this way.  I understand there are cases when one wants = predictable names and discoverable names.

Not in general, but in specific, all data packets do = have unique names via the implicit hash.  I think what you want to = mandate is that all data packets have unique exact names (up to but not = including the implicit hash).  You can have a recommendation that a producer not generate duplicate names, but there=E2=80=99s no = way to enforce that in the system.

Would you completely rule out a NDN-based system that = uses implicit hash names without some other prefix, even if those = implicit hash names were in the = FIB? 

What I said does not rule this out.  In my = opinion, this type of usage is possible, while applicable only to = certain cases.

--
Alex 


My understanding of NDN is that = because the ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder = will forward via the Link.  The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 = having 0 name components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the Interest.

I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of = at least 1 and used Link routing).

Marc
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AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkA== Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 05:23:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D96E28F4A22C864DBC6C871B5B1C4CC320CC7853SJCEML701CHMchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 05:23:42 -0000 --_000_D96E28F4A22C864DBC6C871B5B1C4CC320CC7853SJCEML701CHMchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([2605:e000:1521:18b:197f:ce20:955:9b74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y2sm37632988pan.31.2016.09.05.23.11.34 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Sep 2016 23:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3DFA49D3-77A1-4B2C-BCEE-4A89B3A9F449"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: Alex Afanasyev In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 23:11:33 -0700 Message-Id: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 06:11:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3DFA49D3-77A1-4B2C-BCEE-4A89B3A9F449 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, = there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and = managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names = that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, = border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence = topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we call = locators. I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be managed by = the operators. However, it does not mean that only those names can be = used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future for real, I = can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from google, amazon, = netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. > Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few meetings = back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical differences = from what word "locator" implies: - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where the = data may be available. - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a = specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. -- Alex >=20 > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 > On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >=20 > Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >=20 >=20 > I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, = and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >=20 > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >=20 > Lixia >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM > To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 > There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >=20 > This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >=20 > The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I = can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put = one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing. >=20 > My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >=20 > I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >=20 > Marc > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization --Apple-Mail=_3DFA49D3-77A1-4B2C-BCEE-4A89B3A9F449 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cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA1AE12B495 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DDI73634; Tue, 06 Sep 2016 09:32:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.218.25.35) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:32:57 -0700 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.36]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.218.25.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:32:51 -0700 From: Ravi Ravindran To: Alex Afanasyev Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzA= Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:32:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.94] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 14:36:42 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBkaXN0aW5jdGlvbiBiZXR3ZWVuIGxpbmsgYW5kIGxvY2F0b3IsIGJ1 dCBpbiBhZG1pbmlzdGVyZWQgZG9tYWlucyAnbGlua3MnIHdpbGwgbW9zdCBsaWtlbHkgd2lsbCAg YmUgdXNlZCBhcyBsb2NhdG9ycywgYXMgeW91IGhhdmUgYWJzb2x1dGUga25vd2xlZGdlIG9mIHRo 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gSWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSWNu cmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pcnRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2ljbnJnLWhhcm1vbml6YXRpb24NCg0K From nobody Tue Sep 6 07:53:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9383412B20A for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rkl9H_TorFWl for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50E7612B1E9 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.131.118.58] ([173.38.117.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id u86ErWLj028863 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Sep 2016 07:53:35 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.0 \(3225\)) From: David Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 10:53:27 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3225) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 14:53:53 -0000 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >=20 This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80=9D = is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid of = it. There are two related but separate functions: a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local application = or a cached copy of the data object. b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) = above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. Neither of these requires anything like a locator. A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure (b) = out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix of = the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send the = Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the = interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint = in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu]=20 > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, = there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and = managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names = that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, = border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence = topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we call = locators. >=20 > I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be managed = by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those names can = be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future for real, I = can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from google, amazon, = netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >=20 > If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >=20 >> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >=20 > I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few meetings = back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical differences = from what word "locator" implies: >=20 > - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where the = data may be available. > - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a = specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. > - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >=20 > -- > Alex >=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >>=20 >> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>=20 >>=20 >> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, = and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>=20 >> Lixia >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>=20 >> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>=20 >> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I = can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put = one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max = SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the = Interest for routing. >>=20 >> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>=20 >> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>=20 >> Marc >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization From nobody Tue Sep 6 08:55:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D4912B3F3 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:55:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.028 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.028 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSn7JanFCkV1 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E17212B5F0 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:38:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1601; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1473176310; x=1474385910; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=FUwB6O99cZAbnAv+rTQzjIYKWiZKYH1H6kMHDV3prQs=; b=SfAvw+SB+FYH+VrCZU52D3Yyu1BF1Mk7Tr4Eg7G7x4QNCdQm2Vd95/Bu /ipK3T0eiXulJDsCkGIC38LRowKMfMZfn0aMY7SAeNzyiN9Mm3j7abhbv SW9hutpSCzjpfHcDi6J9TfGBeHF76ykwoxKzFL5lyKRY68GVcbjLSbVv8 Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CEAgA14s5X/5hdJa1dGwEBAQMBAQGCe?= =?us-ascii?q?jMBAQEBAR6BWo0npXuFDYICh3k4FAECAQEBAQEBAV4cC4RYEC1eAQsBdCYBBBu?= =?us-ascii?q?IQqAhnAIBAQEBBgEBAQEBASGGL45qBZlTAY8uj2CQRQEeNoRHhlp/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.30,292,1470700800"; d="scan'208,217";a="148777335" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Sep 2016 15:38:28 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u86FcSFx002723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:38:28 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:38:27 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:38:27 -0400 From: "Paul Polakos (ppolakos)" To: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: Hamonization Call today Thread-Index: AdIIUGZZP6/qQd3jQBezxVMbzRb+0w== Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:38:27 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.12.110] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_e6359db780c94b26b8c7a03f0e7469d1XCHRTP015ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] Hamonization Call today X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 15:55:38 -0000 --_000_e6359db780c94b26b8c7a03f0e7469d1XCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, We will have a shorter-than-usual ICN Harmonization call today due overlap = with the ITU-T Focus group f2f. The call will be for 1 hr from 10-11 PDT / 13-14 EDT / 19-20 CET. We will continue the discussion of Discovery....Marc Mosko will lead with t= he PARC approach. paul --_000_e6359db780c94b26b8c7a03f0e7469d1XCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
 
We will have a shorter-than-usual ICN Harmonization call today due ove= rlap with the ITU-T Focus group f2f.
 
The call will be for 1 hr from 10-11 PDT / 13-14 EDT / 19-20 CET.
 
We will continue the discussion of Discovery….Marc Mosko will le= ad with the PARC approach.
 
paul
 
 
 
 
 --_000_e6359db780c94b26b8c7a03f0e7469d1XCHRTP015ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 6 09:01:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC49A12B4F8 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.708 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.708 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rg_U2bBtfmGi for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 09:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EMHUB4.ad.ucla.edu (emhub4.ad.ucla.edu [169.232.42.122]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54B7712B6C2 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EM1A.ad.ucla.edu ([192.168.4.111]) by EMHUB4.ad.ucla.edu ([169.232.42.122]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 08:48:59 -0700 From: "Thompson, Jeff" To: David Oran Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//migA Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:48:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.7.160722 x-originating-ip: [80.35.251.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 16:01:32 -0000 > b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) >above returns =B3not found=B2. The forwarder has to decide where to forward the interest to get a data packet which not only has a matching name, but has a signature that the consumer will trust (since it is the consumer who verifies the packet). In a future Internet with a billion producers, most of them mobile, there could be many packets floating around with a matching name, but only one with a signature that the consumer will trust. I had always assumed that this is why the consumer has to put something in the interest - not to tell the network where to find a data packet with a matching name (too easy), but where to find a producer who will cough up a data packet with a signature that the consumer will trust. - Jeff T On 2016/9/6, 7:53:27, "Icnrg-harmonization on behalf of David Oran" wrote: > >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran >>wrote: >>=20 >> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in >>administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, >>as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment >>point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over >>the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both >>these names simultaneously. >>=20 >This to me illustrates very well why the term =B3locator=B2 is really >problematic in the context of ICN. Let=B9s get rid of it. >There are two related but separate functions: > >a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local application >or a cached copy of the data object. >b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) above >returns =B3not found=B2. >Neither of these requires anything like a locator. > >A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure (b) >out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix of the >name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send the >Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the >interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint >in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a =B3locators=B2. = Or >perhaps they all are, in which case the term is equally usless. > > > >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu] >> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> I=B9m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, there are >>>two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and managed >>>by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names that >>>are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, border >>>nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence >>>topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we >>>call locators. >>=20 >> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be managed >>by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those names can >>be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future for real, I >>can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from google, amazon, >>netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>=20 >> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm >>leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would >>need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>=20 >>> Isn=B9t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>=20 >> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few meetings >>back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical differences >>from what word "locator" implies: >>=20 >> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where the >>data may be available. >> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a >>specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from >>without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a >>direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. >>Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be >>announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is >>not pre-determined. >>=20 >> -- >> Alex >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all >>>objects are named. >>>=20 >>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in CCNx, >>>and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>=20 >>> Lixia >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Icnrg-harmonization >>>[mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of >>>Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of >>>nameless objects, but I=B9d like to point out that one can do essentiall= y >>>the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were to adopt >>>the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this way too >>>(though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the implicit >>>digest). >>>=20 >>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and >>>the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, >>>please let me know. >>>=20 >>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, I >>>can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can put >>>one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max >>>SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects in the >>>Interest for routing. >>>=20 >>> My understanding of NDN is that because the >>>ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will >>>forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =AD having 0 name >>>components =AD will have a FullName of only its >>>ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the >>>Interest. >>>=20 >>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going >>>after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by >>>feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a >>>Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 >>>component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 >>>and used Link routing). >>>=20 >>> Marc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization > >_______________________________________________ >Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization From nobody Tue Sep 6 11:17:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA8512B2D7 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:17:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36Cq0FJlGjAK for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B448612B2CF for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO dfweml701-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BTW22547; Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:17:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.218.25.35) by dfweml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.175) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:17:34 -0700 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.36]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.218.25.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:17:30 -0700 From: Ravi Ravindran To: David Oran Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQ Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:17:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.244.236] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 18:17:47 -0000 SSdtIE9LIHdpdGggdXNpbmcgdGhlIHRlcm1zIExpbmsgb3IgSGludHMsIGl0cyB1c2UgYXMgYSBs b2NhdG9yIGlzIGEgc3BlY2lhbCBjYXNlLCBjb25zaWRlcmluZyB0aGUgc2NvcGUgb2YgdGhlIExp bmsgQWxleCBtZW50aW9uZWQuIEJ1dCB0aGUgZm9yd2FyZGVyIHNob3VsZCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGRp c3Rpbmd1aXNoIHRoZXNlIHR3byBiZWhhdmlvciwgaS5lLiB1c2UgaXQgYXMgYSBoaW50IG9yIHVz ZSBpdCBhcyBleHBsaWNpdCBsb2NhdG9yIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIGRpZmZlcmVudCBuZXR3b3JrIGNv bnRleHRzLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KUmF2aSAgDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0t DQpGcm9tOiBEYXZpZCBPcmFuIFttYWlsdG86ZGF2ZW9yYW5Ab3JhbmRvbS5uZXRdIA0KU2VudDog VHVlc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDA2LCAyMDE2IDc6NTMgQU0NClRvOiBSYXZpIFJhdmluZHJhbg0K Q2M6IEFsZXggQWZhbmFzeWV2OyBpY25yZy1oYXJtb25pemF0aW9uQGlydGYub3JnOyBNYXJrIE1v c2tvOyBMaXhpYSBaaGFuZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtJY25yZy1oYXJtb25pemF0aW9uXSBORE4g dXNlIG9mIG5hbWVsZXNzIERhdGENCg0KDQo+IE9uIFNlcCA2LCAyMDE2LCBhdCAxMDozMiBBTSwg UmF2aSBSYXZpbmRyYW4gPHJhdmkucmF2aW5kcmFuQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4g 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dGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pcnRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lj bnJnLWhhcm1vbml6YXRpb24NCg0K From nobody Tue Sep 6 11:20:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C2712B331 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:20:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gD_xeCMwrUF1 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D54F12B2D7 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.131.118.81] ([173.38.117.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id u86IKJKX032018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:20:21 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.0 \(3225\)) From: David Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:20:14 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3225) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Alex Afanasyev , Mark Mosko , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 18:20:31 -0000 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > I'm OK with using the terms Link or Hints, its use as a locator is a = special case, considering the scope of the Link Alex mentioned. But the = forwarder should be able to distinguish these two behavior, i.e. use it = as a hint or use it as explicit locator considering different network = contexts. >=20 What do you think the difference is? I don=E2=80=99t see any. > Regards, > Ravi =20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:53 AM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; Lixia = Zhang > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >>=20 > This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80=9D = is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid of = it. > There are two related but separate functions: >=20 > a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local = application or a cached copy of the data object. > b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) = above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. > Neither of these requires anything like a locator. >=20 > A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure = (b) out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix = of the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send = the Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the = interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint = in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu]=20 >> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, = there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and = managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names = that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, = border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence = topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we call = locators. >>=20 >> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be managed = by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those names can = be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future for real, I = can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from google, amazon, = netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>=20 >> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>=20 >>> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>=20 >> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few = meetings back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical = differences from what word "locator" implies: >>=20 >> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where = the data may be available. >> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a = specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >>=20 >> -- >> Alex >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >>>=20 >>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in = CCNx, and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>=20 >>> Lixia >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>=20 >>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification and = the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>=20 >>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, = I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can = put one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set = Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects = in the Interest for routing. >>>=20 >>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>=20 >>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>=20 >>> Marc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization From nobody Tue Sep 6 11:32:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D659012B0A9 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:32:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hm5Ji2Fwt_Z0 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4751312B276 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BTW23421; Tue, 06 Sep 2016 13:31:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.218.25.35) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:31:40 -0700 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.36]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.218.25.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:31:36 -0700 From: Ravi Ravindran To: David Oran Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQgAB6hAD//4rggA== Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 18:31:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.244.236] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Alex Afanasyev , Mark Mosko , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB37812B374 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3B3uaQLzDTKe for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF89812B26D for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.131.118.58] ([173.38.117.89]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id u86IoDpk032444 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Sep 2016 11:50:15 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.0 \(3225\)) From: David Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 14:50:07 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3225) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 18:50:23 -0000 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > The difference is, if the network has knowledge of a resource, and = explicitly knows how to reach it via a link that encodes a named storage = service, host, or a border node that takes the interest to another = domain. Why isn=E2=80=99t that just a FIB entry? What am I missing? > Then the network should be able to mark it (also insert such a link if = required) so that the forwarder uses the link to route the Interest to = that name, that=E2=80=99s an interesting design point, independent of the whole = locator thing. Should forwarders be allowed to insert routing hints, or = only consumers? What kind of on-path attacks get opened by this? Can = forwarding paths be diagnosed better/worse if this is allowed? Who is = responsible for checking the signature on such routing information? Is = am I ok with the Russian ISP checking signatures on links purporting to = point to the U.S. but signed by the North Koreans? > instead of working with an assumption that finding the resource with = the Interest name and the link is equally likely. The =E2=80=9Clikeliness=E2=80=9D is usually represented by routing = metrics. Why invent something special? >=20 > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:20 AM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> I'm OK with using the terms Link or Hints, its use as a locator is a = special case, considering the scope of the Link Alex mentioned. But the = forwarder should be able to distinguish these two behavior, i.e. use it = as a hint or use it as explicit locator considering different network = contexts. >>=20 > What do you think the difference is? I don=E2=80=99t see any. >=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi =20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net]=20 >> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:53 AM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; Lixia = Zhang >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >>>=20 >> This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80=9D= is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid of = it. >> There are two related but separate functions: >>=20 >> a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local = application or a cached copy of the data object. >> b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) = above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. >> Neither of these requires anything like a locator. >>=20 >> A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure = (b) out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix = of the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send = the Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the = interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint = in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu]=20 >>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, = there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and = managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names = that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, = border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence = topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we call = locators. >>>=20 >>> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be = managed by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those = names can be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future = for real, I can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from = google, amazon, netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>>=20 >>> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>>=20 >>>> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>>=20 >>> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few = meetings back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical = differences from what word "locator" implies: >>>=20 >>> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where = the data may be available. >>> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a = specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >>> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Alex >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> Ravi >>>>=20 >>>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in = CCNx, and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> Ravi >>>>=20 >>>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>>=20 >>>> Lixia >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>=20 >>>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>>=20 >>>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification = and the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>>=20 >>>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. Therefore, = I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an Interest, I can = put one NameComponent of type ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set = Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and then include one or more Link objects = in the Interest for routing. >>>>=20 >>>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>>=20 >>>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were going = after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache by = feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>>=20 >>>> Marc >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization From nobody Tue Sep 6 12:00:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C5F12B452 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 19:00:16 -0000 V2l0aGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG9mIEludGVyZXN0IE5hbWVzIGFuZCBMaW5rcywgdGhlcmUgaXMg bm90aGluZyBuZXcgaGVyZS4gTXkgcG9pbnQgaXMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHNlbWFudGljcyBvZiBhIGxp bmsgYW5kIGl0cyBpbnRlcnByZXRhdGlvbiBieSB0aGUgbmV0d29yaywgd2hpY2ggY2FuIHZhcnkg d2l0aCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc2l0dWF0aW9ucyBhbmQgaGFzIHRvIGJlIGFjY29tbW9kYXRlZC4gRm9y IGUuZy4gaW4gb3VyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucywgd2UgaW1wbGVtZW50IENDTiByb3V0aW5nIHVz aW5nIE9OT1MuIEhlcmUgdGhlIGxpbmtzIGFyZSBpbnNlcnRlZCBieSB0aGUgZWRnZSBub2Rlcywg YW5kIHVzZWQgdG8gcm91dGUgaW4gdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsuIEFuZCBmb3Igc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2Ug bW9iaWxpdHkgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gc3RhdGUgZm9yIHRoZSBJbnRlcmVzdCBuYW1lcyBpbiB0aGUg 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[131.179.196.220]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b88sm40752574pfe.66.2016.09.06.12.02.35 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 06 Sep 2016 12:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C74E1A44-0B1A-47D0-97A6-91F23350CD6C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail From: Alex Afanasyev In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 12:02:33 -0700 Message-Id: <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Dave Oran , Mark Mosko , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 19:02:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C74E1A44-0B1A-47D0-97A6-91F23350CD6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > Within the context of Interest Names and Links, there is nothing new = here. My point is about the semantics of a link and its interpretation = by the network, which can vary with different situations and has to be = accommodated. For e.g. in our implementations, we implement CCN routing = using ONOS. Here the links are inserted by the edge nodes, and used to = route in the network. And for something like mobility there is no state = for the Interest names in the network at all, hence with this knowledge = looking up by the name is of no use. If the network doesn't use the application names, wouldn't it be = equivalent (=3Dstraightforward) to just encapsulate both Interest and = Data packets into a special "network adaptation" protocol to move them = within that network? --- Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Oran > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:50 AM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> The difference is, if the network has knowledge of a resource, and = explicitly knows how to reach it via a link that encodes a named storage = service, host, or a border node that takes the interest to another = domain. > Why isn=E2=80=99t that just a FIB entry? What am I missing? >=20 >> Then the network should be able to mark it (also insert such a link = if required) so that the forwarder uses the link to route the Interest = to that name, > that=E2=80=99s an interesting design point, independent of the whole = locator thing. Should forwarders be allowed to insert routing hints, or = only consumers? What kind of on-path attacks get opened by this? Can = forwarding paths be diagnosed better/worse if this is allowed? Who is = responsible for checking the signature on such routing information? Is = am I ok with the Russian ISP checking signatures on links purporting to = point to the U.S. but signed by the North Koreans? >=20 >> instead of working with an assumption that finding the resource with = the Interest name and the link is equally likely. > The =E2=80=9Clikeliness=E2=80=9D is usually represented by routing = metrics. Why invent something special? >=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:20 AM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> I'm OK with using the terms Link or Hints, its use as a locator is a = special case, considering the scope of the Link Alex mentioned. But the = forwarder should be able to distinguish these two behavior, i.e. use it = as a hint or use it as explicit locator considering different network = contexts. >>>=20 >> What do you think the difference is? I don=E2=80=99t see any. >>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:53 AM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; Lixia = Zhang >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >>>>=20 >>> This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80=9D= is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid of = it. >>> There are two related but separate functions: >>>=20 >>> a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local = application or a cached copy of the data object. >>> b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) = above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. >>> Neither of these requires anything like a locator. >>>=20 >>> A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to figure = (b) out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a prefix = of the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could send = the Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could send the = interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could us a hint = in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> Ravi >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu] >>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this that, = there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds to, and = managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And the names = that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, routers, = border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure provider, hence = topological and can be used for routing, late binding etc, which we call = locators. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be = managed by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those = names can be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future = for real, I can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from = google, amazon, netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>>>=20 >>>> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>>>=20 >>>>> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>>>=20 >>>> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few = meetings back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical = differences from what word "locator" implies: >>>>=20 >>>> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where = the data may be available. >>>> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to a = specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >>>> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Alex >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ravi >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking :-) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in = CCNx, and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ravi >>>>>=20 >>>>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lixia >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>>>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>=20 >>>>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use of = nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>>>=20 >>>>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification = and the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. = Therefore, I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an = Interest, I can put one NameComponent of type = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and = then include one or more Link objects in the Interest for routing. >>>>>=20 >>>>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were = going after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache = by feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Marc >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization --Apple-Mail=_C74E1A44-0B1A-47D0-97A6-91F23350CD6C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using 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<360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> In-Reply-To: <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.244.236] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Dave Oran , Mark Mosko , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 19:13:12 -0000 SSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gd291bGQgYmUgb24gc2ltaWxhciBsaW5lcyB3aXRoIHRo ZSBkaXNjb3ZlcnkgbWVjaGFuaXNtLCBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBvdmVybG9hZCB0aGUgbmV0d29y ayB0byBoYW5kbGUgdGhpcyBmZWF0dXJlIG9yIGhhbmRsZSBpdCBhcyBhbiBvdmVybGFpZCBwcm90 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b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlydGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWNucmctaGFybW9u aXphdGlvbg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 7 06:05:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4815112B4D1 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 06:05:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9yIGVGsXbL9o for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 06:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2781F12B51F for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 05:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stealth-10-32-245-146.cisco.com (c-24-61-46-100.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.61.46.100]) (authenticated bits=0) by spark.crystalorb.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id u87Cw5p1014872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Sep 2016 05:58:08 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.0 \(3225\)) From: David Oran In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 08:58:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3225) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 13:05:41 -0000 > On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:12 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > I think this discussion would be on similar lines with the discovery = mechanism, if you want to overload the network to handle this feature or = handle it as an overlaid protocol. >=20 > But I think the situation is simpler here, considering NDN already = proposes the link usage in the Interest packet, which is not different = from forwarding-labels we discuss in our draft. The main difference here = is with its semantics, and to broaden its scope to include its = management by the infrastructure provider as well. >=20 For the use case Ravi is focused on (control of forwarding by an = administrative domain when Interests arrive at a domain boundary), it = seems that tunneling is superior to using Link objects or routing hints. = This is so that the policing of ingress and checking of the authenticity = of Link objects only has to be done at entry, and not at every hop. Otherwise, domains will do ugly things like removing link objects at the = domain boundary in order to protect the forwarding behavior of their = interior forwarders. We=E2=80=99ve seen similar lossage with IP where = ISPs blow away DSCPs and ECN marks on entry; I=E2=80=99d rather not = repeat those mistakes with ICN. DaveO. > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:03 PM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: Dave Oran; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> Within the context of Interest Names and Links, there is nothing new = here. My point is about the semantics of a link and its interpretation = by the network, which can vary with different situations and has to be = accommodated. For e.g. in our implementations, we implement CCN routing = using ONOS. Here the links are inserted by the edge nodes, and used to = route in the network. And for something like mobility there is no state = for the Interest names in the network at all, hence with this knowledge = looking up by the name is of no use. >=20 > If the network doesn't use the application names, wouldn't it be = equivalent (=3Dstraightforward) to just encapsulate both Interest and = Data packets into a special "network adaptation" protocol to move them = within that network? >=20 > --- > Alex >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Oran >> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:50 AM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> The difference is, if the network has knowledge of a resource, and = explicitly knows how to reach it via a link that encodes a named storage = service, host, or a border node that takes the interest to another = domain. >> Why isn=E2=80=99t that just a FIB entry? What am I missing? >>=20 >>> Then the network should be able to mark it (also insert such a link = if required) so that the forwarder uses the link to route the Interest = to that name, >> that=E2=80=99s an interesting design point, independent of the whole = locator thing. Should forwarders be allowed to insert routing hints, or = only consumers? What kind of on-path attacks get opened by this? Can = forwarding paths be diagnosed better/worse if this is allowed? Who is = responsible for checking the signature on such routing information? Is = am I ok with the Russian ISP checking signatures on links purporting to = point to the U.S. but signed by the North Koreans? >>=20 >>> instead of working with an assumption that finding the resource with = the Interest name and the link is equally likely. >> The =E2=80=9Clikeliness=E2=80=9D is usually represented by routing = metrics. Why invent something special? >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Ravi >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:20 AM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I'm OK with using the terms Link or Hints, its use as a locator is = a special case, considering the scope of the Link Alex mentioned. But = the forwarder should be able to distinguish these two behavior, i.e. use = it as a hint or use it as explicit locator considering different network = contexts. >>>>=20 >>> What do you think the difference is? I don=E2=80=99t see any. >>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> Ravi >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:53 AM >>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>> Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; Lixia = Zhang >>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >>>>>=20 >>>> This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80=9D= is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid of = it. >>>> There are two related but separate functions: >>>>=20 >>>> a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local = application or a cached copy of the data object. >>>> b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if (a) = above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. >>>> Neither of these requires anything like a locator. >>>>=20 >>>> A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to = figure (b) out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a = prefix of the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could = send the Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could = send the interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could = us a hint in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ravi >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu] >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this = that, there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds = to, and managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And = the names that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, = routers, border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure = provider, hence topological and can be used for routing, late binding = etc, which we call locators. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be = managed by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those = names can be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future = for real, I can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from = google, amazon, netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today (I'm = leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data would = need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few = meetings back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical = differences from what word "locator" implies: >>>>>=20 >>>>> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on where = the data may be available. >>>>> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to = a specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >>>>> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> Alex >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ravi >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that all = objects are named. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking = :-) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in = CCNx, and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ravi >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Lixia >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>>>>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use = of nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification = and the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. = Therefore, I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an = Interest, I can put one NameComponent of type = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and = then include one or more Link objects in the Interest for routing. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were = going after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache = by feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Marc >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Icnrg-harmonization mailing list > Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization From nobody Wed Sep 7 09:28:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45FE112B3BA for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TANkU0msDAcq for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9849D12B3A3 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DDJ72934; Wed, 07 Sep 2016 11:27:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.218.25.36) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:27:33 -0700 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.36]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.218]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 09:27:30 -0700 From: Ravi Ravindran To: David Oran Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQgAB6hAD//4rggAAPr0GAAA6gzWD//45ygIAAdQjwgAC3eYCAAEJloA== Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:27:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.246.228] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 16:27:59 -0000 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X19fX18NCj4gSWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbiBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSWNucmctaGFybW9u aXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pcnRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2ljbnJnLWhhcm1vbml6YXRpb24NCg0K From nobody Wed Sep 7 10:12:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C2612B3E6 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YiDRy6EfFiWA for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spark.crystalorb.net (spark.crystalorb.net [IPv6:2607:fca8:1530::c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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<4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> To: Ravi Ravindran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3225) Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 17:12:40 -0000 > On Sep 7, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >=20 > Not sure, how tunneling is different from overwriting link objects, = isn=E2=80=99t it serving the same purpose ?. No, With tunneling the original Interest with any Link objects or other = directives, pops out at the tunnel endpoint, rather than having been = over-written. > Rather than seeing it doing ugly thing, my opinion is that in a = virtualized ICN infrastructure, there will be a lot of customization of = services. Sure. That=E2=80=99s not my point. My point was that ISPs often = over-ride user intent. If the user does not put directives in the = Interest the ISP is obviously free to optimize anything they want. On = the other hand, if the Interest arrives with some directives (including = things like a Link object that might divert the Interest to some other = path), the ISP ought not to delete it or override it in order to force = traffic onto their own CDN or other service. > So if the provider is offering content delivery or providing mobility = service to particular name prefix, it should have the ability leverage = the domain knowledge to handles those Interest flows more intelligently. Sure, modulo the cautions I mention above. > IMO, for a good foreseeable future we are going to have a demarcation = between the users and the infrastructure providers, This statement makes me very nervous, as it harkens back to the old = Bell-shaped heads that divided the world inappropriately into UNIs and = NNIs. > and flows are going to subjected to policies that benefit its network = and users. Where those interests are aligned, of course. For better or worse, = that=E2=80=99s not always the case. DaveO. >=20 > Regards, > Ravi >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:58 AM > To: Ravi Ravindran > Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; Lixia = Zhang > Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 6, 2016, at 3:12 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>=20 >> I think this discussion would be on similar lines with the discovery = mechanism, if you want to overload the network to handle this feature or = handle it as an overlaid protocol. >>=20 >> But I think the situation is simpler here, considering NDN already = proposes the link usage in the Interest packet, which is not different = from forwarding-labels we discuss in our draft. The main difference here = is with its semantics, and to broaden its scope to include its = management by the infrastructure provider as well. >>=20 > For the use case Ravi is focused on (control of forwarding by an = administrative domain when Interests arrive at a domain boundary), it = seems that tunneling is superior to using Link objects or routing hints. = This is so that the policing of ingress and checking of the authenticity = of Link objects only has to be done at entry, and not at every hop. >=20 > Otherwise, domains will do ugly things like removing link objects at = the domain boundary in order to protect the forwarding behavior of their = interior forwarders. We=E2=80=99ve seen similar lossage with IP where = ISPs blow away DSCPs and ECN marks on entry; I=E2=80=99d rather not = repeat those mistakes with ICN. >=20 > DaveO. >=20 >=20 >> Regards, >> Ravi >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu]=20 >> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 12:03 PM >> To: Ravi Ravindran >> Cc: Dave Oran; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko >> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Within the context of Interest Names and Links, there is nothing new = here. My point is about the semantics of a link and its interpretation = by the network, which can vary with different situations and has to be = accommodated. For e.g. in our implementations, we implement CCN routing = using ONOS. Here the links are inserted by the edge nodes, and used to = route in the network. And for something like mobility there is no state = for the Interest names in the network at all, hence with this knowledge = looking up by the name is of no use. >>=20 >> If the network doesn't use the application names, wouldn't it be = equivalent (=3Dstraightforward) to just encapsulate both Interest and = Data packets into a special "network adaptation" protocol to move them = within that network? >>=20 >> --- >> Alex >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of David Oran >>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:50 AM >>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>> Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev >>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> The difference is, if the network has knowledge of a resource, and = explicitly knows how to reach it via a link that encodes a named storage = service, host, or a border node that takes the interest to another = domain. >>> Why isn=E2=80=99t that just a FIB entry? What am I missing? >>>=20 >>>> Then the network should be able to mark it (also insert such a link = if required) so that the forwarder uses the link to route the Interest = to that name, >>> that=E2=80=99s an interesting design point, independent of the whole = locator thing. Should forwarders be allowed to insert routing hints, or = only consumers? What kind of on-path attacks get opened by this? Can = forwarding paths be diagnosed better/worse if this is allowed? Who is = responsible for checking the signature on such routing information? Is = am I ok with the Russian ISP checking signatures on links purporting to = point to the U.S. but signed by the North Koreans? >>>=20 >>>> instead of working with an assumption that finding the resource = with the Interest name and the link is equally likely. >>> The =E2=80=9Clikeliness=E2=80=9D is usually represented by routing = metrics. Why invent something special? >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>> Ravi >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 11:20 AM >>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>> Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Lixia Zhang; Mark Mosko; Alex = Afanasyev >>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I'm OK with using the terms Link or Hints, its use as a locator is = a special case, considering the scope of the Link Alex mentioned. But = the forwarder should be able to distinguish these two behavior, i.e. use = it as a hint or use it as explicit locator considering different network = contexts. >>>>>=20 >>>> What do you think the difference is? I don=E2=80=99t see any. >>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Ravi >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: David Oran [mailto:daveoran@orandom.net] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:53 AM >>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>> Cc: Alex Afanasyev; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; Mark Mosko; = Lixia Zhang >>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I agree with the distinction between link and locator, but in = administered domains 'links' will most likely will be used as locators, = as you have absolute knowledge of the cache/storage, or the attachment = point of the device etc. In this case, links can be given priority over = the names in the Interest packet, and avoid trying to route on both = these names simultaneously. >>>>>>=20 >>>>> This to me illustrates very well why the term =E2=80=9Clocator=E2=80= =9D is really problematic in the context of ICN. Let=E2=80=99s get rid = of it. >>>>> There are two related but separate functions: >>>>>=20 >>>>> a) how does a forwarder match an interest to either a local = application or a cached copy of the data object. >>>>> b) how does a forwarder decide where to forward the interest if = (a) above returns =E2=80=9Cnot found=E2=80=9D. >>>>> Neither of these requires anything like a locator. >>>>>=20 >>>>> A forwarder can use any information it has at its disposal to = figure (b) out. It could have a useful LPM entry in its FIB matching a = prefix of the name in the interest. It could consult an oracle. It could = send the Interest to the CIA (who knows where the data is). If could = send the interest to the NSA, who undoubtedly already has it. It could = us a hint in the Interest message (e.g. a Link). None of these is a = =E2=80=9Clocators=E2=80=9D. Or perhaps they all are, in which case the = term is equally usless. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Ravi >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Alex Afanasyev [mailto:aa@cs.ucla.edu] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 11:12 PM >>>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>>> Cc: Lixia Zhang; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org; = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Sep 5, 2016, at 10:23 PM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there is any disagreement about this = that, there are two types of names in ICN, one what application binds = to, and managed by the application providers, called identifiers. And = the names that are relevant to the network layer to identify networks, = routers, border nodes, hosts etc, managed by the infrastructure = provider, hence topological and can be used for routing, late binding = etc, which we call locators. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I don't fully agree with the distinction. Some names will be = managed by the operators. However, it does not mean that only those = names can be used to forward Interests. While I cannot predict future = for real, I can see that prefixes for the "popular data" (e.g., from = google, amazon, netflix, etc.) will be reachable directly. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> If we still have routing system similar to what we have today = (I'm leaving the door open here), then not-so-popular application data = would need to be mapped to other names that can guide the interests. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Isn=E2=80=99t the link defined in SNAMP paper same as locators ? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think this is a continuation of the discussion we had a few = meetings back. There is similarity, but there is also semantical = differences from what word "locator" implies: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - (1) The link from SNAMP paper is a hint for the routers on = where the data may be available. >>>>>> - (2) The link does not imply that interests must be forwarded to = a specific "location" to retrieve data, e.g., data can be retrieved from = without using the link or on the way(s) pointed by the link. >>>>>> - (3) The name in the link might not be even a "location", just a = direction(s) or way(s) to follow to have a chance to meet the data. = Here I would like to highlight the fact that some name prefixes would be = announced from different places, i.e., the way(s) to meet the data is = not pre-determined. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Alex >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Ravi >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> From: Lixia Zhang [mailto:lixia@cs.ucla.edu] >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 5:14 PM >>>>>>> To: Ravi Ravindran >>>>>>> Cc: Marc.Mosko@parc.com; icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Ravi Ravindran = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> But one big difference here with CCNx is that, in NDN is that = all objects are named. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Yes, hence the name of the architecture: named data networking = :-) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I think we should reconsider this notion of nameless objects in = CCNx, and define a way to carry locator names in the Interest messages. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Ravi >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> To me the so called "locator" is another misconception. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Lixia >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> From: Icnrg-harmonization = [mailto:icnrg-harmonization-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of = Marc.Mosko@parc.com >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:24 AM >>>>>>> To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>>> Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> There has been a bit of talk about CCNx making explicit the use = of nameless objects, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that one can do = essentially the same thing in NDN using the Interest Link. If CCNx were = to adopt the Link approach to routing indirection, it could be done this = way too (though using the ContentObjectHashRestriction field, not the = implicit digest). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This is based on the 0.2-alpha-3 NDN packet format specification = and the SNAMP-NDN-Scalability.pdf paper. If I have misread something, = please let me know. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The NDN spec says a Name is zero or more NameComponent. = Therefore, I can create a Data object with an empty name. In an = Interest, I can put one NameComponent of type = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and set Min/Max SuffixComponents to 0 and = then include one or more Link objects in the Interest for routing. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> My understanding of NDN is that because the = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent is not in the FIB, a forwarder will = forward via the Link. The nameless Data Object =E2=80=93 having 0 name = components =E2=80=93 will have a FullName of only its = ImplicitSha256DigestComponent and that will match the name in the = Interest. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I believe this use of NDN also maintains the property we were = going after in CCNx nameless objects in that one cannot poison the cache = by feting a Data object by hash that could then later be confused with a = Data object being fetched by prefix or name (unless one put a 0 = component name in the Interest with MaxSuffixComponents of at least 1 = and used Link routing). >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Marc >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >>> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Icnrg-harmonization mailing list >> Icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/icnrg-harmonization >=20 From nobody Wed Sep 7 10:56:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA0E12B27F for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.729 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqTK1c1Ckby4 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client 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References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.244.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Lixia Zhang , Mark Mosko , Alex Afanasyev Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PiBJY25yZy1oYXJtb25pemF0aW9uIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gSWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaXJ0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pY25yZy1oYXJtb25pemF0aW9uDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 7 11:15:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB85712B053 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:14:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 520YkeXVgE-Z for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.parc.xerox.com 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([fe80::8945:a39d:8c92:373f%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:15:10 -0700 From: To: Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQgAB6hAD//4rggAAPr0GAAA6gzWD//45ygIAAdQjwgAC3eYCAAEJloIAABKWAgABq7CD//6aPgA== Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:15:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2AB02FC8-4934-42E5-8FDF-EECD19856E53@parc.com> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [13.4.66.23] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org, lixia@cs.ucla.edu, daveoran@orandom.net, aa@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 18:14:59 -0000 DQpJbiBTTkFNUCwgdGhlIEludGVyZXN0IE5hbWUgaXMgYWx3YXlzIHVzZWQgZmlyc3QsIHRoZW4g dGhlIExpbmsocykgaWYgdGhlIG5hbWUgY2Fubm90IGJlIG1hdGNoZWQgaW4gdGhlIEZJQi4gIElm IHlvdSB3YW50IHRvIGRvIHNvbWUgdHJhZmZpYyBlbmdpbmVlcmluZyByb3V0aW5nIG9uIHRoZSBJ bnRlcmVzdCBpbiB5b3VyIGRvbWFpbiwgSSB0aGluayBwdXR0aW5nIHlvdXIgb3duIGRvbWFpbi1z cGVjaWZpYyBsYWJlbCBvbiB0aGUgSW50ZXJlc3QgaXMgdGhlIHJpZ2h0IHRoaW5nIHRvIGRvLiAg WW91IGRvIG9uZSBuYW1lL2xpbmsgbG9va3VwIG9uIGluZ3Jlc3MsIG1ha2UgYSBkZWNpc2lvbiwg dGhlbiBleGVjdXRlIG9uIHRoYXQgZGVjaXNpb24sIG5vdCByZXBlYXQgaXQgYXQgZXZlcnkgaG9w 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YXRpb24NCj4+PiANCj4+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPj4+IEljbnJnLWhhcm1vbml6YXRpb24gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4gSWNucmct aGFybW9uaXphdGlvbkBpcnRmLm9yZw0KPj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlydGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vaWNucmctaGFybW9uaXphdGlvbg0KPj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Wed Sep 7 11:35:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC501127077 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AdIJNn/8ckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaung== Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:34:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_etPan57d05dc13ae0e3e3cb5localhost_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "aa@cs.ucla.edu" , "daveoran@orandom.net" , "lixia@cs.ucla.edu" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 18:35:35 -0000 --_000_etPan57d05dc13ae0e3e3cb5localhost_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCg0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gSFVBV0VJIEFueU9mZmljZQ0KRnJvbTpNYXJjLk1vc2tvQHBh 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Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E2010DAG5.corp.ad.parc.com ([fe80::3d0b:7158:aec4:e05e]) by e2010hub1.corp.ad.parc.com ([fe80::8945:a39d:8c92:373f%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 11:54:07 -0700 From: To: Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AdIJNn/8ckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaungAPVjKA Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 18:54:07 +0000 Message-ID: <17D732B6-1796-44BA-A54F-C9CDF4C6B9D4@parc.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [13.4.66.22] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_17D732B6179644BAA54FC9CDF4C6B9D4parccom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: daveoran@orandom.net, ravi.ravindran@huawei.com, aa@cs.ucla.edu, icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org, lixia@cs.ucla.edu Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN 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score=-5.729 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJtVIzkHYSgl for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfwrgout.huawei.com (dfwrgout.huawei.com [206.16.17.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A05E12B047 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.9.243 (EHLO DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.9.243]) by dfwrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DDJ82226; Wed, 07 Sep 2016 14:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.218.25.35) by DFWEML703-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:06:35 -0700 Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.36]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.218.25.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:06:28 -0700 From: Ravi Ravindran To: "Marc.Mosko@parc.com" Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQgAB6hAD//4rggAAPr0GAAA6gzWD//45ygIAAdQjwgAC3eYCAAEJloIAABKWAgABq7CD//6aPgIAAaJtQ Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 19:06:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> <2AB02FC8-4934-42E5-8FDF-EECD19856E53@parc.com> In-Reply-To: <2AB02FC8-4934-42E5-8FDF-EECD19856E53@parc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.246.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , "lixia@cs.ucla.edu" , "daveoran@orandom.net" , "aa@cs.ucla.edu" Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 19:06:41 -0000 SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIE1hcmMncyBub3RlIHRoYXQgdXNlIG9mIHR1bm5lbGluZyBpcyBPSyBpZiB0 aGUgZGVjaXNpb24gaXMgcHVyZWx5IGZvciBURSBwdXJwb3NlIG9yIHJvdXRpbmcgYmFzZWQgb24g cHJpdmF0ZSBuYW1lcyBhcyB0aGUgY2FzZSBvZiBWUE5zIHRvZGF5LiBCdXQgaWYgaXQgaXMgYSBz ZXJ2aWNlLWNlbnRyaWMgZGVjaXNpb24sIHRoZW4gZm9yd2FyZGluZyBiYXNlZCBvbiBkb21haW4g 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Thread-Topic: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data Thread-Index: AQHSBGTUckNfPjJQ5026HaHPYKaunqBk8c4ggAch2QD//90pkIAAhseAgAASyzCAAH8GgP//v0KQgAB6hAD//4rggAAPr0GAAA6gzWD//45ygIAAdQjwgAC3eYCAAEJloIAABKWAgABZUdA= Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 19:11:30 +0000 Message-ID: <6759D6D370C7024D9BB22CD5F92D2D3320FD518C@SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com> References: <92ABC834-3C47-4B3C-9D85-83493B8B9414@parc.com> <4F0AFDEA-D3A3-4436-99C3-0D7584FC33C3@orandom.net> <0DD0C66E-8594-421C-A4E7-999F8D4A5CE9@orandom.net> <360DAB7D-40FD-40E1-8612-DE9D3EA83274@cs.ucla.edu> <4473FCDE-6834-4B79-B74D-F58EC6D716D6@orandom.net> <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> In-Reply-To: <3587A676-1CC5-4F28-BF62-47917DD37DB1@orandom.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.212.245.35] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" , Alex Afanasyev , Mark Mosko , Lixia Zhang Subject: Re: [Icnrg-harmonization] NDN use of nameless Data X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 19:12:03 -0000 Qm90aCAibGluayIgYW5kICJmb3J3YXJkaW5nIGxhYmVsIiBhcmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgZGlyZWN0aXZl IHB1cnBvc2UuIFRoZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGlzIHRoZSBvcGVyYXRpb25hbCBzZW1hbnRpY3MuDQoi bGluayIgaXMgbW9yZSBsaWtlIGEgZG9tYWluIG9yIGhvbWUgY29udGFpbmVyIG9mIGEgbmFtZWQg b2JqZWN0LCB3aGljaCBpcyBzcGVjaWZpZWQgYnkgY29uc3VtZXIgYW5kIG5ldmVyIGJlDQp1cGRh dGVkIGluIHRoZSByb3V0ZTsgd2hpbGUgImZvcndhcmRpbmcgbGFiZWwiIGlzIHVzZWQgZm9yIGxh dGUtYmluZGluZyBvZiBhdHRhY2htZW50IHBvaW50IG9mIGEgbmFtZWQgb2JqZWN0DQppbiBtb2Jp bGl0eSwgYW5kIGlzIHN1YmplY3RlZCB0byBiZSB1cGRhdGVkIGFsb25nIHRoZSB3YXkuDQpCZWNh 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Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9CF12B128 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.41 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.41 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.618, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9EUAO5EvaMx for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2016 16:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com 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"icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: ICN Harmonization Call 9/13 cancelled Thread-Index: AdINSz3hfUinfuGgQ0y26NRo4m4EaA== Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:16:24 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.12.26] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_c0b45d093cc441e38d6b933ca54dd6f4XCHRTP015ciscocom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Paul Polakos \(ppolakos\)" Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] ICN Harmonization Call 9/13 cancelled X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 23:16:53 -0000 --_004_c0b45d093cc441e38d6b933ca54dd6f4XCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c0b45d093cc441e38d6b933ca54dd6f4XCHRTP015ciscocom_" --_000_c0b45d093cc441e38d6b933ca54dd6f4XCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, Due to accumulating conflicts, I need to cancel the ICN Harmonization call = scheduled for tomorrow (tue 9/13). My apology for the late notice. I'll be in touch later in the week with followup. Thanks, Paul Paul Polakos CISCO FELLOW.ENGINEERING ppolakos@cisco.com Mobile: +1 908 907-1595 Cisco Systems Limited 111 Wood Avenue South ISELIN NEW JERSEY 08830 US Cisco.com --_000_c0b45d093cc441e38d6b933ca54dd6f4XCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
 
Due to accumulating conflicts, I need to cancel the ICN Harmonization = call scheduled for tomorrow (tue 9/13).  
My apology for the late notice.
 
I’ll be in touch later in the week with followup.
 
Thanks,
Paul
 
 
Paul Polakos CISCO FELLOW.ENGINEERING
ppolakos@cisco.com
Mobile: +1 908 907-1595		 Cisco Systems = Limited
111 Wood Avenue South
ISELIN
NEW JERSEY
08830
US
Cisco.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjgFfgoEBVJQ for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79DFE12B338 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.2.15] ([195.37.70.39]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MQcnt-1bZCUv2meD-00U5nY for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 18:24:09 +0200 To: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org From: Dirk Kutscher Message-ID: <281f060a-4073-4b76-115d-3668f648968f@dkutscher.net> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 18:24:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:OBbq3spqejxCN4db/d5MUkR74ADIDAXuf2AUcNQFybULRVkTDNT pSgP6Mqu48CjniHtYFT5aUU4euA7AOEfzT8/U0ThRNA1Wzqz5jeFgC+EYy6xJpWUhP+4n66 tQvOXK2y69coydN+f8+fOnFEK1qrK7fcrXqsvQ2UJ/0tCJb34Ry6SWJ+ixpp7GMosaheKW5 fAfKkLIKAmxGgBxZWEMJg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:fZuWIb1LfZE=:vhdOQ0+ostYc1/Quv2BrU/ RMOnSyXhX4tevqGgc+gtYO+ayiLA7Jn/IUz1lqG1SL2TDs891CggTMVWYSGPflHw0kFT+d9JA IDLFSux7x6A79cdCh5LaDbJ/Ib7ZdvZCBH7oIjmcdsoZdTr+Po08e9TgOdTUpdLvX4Ii5rn/P OoguBrGVzPj+WhesFMg48CMCvuAY45qsMNMI0y0tOcdOZ+CBJrFsf0UNnHk9pCcPHCyrDDk0L scn0ZbtLs2hD0KofI/809vw/YlVHu7b7Z12fkZR1NhO4p73RjpVYXQ4dFnUDZKsX3inUnipnv rQ9o+8H2grHfmfFdPLhA4mVidc+05WEAN63INWi/2KhD2gipupZHf4sDoXSNxazViw045j1px tFIivnKXcc5m1Qr7wXvwv9m+vHYRM0Tgk+pozGlurkLo1qTS6euQRMfLoPZrZZRbxFxOFACLl N9BtjYMlkqAZrmcpCZNBEaJO6qE7Rb8epMePU2k9PUvvLkxvNtum0ls2bU3IID7/43PNkpV7A KnRvNizrbicetIf4Y2weszJMD8hdWgANF29kh5HPJRsg4KLUDJMA7LNn7Lql7sbvNa30STvq6 VOR4IV6dKzvP2aWRnB5oMu5hycPajZcgddATJNzWEDdazASXNVOJOauiYzw8CbWcg0rFlMaWV cJYiy7I9CPIM0VMwLXk50CuH7+bWuB42TnFrZ2KKmN1a5m3uLdnJ/BwM4drbjBMV7S0vZDwIg e3dXfgxWCIa4RsP6 Archived-At: Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] harmonization summary at Kyoto ICNRG meeting X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 16:24:14 -0000 Hi folks, We (ICNRG chairs) reserved a slot at the ICNRG interim meeting for a reporting on the current status of the harmonization discussions. Would someone be interested in presenting the current state of our discussions so far? This could be a themed as "we agree to disagree on these topics so far". Cheers, Dirk From nobody Mon Sep 19 08:40:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: icnrg-harmonization@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D3812B2BD for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:40:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.836 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.836 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.316, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rjp8-j6lfuID for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E69B12B1F3 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1793; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1474299639; x=1475509239; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=aYXLQcwZ+9TFZG13Mjq7beeoG4UP3ixGq5ddMf5FBmg=; b=JFThiqGyTY4HAQXNIdVPYWpbfPi0qxq0VYICQ1S7+oPY8MMN6NFXyXiz 45DIARvcxbzHsOtyfmIwdbb1yxn7jWRsgEL5+MUCNXpf1vUS0J/1vJqlN RlAbXxrwx0b/n+PdgKpxr1SXvPv4MgrT7lOOcXXnu06nFlKZNfWBaNhCN 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CqAgBsBuBX/4oNJK1dGwEBAQMBAQEJA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBgwczAQEBAQEegVqNLKYxhQ+CA4duOBQBAgEBAQEBAQFeHAuEWBAtOyMBCwF?= =?us-ascii?q?0JgEEG4hColicGgEBAQEGAQEBAQEBIYY3jnQFghuGCoFMhXuKAwGPVI9xjDmEJ?= =?us-ascii?q?QEeNoRqhkYEgSt/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.30,362,1470700800"; d="scan'208,217";a="148797649" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Sep 2016 15:40:38 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u8JFebfJ002300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 15:40:38 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 11:40:37 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 11:40:37 -0400 From: "Paul Polakos (ppolakos)" To: "icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org" Thread-Topic: ICN Harmonization Call 9/20 Cancelled Thread-Index: AdISi+WbktwRSj97S3GY+8X1zIEbFQ== Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 15:40:37 +0000 Message-ID: <7dc6df22efc74fef9701b9a12f1f553e@XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.12.27] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7dc6df22efc74fef9701b9a12f1f553eXCHRTP015ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Icnrg-harmonization] ICN Harmonization Call 9/20 Cancelled X-BeenThere: icnrg-harmonization@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: ICN Harmonization Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 15:40:40 -0000 --_000_7dc6df22efc74fef9701b9a12f1f553eXCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, As we had discussed on our call two weeks ago, given the coming ACM ICN co= nference in Kyoto and ICNRG interim meeting next week and the fact that peo= ple are traveling this week, we will not have a Harmonization call tomorrow= . We'll give a brief readout on the status at the ICNRG meeting next week. Expect that the calls will resume following the meeting in Kyoto. New invi= tes will be sent. Paul --_000_7dc6df22efc74fef9701b9a12f1f553eXCHRTP015ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
 
As we had discussed on our call two weeks ago,  given the coming = ACM ICN conference in Kyoto and ICNRG interim meeting next week and the fac= t that people are traveling this week, we will not have a Harmonization cal= l tomorrow.  We’ll give a brief readout on the status at the ICNRG meeting next week. 
Expect that the calls will resume following the meeting in Kyoto. = ; New invites will be sent.
 
Paul
 
 
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