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Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.

These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01

In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of =
the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition =
which is the authenticated user. =20

Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an =
ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  =
The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20

To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:

*  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not =
include the sub attribute. =20
*  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. =20
* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state change occurred.
*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.

Here would be a new example logout:
{
  <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
  "iss": "https://server.example.com",
  "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458668180,
  "exp": 1458668580,
  "events": [
    "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
  ],
  "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>": {
    <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
    "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
    =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
    "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
    =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
  }
}

In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).

The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.

Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.

It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.

So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events =
own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions =
in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer =
of a security assertion.

I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>






--Apple-Mail=_878C1B1F-3EEF-46EE-9D5F-B654F649A0C6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some discussions that =
have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups =
conference calls.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">These discussions have been about the core spec and the role =
of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=
=9D attributes.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">See: <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</a></di=
v><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In particular =
should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=
=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the event, or =
should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is the =
authenticated user. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe =
that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together. &nbsp;The issuer provides the context for the authenticated =
subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the =
AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of =
discussion, the feeling seems to be the following:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token =
top level attributes should be fairly limited and not include the sub =
attribute. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">* &nbsp;For events that are about =
a user, the relevant event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the =
top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the =
user. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
shall mean the issuer of the event where the state change =
occurred.</div><div class=3D"">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not =
be present in the top level structure. &nbsp;Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 must also be present.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Here would be a new example logout:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">{</pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  &lt;=E2=80=94 top =
level is about the event itself -&gt;
  <font color=3D"#5e30eb" class=3D"">"iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://server.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",
  "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458668180,
  "exp": 1458668580,
  "events": [
    "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</a>"
  ],</font>
 <font color=3D"#e63b7a" class=3D""> "<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</a>": {</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;"><font color=3D"#e63b7a" =
class=3D"">    &lt;- This level is defined entirely by the event =
URI-&gt;
</font><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; page-break-before: always;"><font color=3D"#e63b7a" class=3D"">    =
"iss": "<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</a>",
</font></pre><font color=3D"#e63b7a" class=3D"">    =E2=80=9Cjti": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;"><font color=3D"#e63b7a" class=3D""><font =
size=3D"3" class=3D"">    "sub": =
"248289761001=E2=80=9D,</font></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: =
always;"><font color=3D"#e63b7a" class=3D""><font size=3D"3" class=3D""> =
   =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;
  }</font></font><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">
}</font></pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have =
its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider. &nbsp;The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are =
used to validate the event (signing etc). &nbsp;Where as the nested =
object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the =
profiling specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec). =
&nbsp;In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually translates into =
revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token =
(08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Side note. =
&nbsp;Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to include =
the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received =
an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to =
keep the revocation information for. &nbsp;IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID =
Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at =
the top level describes the subscriber of the event. &nbsp;This may also =
be different then the original audience of the ID Token.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So to conclude. By =
making top-level attributes strictly about the events own validation, =
and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in definitions =
such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a security =
assertion.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets =
continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Aug  9 11:54:48 2016
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/aLhEg5EFUvYfErWlkqhFIDdqJFk>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people =
with too many things.

But I think we agree on all of the below.

I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your =
intention there.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does =
not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events =
data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly =
believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and =
these things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that =
the JWT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe =
claims to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the =
event=E2=80=9D
> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are =
included with events they define and what their format and meanings are. =
 Then the ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it =
being natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular =
claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing =
that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be =
included with an event is entirely event-specific.  The claims to be =
included with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of =
this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil =
Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft
> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01>
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of =
the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition =
which is the authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in =
an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.  The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and =
not include the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the =
event where the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com <https://server.example.com/>",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>": =
{
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com <https://oidc.example.com/>",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the =
events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

--Apple-Mail=_714A4010-99B8-4C09-9793-6EF61F473503
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to =
confuse people with too many things.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But I think we agree on all of the =
below.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention =
there.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; =
Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at =
the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as simple and =
general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT is the =
success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as =
possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same =
here.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I believe that the ID =
Events spec needs to include these things, and these things only:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be =
included and that the JWT be signed by the issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Include a statement along the lines of =
=E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event are to be =
defined by the event=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">And I=E2=80=99d stop =
there.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It should be entirely up =
to applications to say what claims are included with events they define =
and what their format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec =
will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to =
be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As =
soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims by =
events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and =
less natural to use.&nbsp; In particular, the only thing that the spec =
should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike =
all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=
=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an =
event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with =
any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this =
specification.=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil Hunt<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
10:19 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some discussions that =
have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups =
conference calls.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">These discussions have been about the core spec and =
the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =
=E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">See:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</a><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
be used in the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in =
the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to =
the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is =
important to observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together. &nbsp;The issuer provides the context =
for the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is =
that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling =
seems to be the following:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should =
be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevant event =
specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the =
event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that =
sub-object can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer =
of the event where the state change occurred.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the =
top level structure. &nbsp;Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be =
present.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94=
 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp; <span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">"iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://server.example.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</a>",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458668180,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, =
235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"events": [<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, =
235);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</a>"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
],</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""> <span style=3D"color: rgb(230, =
59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</a>": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is defined entirely by =
the event URI-&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, =
59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</a>",<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token =
expiry&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp; }</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the above example note that the =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or =
jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP provider. =
&nbsp;The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) and =
represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an =
individual event and are used to validate the event (signing etc). =
&nbsp;Where as the nested object contains all of the data about the =
event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a possible =
OpenID Logout Event spec). &nbsp;In this case, in OpenID, logging out =
usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D=
 for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout =
object.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Side note. &nbsp;Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, =
it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the =
subscriber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the =
subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocation information =
for. &nbsp;IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber =
would no longer need to track the revocation state.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the =
event. &nbsp;This may also be different then the original audience of =
the ID Token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes =
strictly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the =
event, we avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the =
event, vs. the original issuer of a security assertion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99=
s feedback correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the =
draft to follow the groups thinking here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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From nobody Tue Aug  9 12:40:09 2016
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 12:39:59 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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I was referring to this in your email
"Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D


Is this different from the event uri?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and =
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I =
think we then have a good path forward.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure =
that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=
=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my =
statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D.  What I was trying to get at is was that if =
=E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/logout =
<http://specs.openid.net/logout>=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that =
it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information =
about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, =
hence the unintended confusion J.)
> =20
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people =
with too many things.
> =20
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is =
your intention there.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does =
not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events =
data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly =
believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and =
these things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that =
the JWT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe =
claims to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the =
event=E2=80=9D
> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are =
included with events they define and what their format and meanings are. =
 Then the ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it =
being natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular =
claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing =
that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be =
included with an event is entirely event-specific.  The claims to be =
included with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of =
this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft
> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01>
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of =
the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition =
which is the authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in =
an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.  The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and =
not include the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the =
event where the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com <https://server.example.com/>",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>": =
{
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com <https://oidc.example.com/>",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the =
events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>

--Apple-Mail=_A2CF9C3D-337C-4A6E-B1B1-2AF180E9B402
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I was referring to this in your email<div style=3D"text-indent:=
 -24px;" class=3D"">"<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96); font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; text-indent: -24px;" =
class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim</span><font color=3D"#002060" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D</span></font></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"text-indent: -24px;" class=3D""><font color=3D"#002060" =
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div style=3D"text-indent: =
-24px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is this =
different from the event uri?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on =
keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree =
with my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path forward.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that =
we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D&nbsp; The only place I used the =
word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9C</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; =
What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a =
href=3D"http://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://specs.openid.net/logout</a>=E2=80=9D is used as an =
event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT =
containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not =
using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">.)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
12:07 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to =
confuse people with too many things.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">But I think we agree on all of the below.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =
=E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the =
summary below does not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to =
keep the ID Events data structure as simple and general-purpose as =
possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT is the success it is =
because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as possible, and we =
should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I believe that the ID =
Events spec needs to include these things, and these things =
only:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
0.5in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
0.5in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be =
included and that the JWT be signed by the issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Include a statement along the lines of =
=E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event are to be =
defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">And I=E2=80=99d stop =
there.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It should be entirely up to applications to =
say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec will be as =
general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be used in =
essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As soon as we start =
putting restrictions on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99=
re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to =
use.&nbsp; In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about =
the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims =
other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether =
the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is =
entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with any =
particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this =
specification.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil Hunt<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
10:19 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some discussions that =
have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups =
conference calls.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">These discussions have been about the =
core spec and the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. =
event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">See:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span><=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
be used in the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in =
the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to =
the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is =
important to observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together. &nbsp;The issuer provides the context =
for the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is =
that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, =
the feeling seems to be the following:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level =
attributes should be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;For events =
that are about a user, the relevant event specification may include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-object =
and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the =
issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state change occurred.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not =
be present in the top level structure. &nbsp;Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 must also be present.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Here =
would be a new example logout:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">{<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself =
-&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458668180,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, =
235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"events": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, =
235);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
],</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""> <span style=3D"color: rgb(230, =
59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is defined entirely by =
the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, =
59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": =
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token =
expiry&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp; }</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the above example note that the =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or =
jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP provider. =
&nbsp;The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) and =
represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an =
individual event and are used to validate the event (signing etc). =
&nbsp;Where as the nested object contains all of the data about the =
event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a possible =
OpenID Logout Event spec). &nbsp;In this case, in OpenID, logging out =
usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D=
 for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout =
object.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Side note. &nbsp;Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=
=80=9D, it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case =
the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the =
subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocation information =
for. &nbsp;IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber =
would no longer need to track the revocation state.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the =
event. &nbsp;This may also be different then the original audience of =
the ID Token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">So to conclude. By making top-level =
attributes strictly about the events own validation, and nested objects =
about the event, we avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer =
of the event, vs. the original issuer of a security assertion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99=
s feedback correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the =
draft to follow the groups thinking here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 16:14:51 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event
level and not at the top level:

In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D
> claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=
=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether
> the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entire=
ly event-specific.


A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.

Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?


Marius

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> I was referring to this in your email
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>
>
> Is this different from the event uri?
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and genera=
l-purpose
> as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then have a
> good path forward.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that =
we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What
> is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=
=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in
> my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-leve=
l claim=E2=80=9D.
> What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.n=
et/logout=E2=80=9D
> is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the
> JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using=
 the
> correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <phil.hunt@oracle.com>]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wi=
th too many
> things.
>
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your =
intention there.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not
> include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data
> structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe
> that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and
> general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful example
> and do the same here.)
>
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and thes=
e
> things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the =
JWT be signed by the
> issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims t=
o be included
> with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D
>
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included
> with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the
> ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being
> natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims
> by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose a=
nd less
> natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say
> about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cla=
ims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99
> and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to =
be included with an event is
> entirely event-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular
> event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> *To:* id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token
> draft
>
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been
> happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference
> calls.
>
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of
> =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=
=9D attributes.
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the
> subject (in the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be
> constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated
> user.
>
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an I=
D
> Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The =
issuer provides the context for
> the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it
> might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event.
>
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the
> following:
>
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not
> include the sub attribute.
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-=
object and not in the
> top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the use=
r.
>
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state
> change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure=
.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
> must also be present.
>
> Here would be a new example logout:
>
> {
>
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>
>   "events": [
>
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>
>   ],
>
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can hav=
e its own iss and
> subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP
> provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) and
> represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to
> validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains al=
l
> of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification
> (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID,
> logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=
=9Cjti=E2=80=9D
> for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to inc=
lude the expiry
> of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token.
> This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocati=
on
> information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subs=
criber
> would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top leve=
l describes the
> subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the original
> audience of the ID Token.
>
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events
> own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions i=
n
> definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a
> security assertion.
>
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets=
 continue to
> discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking here.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>

--089e0122f43860a6140539abb469
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up=
 at the event level and not at the top level:<div><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In particular, the only thing that the s=
pec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike =
all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=
=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an even=
t is entirely event-specific.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>A top level s=
ub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.</div><div><br></div><div>Do we=
 have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?</div><div=
><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div=
>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I was referring to this in your e=
mail<div>&quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;font-size:15px">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level c=
laim</span><font color=3D"#002060" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:15px">=E2=80=9D</span></font></div><div><div><font color=3D"#=
002060" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:15px"><br></s=
pan></font></div><div><br></div><div>Is this different from the event uri?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple=
-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-sp=
acing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><di=
v><br></div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independent=
id.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div>=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@=
oracle.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br class=3D"m_-653443557363967378=
6Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-=
interchange-newline"><br class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-interchange-n=
ewline">
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-653443557363=
9673786Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786=
WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,=
serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple=
 and general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.=C2=A0=
 I think we then have a good path forward.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New R=
oman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(=
0,32,96)">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention the=
re.<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0=
,32,96)">=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9C</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Define that an event name can=
 be used as a top-level claim</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 What I was tryin=
g to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://specs.openid.net/logo=
ut" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">http=
://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</a>=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that=
 it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information abou=
t the event.=C2=A0 (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, he=
nce the unintended confusion<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Wingdings;color:rgb(0,32,96)">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">.)<u></u><u></u></span></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks again,<u></u><u></u></=
span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wb=
r>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --=
 Mike<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a name=3D"m_-653443=
5573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></div><=
span></span><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-colo=
r:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">F=
rom:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
Phil Hunt [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto=
:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-65344355736396737=
86Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br><=
b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D=
"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailt=
o:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:=
</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I didn=E2=80=99t cov=
er this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people with too many things.<u>=
</u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=
=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span>@independentid<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span><a href=3D"http://www.inde=
pendentid.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,se=
rif"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,ser=
if"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#=
39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks for writing this, Phil.=
=C2=A0 Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which=
 at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as simple and gene=
ral-purpose as possible. =C2=A0(I strongly believe that JWT is the success =
it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as possible, and we=
 should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I believe that the ID Ev=
ents spec needs to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D clai=
m</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0=
,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Define that an event name can b=
e used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"m=
argin-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7p=
t;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_=
-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Requi=
re that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the=
 issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color=
:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786=
apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Include a statement along =
the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event a=
re to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">It should be entirely up to ap=
plications to say what claims are included with events they define and what=
 their format and meanings are.=C2=A0 Then the ID Events spec will be as ge=
neral-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be used in essen=
tially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New R=
oman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(0,32,96)">As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of=
 particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.=C2=A0 In particular, the only thin=
g that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=
=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be includ=
ed with an event is entirely event-specific.=C2=A0 The claims to be include=
d with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specif=
ication.=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0=
,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225=
,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,se=
rif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:=
</span></b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id-event [=
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span></b>Phil Hunt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639=
673786apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<=
br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subje=
ct:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I thought I would upda=
te the list on some discussions that have been happening over in the OpenID=
 Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">These discussions have been about the core sp=
ec and the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=
=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attributes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">See:<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-hunt-idevent-token-01" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>ht=
ml/draft-hunt-idevent-token-<wbr>01</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
be used in the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the =
broader english sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAM=
L/ID Token definition which is the authenticated user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Taken in the narrower defini=
tion, it is important to observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.=C2=A0 The issuer provides the conte=
xt for the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is th=
at it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">To summarize a fair a=
mount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">* =C2=A0The Event Token top le=
vel attributes should be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">* =
=C2=A0For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification ma=
y include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-=
object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include t=
he issuer of the user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the iss=
uer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">* =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should=
 not be present in the top level structure.=C2=A0 Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D must also be present.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0 &lt;=E2=80=
=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;">=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://server.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://server.exam=
ple.com</span></a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)"=
>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&q=
uot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48=
,235)">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668=
580,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,=
235)">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net=
/<wbr>logout</span></a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">=C2=A0 ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://=
specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/<wbr=
>logout</span></a>&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- This level is define=
d entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.e=
xample.com</span></a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cjti&quot;: &quot=
;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(230,59,122)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(230,59,12=
2)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(2=
30,59,122)">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">In=
 the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have it=
s own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of =
an OpenID OP provider.=C2=A0 The issuer of the event can be different (the =
top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed)=
.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">The top-level=
 attributes identify an individual event and are used to validate the event=
 (signing etc).=C2=A0 Where as the nested object contains all of the data a=
bout the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a possib=
le OpenID Logout Event spec).=C2=A0 In this case, in OpenID, logging out us=
ually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D =
for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Side note.=C2=A0 R=
egarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to include the expiry=
 of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token. T=
his would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocation =
information for.=C2=A0 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the s=
ubscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">It is also good to observe t=
hat the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of =
the event.=C2=A0 This may also be different then the original audience of t=
he ID Token.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">So=
 to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events own =
validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in defi=
nitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a secur=
ity assertion.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=
I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets c=
ontinue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking h=
ere.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Tim=
es New Roman&#39;,serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;,serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">www.independentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div></div></div><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"=
>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing list</span><=
br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
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Probably not. There is a reason to say that multiple related events could be=
 in the same message.=20

For example a scim acnt reset and a risc reset.=20

Thought it doesn't have to be that way.=20

More likely adding extensions might be important later on. Eg to provide cla=
ssification or proprietary signaling needs.=20

Phil

> On Aug 9, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event le=
vel and not at the top level:
>=20
>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
>=20
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>=20
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>> I was referring to this in your email
>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>>=20
>> Is this different from the event uri?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and gener=
al-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then=
 have a good path forward.
>>> =20
>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that=
 we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  T=
he only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  W=
hat I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/l=
ogout=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim=
 name in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m=
 not using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>>> =20
>>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>> =20
>>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token=
 draft
>>> =20
>>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people w=
ith too many things.
>>> =20
>>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>>> =20
>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your=
 intention there.
>>> =20
>>> Phil
>>> =20
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wr=
ote:
>>> =20
>>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does no=
t include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data s=
tructure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe tha=
t JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose=
 as possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same h=
ere.)
>>> =20
>>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and the=
se things only:
>>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
>>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the=
 JWT be signed by the issuer
>>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims t=
o be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=
=9D
>>> =20
>>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>>> =20
>>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included=
 with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the I=
D Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural f=
or it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>>> =20
>>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims=
 by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and=
 less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular event are expli=
citly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>>> =20
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>> =20
>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt=

>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>>> To: id-event@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token dra=
ft
>>> =20
>>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been hap=
pening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.
>>> =20
>>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9C=
top-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attribut=
es.=20
>>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>> =20
>>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=
=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the ev=
ent, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is th=
e authenticated user. =20
>>> =20
>>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an I=
D Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The i=
ssuer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The pro=
blem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing th=
e event. =20
>>> =20
>>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the fo=
llowing:
>>> =20
>>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not=
 include the sub attribute. =20
>>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification ma=
y include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-o=
bject and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the=
 issuer of the user. =20
>>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event=
 where the state change occurred.
>>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structur=
e.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>>> =20
>>> Here would be a new example logout:
>>> {
>>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>>   "events": [
>>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>>   ],
>>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>>   }
>>> }
>>> =20
>>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can ha=
ve its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context=
 of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the to=
p-level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>>> =20
>>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to va=
lidate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of t=
he data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a=
 possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out u=
sually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D f=
or the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>>> =20
>>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to in=
clude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received=
 an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep t=
he revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expire=
d, the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>>> =20
>>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top lev=
el describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then t=
he original audience of the ID Token.
>>> =20
>>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events=
 own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in d=
efinitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a sec=
urity assertion.
>>> =20
>>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Let=
s continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking=
 here.
>>> =20
>>> Phil
>>> =20
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Probably not. There is a reason to say=
 that multiple related events could be in the same message.&nbsp;</div><div i=
d=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">For exampl=
e a scim acnt reset and a risc reset.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatu=
re"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thought it doesn't have to be t=
hat way.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Appl=
eMailSignature">More likely adding extensions might be important later on. E=
g to provide classification or proprietary signaling needs.&nbsp;<br><br>Phi=
l</div><div><br>On Aug 9, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Mike, are you suggesting=
 that a sub claim can only show up at the event level and not at the top lev=
el:<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">In particu=
lar, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=
=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to=
 be included with an event is entirely event-specific.</blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events p=
er message?</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D=
"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"=
>Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I was referring to this in your email<=
div>"<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:15px">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><=
font color=3D"#002060" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:15px">=E2=80=9D</span></font></div><div><div><font color=3D"#002060" face=3D=
"Calibri, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:15px"><br></span></font></div=
><div><br></div><div>Is this different from the event uri?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-styl=
e-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:=
0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br><=
/div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</=
a></div><div><br></div></div><br class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-interc=
hange-newline"></div><br class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-interchange-ne=
wline"><br class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jo=
nes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-653443557363967=
3786Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Word=
Section1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I=E2=
=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and general-purpo=
se as possible and that you agree with my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then ha=
ve a good path forward.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>&n=
bsp;<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mea=
n by =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=E2=80=9D&nbsp; The only place I used=
 the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9C</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">De=
fine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=E2=80=9D=
.&nbsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http:=
//specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</a>=E2=80=9D is used as=
 an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containi=
ng information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the corre=
ct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span class=3D"m_-653443557363=
9673786Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:rgb(0,32,96)">J</span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">.)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roma=
n',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color=
:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif"><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>&n=
bsp;<u></u></span></a></div><span></span><div><div style=3D"border-style:sol=
id none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:=
3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-653443557363967378=
6Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-65344=
35573639673786Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12=
:07 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a><br><b>Sub=
ject:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<=
u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><=
u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=
=E2=80=99t want to confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">But I th=
ink we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"=
><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I=E2=80=99m not sure tha=
t we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fon=
t-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u></u></span></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'=
Times New Roman',serif"><span><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Ro=
man',serif"><span>@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'=
,serif"><span><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Tim=
es New Roman',serif"><span><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roma=
n',serif"><span><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',=
serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div=
><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',ser=
if">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New=
 Roman',serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Thanks fo=
r writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the summary below does not includ=
e my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure=
 as simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that J=
WT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as=
 possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">I believe that the ID Events s=
pec needs to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span=
 class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Symbol;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JW=
T be signed by the issuer</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"marg=
in-left:0.5in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Symbo=
l;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7pt;color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-65344355736396=
73786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">Include a statement alo=
ng the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event=
 are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times Ne=
w Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'=
,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included wit=
h events they define and what their format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the I=
D Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural f=
or it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times=
 New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use o=
f particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less g=
eneral-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp; In particular, the only thing t=
hat the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=
=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98is=
s=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with a=
n event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with any=
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=
- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;bo=
rder-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-s=
pace"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;</=
span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Id=
-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wb=
r>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil Hunt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573=
639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 A=
M<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:=
</b><span class=3D"m_-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:'Times New Roman',serif">I thought I would update the list on some discu=
ssions that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working g=
roups conference calls.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nb=
sp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">These discussions=
 have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D a=
ttributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">See:<span class=3D"m_-653443557=
3639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://tools.ietf=
.org/<wbr>html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-<wbr>01</span></a><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'=
Times New Roman',serif">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used i=
n the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader en=
glish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New=
 Roman',serif">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe t=
hat in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go toget=
her.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject ide=
ntifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) whi=
ch is issuing the event. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Rom=
an',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">To s=
ummarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the following:=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level a=
ttributes should be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">* &nbsp;For events t=
hat are about a user, the relevant event specification may include a =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the t=
op-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the user. &=
nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">* The top-level =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event where the state change=
 occurred.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">* &nbsp;=E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure.&nbsp; A=
lso, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.<u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New'">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is a=
bout the event itself -&gt;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">&nbsp; <span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(94,48,235)">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; "jti": "<=
wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; "=
events": [</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>"</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(94,48,235)">&nbsp; ],</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New'"> <span style=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https=
://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/<wb=
r>logout</span></a>": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(230,59,122)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is defined entirely by t=
he event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(230=
,59,122)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New'"><span style=3D"color:rgb(230,59,122)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9C=
jti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New'"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(230,59,122)">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(230,59,122)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cex=
p=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(230,59,122)">&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew'"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Ro=
man',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">In=
 the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have its=
 own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an=
 OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event can be different (the top=
-level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The top-level attributes identify an i=
ndividual event and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Wher=
e as the nested object contains all of the data about the event and is defin=
ed by the profiling specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec)=
.&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revokin=
g an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...8=
43ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Tim=
es New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',=
serif">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be usef=
ul to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet r=
eceived an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to=
 keep the revocation information for.&nbsp; IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Tok=
en is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation s=
tate.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">It is also good to observe tha=
t the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the=
 event.&nbsp; This may also be different then the original audience of the I=
D Token.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">So to conclude. By making t=
op-level attributes strictly about the events own validation, and nested obj=
ects about the event, we avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer o=
f the event, vs. the original issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:'Times New Roman',serif">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s fee=
dback correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to fol=
low the groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman'=
,serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:'Times New Roman',serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">@=
independentid<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><a href=
=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',ser=
if"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@or=
acle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div></div>=
</div></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;displ=
ay:inline!important">______________________________<wbr>_________________</s=
pan><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing=
 list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto=
:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/id-event" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>=
listinfo/id-event</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>__________=
____________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><=
br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body><=
/html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
Thread-Index: AQHR8mIWLvqeOEkcuEuQk5SeT4z/pKBA9pTwgAAG/gCAAABNAIAACP2AgAA8CICAAmTu0A==
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you provide a=
 rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. Top lev=
el should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20

Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best to mo=
ve all event specifics to the event object area. This way different events c=
an have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is n=
eeded to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with=
 the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked to=
ken without conflicting with the event jti.=20

I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on fee=
dback from the openid risc/connect discussions.

We can always change again.=20

Phil

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the=
 top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur a=
t the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D i=
s used in that way for that event.
> =20
> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt t=
here are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  By definiti=
on, related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a com=
patible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
> =20
> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event p=
er JWT.
> =20
>                                                                      -- Mi=
ke
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event le=
vel and not at the top level:
> =20
> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
> =20
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
> =20
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
> I was referring to this in your email
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
> =20
> =20
> Is this different from the event uri?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and general=
-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then h=
ave a good path forward.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that w=
e need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  The=
 only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=
=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  Wha=
t I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/log=
out=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim n=
ame in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m n=
ot using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
> =20
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wit=
h too many things.
> =20
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your i=
ntention there.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not i=
nclude my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data stru=
cture as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe that J=
WT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as=
 possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and these=
 things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the J=
WT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to=
 be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included w=
ith events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the ID E=
vents spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for=
 it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims b=
y events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and l=
ess natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say a=
bout the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims o=
ther than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=
=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-s=
pecific.  The claims to be included with any particular event are explicitly=
 outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=

> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been happe=
ning over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9Ct=
op-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attribute=
s.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=
=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the ev=
ent, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is th=
e authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an ID=
 Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The is=
suer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The prob=
lem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the=
 event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the foll=
owing:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not i=
nclude the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may i=
nclude a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-obje=
ct and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the is=
suer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event w=
here the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure.=
  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have=
 its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context o=
f an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-=
level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to vali=
date the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of th=
e data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a=
 possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out u=
sually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D f=
or the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to incl=
ude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received a=
n ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the=
 revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired,=
 the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level=
 describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the=
 original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events o=
wn validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in de=
finitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a secu=
rity assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets c=
ontinue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking he=
re.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

--Apple-Mail-3AC76CF9-7273-48C4-944B-C471ACB2E24D
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I think using sub at the top level lea=
ds to complexity. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or no=
t by an individual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used the same=
 way by all implementers.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></di=
v><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we disc=
ussed that it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object a=
rea. This way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/i=
ss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be p=
rovided without conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and i=
ss can be used for a revoked token without conflicting with the event jti.&n=
bsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based o=
n feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.</div><div id=3D"AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">We can always change a=
gain.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Au=
g 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@micro=
soft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particular event d=
efines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for multip=
le events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>unrel=
ated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compat=
ible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use ca=
se is likely to be a single event per JWT.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@o=
racle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-ev=
ent@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only sh=
ow up at the event level and not at the top level:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible I=
MO.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple ev=
ents per message?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can be used a=
s a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.ind=
ependentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree o=
n keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree wi=
th my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=
=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. Wha=
t is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D&nbsp;
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://s=
pecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the J=
WT containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not usin=
g the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span class=3D"m-65=
34435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">J</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">.=
)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#002060">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want t=
o confuse people with too many things.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Un=
fortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the es=
sence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT i=
s the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as pos=
sible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec needs=
 to include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the is=
suer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any p=
articular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to application=
s to say what claims are included with events they define and what their for=
mat and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be u=
sed in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restriction=
s on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Eve=
nts spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp;
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The=
 claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D=
"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<sp=
an class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phi=
l
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussions=
 that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups=
 conference calls.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and t=
he role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextensi=
on=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-ide=
vent-token-01" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in=
 the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader eng=
lish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to o=
bserve that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D g=
o together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subj=
ect identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling=
 seems to be the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should b=
e fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevan=
t event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within t=
he event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-obj=
ect can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the i=
ssuer of the event where the state change occurred.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present i=
n the top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be=
 present.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.=
example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://server.=
example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd=
4e7d30",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "events": [</span><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://sp=
ecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.n=
et/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.open=
id.net/logout</span></a>": {</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is de=
fined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https=
://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a501=
9c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub"=
: "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp; }</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning w=
ithin the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event ca=
n be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event=
 and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested=
 object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profi=
ling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usual=
ly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for t=
he ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, i=
t might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscrib=
er has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how l=
ong it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp;
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no long=
er need to track the revocation state.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may a=
lso be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strict=
ly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we a=
void collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the orig=
inal issuer of a security assertion.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedbac=
k correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow t=
he groups thinking here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">=
Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span><=
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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References: <14E2EF51-7123-4E91-87DD-56AEA08202C1@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB1645C699D5475DA865258110F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E7BDEC4F-5F22-45E8-A18E-2B2DDDEEE0EA@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB16458A377399DFECBA108D17F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E3D7164D-943B-482B-A0DF-7F60B6BFECAB@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpKmZVWHwGUsLRvrZ5u_APx3Nj_z-p=DNsaH8gHJMM=LTw@mail.gmail.com> <SN1PR0301MB164547C185B3ECB3AD9BDDC1F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <3F0DD3E6-46CD-4AA5-8F06-F79140F5D4BE@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164529CA9F3E68306F2F2EB2F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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How do you resolve the conflict that arises around iss since iss must be the=
 entity that signed the event and will often not be the one that issued the o=
riginal idtoken in the case of openid(and which uniquely qualifies sub).=20

Phil

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different fr=
om any other claim that an event might place at the top level.
> =20
> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-ca=
sed.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of t=
he specification.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you provide=
 a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. Top l=
evel should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20
> =20
> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best to m=
ove all event specifics to the event object area. This way different events c=
an have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is n=
eeded to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with=
 the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked to=
ken without conflicting with the event jti.=20
> =20
> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on f=
eedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
> =20
> We can always change again.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the=
 top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur a=
t the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D i=
s used in that way for that event.
> =20
> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt t=
here are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  By definiti=
on, related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a com=
patible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
> =20
> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event p=
er JWT.
> =20
>                                                                      -- Mi=
ke
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event le=
vel and not at the top level:
> =20
> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
> =20
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
> =20
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
> I was referring to this in your email
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
> =20
> =20
> Is this different from the event uri?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and general=
-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then h=
ave a good path forward.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that w=
e need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D   Th=
e only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=
=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  Wha=
t I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/log=
out=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim n=
ame in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m n=
ot using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
> =20
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wit=
h too many things.
> =20
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your i=
ntention there.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not i=
nclude my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data stru=
cture as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe that J=
WT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as=
 possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and these=
 things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the J=
WT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to=
 be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included w=
ith events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the ID E=
vents spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for=
 it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims b=
y events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and l=
ess natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say a=
bout the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims o=
ther than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=
=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-s=
pecific.  The claims to be included with any particular event are explicitly=
 outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=

> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been happe=
ning over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9Ct=
op-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attribute=
s.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=
=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the ev=
ent, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is th=
e authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an ID=
 Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The is=
suer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The prob=
lem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the=
 event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the foll=
owing:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not i=
nclude the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may i=
nclude a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-obje=
ct and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the is=
suer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event w=
here the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure.=
  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have=
 its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context o=
f an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-=
level) and represents the  entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to vali=
date the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of th=
e data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a=
 possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out u=
sually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D f=
or the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to incl=
ude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received a=
n ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the=
 revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired,=
 the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level=
 describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the=
 original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events o=
wn validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in de=
finitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a secu=
rity assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets c=
ontinue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking he=
re.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>How do you resolve the conflict that a=
rises around iss since iss must be the entity that signed the event and will=
 often not be the one that issued the original idtoken in the case of openid=
(and which uniquely qualifies sub).&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature=
"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the particul=
ar event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, t=
hen it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, b=
ecause it limits the applicability of the specification.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt (IDM) [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexit=
y. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individ=
ual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all imp=
lementers.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that=
 it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This=
 way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, j=
it/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the iss=
uer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token with=
out conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give som=
e examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particular event d=
efines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for multip=
le events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>unrel=
ated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compat=
ible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use ca=
se is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@o=
racle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only sh=
ow up at the event level and not at the top level:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible I=
MO.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple ev=
ents per message?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can be used a=
s a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.ind=
ependentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree o=
n keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree wi=
th my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=
=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. Wha=
t is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D&nbsp;
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://s=
pecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the J=
WT containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not usin=
g the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span class=3D"m-65=
34435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">J</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">.=
)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#002060">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want t=
o confuse people with too many things.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Un=
fortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the es=
sence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT i=
s the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as pos=
sible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec needs=
 to include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the is=
suer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any p=
articular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to application=
s to say what claims are included with events they define and what their for=
mat and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be u=
sed in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restriction=
s on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Eve=
nts spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp;
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The=
 claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D=
"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<sp=
an class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phi=
l
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussions=
 that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups=
 conference calls.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and t=
he role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextensi=
on=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-ide=
vent-token-01" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in=
 the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader eng=
lish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to o=
bserve that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D g=
o together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subj=
ect identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling=
 seems to be the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should b=
e fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevan=
t event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within t=
he event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-obj=
ect can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the i=
ssuer of the event where the state change occurred.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present i=
n the top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be=
 present.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.=
example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://server.=
example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd=
4e7d30",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "events": [</span><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://sp=
ecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.n=
et/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.open=
id.net/logout</span></a>": {</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is de=
fined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https=
://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a501=
9c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub"=
: "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp; }</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning w=
ithin the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event ca=
n be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event=
 and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested=
 object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profi=
ling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usual=
ly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for t=
he ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, i=
t might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscrib=
er has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how l=
ong it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp;
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no long=
er need to track the revocation state.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may a=
lso be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strict=
ly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we a=
void collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the orig=
inal issuer of a security assertion.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedbac=
k correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow t=
he groups thinking here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">=
Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span><=
/a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>


</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body><=
/html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/7k5bJ4nQRoHZleQr0pYAFe4miz8>
Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the issue=
r of the event as the issuer signs.=20

If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously objecte=
d to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But that isnt uni=
que and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer a=
t the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex n=
ot to mention awkward.=20

If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token would no=
t be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in format.=20

Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for example?

Phil

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different fr=
om any other claim that an event might place at the top level.
> =20
> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-ca=
sed.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of t=
he specification.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you provide=
 a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. Top l=
evel should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20
> =20
> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best to m=
ove all event specifics to the event object area. This way different events c=
an have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is n=
eeded to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with=
 the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked to=
ken without conflicting with the event jti.=20
> =20
> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on f=
eedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
> =20
> We can always change again.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the=
 top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur a=
t the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D i=
s used in that way for that event.
> =20
> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt t=
here are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  By definiti=
on, related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a com=
patible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
> =20
> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event p=
er JWT.
> =20
>                                                                      -- Mi=
ke
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event le=
vel and not at the top level:
> =20
> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
> =20
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
> =20
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
> I was referring to this in your email
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
> =20
> =20
> Is this different from the event uri?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and general=
-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then h=
ave a good path forward.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that w=
e need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D   Th=
e only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=
=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  Wha=
t I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/log=
out=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim n=
ame in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m n=
ot using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
> =20
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wit=
h too many things.
> =20
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your i=
ntention there.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
> =20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not i=
nclude my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data stru=
cture as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe that J=
WT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as=
 possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and these=
 things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the J=
WT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to=
 be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included w=
ith events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the ID E=
vents spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for=
 it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims b=
y events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and l=
ess natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say a=
bout the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims o=
ther than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=
=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-s=
pecific.  The claims to be included with any particular event are explicitly=
 outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=

> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been happe=
ning over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9Ct=
op-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attribute=
s.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=
=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the ev=
ent, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is th=
e authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an ID=
 Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The is=
suer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The prob=
lem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the=
 event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the foll=
owing:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not i=
nclude the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may i=
nclude a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-obje=
ct and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the is=
suer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event w=
here the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure.=
  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have=
 its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context o=
f an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-=
level) and represents the  entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to vali=
date the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of th=
e data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a=
 possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out u=
sually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D f=
or the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to incl=
ude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received a=
n ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the=
 revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired,=
 the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level=
 describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the=
 original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events o=
wn validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in de=
finitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a secu=
rity assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets c=
ontinue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking he=
re.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>How do you resolve conflicts on iss th=
en? &nbsp;The top level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer sign=
s.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailS=
ignature">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previous=
ly objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But tha=
t isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an eve=
nt issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems incredibl=
y complex not to mention awkward.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">=
<br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">If we make sub a uri for all then i=
t can work ass iss from id token would not be needed. But i can see many obj=
ecting to the change in format.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><b=
r></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Why not have a logout be an event wit=
h an id token attached for example?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>=
Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the particul=
ar event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, t=
hen it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, b=
ecause it limits the applicability of the specification.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt (IDM) [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexit=
y. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individ=
ual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all imp=
lementers.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that=
 it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This=
 way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, j=
it/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the iss=
uer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token with=
out conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give som=
e examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particular event d=
efines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for multip=
le events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>unrel=
ated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compat=
ible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use ca=
se is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@o=
racle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only sh=
ow up at the event level and not at the top level:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible I=
MO.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple ev=
ents per message?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can be used a=
s a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"http://www.ind=
ependentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree o=
n keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree wi=
th my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=
=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. Wha=
t is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D&nbsp;
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://s=
pecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the J=
WT containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not usin=
g the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span class=3D"m-65=
34435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">J</span><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">.=
)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#002060">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want t=
o confuse people with too many things.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Un=
fortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the es=
sence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT i=
s the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as pos=
sible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec needs=
 to include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the is=
suer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any p=
articular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to application=
s to say what claims are included with events they define and what their for=
mat and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be u=
sed in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restriction=
s on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Eve=
nts spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp;
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The=
 claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class=3D"m-65344355736396737=
86apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event
 [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D=
"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<sp=
an class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phi=
l
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussions=
 that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups=
 conference calls.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and t=
he role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextensi=
on=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-ide=
vent-token-01" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in=
 the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader eng=
lish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to o=
bserve that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D g=
o together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subj=
ect identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling=
 seems to be the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should b=
e fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevan=
t event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within t=
he event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-obj=
ect can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the i=
ssuer of the event where the state change occurred.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present i=
n the top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be=
 present.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.=
example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://server.=
example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd=
4e7d30",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; "events": [</span><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://sp=
ecs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5E30EB">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.n=
et/logout" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://specs.open=
id.net/logout</span></a>": {</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is de=
fined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https=
://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a501=
9c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub"=
: "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#E63B7A">&nbsp; }</span><o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning w=
ithin the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event ca=
n be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event=
 and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested=
 object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profi=
ling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usual=
ly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for t=
he ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, i=
t might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscrib=
er has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how l=
ong it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp;
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no long=
er need to track the revocation state.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may a=
lso be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strict=
ly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we a=
void collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the orig=
inal issuer of a security assertion.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedbac=
k correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow t=
he groups thinking here.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 12:09:48 -0400
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References: <14E2EF51-7123-4E91-87DD-56AEA08202C1@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB1645C699D5475DA865258110F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E7BDEC4F-5F22-45E8-A18E-2B2DDDEEE0EA@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB16458A377399DFECBA108D17F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E3D7164D-943B-482B-A0DF-7F60B6BFECAB@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpKmZVWHwGUsLRvrZ5u_APx3Nj_z-p=DNsaH8gHJMM=LTw@mail.gmail.com> <SN1PR0301MB164547C185B3ECB3AD9BDDC1F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <3F0DD3E6-46CD-4AA5-8F06-F79140F5D4BE@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164529CA9F3E68306F2F2EB2F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <F87A9C7F-7AC7-463C-AC58-92E8FC187F30@oracle.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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I disagree with special-casing logout like this. The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 at the root of the event should be the issuer of the event itself, =
always. The event sub-construct might also have that field, or it might =
inherit the global field if another value doesn=E2=80=99t exist for the =
sub-object if you want to get fancy. But in neither case is it putting a =
value into the root of the object.

If you want to attach a full ID token, you should do that as a data =
member, in my opinion. You can do that either by using the JSON object =
payload as a sub-object or by doing it as the serialized compact form as =
a string (if for some reason you need to keep that signature as well). =
I=E2=80=99d prefer the former case in most instances since the issuer of =
the event should be authoritative for the event it=E2=80=99s describing.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the =
issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=20
>=20
> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously =
objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But =
that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with =
an event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems =
incredibly complex not to mention awkward.=20
>=20
> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token =
would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.=20
>=20
> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for =
example?
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is =
no different from any other claim that an event might place at the top =
level.
>> =20
>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily =
special-cased.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the =
applicability of the specification.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you =
provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  =
IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20=

>> =20
>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be =
best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This way =
different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, =
jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be =
provided without conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti =
and iss can be used for a revoked token without conflicting with the =
event jti.=20
>> =20
>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based =
on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>> =20
>> We can always change again.=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear =
at the top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will =
only occur at the top level if the particular event defines that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
>> =20
>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I =
doubt there are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  =
By definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to =
use them in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.
>> =20
>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single =
event per JWT.
>> =20
>>                                                                      =
-- Mike
>> =20
>> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the =
event level and not at the top level:
>> =20
>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other =
than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.
>> =20
>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>> =20
>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per =
message?
>> =20
>>=20
>> Marius
>> =20
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> I was referring to this in your email
>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>> =20
>> Is this different from the event uri?
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and =
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I =
think we then have a good path forward.
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure =
that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=
=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my =
statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D.  What I was trying to get at is was that if =
=E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/logout =
<http://specs.openid.net/logout>=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that =
it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information =
about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, =
hence the unintended confusion J.)
>> =20
>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse =
people with too many things.
>> =20
>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is =
your intention there.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does =
not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events =
data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly =
believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)
>> =20
>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and =
these things only:
>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim
>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that =
the JWT be signed by the issuer
>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe =
claims to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the =
event=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>> =20
>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are =
included with events they define and what their format and meanings are. =
 Then the ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it =
being natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>> =20
>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular =
claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing =
that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be =
included with an event is entirely event-specific.  The claims to be =
included with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of =
this specification.=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =20
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>> To: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft
>> =20
>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.
>> =20
>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01>
>> =20
>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level =
to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) =
of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token =
definition which is the authenticated user. =20
>> =20
>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in =
an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.  The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20
>> =20
>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:
>> =20
>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and =
not include the sub attribute. =20
>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user.=20
>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the =
event where the state change occurred.
>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>> =20
>> Here would be a new example logout:
>> {
>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com <https://server.example.com/>",
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>   "events": [
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
>>   ],
>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>": {
>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com <https://oidc.example.com/>",
>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>   }
>> }
>> =20
>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).
>> =20
>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.
>> =20
>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.
>> =20
>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.
>> =20
>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the =
events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.
>> =20
>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>__________________________=
_____________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_F92E3305-617B-41A6-8048-B77B4A2FA35D
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I disagree with special-casing logout like this. The =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D at the root of the event should be the issuer of =
the event itself, always. The event sub-construct might also have that =
field, or it might inherit the global field if another value doesn=E2=80=99=
t exist for the sub-object if you want to get fancy. But in neither case =
is it putting a value into the root of the object.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you want to attach a full ID token, =
you should do that as a data member, in my opinion. You can do that =
either by using the JSON object payload as a sub-object or by doing it =
as the serialized compact form as a string (if for some reason you need =
to keep that signature as well). I=E2=80=99d prefer the former case in =
most instances since the issuer of the event should be authoritative for =
the event it=E2=80=99s describing.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">How do you resolve conflicts =
on iss then? &nbsp;The top level has to be the issuer of the event as =
the issuer signs.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you =
previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define =
them. But that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at =
the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the =
extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention =
awkward.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">If we =
make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token would not =
be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Why not =
have a logout be an event with an id token attached for =
example?</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The simple rule is that if the particular =
event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, =
then it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that an =
event might place at the top level.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The complexity arises if =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We =
shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the =
specification.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 =
9:40 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think using sub at the top level leads =
to complexity. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or =
not by an individual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used =
the same way by all implementers.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we =
discussed that it would be best to move all event specifics to the event =
object area. This way different events can have different event =
addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely =
qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the issuer of =
the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token without =
conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I plan to post a new draft shortly that =
will give some examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect =
discussions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">We can always change again.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On=
 Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">No, I=E2=80=99m not =
saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; =
I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top =
level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used =
in that way for that event.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There are probably use =
cases for multiple events per message but I doubt there are use cases =
for multiple *<b class=3D"">unrelated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By =
definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use =
them in a compatible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">That being said, the predominant use case is =
likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius =
Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
7:15 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim =
can only show up at the event level and not at the top level:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt =
0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In =
particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =
=E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Do we have a compelling reason to support =
multiple events per message?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil =
Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I was referring to =
this in your email<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">"<span style=3D"font-size: 11.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Is this different from the event uri?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Aug 9, 2016, at =
12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on =
keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree =
with my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path =
forward.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =
=E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D&nbsp; The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be =
used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; What I was trying to get at is =
was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://specs.openid.net/logout" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D is used as =
an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT =
containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not =
using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: =
[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=
=99t want to confuse people with too many things.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But I think we agree on all of the =
below.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =
=E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing this, =
Phil.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my =
feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure =
as simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe =
that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I believe that the ID Events spec needs to =
include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be =
included and that the JWT be signed by the issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Include a statement along the lines of =
=E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event are to be =
defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It should be entirely up to applications to =
say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec will be as =
general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be used in =
essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As soon as we start putting restrictions on =
the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp; In =
particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =
=E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with any particular =
event are explicitly outside the scope of this =
specification.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil=
 Hunt<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Id-even=
t] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some =
discussions that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC =
working groups conference calls.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">These =
discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">See:<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span><=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top =
level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english =
sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token =
definition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe =
that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated =
subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the =
AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems =
to be the following:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly =
limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
&nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state change occurred.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be =
present.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the =
event itself -&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458668180,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"events": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""> <span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>": =
{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- =
This level is defined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": =
"<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token =
expiry&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; }</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning =
within the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the =
event can be different (the top-level) and represents the entity that =
signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are =
used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested =
object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the =
profiling specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event =
spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually translates =
into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID =
token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might =
be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber =
has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how =
long it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp; IOW=E2=80=A6af=
ter the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to =
track the revocation state.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at =
the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may also =
be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about =
the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback =
correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to =
follow the groups thinking here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
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serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
purple;" =
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0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
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class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
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class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Michael Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimized =
as a single purpose one.

Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer the =
same entity sending the logout message is always the one that created =
the id_token that it refers to.

Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify =
the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect =
point of view.

Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by =
different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues =
when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant =
you that.

It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events and =
id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be =
presented in the front channel.

To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash =
as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I =
admit that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub =
from the top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point =
that adoption may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.

I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many social =
login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is =
mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.
That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned =
with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with =
other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.

I think the two directions lead to different formats.  =20

The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats =
together is probably the worst option.

John B.


> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the =
issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=20
>=20
> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously =
objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But =
that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with =
an event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems =
incredibly complex not to mention awkward.=20
>=20
> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token =
would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.=20
>=20
> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for =
example?
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is =
no different from any other claim that an event might place at the top =
level.
>> =20
>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily =
special-cased.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the =
applicability of the specification.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you =
provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  =
IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20=

>> =20
>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be =
best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This way =
different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, =
jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be =
provided without conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti =
and iss can be used for a revoked token without conflicting with the =
event jti.=20
>> =20
>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based =
on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>> =20
>> We can always change again.=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear =
at the top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will =
only occur at the top level if the particular event defines that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
>> =20
>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I =
doubt there are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  =
By definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to =
use them in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.
>> =20
>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single =
event per JWT.
>> =20
>>                                                                      =
-- Mike
>> =20
>> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the =
event level and not at the top level:
>> =20
>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other =
than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.
>> =20
>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>> =20
>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per =
message?
>> =20
>>=20
>> Marius
>> =20
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> I was referring to this in your email
>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>> =20
>> Is this different from the event uri?
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and =
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I =
think we then have a good path forward.
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure =
that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=
=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my =
statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D.  What I was trying to get at is was that if =
=E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/logout =
<http://specs.openid.net/logout>=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that =
it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information =
about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, =
hence the unintended confusion J.)
>> =20
>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
>> =20
>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse =
people with too many things.
>> =20
>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is =
your intention there.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does =
not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events =
data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly =
believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)
>> =20
>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and =
these things only:
>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim
>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that =
the JWT be signed by the issuer
>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe =
claims to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the =
event=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>> =20
>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are =
included with events they define and what their format and meanings are. =
 Then the ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it =
being natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>> =20
>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular =
claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing =
that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be =
included with an event is entirely event-specific.  The claims to be =
included with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of =
this specification.=E2=80=9D
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =20
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>> To: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft
>> =20
>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.
>> =20
>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01>
>> =20
>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level =
to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) =
of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token =
definition which is the authenticated user. =20
>> =20
>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in =
an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.  The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20
>> =20
>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:
>> =20
>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and =
not include the sub attribute. =20
>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. =20
>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the =
event where the state change occurred.
>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>> =20
>> Here would be a new example logout:
>> {
>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com <https://server.example.com/>",
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>   "events": [
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
>>   ],
>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>": {
>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com <https://oidc.example.com/>",
>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>   }
>> }
>> =20
>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).
>> =20
>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.
>> =20
>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.
>> =20
>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.
>> =20
>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the =
events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.
>> =20
>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>__________________________=
_____________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as =
optimized as a single purpose one.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really =
have a conflict around issuer the same entity sending the logout message =
is always the one that created the id_token that it refers to.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Using the same format as =
id_token with the same semantics to identify the thing to be terminated =
makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of view.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oter messages that have =
different notions of subject and are issued by different parties than =
the one that controls the subject cause issues when you try and fit them =
into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you that.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It was mentioned that we =
need to differentiate between these events and id_tokens. &nbsp;Mostly =
we need to do that in cases where the token might be presented in the =
front channel.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash =
or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce =
confusion. &nbsp; Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, =
&nbsp;and the removal of sub from the top level would remove any =
concern. &nbsp;However Mike has a point that adoption may be hurt if we =
change the semantics too much.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single =
logout being used by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to =
maintain server side state. &nbsp; It is mostly an enterprise and large =
site sort of feature.</div><div class=3D"">That may or may not impact on =
if it is better to be simple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token =
or more general purpose to fit with other enterprise to SaaS features =
like SCIM events.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think the two directions lead to different formats. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The=
 compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats =
together is probably the worst option.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, =
Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">How do you resolve conflicts =
on iss then? &nbsp;The top level has to be the issuer of the event as =
the issuer signs.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you =
previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define =
them. But that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at =
the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the =
extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention =
awkward.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">If we =
make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token would not =
be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Why not =
have a logout be an event with an id token attached for =
example?</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The simple rule is that if the particular =
event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, =
then it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that an =
event might place at the top level.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The complexity arises if =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We =
shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the =
specification.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 =
9:40 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think using sub at the top level leads =
to complexity. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or =
not by an individual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used =
the same way by all implementers.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we =
discussed that it would be best to move all event specifics to the event =
object area. This way different events can have different event =
addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely =
qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the issuer of =
the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token without =
conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I plan to post a new draft shortly that =
will give some examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect =
discussions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">We can always change again.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On=
 Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">No, I=E2=80=99m not =
saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; =
I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top =
level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used =
in that way for that event.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There are probably use =
cases for multiple events per message but I doubt there are use cases =
for multiple *<b class=3D"">unrelated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By =
definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use =
them in a compatible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">That being said, the predominant use case is =
likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius =
Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
7:15 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim =
can only show up at the event level and not at the top level:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt =
0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In =
particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =
=E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Do we have a compelling reason to support =
multiple events per message?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil =
Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I was referring to =
this in your email<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">"<span style=3D"font-size: 11.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Is this different from the event uri?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Aug 9, 2016, at =
12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on =
keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree =
with my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path =
forward.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =
=E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D&nbsp; The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be =
used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; What I was trying to get at is =
was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://specs.openid.net/logout" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D is used as =
an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT =
containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not =
using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: =
[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=
=99t want to confuse people with too many things.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But I think we agree on all of the =
below.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =
=E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing this, =
Phil.&nbsp; Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my =
feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure =
as simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe =
that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I believe that the ID Events spec needs to =
include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be =
included and that the JWT be signed by the issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Include a statement along the lines of =
=E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event are to be =
defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It should be entirely up to applications to =
say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec will be as =
general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be used in =
essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As soon as we start putting restrictions on =
the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp; In =
particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =
=E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with any particular =
event are explicitly outside the scope of this =
specification.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil=
 Hunt<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Id-even=
t] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some =
discussions that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC =
working groups conference calls.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">These =
discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">See:<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span><=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top =
level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english =
sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token =
definition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe =
that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated =
subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the =
AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems =
to be the following:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly =
limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
&nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state change occurred.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* =
&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be =
present.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the =
event itself -&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458668180,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"events": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""> <span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>": =
{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- =
This level is defined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": =
"<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token =
expiry&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; }</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning =
within the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the =
event can be different (the top-level) and represents the entity that =
signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are =
used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested =
object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the =
profiling specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event =
spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually translates =
into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID =
token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might =
be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber =
has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how =
long it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp; IOW=E2=80=A6af=
ter the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to =
track the revocation state.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at =
the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may also =
be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about =
the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback =
correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to =
follow the groups thinking here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span></div>=
</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:32:42 +0000
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN1PR0301MB16459867074BFA03B5C401E4F51E0SN1PR0301MB1645_"
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/-VLEdBfLQsdKpRygASatNJomEms>
Cc: "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Mike,=20

Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC =
becomes a special case which really kills the point of this work. It =
also makes the specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just =
me, but a complex spec generally implies complex implementation too.

If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec =
format would have to look like:
{
  "iss": "https://event.example.com <https://event.example.com/>",
  "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
  "iat": 1458668180,
  "exp": 1458668580,
  "events": [
    "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
  ],
  "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
}

Given that events are signed (or should be), I will object strongly =
within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the =
same or that OIDF adopt a different format. Yes having iss be the same =
is a nice security convenience, but it imposes the architecture =
restriction that it be the same server.  At scale, delivery of events =
may become a problem for large scale providers if they are also =
delivering tokens to relying parties. The restriction isn=E2=80=99t =
really justified given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the =
whole point of using JWT in the first place.

Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout =
event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached =
(though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout =
spec should only convey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that =
you log out all devices for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO =
within this browser only!  One can argue that clearing all =
devices/sessions is a different event entirely. It is an account reset =
or lock-out action.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s =
message that you also replied to, that contained a logout claims =
example.  I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-case the Connect Logout =
message in any way.  The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is the event issuer.  The =
other claims in the message are those defined by the event to be =
included, just like those for any other event.  Yes, the logout message =
doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subject, an ID Token =
as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because those things =
aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.
> =20
> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define =
the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to use an event name as a claim =
(when needed), and say that the event JWT must be signed by the issuer, =
and stop there.  Trying to micro-manage claims usage within an event =
will only result in the ID Events spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99=
d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT claims usage, JWT would likely not =
have been the success that it is.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org; =
Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; =
openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
> =20
> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as =
optimized as a single purpose one.
> =20
> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer =
the same entity sending the logout message is always the one that =
created the id_token that it refers to.
> =20
> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify =
the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect =
point of view.
> =20
> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by =
different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues =
when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant =
you that.
> =20
> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events =
and id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might =
be presented in the front channel.
> =20
> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash =
as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I =
admit that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub =
from the top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point =
that adoption may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many =
social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It =
is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.
> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned =
with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with =
other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
> =20
> I think the two directions lead to different formats.  =20
> =20
> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats =
together is probably the worst option.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> =20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the =
issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=20
> =20
> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously =
objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But =
that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with =
an event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems =
incredibly complex not to mention awkward.=20
> =20
> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token =
would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.=20
> =20
> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for =
example?
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is =
no different from any other claim that an event might place at the top =
level.
> =20
> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily =
special-cased.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the =
applicability of the specification.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
> =20
> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you =
provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  =
IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20=

> =20
> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best =
to move all event specifics to the event object area. This way different =
events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). =
When iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without =
conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be =
used for a revoked token without conflicting with the event jti.=20
> =20
> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based =
on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
> =20
> We can always change again.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at =
the top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only =
occur at the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
> =20
> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I =
doubt there are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  =
By definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to =
use them in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.
> =20
> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single =
event per JWT.
> =20
>                                                                      =
-- Mike
> =20
> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
> =20
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the =
event level and not at the top level:
> =20
> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other =
than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.
> =20
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
> =20
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> I was referring to this in your email
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
> =20
> =20
> Is this different from the event uri?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and =
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I =
think we then have a good path forward.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure =
that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=
=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my =
statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D.  What I was trying to get at is was that if =
=E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/logout =
<http://specs.openid.net/logout>=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that =
it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information =
about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, =
hence the unintended confusion J.)
> =20
>                                                        Thanks again,
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event =
token draft
> =20
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people =
with too many things.
> =20
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is =
your intention there.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does =
not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events =
data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly =
believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and =
general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful =
example and do the same here.)
> =20
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and =
these things only:
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that =
the JWT be signed by the issuer
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe =
claims to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the =
event=E2=80=9D
> =20
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
> =20
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are =
included with events they define and what their format and meanings are. =
 Then the ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it =
being natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
> =20
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular =
claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less =
general-purpose and less natural to use.  In particular, the only thing =
that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =
=E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be =
included with an event is entirely event-specific.  The claims to be =
included with any particular event are explicitly outside the scope of =
this specification.=E2=80=9D
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft
> =20
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been =
happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference =
calls.
> =20
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =
=E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D=
 attributes.=20
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01>
> =20
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of =
the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition =
which is the authenticated user. =20
> =20
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in =
an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go =
together.  The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject =
identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or =
OP) which is issuing the event. =20
> =20
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the =
following:
> =20
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and =
not include the sub attribute. =20
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification =
may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s =
sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also =
include the issuer of the user. =20
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the =
event where the state change occurred.
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level =
structure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
> =20
> Here would be a new example logout:
> {
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com <https://server.example.com/>",
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>   "events": [
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout =
<https://specs.openid.net/logout>"
>   ],
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout <https://specs.openid.net/logout>": =
{
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com <https://oidc.example.com/>",
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>   }
> }
> =20
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can =
have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the =
context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be =
different (the top-level) and represents the entity that signs the event =
(if it is signed).
> =20
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to =
validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling =
specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, =
in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. =
Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is =
included in the Logout object.
> =20
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to =
include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet =
received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it =
needs to keep the revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the =
ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the =
revocation state.
> =20
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top =
level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different =
then the original audience of the ID Token.
> =20
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the =
events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.
> =20
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. =
Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups =
thinking here.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_5ABB8280-9425-43FD-B243-615D581BE6C8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Mike,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it. =
&nbsp;Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the =
point of this work. It also makes the specification much much more =
complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies =
complex implementation too.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the =
OIDC spec format would have to look like:</div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://event.example.com" style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://event.example.com</a>",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 <font color=3D"#b51a00" class=3D"">"sub": =E2=80=9C<a =
href=3D"https://token.example.com/248289761001" =
class=3D"">https://token.example.com/248289761001</a>",</font><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 "iat": 1458668180,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "events": [<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</a>"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">}</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">Given that =
events are signed (or should be), <u class=3D"">I will object strongly =
within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the =
same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having iss be the =
same is a nice security convenience, but it imposes the architecture =
restriction that it be the same server. &nbsp;At scale, delivery of =
events may become a problem for large scale providers if they are also =
delivering tokens to relying parties. The restriction isn=E2=80=99t =
really justified given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the =
whole point of using JWT in the first place.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems =
elegant/trivial that a logout event simply has logout at the top level =
and an ID Token attached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded =
claims). &nbsp;IMO, the OIDC logout spec should only convey the ID Token =
JTI. &nbsp;It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a =
user. &nbsp;To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only! =
&nbsp;One can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different =
event entirely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">See my previous message, John, which was a =
reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contained =
a logout claims example.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-case =
the Connect Logout message in any way.&nbsp; The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
is the event issuer.&nbsp; The other claims in the message are those =
defined by the event to be included, just like those for any other =
event.&nbsp; Yes, the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second =
issuer, a second subject, an ID Token as a claim, or anything else =
complicated like that, because those things aren=E2=80=99t needed for =
the logout use case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As I=E2=80=99d written =
previously, the ID Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that =
the event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.&nbsp; Trying =
to micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result in the ID =
Events spec being harder to use.&nbsp; If we=E2=80=99d tried to =
similarly micro-manage JWT claims usage, JWT would likely not have been =
the success that it is.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>John Bradley [<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 =
12:22 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>; =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" =
class=3D"">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a> Ab &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net" =
class=3D"">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as =
optimized as a single purpose one.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict =
around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the =
one that created the id_token that it refers to.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Using the same format as id_token with =
the same semantics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense =
from a purely openID Connect point of view.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Oter messages that have different notions =
of subject and are issued by different parties than the one that =
controls the subject cause issues when you try and fit them into the =
same format as an ID_Token, I grant you that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It was mentioned that we need to =
differentiate between these events and id_tokens. &nbsp;Mostly we need =
to do that in cases where the token might be presented in the front =
channel.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and =
c_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce =
confusion. &nbsp; Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, =
&nbsp;and the removal of sub from the top level would remove any =
concern. &nbsp;However Mike has a point that adoption may be hurt if we =
change the semantics too much.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being =
used by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server =
side state. &nbsp; It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of =
feature.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">That may or may not impact on if it is =
better to be simple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more =
general purpose to fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM =
events.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I think the two directions lead to different formats. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and =
bodging the formats together is probably the worst option.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then? &nbsp;The top level =
has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If one spec can use it =
all must be able to. I believe you previously objected to that saying =
sub must be as how id tokens define them. But that isnt unique and =
requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at =
the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex =
not to mention awkward.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id =
token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in =
format.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Why not have a logout be =
an event with an id token attached for example?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; font-variant-caps: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The simple rule is that if the particular =
event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, =
then it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that an =
event might place at the top level.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The complexity arises if =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We =
shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the =
specification.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil Hunt (IDM) [<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 =
9:40 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think using sub at the top level leads =
to complexity. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or =
not by an individual spec? &nbsp;IMO. Top level should always be used =
the same way by all implementers.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we =
discussed that it would be best to move all event specifics to the event =
object area. This way different events can have different event =
addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss is needed to uniquely =
qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the issuer of =
the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token without =
conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I plan to post a new draft shortly that =
will give some examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect =
discussions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">We can always change again.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">No, =
I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the =
top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only =
occur at the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is used in that way for that event.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There are probably use =
cases for multiple events per message but I doubt there are use cases =
for multiple *<b class=3D"">unrelated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By =
definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use =
them in a compatible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a =
problem.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">That being said, the predominant use case is =
likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu [<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 =
7:15 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing =
recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Mike, are you =
suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event level and not =
at the top level:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about =
the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims =
other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether =
the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is =
entirely event-specific.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A top level sub and multiple events are =
incompatible IMO.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Do =
we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Marius<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil =
Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:=
 none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I was referring to this in your email<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">"<span style=3D"font-size: 11.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a top-level =
claim=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Is =
this different from the event uri?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and =
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.&nbsp; I =
think we then have a good path forward.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =
=E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D&nbsp; The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be =
used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; What I was trying to get at is =
was that if =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://specs.openid.net/logout" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D is used as =
an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the JWT =
containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not =
using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><span class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: =
[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token =
draft</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=
=99t want to confuse people with too many things.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But =
I think we agree on all of the below.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. =
What is your intention there.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; =
Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at =
the essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as simple and =
general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT is the =
success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as =
possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same =
here.)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I believe that the ID Events spec needs to =
include these things, and these things only:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Define that an event name can be used as a =
top-level claim</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: 7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be =
included and that the JWT be signed by the issuer</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin-left: =
0.5in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; =
color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
7pt; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Include a statement along the lines of =
=E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any particular event are to be =
defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It should be entirely up to applications to =
say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec will be as =
general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be used in =
essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">As soon as we start putting restrictions on =
the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp; In =
particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =
=E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =
=E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely =
event-specific.&nbsp; The claims to be included with any particular =
event are explicitly outside the scope of this =
specification.=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Phil=
 Hunt<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Id-even=
t] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I thought I would update the list on some discussions that =
have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups =
conference calls.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">These discussions have been about the core spec and the role =
of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=
=9D attributes.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">See:<span =
class=3D"m-6534435573639673786apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span><=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top =
level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english =
sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token =
definition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Taken in the narrower definition, it is =
important to observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context =
for the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is =
that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems =
to be the following:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level =
attributes should be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, =
the relevant event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the =
top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the =
user. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
shall mean the issuer of the event where the state change occurred.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the =
top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be =
present.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Here would be a new example logout:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the =
event itself -&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">"iss": "<a href=3D"https://server.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": =
"s6BhdRkqt3",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458668180,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"exp": 1458668580,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"events": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(94, 48, 235);" class=3D"">&nbsp; ],</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""> <span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://specs.openid.net/logout" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://specs.openid.net/logout</span></a>": =
{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- =
This level is defined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": =
"<a href=3D"https://oidc.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token =
expiry&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(230, 59, 122);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; }</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In the above example note that the =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or =
jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP =
provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) =
and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The top-level attributes identify an =
individual event and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; =
Where as the nested object contains all of the data about the event and =
is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout =
Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually =
translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for =
the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=
=80=9D, it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case =
the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the =
subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocation information =
for.&nbsp; IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber =
would no longer need to track the revocation state.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">It is also good to observe that the =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the =
event.&nbsp; This may also be different then the original audience of =
the ID Token.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about =
the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid =
collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the =
original issuer of a security assertion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99=
s feedback correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the =
draft to follow the groups thinking here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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From: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:09:54 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?

On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

> You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a =
breaking change for most
> implementations, right?  This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!
>
>
>
> The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you=E2=80=99re thinkin=
g about
> the purpose of the ID Events spec differently than me is this: =E2=80=9Cs=
o that
> all event specs can use it=E2=80=9D.  The purpose of the logout event **i=
sn=E2=80=99t**
> for all event specs to use it.  It=E2=80=99s for the logout use case to u=
se it.
> There=E2=80=99s no expectation that events intended for one use case will=
 even be
> comprehensible in other use cases because they won=E2=80=99t understand t=
he
> contents of the event.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t drive any of the design by t=
rying to
> achieve that unachievable goal, since events will **always** contain
> information that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.
>
>
>
> You=E2=80=99re making complexity arguments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also p=
roposing more
> complex rules than I am (at least as I see it).  Trying to restrict the u=
se
> of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claims) is unneeded complexity.
>
>
>
> I understand that you see things differently.  I hope you=E2=80=99ll none=
theless
> think about my argument that having fewer rules about claims usage in
> events will make them simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this
> simple, which is why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.  I=
f it=E2=80=99s
> simple, it will likely get widely used.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the discussion for now because my wife i=
s about
> to get out of surgery.  I hope you have a good day.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net
> Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D becomes a
> URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC becomes a specia=
l
> case which really kills the point of this work. It also makes the
> specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex
> spec generally implies complex implementation too.
>
>
>
> If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec
> format would have to look like:
>
> {
>
>   "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
>
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>
>   "events": [
>
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>
>   ],
>
>   "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>
> }
>
>
>
> Given that events are signed (or should be), *I will object strongly
> within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the sa=
me
> or that OIDF adopt a different format*. Yes having iss be the same is a
> nice security convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction th=
at
> it be the same server.  At scale, delivery of events may become a problem
> for large scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying
> parties. The restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified given the crypto
> alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using JWT in the first=
 place.
>
>
>
> Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout even=
t simply
> has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached (though it might
> convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec should only
> convey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log out all
> devices for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO within this browse=
r
> only!  One can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different
> event entirely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s messag=
e that
> you also replied to, that contained a logout claims example.  I=E2=80=99m=
 not
> proposing to special-case the Connect Logout message in any way.  The =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
> is the event issuer.  The other claims in the message are those defined b=
y
> the event to be included, just like those for any other event.  Yes, the
> logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subject,=
 an ID
> Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because those
> things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.
>
>
>
> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
> claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that th=
e
> event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.  Trying to
> micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Even=
ts
> spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manag=
e JWT
> claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success that it is.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
> *To:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius
> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab <
> openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
>
>
> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimized a=
s
> a single purpose one.
>
>
>
> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer the s=
ame
> entity sending the logout message is always the one that created the
> id_token that it refers to.
>
>
>
> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify the
> thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of
> view.
>
>
>
> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by
> different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues whe=
n
> you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you tha=
t.
>
>
>
> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events and
> id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be
> presented in the front channel.
>
>
>
> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash as
> well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I adm=
it
> that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub from t=
he
> top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point that adopti=
on
> may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many social l=
ogin RP,
> it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is mostly an
> enterprise and large site sort of feature.
>
> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned
> with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with other
> enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
>
>
>
> I think the two directions lead to different formats.
>
>
>
> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats
> together is probably the worst option.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the
> issuer of the event as the issuer signs.
>
>
>
> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously
> objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But tha=
t
> isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an
> event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems
> incredibly complex not to mention awkward.
>
>
>
> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token would
> not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in format.
>
>
>
> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for example?
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D claim
> to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different from any other
> claim that an event might place at the top level.
>
>
>
> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-c=
ased.  We
> shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the spe=
cification.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
>
>
> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you provid=
e
> a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. Top
> level should always be used the same way by all implementers.
>
>
>
> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best to
> move all event specifics to the event object area. This way different
> events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). Wh=
en
> iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without
> conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be us=
ed
> for a revoked token without conflicting with the event jti.
>
>
>
> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on
> feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>
>
>
> We can always change again.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at th=
e top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying
> that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the partic=
ular event defines
> that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
>
>
>
> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt
> there are use cases for multiple **unrelated** events per message.  By
> definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use th=
em
> in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
>
>
>
> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event
> per JWT.
>
>
>
>                                                                      --
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
>
>
> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event
> level and not at the top level:
>
>
>
> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=
=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether
> the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entire=
ly event-specific.
>
>
>
> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>
>
>
> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
>
>
>
>
> Marius
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> I was referring to this in your email
>
> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
>
>
> Is this different from the event uri?
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and genera=
l-purpose
> as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then have a
> good path forward.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that =
we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What
> is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=
=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in
> my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-leve=
l claim=E2=80=9D.
> What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.n=
et/logout=E2=80=9D
> is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the
> JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using=
 the
> correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>
>
>
>                                                        Thanks again,
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
> token draft
>
>
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wi=
th too many
> things.
>
>
>
> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your =
intention there.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not
> include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data
> structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe
> that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and
> general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful example
> and do the same here.)
>
>
>
> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and thes=
e
> things only:
>
> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>
> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
>
> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the =
JWT be signed by the
> issuer
>
> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims t=
o be included
> with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>
>
>
> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included
> with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the
> ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being
> natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>
>
>
> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims
> by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose a=
nd less
> natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say
> about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cla=
ims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99
> and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to =
be included with an event is
> entirely event-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular
> event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
> *To:* id-event@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token
> draft
>
>
>
> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been
> happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference
> calls.
>
>
>
> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of
> =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=
=9D attributes.
>
> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>
>
>
> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the
> subject (in the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be
> constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated
> user.
>
>
>
> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an I=
D
> Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The =
issuer provides the context for
> the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it
> might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event.
>
>
>
> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the
> following:
>
>
>
> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not
> include the sub attribute.
>
> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-=
object and not in the
> top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the use=
r.
>
>
> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event =
where the state
> change occurred.
>
> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure=
.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
> must also be present.
>
>
>
> Here would be a new example logout:
>
> {
>
>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>
>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>
>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458668180,
>
>   "exp": 1458668580,
>
>   "events": [
>
>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>
>   ],
>
>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>
>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>
>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>
>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>
>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>
>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can hav=
e its own iss and
> subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP
> provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) and
> represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>
>
>
> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to
> validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains al=
l
> of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification
> (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID,
> logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=
=9Cjti=E2=80=9D
> for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>
>
>
> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to inc=
lude the expiry
> of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token.
> This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocati=
on
> information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subs=
criber
> would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>
>
>
> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top leve=
l describes the
> subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the original
> audience of the ID Token.
>
>
>
> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events
> own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions i=
n
> definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a
> security assertion.
>
>
>
> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets=
 continue to
> discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking here.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>

--001a114112be5d40150539cfac1d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?=
</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 1=
1:02 AM, &quot;Mike Jones&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a breaking change for most implementation=
s, right?=C2=A0 This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The thing you wrote below that makes =
me think that you=E2=80=99re thinking about the purpose of the ID Events sp=
ec differently than me is this: =E2=80=9C</span>so that all event
 specs can use it<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The purpose of the logout =
event *<b>isn=E2=80=99t</b>* for all event specs to use it.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=
=99s for the logout use case to use it.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s no expectatio=
n that events intended
 for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because th=
ey won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=
=80=99t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal=
, since events will *<b>always</b>* contain information
 that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re making complexity argu=
ments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also proposing more complex rules than I am (=
at least as I see it).=C2=A0 Trying to restrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D (or
 any other claims) is unneeded complexity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I understand that you see things diff=
erently.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2=80=99ll nonetheless think about my argument th=
at having fewer rules about claims usage in events will make
 them simpler.=C2=A0 I passionately care about keeping this simple, which i=
s why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.=C2=A0 If it=E2=80=
=99s simple, it will likely get widely used.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the =
discussion for now because my wife is about to get out of surgery.=C2=A0 I =
hope you have a good day.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6902039538064361870__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt [mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">ve7jtb@ve7=
jtb.com</a>&gt;; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.<wbr>net Ab &lt;openid-specs-=
ab@lists.openid.<wbr>net&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event=
@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com=
">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event t=
oken draft<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works=
 if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.=
=C2=A0 Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the point =
of this work. It also makes the specification much much
 more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies co=
mplex implementation too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean th=
at the OIDC spec format would have to look like:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://event.example.com</span></a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd19=
3bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#b51a00">&quot;sub&quot;=
: =E2=80=9C<a>https://token.example.com/<wbr>248289761001</a>&quot;,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;sid&quot;: &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f4=
2-<wbr>65a12843ea02&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that events are signed (or should be), <u>I wi=
ll object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issu=
er MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having i=
ss be the same is a nice security
 convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the sa=
me server.=C2=A0 At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for larg=
e scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. Th=
e restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified
 given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using =
JWT in the first place.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivi=
al that a logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token a=
ttached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).=C2=A0 IMO, the O=
IDC logout spec should only convey the ID Token
 JTI.=C2=A0 It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a user.=
=C2=A0 To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!=C2=A0 On=
e can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirel=
y. It is an account reset or lock-out action.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>www.independentid.com=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a>Micha=
el.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See my previous message, John, which =
was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contai=
ned a logout claims example.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-cas=
e
 the Connect Logout message in any way.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is =
the event issuer.=C2=A0 The other claims in the message are those defined b=
y the event to be included, just like those for any other event.=C2=A0 Yes,=
 the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subje=
ct,
 an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because th=
ose things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As I=E2=80=99d written previously, th=
e ID Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to u=
se an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.=C2=A0 Trying to micro-manage=
 claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Events spec being =
harder to use.=C2=A0 If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT cl=
aims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success
 that it is.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
 Bradley [<a>mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<=
/a>&gt;;
<a>id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a>mscurtescu@google.com</a>=
&gt;;
<a>openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.<wbr>net</a> Ab &lt;<a>openid-specs-ab@list=
s.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will =
not be as optimized as a single purpose one.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflic=
t around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the on=
e that created the id_token that it refers to.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Using the same format as id_token with the same sema=
ntics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely open=
ID Connect point of view.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oter messages that have different notions of subject=
 and are issued by different parties than the one that controls the subject=
 cause issues when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token=
, I grant you that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It was mentioned that we need to differentiate betwe=
en these events and id_tokens.=C2=A0 Mostly we need to do that in cases whe=
re the token might be presented in the front channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and=
 c_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce co=
nfusion. =C2=A0 Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, =C2=
=A0and the removal of sub from the top level
 would remove any concern.=C2=A0 However Mike has a point that adoption may=
 be hurt if we change the semantics too much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being =
used by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side s=
tate. =C2=A0 It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That may or may not impact on if it is better to be =
simple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose =
to fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the two directions lead to different formats=
. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bod=
ging the formats together is probably the worst option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a=
><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?=C2=A0 Th=
e top level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I beli=
eve you previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens def=
ine them. But that isnt unique and requires iss.
 Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub=
 issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention awkw=
ard.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass =
iss from id token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the =
change in format.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Why not have a logout be an event with an id token=
 attached for example?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;=
word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the partic=
ular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level=
, then it is.=C2=A0 This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=80=99t do tha=
t, because it limits the applicability of the specification.</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt (IDM) [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</s=
pan></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">id-<wbr>event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexi=
ty. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an indiv=
idual spec?=C2=A0 IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all =
implementers.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed tha=
t it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. Th=
is way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, ur=
i, jit/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the is=
suer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token wi=
thout conflicting with the event jti.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give so=
me examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m saying=
 that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particu=
lar event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for mult=
iple events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>un=
related</b>* events per message.=C2=A0 By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compa=
tible way.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use =
case is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Mari=
us
 Scurtescu [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</s=
pan></a>]<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><a><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only s=
how up at the event level and not at the top level:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should s=
ay about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cl=
aims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether=
 the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirel=
y event-specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible=
 IMO.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple e=
vents per message?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can b=
e used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agre=
e on keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agre=
e with my write-up.=C2=A0 I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by=
 =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D=C2=A0
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =
=E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=
=9D.=C2=A0 What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">http://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the =
JWT containing information about the event.=C2=A0 (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not us=
ing the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span>=C2=A0</sp=
an></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#0020=
60">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:#002060">.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank=
s again,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6902039538064361870_m_-653443557363967=
3786__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a><span></span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></=
a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want=
 to confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.=C2=A0 =
Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the=
 essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. =C2=A0(I strongly believe that JWT=
 is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as =
possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec nee=
ds to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the i=
ssuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any=
 particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to applicati=
ons to say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.=C2=A0 Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be=
 used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restricti=
ons on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.=C2=A0
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=
=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=
=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.=C2=
=A0 The claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=
=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-e=
vent
 [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</sp=
an></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Phil
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions=
 on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussion=
s that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working grou=
ps conference calls.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and =
the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cexten=
sion=E2=80=9D attributes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-<wbr>01</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used i=
n the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader e=
nglish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Toke=
n definition which is the authenticated user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to=
 observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D go together.=C2=A0 The issuer provides the context for the authenticate=
d subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feelin=
g seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0The Event Token top level attributes should =
be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0For events that are about a user, the releva=
nt event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within=
 the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-=
object can also include the issuer of the user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the=
 issuer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present =
in the top level structure.=C2=A0 Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also =
be present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://server.example.com</span></a>&quot;,</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3=
&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3=
cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>&quot;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0&quot;<a><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>&quot;: {</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- This level is d=
efined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quo=
t;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cjti&quot;: &=
quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=
=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meani=
ng within the context of an OpenID OP provider.=C2=A0 The issuer of the eve=
nt can be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual even=
t and are used to validate the event (signing etc).=C2=A0 Where as the nest=
ed object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the pr=
ofiling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).=C2=A0 In this case, in OpenID, logging out usua=
lly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D fo=
r the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.=C2=A0 Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D,=
 it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subsc=
riber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know =
how long it needs to keep the revocation information for.=C2=A0
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no lon=
ger need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.=C2=A0 This m=
ay also be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes stric=
tly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we=
 avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the o=
riginal issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedba=
ck correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follo=
w the groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
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To: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Sarah,

Good question!

Your use case is really the app initiated logout or logout within the contex=
t of a single application.=20

If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be saying log user out of a=
ll sso sites for that OP.=20

If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be saying the user w=
as logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or may not take=
 action depending on its policy.=20

We need to explore the use case.=20

Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token with=
out forming a wg.=20
=20
Phil

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>> You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a b=
reaking change for most implementations, right?  This is hardly a way to enc=
ourage adoption!
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you=E2=80=99re thinkin=
g about the purpose of the ID Events spec differently than me is this: =E2=80=
=9Cso that all event specs can use it=E2=80=9D.  The purpose of the logout e=
vent *isn=E2=80=99t* for all event specs to use it.  It=E2=80=99s for the lo=
gout use case to use it.  There=E2=80=99s no expectation that events intende=
d for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because th=
ey won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t=
 drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal, since e=
vents will *always* contain information that=E2=80=99s specific to their use=
 case.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> You=E2=80=99re making complexity arguments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also p=
roposing more complex rules than I am (at least as I see it).  Trying to res=
trict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claims) is unneeded com=
plexity.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I understand that you see things differently.  I hope you=E2=80=99ll none=
theless think about my argument that having fewer rules about claims usage i=
n events will make them simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this sim=
ple, which is why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.  If it=E2=
=80=99s simple, it will likely get widely used.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the discussion for now because my wife i=
s about to get out of surgery.  I hope you have a good day.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab=
 <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <ms=
curtescu@google.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Mike,=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC becom=
es a special case which really kills the point of this work. It also makes t=
he specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex s=
pec generally implies complex implementation too.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec form=
at would have to look like:
>>=20
>> {
>>=20
>>   "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>>=20
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>=20
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>=20
>>   "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
>>=20
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>=20
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>=20
>>   "events": [
>>=20
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>=20
>>   ],
>>=20
>>   "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>=20
>> }
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Given that events are signed (or should be), I will object strongly withi=
n the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the same or th=
at OIDF adopt a different format. Yes having iss be the same is a nice secur=
ity convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the s=
ame server.  At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for large sca=
le providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. The rest=
riction isn=E2=80=99t really justified given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94=
 which was the whole point of using JWT in the first place.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout even=
t simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached (though it mig=
ht convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec should only c=
onvey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log out all devices=
 for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!  O=
ne can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirel=
y. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> @independentid
>>=20
>> www.independentid.com
>>=20
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s messag=
e that you also replied to, that contained a logout claims example.  I=E2=80=
=99m not proposing to special-case the Connect Logout message in any way.  T=
he =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is the event issuer.  The other claims in the messa=
ge are those defined by the event to be included, just like those for any ot=
her event.  Yes, the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer,=
 a second subject, an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like=
 that, because those things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define the =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when neede=
d), and say that the event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.=
  Trying to micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result in th=
e ID Events spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly mi=
cro-manage JWT claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success that=
 it is.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]=20
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
>> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius S=
curtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab <openi=
d-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimized a=
s a single purpose one.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer the s=
ame entity sending the logout message is always the one that created the id_=
token that it refers to.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify the=
 thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of vi=
ew.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by di=
fferent parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues when you=
 try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you that.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events and i=
d_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be prese=
nted in the front channel.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash as=
 well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I admit=
 that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub from the=
 top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point that adoption=
 may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many social l=
ogin RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is mostly a=
n enterprise and large site sort of feature.
>>=20
>> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned wi=
th connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with other ente=
rprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I think the two directions lead to different formats.  =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats toge=
ther is probably the worst option.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> John B.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the is=
suer of the event as the issuer signs.=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously obje=
cted to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But that isnt u=
nique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an event issue=
r at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly comple=
x not to mention awkward.=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token would=
 not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in format.=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for example?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different f=
rom any other claim that an event might place at the top level.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-c=
ased.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of t=
he specification.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you provid=
e a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. Top l=
evel should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best to=
 move all event specifics to the event object area. This way different event=
s can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When iss i=
s needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting w=
ith the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked=
 token without conflicting with the event jti.=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on f=
eedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> We can always change again.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at th=
e top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur a=
t the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D i=
s used in that way for that event.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt t=
here are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  By definiti=
on, related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a com=
patible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event p=
er JWT.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                                      -- M=
ike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event l=
evel and not at the top level:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Marius
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I was referring to this in your email
>>=20
>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Is this different from the event uri?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> @independentid
>>=20
>> www.independentid.com
>>=20
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and genera=
l-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we then h=
ave a good path forward.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that w=
e need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D   Th=
e only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=80=
=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  Wha=
t I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/log=
out=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim n=
ame in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m n=
ot using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>=20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people wi=
th too many things.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your i=
ntention there.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> @independentid
>>=20
>> www.independentid.com
>>=20
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does not=
 include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data st=
ructure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe that=
 JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose a=
s possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same her=
e.)
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and thes=
e things only:
>>=20
>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>>=20
>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
>>=20
>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the J=
WT be signed by the issuer
>>=20
>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims t=
o be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=
=9D
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included w=
ith events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the ID E=
vents spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for=
 it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims b=
y events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose and l=
ess natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say a=
bout the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims o=
ther than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=
=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-s=
pecific.  The claims to be included with any  particular event are explicitl=
y outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hunt
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>> To: id-event@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draf=
t
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been happ=
ening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=9C=
top-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attribut=
es.=20
>>=20
>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =E2=
=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of the ev=
ent, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is th=
e authenticated user. =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an I=
D Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  The i=
ssuer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The pro=
blem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing th=
e event. =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the fol=
lowing:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not i=
nclude the sub attribute. =20
>>=20
>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification may=
 include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-ob=
ject and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the i=
ssuer of the user. =20
>>=20
>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event w=
here the state change occurred.
>>=20
>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structure=
.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Here would be a new example logout:
>>=20
>> {
>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>   "events": [
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>   ],
>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>   }
>> }
>> =20
>>=20
>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can hav=
e its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context o=
f an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-=
level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to val=
idate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of t=
he data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a=
 possible  OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out u=
sually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D f=
or the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to inc=
lude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received a=
n ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the=
 revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired,=
 the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top leve=
l describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then th=
e original audience of the ID Token.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events o=
wn validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in de=
finitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a secu=
rity assertion.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Lets=
 continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking h=
ere.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> @independentid
>>=20
>> www.independentid.com
>>=20
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

--Apple-Mail-C1E1866B-6990-49BE-AC6F-85102EA8975C
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Sarah,</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Good question!</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Your use case i=
s really the app initiated logout or logout within the context of a single a=
pplication.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"A=
ppleMailSignature">If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be sayi=
ng log user out of all sso sites for that OP.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMai=
lSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">If instead, the app iss=
ued the event to the OP, it would be saying the user was logged out of the a=
pp. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or may not take action depending on i=
ts policy.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature">We need to explore the use case.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"App=
leMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Talking through us=
e cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token without forming a wg.&=
nbsp;<br>&nbsp;<br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Sq=
uire &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com">sarah@engageidentity.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">=
Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 11=
:02 AM, "Mike Jones" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a breaking change for most implementations, r=
ight?&nbsp; This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The thing you wrote below that makes me=
 think that you=E2=80=99re thinking about the purpose of the ID Events spec d=
ifferently than me is this: =E2=80=9C</span>so that all event
 specs can use it<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; The purpose of the logout ev=
ent *<b>isn=E2=80=99t</b>* for all event specs to use it.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s=
 for the logout use case to use it.&nbsp; There=E2=80=99s no expectation tha=
t events intended
 for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because the=
y won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=
=99t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal, si=
nce events will *<b>always</b>* contain information
 that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re making complexity argume=
nts, whereas you=E2=80=99re also proposing more complex rules than I am (at l=
east as I see it).&nbsp; Trying to restrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 (or
 any other claims) is unneeded complexity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I understand that you see things differ=
ently.&nbsp; I hope you=E2=80=99ll nonetheless think about my argument that h=
aving fewer rules about claims usage in events will make
 them simpler.&nbsp; I passionately care about keeping this simple, which is=
 why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.&nbsp; If it=E2=80=99s=
 simple, it will likely get widely used.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the di=
scussion for now because my wife is about to get out of surgery.&nbsp; I hop=
e you have a good day.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6902039538064361870__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com">ve7jtb@ve7j=
tb.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid">openid-specs=
-ab@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net Ab &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists=
.openid">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id=
-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works i=
f =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.&nb=
sp; Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the point of t=
his work. It also makes the specification much much
 more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies com=
plex implementation too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean tha=
t the OIDC spec format would have to look like:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "iss": "<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//event.example.com</span></a>",<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wb=
r>30",<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#b51a00">"sub": =E2=80=9C=
<a>https://token.example.com/<wbr>248289761001</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "events": [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843e=
a02"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that events are signed (or should be), <u>I wil=
l object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer=
 MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having iss b=
e the same is a nice security
 convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the sam=
e server.&nbsp; At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for large s=
cale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. The re=
striction isn=E2=80=99t really justified
 given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using J=
WT in the first place.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivia=
l that a logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token att=
ached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).&nbsp; IMO, the OIDC=
 logout spec should only convey the ID Token
 JTI.&nbsp; It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a user.&=
nbsp; To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!&nbsp; One c=
an argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirely. I=
t is an account reset or lock-out action.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>www.independentid.com<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See my previous message, John, which wa=
s a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contained=
 a logout claims example.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-case
 the Connect Logout message in any way.&nbsp; The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is t=
he event issuer.&nbsp; The other claims in the message are those defined by t=
he event to be included, just like those for any other event.&nbsp; Yes, the=
 logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subject,
 an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because tho=
se things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the I=
D Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to use a=
n event name as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.&nbsp; Trying to micro-manage c=
laims usage within an event will only result in the ID Events spec being har=
der to use.&nbsp; If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT claims=
 usage, JWT would likely not have been the success
 that it is.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
 Bradley [<a>mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;;
<a>id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&=
gt;;
<a>openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.<wbr>net</a> Ab &lt;<a>openid-specs-ab@lists=
.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will n=
ot be as optimized as a single purpose one.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict=
 around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the one t=
hat created the id_token that it refers to.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Using the same format as id_token with the same seman=
tics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID=
 Connect point of view.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oter messages that have different notions of subject a=
nd are issued by different parties than the one that controls the subject ca=
use issues when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I g=
rant you that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It was mentioned that we need to differentiate betwee=
n these events and id_tokens.&nbsp; Mostly we need to do that in cases where=
 the token might be presented in the front channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c=
_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confu=
sion. &nbsp; Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, &nbsp;an=
d the removal of sub from the top level
 would remove any concern.&nbsp; However Mike has a point that adoption may b=
e hurt if we change the semantics too much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being u=
sed by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side sta=
te. &nbsp; It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That may or may not impact on if it is better to be s=
imple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to=
 fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the two directions lead to different formats.=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodg=
ing the formats together is probably the worst option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>=
<span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?&nbsp; The t=
op level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.&nbsp;</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believ=
e you previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define=
 them. But that isnt unique and requires iss.
 Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub i=
ssuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention awkward=
.&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass is=
s from id token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the cha=
nge in format.&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Why not have a logout be an event with an id token a=
ttached for example?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;w=
ord-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the particul=
ar event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, t=
hen it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, b=
ecause it limits the applicability of the specification.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt (IDM) [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</sp=
an></a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">id-<wbr>event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexit=
y. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individ=
ual spec?&nbsp; IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all imp=
lementers.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that=
 it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This=
 way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, j=
it/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the iss=
uer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token with=
out conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give som=
e examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particular event d=
efines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for multip=
le events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>unrel=
ated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compat=
ible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use ca=
se is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=
- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Marius
 Scurtescu [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</sp=
an></a>]<span><wbr>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr>&nbsp;</span><a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only sh=
ow up at the event level and not at the top level:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible I=
MO.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple ev=
ents per message?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can be used a=
s a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree o=
n keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree wi=
th my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=
=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. Wha=
t is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D&nbsp;
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">http://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the J=
WT containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not usin=
g the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span>&nbsp;</span>=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">=
J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#002060">.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-6902039538064361870_m_-6534435573639673=
786__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span></a><span></span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a=
>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want t=
o confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Un=
fortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the es=
sence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT i=
s the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as pos=
sible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec needs=
 to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Defi=
ne
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Defi=
ne
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Requ=
ire
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the is=
suer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Incl=
ude
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any p=
articular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to application=
s to say what claims are included with events they define and what their for=
mat and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be u=
sed in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restriction=
s on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Eve=
nts spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp;
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The=
 claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event=

 [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</spa=
n></a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>&nbsp;</span></b>Phil
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions o=
n ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussions=
 that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups=
 conference calls.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and t=
he role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextensi=
on=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple=
">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-<wbr>01</span></=
a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in=
 the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader eng=
lish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to o=
bserve that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D g=
o together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subj=
ect identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling=
 seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should b=
e fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevan=
t event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within t=
he event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-obj=
ect can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the i=
ssuer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present i=
n the top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be=
 present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">"iss": "<a><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0=
fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "events": [</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>"</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;"<a><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
ttps://specs.openid.net/<wbr>logout</span></a>": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is de=
fined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a501=
9c-17e1-4977-8f42-<wbr>65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub"=
: "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning w=
ithin the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event ca=
n be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event=
 and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested=
 object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profi=
ling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usual=
ly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for t=
he ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, i=
t might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscrib=
er has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how l=
ong it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp;
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no long=
er need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may a=
lso be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strict=
ly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we a=
void collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the orig=
inal issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedbac=
k correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow t=
he groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/i=
d-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/i=
d-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/i=
d-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a>Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a></span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/</a><=
wbr>listinfo/id-event<br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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References: <14E2EF51-7123-4E91-87DD-56AEA08202C1@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB1645C699D5475DA865258110F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E7BDEC4F-5F22-45E8-A18E-2B2DDDEEE0EA@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB16458A377399DFECBA108D17F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E3D7164D-943B-482B-A0DF-7F60B6BFECAB@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpKmZVWHwGUsLRvrZ5u_APx3Nj_z-p=DNsaH8gHJMM=LTw@mail.gmail.com> <SN1PR0301MB164547C185B3ECB3AD9BDDC1F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <3F0DD3E6-46CD-4AA5-8F06-F79140F5D4BE@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164529CA9F3E68306F2F2EB2F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <F87A9C7F-7AC7-463C-AC58-92E8FC187F30@oracle.com> <56E7DF06-EE77-4FD1-BF44-15A083AC5B5A@ve7jtb.com> <SN1PR0301MB16459867074BFA03B5C401E4F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <12274564-507F-492B-94E8-C65C6A84FDB7@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164534BDE4F6485B1CAC4FACF51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAN1PkMaZcuPk96TNmSUodL9JD2KNBw1Y4XOD8ExBxjOxsM=B0g@mail.gmail.com> <21751371-BD95-4C15-AE01-D42CF4815233@oracle.com>
From: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:30:48 -0700
Message-ID: <CAN1PkMYOpGrJR1NHuH=Q1Zcd10h6Gn862dtDekHiUHPes=9itw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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There are also rp-initiated use cases around suspected fraud, parallel
authentication of a second factor, and issuance of a consent receipt.

On Aug 11, 2016 12:27 PM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Sarah,
>
> Good question!
>
> Your use case is really the app initiated logout or logout within the
> context of a single application.
>
> If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be saying log user out
> of all sso sites for that OP.
>
> If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be saying the
> user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or may
> not take action depending on its policy.
>
> We need to explore the use case.
>
> Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token
> without forming a wg.
>
> Phil
>
> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
> wrote:
>
> Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?
>
> On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a=
 breaking change for most
>> implementations, right?  This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!
>>
>>
>>
>> The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you=E2=80=99re thinki=
ng about
>> the purpose of the ID Events spec differently than me is this: =E2=80=9C=
so that
>> all event specs can use it=E2=80=9D.  The purpose of the logout event **=
isn=E2=80=99t**
>> for all event specs to use it.  It=E2=80=99s for the logout use case to =
use it.
>> There=E2=80=99s no expectation that events intended for one use case wil=
l even be
>> comprehensible in other use cases because they won=E2=80=99t understand =
the
>> contents of the event.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t drive any of the design by =
trying to
>> achieve that unachievable goal, since events will **always** contain
>> information that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.
>>
>>
>>
>> You=E2=80=99re making complexity arguments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also =
proposing more
>> complex rules than I am (at least as I see it).  Trying to restrict the =
use
>> of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claims) is unneeded complexity.
>>
>>
>>
>> I understand that you see things differently.  I hope you=E2=80=99ll non=
etheless
>> think about my argument that having fewer rules about claims usage in
>> events will make them simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this
>> simple, which is why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.  =
If it=E2=80=99s
>> simple, it will likely get widely used.
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the discussion for now because my wife =
is about
>> to get out of surgery.  I hope you have a good day.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net
>> Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius
>> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>> token draft
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>>
>> Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D becomes a
>> URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC becomes a speci=
al
>> case which really kills the point of this work. It also makes the
>> specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex
>> spec generally implies complex implementation too.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec
>> format would have to look like:
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>
>>   "events": [
>>
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>
>>   ],
>>
>>   "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> Given that events are signed (or should be), *I will object strongly
>> within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the s=
ame
>> or that OIDF adopt a different format*. Yes having iss be the same is a
>> nice security convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction t=
hat
>> it be the same server.  At scale, delivery of events may become a proble=
m
>> for large scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying
>> parties. The restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified given the crypto
>> alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using JWT in the firs=
t place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout eve=
nt simply
>> has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached (though it might
>> convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec should only
>> convey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log out all
>> devices for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO within this brows=
er
>> only!  One can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different
>> event entirely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s messa=
ge that
>> you also replied to, that contained a logout claims example.  I=E2=80=99=
m not
>> proposing to special-case the Connect Logout message in any way.  The =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
>> is the event issuer.  The other claims in the message are those defined =
by
>> the event to be included, just like those for any other event.  Yes, the
>> logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subject=
, an ID
>> Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because those
>> things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>> claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that t=
he
>> event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.  Trying to
>> micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Eve=
nts
>> spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-mana=
ge JWT
>> claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success that it is.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
>> *To:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org;
>> Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n
>> et Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>> token draft
>>
>>
>>
>> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimized
>> as a single purpose one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer the =
same
>> entity sending the logout message is always the one that created the
>> id_token that it refers to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify th=
e
>> thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of
>> view.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by
>> different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues wh=
en
>> you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you th=
at.
>>
>>
>>
>> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events and
>> id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be
>> presented in the front channel.
>>
>>
>>
>> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash a=
s
>> well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I ad=
mit
>> that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub from =
the
>> top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point that adopt=
ion
>> may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many social =
login RP,
>> it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is mostly an
>> enterprise and large site sort of feature.
>>
>> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned
>> with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with othe=
r
>> enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the two directions lead to different formats.
>>
>>
>>
>> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats
>> together is probably the worst option.
>>
>>
>>
>> John B.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the
>> issuer of the event as the issuer signs.
>>
>>
>>
>> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously
>> objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But th=
at
>> isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an
>> event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems
>> incredibly complex not to mention awkward.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token woul=
d
>> not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in format.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for example?
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim
>> to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different from any other
>> claim that an event might place at the top level.
>>
>>
>>
>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-=
cased.  We
>> shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the sp=
ecification.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>> token draft
>>
>>
>>
>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you
>> provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?
>> IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all implementers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best t=
o
>> move all event specifics to the event object area. This way different
>> events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). W=
hen
>> iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without
>> conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be u=
sed
>> for a revoked token without conflicting with the event jti.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based on
>> feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>>
>>
>>
>> We can always change again.
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at t=
he top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying
>> that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the parti=
cular event defines
>> that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doubt
>> there are use cases for multiple **unrelated** events per message.  By
>> definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use t=
hem
>> in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single event
>> per JWT.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                      --
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>> token draft
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event
>> level and not at the top level:
>>
>>
>>
>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
>> claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=
=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether
>> the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entir=
ely event-specific.
>>
>>
>>
>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marius
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was referring to this in your email
>>
>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this different from the event uri?
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and
>> general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I thin=
k
>> we then have a good path forward.
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure that=
 we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What
>> is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=80=
=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in
>> my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-lev=
el claim=E2=80=9D.
>> What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.=
net/logou
>> t=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim=
 name in
>> the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not =
using the
>> correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>> token draft
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people w=
ith too many
>> things.
>>
>>
>>
>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your=
 intention there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does no=
t
>> include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data
>> structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believ=
e
>> that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and
>> general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful exampl=
e
>> and do the same here.)
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and
>> these things only:
>>
>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>>
>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
>>
>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the=
 JWT be signed by the
>> issuer
>>
>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims =
to be
>> included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=
=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>>
>>
>>
>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are included
>> with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then th=
e
>> ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being
>> natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>>
>>
>>
>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claims
>> by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose =
and less
>> natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say
>> about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cl=
aims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99
>> and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to=
 be included with an event is
>> entirely event-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular
>> event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>> *To:* id-event@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token
>> draft
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been
>> happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference
>> calls.
>>
>>
>>
>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of
>> =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=
=80=9D attributes.
>>
>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>
>>
>>
>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the
>> subject (in the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be
>> constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated
>> user.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an
>> ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  =
The issuer provides the context for
>> the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is that i=
t
>> might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event.
>>
>>
>>
>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the
>> following:
>>
>>
>>
>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and not
>> include the sub attribute.
>>
>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification ma=
y
>> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub=
-object and not in the
>> top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the us=
er.
>>
>>
>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the event=
 where the state
>> change occurred.
>>
>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structur=
e.  Also,
>> =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here would be a new example logout:
>>
>> {
>>
>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>
>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>
>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>
>>   "events": [
>>
>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>
>>   ],
>>
>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>>
>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>
>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>>
>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can ha=
ve its own iss
>> and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an Open=
ID
>> OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) a=
nd
>> represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>>
>>
>>
>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to
>> validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains a=
ll
>> of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specificatio=
n
>> (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID,
>> logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=
=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D
>> for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>>
>>
>>
>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to in=
clude the expiry
>> of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token.
>> This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocat=
ion
>> information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the sub=
scriber
>> would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top lev=
el describes the
>> subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the original
>> audience of the ID Token.
>>
>>
>>
>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events
>> own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions =
in
>> definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of =
a
>> security assertion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Let=
s continue to
>> discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>

--001a1140211e177a9d0539cff700
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">There are also rp-initiated use cases around suspected fraud=
, parallel authentication of a second factor, and issuance of a consent rec=
eipt.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 1=
2:27 PM, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Sarah,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Good question!</div><div><br></div><div>Your use case is really the app i=
nitiated logout or logout within the context of a single application.=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would=
 be saying log user out of all sso sites for that OP.=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><div>If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be sayin=
g the user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or=
 may not take action depending on its policy.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>We need to explore the use case.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Talking t=
hrough use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token without form=
ing a wg.=C2=A0<br>=C2=A0<br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 A=
M, Sarah Squire &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" target=3D"_=
blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">Are we including use cases where the RP is t=
he event issuer?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 1=
1:02 AM, &quot;Mike Jones&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br typ=
e=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a breaking change for most implementation=
s, right?=C2=A0 This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The thing you wrote below that makes =
me think that you=E2=80=99re thinking about the purpose of the ID Events sp=
ec differently than me is this: =E2=80=9C</span>so that all event
 specs can use it<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The purpose of the logout =
event *<b>isn=E2=80=99t</b>* for all event specs to use it.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=
=99s for the logout use case to use it.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s no expectatio=
n that events intended
 for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because th=
ey won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=
=80=99t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal=
, since events will *<b>always</b>* contain information
 that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re making complexity argu=
ments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also proposing more complex rules than I am (=
at least as I see it).=C2=A0 Trying to restrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D (or
 any other claims) is unneeded complexity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I understand that you see things diff=
erently.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2=80=99ll nonetheless think about my argument th=
at having fewer rules about claims usage in events will make
 them simpler.=C2=A0 I passionately care about keeping this simple, which i=
s why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.=C2=A0 If it=E2=80=
=99s simple, it will likely get widely used.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the =
discussion for now because my wife is about to get out of surgery.=C2=A0 I =
hope you have a good day.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4477680742660022366_m_-6902039538064361=
870__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt [mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"=
_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.=
openid" target=3D"_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.n<wbr>et Ab &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid" target=3D"_blank">openid-sp=
ecs-ab@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event t=
oken draft<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works=
 if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.=
=C2=A0 Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the point =
of this work. It also makes the specification much much
 more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies co=
mplex implementation too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean th=
at the OIDC spec format would have to look like:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://event.example.com</span></a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0f=
b1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#b51a00">&quot;sub&quot;=
: =E2=80=9C<a>https://token.example.com/248<wbr>289761001</a>&quot;,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;sid&quot;: &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f4=
2-65a12<wbr>843ea02&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that events are signed (or should be), <u>I wi=
ll object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issu=
er MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having i=
ss be the same is a nice security
 convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the sa=
me server.=C2=A0 At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for larg=
e scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. Th=
e restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified
 given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using =
JWT in the first place.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivi=
al that a logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token a=
ttached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).=C2=A0 IMO, the O=
IDC logout spec should only convey the ID Token
 JTI.=C2=A0 It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a user.=
=C2=A0 To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!=C2=A0 On=
e can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirel=
y. It is an account reset or lock-out action.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>www.independentid.com=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a>Micha=
el.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See my previous message, John, which =
was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contai=
ned a logout claims example.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-cas=
e
 the Connect Logout message in any way.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is =
the event issuer.=C2=A0 The other claims in the message are those defined b=
y the event to be included, just like those for any other event.=C2=A0 Yes,=
 the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subje=
ct,
 an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because th=
ose things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As I=E2=80=99d written previously, th=
e ID Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to u=
se an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.=C2=A0 Trying to micro-manage=
 claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Events spec being =
harder to use.=C2=A0 If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT cl=
aims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success
 that it is.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
 Bradley [<a>mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<=
/a>&gt;;
<a>id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a>mscurtescu@google.com</a>=
&gt;;
<a>openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n<wbr>et</a> Ab &lt;<a>openid-specs-ab@list=
s.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will =
not be as optimized as a single purpose one.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflic=
t around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the on=
e that created the id_token that it refers to.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Using the same format as id_token with the same sema=
ntics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely open=
ID Connect point of view.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oter messages that have different notions of subject=
 and are issued by different parties than the one that controls the subject=
 cause issues when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token=
, I grant you that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It was mentioned that we need to differentiate betwe=
en these events and id_tokens.=C2=A0 Mostly we need to do that in cases whe=
re the token might be presented in the front channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and=
 c_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce co=
nfusion. =C2=A0 Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, =C2=
=A0and the removal of sub from the top level
 would remove any concern.=C2=A0 However Mike has a point that adoption may=
 be hurt if we change the semantics too much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being =
used by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side s=
tate. =C2=A0 It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That may or may not impact on if it is better to be =
simple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose =
to fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the two directions lead to different formats=
. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bod=
ging the formats together is probably the worst option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a=
><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?=C2=A0 Th=
e top level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I beli=
eve you previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens def=
ine them. But that isnt unique and requires iss.
 Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub=
 issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention awkw=
ard.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass =
iss from id token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the =
change in format.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Why not have a logout be an event with an id token=
 attached for example?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;=
word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the partic=
ular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level=
, then it is.=C2=A0 This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=80=99t do tha=
t, because it limits the applicability of the specification.</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt (IDM) [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</s=
pan></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">id-ev<wbr>ent@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexi=
ty. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an indiv=
idual spec?=C2=A0 IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all =
implementers.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed tha=
t it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. Th=
is way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, ur=
i, jit/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the is=
suer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token wi=
thout conflicting with the event jti.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give so=
me examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m saying=
 that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particu=
lar event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for mult=
iple events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>un=
related</b>* events per message.=C2=A0 By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compa=
tible way.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use =
case is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Mari=
us
 Scurtescu [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</s=
pan></a>]<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><a><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only s=
how up at the event level and not at the top level:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should s=
ay about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cl=
aims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether=
 the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirel=
y event-specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible=
 IMO.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple e=
vents per message?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can b=
e used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agre=
e on keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agre=
e with my write-up.=C2=A0 I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by=
 =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D=C2=A0
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =
=E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=
=9D.=C2=A0 What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">http://specs.openid.net/logou<wbr>t</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the =
JWT containing information about the event.=C2=A0 (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not us=
ing the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span>=C2=A0</sp=
an></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#0020=
60">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:#002060">.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank=
s again,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4477680742660022366_m_-6902039538064361=
870_m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a=
><span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></=
a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want=
 to confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.=C2=A0 =
Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the=
 essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. =C2=A0(I strongly believe that JWT=
 is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as =
possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec nee=
ds to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the i=
ssuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any=
 particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to applicati=
ons to say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.=C2=A0 Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be=
 used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restricti=
ons on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.=C2=A0
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=
=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=
=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.=C2=
=A0 The claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=
=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-e=
vent
 [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</sp=
an></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Phil
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions=
 on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussion=
s that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working grou=
ps conference calls.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and =
the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cexten=
sion=E2=80=9D attributes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://tools.ietf.org/ht<wbr>ml/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used i=
n the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader e=
nglish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Toke=
n definition which is the authenticated user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to=
 observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D go together.=C2=A0 The issuer provides the context for the authenticate=
d subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feelin=
g seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0The Event Token top level attributes should =
be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0For events that are about a user, the releva=
nt event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within=
 the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-=
object can also include the issuer of the user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the=
 issuer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present =
in the top level structure.=C2=A0 Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also =
be present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://server.example.com</span></a>&quot;,</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3=
&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797=
584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>&quot;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0&quot;<a><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://specs.openid.net/log<wbr>out</span></a>&quot;: {</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- This level is d=
efined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quo=
t;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cjti&quot;: &=
quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=
=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meani=
ng within the context of an OpenID OP provider.=C2=A0 The issuer of the eve=
nt can be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual even=
t and are used to validate the event (signing etc).=C2=A0 Where as the nest=
ed object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the pr=
ofiling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).=C2=A0 In this case, in OpenID, logging out usua=
lly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D fo=
r the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.=C2=A0 Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D,=
 it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subsc=
riber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know =
how long it needs to keep the revocation information for.=C2=A0
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no lon=
ger need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.=C2=A0 This m=
ay also be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes stric=
tly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we=
 avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the o=
riginal issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedba=
ck correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follo=
w the groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:54:33 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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Can we step back and look at all the requirements mentioned in this thread
and see if we can simplify them:
1. Multiple events per SET (Security Event Token).
2. SET issuer different from event issuer.
3. Existing Id Token parsers must not confuse a SET for an Id Token.
4. Nested token format.

4 is needed by 1.
4 can fulfill 3, if sub can be present only in nested events.

I don't think 1 is really needed, but with 4 it comes really easy.

A nested format with sub only at event level seems to meet all the
requirements.

Allowing different event specs to define top level claims, like sub, is
very problematic IMO because you can run into incompatible events. Same
with requiring that all events in a single token must refer to the same
sub. This can lead to very complex and buggy publisher implementations.



Marius

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
wrote:

> There are also rp-initiated use cases around suspected fraud, parallel
> authentication of a second factor, and issuance of a consent receipt.
>
> On Aug 11, 2016 12:27 PM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Sarah,
>>
>> Good question!
>>
>> Your use case is really the app initiated logout or logout within the
>> context of a single application.
>>
>> If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be saying log user out
>> of all sso sites for that OP.
>>
>> If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be saying the
>> user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or ma=
y
>> not take action depending on its policy.
>>
>> We need to explore the use case.
>>
>> Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token
>> without forming a wg.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?
>>
>> On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is =
a breaking change for
>>> most implementations, right?  This is hardly a way to encourage adoptio=
n!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you=E2=80=99re think=
ing about
>>> the purpose of the ID Events spec differently than me is this: =E2=80=
=9Cso that
>>> all event specs can use it=E2=80=9D.  The purpose of the logout event *=
*isn=E2=80=99t**
>>> for all event specs to use it.  It=E2=80=99s for the logout use case to=
 use it.
>>> There=E2=80=99s no expectation that events intended for one use case wi=
ll even be
>>> comprehensible in other use cases because they won=E2=80=99t understand=
 the
>>> contents of the event.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t drive any of the design by=
 trying to
>>> achieve that unachievable goal, since events will **always** contain
>>> information that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You=E2=80=99re making complexity arguments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also=
 proposing more
>>> complex rules than I am (at least as I see it).  Trying to restrict the=
 use
>>> of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claims) is unneeded complexity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I understand that you see things differently.  I hope you=E2=80=99ll no=
netheless
>>> think about my argument that having fewer rules about claims usage in
>>> events will make them simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this
>>> simple, which is why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion. =
 If it=E2=80=99s
>>> simple, it will likely get widely used.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the discussion for now because my wife=
 is about
>>> to get out of surgery.  I hope you have a good day.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.ne=
t
>>> Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius
>>> Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>>> token draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D becomes a
>>> URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC becomes a spec=
ial
>>> case which really kills the point of this work. It also makes the
>>> specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a comple=
x
>>> spec generally implies complex implementation too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec
>>> format would have to look like:
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>>
>>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>>
>>>   "events": [
>>>
>>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>>
>>>   ],
>>>
>>>   "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Given that events are signed (or should be), *I will object strongly
>>> within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the =
same
>>> or that OIDF adopt a different format*. Yes having iss be the same is a
>>> nice security convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction =
that
>>> it be the same server.  At scale, delivery of events may become a probl=
em
>>> for large scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying
>>> parties. The restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified given the crypt=
o
>>> alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using JWT in the fir=
st place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout ev=
ent
>>> simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached (though it
>>> might convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec shou=
ld
>>> only convey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log out =
all
>>> devices for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO within this brow=
ser
>>> only!  One can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different
>>> event entirely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s mess=
age that
>>> you also replied to, that contained a logout claims example.  I=E2=80=
=99m not
>>> proposing to special-case the Connect Logout message in any way.  The =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D
>>> is the event issuer.  The other claims in the message are those defined=
 by
>>> the event to be included, just like those for any other event.  Yes, th=
e
>>> logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subjec=
t, an ID
>>> Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because those
>>> things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define the=
 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>> claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that =
the
>>> event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.  Trying to
>>> micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Ev=
ents
>>> spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-man=
age JWT
>>> claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success that it is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
>>> *To:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org;
>>> Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.=
n
>>> et Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>>> token draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimized
>>> as a single purpose one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer the=
 same
>>> entity sending the logout message is always the one that created the
>>> id_token that it refers to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify
>>> the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect poi=
nt
>>> of view.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by
>>> different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues w=
hen
>>> you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you t=
hat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events and
>>> id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be
>>> presented in the front channel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash
>>> as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now =
I
>>> admit that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of su=
b
>>> from the top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point =
that
>>> adoption may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many social=
 login
>>> RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is mostly a=
n
>>> enterprise and large site sort of feature.
>>>
>>> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned
>>> with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with oth=
er
>>> enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the two directions lead to different formats.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats
>>> together is probably the worst option.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John B.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the
>>> issuer of the event as the issuer signs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously
>>> objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But t=
hat
>>> isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would have sub at the top with an
>>> event issuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems
>>> incredibly complex not to mention awkward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token
>>> would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in form=
at.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for example=
?
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D
>>> claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different from an=
y
>>> other claim that an event might place at the top level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special=
-cased.  We
>>> shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability of the s=
pecification.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>>> token draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you
>>> provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?
>>> IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all implementers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best
>>> to move all event specifics to the event object area. This way differen=
t
>>> events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). =
When
>>> iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without
>>> conflicting with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be =
used
>>> for a revoked token without conflicting with the event jti.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based o=
n
>>> feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We can always change again.
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at =
the top level.  I=E2=80=99m
>>> saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if t=
he particular event
>>> defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is used in that way for that event.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I doub=
t
>>> there are use cases for multiple **unrelated** events per message.  By
>>> definition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use =
them
>>> in a compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single even=
t
>>> per JWT.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                                      --
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Cc:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>>> token draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the event
>>> level and not at the top level:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
>>> claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98events=
=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether
>>> the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is enti=
rely event-specific.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>> I was referring to this in your email
>>>
>>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this different from the event uri?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and
>>> general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I thi=
nk
>>> we then have a good path forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure tha=
t we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What
>>> is your intention there.=E2=80=9D  The only place I used the word =E2=
=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in
>>> my statement =E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-le=
vel claim=E2=80=9D.
>>> What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C
>>> http://specs.openid.net/logout=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that =
it can
>>> also be used as a claim name in the JWT containing information about th=
e
>>> event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not using the correct terminology, hence the=
 unintended
>>> confusion J.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event
>>> token draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people =
with too many
>>> things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is you=
r intention there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does
>>> not include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events
>>> data structure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly
>>> believe that JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and
>>> general-purpose as possible, and we should follow this successful examp=
le
>>> and do the same here.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and
>>> these things only:
>>>
>>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>>>
>>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim
>>>
>>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that th=
e JWT be signed by
>>> the issuer
>>>
>>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims=
 to be
>>> included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=
=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are include=
d
>>> with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then t=
he
>>> ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being
>>> natural for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular claim=
s
>>> by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose=
 and less
>>> natural to use.  In particular, the only thing that the spec should say
>>> about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other c=
laims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99
>>> and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is t=
o be included with an event is
>>> entirely event-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular
>>> event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>>> Hunt
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>>> *To:* id-event@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token
>>> draft
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been
>>> happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference
>>> calls.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of
>>> =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=
=80=9D attributes.
>>>
>>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to =
=E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the
>>> subject (in the broader english sense) of the event, or should it be
>>> constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which is the authenticated
>>> user.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in an
>>> ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together. =
 The issuer provides the context for
>>> the authenticated subject identifier. The problem with events, is that =
it
>>> might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing the event.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the
>>> following:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and no=
t
>>> include the sub attribute.
>>>
>>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification
>>> may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99=
s sub-object and not in the
>>> top-level. Further that sub-object can also include the issuer of the u=
ser.
>>>
>>>
>>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the even=
t where the state
>>> change occurred.
>>>
>>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level structu=
re.  Also,
>>> =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here would be a new example logout:
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>>
>>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>>
>>>   "events": [
>>>
>>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>>
>>>   ],
>>>
>>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>>>
>>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>>
>>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>>>
>>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>>
>>>   }
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can h=
ave its own iss
>>> and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an Ope=
nID
>>> OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) =
and
>>> represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to
>>> validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains =
all
>>> of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specificati=
on
>>> (e.g. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID,
>>> logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=
=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D
>>> for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to i=
nclude the expiry
>>> of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token=
.
>>> This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revoca=
tion
>>> information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the su=
bscriber
>>> would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top le=
vel describes the
>>> subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the original
>>> audience of the ID Token.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the event=
s
>>> own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions=
 in
>>> definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of=
 a
>>> security assertion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. Le=
ts continue to
>>> discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Can we step back and look at all the requirements mentione=
d in this thread and see if we can simplify them:<div>1. Multiple events pe=
r SET=C2=A0(Security Event Token).</div><div>2. SET issuer different from e=
vent issuer.</div><div>3. Existing Id Token parsers must not confuse a SET =
for an Id Token.</div><div>4. Nested token format.</div><div><br></div><div=
>4 is needed by 1.</div><div>4 can fulfill 3, if sub can be present only in=
 nested events.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think 1 is really =
needed, but with 4 it comes really easy.</div><div><br></div><div>A nested =
format with sub only at event level seems to meet all the requirements.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Allowing different event specs to define top level cl=
aims, like sub, is very problematic IMO because you can run into incompatib=
le events. Same with requiring that all events in a single token must refer=
 to the same sub. This can lead to very complex and buggy publisher impleme=
ntations.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"=
gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah Squi=
re <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" target=
=3D"_blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">There are also rp-initiated use cases arou=
nd suspected fraud, parallel authentication of a second factor, and issuanc=
e of a consent receipt.</p><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 1=
2:27 PM, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attr=
ibution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Sarah,</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Good question!</div><div><br></div><div>Your use case i=
s really the app initiated logout or logout within the context of a single =
application.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If the app initiated front/ bac=
kchannel you would be saying log user out of all sso sites for that OP.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If instead, the app issued the event to the OP=
, it would be saying the user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the=
 app. The OP may or may not take action depending on its policy.=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>We need to explore the use case.=C2=A0</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id=
 token without forming a wg.=C2=A0<br>=C2=A0<br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 1=
1, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidenti=
ty.com" target=3D"_blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">Are we including use case=
s where the RP is the event issuer?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 1=
1:02 AM, &quot;Mike Jones&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br typ=
e=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a breaking change for most implementation=
s, right?=C2=A0 This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The thing you wrote below that makes =
me think that you=E2=80=99re thinking about the purpose of the ID Events sp=
ec differently than me is this: =E2=80=9C</span>so that all event
 specs can use it<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The purpose of the logout =
event *<b>isn=E2=80=99t</b>* for all event specs to use it.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=
=99s for the logout use case to use it.=C2=A0 There=E2=80=99s no expectatio=
n that events intended
 for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because th=
ey won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=
=80=99t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal=
, since events will *<b>always</b>* contain information
 that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re making complexity argu=
ments, whereas you=E2=80=99re also proposing more complex rules than I am (=
at least as I see it).=C2=A0 Trying to restrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D (or
 any other claims) is unneeded complexity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I understand that you see things diff=
erently.=C2=A0 I hope you=E2=80=99ll nonetheless think about my argument th=
at having fewer rules about claims usage in events will make
 them simpler.=C2=A0 I passionately care about keeping this simple, which i=
s why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.=C2=A0 If it=E2=80=
=99s simple, it will likely get widely used.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the =
discussion for now because my wife is about to get out of surgery.=C2=A0 I =
hope you have a good day.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8168088028950720856_m_4477680742660022=
366_m_-6902039538064361870__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt [mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"=
_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.=
openid" target=3D"_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.n<wbr>et Ab &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid" target=3D"_blank">openid-sp=
ecs-ab@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event t=
oken draft<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works=
 if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.=
=C2=A0 Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the point =
of this work. It also makes the specification much much
 more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies co=
mplex implementation too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean th=
at the OIDC spec format would have to look like:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://event.example.com</span></a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3&quot;,<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0f=
b1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#b51a00">&quot;sub&quot;=
: =E2=80=9C<a>https://token.example.com/248<wbr>289761001</a>&quot;,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 &quot;sid&quot;: &quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f4=
2-65a12<wbr>843ea02&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that events are signed (or should be), <u>I wi=
ll object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issu=
er MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having i=
ss be the same is a nice security
 convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the sa=
me server.=C2=A0 At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for larg=
e scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. Th=
e restriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified
 given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using =
JWT in the first place.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivi=
al that a logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token a=
ttached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).=C2=A0 IMO, the O=
IDC logout spec should only convey the ID Token
 JTI.=C2=A0 It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a user.=
=C2=A0 To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!=C2=A0 On=
e can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirel=
y. It is an account reset or lock-out action.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>www.independentid.com=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a>Micha=
el.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See my previous message, John, which =
was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contai=
ned a logout claims example.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-cas=
e
 the Connect Logout message in any way.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is =
the event issuer.=C2=A0 The other claims in the message are those defined b=
y the event to be included, just like those for any other event.=C2=A0 Yes,=
 the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subje=
ct,
 an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because th=
ose things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As I=E2=80=99d written previously, th=
e ID Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to u=
se an event name as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.=C2=A0 Trying to micro-manage=
 claims usage within an event will only result in the ID Events spec being =
harder to use.=C2=A0 If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT cl=
aims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success
 that it is.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
 Bradley [<a>mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<=
/a>&gt;;
<a>id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a>mscurtescu@google.com</a>=
&gt;;
<a>openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n<wbr>et</a> Ab &lt;<a>openid-specs-ab@list=
s.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will =
not be as optimized as a single purpose one.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflic=
t around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the on=
e that created the id_token that it refers to.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Using the same format as id_token with the same sema=
ntics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely open=
ID Connect point of view.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oter messages that have different notions of subject=
 and are issued by different parties than the one that controls the subject=
 cause issues when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token=
, I grant you that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It was mentioned that we need to differentiate betwe=
en these events and id_tokens.=C2=A0 Mostly we need to do that in cases whe=
re the token might be presented in the front channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and=
 c_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce co=
nfusion. =C2=A0 Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, =C2=
=A0and the removal of sub from the top level
 would remove any concern.=C2=A0 However Mike has a point that adoption may=
 be hurt if we change the semantics too much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being =
used by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side s=
tate. =C2=A0 It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That may or may not impact on if it is better to be =
simple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose =
to fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the two directions lead to different formats=
. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bod=
ging the formats together is probably the worst option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a=
><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?=C2=A0 Th=
e top level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I beli=
eve you previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens def=
ine them. But that isnt unique and requires iss.
 Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub=
 issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention awkw=
ard.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass =
iss from id token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the =
change in format.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Why not have a logout be an event with an id token=
 attached for example?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;=
word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the partic=
ular event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level=
, then it is.=C2=A0 This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.=C2=A0 We shouldn=E2=80=99t do tha=
t, because it limits the applicability of the specification.</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt (IDM) [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</s=
pan></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">id-ev<wbr>ent@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexi=
ty. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an indiv=
idual spec?=C2=A0 IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all =
implementers.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed tha=
t it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. Th=
is way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, ur=
i, jit/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the is=
suer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token wi=
thout conflicting with the event jti.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give so=
me examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m saying=
 that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particu=
lar event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for mult=
iple events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>un=
related</b>* events per message.=C2=A0 By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compa=
tible way.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use =
case is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Mari=
us
 Scurtescu [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</s=
pan></a>]<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr>=C2=A0</span><a><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only s=
how up at the event level and not at the top level:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should s=
ay about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other cl=
aims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether=
 the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirel=
y event-specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible=
 IMO.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple e=
vents per message?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can b=
e used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agre=
e on keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agre=
e with my write-up.=C2=A0 I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by=
 =E2=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D=
. What is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D=C2=A0
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =
=E2=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=
=9D.=C2=A0 What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">http://specs.openid.net/logou<wbr>t</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the =
JWT containing information about the event.=C2=A0 (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not us=
ing the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span>=C2=A0</sp=
an></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#0020=
60">J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:#002060">.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thank=
s again,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8168088028950720856_m_4477680742660022=
366_m_-6902039538064361870_m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0=
02060">=C2=A0</span></a><span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></=
a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discuss=
ions on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want=
 to confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=
=80=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.=C2=A0 =
Unfortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the=
 essence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. =C2=A0(I strongly believe that JWT=
 is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as =
possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here=
.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec nee=
ds to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Define
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Require
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the i=
ssuer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;c=
olor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">Include
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any=
 particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to applicati=
ons to say what claims are included with events they define and what their =
format and meanings are.=C2=A0 Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be=
 used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restricti=
ons on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID =
Events spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.=C2=A0
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=
=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=
=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.=C2=
=A0 The claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=
=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-e=
vent
 [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</sp=
an></a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>Phil
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.=
org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions=
 on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussion=
s that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working grou=
ps conference calls.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and =
the role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cexten=
sion=E2=80=9D attributes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span>=C2=A0</span><a><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">https://tools.ietf.org/ht<wbr>ml/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used i=
n the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader e=
nglish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Toke=
n definition which is the authenticated user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to=
 observe that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D go together.=C2=A0 The issuer provides the context for the authenticate=
d subject identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feelin=
g seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0The Event Token top level attributes should =
be fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0For events that are about a user, the releva=
nt event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within=
 the event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-=
object can also include the issuer of the user. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the=
 issuer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present =
in the top level structure.=C2=A0 Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also =
be present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 <span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://server.example.com</span></a>&quot;,</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: &quot;s6BhdRkqt3=
&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797=
584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458668180,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;exp&quot;: 1458668580,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: [</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>&quot;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">=C2=A0 ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0&quot;<a><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://specs.openid.net/log<wbr>out</span></a>&quot;: {</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- This level is d=
efined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quo=
t;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cjti&quot;: &=
quot;08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;sub&quot;: &quot;248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=
=80=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meani=
ng within the context of an OpenID OP provider.=C2=A0 The issuer of the eve=
nt can be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual even=
t and are used to validate the event (signing etc).=C2=A0 Where as the nest=
ed object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the pr=
ofiling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).=C2=A0 In this case, in OpenID, logging out usua=
lly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D fo=
r the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.=C2=A0 Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D,=
 it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subsc=
riber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know =
how long it needs to keep the revocation information for.=C2=A0
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no lon=
ger need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.=C2=A0 This m=
ay also be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes stric=
tly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we=
 avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the o=
riginal issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedba=
ck correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follo=
w the groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.co=
m</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-even=
t</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/=
id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/=
id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/=
id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a>Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a></span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
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f.org/mailman/</a>l<wbr>istinfo/id-event<br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c192e74298e6e0539d04d8f--


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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
References: <14E2EF51-7123-4E91-87DD-56AEA08202C1@oracle.com> <E3D7164D-943B-482B-A0DF-7F60B6BFECAB@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpKmZVWHwGUsLRvrZ5u_APx3Nj_z-p=DNsaH8gHJMM=LTw@mail.gmail.com> <SN1PR0301MB164547C185B3ECB3AD9BDDC1F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <3F0DD3E6-46CD-4AA5-8F06-F79140F5D4BE@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164529CA9F3E68306F2F2EB2F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <F87A9C7F-7AC7-463C-AC58-92E8FC187F30@oracle.com> <56E7DF06-EE77-4FD1-BF44-15A083AC5B5A@ve7jtb.com> <SN1PR0301MB16459867074BFA03B5C401E4F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <12274564-507F-492B-94E8-C65C6A84FDB7@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164534BDE4F6485B1CAC4FACF51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAN1PkMaZcuPk96TNmSUodL9JD2KNBw1Y4XOD8ExBxjOxsM=B0g@mail.gmail.com> <21751371-BD95-4C15-AE01-D42CF4815233@oracle.com> <CAN1PkMYOpGrJR1NHuH=Q1Zcd10h6Gn862dtDekHiUHPes=9itw@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJp+YbxT+YyR0OYfJSAmA=-kJhDmVTf2V063_NMOtx9xaxQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Openid-specs-ab] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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+1 to this.

I'd also add that the "pass through" logic I mentioned in the other 
email fits this as well. Basically, if my event *doesn't* have a "sub", 
then I assume it's the same "sub" as the root object. But the lower 
level would always shadow the upper one, in the context of the event 
itself.

This is of course an optimization, but it allows for the kind of 
structures like Mike is talking about without things getting overly 
weird for the general case.

  -- Justin


On 8/11/2016 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
> Can we step back and look at all the requirements mentioned in this 
> thread and see if we can simplify them:
> 1. Multiple events per SET (Security Event Token).
> 2. SET issuer different from event issuer.
> 3. Existing Id Token parsers must not confuse a SET for an Id Token.
> 4. Nested token format.
>
> 4 is needed by 1.
> 4 can fulfill 3, if sub can be present only in nested events.
>
> I don't think 1 is really needed, but with 4 it comes really easy.
>
> A nested format with sub only at event level seems to meet all the 
> requirements.
>
> Allowing different event specs to define top level claims, like sub, 
> is very problematic IMO because you can run into incompatible events. 
> Same with requiring that all events in a single token must refer to 
> the same sub. This can lead to very complex and buggy publisher 
> implementations.
>
>
>
> Marius
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah Squire 
> <sarah@engageidentity.com <mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com>> wrote:
>
>     There are also rp-initiated use cases around suspected fraud,
>     parallel authentication of a second factor, and issuance of a
>     consent receipt.
>
>
>     On Aug 11, 2016 12:27 PM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>     <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>         Sarah,
>
>         Good question!
>
>         Your use case is really the app initiated logout or logout
>         within the context of a single application.
>
>         If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be saying
>         log user out of all sso sites for that OP.
>
>         If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be
>         saying the user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the
>         app. The OP may or may not take action depending on its policy.
>
>         We need to explore the use case.
>
>         Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing
>         id token without forming a wg.
>
>         Phil
>
>         On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire
>         <sarah@engageidentity.com <mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com>>
>         wrote:
>
>>         Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?
>>
>>
>>         On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones"
>>         <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>         <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             You’re aware that forcing “sub” to be a URI is a breaking
>>             change for most implementations, right? This is hardly a
>>             way to encourage adoption!
>>
>>             The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you’re
>>             thinking about the purpose of the ID Events spec
>>             differently than me is this: “so that all event specs can
>>             use it”. The purpose of the logout event **isn’t** for
>>             all event specs to use it.  It’s for the logout use case
>>             to use it.  There’s no expectation that events intended
>>             for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use
>>             cases because they won’t understand the contents of the
>>             event.  We shouldn’t drive any of the design by trying to
>>             achieve that unachievable goal, since events will
>>             **always** contain information that’s specific to their
>>             use case.
>>
>>             You’re making complexity arguments, whereas you’re also
>>             proposing more complex rules than I am (at least as I see
>>             it). Trying to restrict the use of “sub” (or any other
>>             claims) is unneeded complexity.
>>
>>             I understand that you see things differently.  I hope
>>             you’ll nonetheless think about my argument that having
>>             fewer rules about claims usage in events will make them
>>             simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this simple,
>>             which is why I’m investing my time in this discussion. 
>>             If it’s simple, it will likely get widely used.
>>
>>             I’m going to sign out of the discussion for now because
>>             my wife is about to get out of surgery.  I hope you have
>>             a good day.
>>
>>             -- Mike
>>
>>             *From:*Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>             <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]
>>             *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
>>             *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>             <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>             *Cc:* John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com
>>             <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid
>>             <mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid>.net Ab
>>             <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid
>>             <mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid>.net>;
>>             id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>; Marius
>>             Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com
>>             <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>>             *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions
>>             on ID-Event token draft
>>
>>             Mike,
>>
>>             Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if
>>             “sub” becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it. 
>>             Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills
>>             the point of this work. It also makes the specification
>>             much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a
>>             complex spec generally implies complex implementation too.
>>
>>             If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that
>>             the OIDC spec format would have to look like:
>>
>>             {
>>
>>               "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>>
>>               "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>               "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>             "sub": “https://token.example.com/248289761001",
>>
>>               "iat": 1458668180,
>>
>>               "exp": 1458668580,
>>
>>             "events": [
>>
>>                 "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>
>>               ],
>>
>>               "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>
>>             }
>>
>>             Given that events are signed (or should be), _I will
>>             object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and
>>             the token issuer MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a
>>             different format_. Yes having iss be the same is a nice
>>             security convenience, but it imposes the architecture
>>             restriction that it be the same server. At scale,
>>             delivery of events may become a problem for large scale
>>             providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying
>>             parties. The restriction isn’t really justified given the
>>             crypto alternative — which was the whole point of using
>>             JWT in the first place.
>>
>>             Per Justin’s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a
>>             logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID
>>             Token attached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded
>>             claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec should only convey
>>             the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log
>>             out all devices for a user.  To most users, it means
>>             clear SSO within this browser only!  One can argue that
>>             clearing all devices/sessions is a different event
>>             entirely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>>
>>             Phil
>>
>>             @independentid
>>
>>             www.independentid.com
>>
>>             phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>                 On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones
>>                 <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>                 See my previous message, John, which was a reply to
>>                 Phil’s message that you also replied to, that
>>                 contained a logout claims example.  I’m not proposing
>>                 to special-case the Connect Logout message in any
>>                 way. The “iss” is the event issuer.  The other claims
>>                 in the message are those defined by the event to be
>>                 included, just like those for any other event.  Yes,
>>                 the logout message doesn’t include a second issuer, a
>>                 second subject, an ID Token as a claim, or anything
>>                 else complicated like that, because those things
>>                 aren’t needed for the logout use case.
>>
>>                 As I’d written previously, the ID Events spec should
>>                 define the “events” claim, how to use an event name
>>                 as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
>>                 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.  Trying
>>                 to micro-manage claims usage within an event will
>>                 only result in the ID Events spec being harder to
>>                 use.  If we’d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT
>>                 claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the
>>                 success that it is.
>>
>>                 -- Mike
>>
>>                 *From:*John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]
>>                 *Sent:*Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
>>                 *To:*Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>                 *Cc:*Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>;
>>                 id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu
>>                 <mscurtescu@google.com>;
>>                 openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab
>>                 <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
>>                 *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent
>>                 discussions on ID-Event token draft
>>
>>                 Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will
>>                 not be as optimized as a single purpose one.
>>
>>                 Connect itself doesn’t really have a conflict around
>>                 issuer the same entity sending the logout message is
>>                 always the one that created the id_token that it
>>                 refers to.
>>
>>                 Using the same format as id_token with the same
>>                 semantics to identify the thing to be terminated
>>                 makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of view.
>>
>>                 Oter messages that have different notions of subject
>>                 and are issued by different parties than the one that
>>                 controls the subject cause issues when you try and
>>                 fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant
>>                 you that.
>>
>>                 It was mentioned that we need to differentiate
>>                 between these events and id_tokens. Mostly we need to
>>                 do that in cases where the token might be presented
>>                 in the front channel.
>>
>>                 To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and
>>                 c_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events
>>                 parameter to reduce confusion. Now I admit that some
>>                 people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of
>>                 sub from the top level would remove any concern.
>>                 However Mike has a point that adoption may be hurt if
>>                 we change the semantics too much.
>>
>>                 I don’t see backchannel single logout being used by
>>                 many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain
>>                 server side state. It is mostly an enterprise and
>>                 large site sort of feature.
>>
>>                 That may or may not impact on if it is better to be
>>                 simple and aligned with connect’s id token or more
>>                 general purpose to fit with other enterprise to SaaS
>>                 features like SCIM events.
>>
>>                 I think the two directions lead to different formats.
>>
>>                 The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and
>>                 bodging the formats together is probably the worst
>>                 option.
>>
>>                 John B.
>>
>>                     On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                     <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>                     How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The
>>                     top level has to be the issuer of the event as
>>                     the issuer signs.
>>
>>                     If one spec can use it all must be able to. I
>>                     believe you previously objected to that saying
>>                     sub must be as how id tokens define them. But
>>                     that isnt unique and requires iss. Now we would
>>                     have sub at the top with an event issuer at the
>>                     top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems
>>                     incredibly complex not to mention awkward.
>>
>>                     If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass
>>                     iss from id token would not be needed. But i can
>>                     see many objecting to the change in format.
>>
>>                     Why not have a logout be an event with an id
>>                     token attached for example?
>>
>>
>>                     Phil
>>
>>
>>                     On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones
>>                     <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>                         The simple rule is that if the particular
>>                         event calls for the “sub” claim to be at the
>>                         top level, then it is. This is no different
>>                         from any other claim that an event might
>>                         place at the top level.
>>
>>                         The complexity arises if “sub” is
>>                         unnecessarily special-cased.  We shouldn’t do
>>                         that, because it limits the applicability of
>>                         the specification.
>>
>>                         -- Mike
>>
>>                         *From:*Phil Hunt (IDM)
>>                         [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>                         *Sent:*Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>>                         *To:*Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>                         *Cc:*Marius Scurtescu
>>                         <mscurtescu@google.com>;id-event@ietf.org
>>                         *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent
>>                         discussions on ID-Event token draft
>>
>>                         I think using sub at the top level leads to
>>                         complexity. Eg Can you provide a rule for
>>                         when top level is used or not by an
>>                         individual spec?  IMO. Top level should
>>                         always be used the same way by all implementers.
>>
>>                         Based on the calls at risc/connect, we
>>                         discussed that it would be best to move all
>>                         event specifics to the event object area.
>>                         This way different events can have different
>>                         event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss).
>>                         When iss is needed to uniquely qualify a sub,
>>                         it can be provided without conflicting with
>>                         the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and
>>                         iss can be used for a revoked token without
>>                         conflicting with the event jti.
>>
>>                         I plan to post a new draft shortly that will
>>                         give some examples based on feedback from the
>>                         openid risc/connect discussions.
>>
>>                         We can always change again.
>>
>>
>>                         Phil
>>
>>
>>                         On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones
>>                         <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>                             No, I’m not saying that “sub” cannot
>>                             appear at the top level.  I’m saying that
>>                             “sub” will only occur at the top level if
>>                             the particular event defines that “sub”
>>                             is used in that way for that event.
>>
>>                             There are probably use cases for multiple
>>                             events per message but I doubt there are
>>                             use cases for multiple **unrelated**
>>                             events per message.  By definition,
>>                             related events that use top-level claims
>>                             would need to use them in a compatible
>>                             way.  I don’t see that as being a problem.
>>
>>                             That being said, the predominant use case
>>                             is likely to be a single event per JWT.
>>
>>                             -- Mike
>>
>>                             *From:*Marius Scurtescu
>>                             [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]
>>                             *Sent:*Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>>                             *To:*Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>                             *Cc:*Mike Jones
>>                             <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>;id-event@ietf.org
>>                             *Subject:*Re: [Id-event] Summarizing
>>                             recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
>>
>>                             Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim
>>                             can only show up at the event level and
>>                             not at the top level:
>>
>>                                 In particular, the only thing that
>>                                 the spec should say about the “sub”
>>                                 claim is that “Like all other claims
>>                                 other than ‘events’ and ‘iss’,
>>                                 whether the ‘sub’ claim is to be
>>                                 included with an event is entirely
>>                                 event-specific.
>>
>>                             A top level sub and multiple events are
>>                             incompatible IMO.
>>
>>                             Do we have a compelling reason to support
>>                             multiple events per message?
>>
>>
>>                             Marius
>>
>>                             On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil
>>                             Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>                                 I was referring to this in your email
>>
>>                                 "Define that an event name can be
>>                                 used as a top-level claim”
>>
>>                                 Is this different from the event uri?
>>
>>                                 Phil
>>
>>                                 @independentid
>>
>>                                 www.independentid.com
>>
>>                                 phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>                                     On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike
>>                                     Jones
>>                                     <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>                                     I’m glad to hear that we agree on
>>                                     keeping it as simple and
>>                                     general-purpose as possible and
>>                                     that you agree with my write-up. 
>>                                     I think we then have a good path
>>                                     forward.
>>
>>                                     I’m not sure what you mean by
>>                                     “I’m not sure that we need a
>>                                     “name”. What is your intention
>>                                     there.” The only place I used the
>>                                     word “name” was in my statement
>>                                     “Define that an event name can be
>>                                     used as a top-level claim”.  What
>>                                     I was trying to get at is was
>>                                     that if
>>                                     “http://specs.openid.net/logout”
>>                                     is used as an event name, that it
>>                                     can also be used as a claim name
>>                                     in the JWT containing information
>>                                     about the event.  (Maybe I’m not
>>                                     using the correct terminology,
>>                                     hence the unintended confusionJ.)
>>
>>                                     Thanks again,
>>
>>                                     -- Mike
>>
>>                                     *From:*Phil Hunt
>>                                     [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>                                     *Sent:*Tuesday, August 9, 2016
>>                                     12:07 PM
>>                                     *To:*Mike Jones
>>                                     <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>                                     *Cc:*id-event@ietf.org
>>                                     *Subject:*Re: [Id-event]
>>                                     Summarizing recent discussions on
>>                                     ID-Event token draft
>>
>>                                     I didn’t cover this as I didn’t
>>                                     want to confuse people with too
>>                                     many things.
>>
>>                                     But I think we agree on all of
>>                                     the below.
>>
>>                                     I’m not sure that we need a
>>                                     “name”. What is your intention there.
>>
>>                                     Phil
>>
>>                                     @independentid
>>
>>                                     www.independentid.com
>>
>>                                     phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>                                         On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM,
>>                                         Mike Jones
>>                                         <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>                                         wrote:
>>
>>                                         Thanks for writing this,
>>                                         Phil. Unfortunately, the
>>                                         summary below does not
>>                                         include my feedback, which at
>>                                         the essence, is to keep the
>>                                         ID Events data structure as
>>                                         simple and general-purpose as
>>                                         possible.  (I strongly
>>                                         believe that JWT is the
>>                                         success it is because we made
>>                                         JWT as simple and
>>                                         general-purpose as possible,
>>                                         and we should follow this
>>                                         successful example and do the
>>                                         same here.)
>>
>>                                         I believe that the ID Events
>>                                         spec needs to include these
>>                                         things, and these things only:
>>
>>                                         ·Define of the “events” claim
>>
>>                                         ·Define that an event name
>>                                         can be used as a top-level claim
>>
>>                                         ·Require that “iss” be
>>                                         included and that the JWT be
>>                                         signed by the issuer
>>
>>                                         ·Include a statement along
>>                                         the lines of “The claims to
>>                                         be included with any
>>                                         particular event are to be
>>                                         defined by the event”
>>
>>                                         And I’d stop there.
>>
>>                                         It should be entirely up to
>>                                         applications to say what
>>                                         claims are included with
>>                                         events they define and what
>>                                         their format and meanings
>>                                         are. Then the ID Events spec
>>                                         will be as general-purpose as
>>                                         possible, with it being
>>                                         natural for it to be used in
>>                                         essentially all JSON Event
>>                                         contexts.
>>
>>                                         As soon as we start putting
>>                                         restrictions on the use of
>>                                         particular claims by events,
>>                                         we’re making the ID Events
>>                                         spec less general-purpose and
>>                                         less natural to use.  In
>>                                         particular, the only thing
>>                                         that the spec should say
>>                                         about the “sub” claim is that
>>                                         “Like all other claims other
>>                                         than ‘events’ and ‘iss’,
>>                                         whether the ‘sub’ claim is to
>>                                         be included with an event is
>>                                         entirely event-specific. The
>>                                         claims to be included with
>>                                         any particular event are
>>                                         explicitly outside the scope
>>                                         of this specification.”
>>
>>                                         -- Mike
>>
>>                                         *From:*Id-event
>>                                         [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org]*On
>>                                         Behalf Of*Phil Hunt
>>                                         *Sent:*Tuesday, August 9,
>>                                         2016 10:19 AM
>>                                         *To:*id-event@ietf.org
>>                                         *Subject:*[Id-event]
>>                                         Summarizing recent
>>                                         discussions on ID-Event token
>>                                         draft
>>
>>                                         I thought I would update the
>>                                         list on some discussions that
>>                                         have been happening over in
>>                                         the OpenID Connect and RISC
>>                                         working groups conference calls.
>>
>>                                         These discussions have been
>>                                         about the core spec and the
>>                                         role of “top-level”
>>                                         attributes vs. event
>>                                         “extension” attributes.
>>
>>                                         See:https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>
>>                                         In particular should “sub” be
>>                                         used in the top level to
>>                                         “point” to the subject (in
>>                                         the broader english sense) of
>>                                         the event, or should it be
>>                                         constrained to the SAML/ID
>>                                         Token definition which is the
>>                                         authenticated user.
>>
>>                                         Taken in the narrower
>>                                         definition, it is important
>>                                         to observe that in an ID
>>                                         Token, “sub” and “iss” go
>>                                         together.  The issuer
>>                                         provides the context for the
>>                                         authenticated subject
>>                                         identifier. The problem with
>>                                         events, is that it might not
>>                                         be the AS (or OP) which is
>>                                         issuing the event.
>>
>>                                         To summarize a fair amount of
>>                                         discussion, the feeling seems
>>                                         to be the following:
>>
>>                                         *  The Event Token top level
>>                                         attributes should be fairly
>>                                         limited and not include the
>>                                         sub attribute.
>>
>>                                         *  For events that are about
>>                                         a user, the relevant event
>>                                         specification may include a
>>                                         “sub” attribute within the
>>                                         event’s sub-object and not in
>>                                         the top-level. Further that
>>                                         sub-object can also include
>>                                         the issuer of the user.
>>
>>                                         * The top-level “iss” shall
>>                                         mean the issuer of the event
>>                                         where the state change occurred.
>>
>>                                         *  “sub” should not be
>>                                         present in the top level
>>                                         structure. Also, “events”
>>                                         must also be present.
>>
>>                                         Here would be a new example
>>                                         logout:
>>
>>                                         {
>>
>>                                            <— top level is about the event itself ->
>>
>>                                            "iss":
>>                                         "https://server.example.com",
>>
>>                                           "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>
>>                                           "jti":
>>                                         "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>                                           "iat": 1458668180,
>>
>>                                           "exp": 1458668580,
>>
>>                                           "events": [
>>
>>                                            
>>                                         "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>
>>                                           ],
>>
>>                                            "https://specs.openid.net/logout":
>>                                         {
>>
>>                                             <- This level is defined
>>                                         entirely by the event URI->
>>
>>                                             "iss":
>>                                         "https://oidc.example.com",
>>
>>                                             “jti":
>>                                         "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02”,
>>
>>                                             "sub": "248289761001”,
>>
>>                                             “exp”: <ID token expiry>
>>
>>                                           }
>>
>>                                         }
>>
>>                                         In the above example note
>>                                         that the “event” object can
>>                                         have its own iss and subject
>>                                         (sub or jti) that have
>>                                         meaning within the context of
>>                                         an OpenID OP provider.  The
>>                                         issuer of the event can be
>>                                         different (the top-level) and
>>                                         represents the entity that
>>                                         signs the event (if it is
>>                                         signed).
>>
>>                                         The top-level attributes
>>                                         identify an individual event
>>                                         and are used to validate the
>>                                         event (signing etc).  Where
>>                                         as the nested object contains
>>                                         all of the data about the
>>                                         event and is defined by the
>>                                         profiling specification (e.g.
>>                                         a possible OpenID Logout
>>                                         Event spec).  In this case,
>>                                         in OpenID, logging out
>>                                         usually translates into
>>                                         revoking an ID Token. Thus
>>                                         the “jti” for the ID token
>>                                         (08a5019c...843ea02) is
>>                                         included in the Logout object.
>>
>>                                         Side note.  Regarding
>>                                         “logout”, it might be useful
>>                                         to include the expiry of the
>>                                         ID Token in case the
>>                                         subscriber has not yet
>>                                         received an ID Token. This
>>                                         would let the subscriber know
>>                                         how long it needs to keep the
>>                                         revocation information for.
>>                                         IOW…after the the ID Token is
>>                                         expired, the subscriber would
>>                                         no longer need to track the
>>                                         revocation state.
>>
>>                                         It is also good to observe
>>                                         that the “aud” at the top
>>                                         level describes the
>>                                         subscriber of the event. 
>>                                         This may also be different
>>                                         then the original audience of
>>                                         the ID Token.
>>
>>                                         So to conclude. By making
>>                                         top-level attributes strictly
>>                                         about the events own
>>                                         validation, and nested
>>                                         objects about the event, we
>>                                         avoid collisions in
>>                                         definitions such as the
>>                                         issuer of the event, vs. the
>>                                         original issuer of a security
>>                                         assertion.
>>
>>                                         I hope I’ve gotten everyone’s
>>                                         feedback correct here. Lets
>>                                         continue to discuss. I will
>>                                         revise the draft to follow
>>                                         the groups thinking here.
>>
>>                                         Phil
>>
>>                                         @independentid
>>
>>                                         www.independentid.com
>>
>>                                         phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>                                     _______________________________________________
>>                                     Id-event mailing list
>>                                     Id-event@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>                                 _______________________________________________
>>                                 Id-event mailing list
>>                                 Id-event@ietf.org
>>                                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>                             _______________________________________________
>>                             Id-event mailing list Id-event@ietf.org
>>                             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>                     _______________________________________________
>>                     Id-event mailing list Id-event@ietf.org
>>                     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>                 _______________________________________________
>>                 Id-event mailing list Id-event@ietf.org
>>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>             _______________________________________________ Id-event
>>             mailing list Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event 
>>
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    <p>+1 to this.</p>
    <p>I'd also add that the "pass through" logic I mentioned in the
      other email fits this as well. Basically, if my event *doesn't*
      have a "sub", then I assume it's the same "sub" as the root
      object. But the lower level would always shadow the upper one, in
      the context of the event itself. <br>
    </p>
    <p>This is of course an optimization, but it allows for the kind of
      structures like Mike is talking about without things getting
      overly weird for the general case.</p>
    <p> -- Justin<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/11/2016 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu
      via Openid-specs-ab wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAGdjJp+YbxT+YyR0OYfJSAmA=-kJhDmVTf2V063_NMOtx9xaxQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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      <div dir="ltr">Can we step back and look at all the requirements
        mentioned in this thread and see if we can simplify them:
        <div>1. Multiple events per SET (Security Event Token).</div>
        <div>2. SET issuer different from event issuer.</div>
        <div>3. Existing Id Token parsers must not confuse a SET for an
          Id Token.</div>
        <div>4. Nested token format.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>4 is needed by 1.</div>
        <div>4 can fulfill 3, if sub can be present only in nested
          events.<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I don't think 1 is really needed, but with 4 it comes
          really easy.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>A nested format with sub only at event level seems to meet
          all the requirements.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Allowing different event specs to define top level claims,
          like sub, is very problematic IMO because you can run into
          incompatible events. Same with requiring that all events in a
          single token must refer to the same sub. This can lead to very
          complex and buggy publisher implementations.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
        <div>
          <div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Marius</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah
          Squire <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" target="_blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <p dir="ltr">There are also rp-initiated use cases around
              suspected fraud, parallel authentication of a second
              factor, and issuance of a consent receipt.</p>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 12:27 PM,
                    "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;
                    wrote:<br type="attribution">
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div dir="auto">
                        <div>Sarah,</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Good question!</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Your use case is really the app initiated
                          logout or logout within the context of a
                          single application. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>If the app initiated front/ backchannel you
                          would be saying log user out of all sso sites
                          for that OP. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>If instead, the app issued the event to the
                          OP, it would be saying the user was logged out
                          of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may
                          or may not take action depending on its
                          policy. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>We need to explore the use case. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Talking through use cases was part of my
                          reluctance to rushing id token without forming
                          a wg. <br>
                           <br>
                          Phil</div>
                        <div><br>
                          On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire
                          &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com"
                            target="_blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt;
                          wrote:<br>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div>
                            <p dir="ltr">Are we including use cases
                              where the RP is the event issuer?</p>
                            <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016
                                11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" &lt;<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                  target="_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;
                                wrote:<br type="attribution">
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div link="blue" vlink="purple"
                                    lang="EN-US">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You’re
                                          aware that forcing “sub” to be
                                          a URI is a breaking change for
                                          most implementations, right? 
                                          This is hardly a way to
                                          encourage adoption!</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The
                                          thing you wrote below that
                                          makes me think that you’re
                                          thinking about the purpose of
                                          the ID Events spec differently
                                          than me is this: “</span>so
                                        that all event specs can use it<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">”. 
                                          The purpose of the logout
                                          event *<b>isn’t</b>* for all
                                          event specs to use it.  It’s
                                          for the logout use case to use
                                          it.  There’s no expectation
                                          that events intended for one
                                          use case will even be
                                          comprehensible in other use
                                          cases because they won’t
                                          understand the contents of the
                                          event.  We shouldn’t drive any
                                          of the design by trying to
                                          achieve that unachievable
                                          goal, since events will *<b>always</b>*
                                          contain information that’s
                                          specific to their use case.</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You’re
                                          making complexity arguments,
                                          whereas you’re also proposing
                                          more complex rules than I am
                                          (at least as I see it). 
                                          Trying to restrict the use of
                                          “sub” (or any other claims) is
                                          unneeded complexity.</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I
                                          understand that you see things
                                          differently.  I hope you’ll
                                          nonetheless think about my
                                          argument that having fewer
                                          rules about claims usage in
                                          events will make them
                                          simpler.  I passionately care
                                          about keeping this simple,
                                          which is why I’m investing my
                                          time in this discussion.  If
                                          it’s simple, it will likely
                                          get widely used.</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I’m
                                          going to sign out of the
                                          discussion for now because my
                                          wife is about to get out of
                                          surgery.  I hope you have a
                                          good day.</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                          -- Mike</span></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-8168088028950720856_m_4477680742660022366_m_-6902039538064361870__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></a></p>
                                      <span></span>
                                      <div>
                                        <div
                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                          #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                          0in 0in 0in">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                                              Phil Hunt [mailto:<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
                                                target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
                                              <br>
                                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
                                              August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
                                              <b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"
                                                target="_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Cc:</b> John Bradley
                                              &lt;<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com"
                                                target="_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;;
                                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid" target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.n<wbr>et
                                              Ab &lt;<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid"
                                                target="_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net&gt;;
                                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>;
                                              Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a
                                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                                href="mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"
                                                target="_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                              [Id-event] Summarizing
                                              recent discussions on
                                              ID-Event token draft</span></p>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Mike, </p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Speaking as
                                          editor the format you propose
                                          ONLY works if “sub” becomes a
                                          URI so that all event specs
                                          can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC
                                          becomes a special case which
                                          really kills the point of this
                                          work. It also makes the
                                          specification much much more
                                          complex. Maybe it is just me,
                                          but a complex spec generally
                                          implies complex implementation
                                          too.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">If you want
                                          sub at the top level, that
                                          would mean that the OIDC spec
                                          format would have to look
                                          like:</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">{</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "iss":
                                            "<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                style="color:purple">https://event.example.com</span></a>",</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "aud":
                                            "s6BhdRkqt3",</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "jti":
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  <span
                                              style="color:#b51a00">"sub":
                                              “<a moz-do-not-send="true">https://token.example.com/248<wbr>289761001</a>",</span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "iat":
                                            1458668180,</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "exp":
                                            1458668580,</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"> 
                                            "events": [</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">    "<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                                                style="color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>"</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  ],</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">  "sid":
"08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02"</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">}</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">Given
                                            that events are signed (or
                                            should be), <u>I will
                                              object strongly within the
                                              OIDF that the event issuer
                                              and the token issuer MUST
                                              be the same or that OIDF
                                              adopt a different format</u>.
                                            Yes having iss be the same
                                            is a nice security
                                            convenience, but it imposes
                                            the architecture restriction
                                            that it be the same server. 
                                            At scale, delivery of events
                                            may become a problem for
                                            large scale providers if
                                            they are also delivering
                                            tokens to relying parties.
                                            The restriction isn’t really
                                            justified given the crypto
                                            alternative — which was the
                                            whole point of using JWT in
                                            the first place.</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">Per
                                            Justin’s comment, it seems
                                            elegant/trivial that a
                                            logout event simply has
                                            logout at the top level and
                                            an ID Token attached (though
                                            it might convey a lot of
                                            unneeded claims).  IMO, the
                                            OIDC logout spec should only
                                            convey the ID Token JTI.  It
                                            is going to be rare that you
                                            log out all devices for a
                                            user.  To most users, it
                                            means clear SSO within this
                                            browser only!  One can argue
                                            that clearing all
                                            devices/sessions is a
                                            different event entirely. It
                                            is an account reset or
                                            lock-out action.</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">Phil</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"> </span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black">@independentid</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:black"><a moz-do-not-send="true">www.independentid.com</a></span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                    style="color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                    style="color:black"> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                style="color:black"> </span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                        </div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <div>
                                          <blockquote
                                            style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal">On
                                                Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32
                                                AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;
                                                wrote:</p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See
                                                    my previous message,
                                                    John, which was a
                                                    reply to Phil’s
                                                    message that you
                                                    also replied to,
                                                    that contained a
                                                    logout claims
                                                    example.  I’m not
                                                    proposing to
                                                    special-case the
                                                    Connect Logout
                                                    message in any way. 
                                                    The “iss” is the
                                                    event issuer.  The
                                                    other claims in the
                                                    message are those
                                                    defined by the event
                                                    to be included, just
                                                    like those for any
                                                    other event.  Yes,
                                                    the logout message
                                                    doesn’t include a
                                                    second issuer, a
                                                    second subject, an
                                                    ID Token as a claim,
                                                    or anything else
                                                    complicated like
                                                    that, because those
                                                    things aren’t needed
                                                    for the logout use
                                                    case.</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As
                                                    I’d written
                                                    previously, the ID
                                                    Events spec should
                                                    define the “events”
                                                    claim, how to use an
                                                    event name as a
                                                    claim (when needed),
                                                    and say that the
                                                    event JWT must be
                                                    signed by the
                                                    issuer, and stop
                                                    there.  Trying to
                                                    micro-manage claims
                                                    usage within an
                                                    event will only
                                                    result in the ID
                                                    Events spec being
                                                    harder to use.  If
                                                    we’d tried to
                                                    similarly
                                                    micro-manage JWT
                                                    claims usage, JWT
                                                    would likely not
                                                    have been the
                                                    success that it is.</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                                    -- Mike</span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div
                                                  style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                  #e1e1e1
                                                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                  0in 0in 0in">
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
                                                        Bradley [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span> </span><br>
                                                        <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Thursday,
                                                        August 11, 2016
                                                        12:22 PM<br>
                                                        <b>To:</b><span> </span>Phil
                                                        Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                        <b>Cc:</b><span> </span>Mike
                                                        Jones &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
                                                        <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">id-event@ietf.org</a>;
                                                        Marius Scurtescu
                                                        &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;;
                                                        <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n<wbr>et</a>
                                                        Ab &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
                                                        <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
                                                        [Id-event]
                                                        Summarizing
                                                        recent
                                                        discussions on
                                                        ID-Event token
                                                        draft</span></p>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal">Not
                                                  surprisingly a
                                                  multipurpose message
                                                  format will not be as
                                                  optimized as a single
                                                  purpose one.</p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Connect
                                                    itself doesn’t
                                                    really have a
                                                    conflict around
                                                    issuer the same
                                                    entity sending the
                                                    logout message is
                                                    always the one that
                                                    created the id_token
                                                    that it refers to.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Using
                                                    the same format as
                                                    id_token with the
                                                    same semantics to
                                                    identify the thing
                                                    to be terminated
                                                    makes sense from a
                                                    purely openID
                                                    Connect point of
                                                    view.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Oter
                                                    messages that have
                                                    different notions of
                                                    subject and are
                                                    issued by different
                                                    parties than the one
                                                    that controls the
                                                    subject cause issues
                                                    when you try and fit
                                                    them into the same
                                                    format as an
                                                    ID_Token, I grant
                                                    you that.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">It
                                                    was mentioned that
                                                    we need to
                                                    differentiate
                                                    between these events
                                                    and id_tokens. 
                                                    Mostly we need to do
                                                    that in cases where
                                                    the token might be
                                                    presented in the
                                                    front channel.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">To
                                                    do that se do have
                                                    mandatory claims for
                                                    nonce and c_hash or
                                                    at_hash as well as
                                                    the addition of
                                                    events parameter to
                                                    reduce confusion.  
                                                    Now I admit that
                                                    some people may
                                                    still get that
                                                    wrong,  and the
                                                    removal of sub from
                                                    the top level would
                                                    remove any concern. 
                                                    However Mike has a
                                                    point that adoption
                                                    may be hurt if we
                                                    change the semantics
                                                    too much.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                    don’t see
                                                    backchannel single
                                                    logout being used by
                                                    many social login
                                                    RP, it is a lot of
                                                    work to maintain
                                                    server side state.  
                                                    It is mostly an
                                                    enterprise and large
                                                    site sort of
                                                    feature.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">That
                                                    may or may not
                                                    impact on if it is
                                                    better to be simple
                                                    and aligned with
                                                    connect’s id token
                                                    or more general
                                                    purpose to fit with
                                                    other enterprise to
                                                    SaaS features like
                                                    SCIM events.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">I
                                                    think the two
                                                    directions lead to
                                                    different formats.
                                                      </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">The
                                                    compromise of
                                                    special casing
                                                    Connect SLO and
                                                    bodging the formats
                                                    together is probably
                                                    the worst option.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal">John
                                                    B.</p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                </div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <blockquote
                                                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Aug 11, 2016,
                                                          at 11:59 AM,
                                                          Phil Hunt
                                                          (IDM) &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">How
                                                          do you resolve
                                                          conflicts on
                                                          iss then?  The
                                                          top level has
                                                          to be the
                                                          issuer of the
                                                          event as the
                                                          issuer signs. </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">If
                                                          one spec can
                                                          use it all
                                                          must be able
                                                          to. I believe
                                                          you previously
                                                          objected to
                                                          that saying
                                                          sub must be as
                                                          how id tokens
                                                          define them.
                                                          But that isnt
                                                          unique and
                                                          requires iss.
                                                          Now we would
                                                          have sub at
                                                          the top with
                                                          an event
                                                          issuer at the
                                                          top and a sub
                                                          issuer in the
                                                          extension.
                                                          That seems
                                                          incredibly
                                                          complex not to
                                                          mention
                                                          awkward. </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">If
                                                          we make sub a
                                                          uri for all
                                                          then it can
                                                          work ass iss
                                                          from id token
                                                          would not be
                                                          needed. But i
                                                          can see many
                                                          objecting to
                                                          the change in
                                                          format. </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Why
                                                          not have a
                                                          logout be an
                                                          event with an
                                                          id token
                                                          attached for
                                                          example?</span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
                                                          Phil</span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                                          style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
                                                          On Aug 11,
                                                          2016, at 8:03
                                                          AM, Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The
                                                          simple rule is
                                                          that if the
                                                          particular
                                                          event calls
                                                          for the “sub”
                                                          claim to be at
                                                          the top level,
                                                          then it is. 
                                                          This is no
                                                          different from
                                                          any other
                                                          claim that an
                                                          event might
                                                          place at the
                                                          top level.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The
                                                          complexity
                                                          arises if
                                                          “sub” is
                                                          unnecessarily
special-cased.  We shouldn’t do that, because it limits the
                                                          applicability
                                                          of the
                                                          specification.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                                          -- Mike</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                          #e1e1e1
                                                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                          0in 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
                                                          Hunt (IDM) [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>]<span> </span><br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Thursday,
                                                          August 11,
                                                          2016 9:40 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span> </span>Mike
                                                          Jones &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span> </span>Marius
                                                          Scurtescu &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-ev<wbr>ent@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          Summarizing
                                                          recent
                                                          discussions on
                                                          ID-Event token
                                                          draft</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          think using
                                                          sub at the top
                                                          level leads to
                                                          complexity. Eg
                                                          Can you
                                                          provide a rule
                                                          for when top
                                                          level is used
                                                          or not by an
                                                          individual
                                                          spec?  IMO.
                                                          Top level
                                                          should always
                                                          be used the
                                                          same way by
                                                          all
                                                          implementers. </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Based
                                                          on the calls
                                                          at
                                                          risc/connect,
                                                          we discussed
                                                          that it would
                                                          be best to
                                                          move all event
                                                          specifics to
                                                          the event
                                                          object area.
                                                          This way
                                                          different
                                                          events can
                                                          have different
                                                          event
                                                          addressing (eg
                                                          sub/iss, uri,
                                                          jit/iss). When
                                                          iss is needed
                                                          to uniquely
                                                          qualify a sub,
                                                          it can be
                                                          provided
                                                          without
                                                          conflicting
                                                          with the
                                                          issuer of the
                                                          event.
                                                          Similarly jti
                                                          and iss can be
                                                          used for a
                                                          revoked token
                                                          without
                                                          conflicting
                                                          with the event
                                                          jti. </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          plan to post a
                                                          new draft
                                                          shortly that
                                                          will give some
                                                          examples based
                                                          on feedback
                                                          from the
                                                          openid
                                                          risc/connect
                                                          discussions.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">We
                                                          can always
                                                          change again. </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                          Phil</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                                                          On Aug 11,
                                                          2016, at 4:54
                                                          AM, Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No,
                                                          I’m not saying
                                                          that “sub”
                                                          cannot appear
                                                          at the top
                                                          level.  I’m
                                                          saying that
                                                          “sub” will
                                                          only occur at
                                                          the top level
                                                          if the
                                                          particular
                                                          event defines
                                                          that “sub” is
                                                          used in that
                                                          way for that
                                                          event.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There
                                                          are probably
                                                          use cases for
                                                          multiple
                                                          events per
                                                          message but I
                                                          doubt there
                                                          are use cases
                                                          for multiple *<b>unrelated</b>*
                                                          events per
                                                          message.  By
                                                          definition,
                                                          related events
                                                          that use
                                                          top-level
                                                          claims would
                                                          need to use
                                                          them in a
                                                          compatible
                                                          way.  I don’t
                                                          see that as
                                                          being a
                                                          problem.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That
                                                          being said,
                                                          the
                                                          predominant
                                                          use case is
                                                          likely to be a
                                                          single event
                                                          per JWT.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                              <wbr>        
                                                          -- Mike</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Marius
                                                          Scurtescu [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>]<span><wbr> </span><br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
                                                          August 9, 2016
                                                          7:15 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span> </span>Phil
                                                          Hunt &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span> </span>Mike
                                                          Jones &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          Summarizing
                                                          recent
                                                          discussions on
                                                          ID-Event token
                                                          draft</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Mike,
                                                          are you
                                                          suggesting
                                                          that a sub
                                                          claim can only
                                                          show up at the
                                                          event level
                                                          and not at the
                                                          top level:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                          #cccccc
                                                          1.0pt;padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">In
                                                          particular,
                                                          the only thing
                                                          that the spec
                                                          should say
                                                          about the
                                                          “sub” claim is
                                                          that “Like all
                                                          other claims
                                                          other than
                                                          ‘events’ and
                                                          ‘iss’, whether
                                                          the ‘sub’
                                                          claim is to be
                                                          included with
                                                          an event is
                                                          entirely
                                                          event-specific.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </blockquote>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">A
                                                          top level sub
                                                          and multiple
                                                          events are
                                                          incompatible
                                                          IMO.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Do
                                                          we have a
                                                          compelling
                                                          reason to
                                                          support
                                                          multiple
                                                          events per
                                                          message?</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><br
                                                          clear="all">
                                                          </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Marius</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Tue, Aug 9,
                                                          2016 at 12:39
                                                          PM, Phil Hunt
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                          #cccccc
                                                          1.0pt;padding:0in
                                                          0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          was referring
                                                          to this in
                                                          your email</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">"<span
style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
                                                          that an event
                                                          name can be
                                                          used as a
                                                          top-level
                                                          claim”</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Is
                                                          this different
                                                          from the event
                                                          uri?</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Phil</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">@independentid</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Aug 9, 2016,
                                                          at 12:12 PM,
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I’m
                                                          glad to hear
                                                          that we agree
                                                          on keeping it
                                                          as simple and
general-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I
                                                          think we then
                                                          have a good
                                                          path forward.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I’m
                                                          not sure what
                                                          you mean by “</span>I’m
                                                          not sure that
                                                          we need a
                                                          “name”. What
                                                          is your
                                                          intention
                                                          there.<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">” 
                                                          The only place
                                                          I used the
                                                          word “name”
                                                          was in my
                                                          statement
                                                          “Define that
                                                          an event name
                                                          can be used as
                                                          a top-level
                                                          claim”.  What
                                                          I was trying
                                                          to get at is
                                                          was that if “<a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">http://specs.openid.net/logou<wbr>t</span></a>”
                                                          is used as an
                                                          event name,
                                                          that it can
                                                          also be used
                                                          as a claim
                                                          name in the
                                                          JWT containing
                                                          information
                                                          about the
                                                          event.  (Maybe
                                                          I’m not using
                                                          the correct
                                                          terminology,
                                                          hence the
                                                          unintended
                                                          confusion<span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">.)</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                                          Thanks again,</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                                          -- Mike</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
name="m_-8168088028950720856_m_4477680742660022366_m_-6902039538064361870_m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></a><span></span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                          #e1e1e1
                                                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                          0in 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
                                                          Hunt [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>]<span> </span><br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
                                                          August 9, 2016
                                                          12:07 PM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span> </span>Mike
                                                          Jones &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Cc:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
                                                          [Id-event]
                                                          Summarizing
                                                          recent
                                                          discussions on
                                                          ID-Event token
                                                          draft</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          didn’t cover
                                                          this as I
                                                          didn’t want to
                                                          confuse people
                                                          with too many
                                                          things.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">But
                                                          I think we
                                                          agree on all
                                                          of the below.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I’m
                                                          not sure that
                                                          we need a
                                                          “name”. What
                                                          is your
                                                          intention
                                                          there.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Phil</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">@independentid</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <blockquote
                                                          style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">On
                                                          Aug 9, 2016,
                                                          at 11:54 AM,
                                                          Mike Jones
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks
                                                          for writing
                                                          this, Phil. 
                                                          Unfortunately,
                                                          the summary
                                                          below does not
                                                          include my
                                                          feedback,
                                                          which at the
                                                          essence, is to
                                                          keep the ID
                                                          Events data
                                                          structure as
                                                          simple and
                                                          general-purpose
                                                          as possible.
                                                           (I strongly
                                                          believe that
                                                          JWT is the
                                                          success it is
                                                          because we
                                                          made JWT as
                                                          simple and
                                                          general-purpose
                                                          as possible,
                                                          and we should
                                                          follow this
                                                          successful
                                                          example and do
                                                          the same
                                                          here.)</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I
                                                          believe that
                                                          the ID Events
                                                          spec needs to
                                                          include these
                                                          things, and
                                                          these things
                                                          only:</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin-left:.5in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#002060">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">      <span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
                                                          of the
                                                          “events” claim</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin-left:.5in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#002060">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">      <span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define
                                                          that an event
                                                          name can be
                                                          used as a
                                                          top-level
                                                          claim</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin-left:.5in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#002060">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">      <span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Require
                                                          that “iss” be
                                                          included and
                                                          that the JWT
                                                          be signed by
                                                          the issuer</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin-left:.5in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;color:#002060">·</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">      <span> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Include
                                                          a statement
                                                          along the
                                                          lines of “The
                                                          claims to be
                                                          included with
                                                          any particular
                                                          event are to
                                                          be defined by
                                                          the event”</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And
                                                          I’d stop
                                                          there.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It
                                                          should be
                                                          entirely up to
                                                          applications
                                                          to say what
                                                          claims are
                                                          included with
                                                          events they
                                                          define and
                                                          what their
                                                          format and
                                                          meanings are. 
                                                          Then the ID
                                                          Events spec
                                                          will be as
                                                          general-purpose
                                                          as possible,
                                                          with it being
                                                          natural for it
                                                          to be used in
                                                          essentially
                                                          all JSON Event
                                                          contexts.</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As
                                                          soon as we
                                                          start putting
                                                          restrictions
                                                          on the use of
                                                          particular
                                                          claims by
                                                          events, we’re
                                                          making the ID
                                                          Events spec
                                                          less
                                                          general-purpose
                                                          and less
                                                          natural to
                                                          use.  In
                                                          particular,
                                                          the only thing
                                                          that the spec
                                                          should say
                                                          about the
                                                          “sub” claim is
                                                          that “Like all
                                                          other claims
                                                          other than
                                                          ‘events’ and
                                                          ‘iss’, whether
                                                          the ‘sub’
                                                          claim is to be
                                                          included with
                                                          an event is
                                                          entirely
                                                          event-specific. 
                                                          The claims to
                                                          be included
                                                          with any
                                                          particular
                                                          event are
                                                          explicitly
                                                          outside the
                                                          scope of this
specification.”</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">                              <wbr>                        
                                                          -- Mike</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"> </span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                          #e1e1e1
                                                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                          0in 0in 0in">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event
                                                          [<a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>]<span> </span><b>On
                                                          Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Phil
                                                          Hunt<br>
                                                          <b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
                                                          August 9, 2016
                                                          10:19 AM<br>
                                                          <b>To:</b><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
                                                          <b>Subject:</b><span> </span>[Id-event]
                                                          Summarizing
                                                          recent
                                                          discussions on
                                                          ID-Event token
                                                          draft</span></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          thought I
                                                          would update
                                                          the list on
                                                          some
                                                          discussions
                                                          that have been
                                                          happening over
                                                          in the OpenID
                                                          Connect and
                                                          RISC working
                                                          groups
                                                          conference
                                                          calls.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">These
                                                          discussions
                                                          have been
                                                          about the core
                                                          spec and the
                                                          role of
                                                          “top-level”
                                                          attributes vs.
                                                          event
                                                          “extension”
                                                          attributes. </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">See:<span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://tools.ietf.org/ht<wbr>ml/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">In
                                                          particular
                                                          should “sub”
                                                          be used in the
                                                          top level to
                                                          “point” to the
                                                          subject (in
                                                          the broader
                                                          english sense)
                                                          of the event,
                                                          or should it
                                                          be constrained
                                                          to the SAML/ID
                                                          Token
                                                          definition
                                                          which is the
                                                          authenticated
                                                          user.  </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Taken
                                                          in the
                                                          narrower
                                                          definition, it
                                                          is important
                                                          to observe
                                                          that in an ID
                                                          Token, “sub”
                                                          and “iss” go
                                                          together.  The
                                                          issuer
                                                          provides the
                                                          context for
                                                          the
                                                          authenticated
                                                          subject
                                                          identifier.
                                                          The problem
                                                          with events,
                                                          is that it
                                                          might not be
                                                          the AS (or OP)
                                                          which is
                                                          issuing the
                                                          event.  </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">To
                                                          summarize a
                                                          fair amount of
                                                          discussion,
                                                          the feeling
                                                          seems to be
                                                          the following:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">*
                                                           The Event
                                                          Token top
                                                          level
                                                          attributes
                                                          should be
                                                          fairly limited
                                                          and not
                                                          include the
                                                          sub attribute.
                                                           </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">*
                                                           For events
                                                          that are about
                                                          a user, the
                                                          relevant event
                                                          specification
                                                          may include a
                                                          “sub”
                                                          attribute
                                                          within the
                                                          event’s
                                                          sub-object and
                                                          not in the
                                                          top-level.
                                                          Further that
                                                          sub-object can
                                                          also include
                                                          the issuer of
                                                          the user.  </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">*
                                                          The top-level
                                                          “iss” shall
                                                          mean the
                                                          issuer of the
                                                          event where
                                                          the state
                                                          change
                                                          occurred.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">*
                                                           “sub” should
                                                          not be present
                                                          in the top
                                                          level
                                                          structure. 
                                                          Also, “events”
                                                          must also be
                                                          present.</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Here
                                                          would be a new
                                                          example
                                                          logout:</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <pre>{</pre>
                                                          <pre>  &lt;— top level is about the event itself -&gt;</pre>
                                                          <pre>  <span style="color:#5e30eb">"iss": "<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span></pre>
                                                          <pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span></pre>
                                                          <pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  "iat": 1458668180,</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  "exp": 1458668580,</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  "events": [</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">    "<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>"</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#5e30eb">  ],</span></pre>
<pre> <span style="color:#e63b7a"> "<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://specs.openid.net/log<wbr>out</span></a>": {</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#e63b7a">    &lt;- This level is defined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#e63b7a">    "iss": "<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span></pre>
<pre><span style="color:#e63b7a">    “jti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02”,</span></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">    "sub": "248289761001”,</span></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">    “exp”: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">  }</span></pre>
<pre><span style="font-size:12.0pt">}</span></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the above example note that the “event” object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the context of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to validate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging out usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the “jti” for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Side note.  Regarding “logout”, it might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep the revocation information for. 
 IOW…after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the “aud” at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then the original audience of the ID Token.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a security assertion.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope I’ve gotten everyone’s feedback correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinking here.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phil</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">@independentid</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">

</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">

______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true">Id-event@ietf.org</a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>


______________________________<wbr>_________________

Id-event mailing list

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target="_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/</a>l<wbr>istinfo/id-event


</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>
</div>


<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Openid-specs-ab mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab</a>
</pre>

</blockquote>
</body></html>
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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References: <14E2EF51-7123-4E91-87DD-56AEA08202C1@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB1645C699D5475DA865258110F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E7BDEC4F-5F22-45E8-A18E-2B2DDDEEE0EA@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB16458A377399DFECBA108D17F51C0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <E3D7164D-943B-482B-A0DF-7F60B6BFECAB@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpKmZVWHwGUsLRvrZ5u_APx3Nj_z-p=DNsaH8gHJMM=LTw@mail.gmail.com> <SN1PR0301MB164547C185B3ECB3AD9BDDC1F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <3F0DD3E6-46CD-4AA5-8F06-F79140F5D4BE@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164529CA9F3E68306F2F2EB2F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <F87A9C7F-7AC7-463C-AC58-92E8FC187F30@oracle.com> <56E7DF06-EE77-4FD1-BF44-15A083AC5B5A@ve7jtb.com> <SN1PR0301MB16459867074BFA03B5C401E4F51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <12274564-507F-492B-94E8-C65C6A84FDB7@oracle.com> <SN1PR0301MB164534BDE4F6485B1CAC4FACF51E0@SN1PR0301MB1645.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CAN1PkMaZcuPk96TNmSUodL9JD2KNBw1Y4XOD8ExBxjOxsM! =B0g@mail.gmail.com> <21751371-BD95-4C15-AE01-D42CF4815233@oracle.com> <CAN1PkMYOpGrJR1NHuH=Q1Zcd10h6Gn862dtDekHiUHPes=9itw@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJp+YbxT+YyR0OYfJSAmA=-kJhDmVTf2V063_NMOtx9xaxQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/WEr9GpFRN7A0e39SJBWkxyxJAHA>
Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab" <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token draft
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+1

Great discussion folks.=20

I hope to put in an example of consent that Sarah mentioned too. I think it r=
eally adds to the discussions.=20

I will publish the next draft knowing that we are not there yet.=20

But as long as we keep discussing that is a good thing!

Phil

> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wro=
te:
>=20
> Can we step back and look at all the requirements mentioned in this thread=
 and see if we can simplify them:
> 1. Multiple events per SET (Security Event Token).
> 2. SET issuer different from event issuer.
> 3. Existing Id Token parsers must not confuse a SET for an Id Token.
> 4. Nested token format.
>=20
> 4 is needed by 1.
> 4 can fulfill 3, if sub can be present only in nested events.
>=20
> I don't think 1 is really needed, but with 4 it comes really easy.
>=20
> A nested format with sub only at event level seems to meet all the require=
ments.
>=20
> Allowing different event specs to define top level claims, like sub, is ve=
ry problematic IMO because you can run into incompatible events. Same with r=
equiring that all events in a single token must refer to the same sub. This c=
an lead to very complex and buggy publisher implementations.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>=
 wrote:
>> There are also rp-initiated use cases around suspected fraud, parallel au=
thentication of a second factor, and issuance of a consent receipt.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Aug 11, 2016 12:27 PM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>> Sarah,
>>>=20
>>> Good question!
>>>=20
>>> Your use case is really the app initiated logout or logout within the co=
ntext of a single application.=20
>>>=20
>>> If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would be saying log user out=
 of all sso sites for that OP.=20
>>>=20
>>> If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be saying the u=
ser was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or may not=
 take action depending on its policy.=20
>>>=20
>>> We need to explore the use case.=20
>>>=20
>>> Talking through use cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token w=
ithout forming a wg.=20
>>> =20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com> w=
rote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issuer?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2016 11:02 AM, "Mike Jones" <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>> You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is=
 a breaking change for most implementations, right?  This is hardly a way to=
 encourage adoption!
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The thing you wrote below that makes me think that you=E2=80=99re thin=
king about the purpose of the ID Events spec differently than me is this: =E2=
=80=9Cso that all event specs can use it=E2=80=9D.  The purpose of the logou=
t event *isn=E2=80=99t* for all event specs to use it.  It=E2=80=99s for the=
 logout use case to use it.  There=E2=80=99s no expectation that events inte=
nded for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because=
 they won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.  We shouldn=E2=80=99=
t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal, since=
 events will *always* contain information that=E2=80=99s specific to their u=
se case.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> You=E2=80=99re making complexity arguments, whereas you=E2=80=99re als=
o proposing more complex rules than I am (at least as I see it).  Trying to r=
estrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D (or any other claims) is unneeded c=
omplexity.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I understand that you see things differently.  I hope you=E2=80=99ll n=
onetheless think about my argument that having fewer rules about claims usag=
e in events will make them simpler.  I passionately care about keeping this s=
imple, which is why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.  If it=
=E2=80=99s simple, it will likely get widely used.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the discussion for now because my wif=
e is about to get out of surgery.  I hope you have a good day.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net=
 Ab <openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>; id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <=
mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event tok=
en draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mike,=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.  Otherwise, OIDC be=
comes a special case which really kills the point of this work. It also make=
s the specification much much more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a compl=
ex spec generally implies complex implementation too.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If you want sub at the top level, that would mean that the OIDC spec f=
ormat would have to look like:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> {
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "iss": "https://event.example.com",
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "sub": =E2=80=9Chttps://token.example.com/248289761001",
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "events": [
>>>>>=20
>>>>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   ],
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02"
>>>>>=20
>>>>> }
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Given that events are signed (or should be), I will object strongly wi=
thin the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer MUST be the same or=
 that OIDF adopt a different format. Yes having iss be the same is a nice se=
curity convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be t=
he same server.  At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for large=
 scale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. The r=
estriction isn=E2=80=99t really justified given the crypto alternative =E2=80=
=94 which was the whole point of using JWT in the first place.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivial that a logout e=
vent simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token attached (though it m=
ight convey a lot of unneeded claims).  IMO, the OIDC logout spec should onl=
y convey the ID Token JTI.  It is going to be rare that you log out all devi=
ces for a user.  To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!=
  One can argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event enti=
rely. It is an account reset or lock-out action.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>=20
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> See my previous message, John, which was a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s mes=
sage that you also replied to, that contained a logout claims example.  I=E2=
=80=99m not proposing to special-case the Connect Logout message in any way.=
  The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is the event issuer.  The other claims in the me=
ssage are those defined by the event to be included, just like those for any=
 other event.  Yes, the logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issu=
er, a second subject, an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated l=
ike that, because those things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case=
.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the ID Events spec should define th=
e =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to use an event name as a claim (when n=
eeded), and say that the event JWT must be signed by the issuer, and stop th=
ere.  Trying to micro-manage claims usage within an event will only result i=
n the ID Events spec being harder to use.  If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarl=
y micro-manage JWT claims usage, JWT would likely not have been the success t=
hat it is.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: John Bradley [mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM
>>>>> To: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org; Mariu=
s Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net Ab <op=
enid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event tok=
en draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will not be as optimize=
d as a single purpose one.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict around issuer th=
e same entity sending the logout message is always the one that created the i=
d_token that it refers to.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Using the same format as id_token with the same semantics to identify t=
he thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID Connect point of v=
iew.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Oter messages that have different notions of subject and are issued by=
 different parties than the one that controls the subject cause issues when y=
ou try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I grant you that.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It was mentioned that we need to differentiate between these events an=
d id_tokens.  Mostly we need to do that in cases where the token might be pr=
esented in the front channel.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c_hash or at_hash=
 as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confusion.   Now I ad=
mit that some people may still get that wrong,  and the removal of sub from t=
he top level would remove any concern.  However Mike has a point that adopti=
on may be hurt if we change the semantics too much.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being used by many socia=
l login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side state.   It is mostl=
y an enterprise and large site sort of feature.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That may or may not impact on if it is better to be simple and aligned=
 with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to fit with other e=
nterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think the two directions lead to different formats.  =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodging the formats t=
ogether is probably the worst option.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> John B.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?  The top level has to be the=
 issuer of the event as the issuer signs.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believe you previously o=
bjected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define them. But that is=
nt unique and requires iss.  Now we would have sub at the top with an event i=
ssuer at the top and a sub issuer in the extension. That seems incredibly co=
mplex not to mention awkward.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass iss from id token wo=
uld not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the change in format.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Why not have a logout be an event with an id token attached for exampl=
e?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The simple rule is that if the particular event calls for the =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, then it is.  This is no different=
 from any other claim that an event might place at the top level.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is unnecessarily specia=
l-cased.  We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, because it limits the applicability o=
f the specification.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event tok=
en draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think using sub at the top level leads to complexity. Eg Can you pro=
vide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individual spec?  IMO. T=
op level should always be used the same way by all implementers.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that it would be best=
 to move all event specifics to the event object area. This way different ev=
ents can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, jit/iss). When is=
s is needed to uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflictin=
g with the issuer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revo=
ked token without conflicting with the event jti.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give some examples based o=
n feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We can always change again.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at=
 the top level.  I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occ=
ur at the top level if the particular event defines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 is used in that way for that event.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are probably use cases for multiple events per message but I dou=
bt there are use cases for multiple *unrelated* events per message.  By defi=
nition, related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a=
 compatible way.  I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That being said, the predominant use case is likely to be a single eve=
nt per JWT.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                                      -=
- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Marius Scurtescu [mailto:mscurtescu@google.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM
>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event tok=
en draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only show up at the even=
t level and not at the top level:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=
=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=
=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible IMO.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple events per message?=

>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrot=
e:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I was referring to this in your email
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "Define that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Is this different from the event uri?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>=20
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree on keeping it as simple and gen=
eral-purpose as possible and that you agree with my write-up.  I think we th=
en have a good path forward.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not sure th=
at we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is your intention there.=E2=80=9D =
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.  W=
hat I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9Chttp://specs.openid.net/l=
ogout=E2=80=9D is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim=
 name in the JWT containing information about the event.  (Maybe I=E2=80=99m=
 not using the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion J.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        Thanks again,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event tok=
en draft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want to confuse people=
 with too many things.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But I think we agree on all of the below.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. What is yo=
ur intention there.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>=20
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks for writing this, Phil.  Unfortunately, the summary below does n=
ot include my feedback, which at the essence, is to keep the ID Events data s=
tructure as simple and general-purpose as possible.  (I strongly believe tha=
t JWT is the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose=
 as possible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same h=
ere.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I believe that the ID Events spec needs to include these things, and t=
hese things only:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =C2=B7       Define of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =C2=B7       Define that an event name can be used as a top-level clai=
m
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =C2=B7       Require that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that t=
he JWT be signed by the issuer
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =C2=B7       Include a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claim=
s to be included with any particular event are to be defined by the event=E2=
=80=9D
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And I=E2=80=99d stop there.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It should be entirely up to applications to say what claims are includ=
ed with events they define and what their format and meanings are.  Then the=
 ID Events spec will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natura=
l for it to be used in essentially all JSON Event contexts.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As soon as we start putting restrictions on the use of particular clai=
ms by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Events spec less general-purpose a=
nd less natural to use.   In particular, the only thing that the spec should=
 say about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other c=
laims other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether=
 the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely=
 event-specific.  The claims to be included with any particular event are ex=
plicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phil Hu=
nt
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM
>>>>> To: id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event token d=
raft
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I thought I would update the list on some discussions that have been h=
appening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups conference calls=
.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> These discussions have been about the core spec and the role of =E2=80=
=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D attri=
butes.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in the top level to=
 =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader english sense) of th=
e event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token definition which i=
s the authenticated user. =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to observe that in a=
n ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D go together.  Th=
e issuer provides the context for the authenticated subject identifier. The p=
roblem with events, is that it might not be the AS (or OP) which is issuing t=
he event.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling seems to be the f=
ollowing:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> *  The Event Token top level attributes should be fairly limited and n=
ot include the sub attribute. =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> *  For events that are about a user, the relevant event specification m=
ay include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within the event=E2=80=99s sub-=
object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-object can also include th=
e issuer of the user. =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> * The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the issuer of the eve=
nt where the state change occurred.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> *  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present in the top level struct=
ure.  Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be present.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here would be a new example logout:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> {
>>>>>   <=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself ->
>>>>>   "iss": "https://server.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458668180,
>>>>>   "exp": 1458668580,
>>>>>   "events": [
>>>>>     "https://specs.openid.net/logout"
>>>>>   ],
>>>>>   "https://specs.openid.net/logout": {
>>>>>     <- This level is defined entirely by the event URI->
>>>>>     "iss": "https://oidc.example.com",
>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12843ea02=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>     "sub": "248289761001=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: <ID token expiry>
>>>>>   }
>>>>> }
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D object can h=
ave its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning within the contex=
t of an OpenID OP provider.  The issuer of the event can be different (the t=
op-level) and represents the entity that signs the event (if it is signed).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The top-level attributes identify an individual event and are used to v=
alidate the event (signing etc).  Where as the nested object contains all of=
 the data about the event and is defined by the profiling specification (e.g=
. a possible OpenID Logout Event spec).  In this case, in OpenID, logging ou=
t usually translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D=
 for the ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Side note.  Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, it might be useful to i=
nclude the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscriber has not yet receive=
d an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how long it needs to keep t=
he revocation information for.  IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expire=
d, the subscriber would no longer need to track the revocation state.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D at the top l=
evel describes the subscriber of the event.  This may also be different then=
 the original audience of the ID Token.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strictly about the even=
ts own validation, and nested objects about the event, we avoid collisions i=
n definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the original issuer of a s=
ecurity assertion.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedback correct here. L=
ets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow the groups thinki=
ng here.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>=20
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

--Apple-Mail-8539D404-24A6-4E4D-8860-349A51A33717
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>+1</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Great discussion folks.&nbsp;</div=
><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><sp=
an style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">I hope to put in an e=
xample of consent that Sarah mentioned too. I think it really adds to the di=
scussions.&nbsp;</span></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><span style=3D"b=
ackground-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><div id=3D"AppleM=
ailSignature">I will publish the next draft knowing that we are not there ye=
t.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailS=
ignature">But as long as we keep discussing that is a good thing!<br><br>Phi=
l</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Can we step back and lo=
ok at all the requirements mentioned in this thread and see if we can simpli=
fy them:<div>1. Multiple events per SET&nbsp;(Security Event Token).</div><d=
iv>2. SET issuer different from event issuer.</div><div>3. Existing Id Token=
 parsers must not confuse a SET for an Id Token.</div><div>4. Nested token f=
ormat.</div><div><br></div><div>4 is needed by 1.</div><div>4 can fulfill 3,=
 if sub can be present only in nested events.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I=
 don't think 1 is really needed, but with 4 it comes really easy.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>A nested format with sub only at event level seems to meet al=
l the requirements.</div><div><br></div><div>Allowing different event specs t=
o define top level claims, like sub, is very problematic IMO because you can=
 run into incompatible events. Same with requiring that all events in a sing=
le token must refer to the same sub. This can lead to very complex and buggy=
 publisher implementations.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" da=
ta-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:30 AM, Sarah Squir=
e <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" target=3D=
"_blank">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">There are also rp-initiated use cases around sus=
pected fraud, parallel authentication of a second factor, and issuance of a c=
onsent receipt.</p><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 12=
:27 PM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Sarah,</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Good question!</div><div><br></div><div>Your use case is really the app=
 initiated logout or logout within the context of a single application.&nbsp=
;</div><div><br></div><div>If the app initiated front/ backchannel you would=
 be saying log user out of all sso sites for that OP.&nbsp;</div><div><br></=
div><div>If instead, the app issued the event to the OP, it would be saying t=
he user was logged out of the app. Thus issuer is the app. The OP may or may=
 not take action depending on its policy.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>We n=
eed to explore the use case.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Talking through u=
se cases was part of my reluctance to rushing id token without forming a wg.=
&nbsp;<br>&nbsp;<br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:09 AM, Sarah S=
quire &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" target=3D"_blank">sara=
h@engageidentity.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><p dir=3D"ltr">Are we including use cases where the RP is the event issu=
er?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Aug 11, 2016 11=
:02 AM, "Mike Jones" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribut=
ion"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re aware that forcing =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be a URI is a breaking change for most implementations, r=
ight?&nbsp; This is hardly a way to encourage adoption!<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The thing you wrote below that makes me=
 think that you=E2=80=99re thinking about the purpose of the ID Events spec d=
ifferently than me is this: =E2=80=9C</span>so that all event
 specs can use it<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; The purpose of the logout ev=
ent *<b>isn=E2=80=99t</b>* for all event specs to use it.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s=
 for the logout use case to use it.&nbsp; There=E2=80=99s no expectation tha=
t events intended
 for one use case will even be comprehensible in other use cases because the=
y won=E2=80=99t understand the contents of the event.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=
=99t drive any of the design by trying to achieve that unachievable goal, si=
nce events will *<b>always</b>* contain information
 that=E2=80=99s specific to their use case.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">You=E2=80=99re making complexity argume=
nts, whereas you=E2=80=99re also proposing more complex rules than I am (at l=
east as I see it).&nbsp; Trying to restrict the use of =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 (or
 any other claims) is unneeded complexity.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I understand that you see things differ=
ently.&nbsp; I hope you=E2=80=99ll nonetheless think about my argument that h=
aving fewer rules about claims usage in events will make
 them simpler.&nbsp; I passionately care about keeping this simple, which is=
 why I=E2=80=99m investing my time in this discussion.&nbsp; If it=E2=80=99s=
 simple, it will likely get widely used.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m going to sign out of the di=
scussion for now because my wife is about to get out of surgery.&nbsp; I hop=
e you have a good day.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8168088028950720856_m_44776807426600223=
66_m_-6902039538064361870__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u=
></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Phil Hunt [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.op=
enid" target=3D"_blank">openid-specs-ab@lists.openid</a>.n<wbr>et Ab &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:openid-specs-ab@lists.openid" target=3D"_blank">openid-specs-a=
b@lists.openid</a>.<wbr>net&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions on ID-Event to=
ken draft<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Speaking as editor the format you propose ONLY works i=
f =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D becomes a URI so that all event specs can use it.&nb=
sp; Otherwise, OIDC becomes a special case which really kills the point of t=
his work. It also makes the specification much much
 more complex. Maybe it is just me, but a complex spec generally implies com=
plex implementation too.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you want sub at the top level, that would mean tha=
t the OIDC spec format would have to look like:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "iss": "<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//event.example.com</span></a>",<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30"=
,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#b51a00">"sub": =E2=80=9C=
<a>https://token.example.com/248<wbr>289761001</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "events": [<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https:=
//specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; "sid": "08a5019c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843e=
a02"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that events are signed (or should be), <u>I wil=
l object strongly within the OIDF that the event issuer and the token issuer=
 MUST be the same or that OIDF adopt a different format</u>. Yes having iss b=
e the same is a nice security
 convenience, but it imposes the architecture restriction that it be the sam=
e server.&nbsp; At scale, delivery of events may become a problem for large s=
cale providers if they are also delivering tokens to relying parties. The re=
striction isn=E2=80=99t really justified
 given the crypto alternative =E2=80=94 which was the whole point of using J=
WT in the first place.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Per Justin=E2=80=99s comment, it seems elegant/trivia=
l that a logout event simply has logout at the top level and an ID Token att=
ached (though it might convey a lot of unneeded claims).&nbsp; IMO, the OIDC=
 logout spec should only convey the ID Token
 JTI.&nbsp; It is going to be rare that you log out all devices for a user.&=
nbsp; To most users, it means clear SSO within this browser only!&nbsp; One c=
an argue that clearing all devices/sessions is a different event entirely. I=
t is an account reset or lock-out action.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>www.independentid.com<=
/a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">See my previous message, John, which wa=
s a reply to Phil=E2=80=99s message that you also replied to, that contained=
 a logout claims example.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m not proposing to special-case
 the Connect Logout message in any way.&nbsp; The =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is t=
he event issuer.&nbsp; The other claims in the message are those defined by t=
he event to be included, just like those for any other event.&nbsp; Yes, the=
 logout message doesn=E2=80=99t include a second issuer, a second subject,
 an ID Token as a claim, or anything else complicated like that, because tho=
se things aren=E2=80=99t needed for the logout use case.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As I=E2=80=99d written previously, the I=
D Events spec should define the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim, how to use a=
n event name as a claim (when needed), and say that the event JWT
 must be signed by the issuer, and stop there.&nbsp; Trying to micro-manage c=
laims usage within an event will only result in the ID Events spec being har=
der to use.&nbsp; If we=E2=80=99d tried to similarly micro-manage JWT claims=
 usage, JWT would likely not have been the success
 that it is.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">John
 Bradley [<a>mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;;
<a>id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&=
gt;;
<a>openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n<wbr>et</a> Ab &lt;<a>openid-specs-ab@lists=
.openid.<wbr>net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not surprisingly a multipurpose message format will n=
ot be as optimized as a single purpose one.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Connect itself doesn=E2=80=99t really have a conflict=
 around issuer the same entity sending the logout message is always the one t=
hat created the id_token that it refers to.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Using the same format as id_token with the same seman=
tics to identify the thing to be terminated makes sense from a purely openID=
 Connect point of view.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oter messages that have different notions of subject a=
nd are issued by different parties than the one that controls the subject ca=
use issues when you try and fit them into the same format as an ID_Token, I g=
rant you that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It was mentioned that we need to differentiate betwee=
n these events and id_tokens.&nbsp; Mostly we need to do that in cases where=
 the token might be presented in the front channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To do that se do have mandatory claims for nonce and c=
_hash or at_hash as well as the addition of events parameter to reduce confu=
sion. &nbsp; Now I admit that some people may still get that wrong, &nbsp;an=
d the removal of sub from the top level
 would remove any concern.&nbsp; However Mike has a point that adoption may b=
e hurt if we change the semantics too much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see backchannel single logout being u=
sed by many social login RP, it is a lot of work to maintain server side sta=
te. &nbsp; It is mostly an enterprise and large site sort of feature.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That may or may not impact on if it is better to be s=
imple and aligned with connect=E2=80=99s id token or more general purpose to=
 fit with other enterprise to SaaS features like SCIM events.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the two directions lead to different formats.=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The compromise of special casing Connect SLO and bodg=
ing the formats together is probably the worst option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 11, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a>=
<span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">How do you resolve conflicts on iss then?&nbsp; The t=
op level has to be the issuer of the event as the issuer signs.&nbsp;</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">If one spec can use it all must be able to. I believ=
e you previously objected to that saying sub must be as how id tokens define=
 them. But that isnt unique and requires iss.
 Now we would have sub at the top with an event issuer at the top and a sub i=
ssuer in the extension. That seems incredibly complex not to mention awkward=
.&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">If we make sub a uri for all then it can work ass is=
s from id token would not be needed. But i can see many objecting to the cha=
nge in format.&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">Why not have a logout be an event with an id token a=
ttached for example?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 8:03 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;text-align:start;w=
ord-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The simple rule is that if the particul=
ar event calls for the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim to be at the top level, t=
hen it is.&nbsp; This is no different from any other claim that
 an event might place at the top level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">The complexity arises if =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is unnecessarily special-cased.&nbsp; We shouldn=E2=80=99t do that, b=
ecause it limits the applicability of the specification.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt (IDM) [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</sp=
an></a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Thursday, August 11, 2016 9:40 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt;;<span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">id-ev<wbr>ent@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think using sub at the top level leads to complexit=
y. Eg Can you provide a rule for when top level is used or not by an individ=
ual spec?&nbsp; IMO. Top level should always be used the same way by all imp=
lementers.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on the calls at risc/connect, we discussed that=
 it would be best to move all event specifics to the event object area. This=
 way different events can have different event addressing (eg sub/iss, uri, j=
it/iss). When iss is needed to
 uniquely qualify a sub, it can be provided without conflicting with the iss=
uer of the event. Similarly jti and iss can be used for a revoked token with=
out conflicting with the event jti.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to post a new draft shortly that will give som=
e examples based on feedback from the openid risc/connect discussions.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We can always change again.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Aug 11, 2016, at 4:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">No, I=E2=80=99m not saying that =E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D cannot appear at the top level.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m saying that =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D will only occur at the top level if the particular event d=
efines that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is used in that way for that event.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">There are probably use cases for multip=
le events per message but I doubt there are use cases for multiple *<b>unrel=
ated</b>* events per message.&nbsp; By definition,
 related events that use top-level claims would need to use them in a compat=
ible way.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see that as being a problem.</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">That being said, the predominant use ca=
se is likely to be a single event per JWT.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=
- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Marius
 Scurtescu [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:mscurtescu@google.com</sp=
an></a>]<span><wbr>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 7:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;;<span><wbr>&nbsp;</span><a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike, are you suggesting that a sub claim can only sh=
ow up at the event level and not at the top level:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, the only thing that the spec should sa=
y about the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other clai=
ms other than =E2=80=98events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether th=
e =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99 claim is to be included with an event is entirely ev=
ent-specific.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A top level sub and multiple events are incompatible I=
MO.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Do we have a compelling reason to support multiple ev=
ents per message?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marius<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was referring to this in your email<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">"<span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Define that an event name can be used a=
s a top-level claim=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is this different from the event uri?<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m glad to hear that we agree o=
n keeping it as simple and general-purpose as possible and that you agree wi=
th my write-up.&nbsp; I think we then have a good path
 forward.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by =E2=
=80=9C</span>I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D. Wha=
t is your intention there.<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">=E2=80=9D&nbsp;
 The only place I used the word =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=9D was in my statement =E2=
=80=9CDefine that an event name can be used as a top-level claim=E2=80=9D.&n=
bsp; What I was trying to get at is was that if =E2=80=9C<a><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">http://specs.openid.net/logou<wbr>t</span></a>=E2=80=9D
 is used as an event name, that it can also be used as a claim name in the J=
WT containing information about the event.&nbsp; (Maybe I=E2=80=99m not usin=
g the correct terminology, hence the unintended confusion<span>&nbsp;</span>=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#002060">=
J</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#002060">.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks again,=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8168088028950720856_m_44776807426600223=
66_m_-6902039538064361870_m_-6534435573639673786__MailEndCompose"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0020=
60">&nbsp;</span></a><span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Phil
 Hunt [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a=
>]<span>&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a><span style=3D"color:purple">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Summarizing recent discussi=
ons on ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I didn=E2=80=99t cover this as I didn=E2=80=99t want t=
o confuse people with too many things.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But I think we agree on all of the below.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m not sure that we need a =E2=80=9Cname=E2=80=
=9D. What is your intention there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 9, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Thanks for writing this, Phil.&nbsp; Un=
fortunately, the summary below does not include my feedback, which at the es=
sence, is to keep the ID Events data structure as
 simple and general-purpose as possible. &nbsp;(I strongly believe that JWT i=
s the success it is because we made JWT as simple and general-purpose as pos=
sible, and we should follow this successful example and do the same here.)</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I believe that the ID Events spec needs=
 to include these things, and these things only:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Defi=
ne
 of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Defi=
ne
 that an event name can be used as a top-level claim</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Requ=
ire
 that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D be included and that the JWT be signed by the is=
suer</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Symbol;co=
lor:#002060">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#002060">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span>&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">Incl=
ude
 a statement along the lines of =E2=80=9CThe claims to be included with any p=
articular event are to be defined by the event=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">And I=E2=80=99d stop there.</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">It should be entirely up to application=
s to say what claims are included with events they define and what their for=
mat and meanings are.&nbsp; Then the ID Events spec
 will be as general-purpose as possible, with it being natural for it to be u=
sed in essentially all JSON Event contexts.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">As soon as we start putting restriction=
s on the use of particular claims by events, we=E2=80=99re making the ID Eve=
nts spec less general-purpose and less natural to use.&nbsp;
 In particular, the only thing that the spec should say about the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim is that =E2=80=9CLike all other claims other than =E2=80=98=
events=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98iss=E2=80=99, whether the =E2=80=98sub=E2=80=99=
 claim is to be included with an event is entirely event-specific.&nbsp; The=
 claims to be included with any
 particular event are explicitly outside the scope of this specification.=E2=
=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event=

 [<a><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</spa=
n></a>]<span>&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span>&nbsp;</span></b>Phil
 Hunt<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, August 9, 2016 10:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span>&nbsp;</span>[Id-event] Summarizing recent discussions o=
n ID-Event token draft</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I would update the list on some discussions=
 that have been happening over in the OpenID Connect and RISC working groups=
 conference calls.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These discussions have been about the core spec and t=
he role of =E2=80=9Ctop-level=E2=80=9D attributes vs. event =E2=80=9Cextensi=
on=E2=80=9D attributes.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See:<span>&nbsp;</span><a><span style=3D"color:purple=
">https://tools.ietf.org/ht<wbr>ml/draft-hunt-idevent-token-01</span></a><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be used in=
 the top level to =E2=80=9Cpoint=E2=80=9D to the subject (in the broader eng=
lish sense) of the event, or should it be constrained to the SAML/ID Token d=
efinition which is the authenticated user. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Taken in the narrower definition, it is important to o=
bserve that in an ID Token, =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D g=
o together.&nbsp; The issuer provides the context for the authenticated subj=
ect identifier. The problem with events, is that it might not be the
 AS (or OP) which is issuing the event. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To summarize a fair amount of discussion, the feeling=
 seems to be the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;The Event Token top level attributes should b=
e fairly limited and not include the sub attribute. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;For events that are about a user, the relevan=
t event specification may include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D attribute within t=
he event=E2=80=99s sub-object and not in the top-level. Further that sub-obj=
ect can also include the issuer of the user. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* The top-level =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D shall mean the i=
ssuer of the event where the state change occurred.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">* &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D should not be present i=
n the top level structure.&nbsp; Also, =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D must also be=
 present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here would be a new example logout:<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 top level is about the event itself -&gt;<u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">"iss": "<a><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://server.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "aud": "s6BhdRkqt3",</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd=
4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "iat": 1458668180,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "exp": 1458668580,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; "events": [</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://specs.openid.net/logo<wbr>ut</span></a>"</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#5e30eb">&nbsp; ],</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;"<a><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
ttps://specs.openid.net/log<wbr>out</span></a>": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;- This level is de=
fined entirely by the event URI-&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss": "<a><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://oidc.example.com</span></a>",</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cjti": "08a501=
9c-17e1-4977-8f42-65a12<wbr>843ea02=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub"=
: "248289761001=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D: &lt;ID token expiry&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#e63b7a">&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the above example note that the =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D object can have its own iss and subject (sub or jti) that have meaning w=
ithin the context of an OpenID OP provider.&nbsp; The issuer of the event ca=
n be different (the top-level) and represents the
 entity that signs the event (if it is signed).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The top-level attributes identify an individual event=
 and are used to validate the event (signing etc).&nbsp; Where as the nested=
 object contains all of the data about the event and is defined by the profi=
ling specification (e.g. a possible
 OpenID Logout Event spec).&nbsp; In this case, in OpenID, logging out usual=
ly translates into revoking an ID Token. Thus the =E2=80=9Cjti=E2=80=9D for t=
he ID token (08a5019c...843ea02) is included in the Logout object.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Side note.&nbsp; Regarding =E2=80=9Clogout=E2=80=9D, i=
t might be useful to include the expiry of the ID Token in case the subscrib=
er has not yet received an ID Token. This would let the subscriber know how l=
ong it needs to keep the revocation information for.&nbsp;
 IOW=E2=80=A6after the the ID Token is expired, the subscriber would no long=
er need to track the revocation state.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also good to observe that the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D at the top level describes the subscriber of the event.&nbsp; This may a=
lso be different then the original audience of the ID Token.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So to conclude. By making top-level attributes strict=
ly about the events own validation, and nested objects about the event, we a=
void collisions in definitions such as the issuer of the event, vs. the orig=
inal issuer of a security assertion.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope I=E2=80=99ve gotten everyone=E2=80=99s feedbac=
k correct here. Lets continue to discuss. I will revise the draft to follow t=
he groups thinking here.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com=
</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event<=
/span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/i=
d-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/i=
d-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br>
<a><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/i=
d-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helv=
etica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a>Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: [Id-event] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
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	charset=utf-8

This is an updated draft and contains a lot of the items from the =
discussion today.

Based on feedback from OpenID RISC and Connect WG calls, I have moved =
the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the examples to the event extension area. =
This allows each event spec to decide how they define or address a =
subject. It also avoids conflicts around =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D when the =
event issuer is not the namespace of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim.

The examples now show a consistent parsing pattern where the top level =
of the JSON structure is essentially an =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D that =
describes and validates the event from a publisher to a subscriber, and =
the nested JSON objects are the =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D for the event.

The spec has been renamed to Security Event Token as part of making the =
terminology more consistent and to reflect that some events are not =
specifically about identity but are about other related things like IP =
addresses, sessions, tokens, web resources etc.

I recognize we don=E2=80=99t yet have consensus on this draft, but =
I=E2=80=99ve gone ahead and published draft 02 so the broader community =
can compare draft 02 with draft 01 to see the differences in event =
formats.  I expect to see more changes as the discussion continues.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
> Date: August 11, 2016 at 1:25:50 PM PDT
> To: "William Denniss" <wdenniss@google.com>, "Phil Hunt" =
<phil.hunt@yahoo.com>, "Morteza Ansari" <morteza.ansari@cisco.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-hunt-idevent-token
> Revision:	02
> Title:		Security Event Token (SET)
> Document date:	2016-08-11
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		15
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines the Security Event token which may be
>   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  A Security Event Token
>   (SET) is based on the JSON Web Token and may be optionally signed
>   and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of fact that may be
>   shared by an event publisher with registered subscribers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_C47E33E0-782E-40FF-B07E-6DA04DDEC170
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">This is an updated draft and contains a lot of the items from =
the discussion today.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Based on feedback from OpenID RISC and Connect WG calls, I =
have moved the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the examples to the event =
extension area. This allows each event spec to decide how they define or =
address a subject. It also avoids conflicts around =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
when the event issuer is not the namespace of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
claim.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The examples now show a consistent parsing pattern where the =
top level of the JSON structure is essentially an =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D=
 that describes and validates the event from a publisher to a =
subscriber, and the nested JSON objects are the =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D =
for the event.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The spec has been renamed to Security Event Token as part of =
making the terminology more consistent and to reflect that some events =
are not specifically about identity but are about other related things =
like IP addresses, sessions, tokens, web resources etc.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I recognize we don=E2=80=99=
t yet have consensus on this draft, but I=E2=80=99ve gone ahead and =
published draft 02 so the broader community can compare draft 02 with =
draft 01 to see the differences in event formats. &nbsp;I expect to see =
more changes as the discussion continues.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>

<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">August 11, 2016 at 1:25:50 PM =
PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"William Denniss" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "Morteza Ansari" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:morteza.ansari@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">morteza.ansari@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A new version =
of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt<br class=3D"">has been =
successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the<br class=3D"">IETF =
repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-hunt-idevent-token<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>02<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Security Event Token (SET)<br class=3D"">Document date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2016-08-11<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>15<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.t=
xt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-0=
2.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/</a><=
br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02</a><br =
class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-02" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-02=
</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This specification defines the Security Event token which =
may be<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;distributed via a protocol such as =
HTTP. &nbsp;A Security Event Token<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(SET) is =
based on the JSON Web Token and may be optionally signed<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;and/or encrypted. &nbsp;A SET describes a statement of fact =
that may be<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;shared by an event publisher with =
registered subscribers.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of =
minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized =
version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C47E33E0-782E-40FF-B07E-6DA04DDEC170--


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Vladimir,

Cc'ing back to the id-event list.=20

I will put these in for consideration for the next draft. I have already re-=
worked some of the text based on feedback from Sarah as well. Hope to check i=
nto github later today.=20

One thing for the group to discuss:=20

Do we want?:
Option A: a single value event type attribute with an optional extensions at=
tribute to force only a single main event type per SET?

Option B: Or, stay with current approach and clarify draft text that the int=
ent is a single event with extensions (but a combo event would still be poss=
ible)?

Please respond on the id-event list.=20

Phil

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 10:30 PM, Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir@connect2id.com>=
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 16/08/16 19:39, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> Vladimir,
>>=20
>> The discussion on the id-event list has been that only a single event sho=
uld be expressed at a time.
> Thanks Phil for clarifying that a SET describes a single event. Could
> that be stated explicitly in the spec?
>=20
>=20
>> The reason for multi-event uris is to allow for extensions.  For example,=
 you could have an OIDC logout event, but you might also have an extension t=
o categorize the security event as a threat/observation/indicator (CTI Cybox=
 terms) etc.  In figure 1 there is an example of an account reset having an e=
xtension showing the number of resets.
> I see now. I think I got confused by the name of the "events" attribute.
> What if it's named "event" instead?
>=20
>> The other use case is that the same state change might infer two events f=
rom overlapping profiles.  For example an account reset in SCIM could be exp=
ressed as both a SCIM Account reset and a RISC account reset =E2=80=94 since=
 different specs may have overlapping definitions that are not quite the sam=
e.  Should a publisher publish one combined event to reflect that an event c=
an be interpreted in two ways, or should two separate events be published fo=
r the same state change?  The discussion so far has been it should be two se=
parate events because the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D is likely different.
>>=20
>> So to sum up, I think the current thought is that an event should be one m=
ain event type plus any additional extensions for a single event.
>=20
> I would like to propose the following wording in section 2.1:
>=20
> event: A multi-valued String that contains one or more URIs representing
> the types of the event. [...]
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Vladimir
>=20
> PS: The second last paragraph on p. 4 has some bits of text left over
> from a previous edit.
>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com=
 <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Aug 16, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Vladimir Dzhuvinov via Openid-specs-ab <ope=
nid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>=20
>>> The spec appears well structured. Putting "sub" into an unambiguous cont=
ext was a great idea!=20
>>>=20
>>> I have a question about the proposed format:
>>>=20
>>> Each event in the "events" array is an URI, and may be enriched with ext=
ra info / context represented as a top-level JSON object that has the event U=
RI as key. What if the issuer needs to emit multiple events with identical U=
RIs in the "events" array, and they all require an additional context?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> {
>>>     "events":[
>>>       "https://example.com/event-abc" <https://example.com/event-abc>,
>>>       "https://example.com/event-abc" <https://example.com/event-abc>
>>>     ],
>>>     "https://example.com/event-abc" <https://example.com/event-abc>:{
>>>        "xyz":5
>>>     },
>>>     "https://example.com/event-abc" <https://example.com/event-abc>:{
>>>        "xyz":10
>>>     }
>>> }
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Vladimir
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 12/08/16 00:52, Phil Hunt via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
>>>> This is an updated draft and contains a lot of the items from the discu=
ssion today.
>>>>=20
>>>> Based on feedback from OpenID RISC and Connect WG calls, I have moved t=
he =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the examples to the event extension area. This a=
llows each event spec to decide how they define or address a subject. It als=
o avoids conflicts around =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D when the event issuer is not=
 the namespace of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim.
>>>>=20
>>>> The examples now show a consistent parsing pattern where the top level o=
f the JSON structure is essentially an =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D that descr=
ibes and validates the event from a publisher to a subscriber, and the neste=
d JSON objects are the =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D for the event.
>>>>=20
>>>> The spec has been renamed to Security Event Token as part of making the=
 terminology more consistent and to reflect that some events are not specifi=
cally about identity but are about other related things like IP addresses, s=
essions, tokens, web resources etc.
>>>>=20
>>>> I recognize we don=E2=80=99t yet have consensus on this draft, but I=E2=
=80=99ve gone ahead and published draft 02 so the broader community can comp=
are draft 02 with draft 01 to see the differences in event formats.  I expec=
t to see more changes as the discussion continues.
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/> <http://www.indep=
endentid.com/> <http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
>>>>> Date: August 11, 2016 at 1:25:50 PM PDT
>>>>> To: "William Denniss" <wdenniss@google.com> <mailto:wdenniss@google.co=
m>, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com> <mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com>, "Morteza=
 Ansari" <morteza.ansari@cisco.com> <mailto:morteza.ansari@cisco.com>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-02.txt
>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
>>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Name:        draft-hunt-idevent-token
>>>>> Revision:    02
>>>>> Title:        Security Event Token (SET)
>>>>> Document date:    2016-08-11
>>>>> Group:        Individual Submission
>>>>> Pages:        15
>>>>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-ideven=
t-token-02.txt <https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-toke=
n-02.txt>
>>>>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-to=
ken/ <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/>
>>>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-0=
2 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-02>
>>>>> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent=
-token-02 <https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-02>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>  This specification defines the Security Event token which may be
>>>>>  distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  A Security Event Token
>>>>>  (SET) is based on the JSON Web Token and may be optionally signed
>>>>>  and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of fact that may be
>>>>>  shared by an event publisher with registered subscribers.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission
>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Openid-specs-ab mailing list
>>>> Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net <mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.n=
et>
>>>> http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab <http://lists.=
openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab>
>>> --=20
>>> Vladimir Dzhuvinov
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Openid-specs-ab mailing list
>>> Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net <mailto:Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.ne=
t>
>>> http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab <http://lists.o=
penid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab>
>=20
> --=20
> Vladimir Dzhuvinov :: vladimir@connect2id.com
>=20
>=20


From nobody Thu Aug 18 09:10:39 2016
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Subject: [Id-event] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
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	charset=utf-8

Draft 03 has been published.

This includes editorial clarifications to:
* Define the outer layer as a SET =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D, vs =
embedded JSON as =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D
* Clarify that only a single event should be conveyed plus optional =
extensions.
* General edits to improve readability
* Register the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim as a  JWT attribute (see =
IANA considerations)

Many thanks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant editorial =
feedback.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
> Date: August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM PDT
> To: "Michael B. Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>, "William Denniss" =
<wdenniss@google.com>, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com>, "Morteza =
Ansari" <morteza.ansari@cisco.com>, "Michael Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-hunt-idevent-token
> Revision:	03
> Title:		Security Event Token (SET)
> Document date:	2016-08-18
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		16
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-03
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines the Security Event token, which may be
>   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
>   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and may be
>   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
>   fact that may be shared by an event publisher with event =
subscribers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_8464F83E-BCE7-4B74-A205-EEDDCDEC0735
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Draft 03 has been published.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This includes editorial clarifications =
to:</div><div class=3D"">* Define the outer layer as a SET =
=E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D, vs embedded JSON as =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D<=
/div><div class=3D"">* Clarify that only a single event should be =
conveyed plus optional extensions.</div><div class=3D"">* General edits =
to improve readability</div><div class=3D"">* Register the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D claim as a &nbsp;JWT attribute (see IANA =
considerations)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Many thanks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant =
editorial feedback.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>

<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM =
PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Michael B. Jones" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@microsoft.com" class=3D"">mbj@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, =
"William Denniss" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" =
class=3D"">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, "Morteza Ansari" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:morteza.ansari@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">morteza.ansari@cisco.com</a>&gt;, "Michael Jones" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@microsoft.com" class=3D"">mbj@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt<br =
class=3D"">has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to =
the<br class=3D"">IETF repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-hunt-idevent-token<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>03<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Security Event Token (SET)<br class=3D"">Document date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2016-08-18<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>16<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.t=
xt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-0=
3.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/</a><=
br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03</a><br =
class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-03" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-03=
</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This specification defines the Security Event token, which =
may be<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;distributed via a protocol such as =
HTTP. &nbsp;The Security Event Token<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(SET) =
specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and may be<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;optionally signed and/or encrypted. &nbsp;A SET describes a =
statement of<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;fact that may be shared by an =
event publisher with event subscribers.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may take a =
couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until the =
htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8464F83E-BCE7-4B74-A205-EEDDCDEC0735--


From nobody Fri Aug 19 07:42:08 2016
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, id-event@ietf.org
References: <147153621561.27779.14649810501472804929.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <55C42D22-868C-4B6D-B027-0A9404636075@oracle.com>
From: Vladimir Dzhuvinov <vladimir@connect2id.com>
Organization: Connect2id Ltd.
Message-ID: <1aa732d5-4f97-2c58-f4ee-37947761fc95@connect2id.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 17:41:56 +0300
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Openid-specs-ab] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
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I just went through the new version, the text has a much better
structure and clarity now.

Thanks everyone!


On 18/08/16 19:10, Phil Hunt via Openid-specs-ab wrote:
> Draft 03 has been published.
>
> This includes editorial clarifications to:
> * Define the outer layer as a SET =93envelope=94, vs embedded JSON as =93=
payload=94
> * Clarify that only a single event should be conveyed plus optional ext=
ensions.
> * General edits to improve readability
> * Register the =93events=94 claim as a  JWT attribute (see IANA conside=
rations)
>
> Many thanks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant editorial=
 feedback.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
>> Date: August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM PDT
>> To: "Michael B. Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>, "William Denniss" <wdennis=
s@google.com>, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com>, "Morteza Ansari" <morte=
za.ansari@cisco.com>, "Michael Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>
>> Name:		draft-hunt-idevent-token
>> Revision:	03
>> Title:		Security Event Token (SET)
>> Document date:	2016-08-18
>> Group:		Individual Submission
>> Pages:		16
>> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-ideven=
t-token-03.txt
>> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-to=
ken/
>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-0=
3
>> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent=
-token-03
>>
>> Abstract:
>>   This specification defines the Security Event token, which may be
>>   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
>>   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and may be
>>   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
>>   fact that may be shared by an event publisher with event subscribers=
=2E
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openid-specs-ab mailing list
> Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net
> http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/openid-specs-ab

--=20
Vladimir Dzhuvinov :: vladimir@connect2id.com


--------------E4C99828B441BB83D126E6F5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252"
      http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <p>I just went through the new version, the text has a much better
      structure and clarity now.</p>
    <p>Thanks everyone!<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 18/08/16 19:10, Phil Hunt via
      Openid-specs-ab wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:55C42D22-868C-4B6D-B027-0A9404636075@oracle.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">Draft 03 has been published.

This includes editorial clarifications to:
* Define the outer layer as a SET =93envelope=94, vs embedded JSON as =93=
payload=94
* Clarify that only a single event should be conveyed plus optional exten=
sions.
* General edits to improve readability
* Register the =93events=94 claim as a  JWT attribute (see IANA considera=
tions)

Many thanks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant editorial f=
eedback.

Phil

@independentid
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://www.independentid.co=
m">www.independentid.com</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"h=
ttp://www.independentid.com/">&lt;http://www.independentid.com/&gt;</a><a=
 class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com">&lt;mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt;</a>





</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre wrap=3D"">Begin forwarded message:

From: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:internet-draft=
s@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
Date: August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM PDT
To: "Michael B. Jones" <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:=
mbj@microsoft.com">&lt;mbj@microsoft.com&gt;</a>, "William Denniss" <a cl=
ass=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com">&lt;wde=
nniss@google.com&gt;</a>, "Phil Hunt" <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com">&lt;phil.hunt@yahoo.com&gt;</a>, "Mor=
teza Ansari" <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:morteza.an=
sari@cisco.com">&lt;morteza.ansari@cisco.com&gt;</a>, "Michael Jones" <a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:mbj@microsoft.com">&lt;mbj=
@microsoft.com&gt;</a>


A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-hunt-idevent-token
Revision:	03
Title:		Security Event Token (SET)
Document date:	2016-08-18
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		16
URL:            <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt">https://www.ietf.=
org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt</a>
Status:         <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-hunt-idevent-token-03</a>
Diff:           <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-03">https://www.ietf.org/r=
fcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-idevent-token-03</a>

Abstract:
  This specification defines the Security Event token, which may be
  distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
  (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and may be
  optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
  fact that may be shared by an event publisher with event subscribers.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=3D"">

</pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Openid-specs-ab mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Openid-specs-ab@list=
s.openid.net">Openid-specs-ab@lists.openid.net</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://lists.openid.net/mailma=
n/listinfo/openid-specs-ab">http://lists.openid.net/mailman/listinfo/open=
id-specs-ab</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Vladimir Dzhuvinov :: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailt=
o:vladimir@connect2id.com">vladimir@connect2id.com</a></pre>
  </body>
</html>

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--------------ms070008030103030807080802--


From nobody Sat Aug 20 16:14:14 2016
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Subject: [Id-event] Ietf97 idevent meeting?
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We have been making a lot of progress on the core id event draft. It would b=
e good to have an official meeting.=20

Maybe the best thing would be to adopt the charter and get it going?

There are a few items more to talk through like timing issues in the draft t=
o avoid unanticipated feedback concerns (discussed in issue 1000 on openid c=
onnect).=20

Thanks

Phil=


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From: Kiran Ayyagari <kayyagari@apache.org>
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Is there any specific reason for making "events" attribute an array of
event URIs?

If not, can this be turned into an object containing <event-uri,
event-data> pairs?

Thank you.

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Draft 03 has been published.
>
> This includes editorial clarifications to:
> * Define the outer layer as a SET =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D, vs embedded=
 JSON as =E2=80=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D
> * Clarify that only a single event should be conveyed plus optional
> extensions.
> * General edits to improve readability
> * Register the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim as a  JWT attribute (see IA=
NA considerations)
>
> Many thanks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant editorial
> feedback.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt*
> *Date: *August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM PDT
> *To: *"Michael B. Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>, "William Denniss" <
> wdenniss@google.com>, "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com>, "Morteza Ansari"
> <morteza.ansari@cisco.com>, "Michael Jones" <mbj@microsoft.com>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-hunt-idevent-token
> Revision: 03
> Title: Security Event Token (SET)
> Document date: 2016-08-18
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 16
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-
> hunt-idevent-token-03.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-idevent-token=
/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-token-03
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-
> idevent-token-03
>
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines the Security Event token, which may be
>   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
>   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and may be
>   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
>   fact that may be shared by an event publisher with event subscribers.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
> Kiran Ayyagari

--001a11408c8e1cbb96053a8b7318
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Is there any specific reason for making &quot;ev=
ents&quot; attribute an array of event URIs?<br><br></div>If not, can this =
be turned into an object containing &lt;event-uri, event-data&gt; pairs?<br=
><br></div>Thank you.<br><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Draft 03 has been published.<div><br></di=
v><div>This includes editorial clarifications to:</div><div>* Define the ou=
ter layer as a SET =E2=80=9Cenvelope=E2=80=9D, vs embedded JSON as =E2=80=
=9Cpayload=E2=80=9D</div><div>* Clarify that only a single event should be =
conveyed plus optional extensions.</div><div>* General edits to improve rea=
dability</div><div>* Register the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim as a =C2=
=A0JWT attribute (see IANA considerations)</div><div><br></div><div>Many th=
anks to Mike and Sarah and who contributed significant editorial feedback.<=
/div><div><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;li=
ne-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=
=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</=
a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br></di=
v><br><br>
</div>

<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><=
div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:=
0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetic=
a,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From: </b></span><span style=3D"font=
-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D=
"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.or=
g</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,=
Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject: </b>=
</span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvet=
ica,sans-serif"><b>New Version Notification for draft-hunt-idevent-token-03=
.<wbr>txt</b><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px=
;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-syst=
em-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date:=
 </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,H=
elvetica,sans-serif">August 18, 2016 at 9:03:35 AM PDT<br></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px=
"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,s=
ans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;Michael B=
. Jones&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">mb=
j@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, &quot;William Denniss&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;P=
hil Hunt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>phil.hunt@yahoo.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Morteza Ansari&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:morteza.ansari@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">morteza.ansari@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;Michael Jones&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@microsoft.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mbj@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div><br><div><div><b=
r>A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-idevent-token-03.<wbr>txt<br>has been su=
ccessfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the<br>IETF repository.<br>=
<br>Name:<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span>draft-hunt-idevent-token<br>Revision:<span style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>03<br>Title:<span style=3D"white-space:pre-w=
rap">	</span><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Security Event To=
ken (SET)<br>Document date:<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>201=
6-08-18<br>Group:<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Individual Submission<br>Pages:<span styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span>16<br>URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-idevent=
-token-03.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.<wbr>org/internet-drafts/=
draft-<wbr>hunt-idevent-token-03.txt</a><br>Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-hunt-idevent-token/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.<wbr>ietf.org/=
doc/draft-hunt-<wbr>idevent-token/</a><br>Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-idevent-to=
ken-03" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-hunt-ideve=
nt-token-<wbr>03</a><br>Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-hunt-id=
event-token-03" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.<wbr>org/rfcdiff?url2=3D=
draft-hunt-<wbr>idevent-token-03</a><br><br>Abstract:<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0This =
specification defines the Security Event token, which may be<br> =C2=A0=C2=
=A0distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.=C2=A0 The Security Event Token<=
br> =C2=A0=C2=A0(SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT) and m=
ay be<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0optionally signed and/or encrypted.=C2=A0 A SET descr=
ibes a statement of<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0fact that may be shared by an event pub=
lisher with event subscribers.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may t=
ake a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized v=
ersion and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF Secretariat<br><br></div></=
div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>______________________________<w=
br>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div>Kiran Ayyagari<br></div></div></div></div></div>

--001a11408c8e1cbb96053a8b7318--


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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 16:28:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Ietf97 idevent meeting?
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Sounds like a good idea to me. I can't attend in person this time, but
would definitely remote in.
On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

>
> We have been making a lot of progress on the core id event draft. It would
> be good to have an official meeting.
>
> Maybe the best thing would be to adopt the charter and get it going?
>
> There are a few items more to talk through like timing issues in the draft
> to avoid unanticipated feedback concerns (discussed in issue 1000 on openid
> connect).
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil
>

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Sounds like a good idea to me. I can&#39;t attend in person this time, but =
would definitely remote in. <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><br>
We have been making a lot of progress on the core id event draft. It would =
be good to have an official meeting.<br>
<br>
Maybe the best thing would be to adopt the charter and get it going?<br>
<br>
There are a few items more to talk through like timing issues in the draft =
to avoid unanticipated feedback concerns (discussed in issue 1000 on openid=
 connect).<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
</blockquote></div>

--001a11491b54c0cb62053aab88da--


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From: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" <moransar@cisco.com>
To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Ietf97 idevent meeting?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Ietf97 idevent meeting?
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Very unlikely I will be able to make it either, but will gladly join the me=
eting remotely.

From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com<mailto:wdenniss@google.com>>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 9:28 AM
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>, "id-even=
t@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>" <id-event@ietf.org<mailto:id-event@ie=
tf.org>>
Cc: Morteza <moransar@cisco.com<mailto:moransar@cisco.com>>, Mike Jones <mi=
chael.jones@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.jones@microsoft.com>>, Marius Scur=
tescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>, Leif Johansson=
 <leifj@sunet.se<mailto:leifj@sunet.se>>
Subject: Re: Ietf97 idevent meeting?

Sounds like a good idea to me. I can't attend in person this time, but woul=
d definitely remote in.
On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:

We have been making a lot of progress on the core id event draft. It would =
be good to have an official meeting.

Maybe the best thing would be to adopt the charter and get it going?

There are a few items more to talk through like timing issues in the draft =
to avoid unanticipated feedback concerns (discussed in issue 1000 on openid=
 connect).

Thanks

Phil

--_000_D3E095D4444CDmoransarciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Very unlikely I will be able to make it either, but will gladly join t=
he meeting remotely.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>William Denniss &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday, August 22, 2016 at 9:=
28 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Morteza &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
oransar@cisco.com">moransar@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:michael.jones@microsoft.com">michael.jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, Mari=
us Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a>&gt;,
 Leif Johansson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leifj@sunet.se">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt=
;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: Ietf97 idevent meeting=
?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Sounds like a good idea to me. I can't attend in person this time, but=
 would definitely remote in.
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 4:14 PM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
We have been making a lot of progress on the core id event draft. It would =
be good to have an official meeting.<br>
<br>
Maybe the best thing would be to adopt the charter and get it going?<br>
<br>
There are a few items more to talk through like timing issues in the draft =
to avoid unanticipated feedback concerns (discussed in issue 1000 on openid=
 connect).<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D3E095D4444CDmoransarciscocom_--


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Subject: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...

A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).

There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level, =
may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a =
String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.

So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20

A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to reference =
the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general =
english language intent of subject rather than the traditional use as =
seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with =
RFC7519 (a String or URI).

This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.

For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20

This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.

B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.

This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms =
of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event =
might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.

This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID =
Token.

C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of =
SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20

This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.

This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that =
every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
  *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
  *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.

Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content type) =
header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to =
ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?

Thanks for your comments.


Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>






--Apple-Mail=_66338BCE-F110-4502-9D04-FC9817D3175A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: =
&nbsp;please add if I missed any)...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D be usable at the top level. &nbsp;The downside of this approach =
is that a SET could potentially be presented as an access or iD token =
and might initially be confused because existing code does not know it =
needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute. &nbsp;The SET =
and ID Token for all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just =
has something extra (the events claim).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC =
Logout uses it in the top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 =
defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a String or URI value. For example, in =
SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource =
URI that indicates the resource whose state has changed. &nbsp;In OAuth =
it could be defined as the token identifier of the token that has been =
revoked. &nbsp;A SET about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP =
address in sub.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so =
far): &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">A. &nbsp;Sub at Top Level:</b> &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about. &nbsp;It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect. =
&nbsp;Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or =
URI).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the =
validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. =
Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that =
for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject. &nbsp;No payloads would be needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=
=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to =
define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT =
registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just putting their =
attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the spec. =
&nbsp;However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads =
with unregistered claims. &nbsp;I point out that we switched from =
registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration. &nbsp;Hence the =
move to payload objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =
&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID =
Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that. &nbsp;However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same. &nbsp;The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</b> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional =
definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only. =
&nbsp;In order to &nbsp;avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for =
OIDC.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This has =
the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of a =
general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might be =
handled directly by existing ID Token code.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This still has the disadvantage that an =
SET could be confused for an ID Token.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level Data:</b> =
In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make =
it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at =
the top level. &nbsp;The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then =
include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should =
cause existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; * &nbsp;Development of general purpose libraries and =
tools that are used enhance protocols and systems&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; * &nbsp;Audit and threat analysis systems will be =
looking at some events historically. These will tend to merge multiple =
event feeds.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Mike Jones also suggested using the <b class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=
=80=9D</b> (content type) header attribute from JWT. &nbsp;I think most =
code today has this set to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D. =
&nbsp;I wonder what current implements would feel if we introduced a =
=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D? &nbsp;Would that =
help?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Thanks for your =
comments.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_66338BCE-F110-4502-9D04-FC9817D3175A--


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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

>
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this
> discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I want=
ed
> to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  please add if I missed
> any)...
>
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top leve=
l.  The downside
> of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an acces=
s
> or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does no=
t
> know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET=
 and ID Token for
> all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra
> (the events claim).
>
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level,
> may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a Strin=
g or URI value.
> For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a S=
CIM Resource URI
> that indicates the resource whose state has changed.  In OAuth it could b=
e
> defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.  A SE=
T
> about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.
>
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far):
>
> *A.  Sub at Top Level:*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to referenc=
e the Security
> Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general english languag=
e
> intent of subject rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or Open=
ID
> Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI)=
.
>
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the
> validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event.
> Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that
> for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.
> No payloads would be needed.
>
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profili=
ng event
> standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered
> in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just
> putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the
> spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads
> with unregistered claims.  I point out that we switched from registered
> event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  Hence the move to payload
> objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims.
>
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by
> existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and=
/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should
> actually be different and the receiver should detect that.  However in th=
e
> OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the=
 same.  The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>
> *B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:* =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by tra=
ditional
> definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.
> In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use
> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of
> a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might b=
e
> handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID
> Token.
>
> *C. No-Top-Level Data:* In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of
> SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should ca=
use existing
> relying parties to fail correctly.
>
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.
>
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that
> every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing
> in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expe=
ct general
> processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point an=
d
> very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used
> enhance protocols and systems
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events
> historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>
> Mike Jones also suggested using the *=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D* (content type=
) header
> attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to ignore or
> fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current implements would f=
eel if we
> introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would=
 that help?
>

I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different
types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Security
Event Token as an Id Token.

Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty
is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is
JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim
inside the JWT.

With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.



> Thanks for your comments.
>
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cr=
emed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>=
<br></div><div>The authors have been having a discussion with regards to us=
ing the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is importa=
nt to try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for =
the long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: =
=C2=A0please add if I missed any)...</div><div><br></div><div>A question re=
mains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top level.=C2=A0 The do=
wnside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an =
access or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code do=
es not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.=C2=
=A0 The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes are the same since a SE=
T just has something extra (the events claim).</div><div><br></div><div>The=
re is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level, may o=
ther events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a String or UR=
I value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could=
 be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose state has changed=
.=C2=A0 In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier of the token t=
hat has been revoked.=C2=A0 A SET about blacklisting an IP address might pu=
t the IP address in sub.</div><div><br></div><div>So there are three option=
s (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><=
b>A.=C2=A0 Sub at Top Level:</b> =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used=
 to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.=C2=A0 It uses =
a more general english language intent of subject rather than the tradition=
al use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.=C2=A0 Regardless it is still comp=
liant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).</div><div><br></div><div>This would t=
end to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the validation in=
formation, the type of event, and the subject of the event. Additional data=
 goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many events, =
the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.=C2=A0 No payloads =
would be needed.</div><div><br></div><div><div>For events that don=E2=80=99=
t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to define m=
ore claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT registry. P=
rofiling events can avoid registration by just putting their attributes/cla=
ims in the payload area as described in the spec.=C2=A0 However, this would=
 be inconsistent with those that use payloads with unregistered claims.=C2=
=A0 I point out that we switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoi=
d registration.=C2=A0 Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate regist=
ration for attributes/claims. =C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div>This st=
ill has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by existing code. =
There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=
=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the receiver should detect that.=
=C2=A0 However in the OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D value would be the same.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also lik=
ely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=
=9D be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.<=
/div><div><br></div><div><b>B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:</b> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth t=
okens and OIDC Connect usage only.=C2=A0 In order to =C2=A0avoid confusing,=
 all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top =
level except for OIDC.</div><div><br></div><div>This has the disadvantage t=
hat OIDC requires special handling in terms of a general use event library,=
 but on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled directly by existing=
 ID Token code.</div><div><br></div><div>This still has the disadvantage th=
at an SET could be confused for an ID Token.</div><div><br></div><div><b>C.=
 No-Top-Level Data:</b> In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of SE=
Ts as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D value at the top level.=C2=A0 The OIDC Logout Event, for example,=
 would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This=
 should cause existing relying parties to fail correctly. =C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or ac=
cess token.</div><div><br></div><div>This would have the advantage that env=
elopes contain no data, and that every SET has a payload where the data is =
found. It requires more parsing in some cases, but it is at least consisten=
t. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general processors like in SOAP for distri=
bution (much of it is point to point and very contextually driven), I perso=
nally expect to see:</div><div>=C2=A0 * =C2=A0Development of general purpos=
e libraries and tools that are used enhance protocols and systems=C2=A0</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 * =C2=A0Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at =
some events historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Mike Jones also suggested using the <b>=E2=80=9Ccty=
=E2=80=9D</b> (content type) header attribute from JWT.=C2=A0 I think most =
code today has this set to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 =
I wonder what current implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=
=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Would that help?</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it is very important to be able t=
o clearly distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being=
 able to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=C2=A0</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Reading=C2=A0RFC 7519 I don&#39;t think cty fits the bill, b=
ut I could be wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm=
 and the default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and=
 it should be a claim inside the JWT.</div><div><br></div><div>With the abo=
ve issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.</div><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div>Thanks for your comments.<di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336=
Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">www.independentid.co=
m</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019=
336Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class=3D"gmail-m_171673401282601933=
6Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br=
>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cre=
med">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary =
GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT =
would be a stretch.

I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim at =
the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.

John B.
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
>=20
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
>=20
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
>=20
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20
>=20
> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
>=20
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.
>=20
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
>=20
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>=20
> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>=20
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms =
of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event =
might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>=20
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
>=20
> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of =
SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
>=20
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
>=20
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that =
every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>=20
> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
>=20
> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
>=20
> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
>=20
> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks for your comments.
>=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>

--Apple-Mail=_7C6741E4-8D5F-41F4-BC4A-6CE6A4A647BB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things =
like a binary GIF as an example. &nbsp; I think using it for =
Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would be a stretch.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am most comfortable with A. &nbsp; I =
think that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful =
going forward to avoid misinterpretation.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.<br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at =
11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The authors have been having a =
discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the =
top level. I think it is important to try and get this discussion back =
to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I wanted to get all =
the pros and cons on the table (hint: &nbsp;please add if I missed =
any)...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So there are three =
options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">A.&nbsp; =
Sub at Top Level:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.&nbsp; It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; =
Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or =
URI).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the =
validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. =
Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that =
for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.&nbsp; No payloads would be needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=
=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to =
define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT =
registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just putting their =
attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the spec.&nbsp; =
However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads with =
unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that we switched from registered =
event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.&nbsp; Hence the move to =
payload objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =
&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID =
Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.&nbsp; However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.&nbsp; The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for =
OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid =
confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
in the top level except for OIDC.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This has the disadvantage that OIDC =
requires special handling in terms of a general use event library, but =
on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled directly by existing =
ID Token code.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused =
for an ID Token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level Data:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>In order to more =
aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory =
that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top =
level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* =
&nbsp;Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Mike Jones also suggested using =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header =
attribute from JWT.&nbsp; I think most code today has this set to ignore =
or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Would that =
help?</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think it is very important to be able to clearly =
distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able =
to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I =
don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header =
parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We =
need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside =
the JWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Thanks for your comments.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed =
cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: ID Event Token Simplification
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/-G4OcaoHdBaoV_WOS_yk3vq0do4>
Subject: [Id-event] ID Event Token Simplification
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A number of the ID Event Token contributors were discussing the ID Event To=
ken format yesterday and we came up with what seems like rough consensus on=
 a way to keep the ID Event Token spec simple enough that it's likely to be=
 accepted by the security ADs and IESG as an individual submission.  The ba=
ckground on the agreement is this:


*       JWTs containing events will contain only one or more related events=
 in a family of events, and not be a container of sets of unrelated events.

*       The primary event will be the first event in the "events" list and =
the related events will be 2nd, 3rd, etc.

*       Claims pertaining to the family events should be top-level claims. =
 These should be registered in the JWT Claims Registry unless they are priv=
ate claim names or public claim names (as defined in JWT sections 4.2 and 4=
.3).

*       Claims pertaining only to an individual event should be values with=
in a claim using the same name as the event.  These values need only be def=
ined within the event definition and need not be registered as top-level cl=
aim names.

*       It is up to each event family and individual event what claims are =
included with the event family and event.

This works well because event listeners are listening for a defined family =
of events and those only.  Any events that the listeners doesn't recognize =
will be either ignored or generate errors, depending upon the application c=
ontext.  Likewise, receiving a JWT without an "events" claim at an events l=
istener should likely generate an error as well.

We are explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern, in which a general-pu=
rpose message dispatcher was the listener.  Developers have voted with thei=
r feet in avoiding this pattern.  We will be wise to do the same.

The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn't raise any complicated=
 questions.  It should enable us to get the spec approved soon.

I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 along these lines.  Phil =
can follow up from here.

                                                       Thanks all,
                                                       -- Mike

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A number of the ID Event Token contributors were dis=
cussing the ID Event Token format yesterday and we came up with what seems =
like rough consensus on a way to keep the ID Event Token spec simple enough=
 that it&#8217;s likely to be accepted by
 the security ADs and IESG as an individual submission.&nbsp; The backgroun=
d on the agreement is this:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>JWTs containing events will contain only one=
 or more related events in a family of events, and not be a container of se=
ts of unrelated events.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>The primary event will be the first event in=
 the &#8220;events&#8221; list and the related events will be 2<sup>nd</sup=
>, 3<sup>rd</sup>, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Claims pertaining to the family events shoul=
d be top-level claims.&nbsp; These should be registered in the JWT Claims R=
egistry unless they are private claim names or public claim names (as defin=
ed in JWT sections 4.2 and 4.3).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Claims pertaining only to an individual even=
t should be values within a claim using the same name as the event.&nbsp; T=
hese values need only be defined within the event definition and need not b=
e registered as top-level claim names.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roma=
n&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>It is up to each event family and individual=
 event what claims are included with the event family and event.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This works well because event listeners are listenin=
g for a defined family of events and those only.&nbsp; Any events that the =
listeners doesn&#8217;t recognize will be either ignored or generate errors=
, depending upon the application context.&nbsp; Likewise,
 receiving a JWT without an &#8220;events&#8221; claim at an events listene=
r should likely generate an error as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern=
, in which a general-purpose message dispatcher was the listener.&nbsp; Dev=
elopers have voted with their feet in avoiding this pattern.&nbsp; We will =
be wise to do the same.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn&=
#8217;t raise any complicated questions.&nbsp; It should enable us to get t=
he spec approved soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 al=
ong these lines.&nbsp; Phil can follow up from here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] ID Event Token Simplification
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Yes. This is close to option A.=20

I wanted to make sure the group could see all the options.=20

Thanks

Phil

> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> A number of the ID Event Token contributors were discussing the ID Event T=
oken format yesterday and we came up with what seems like rough consensus on=
 a way to keep the ID Event Token spec simple enough that it=E2=80=99s likel=
y to be accepted by the security ADs and IESG as an individual submission.  T=
he background on the agreement is this:
> =20
> =C2=B7       JWTs containing events will contain only one or more related e=
vents in a family of events, and not be a container of sets of unrelated eve=
nts.
> =C2=B7       The primary event will be the first event in the =E2=80=9Ceve=
nts=E2=80=9D list and the related events will be 2nd, 3rd, etc.
> =C2=B7       Claims pertaining to the family events should be top-level cl=
aims.  These should be registered in the JWT Claims Registry unless they are=
 private claim names or public claim names (as defined in JWT sections 4.2 a=
nd 4.3).
> =C2=B7       Claims pertaining only to an individual event should be value=
s within a claim using the same name as the event.  These values need only b=
e defined within the event definition and need not be registered as top-leve=
l claim names.
> =C2=B7       It is up to each event family and individual event what claim=
s are included with the event family and event.
> =20
> This works well because event listeners are listening for a defined family=
 of events and those only.  Any events that the listeners doesn=E2=80=99t re=
cognize will be either ignored or generate errors, depending upon the applic=
ation context.  Likewise,  receiving a JWT without an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 claim at an events listener should likely generate an error as well.
> =20
> We are explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern, in which a general-p=
urpose message dispatcher was the listener.  Developers have voted with thei=
r feet in avoiding this pattern.  We will be wise to do the same.
> =20
> The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn=E2=80=99t raise any co=
mplicated questions.  It should enable us to get the spec approved soon.
> =20
> I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 along these lines.  Phil=
 can follow up from here.
> =20
>                                                        Thanks all,
>                                                        -- Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes. This is close to option A.&nbsp;<=
/div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"=
>I wanted to make sure the group could see all the options.&nbsp;</div><div i=
d=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thanks<br>=
<br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A number of the ID Event Token contributors were disc=
ussing the ID Event Token format yesterday and we came up with what seems li=
ke rough consensus on a way to keep the ID Event Token spec simple enough th=
at it=E2=80=99s likely to be accepted by
 the security ADs and IESG as an individual submission.&nbsp; The background=
 on the agreement is this:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->JWTs containing events will contain only o=
ne or more related events in a family of events, and not be a container of s=
ets of unrelated events.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The primary event will be the first event=
 in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D list and the related events will be 2<sup>n=
d</sup>, 3<sup>rd</sup>, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Claims pertaining to the family events sh=
ould be top-level claims.&nbsp; These should be registered in the JWT Claims=
 Registry unless they are private claim names or public claim names (as defi=
ned in JWT sections 4.2 and 4.3).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Claims pertaining only to an individual e=
vent should be values within a claim using the same name as the event.&nbsp;=
 These values need only be defined within the event definition and need not b=
e registered as top-level claim names.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1=
 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span sty=
le=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman=
&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->It is up to each event family and individ=
ual event what claims are included with the event family and event.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This works well because event listeners are listening=
 for a defined family of events and those only.&nbsp; Any events that the li=
steners doesn=E2=80=99t recognize will be either ignored or generate errors,=
 depending upon the application context.&nbsp; Likewise,
 receiving a JWT without an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim at an events list=
ener should likely generate an error as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern,=
 in which a general-purpose message dispatcher was the listener.&nbsp; Devel=
opers have voted with their feet in avoiding this pattern.&nbsp; We will be w=
ise to do the same.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn=E2=
=80=99t raise any complicated questions.&nbsp; It should enable us to get th=
e spec approved soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 alo=
ng these lines.&nbsp; Phil can follow up from here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>


</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body><=
/html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: id-event@ietf.org, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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John,

Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes =
a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?  Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from =
7519:

The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE>] is used
   by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
   this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
   when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
   data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
   this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
   might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
   media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
   always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
   legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.


What is concerning is the line that says:=20
It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.

If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at least it is =
more definitive.

If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D =
be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is one more distinguishing item. =20

Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would =
assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>=20
> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a =
binary GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes =
of JWT would be a stretch.
>=20
> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.
>=20
> John B.
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
>>=20
>> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
>>=20
>> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
>>=20
>> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20=

>>=20
>> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
>>=20
>> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.
>>=20
>> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
>>=20
>> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>>=20
>> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>>=20
>> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in =
terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout =
Event might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>>=20
>> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
>>=20
>> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion =
of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
>>=20
>> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
>>=20
>> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and =
that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
>>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>>=20
>> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
>>=20
>> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
>>=20
>> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
>>=20
>> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--Apple-Mail=_6467962D-055F-4ECD-92F2-969DDC11EE63
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">John,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Did =
you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes a =
registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =
=E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D? &nbsp;Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience =
from 7519:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">The "typ" (type) Header =
Parameter defined by [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" class=3D"">JWS</a>] and [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" class=3D"">JWE</a>] is used
   by JWT applications to declare the media type [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" =
class=3D"">IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of
   this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
   when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
   data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
   this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
   might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
   media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
   always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
   legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is =
OPTIONAL.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is concerning is =
the line that says:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">It will typically not be used by =
applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  <b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any processing of this =
parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If it is typically =
ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D =
may not help much initially. But at least it is more =
definitive.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;It is one more distinguishing item. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header). &nbsp;Normally this should not be possible as I =
would assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST =
back-channel.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">The idea for =
cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF as an =
example. &nbsp; I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT =
would be a stretch.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
am most comfortable with A. &nbsp; I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">John B.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at =
11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The authors have been having a =
discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the =
top level. I think it is important to try and get this discussion back =
to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I wanted to get all =
the pros and cons on the table (hint: &nbsp;please add if I missed =
any)...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So there are three =
options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">A.&nbsp; =
Sub at Top Level:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.&nbsp; It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; =
Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or =
URI).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the =
validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. =
Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that =
for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.&nbsp; No payloads would be needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=
=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to =
define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT =
registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just putting their =
attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the spec.&nbsp; =
However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads with =
unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that we switched from registered =
event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.&nbsp; Hence the move to =
payload objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =
&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID =
Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.&nbsp; However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.&nbsp; The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for =
OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid =
confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
in the top level except for OIDC.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This has the disadvantage that OIDC =
requires special handling in terms of a general use event library, but =
on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled directly by existing =
ID Token code.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused =
for an ID Token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level Data:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>In order to more =
aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory =
that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top =
level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* =
&nbsp;Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Mike Jones also suggested using =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header =
attribute from JWT.&nbsp; I think most code today has this set to ignore =
or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Would that =
help?</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think it is very important to be able to clearly =
distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able =
to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I =
don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header =
parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We =
need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside =
the JWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Thanks for your comments.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed =
cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:24:11 -0300
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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I was saying that cty was wrong for this. =20

If you look at the definition of typ in JWS =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13>  you can see that it is =
really intended to be the media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is =
omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT.     Setting it to SET =
seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I was recommending considering a JWT =
top level claim in the JWT registry.

John B.


> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>=20
> John,
>=20
> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that =
becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT =
header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?  Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience =
from 7519:
>=20
> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE>] is used
>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an =
application
>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can =
use
>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects =
that
>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications =
when
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that =
"JWT"
>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
>=20
>=20
> What is concerning is the line that says:=20
> It will typically not be used by applications when
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
>=20
> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at least it is =
more definitive.
>=20
> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D =
be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is one more distinguishing item. =20
>=20
> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would =
assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a =
binary GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes =
of JWT would be a stretch.
>>=20
>> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.
>>=20
>> John B.
>>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
>>>=20
>>> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
>>>=20
>>> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
>>>=20
>>> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20=

>>>=20
>>> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
>>>=20
>>> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope =
carries the validation information, the type of event, and the subject =
of the event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this =
style, is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type =
and the subject.  No payloads would be needed.
>>>=20
>>> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
>>>=20
>>> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>>>=20
>>> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>>>=20
>>> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in =
terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout =
Event might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>>>=20
>>> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
>>>=20
>>> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion =
of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
>>>=20
>>> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
>>>=20
>>> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and =
that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>>>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are =
used enhance protocols and systems=20
>>>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some =
events historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>>>=20
>>> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
>>>=20
>>> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
>>>=20
>>> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
>>>=20
>>> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I was saying that cty was wrong for this. &nbsp;<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you look at the =
definition of typ in JWS&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13</a>&nbsp; you can =
see that it is really intended to be the media type of the complete =
JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT. &nbsp; =
&nbsp; Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT. &nbsp; I was =
recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT =
registry.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John =
B.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">John,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Did you mean adding a =
=E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes a registered JWT =
claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D=
? &nbsp;Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by =
[<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" =
title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" class=3D"">JWS</a>] and =
[<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" =
title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" class=3D"">JWE</a>] is =
used
   by JWT applications to declare the media type [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" =
class=3D"">IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of
   this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
   when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
   data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
   this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
   might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
   media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
   always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
   legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is =
OPTIONAL.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is concerning is =
the line that says:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">It will typically not be used by =
applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  <b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any processing of this =
parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If it is typically =
ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D =
may not help much initially. But at least it is more =
definitive.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;It is one more distinguishing item. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header). &nbsp;Normally this should not be possible as I =
would assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST =
back-channel.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">The idea for =
cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF as an =
example. &nbsp; I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT =
would be a stretch.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
am most comfortable with A. &nbsp; I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">John B.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius =
Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at =
11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The authors have been having a =
discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the =
top level. I think it is important to try and get this discussion back =
to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I wanted to get all =
the pros and cons on the table (hint: &nbsp;please add if I missed =
any)...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So there are three =
options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">A.&nbsp; =
Sub at Top Level:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.&nbsp; It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; =
Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or =
URI).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the =
validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. =
Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that =
for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.&nbsp; No payloads would be needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=
=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to =
define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT =
registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just putting their =
attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the spec.&nbsp; =
However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads with =
unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that we switched from registered =
event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.&nbsp; Hence the move to =
payload objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =
&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID =
Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.&nbsp; However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.&nbsp; The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for =
OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid =
confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
in the top level except for OIDC.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This has the disadvantage that OIDC =
requires special handling in terms of a general use event library, but =
on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled directly by existing =
ID Token code.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused =
for an ID Token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level Data:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>In order to more =
aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory =
that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top =
level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* =
&nbsp;Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Mike Jones also suggested using =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header =
attribute from JWT.&nbsp; I think most code today has this set to ignore =
or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Would that =
help?</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think it is very important to be able to clearly =
distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able =
to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I =
don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header =
parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We =
need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside =
the JWT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Thanks for your comments.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed =
cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
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class=3D"gmail-m_1716734012826019336Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 21:31:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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The possible rational for a JWT type claim is not for multiplexing =
multiple types in the same channel but to prevent having one protocol =
get the AS to sign a JWT that could be mis interpreted by another =
protocol in a different channel.   These sorts of attacks have happened =
to other things in the past.

It is true that the lack of a nonce now and token binding in the future =
would stop a Connect client from accepting a events token.  =20

The audience could also be different and that would also stop them from =
being accepted. (I am not recommending that but it is possible)

I think we have ways to deal with it for connect id_tokens.   My concern =
going forward is that there will be a lot of other protocols using JWT =
so it may be useful for SET and others to have a jwt_type claim that =
could be used to prevent cross channel attacks.   It is also possible =
for other things to mistakenly process id_tokens if audiences are =
reused.

It may stop some horrible mistake down the road, that potentially has =
nothing to do with Connect.=20

In some ways the simple thing is for clients to use district audiences =
across protocols, but that would add some complexity to logout as we all =
ready have a logical audience for the event.

John B.







> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not advocating =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D=
 for any particular use case.  I was just bringing them into the =
discussion because people were talking about type fields and some might =
not be aware of the type fields that already part of the standards.
> =20
> A general-purpose JWT type claim seems only to be useful to me in use =
cases in which multiple kinds of unrelated JWTs are valid in the same =
context (the SOAP pattern).  Again, there may be valid such use cases, =
but they don=E2=80=99t come up in events use cases, in which events =
listeners should only be listening for specific families of events and =
not arbitrary JWTs.
> =20
> To the particular point about whether an event JWT can be confused =
with an ID Token, two complementary preventions seem pertinent:
> =C2=B7       Require that any OP that issues events (such as logout =
tokens) *also* reject any purported ID Tokens that contain an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim.  This new rule needs to only be put in =
place at the time the OP starts issuing JWTs that are not ID Tokens.  =
The problem can=E2=80=99t occur before that.
> =C2=B7       Require that non-ID Tokens not contain a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=
=9D, as is already the case for logout tokens.
> =20
> Either of these would do the job.  Doing both is defense in depth.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John =
Bradley
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 1:32 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org; Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID =
Token
> =20
> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a =
binary GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes =
of JWT would be a stretch.
> =20
> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.
> =20
> John B.
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
> =20
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
> =20
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
> =20
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20
> =20
> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
> =20
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.
> =20
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
> =20
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
> =20
> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
> =20
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms =
of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event =
might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
> =20
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
> =20
> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of =
SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
> =20
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
> =20
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that =
every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
> =20
> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
> =20
> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
> =20
> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
> =20
> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Thanks for your comments.
> =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>

--Apple-Mail=_9EB8E239-4327-4F59-A91C-7C496506DB4D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">The possible rational for a JWT type claim is not for =
multiplexing multiple types in the same channel but to prevent having =
one protocol get the AS to sign a JWT that could be mis interpreted by =
another protocol in a different channel. &nbsp; These sorts of attacks =
have happened to other things in the past.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is true that the lack of a nonce now =
and token binding in the future would stop a Connect client from =
accepting a events token. &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The audience could also be different =
and that would also stop them from being accepted. (I am not =
recommending that but it is possible)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think we have ways to deal with it =
for connect id_tokens. &nbsp; My concern going forward is that there =
will be a lot of other protocols using JWT so it may be useful for SET =
and others to have a jwt_type claim that could be used to prevent cross =
channel attacks. &nbsp; It is also possible for other things to =
mistakenly process id_tokens if audiences are reused.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It may stop some =
horrible mistake down the road, that potentially has nothing to do with =
Connect.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In some ways the simple thing is for clients to use district =
audiences across protocols, but that would add some complexity to logout =
as we all ready have a logical audience for the event.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:49 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not advocating =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D=
 or =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D for any particular use case.&nbsp; I was just =
bringing them into the discussion because people were talking about type =
fields and some might not be aware of the type fields that already part =
of the standards.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">A general-purpose JWT =
type claim seems only to be useful to me in use cases in which multiple =
kinds of unrelated JWTs are valid in the same context (the SOAP =
pattern).&nbsp; Again, there may be valid such use cases, but they =
don=E2=80=99t come up in events use cases, in which events listeners =
should only be listening for specific families of events and not =
arbitrary JWTs.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">To the particular point =
about whether an event JWT can be confused with an ID Token, two =
complementary preventions seem pertinent:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that any OP that issues events (such =
as logout tokens) *<b class=3D"">also</b>* reject any purported ID =
Tokens that contain an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim.&nbsp; This new =
rule needs to only be put in place at the time the OP starts issuing =
JWTs that are not ID Tokens.&nbsp; The problem can=E2=80=99t occur =
before that.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Require that non-ID Tokens not contain a =
=E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D, as is already the case for logout tokens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Either of these would do the job.&nbsp; Doing both is defense =
in depth.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John Bradley<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, August 24, 2016 =
1:32 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Phil =
Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Discussion =
on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things =
like a binary GIF as an example. &nbsp; I think using it for =
Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would be a stretch.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I am most comfortable with A. &nbsp; I =
think that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful =
going forward to avoid misinterpretation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The authors have been =
having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this =
discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I =
wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: &nbsp;please add =
if I missed any)...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A=
 question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So there are three =
options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A.&nbsp; Sub at Top =
Level:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.&nbsp; It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; =
Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would tend to lead =
to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the validation =
information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. Additional =
data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many =
events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.&nbsp; =
No payloads would be needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok =
for profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. =
They MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.&nbsp; However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that =
we switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid =
registration.&nbsp; Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate =
registration for attributes/claims. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This still has the =
negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by existing code. There has =
been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
should actually be different and the receiver should detect that.&nbsp; =
However in the OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
value would be the same.&nbsp; The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also =
likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both =
cases.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is =
interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth =
tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid =
confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
in the top level except for OIDC.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This has the =
disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of a general =
use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled =
directly by existing ID Token code.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This still has the =
disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID Token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level =
Data:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In order to more =
aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory =
that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top =
level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Development of =
general purpose libraries and tools that are used enhance protocols and =
systems&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike Jones also =
suggested using the<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header =
attribute from JWT.&nbsp; I think most code today has this set to ignore =
or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Would that help?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different =
types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a =
Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I =
don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header =
parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We =
need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside =
the JWT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">With the above issue in =
mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks for your =
comments.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Ok.  Can we agree that a strong security consideration would be the =
appropriate remedy?

The text (not finished yet) might cover the following:

Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and SETs for =
security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in a =
channel where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care to =
evaluate:
* The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
* That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.  And where possible =
the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
are in fact different even if it is the same service entity.
* That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same =
channel and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens =
via the authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs received =
over HTTP POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscription.
* Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an =
OpenID Connect id_token.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert =
that it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the Events spec.  It would probably =
need to be its own spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99r=
e in use cases in which it=E2=80=99s useful to distinguish between =
things=E2=80=9D.
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John =
Bradley
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID =
Token
> =20
> I was saying that cty was wrong for this. =20
> =20
> If you look at the definition of typ in JWS =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13>  you can see that it is =
really intended to be the media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is =
omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT.     Setting it to SET =
seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I was recommending considering a JWT =
top level claim in the JWT registry.
> =20
> John B.
> =20
> =20
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> John,
> =20
> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that =
becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT =
header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?  Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience =
from 7519:
> =20
> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE>] is used
>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an =
application
>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can =
use
>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects =
that
>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications =
when
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that =
"JWT"
>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
> =20
> =20
> What is concerning is the line that says:=20
> It will typically not be used by applications when
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
> =20
> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at least it is =
more definitive.
> =20
> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D =
be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is one more distinguishing item. =20
> =20
> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would =
assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
> =20
> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a =
binary GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes =
of JWT would be a stretch.
> =20
> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.
> =20
> John B.
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
> =20
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
> =20
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
> =20
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20
> =20
> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
> =20
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.
> =20
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
> =20
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
> =20
> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
> =20
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms =
of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event =
might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
> =20
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
> =20
> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of =
SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
> =20
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
> =20
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that =
every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
> =20
> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
> =20
> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
> =20
> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
> =20
> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Thanks for your comments.
> =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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> =20
> =20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Ok. &nbsp;Can we agree that a strong security consideration =
would be the appropriate remedy?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The text (not finished yet) might cover the =
following:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and =
SETs for security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in =
a channel where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care =
to evaluate:</div><div class=3D"">* The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D claim</div><div class=3D"">* That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
value is correct. &nbsp;And where possible the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
and the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D are in fact different even if =
it is the same service entity.</div><div class=3D"">* That access tokens =
and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same channel and at minimum =
SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens via the authorization =
header of a resource service, versus SETs received over HTTP POST at a =
specific web URI associated with the subscription.</div><div class=3D"">* =
Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an =
OpenID Connect id_token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">A spec could create a top-level JWT type =
claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert that it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the =
Events spec.&nbsp; It would probably need to be its own spec and say =
basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in which it=E2=80=
=99s useful to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>John Bradley<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, August 24, 2016 =
2:24 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>; =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Discussion =
on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I was saying that cty was wrong for this. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If you look at the definition of typ in =
JWS&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13</a>&nbsp; you can =
see that it is really intended to be the media type of the complete =
JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT. &nbsp; =
&nbsp; Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT. &nbsp; I was =
recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=
=9D attribute (that becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type =
value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D? &nbsp;Note for =
everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">The "typ" (type) =
Header Parameter defined by [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">JWS</a>] and [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">JWE</a>] is used<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; by =
JWT applications to declare the media type [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; this =
complete JWT.&nbsp; This is intended for use by the JWT application<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; when values that are not JWTs could also be =
present in an application<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; data structure that =
can contain a JWT object; the application can use<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; this value to disambiguate among the different =
kinds of objects that<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; might be =
present.&nbsp; It will typically not be used by applications when<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; it is already known that the object is a =
JWT.&nbsp; This parameter is<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; performed by the JWT application.&nbsp; If =
present, it is RECOMMENDED that<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; its =
value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.&nbsp; While<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; media type names are not case sensitive, it is =
RECOMMENDED that "JWT"<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; always be spelled =
using uppercase characters for compatibility with<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; legacy implementations.&nbsp; Use of this Header =
Parameter is OPTIONAL.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">What is concerning is the line that says:&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">It will typically not be used by =
applications when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; it is already known =
that the object is a JWT.&nbsp; <b class=3D""><u class=3D"">This =
parameter is<o:p class=3D""></o:p></u></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ignored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any =
processing of this parameter is<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
performed by the JWT application.&nbsp; If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object =
is a JWT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If it is typically =
ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D =
may not help much initially. But at least it is more definitive.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If the group is comfortable, I am ok with =
making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;It is one =
more distinguishing item. &nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the =
security considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also =
receive JWTs, that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a =
hacker is able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access =
(e.g. in an authorization header). &nbsp;Normally this should not be =
possible as I would assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP =
POST back-channel.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The idea for cty was =
to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF as an example. =
&nbsp; I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would be a =
stretch.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I am most comfortable =
with A. &nbsp; I think that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may =
also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">John B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On =
Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The authors have been =
having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this =
discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I =
wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: &nbsp;please add =
if I missed any)...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A=
 question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So there are three =
options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A.&nbsp; Sub at Top =
Level:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.&nbsp; It uses a more general english language intent of subject =
rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; =
Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would tend to lead =
to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the validation =
information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. Additional =
data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many =
events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.&nbsp; =
No payloads would be needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok =
for profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. =
They MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.&nbsp; However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that =
we switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid =
registration.&nbsp; Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate =
registration for attributes/claims. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This still has the =
negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by existing code. There has =
been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
should actually be different and the receiver should detect that.&nbsp; =
However in the OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
value would be the same.&nbsp; The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also =
likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both =
cases.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">B. Exclusive-Use of =
Sub:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is =
interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth =
tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid =
confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
in the top level except for OIDC.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This has the =
disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of a general =
use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled =
directly by existing ID Token code.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This still has the =
disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID Token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">C. No-Top-Level =
Data:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In order to more =
aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory =
that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top =
level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would provide a =
maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This would have the =
advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET has a =
payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases, =
but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general =
processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point =
and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Development of =
general purpose libraries and tools that are used enhance protocols and =
systems&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike Jones also =
suggested using the<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header =
attribute from JWT.&nbsp; I think most code today has this set to ignore =
or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Would that help?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different =
types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a =
Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I =
don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header =
parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We =
need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside =
the JWT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">With the above issue in =
mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks for your =
comments.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
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I was saying that cty was wrong for this.

If you look at the definition of typ in JWS https://tools.ietf.org/
html/rfc7515#page-13  you can see that it is really intended to be the
media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a
compact JWT.     Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I
was recommending cosidering a JWT


On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

John,

Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes a =
registered JWT
claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?=
  Note for
everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:

The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE>] is used
   by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
   this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
   when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
   data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
   this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
   might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
   media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
   always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
   legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.



What is concerning is the line that says:

It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  *This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations*; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.


If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=
=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much
initially. But at least it is more definitive.

If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is one
more distinguishing item.

Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs,
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is able
to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an
authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would
assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com





On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:

The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF
as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would
be a stretch.

I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim at the
top level may also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretation.

John B.

On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote=
:

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

>
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this
> discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I want=
ed
> to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  please add if I missed
> any)...
>
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top leve=
l.  The downside
> of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an acces=
s
> or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does no=
t
> know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET=
 and ID Token for
> all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra
> (the events claim).
>
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level,
> may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a Strin=
g or URI value.
> For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a S=
CIM Resource URI
> that indicates the resource whose state has changed.  In OAuth it could b=
e
> defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.  A SE=
T
> about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.
>
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far):
>
> *A.  Sub at Top Level:*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to referenc=
e the Security
> Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general english languag=
e
> intent of subject rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or Open=
ID
> Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI)=
.
>
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the
> validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event.
> Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that
> for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.
> No payloads would be needed.
>
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profili=
ng event
> standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered
> in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just
> putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the
> spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads
> with unregistered claims.  I point out that we switched from registered
> event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  Hence the move to payload
> objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims.
>
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by
> existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and=
/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should
> actually be different and the receiver should detect that.  However in th=
e
> OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the=
 same.  The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>
> *B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:* =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by tra=
ditional
> definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.
> In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use
> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of
> a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might b=
e
> handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID
> Token.
>
> *C. No-Top-Level Data:* In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of
> SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should ca=
use existing
> relying parties to fail correctly.
>
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.
>
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that
> every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing
> in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expe=
ct general
> processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point an=
d
> very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used
> enhance protocols and systems
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events
> historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>
> Mike Jones also suggested using the *=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D* (content type=
) header
> attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to ignore or
> fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current implements would f=
eel if we
> introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would=
 that help?
>

I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different
types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Security
Event Token as an Id Token.

Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty
is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is
JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim
inside the JWT.

With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.



> Thanks for your comments.
>
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I was say=
ing that cty was wrong for this. =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If you look at t=
he definition of typ in JWS=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc=
7515#page-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/rfc7515#pa=
ge-13</a>=C2=A0 you can see that it is really intended to be the media type=
 of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JW=
T. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT. =C2=A0=
 I was recommending cosidering a JWT=C2=A0<br><div><br></div><div><br><div =
style=3D"direction:ltr"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2016, at =
5:59 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word">John,<div><br></div><div>Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjw=
t_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a=
 new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Note for ev=
eryone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=
=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">The &quot;typ&quot; (t=
ype) Header Parameter defined by [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf=
c7519#ref-JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" target=3D"_bl=
ank">JWS</a>] and [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" =
title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">JWE</a>] =
is used
   by JWT applications to declare the media type [<a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" target=3D"_blank">IANA.MediaType=
s</a>] of
   this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
   when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
   data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
   this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
   might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object is a JWT.  Whi=
le
   media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that &quot;JW=
T&quot;
   always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
   legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.</pre>=
<div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>What is concerning is the line tha=
t says:=C2=A0</div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px">It will typically not be used by applications when
   it is already known that the object is a JWT.  <b><u>This parameter is
   ignored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any processing of this parameter=
 is
   performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
   its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object is a JWT.</pre=
><div><br></div><div>If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Cty=
p=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at lea=
st it is more definitive.</div><div><br></div><div>If the group is comforta=
ble, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.=C2=
=A0 It is one more distinguishing item. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Reg=
ardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security considerations t=
hat if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, that appropriate c=
are be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is able to present the SET =
as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an authorization header).=C2=A0=
 Normally this should not be possible as I would assume SETs are passed via=
 something like an HTTP POST back-channel.</div><div><br></div><div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><=
span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0p=
x"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></=
div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/"=
 target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span>=
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br></div><br><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John B=
radley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve=
7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">T=
he idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF =
as an example. =C2=A0 I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT w=
ould be a stretch.<div><br></div><div>I am most comfortable with A. =C2=A0 =
I think that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful go=
ing forward to avoid misinterpretation.</div><div><br></div><div>John B.<br=
><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Sc=
urtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscu=
rtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span>=C2=A0</span>=
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span>=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>The=
 authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=80=9Cs=
ub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get =
this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I w=
anted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: =C2=A0please add if =
I missed any)...</div><div><br></div><div>A question remains should =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top level.=C2=A0 The downside of this appr=
oach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an access or iD token =
and might initially be confused because existing code does not know it need=
s to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.=C2=A0 The SET and ID T=
oken for all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something=
 extra (the events claim).</div><div><br></div><div>There is also the quest=
ion that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level, may other events use it? =
RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a String or URI value. For example=
, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource =
URI that indicates the resource whose state has changed.=C2=A0 In OAuth it =
could be defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked=
.=C2=A0 A SET about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in =
sub.</div><div><br></div><div>So there are three options (Option A seems to=
 be favoured so far): =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>A.=C2=A0 Sub at To=
p Level:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used t=
o reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.=C2=A0 It uses a =
more general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional=
 use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.=C2=A0 Regardless it is still compli=
ant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).</div><div><br></div><div>This would ten=
d to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the validation info=
rmation, the type of event, and the subject of the event. Additional data g=
oes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many events, th=
e only thing needed is the event type and the subject.=C2=A0 No payloads wo=
uld be needed.</div><div><br></div><div><div>For events that don=E2=80=99t =
want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standards to define mor=
e claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Pro=
filing events can avoid registration by just putting their attributes/claim=
s in the payload area as described in the spec.=C2=A0 However, this would b=
e inconsistent with those that use payloads with unregistered claims.=C2=A0=
 I point out that we switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid r=
egistration.=C2=A0 Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registrat=
ion for attributes/claims. =C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div>This still=
 has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by existing code. The=
re has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D should actually be different and the receiver should detect that.=C2=
=A0 However in the OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D v=
alue would be the same.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely b=
e the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be=
 used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.</div><=
div><br></div><div><b>B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>=E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved=
 for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.=C2=A0 In order to =C2=A0avoi=
d confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
 in the top level except for OIDC.</div><div><br></div><div>This has the di=
sadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of a general use ev=
ent library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might be handled directly=
 by existing ID Token code.</div><div><br></div><div>This still has the dis=
advantage that an SET could be confused for an ID Token.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><b>C. No-Top-Level Data:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>In order to more aggr=
essively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs =
may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.=C2=A0 The O=
IDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D v=
alue in the payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fai=
l correctly. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>This would provide a maximal d=
ifference form a IDToken or access token.</div><div><br></div><div>This wou=
ld have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that every SET ha=
s a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing in some cases=
, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general proc=
essors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point and very=
 contextually driven), I personally expect to see:</div><div>=C2=A0<span>=
=C2=A0</span>* =C2=A0Development of general purpose libraries and tools tha=
t are used enhance protocols and systems=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0=
</span>* =C2=A0Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some ev=
ents historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Mike Jones also suggested using the<span>=C2=A0</span><b>=
=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span>=C2=A0</span>(content type) header attribute=
 from JWT.=C2=A0 I think most code today has this set to ignore or fixed as=
 =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I wonder what current implements would feel i=
f we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?=C2=
=A0 Would that help?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it=
 is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different types of JWT=
 tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Security Event Token a=
s an Id Token.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Reading=C2=A0RFC 7519 I don&#=
39;t think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header paramet=
er used by the crypto algorithm and the default value is JWT. We need to di=
stinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside the JWT.</div><=
div><br></div><div>With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cl=
eanest solution.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div>Thanks for your comments.<div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;l=
ine-height:normal"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil<=
/div><div><br></div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.ind=
ependentid.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></d=
iv></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br></div><br><br></div><=
br></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>=
Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!=
important">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:=
normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing li=
st</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto=
:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"=
_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
2px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>____=
__________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<b=
r><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org<=
/a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D=
"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br></div><=
/blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=
</div></div>

--001a114aa7ac339386053ad831a9--


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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:46:51 -0300
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Yes,  on one of the calls we talked about it being a separate spec to
register the claim and then events could use it.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert th=
at it=E2=80=99s
> out of scope for the Events spec.  It would probably need to be its own
> spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in =
which it=E2=80=99s useful
> to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *John
> Bradley
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM
> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID
> Token
>
>
>
> I was saying that cty was wrong for this.
>
>
>
> If you look at the definition of typ in JWS https://tools.ietf.org/
> html/rfc7515#page-13  you can see that it is really intended to be the
> media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is =
a
> compact JWT.     Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I
> was recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> John,
>
>
>
> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes =
a registered JWT
> claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=
=9D?  Note for
> everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:
>
>
>
> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS <https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-J=
WE>] is used
>
>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes <https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>
>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
>
>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
>
>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
>
>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
>
>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
>
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>
>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
>
>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
>
>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
>
>
>
>
>
> What is concerning is the line that says:
>
> It will typically not be used by applications when
>
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  *This parameter is*
>
> *   ignored by JWT implementations*; any processing of this parameter is
>
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
>
>
>
> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=
=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help
> much initially. But at least it is more definitive.
>
>
>
> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be=
 =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is
> one more distinguishing item.
>
>
>
> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security
> considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs,
> that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is able
> to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an
> authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would
> assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary
> GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT
> would be a stretch.
>
>
>
> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim at
> the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretation=
.
>
>
>
> John B.
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this
> discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I want=
ed
> to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  please add if I missed
> any)...
>
>
>
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top leve=
l.  The downside
> of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an acces=
s
> or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does no=
t
> know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET=
 and ID Token for
> all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra
> (the events claim).
>
>
>
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level,
> may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a Strin=
g or URI value.
> For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a S=
CIM Resource URI
> that indicates the resource whose state has changed.  In OAuth it could b=
e
> defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.  A SE=
T
> about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.
>
>
>
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far):
>
>
>
> *A.  Sub at Top Level:*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to referenc=
e the Security
> Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general english languag=
e
> intent of subject rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or Open=
ID
> Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI)=
.
>
>
>
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the
> validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event.
> Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that
> for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.
> No payloads would be needed.
>
>
>
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profili=
ng event
> standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered
> in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just
> putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the
> spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads
> with unregistered claims.  I point out that we switched from registered
> event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  Hence the move to payload
> objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims.
>
>
>
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by
> existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and=
/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should
> actually be different and the receiver should detect that.  However in th=
e
> OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the=
 same.  The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>
>
>
> *B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:* =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by tra=
ditional
> definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.
> In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use
> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>
>
>
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of
> a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might b=
e
> handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>
>
>
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID
> Token.
>
>
>
> *C. No-Top-Level Data:* In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of
> SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should ca=
use existing
> relying parties to fail correctly.
>
>
>
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.
>
>
>
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that
> every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing
> in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expe=
ct general
> processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point an=
d
> very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:
>
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used
> enhance protocols and systems
>
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events
> historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>
>
>
> Mike Jones also suggested using the *=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D* (content type=
) header
> attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to ignore or
> fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current implements would f=
eel if we
> introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would=
 that help?
>
>
>
> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different
> types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Security
> Event Token as an Id Token.
>
>
>
> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong.
> cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default
> value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a
> claim inside the JWT.
>
>
>
> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
>
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes, =C2=A0on one of the calls we talked about it being a =
separate spec to register the claim and then events could use it.</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 =
at 6:31 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">A spec could create a top-level JWT t=
ype claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert that it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the Ev=
ents spec.=C2=A0 It would probably need to be its own spec and say
 basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in which it=E2=80=
=99s useful to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_6032567199212792256__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wb=
r>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Bradley<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@=
ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of &quot;sub&quot; and con=
fusion as ID Token<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I was saying that cty was wrong for this. =C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you look at the definition of typ in JWS=C2=A0<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/rfc7515#page-13</a>=C2=A0 you can see that it =
is really intended to be the media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is
 omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Setting it to =
SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT. =C2=A0 I was recommending considering=
 a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D att=
ribute (that becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for=
 the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Note for everyone=E2=80=99s co=
nvenience from 7519:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>The &quot;typ&quot; (type) Header Parameter defined by [<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Signature=
 (JWS)&quot;" target=3D"_blank">JWS</a>] and [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" =
target=3D"_blank">JWE</a>] is used<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 by JWT applications to declare the media type [<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" target=3D"_blank"=
>IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 this complete JWT.=C2=A0 This is intended for use by the =
JWT application<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an=
 application<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 data structure that can contain a JWT object; the applica=
tion can use<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of o=
bjects that<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 might be present.=C2=A0 It will typically not be used by =
applications when<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is already known that the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 This =
parameter is<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this pa=
rameter is<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 performed by the JWT application.=C2=A0 If present, it is=
 RECOMMENDED that<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object=
 is a JWT.=C2=A0 While<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDE=
D that &quot;JWT&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatib=
ility with<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 legacy implementations.=C2=A0 Use of this Header Paramete=
r is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is concerning is the line that says:=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>It will typically not be used by applications when<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is already known that the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 <b><u=
>This parameter is<u></u><u></u></u></b></pre>
<pre><b><u>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ignored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any process=
ing of this parameter is<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 performed by the JWT application.=C2=A0 If present, it is=
 RECOMMENDED that<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object=
 is a JWT.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9C=
typ=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at l=
east it is more definitive.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=
=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It is one more distingui=
shing item. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the=
 security considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receiv=
e JWTs, that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker i=
s able to present the SET as if it
 were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an authorization header).=C2=A0 Normall=
y this should not be possible as I would assume SETs are passed via somethi=
ng like an HTTP POST back-channel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"=
_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate t=
hings like a binary GIF as an example. =C2=A0 I think using it for Distingu=
ishing subtypes of JWT would be a stretch.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am most comfortable with A. =C2=A0 I think that ad=
ding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful going forward to =
avoid misinterpretation.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">John B.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span>=
=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span>=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">The authors have been having a discussion with reg=
ards to using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it =
is important to try and get this discussion back to the main group.
 My apologies for the long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on t=
he table (hint: =C2=A0please add if I missed any)...<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be=
 usable at the top level.=C2=A0 The downside of this approach is that a SET=
 could potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might
 initially be confused because existing code does not know it needs to look=
 for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.=C2=A0 The SET and ID Token for =
all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra (t=
he events claim).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout use=
s it in the top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events,
 the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicate=
s the resource whose state has changed.=C2=A0 In OAuth it could be defined =
as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.=C2=A0 A SET abo=
ut blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in
 sub.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">So there are three options (Option A seems to be f=
avoured so far): =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">A.=C2=A0 Sub at Top Level:</span></b><span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvet=
ica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.=
=C2=A0 It uses a more general english language intent of subject rather tha=
n the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.=C2=A0 Regardless i=
t is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String
 or URI).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where t=
he envelope carries the validation information, the type of event, and the =
subject of the event. Additional data goes in
 the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many events, the only=
 thing needed is the event type and the subject.=C2=A0 No payloads would be=
 needed.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is =
probably ok for profiling event standards to define more claims at the top =
level. They MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling
 events can avoid registration by just putting their attributes/claims in t=
he payload area as described in the spec.=C2=A0 However, this would be inco=
nsistent with those that use payloads with unregistered claims.=C2=A0 I poi=
nt out that we switched from registered event
 URNs to URIs to avoid registration.=C2=A0 Hence the move to payload object=
s to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This still has the negatives of being confusable a=
s an ID Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ci=
ss=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and t=
he
 receiver should detect that.=C2=A0 However in the OIDC Logout case, by des=
ign, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9C=
aud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that a=
n alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the audience may be the s=
ame entity in both
 cases.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:</span></b><span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica=
&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
 is interpreted to by traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth toke=
ns and OIDC Connect usage only.=C2=A0 In order to =C2=A0avoid confusing, al=
l profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top lev=
el except for OIDC.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires speci=
al handling in terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand =
a Logout Event might be handled directly by existing
 ID Token code.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could =
be confused for an ID Token.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">C. No-Top-Level Data:</span></b><span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
/span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quo=
t;,sans-serif">In
 order to more aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it m=
andatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top=
 level.=C2=A0 The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause existing
 relying parties to fail correctly. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This would provide a maximal difference form a IDT=
oken or access token.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">This would have the advantage that envelopes conta=
in no data, and that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It re=
quires more parsing in some cases, but it is at
 least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expect general processors like in=
 SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point and very contextually =
driven), I personally expect to see:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span>* =C2=A0Development of ge=
neral purpose libraries and tools that are used enhance protocols and syste=
ms=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span>* =C2=A0Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will te=
nd to merge multiple event feeds.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Mike Jones also suggested using the<span>=C2=A0</s=
pan><b>=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span>=C2=A0</span>(content type) header at=
tribute from
 JWT.=C2=A0 I think most code today has this set to ignore or fixed as =E2=
=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I wonder what current implements would feel if we=
 introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 W=
ould that help?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">I think it is very important to be able to clearly=
 distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to =
cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Reading=C2=A0RFC 7519 I don&#39;t think cty fits t=
he bill, but I could be wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto=
 algorithm and the default value is JWT. We need to distinguish
 sub-types of JWT, and it should be a claim inside the JWT.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">With the above issue in mind, I think option A is =
the cleanest solution.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Thanks for your comments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Id-event@=
ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helveti=
ca&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,s=
ans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
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Id-event mailing list<br>
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From nobody Wed Aug 24 14:50:36 2016
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 18:56:20 -0300
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and replaying it against any
other channel that takes JWT such as access tokens.

All protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are valid.  one way
to do that is to have different logical audiences for different protocols.

The fact that JWT ignore claims that are not understood gives us great
flexibility but also opens the possibility of cross protocol attacks.

This will be a general problem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as it
can be for protocols using SAML bearer.  Even with proof of possession a
malicious client could perhaps generate a cross channel privilege
escalation.

I think this is potential general problem.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Ok.  Can we agree that a strong security consideration would be the
> appropriate remedy?
>
> The text (not finished yet) might cover the following:
>
> Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and SETs for
> security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in a channel
> where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care to evaluate:
> * The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> * That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.  And where possible th=
e SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and
> the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D are in fact different even if it i=
s the same service
> entity.
> * That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same channe=
l
> and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens via the
> authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs received over HTT=
P
> POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscription.
> * Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an O=
penID Connect
> id_token.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert th=
at it=E2=80=99s
> out of scope for the Events spec.  It would probably need to be its own
> spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in =
which it=E2=80=99s useful
> to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *John Bradley
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM
> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID
> Token
>
> I was saying that cty was wrong for this.
>
> If you look at the definition of typ in JWS https://tools.ietf.org/
> html/rfc7515#page-13  you can see that it is really intended to be the
> media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is =
a
> compact JWT.     Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I
> was recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.
>
> John B.
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes =
a registered JWT
> claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=
=9D?  Note for
> everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:
>
>
> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS <https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-J=
WE>] is used
>
>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes <https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>
>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
>
>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
>
>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
>
>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
>
>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
>
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>
>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>
>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
>
>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
>
>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
>
>
>
> What is concerning is the line that says:
>
> It will typically not be used by applications when
>
>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  *This parameter is*
>
> *   ignored by JWT implementations*; any processing of this parameter is
>
>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>
>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
>
>
> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=
=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help
> much initially. But at least it is more definitive.
>
> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be=
 =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is
> one more distinguishing item.
>
> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security
> considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs,
> that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is able
> to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an
> authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would
> assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>
> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary
> GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT
> would be a stretch.
>
> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim at
> the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretation=
.
>
> John B.
>
> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>
> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this
> discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I want=
ed
> to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  please add if I missed
> any)...
>
> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top leve=
l.  The downside
> of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an acces=
s
> or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does no=
t
> know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET=
 and ID Token for
> all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra
> (the events claim).
>
> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level,
> may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a Strin=
g or URI value.
> For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a S=
CIM Resource URI
> that indicates the resource whose state has changed.  In OAuth it could b=
e
> defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.  A SE=
T
> about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.
>
> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far):
>
> *A.  Sub at Top Level:*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to referenc=
e the Security
> Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general english languag=
e
> intent of subject rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or Open=
ID
> Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI)=
.
>
> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the
> validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event.
> Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that
> for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.
> No payloads would be needed.
>
> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profili=
ng event
> standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered
> in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just
> putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the
> spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads
> with unregistered claims.  I point out that we switched from registered
> event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  Hence the move to payload
> objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims.
>
> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by
> existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and=
/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should
> actually be different and the receiver should detect that.  However in th=
e
> OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the=
 same.  The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
> be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>
> *B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:* =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by tra=
ditional
> definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.
> In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use
> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>
> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms of
> a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might b=
e
> handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>
> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID
> Token.
>
> *C. No-Top-Level Data:* In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of
> SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
> value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then
> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should ca=
use existing
> relying parties to fail correctly.
>
> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.
>
> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that
> every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsing
> in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t expe=
ct general
> processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point an=
d
> very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:
>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used
> enhance protocols and systems
>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events
> historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>
> Mike Jones also suggested using the *=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D* (content type=
) header
> attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to ignore or
> fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current implements would f=
eel if we
> introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would=
 that help?
>
>
> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different
> types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Security
> Event Token as an Id Token.
>
> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong.
> cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default
> value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be a
> claim inside the JWT.
>
> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments.
>
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and replaying i=
t against any other channel that takes JWT such as access tokens.=C2=A0<div=
><br></div><div>All protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are=
 valid. =C2=A0one way to do that is to have different logical audiences for=
 different protocols.</div><div><br></div><div>The fact that JWT ignore cla=
ims that are not understood gives us great flexibility but also opens the p=
ossibility of cross protocol attacks.</div><div><br></div><div>This will be=
 a general problem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as it can be for pr=
otocols using SAML bearer.=C2=A0 Even with proof of possession a malicious =
client could perhaps generate a cross channel privilege escalation.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>I think this is potential general problem.</div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016=
 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@or=
acle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Ok.=C2=A0=
 Can we agree that a strong security consideration would be the appropriate=
 remedy?<div><br></div><div>The text (not finished yet) might cover the fol=
lowing:</div><div><br></div><div>Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as =
access tokens) and SETs for security events should take care to ensure that=
 a SET passed in a channel where it could be confused as an access token MU=
ST take care to evaluate:</div><div>* The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D claim</div><div>* That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is corre=
ct.=C2=A0 And where possible the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and the access t=
oken =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D are in fact different even if it is the same ser=
vice entity.</div><div>* That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received=
 over the same channel and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. ac=
cess tokens via the authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs=
 received over HTTP POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscrip=
tion.</div><div>* Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in th=
e case of an OpenID Connect id_token.</div><div><br><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;li=
ne-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=
=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</=
a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div><br></div></div><br></di=
v><br><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)">A spec could cr=
eate a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert that it=E2=80=99s o=
ut of scope for the Events spec.=C2=A0 It would probably need to be its own=
 spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in w=
hich it=E2=80=99s useful to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a name=3D"m_3824413174625036855__Ma=
ilEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
color:rgb(0,32,96)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></div><span></span><div>=
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</s=
pan>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf=
 Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>John Bradley<br><b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>We=
dnesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM<br><b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.c=
om</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Discussion o=
n use of &quot;sub&quot; and confusion as ID Token<u></u><u></u></span></di=
v></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif">I was saying that cty was wrong for this. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif">If you look at the definition of typ in JWS=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/r=
fc7515#page-13</a>=C2=A0 you can see that it is really intended to be the m=
edia type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a c=
ompact JWT. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JW=
T. =C2=A0 I was recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT r=
egistry.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">John B.<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;T=
imes New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top=
:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:5=
9 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">John,<u></u><u></u></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
,serif">Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that be=
comes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header=
 =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from =
7519:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">The &quot;typ&quot; (type) Header Paramet=
er defined by [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" titl=
e=3D"&quot;JSON Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank">JWS</a>] and [<a href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Encryption (JWE)&quot=
;" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">JWE</=
a>] is used<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 by JWT application=
s to declare the media type [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519=
#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank">IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 this complete JWT.=C2=A0 This is intended for use by the JWT appl=
ication<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 when values that are n=
ot JWTs could also be present in an application<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 data structure that can contain a JWT object; the applica=
tion can use<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 this value to dis=
ambiguate among the different kinds of objects that<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 might be present.=C2=A0 It will typically not be used=
 by applications when<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is al=
ready known that the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 This parameter is<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ignored by JWT implementations; any process=
ing of this parameter is<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 perfo=
rmed by the JWT application.=C2=A0 If present, it is RECOMMENDED that<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to ind=
icate that this object is a JWT.=C2=A0 While<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED =
that &quot;JWT&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 always be=
 spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 legacy implementations.=C2=A0 Use of this Head=
er Parameter is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">What is concerning is the=
 line that says:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">It will t=
ypically not be used by applications when<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is already known that the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 <b><u>This=
 parameter is<u></u><u></u></u></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><b><u>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ig=
nored by JWT implementations</u></b>; any processing of this parameter is<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 performed by the JWT applicatio=
n.=C2=A0 If present, it is RECOMMENDED that<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object i=
s a JWT.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">If it is typically ignored, then h=
aving it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much i=
nitially. But at least it is more definitive.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif">If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=
=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It is one more distinguishing item. =
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Regardless, I will also put a =
cautionary note in the security considerations that if issuing SETs to audi=
ences that also receive JWTs, that appropriate care be taken not to confuse=
 if somehow a hacker is able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain=
 access (e.g. in an authorization header).=C2=A0 Normally this should not b=
e possible as I would assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POS=
T back-channel.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">@independentid<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"http://www.ind=
ependentid.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Ti=
mes New Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 24, 2016, =
at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">The idea for cty was to al=
low a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary GIF as an example. =C2=A0 I t=
hink using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would be a stretch.<u></u>=
<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Ti=
mes New Roman&#39;,serif">I am most comfortable with A. =C2=A0 I think that=
 adding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful going forward =
to avoid misinterpretation.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">John B.<u=
></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5p=
t"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#=
39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtesc=
u &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>=
<div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<=
span>=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;<span>=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote=
 style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-=
right:0in"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using=
 the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important =
to try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the=
 long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: =C2=
=A0please add if I missed any)...<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-=
serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">A question re=
mains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top level.=C2=A0 The do=
wnside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an =
access or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code do=
es not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.=C2=
=A0 The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes are the same since a SE=
T just has something extra (the events claim).<u></u><u></u></span></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
>There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level, m=
ay other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a String o=
r URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value c=
ould be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose state has cha=
nged.=C2=A0 In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier of the tok=
en that has been revoked.=C2=A0 A SET about blacklisting an IP address migh=
t put the IP address in sub.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">So there are three=
 options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">A.=C2=A0 Sub at Top Level:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D generally used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking =
about.=C2=A0 It uses a more general english language intent of subject rath=
er than the traditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.=C2=A0 Regard=
less it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope c=
arries the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of th=
e event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, i=
s that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the sub=
ject.=C2=A0 No payloads would be needed.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Ti=
mes New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
>For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profilin=
g event standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be regi=
stered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just=
 putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the sp=
ec.=C2=A0 However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads =
with unregistered claims.=C2=A0 I point out that we switched from registere=
d event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.=C2=A0 Hence the move to payload=
 objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims. =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></span></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica,sans-serif">This still has the negatives of being confusable as=
 an ID Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Cis=
s=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and th=
e receiver should detect that.=C2=A0 However in the OIDC Logout case, by de=
sign, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=
=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates tha=
t an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the audience may be th=
e same entity in both cases.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">B. Exclusive-Us=
e of Sub:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by traditiona=
l definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.=
=C2=A0 In order to =C2=A0avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should =
NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.<u></u><u></=
u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helve=
tica,sans-serif">This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handl=
ing in terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout=
 Event might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.<u></u><u></u></=
span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Tim=
es New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica=
,sans-serif">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused =
for an ID Token.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">C. No-Top-Level Data:</span=
></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans=
-serif">In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens,=
 make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value =
at the top level.=C2=A0 The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then incl=
ude a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause ex=
isting relying parties to fail correctly. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
">This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.<u=
></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,sans-serif">This would have the advantage that envelopes con=
tain no data, and that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It =
requires more parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While w=
e don=E2=80=99t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (mu=
ch of it is point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expe=
ct to see:<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=
=A0</span>* =C2=A0Development of general purpose libraries and tools that a=
re used enhance protocols and systems=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helve=
tica,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span>* =C2=A0Audit and threat analysis=
 systems will be looking at some events historically. These will tend to me=
rge multiple event feeds.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Mike Jones also sug=
gested using the<span>=C2=A0</span><b>=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span>=C2=A0=
</span>(content type) header attribute from JWT.=C2=A0 I think most code to=
day has this set to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I wonde=
r what current implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=
=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Would that help?<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think it is very important to be able to =
clearly distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being a=
ble to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;=
Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">Reading=C2=A0RFC 7519 I don&#39;t think cty fits the bill, =
but I could be wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorith=
m and the default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, an=
d it should be a claim inside the JWT.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">With the=
 above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helv=
etica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bo=
rder-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:=
0in"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
>Thanks for your comments.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil<u=
></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fa=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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+1  This has been my concern.

I think Mike is right that the correction of adding a type does not =
belong in SET - but mainly because, you would not expect an implementer =
of JWTs for the purpose of access tokens would think to look for a =
security consideration in an event token spec.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:56 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>=20
> The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and replaying it against =
any other channel that takes JWT such as access tokens.=20
>=20
> All protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are valid.  =
one way to do that is to have different logical audiences for different =
protocols.
>=20
> The fact that JWT ignore claims that are not understood gives us great =
flexibility but also opens the possibility of cross protocol attacks.
>=20
> This will be a general problem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as =
it can be for protocols using SAML bearer.  Even with proof of =
possession a malicious client could perhaps generate a cross channel =
privilege escalation.
>=20
> I think this is potential general problem.
>=20
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Ok.  Can we agree that a strong security consideration would be the =
appropriate remedy?
>=20
> The text (not finished yet) might cover the following:
>=20
> Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and SETs for =
security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in a =
channel where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care to =
evaluate:
> * The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
> * That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.  And where possible =
the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
are in fact different even if it is the same service entity.
> * That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same =
channel and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens =
via the authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs received =
over HTTP POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscription.
> * Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of =
an OpenID Connect id_token.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d =
assert that it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the Events spec.  It would =
probably need to be its own spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if =
you=E2=80=99re in use cases in which it=E2=80=99s useful to distinguish =
between things=E2=80=9D.
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of John Bradley
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM
>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Cc: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>; Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as =
ID Token
>> =20
>> I was saying that cty was wrong for this. =20
>> =20
>> If you look at the definition of typ in JWS =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13>  you can see that it is =
really intended to be the media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is =
omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JWT.     Setting it to SET =
seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I was recommending considering a JWT =
top level claim in the JWT registry.
>> =20
>> John B.
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> John,
>> =20
>> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that =
becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT =
header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?  Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenience =
from 7519:
>> =20
>> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE>] is used
>>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT =
application
>>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an =
application
>>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can =
use
>>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects =
that
>>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications =
when
>>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter =
is
>>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that =
"JWT"
>>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility =
with
>>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
>> =20
>> =20
>> What is concerning is the line that says:=20
>> It will typically not be used by applications when
>>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter =
is
>>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that
>>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
>> =20
>> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at least it is =
more definitive.
>> =20
>> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D =
be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is one more distinguishing item. =20
>> =20
>> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security =
considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs, =
that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is =
able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an =
authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would =
assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com =
<mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a =
binary GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes =
of JWT would be a stretch.
>> =20
>> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim =
at the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid =
misinterpretation.
>> =20
>> John B.
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to =
try and get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the =
long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  =
please add if I missed any)...
>> =20
>> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top =
level.  The downside of this approach is that a SET could potentially be =
presented as an access or iD token and might initially be confused =
because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SET and ID Token for all intensive purposes =
are the same since a SET just has something extra (the events claim).
>> =20
>> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top =
level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as =
a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose =
state has changed.  In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier =
of the token that has been revoked.  A SET about blacklisting an IP =
address might put the IP address in sub.
>> =20
>> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far): =20=

>> =20
>> A.  Sub at Top Level:  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to =
reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more =
general english language intent of subject rather than the traditional =
use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).
>> =20
>> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries =
the validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the =
event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, =
is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the =
subject.  No payloads would be needed.
>> =20
>> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for =
profiling event standards to define more claims at the top level. They =
MUST be registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid =
registration by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area =
as described in the spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with =
those that use payloads with unregistered claims.  I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. =20
>> =20
>> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by =
existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.  However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.  The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>> =20
>> B. Exclusive-Use of Sub: =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by =
traditional definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect =
usage only.  In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>> =20
>> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in =
terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout =
Event might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>> =20
>> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an =
ID Token.
>> =20
>> C. No-Top-Level Data: In order to more aggressively avoid confusion =
of SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, =
for example, would then include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the =
payload area. This should cause existing relying parties to fail =
correctly. =20
>> =20
>> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access =
token.
>> =20
>> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and =
that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more =
parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99=
t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is =
point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to =
see:
>>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used =
enhance protocols and systems=20
>>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events =
historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>> =20
>> Mike Jones also suggested using the =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D (content =
type) header attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set =
to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current =
implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Would that help?
>> =20
>> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish =
different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post =
a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=20
>> =20
>> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be =
wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the =
default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it =
should be a claim inside the JWT.
>> =20
>> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest =
solution.
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> Thanks for your comments.
>> =20
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_AB600C82-B010-4596-97AD-681594149431
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">+1 &nbsp;This has been my concern.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think Mike is right that the =
correction of adding a type does not belong in SET - but mainly because, =
you would not expect an implementer of JWTs for the purpose of access =
tokens would think to look for a security consideration in an event =
token spec.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:56 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and =
replaying it against any other channel that takes JWT such as access =
tokens.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">All =
protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are valid. &nbsp;one =
way to do that is to have different logical audiences for different =
protocols.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
fact that JWT ignore claims that are not understood gives us great =
flexibility but also opens the possibility of cross protocol =
attacks.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
will be a general problem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as it can =
be for protocols using SAML bearer.&nbsp; Even with proof of possession =
a malicious client could perhaps generate a cross channel privilege =
escalation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think this is potential general problem.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Aug 24, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Ok.&nbsp; Can we agree that a =
strong security consideration would be the appropriate remedy?<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The text (not finished =
yet) might cover the following:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. =
as access tokens) and SETs for security events should take care to =
ensure that a SET passed in a channel where it could be confused as an =
access token MUST take care to evaluate:</div><div class=3D"">* The =
presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</div><div class=3D"">* =
That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.&nbsp; And where =
possible the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D are in fact different even if it is the same service =
entity.</div><div class=3D"">* That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be =
received over the same channel and at minimum SHOULD be separate =
endpoints. e.g. access tokens via the authorization header of a resource =
service, versus SETs received over HTTP POST at a specific web URI =
associated with the subscription.</div><div class=3D"">* Check for the =
presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an OpenID Connect =
id_token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=

</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5">
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"=
 class=3D"">A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99=
d assert that it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the Events spec.&nbsp; It =
would probably need to be its own spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it =
if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in which it=E2=80=99s useful to =
distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><a=
 name=3D"m_3824413174625036855__MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)"=
 class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style:solid none =
none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt =
0in 0in" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr class=3D"">org</a>]<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b>John Bradley<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, August 24, =
2016 2:24 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] =
Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D"">I was saying that cty was wrong for this. &nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D"">If=
 you look at the definition of typ in JWS&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#page-13" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr =
class=3D"">html/rfc7515#page-13</a>&nbsp; you can see that it is really =
intended to be the media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or =
set to JWT if it is a compact JWT. &nbsp; &nbsp; Setting it to SET seems =
wrong as it is still a JWT. &nbsp; I was recommending considering a JWT =
top level claim in the JWT registry.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">John B.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D"">John,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D =
attribute (that becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type =
value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?&nbsp; Note for =
everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">JWS</a>] and [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON =
Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">JWE</a>] is used<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; by JWT applications to declare the media =
type [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">IANA.MediaTypes</a>] of<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 this complete JWT.&nbsp; This is intended for use by the JWT =
application<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; when values that are not JWTs could also =
be present in an application<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; data structure that can contain a JWT =
object; the application can use<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 might be present.&nbsp; It will typically not be used by applications =
when<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; it is already known that the object is a =
JWT.&nbsp; This parameter is<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ignored by JWT implementations; any =
processing of this parameter is<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 performed by the JWT application.&nbsp; If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object =
is a JWT.&nbsp; While<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; media type names are not case sensitive, =
it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; always be spelled using uppercase =
characters for compatibility with<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 legacy implementations.&nbsp; Use of this Header Parameter is =
OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D"">What is concerning is the line that says:&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier =
New'" class=3D"">It will typically not be used by applications when<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 it is already known that the object is a JWT.&nbsp; <b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">This parameter is<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></u></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ignored by JWT =
implementations</u></b>; any processing of this parameter is<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 performed by the JWT application.&nbsp; If present, it is RECOMMENDED =
that<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object =
is a JWT.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D"">If=
 it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at least it is =
more definitive.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">If the group is comfortable, I am ok with =
making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; It is one =
more distinguishing item. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note =
in the security considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that =
also receive JWTs, that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if =
somehow a hacker is able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain =
access (e.g. in an authorization header).&nbsp; Normally this should not =
be possible as I would assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP =
POST back-channel.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D"">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">@independentid<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D"">On=
 Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D"">The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things =
like a binary GIF as an example. &nbsp; I think using it for =
Distinguishing subtypes of JWT would be a stretch.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">I am most comfortable with A. &nbsp; I think =
that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may also be useful going =
forward to avoid misinterpretation.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">John B.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" class=3D""><u=
 class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>wr<wbr class=3D"">ote:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none =
none =
solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The authors have been having a discussion with regards to =
using the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is =
important to try and get this discussion back to the main group. My =
apologies for the long note. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on =
the table (hint: &nbsp;please add if I missed any)...<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at =
the top level.&nbsp; The downside of this approach is that a SET could =
potentially be presented as an access or iD token and might initially be =
confused because existing code does not know it needs to look for an =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.&nbsp; The SET and ID Token for all =
intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra =
(the events claim).<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the =
top level, may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
as a String or URI value. For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D value could be a SCIM Resource URI that indicates the resource =
whose state has changed.&nbsp; In OAuth it could be defined as the token =
identifier of the token that has been revoked.&nbsp; A SET about =
blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so =
far): &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">A.&nbsp; Sub at Top Level:</span></b><span class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to reference the =
Security Subject the SET is talking about.&nbsp; It uses a more general =
english language intent of subject rather than the traditional use as =
seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.&nbsp; Regardless it is still compliant =
with RFC7519 (a String or URI).<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope =
carries the validation information, the type of event, and the subject =
of the event. Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this =
style, is that for many events, the only thing needed is the event type =
and the subject.&nbsp; No payloads would be needed.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">For =
events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling =
event standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be =
registered in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration =
by just putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described =
in the spec.&nbsp; However, this would be inconsistent with those that =
use payloads with unregistered claims.&nbsp; I point out that we =
switched from registered event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.&nbsp; =
Hence the move to payload objects to eliminate registration for =
attributes/claims. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID =
Token by existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the =
receiver should detect that.&nbsp; However in the OIDC Logout case, by =
design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.&nbsp; The =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D would also likely be the same unless the spec =
indicates that an alias =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the =
audience may be the same entity in both cases.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">B. =
Exclusive-Use of Sub:</span></b><span class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional =
definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage =
only.&nbsp; In order to &nbsp;avoid confusing, all profiling event specs =
should NOT use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling =
in terms of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout =
Event might be handled directly by existing ID Token code.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused =
for an ID Token.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">C. =
No-Top-Level Data:</span></b><span class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">In =
order to more aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it =
mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the =
top level.&nbsp; The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include =
a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause =
existing relying parties to fail correctly. &nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or =
access token.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, =
and that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires =
more parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we =
don=E2=80=99t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution =
(much of it is point to point and very contextually driven), I =
personally expect to see:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Development of =
general purpose libraries and tools that are used enhance protocols and =
systems&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>* &nbsp;Audit and threat =
analysis systems will be looking at some events historically. These will =
tend to merge multiple event feeds.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Mike Jones also suggested using the<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span>(content type) header attribute from JWT.&nbsp; =
I think most code today has this set to ignore or fixed as =
=E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.&nbsp; I wonder what current implements would feel =
if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?&n=
bsp; Would that help?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">I think it is very important to be able to clearly =
distinguish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able =
to cross post a Security Event Token as an Id Token.&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Reading&nbsp;RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I =
could be wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm =
and the default value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, =
and it should be a claim inside the JWT.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the =
cleanest solution.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none =
none none =
solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Thanks for your comments.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">@independentid<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New =
Roman',serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
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href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
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0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
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0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
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0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif" =
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style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
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portant" class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
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form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class=3D""><span =
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2016 16:25:17 -0700
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To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID Token
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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 2:56 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:

> The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and replaying it against any
> other channel that takes JWT such as access tokens.
>
> All protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are valid.  one
> way to do that is to have different logical audiences for different
> protocols.
>
> The fact that JWT ignore claims that are not understood gives us great
> flexibility but also opens the possibility of cross protocol attacks.
>
> This will be a general problem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as it
> can be for protocols using SAML bearer.  Even with proof of possession a
> malicious client could perhaps generate a cross channel privilege
> escalation.
>
> I think this is potential general problem.
>

+1


>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok.  Can we agree that a strong security consideration would be the
>> appropriate remedy?
>>
>> The text (not finished yet) might cover the following:
>>
>> Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and SETs for
>> security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in a channe=
l
>> where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care to evaluate=
:
>> * The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim
>> * That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.  And where possible t=
he SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and
>> the access token =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D are in fact different even if it =
is the same service
>> entity.
>> * That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same
>> channel and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens =
via
>> the authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs received ove=
r
>> HTTP POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscription.
>> * Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an =
OpenID Connect
>> id_token.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert t=
hat it=E2=80=99s
>> out of scope for the Events spec.  It would probably need to be its own
>> spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re in use cases in=
 which it=E2=80=99s useful
>> to distinguish between things=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *John Bradley
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM
>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org; Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of "sub" and confusion as ID
>> Token
>>
>> I was saying that cty was wrong for this.
>>
>> If you look at the definition of typ in JWS https://tools.ietf.org/htm
>> l/rfc7515#page-13  you can see that it is really intended to be the
>> media type of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is=
 a
>> compact JWT.     Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT.   I
>> was recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.
>>
>> John B.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (that becomes=
 a registered JWT
>> claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=
=9D?  Note for
>> everyone=E2=80=99s convenience from 7519:
>>
>>
>> The "typ" (type) Header Parameter defined by [JWS <https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/rfc7519#ref-JWS>] and [JWE <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-=
JWE>] is used
>>
>>    by JWT applications to declare the media type [IANA.MediaTypes <https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes>] of
>>
>>    this complete JWT.  This is intended for use by the JWT application
>>
>>    when values that are not JWTs could also be present in an application
>>
>>    data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use
>>
>>    this value to disambiguate among the different kinds of objects that
>>
>>    might be present.  It will typically not be used by applications when
>>
>>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  This parameter is
>>
>>    ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this parameter is
>>
>>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>>
>>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.  While
>>
>>    media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that "JWT"
>>
>>    always be spelled using uppercase characters for compatibility with
>>
>>    legacy implementations.  Use of this Header Parameter is OPTIONAL.
>>
>>
>>
>> What is concerning is the line that says:
>>
>> It will typically not be used by applications when
>>
>>    it is already known that the object is a JWT.  *This parameter is*
>>
>> *   ignored by JWT implementations*; any processing of this parameter is
>>
>>    performed by the JWT application.  If present, it is RECOMMENDED that
>>
>>    its value be "JWT" to indicate that this object is a JWT.
>>
>>
>> If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=
=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help
>> much initially. But at least it is more definitive.
>>
>> If the group is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D b=
e =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D.  It is
>> one more distinguishing item.
>>
>> Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in the security
>> considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also receive JWTs,
>> that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker is abl=
e
>> to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an
>> authorization header).  Normally this should not be possible as I would
>> assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote:
>>
>> The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary
>> GIF as an example.   I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of JWT
>> would be a stretch.
>>
>> I am most comfortable with A.   I think that adding a JWT type claim at
>> the top level may also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretatio=
n.
>>
>> John B.
>>
>> On Aug 24, 2016, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>
>> The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D
>> claim in the top level. I think it is important to try and get this
>> discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long note. I wan=
ted
>> to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint:  please add if I missed
>> any)...
>>
>> A question remains should =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top lev=
el.  The downside
>> of this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an acce=
ss
>> or iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does n=
ot
>> know it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.  The SE=
T and ID Token for
>> all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has something extra
>> (the events claim).
>>
>> There is also the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level,
>> may other events use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a Stri=
ng or URI value.
>> For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a =
SCIM Resource URI
>> that indicates the resource whose state has changed.  In OAuth it could =
be
>> defined as the token identifier of the token that has been revoked.  A S=
ET
>> about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP address in sub.
>>
>> So there are three options (Option A seems to be favoured so far):
>>
>> *A.  Sub at Top Level:*  =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generally used to referen=
ce the Security
>> Subject the SET is talking about.  It uses a more general english langua=
ge
>> intent of subject rather than the traditional use as seen in SAML or Ope=
nID
>> Connect.  Regardless it is still compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI=
).
>>
>> This would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries th=
e
>> validation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event.
>> Additional data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that
>> for many events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject=
.
>> No payloads would be needed.
>>
>> For events that don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profil=
ing event
>> standards to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registere=
d
>> in the JWT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just
>> putting their attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the
>> spec.  However, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads
>> with unregistered claims.  I point out that we switched from registered
>> event URNs to URIs to avoid registration.  Hence the move to payload
>> objects to eliminate registration for attributes/claims.
>>
>> This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by
>> existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D an=
d/or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should
>> actually be different and the receiver should detect that.  However in t=
he
>> OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be th=
e same.  The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
>> would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
>> be used even though the audience may be the same entity in both cases.
>>
>> *B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:* =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by tr=
aditional
>> definition and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.
>> In order to  avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use
>> =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.
>>
>> This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in terms o=
f
>> a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event might =
be
>> handled directly by existing ID Token code.
>>
>> This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID
>> Token.
>>
>> *C. No-Top-Level Data:* In order to more aggressively avoid confusion of
>> SETs as ID Tokens, make it mandatory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D
>> value at the top level.  The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then
>> include a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should c=
ause existing
>> relying parties to fail correctly.
>>
>> This would provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.
>>
>> This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data, and that
>> every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires more parsin=
g
>> in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=99t exp=
ect general
>> processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is point to point a=
nd
>> very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:
>>   *  Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used
>> enhance protocols and systems
>>   *  Audit and threat analysis systems will be looking at some events
>> historically. These will tend to merge multiple event feeds.
>>
>> Mike Jones also suggested using the *=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D* (content typ=
e) header
>> attribute from JWT.  I think most code today has this set to ignore or
>> fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.  I wonder what current implements would =
feel if we
>> introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?  Woul=
d that help?
>>
>>
>> I think it is very important to be able to clearly distinguish different
>> types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross post a Securit=
y
>> Event Token as an Id Token.
>>
>> Reading RFC 7519 I don't think cty fits the bill, but I could be wrong.
>> cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the default
>> value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be =
a
>> claim inside the JWT.
>>
>> With the above issue in mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your comments.
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Aug 24, 2016 at 2:56 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">The problem is a bad guy getting a SET JWT and replaying it against any o=
ther channel that takes JWT such as access tokens.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div=
>All protocols that receive JWT need to ensure that they are valid. =C2=A0o=
ne way to do that is to have different logical audiences for different prot=
ocols.</div><div><br></div><div>The fact that JWT ignore claims that are no=
t understood gives us great flexibility but also opens the possibility of c=
ross protocol attacks.</div><div><br></div><div>This will be a general prob=
lem for anything using JWT bearer tokens as it can be for protocols using S=
AML bearer.=C2=A0 Even with proof of possession a malicious client could pe=
rhaps generate a cross channel privilege escalation.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I think this is potential general problem.</div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>+1</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Ok.=C2=A0 Can we agree that =
a strong security consideration would be the appropriate remedy?<div><br></=
div><div>The text (not finished yet) might cover the following:</div><div><=
br></div><div>Audiences that receive both JWTs (e.g. as access tokens) and =
SETs for security events should take care to ensure that a SET passed in a =
channel where it could be confused as an access token MUST take care to eva=
luate:</div><div>* The presence/absence of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim</=
div><div>* That the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D value is correct.=C2=A0 And where=
 possible the SET =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D and the access token =E2=80=9Caud=
=E2=80=9D are in fact different even if it is the same service entity.</div=
><div>* That access tokens and SETs SHOULD NOT be received over the same ch=
annel and at minimum SHOULD be separate endpoints. e.g. access tokens via t=
he authorization header of a resource service, versus SETs received over HT=
TP POST at a specific web URI associated with the subscription.</div><div>*=
 Check for the presence of a =E2=80=9Cnonce=E2=80=9D in the case of an Open=
ID Connect id_token.</div><div><br><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;li=
ne-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=
=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.in=
dependentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><=
/div><div><br></div></div><br></div><br><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_-179513133003899373h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 24, 2016, at 2:31 PM, Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)=
">A spec could create a top-level JWT type claim, but I=E2=80=99d assert th=
at it=E2=80=99s out of scope for the Events spec.=C2=A0 It would probably n=
eed to be its own spec and say basically =E2=80=9Cuse it if you=E2=80=99re =
in use cases in which it=E2=80=99s useful to distinguish between things=E2=
=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a name=3D"m_-1795=
13133003899373_m_3824413174625036855__MailEndCompose" class=3D"cremed"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,32,96)=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></div><span></span><div><div style=3D"bord=
er-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width=
:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf =
Of<span>=C2=A0</span></b>John Bradley<br><b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Wed=
nesday, August 24, 2016 2:24 PM<br><b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"creme=
d">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.=
org</a>; Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:=
</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Discussion on use of &quot;sub&quot; =
and confusion as ID Token<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I was saying =
that cty was wrong for this. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">If you =
look at the definition of typ in JWS=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc7515#page-13" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://tools.ietf.org/htm<wbr>l/rfc7515#pa=
ge-13</a>=C2=A0 you can see that it is really intended to be the media type=
 of the complete JWS/JWE and is omitted or set to JWT if it is a compact JW=
T. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Setting it to SET seems wrong as it is still a JWT. =C2=A0=
 I was recommending considering a JWT top level claim in the JWT registry.<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">John B.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,seri=
f"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margi=
n-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 24, 2016, at 5:59 PM, Phil=
 Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">John,<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;,serif">Did you mean adding a =E2=80=9Cjwt_type=E2=80=9D attribute (=
that becomes a registered JWT claim) OR adding a new type value for the JWT=
 header =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Note for everyone=E2=80=99s convenienc=
e from 7519:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">The &quot;typ&quot; (type) Heade=
r Parameter defined by [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-=
JWS" title=3D"&quot;JSON Web Signature (JWS)&quot;" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">JWS</a>] and [=
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-JWE" title=3D"&quot;JSON=
 Web Encryption (JWE)&quot;" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">JWE</a>] is used<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 by JWT applications to declare the media type [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#ref-IANA.MediaTypes" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">I=
ANA.MediaTypes</a>] of<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 this co=
mplete JWT.=C2=A0 This is intended for use by the JWT application<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 when values that are not JWTs could als=
o be present in an application<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 data structure that can contain a JWT object; the application can use<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 this value to disambiguate among t=
he different kinds of objects that<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 might be present.=C2=A0 It will typically not be used by application=
s when<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 it is already known tha=
t the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 This parameter is<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ignored by JWT implementations; any processing of this par=
ameter is<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 performed by the JWT=
 application.=C2=A0 If present, it is RECOMMENDED that<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 its value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this=
 object is a JWT.=C2=A0 While<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
media type names are not case sensitive, it is RECOMMENDED that &quot;JWT&q=
uot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 always be spelled using u=
ppercase characters for compatibility with<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 legacy implementations.=C2=A0 Use of this Header Parameter is =
OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">What is concerning is the line that says:=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">It will typically not be =
used by applications when<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 it i=
s already known that the object is a JWT.=C2=A0 <b><u>This parameter is<u><=
/u><u></u></u></b></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;"><b><u>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ignored by JWT impl=
ementations</u></b>; any processing of this parameter is<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 performed by the JWT application.=C2=A0 If prese=
nt, it is RECOMMENDED that<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 its=
 value be &quot;JWT&quot; to indicate that this object is a JWT.<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif">If it is typically ignored, then having it =E2=80=9Ct=
yp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D may not help much initially. But at le=
ast it is more definitive.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">If the gro=
up is comfortable, I am ok with making =E2=80=9Ctyp=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9CSE=
T=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It is one more distinguishing item. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif">Regardless, I will also put a cautionary note in th=
e security considerations that if issuing SETs to audiences that also recei=
ve JWTs, that appropriate care be taken not to confuse if somehow a hacker =
is able to present the SET as if it were a JWT to gain access (e.g. in an a=
uthorization header).=C2=A0 Normally this should not be possible as I would=
 assume SETs are passed via something like an HTTP POST back-channel.<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><=
/div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Phil<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">www.independentid.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On A=
ug 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Bradley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.c=
om" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,seri=
f">The idea for cty was to allow a JWS to encapsulate things like a binary =
GIF as an example. =C2=A0 I think using it for Distinguishing subtypes of J=
WT would be a stretch.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I am most comfortabl=
e with A. =C2=A0 I think that adding a JWT type claim at the top level may =
also be useful going forward to avoid misinterpretation.<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times Ne=
w Roman&#39;,serif">John B.<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">On Aug 24, 2016=
, at 4:51 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Ro=
man&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-ser=
if">On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Phil Hunt<span>=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<sp=
an>=C2=A0</span>wr<wbr>ote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"=
border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
">The authors have been having a discussion with regards to using the =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D claim in the top level. I think it is important to try a=
nd get this discussion back to the main group. My apologies for the long no=
te. I wanted to get all the pros and cons on the table (hint: =C2=A0please =
add if I missed any)...<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">A question remains shou=
ld =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D be usable at the top level.=C2=A0 The downside of =
this approach is that a SET could potentially be presented as an access or =
iD token and might initially be confused because existing code does not kno=
w it needs to look for an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D attribute.=C2=A0 The SET=
 and ID Token for all intensive purposes are the same since a SET just has =
something extra (the events claim).<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">There is al=
so the question that if OIDC Logout uses it in the top level, may other eve=
nts use it? RFC7519 defines =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D as a String or URI value.=
 For example, in SCIM events, the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value could be a SC=
IM Resource URI that indicates the resource whose state has changed.=C2=A0 =
In OAuth it could be defined as the token identifier of the token that has =
been revoked.=C2=A0 A SET about blacklisting an IP address might put the IP=
 address in sub.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">So there are three options (Op=
tion A seems to be favoured so far): =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helve=
tica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
A.=C2=A0 Sub at Top Level:</span></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D generall=
y used to reference the Security Subject the SET is talking about.=C2=A0 It=
 uses a more general english language intent of subject rather than the tra=
ditional use as seen in SAML or OpenID Connect.=C2=A0 Regardless it is stil=
l compliant with RFC7519 (a String or URI).<u></u><u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helve=
tica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Thi=
s would tend to lead to a style of SETs where the envelope carries the vali=
dation information, the type of event, and the subject of the event. Additi=
onal data goes in the payload. An advantage of this style, is that for many=
 events, the only thing needed is the event type and the subject.=C2=A0 No =
payloads would be needed.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">For events tha=
t don=E2=80=99t want payload, it is probably ok for profiling event standar=
ds to define more claims at the top level. They MUST be registered in the J=
WT registry. Profiling events can avoid registration by just putting their =
attributes/claims in the payload area as described in the spec.=C2=A0 Howev=
er, this would be inconsistent with those that use payloads with unregister=
ed claims.=C2=A0 I point out that we switched from registered event URNs to=
 URIs to avoid registration.=C2=A0 Hence the move to payload objects to eli=
minate registration for attributes/claims. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">This still has the negatives of being confusable as an ID Token by=
 existing code. There has been a discussion that =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D and/=
or =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should actually be different and the receiver shou=
ld detect that.=C2=A0 However in the OIDC Logout case, by design, the =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D value would be the same.=C2=A0 The =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D=
 would also likely be the same unless the spec indicates that an alias =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D be used even though the audience may be the same entity =
in both cases.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">B. Exclusive-Use of Sub:</s=
pan></b><span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif">=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is interpreted to by traditional definition=
 and is reserved for OAuth tokens and OIDC Connect usage only.=C2=A0 In ord=
er to =C2=A0avoid confusing, all profiling event specs should NOT use =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the top level except for OIDC.<u></u><u></u></span></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">This has the disadvantage that OIDC requires special handling in term=
s of a general use event library, but on the other hand a Logout Event migh=
t be handled directly by existing ID Token code.<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
">This still has the disadvantage that an SET could be confused for an ID T=
oken.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">C. No-Top-Level Data:</span></b><span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span=
></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In o=
rder to more aggressively avoid confusion of SETs as ID Tokens, make it man=
datory that SETs may not contain a =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D value at the top l=
evel.=C2=A0 The OIDC Logout Event, for example, would then include a =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D value in the payload area. This should cause existing relyi=
ng parties to fail correctly. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This would=
 provide a maximal difference form a IDToken or access token.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;T=
imes New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helveti=
ca,sans-serif">This would have the advantage that envelopes contain no data=
, and that every SET has a payload where the data is found. It requires mor=
e parsing in some cases, but it is at least consistent. While we don=E2=80=
=99t expect general processors like in SOAP for distribution (much of it is=
 point to point and very contextually driven), I personally expect to see:<=
u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"=
font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span>* =
=C2=A0Development of general purpose libraries and tools that are used enha=
nce protocols and systems=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New R=
oman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<span>=C2=A0</span>* =C2=A0Audit and threat analysis systems wil=
l be looking at some events historically. These will tend to merge multiple=
 event feeds.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Mike Jones also suggested using t=
he<span>=C2=A0</span><b>=E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D</b><span>=C2=A0</span>(conten=
t type) header attribute from JWT.=C2=A0 I think most code today has this s=
et to ignore or fixed as =E2=80=9CJWT=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 I wonder what current=
 implements would feel if we introduced a =E2=80=9Ccty=E2=80=9D value of =
=E2=80=9CSET=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 Would that help?<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helv=
etica,sans-serif">I think it is very important to be able to clearly distin=
guish different types of JWT tokens. For example, not being able to cross p=
ost a Security Event Token as an Id Token.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
">Reading=C2=A0RFC 7519 I don&#39;t think cty fits the bill, but I could be=
 wrong. cty is a header parameter used by the crypto algorithm and the defa=
ult value is JWT. We need to distinguish sub-types of JWT, and it should be=
 a claim inside the JWT.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">With the above issue i=
n mind, I think option A is the cleanest solution.<u></u><u></u></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Ro=
man&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-styl=
e:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width=
:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks for you=
r comments.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt=
;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">@independentid<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</=
a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"=
mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helve=
tica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt=
;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>______________________=
________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailt=
o:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></blockquote></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times Ne=
w Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">___________=
___________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br></spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<=
wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#3=
9;,serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf=
.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">_____________________________=
_<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:in=
line!important">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-even=
t" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7b670b355adfab053ad999cf--


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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] ID Event Token Simplification
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Mike,

Apologies, I just re-read and I missed something that might be a mistake =
in your text.  If you disagree we need to keep discussing.

See inline.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> A number of the ID Event Token contributors were discussing the ID =
Event Token format yesterday and we came up with what seems like rough =
consensus on a way to keep the ID Event Token spec simple enough that =
it=E2=80=99s likely to be accepted by the security ADs and IESG as an =
individual submission.  The background on the agreement is this:
> =20
> =C2=B7       JWTs containing events will contain only one or more =
related events in a family of events, and not be a container of sets of =
unrelated events.
I believe the consensus is one and only one event plus extensions.  An =
extension might be from a different family entirely but related to the =
primary event.  For example, some might have context specific needs to =
extend between partners.  Or, some might want to add catergorization =
information to the event (e.g. for multi-event threat analysis) such as =
Cybox Threat categories.

> =C2=B7       The primary event will be the first event in the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D list and the related events will be 2nd, 3rd, =
etc.
So the 2nd, 3rd etc are =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D to the primary =
event.  They are not dual events.

When we originally discussed =E2=80=9Cmulti-events=E2=80=9D the case was =
when two different families had overlapping event definitions. So the =
hypothetical scenarios was:  Both SCIM and RISC might have an =E2=80=9Cacc=
ount reset event=E2=80=9D.  Should those be two separate events (for the =
same actual event), OR should they be expressed together in a single =
JWT?

The consensus so far has been that such a scenario that has subscribers =
for SCIM and RISC would generate two separate SETs.

> =C2=B7       Claims pertaining to the family events should be =
top-level claims.  These should be registered in the JWT Claims Registry =
unless they are private claim names or public claim names (as defined in =
JWT sections 4.2 and 4.3).
> =C2=B7       Claims pertaining only to an individual event should be =
values within a claim using the same name as the event.  These values =
need only be defined within the event definition and need not be =
registered as top-level claim names.
> =C2=B7       It is up to each event family and individual event what =
claims are included with the event family and event.
> =20
> This works well because event listeners are listening for a defined =
family of events and those only.  Any events that the listeners =
doesn=E2=80=99t recognize will be either ignored or generate errors, =
depending upon the application context.  Likewise, receiving a JWT =
without an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim at an events listener should =
likely generate an error as well.
> =20
> We are explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern, in which a =
general-purpose message dispatcher was the listener.  Developers have =
voted with their feet in avoiding this pattern.  We will be wise to do =
the same.
> =20
> The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn=E2=80=99t raise =
any complicated questions.  It should enable us to get the spec approved =
soon.
> =20
> I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 along these lines.  =
Phil can follow up from here.
> =20
>                                                        Thanks all,
>                                                        -- Mike
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Mike,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Apologies, I just re-read and I missed something that might =
be a mistake in your text. &nbsp;If you disagree we need to keep =
discussing.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">See =
inline.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 24, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A number of the ID Event =
Token contributors were discussing the ID Event Token format yesterday =
and we came up with what seems like rough consensus on a way to keep the =
ID Event Token spec simple enough that it=E2=80=99s likely to be =
accepted by the security ADs and IESG as an individual submission.&nbsp; =
The background on the agreement is this:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>JWTs =
containing events will contain only one or more related events in a =
family of events, and not be a container of sets of unrelated =
events.</div></div></div></blockquote>I believe the consensus is one and =
only one event plus extensions. &nbsp;An extension might be from a =
different family entirely but related to the primary event. &nbsp;For =
example, some might have context specific needs to extend between =
partners. &nbsp;Or, some might want to add catergorization information =
to the event (e.g. for multi-event threat analysis) such as Cybox Threat =
categories.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>The =
primary event will be the first event in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
list and the related events will be 2<sup class=3D"">nd</sup>, 3<sup =
class=3D"">rd</sup>, etc.</div></div></div></blockquote>So the 2nd, 3rd =
etc are =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D to the primary event. &nbsp;They =
are not dual events.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>When we =
originally discussed =E2=80=9Cmulti-events=E2=80=9D the case was when =
two different families had overlapping event definitions. So the =
hypothetical scenarios was: &nbsp;Both SCIM and RISC might have an =
=E2=80=9Caccount reset event=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;Should those be two =
separate events (for the same actual event), OR should they be expressed =
together in a single JWT?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
consensus so far has been that such a scenario that has subscribers for =
SCIM and RISC would generate two separate SETs.</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Claims =
pertaining to the family events should be top-level claims.&nbsp; These =
should be registered in the JWT Claims Registry unless they are private =
claim names or public claim names (as defined in JWT sections 4.2 and =
4.3).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Claims =
pertaining only to an individual event should be values within a claim =
using the same name as the event.&nbsp; These values need only be =
defined within the event definition and need not be registered as =
top-level claim names.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>It is =
up to each event family and individual event what claims are included =
with the event family and event.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This works well because event listeners =
are listening for a defined family of events and those only.&nbsp; Any =
events that the listeners doesn=E2=80=99t recognize will be either =
ignored or generate errors, depending upon the application =
context.&nbsp; Likewise, receiving a JWT without an =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 claim at an events listener should likely generate an error as =
well.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We are =
explicitly steering clear of the SOAP pattern, in which a =
general-purpose message dispatcher was the listener.&nbsp; Developers =
have voted with their feet in avoiding this pattern.&nbsp; We will be =
wise to do the same.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The set of rules above is straightforward and doesn=E2=80=99t =
raise any complicated questions.&nbsp; It should enable us to get the =
spec approved soon.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I believe that Phil is working on changes for -04 along these =
lines.&nbsp; Phil can follow up from here.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks all,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
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text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] ID Event Token Simplification
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/2LBhfcK7Ssv-21VPULp06xi7G90>
Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] ID Event Token Simplification
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From: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:02:31 -0700
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Subject: [Id-event] SET examples for a healthcare context
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Hi all,

I've been putting together some examples based on the idevent-token-03
draft. You can find them here:

https://github.com/id-event/examples

There are three examples of an idp-to-rp SET - consent, token revocation,
and userinfo update.

There are two examples of an rp-to-idp SET - parallel authentication and
suspected fraud.

This format seems workable for our use cases. Note that none of these
include or require "sub" at the top level.

Sarah

Sarah Squire
Engage Identity
http://engageidentity.com

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve been putting together =
some examples based on the idevent-token-03 draft. You can find them here:<=
/div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/id-event/examples" t=
arget=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-size:12.8px">https://github.com/id-event/<wb=
r>examples</a></div><div><br></div><div>There are three examples of an idp-=
to-rp SET - consent, token revocation, and userinfo update.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>There are two examples of an rp-to-idp SET - parallel authenticat=
ion and suspected fraud.</div><div><br></div><div>This format seems workabl=
e for our use cases. Note that none of these include or require &quot;sub&q=
uot; at the top level.</div><div><br></div><div>Sarah</div><div><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signat=
ure"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">Sarah Squire</d=
iv><div style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">Engage Identity</div><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(136,136,136)"><a href=3D"http://engageidentity.com/" style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">http://engageidentity.com</a></div></=
div></div></div>
</div></div>

--001a113b0220bb3ca9053b61e674--


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Subject: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D. I thought I should share with the broader group.

We discussed if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D should have any meaning in a SET.  =
When you look at access tokens there are 3 things it is being used for:

1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)
2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the assertion expires

A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in time.  =E2=80=9CToken=
 WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is permanent and cannot expire =
since the fact will not change.  While we may not want to rule =E2=80=9Cex=
p" out, it does feel like the use of it should be avoided.

Any opinions here?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>






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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D. I thought I should share with the broader =
group.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We discussed =
if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D should have any meaning in a SET. &nbsp;When =
you look at access tokens there are 3 things it is being used =
for:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. =
Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)</div><div =
class=3D"">2. Sessions: &nbsp;the token is not valid when the assertion =
expires</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A SET =
however is a statement of a fact at a point in time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9CToken =
WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is permanent and cannot expire =
since the fact will not change. &nbsp;While we may not want to rule =
=E2=80=9Cexp" out, it does feel like the use of it should be =
avoided.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Any =
opinions here?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [Id-event] Editorial discussion:  Attributes or Claims
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For the next draft, I realized that draft 03 uses a mix of the terms =
=E2=80=9Cattribute=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D.  In part this =
occured because the draft originally came out of SCIM and then we =
switched to using JWTs.

While the terms are used synonymously, it would probably be less =
confusing to readers to use one term or the other and to properly define =
its use. My feeling is that =E2=80=9Cattribute=E2=80=9D fits better as =
we are saying a SET is a statement of fact from the perspective of the =
issuer.  The statement about attributes that are not in dispute (x was =
changed).  This is very different from an access token or an =
authentication assertion where there is a degree of confidence in the =
value.

For draft 04, I have revised the draft to consistently use =
=E2=80=9Cattributes=E2=80=9D while providing an explanation/definition. =20=


I wanted to call your attention to this in advance and hopefully get =
some discussion.  I would like to make clear that we can switch to =
=E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D if people feel strongly that consistency with =
7519 provided we can all agree to redefine the term =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D=
 as being factual in a SET.  I can see how people will view simplicity =
and consistency in different ways here.

In the end, I do not want to spend to much time on this as it doesn=E2=80=99=
t change SETs normatively. This is just editorial cleanliness and we =
should avoid too much bike shedding here.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>






--Apple-Mail=_17C26285-F717-4098-9D3E-5F6D9A26EDAF
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">For the next draft, I realized that draft 03 uses a mix of =
the terms =E2=80=9Cattribute=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D. =
&nbsp;In part this occured because the draft originally came out of SCIM =
and then we switched to using JWTs.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">While the terms are used synonymously, =
it would probably be less confusing to readers to use one term or the =
other and to properly define its use. My feeling is that =E2=80=9Cattribut=
e=E2=80=9D fits better as we are saying a SET is a statement of fact =
from the perspective of the issuer. &nbsp;The statement about attributes =
that are not in dispute (x was changed). &nbsp;This is very different =
from an access token or an authentication assertion where there is a =
degree of confidence in the value.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For draft 04, I have revised the draft =
to consistently use =E2=80=9Cattributes=E2=80=9D while providing an =
explanation/definition. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I wanted to call your attention to this =
in advance and hopefully get some discussion. &nbsp;I would like to make =
clear that we can switch to =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D if people feel =
strongly that consistency with 7519 provided we can all agree to =
redefine the term =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D as being factual in a SET. =
&nbsp;I can see how people will view simplicity and consistency in =
different ways here.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In the end, I do not want to spend to much time on this as it =
doesn=E2=80=99t change SETs normatively. This is just editorial =
cleanliness and we should avoid too much bike shedding here.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:29:34 -0700
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To: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>
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Cc: id-event@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] SET examples for a healthcare context
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Sarah,

Your examples highlight some issues around =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D that =
are still in a flux. For draft 04, the emerging consensus seems to be to =
use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be used at the top level as it is already =
defined as a JWT claim.  Yet for some systems, the problem is that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is not a URI and without an =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
is incomplete.  This becomes problematic then if =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
of the event is not the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
.

Your examples actually show this - for example heart-parallel-auth.json

For now, I=E2=80=99m just taking the editorial position that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D in the envelope or =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the payload is up to =
the profiling specification to decide.  That gives me some worry about =
inconsistency between specs, but I think it may not be that big a deal =
in practice since people will tend to worry about one family of events =
at a time in the context of a single subscriber.

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>





> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I've been putting together some examples based on the idevent-token-03 =
draft. You can find them here:
>=20
> https://github.com/id-event/examples =
<https://github.com/id-event/examples>
>=20
> There are three examples of an idp-to-rp SET - consent, token =
revocation, and userinfo update.
>=20
> There are two examples of an rp-to-idp SET - parallel authentication =
and suspected fraud.
>=20
> This format seems workable for our use cases. Note that none of these =
include or require "sub" at the top level.
>=20
> Sarah
>=20
> Sarah Squire
> Engage Identity
> http://engageidentity.com =
<http://engageidentity.com/>______________________________________________=
_
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Sarah,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your=
 examples highlight some issues around =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D that are =
still in a flux. For draft 04, the emerging consensus seems to be to use =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be used at the top level as it is already =
defined as a JWT claim. &nbsp;Yet for some systems, the problem is that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is not a URI and without an =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
is incomplete. &nbsp;This becomes problematic then if =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
 of the event is not the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D of the =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Your examples actually show this - for example =
heart-parallel-auth.json</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">For now, I=E2=80=99m just taking the editorial position that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the envelope or =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the =
payload is up to the profiling specification to decide. &nbsp;That gives =
me some worry about inconsistency between specs, but I think it may not =
be that big a deal in practice since people will tend to worry about one =
family of events at a time in the context of a single =
subscriber.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Sarah Squire &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" =
class=3D"">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I've been putting together some examples based on the =
idevent-token-03 draft. You can find them here:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/id-event/examples" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">https://github.com/id-event/<wbr =
class=3D"">examples</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are three examples of an idp-to-rp SET - consent, token =
revocation, and userinfo update.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are two examples of an rp-to-idp =
SET - parallel authentication and suspected fraud.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This format seems =
workable for our use cases. Note that none of these include or require =
"sub" at the top level.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Sarah</div><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D"">Sarah Squire</div><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D"">Engage Identity</div><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://engageidentity.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://engageidentity.com</a></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/5YbcYf0GdISh11Hm8o_Vdh4JiaA>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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+1 to your assessment of the situation

Nick

On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about “exp”. I 
> thought I should share with the broader group.
>
> We discussed if “exp” should have any meaning in a SET.  When you look 
> at access tokens there are 3 things it is being used for:
>
> 1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)
> 2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the assertion expires
>
> A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in time.  “Token WAS 
> revoked”. One could say it is permanent and cannot expire since the 
> fact will not change.  While we may not want to rule “exp" out, it 
> does feel like the use of it should be avoided.
>
> Any opinions here?
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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    +1 to your assessment of the situation<br>
    <br>
    Nick<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:2CD2401D-4FBD-4F39-8722-AB8D8333D856@oracle.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about “exp”. I
      thought I should share with the broader group.
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">We discussed if “exp” should have any meaning in a
        SET.  When you look at access tokens there are 3 things it is
        being used for:</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after
        exp)</div>
      <div class="">2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the
        assertion expires</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in
        time.  “Token WAS revoked”. One could say it is permanent and
        cannot expire since the fact will not change.  While we may not
        want to rule “exp" out, it does feel like the use of it should
        be avoided.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Any opinions here?</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">
        <div class="">
          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
            orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
            text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
            word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
            word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
              <div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
                  style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal;
                  border-spacing: 0px;">
                  <div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word;
                    -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
                    after-white-space;">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div class="">Phil</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">@independentid</div>
                        <div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.independentid.com" class="">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
                  style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          </div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Editorial discussion: Attributes or Claims
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+1 to this change, too.

Nick

On 8/31/16 12:20 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> For the next draft, I realized that draft 03 uses a mix of the terms 
> “attribute” and “claims”.  In part this occured because the draft 
> originally came out of SCIM and then we switched to using JWTs.
>
> While the terms are used synonymously, it would probably be less 
> confusing to readers to use one term or the other and to properly 
> define its use. My feeling is that “attribute” fits better as we are 
> saying a SET is a statement of fact from the perspective of the 
> issuer.  The statement about attributes that are not in dispute (x was 
> changed).  This is very different from an access token or an 
> authentication assertion where there is a degree of confidence in the 
> value.
>
> For draft 04, I have revised the draft to consistently use 
> “attributes” while providing an explanation/definition.
>
> I wanted to call your attention to this in advance and hopefully get 
> some discussion.  I would like to make clear that we can switch to 
> “claims” if people feel strongly that consistency with 7519 provided 
> we can all agree to redefine the term “claim” as being factual in a 
> SET.  I can see how people will view simplicity and consistency in 
> different ways here.
>
> In the end, I do not want to spend to much time on this as it doesn’t 
> change SETs normatively. This is just editorial cleanliness and we 
> should avoid too much bike shedding here.
>
> Phil
>
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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    +1 to this change, too.<br>
    <br>
    Nick<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/31/16 12:20 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:BC1A6E0E-E197-4AD2-875B-D0356AEE02A3@oracle.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      For the next draft, I realized that draft 03 uses a mix of the
      terms “attribute” and “claims”.  In part this occured because the
      draft originally came out of SCIM and then we switched to using
      JWTs.
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">While the terms are used synonymously, it would
        probably be less confusing to readers to use one term or the
        other and to properly define its use. My feeling is that
        “attribute” fits better as we are saying a SET is a statement of
        fact from the perspective of the issuer.  The statement about
        attributes that are not in dispute (x was changed).  This is
        very different from an access token or an authentication
        assertion where there is a degree of confidence in the value.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">For draft 04, I have revised the draft to
        consistently use “attributes” while providing an
        explanation/definition.  </div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I wanted to call your attention to this in advance
        and hopefully get some discussion.  I would like to make clear
        that we can switch to “claims” if people feel strongly that
        consistency with 7519 provided we can all agree to redefine the
        term “claim” as being factual in a SET.  I can see how people
        will view simplicity and consistency in different ways here.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">In the end, I do not want to spend to much time on
        this as it doesn’t change SETs normatively. This is just
        editorial cleanliness and we should avoid too much bike shedding
        here.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">
        <div class="">
          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
            orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
            text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
            word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
            word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
              orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
              <div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
                  style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal;
                  border-spacing: 0px;">
                  <div class="" style="word-wrap: break-word;
                    -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
                    after-white-space;">
                    <div class="">
                      <div class="">
                        <div class="">Phil</div>
                        <div class=""><br class="">
                        </div>
                        <div class="">@independentid</div>
                        <div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://www.independentid.com" class="">www.independentid.com</a></div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
                  style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
              <div class=""><br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          </div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Nick Roy <nroy@internet2.edu>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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I'm fine with making a non-normative rationale statement that "exp" isn't i=
ncluded in the set of recommended claims for the reasons Phil stated, as lo=
ng as the text doesn't try to preclude some kinds of events from using it.

                                                       -- Mike

From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roy
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:27 PM
To: id-event@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used

+1 to your assessment of the situation

Nick
On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about "exp". I thought I =
should share with the broader group.

We discussed if "exp" should have any meaning in a SET.  When you look at a=
ccess tokens there are 3 things it is being used for:

1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)
2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the assertion expires

A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in time.  "Token WAS revo=
ked". One could say it is permanent and cannot expire since the fact will n=
ot change.  While we may not want to rule "exp" out, it does feel like the =
use of it should be avoided.

Any opinions here?

Phil

@independentid
www.independentid.com<http://www.independentid.com>
phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>








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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I&#8217;m fine with making a non-norm=
ative rationale statement that &#8220;exp&#8221; isn&#8217;t included in th=
e set of recommended claims for the reasons Phil stated, as long as the
 text doesn&#8217;t try to preclude some kinds of events from using it.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtex=
t"> Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Roy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> id-event@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use of &quot;exp&quot; - recommend SHOULD NO=
T be used<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&#43;1 to your assess=
ment of the situation<br>
<br>
Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones ab=
out &#8220;exp&#8221;. I thought I should share with the broader group.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We discussed if &#8220;exp&#8221; should have any me=
aning in a SET. &nbsp;When you look at access tokens there are 3 things it =
is being used for:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after e=
xp)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Sessions: &nbsp;the token is not valid when the a=
ssertion expires<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in=
 time. &nbsp;&#8220;Token WAS revoked&#8221;. One could say it is permanent=
 and cannot expire since the fact will not change. &nbsp;While we may not w=
ant to rule &#8220;exp&quot; out, it does feel like the use of it should
 be avoided.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any opinions here?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com">www.indepen=
dentid.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@or=
acle.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Editorial discussion:  Attributes or Claims
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From nobody Wed Aug 31 13:30:37 2016
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 13:30:27 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Cc: Nick Roy <nroy@internet2.edu>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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I had wondered if events might reflect a temporary state change that expires=
. I would not preclude it, but inquire if in such cases an access token asse=
rtion is more appropriate rather than an event?

Phil

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wro=
te:
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m fine with making a non-normative rationale statement that =E2=80=
=9Cexp=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t included in the set of recommended claims for t=
he reasons Phil stated, as long as the text doesn=E2=80=99t try to preclude s=
ome kinds of events from using it.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nick Roy
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:27 PM
> To: id-event@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
> =20
> +1 to your assessment of the situation
>=20
> Nick
>=20
> On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
> I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D. I thought I should share with the broader group.
> =20
> We discussed if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D should have any meaning in a SET.  W=
hen you look at access tokens there are 3 things it is being used for:
> =20
> 1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)
> 2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the assertion expires
> =20
> A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in time.  =E2=80=9CToken=
 WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is permanent and cannot expire since=
 the fact will not change.  While we may not want to rule =E2=80=9Cexp" out,=
 it does feel like the use of it should be avoided.
> =20
> Any opinions here?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I had wondered if events might reflect=
 a temporary state change that expires. I would not preclude it, but inquire=
 if in such cases an access token assertion is more appropriate rather than a=
n event?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Aug 3=
1, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">I=E2=80=99m fine with making a non-norm=
ative rationale statement that =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t included i=
n the set of recommended claims for the reasons Phil stated, as long as the
 text doesn=E2=80=99t try to preclude some kinds of events from using it.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></a></p>
<span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">=
 Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:id-event-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nick Roy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">+1 to your assessment o=
f the situation<br>
<br>
Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones abo=
ut =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D. I thought I should share with the broader group.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We discussed if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D should have any=
 meaning in a SET. &nbsp;When you look at access tokens there are 3 things i=
t is being used for:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after ex=
p)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Sessions: &nbsp;the token is not valid when the as=
sertion expires<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in t=
ime. &nbsp;=E2=80=9CToken WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is permanen=
t and cannot expire since the fact will not change. &nbsp;While we may not w=
ant to rule =E2=80=9Cexp" out, it does feel like the use of it should
 be avoided.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any opinions here?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">@independentid<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com">www.independ=
entid.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Id-event mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>


</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:48:41 +0300
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References: <CAN1PkMb+arHmXHtmmHZhCfzBn=bMhR20G=68_K8vvk6-5mWR9g@mail.gmail.com> <FA78C47A-C25F-4529-A2EB-8632E59D65A4@oracle.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com>, id-event@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] SET examples for a healthcare context
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You can specify a recommended direction for the profiles. So, the sub in =
the event stack =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D have a certain set of =
semantics, for parallelism. I think it=E2=80=99s actually a good idea to =
provide that kind of guidance.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 9:29 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sarah,
>=20
> Your examples highlight some issues around =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D that =
are still in a flux. For draft 04, the emerging consensus seems to be to =
use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to be used at the top level as it is already =
defined as a JWT claim.  Yet for some systems, the problem is that =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is not a URI and without an =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
is incomplete.  This becomes problematic then if =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D =
of the event is not the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
.
>=20
> Your examples actually show this - for example =
heart-parallel-auth.json
>=20
> For now, I=E2=80=99m just taking the editorial position that =E2=80=9Csu=
b=E2=80=9D in the envelope or =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the payload is up =
to the profiling specification to decide.  That gives me some worry =
about inconsistency between specs, but I think it may not be that big a =
deal in practice since people will tend to worry about one family of =
events at a time in the context of a single subscriber.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Sarah Squire <sarah@engageidentity.com =
<mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> I've been putting together some examples based on the =
idevent-token-03 draft. You can find them here:
>>=20
>> https://github.com/id-event/examples =
<https://github.com/id-event/examples>
>>=20
>> There are three examples of an idp-to-rp SET - consent, token =
revocation, and userinfo update.
>>=20
>> There are two examples of an rp-to-idp SET - parallel authentication =
and suspected fraud.
>>=20
>> This format seems workable for our use cases. Note that none of these =
include or require "sub" at the top level.
>>=20
>> Sarah
>>=20
>> Sarah Squire
>> Engage Identity
>> http://engageidentity.com =
<http://engageidentity.com/>______________________________________________=
_
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">You can specify a recommended direction for the profiles. So, =
the sub in the event stack =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D have a certain set =
of semantics, for parallelism. I think it=E2=80=99s actually a good idea =
to provide that kind of guidance.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 31, 2016, at 9:29 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Sarah,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your examples highlight =
some issues around =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D that are still in a flux. For =
draft 04, the emerging consensus seems to be to use =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D =
to be used at the top level as it is already defined as a JWT claim. =
&nbsp;Yet for some systems, the problem is that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D is =
not a URI and without an =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D is incomplete. &nbsp;This =
becomes problematic then if =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D of the event is not =
the =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D of the =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Your examples actually =
show this - for example heart-parallel-auth.json</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For now, I=E2=80=99m just taking the =
editorial position that =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the envelope or =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D in the payload is up to the profiling =
specification to decide. &nbsp;That gives me some worry about =
inconsistency between specs, but I think it may not be that big a deal =
in practice since people will tend to worry about one family of events =
at a time in the context of a single subscriber.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:02 AM, Sarah Squire &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sarah@engageidentity.com" =
class=3D"">sarah@engageidentity.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I've been putting together some examples based on the =
idevent-token-03 draft. You can find them here:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/id-event/examples" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">https://github.com/id-event/<wbr =
class=3D"">examples</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are three examples of an idp-to-rp SET - consent, token =
revocation, and userinfo update.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are two examples of an rp-to-idp =
SET - parallel authentication and suspected fraud.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This format seems =
workable for our use cases. Note that none of these include or require =
"sub" at the top level.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Sarah</div><div class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D"">Sarah Squire</div><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D"">Engage Identity</div><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://engageidentity.com/" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://engageidentity.com</a></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
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Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 09:50:18 +0300
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References: <2CD2401D-4FBD-4F39-8722-AB8D8333D856@oracle.com> <f610ce8b-bf3a-1cda-4f14-30a32bd1b519@internet2.edu> <DM2PR0301MB0637557A9F9EC1D93963DC66F5E30@DM2PR0301MB0637.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <DD308F60-04A4-4DE2-9450-895F3FB5E9E9@oracle.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/osEFDP5T2x3qTSw47OcRJaqHJhA>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Nick Roy <nroy@internet2.edu>, "id-event@ietf.org" <id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
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Events should be able to use it just fine, but =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D in =
the envelope doesn=E2=80=99t make a lot of sense in the SET context.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:30 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I had wondered if events might reflect a temporary state change that =
expires. I would not preclude it, but inquire if in such cases an access =
token assertion is more appropriate rather than an event?
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m fine with making a non-normative rationale statement that =
=E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t included in the set of recommended =
claims for the reasons Phil stated, as long as the text doesn=E2=80=99t =
try to preclude some kinds of events from using it.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Nick Roy
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:27 PM
>> To: id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" - recommend SHOULD NOT be used
>> =20
>> +1 to your assessment of the situation
>>=20
>> Nick
>>=20
>> On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> I had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=
=80=9D. I thought I should share with the broader group.
>> =20
>> We discussed if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D should have any meaning in a =
SET.  When you look at access tokens there are 3 things it is being used =
for:
>> =20
>> 1. Validation: is the token valid (not valid after exp)
>> 2. Sessions:  the token is not valid when the assertion expires
>> =20
>> A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in time.  =E2=80=9CTo=
ken WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is permanent and cannot =
expire since the fact will not change.  While we may not want to rule =
=E2=80=9Cexp" out, it does feel like the use of it should be avoided.
>> =20
>> Any opinions here?
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Events should be able to use it just fine, but =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=
=9D in the envelope doesn=E2=80=99t make a lot of sense in the SET =
context.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=E2=80=94=
 Justin</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:30 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I had wondered if events =
might reflect a temporary state change that expires. I would not =
preclude it, but inquire if in such cases an access token assertion is =
more appropriate rather than an event?</div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil</div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Aug 31, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m fine with making a non-normative =
rationale statement that =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t included in =
the set of recommended claims for the reasons Phil stated, as long as =
the text doesn=E2=80=99t try to preclude some kinds of events from using =
it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><span class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Nick Roy<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, August 31, 2016 =
12:27 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use of "exp" =
- recommend SHOULD NOT be used<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">+1 to your assessment of the situation<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Nick<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 8/31/16 12:10 PM, Phil Hunt wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
had an offline email discussion with Mike Jones about =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D=
. I thought I should share with the broader group.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">We discussed if =E2=80=9Cexp=E2=80=9D =
should have any meaning in a SET. &nbsp;When you look at access tokens =
there are 3 things it is being used for:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">1. Validation: is the token valid (not =
valid after exp)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">2. Sessions: &nbsp;the token is not valid =
when the assertion expires<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">A SET however is a statement of a fact at a point in =
time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9CToken WAS revoked=E2=80=9D. One could say it is =
permanent and cannot expire since the fact will not change. &nbsp;While =
we may not want to rule =E2=80=9Cexp" out, it does feel like the use of =
it should be avoided.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Any opinions here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">Id-event =
mailing list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">Id-event mailing list</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a></span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
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