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Subject: [Id-event] secevent - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 100
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Dear Yaron Sheffer,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

secevent Session 1 (2:00:00)
    Monday, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530
    Room Name: Bras Basah size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Security Events
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Yaron Sheffer

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 50
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: saag jsonbis httpbis dispatch oauth tokbind tls acme
 Second Priority: ipsecme sacm ace



People who must be present:
  Yaron Sheffer
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Dick Hardt

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  Please avoid cfrg.
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Mon Oct 23 10:58:02 2017
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Subject: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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All,

I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up =
any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6

Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a =
security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the =
receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called =
receiver).

I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining =
that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate =
processing more than its worth.

There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the =
most unresolved.

Phil


> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the =
transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.
>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next =
to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" =
definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is =
the event time. I see two problems:
>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>> - there can be multiple events
>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short =
term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it =
SHOULD NOT be used?
>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must =
refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the =
conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same =
profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should =
mention that.
>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new =
claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the =
next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.
>> Marius
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>    =
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D> >).
>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 =
weeks,
>>    until Aug. 21.
>>    Thanks,
>>         Dick and Yaron
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Id-event mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">All,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am reviewing the previous feedback =
from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved issues for quick =
discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s=
 comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific =
meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. We should not =
necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be. =
For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events =
processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does =
not have to be the aud is appropriate? &nbsp;I don=E2=80=99t see any =
benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing =
more than its worth.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one =
seemed the most unresolved.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Hello,</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good =
choice here.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last =
sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the =
context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. =
Audience?<br class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions =
"subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br =
class=3D"">The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes =
the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.<br class=3D"">Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be =
nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides the correct =
context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, =
providing conflicting advice.<br class=3D"">Section 2,1, definition of =
"nbf". The definition says that this is the event time. I see two =
problems:<br class=3D"">- the name suggest "not before", not exactly the =
same as event time<br class=3D"">- there can be multiple events<br =
class=3D"">maybe this claim should be dropped?<br class=3D"">Section =
2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution =
to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be =
used?<br class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that =
all events must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions =
we reached the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in =
the same profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this =
definition should mention that.<br class=3D"">Regarding events and =
profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify =
the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br class=3D"">Figure 5. =
Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br =
class=3D"">Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.<br class=3D"">Marius<br class=3D"">On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at =
1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group last call =
on this draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
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ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DR=
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class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<=
a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
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s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&a=
mp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. Even =
if you are perfectly<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the =
draft, please let us know that you support its<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by posting to the =
list.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, =
this last call is open for 3 weeks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until =
Aug. 21.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and =
Yaron<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_____________________________________________=
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
Thread-Index: AQHTTCh6o4xBjT/YGEGMZ+isMbHIYaLxwXhg
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:30:38 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/7_AFIOwt4frObLYuPjygn0LioKg>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 14:38:33 -0700
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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I think "aud" is perfectly fine.

IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is
actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the
event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced
processor.

Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

>
> All,
>
> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up an=
y
> unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>
> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a
> very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. =
We
> should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out
> to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events pro=
cessing to a third
> party (the so called receiver).
>
> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining tha=
t
> a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99t s=
ee any
> benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing mo=
re
> than its worth.
>
> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the
> most unresolved.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e>
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>
> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.
> "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a
> transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should
> be either "receiver" or "audience".
> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the
> transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same
> entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that
> clear.
> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to
> the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub"
> definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the
> event time. I see two problems:
> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
> - there can be multiple events
> maybe this claim should be dropped?
> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term
> solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD
> NOT be used?
> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must refer
> to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusio=
n
> that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is =
a
> stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.
> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to
> uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the nex=
t
> paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required, bu=
t
> that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for
> example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
> Marius
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <
> mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&=
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V9SQ_
> lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfj
> qT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,
>    until Aug. 21.
>    Thanks,
>         Dick and Yaron
>    _______________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; is perfectly fine.<div><br></div><=
div>IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is =
actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the=
 event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsource=
d processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><=
div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</di=
v></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br class=3D"m_585872893674=
058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><=
div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>I am reviewing the previous feedback from=
 WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/co=
nfirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Following up on Marius and Hen=
k=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very s=
pecific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. We shoul=
d not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be.=
 For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events processing =
to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div><br></div><div>I am ha=
ppy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a recei=
ver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see a=
ny benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing m=
ore than its worth.</div><div><br></div><div>There are a few other comments=
 in this thread, but this one seemed the most unresolved.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.bir=
kholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wb=
r>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange=
-newline"><div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty=
le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Hello,</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">to me, the &quot;audience&quot; claim seems to b=
e a good choice here.</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=
=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty=
le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:<=
/span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px">The abstract mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quo=
t;receiver&quot; in the last sentence. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound =
right (that should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don&#39;=
t have a better suggestion. Audience?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 me=
ntions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I think it should be either &quot;receiver&q=
uot; or &quot;audience&quot;.<br>The explanation for figure 1 states that t=
he issuer denotes the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are as=
sumed to be the same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2=
 should make that clear.<br>Figure 3, I think the &quot;sub&quot; claim sho=
uld be nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides the correct co=
ntext. The &quot;iss&quot; and &quot;sub&quot; definitions in 2.1 also touc=
h on this, providing conflicting advice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of &quo=
t;nbf&quot;. The definition says that this is the event time. I see two pro=
blems:<br>- the name suggest &quot;not before&quot;, not exactly the same a=
s event time<br>- there can be multiple events<br>maybe this claim should b=
e dropped?<br>Section 2.1, definition of &quot;exp&quot;. Omitting this cla=
im is the short term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that =
and that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br>Section 2.1, definition of &quot;events&=
quot;. It states that all events must refer to the same logical event. Late=
ly in discussions we reached the conclusion that all events in a SET should=
 be defined in the same profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think t=
his definition should mention that.<br>Regarding events and profiles. There=
 was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify the profile. I thin=
k we need to discuss that.<br>Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be bet=
ter, especially that the next paragraph mentions that signatures or encrypt=
ion should be used.<br>Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that &quot;n=
once&quot; is also required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issue=
d at the token endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the=
 whole paragraph.<br>Marius<br>On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ie=
tf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mailto<wbr>:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
This is to announce working group last call on this draft<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__da=
tatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;=
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Y&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_=
blank">https://urldefense.<wbr>proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-<wbr>3A__dat=
atracker.ietf.org_doc_<wbr>draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-<wbr>2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDw=
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//<wbr>urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/<wbr>url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.<wbr=
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receiver =
could be improved.

I propose to change from:
   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.

To:
   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>=20
> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is =
actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and =
the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current =
outsourced processor.
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> All,
>=20
> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up =
any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a =
security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the =
receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called =
receiver).
>=20
> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining =
that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate =
processing more than its worth.
>=20
> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the =
most unresolved.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hello,
>>=20
>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>=20
>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>=20
>> Henk
>>=20
>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the =
transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.
>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, =
next to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and =
"sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting =
advice.
>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is =
the event time. I see two problems:
>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>>> - there can be multiple events
>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short =
term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it =
SHOULD NOT be used?
>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must =
refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the =
conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same =
profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should =
mention that.
>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new =
claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that =
the next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be =
used.
>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.
>>> Marius
>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>    =
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D> >).
>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 =
weeks,
>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>    Thanks,
>>>         Dick and Yaron
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>>=20
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>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_9B8748E1-DC7E-4859-A5C2-FCDCA74EA5AE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of =
a receiver could be improved.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I propose to change from:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">To:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a =
different</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
claim.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I think "aud" is perfectly fine.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">IMO it should make no difference for =
the Transmitter that the event is actually handled by an outsourced =
entity, the RP trusts that entity and the event is generated and =
targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced =
processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 =
AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">All,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be =
bringing up any unresolved issues for quick =
discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s=
 comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific =
meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. We should not =
necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be. =
For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events =
processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does =
not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see any =
benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing =
more than its worth.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one =
seemed the most unresolved.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Hello,</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">to me, the "audience" claim =
seems to be a good choice here.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span>=
<br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Henk</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D"">The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last =
sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the =
context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. =
Audience?<br class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions =
"subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br =
class=3D"">The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes =
the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.<br class=3D"">Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be =
nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides the correct =
context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, =
providing conflicting advice.<br class=3D"">Section 2,1, definition of =
"nbf". The definition says that this is the event time. I see two =
problems:<br class=3D"">- the name suggest "not before", not exactly the =
same as event time<br class=3D"">- there can be multiple events<br =
class=3D"">maybe this claim should be dropped?<br class=3D"">Section =
2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution =
to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be =
used?<br class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that =
all events must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions =
we reached the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in =
the same profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this =
definition should mention that.<br class=3D"">Regarding events and =
profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify =
the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br class=3D"">Figure 5. =
Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br =
class=3D"">Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.<br class=3D"">Marius<br class=3D"">On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at =
1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mailto<wbr class=3D"">:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group =
last call on this draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
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s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://urldefense.<wbr =
class=3D"">proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-<wbr =
class=3D"">3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_<wbr =
class=3D"">draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr =
class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_<wbr class=3D"">lw_<wbr =
class=3D"">LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;<wbr class=3D"">s=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfj<wbr =
class=3D"">qT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://<wbr =
class=3D"">urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/<wbr =
class=3D"">url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;<wbr class=3D"">c=3D<wbr=
 class=3D"">RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr =
class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_<wbr class=3D"">lw_<wbr =
class=3D"">LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;<wbr class=3D"">s=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfj<wbr =
class=3D"">qT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;).<br=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. =
Even if you are perfectly<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the =
draft, please let us know that you support its<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by posting to the =
list.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, =
this last call is open for 3 weeks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until =
Aug. 21.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and =
Yaron<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;___________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">____________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
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class=3D"">TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">htt<wbr class=3D"">ps://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr =
class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_<wbr class=3D"">lw_<wbr =
class=3D"">LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;<wbr =
class=3D"">s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_<wbr =
class=3D"">TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt=
8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr =
class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_<wbr class=3D"">lw_<wbr =
class=3D"">LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;<wbr =
class=3D"">s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_<wbr =
class=3D"">TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Id-event mailing =
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nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr =
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class=3D"">TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr =
class=3D"">wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_<wbr class=3D"">lw_<wbr =
class=3D"">LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;<wbr =
class=3D"">s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_<wbr =
class=3D"">TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D</a><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
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class=3D""></span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
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<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 15:58:28 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.

Nothing needs to change here IMO.

Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receiver
> could be improved.
>
> I propose to change from:
>
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method.
>
>
> To:
>
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>
>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>
> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is
> actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and t=
he
> event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourc=
ed
> processor.
>
> Marius
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up
>> any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>
>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has
>> a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definitio=
n.
>> We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns
>> out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced event=
s processing to a
>> third party (the so called receiver).
>>
>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining
>> that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=
=99t see
>> any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processi=
ng
>> more than its worth.
>>
>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the
>> most unresolved.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.
>> de> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>
>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>
>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.
>> "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a
>> transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should
>> be either "receiver" or "audience".
>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the
>> transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the sam=
e
>> entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that
>> clear.
>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to
>> the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub"
>> definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the
>> event time. I see two problems:
>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>> - there can be multiple events
>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term
>> solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD
>> NOT be used?
>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must refe=
r
>> to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusi=
on
>> that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is=
 a
>> stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.
>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim t=
o
>> uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the
>> next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required,
>> but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint fo=
r
>> example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
>> Marius
>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <
>> mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__
>> datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3D
>> DwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5b
>> iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4
>> lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw=
&e=3D
>>      <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?
>> u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dseceven
>> t-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057
>> SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D
>> UUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9M
>> d1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,
>>    until Aug. 21.
>>    Thanks,
>>         Dick and Yaron
>>    _______________________________________________
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>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg
>> aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE
>> ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D
>> jX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D     <https://
>> urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_
>> mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P
>> QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe
>> 4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D
>> jX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D >
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>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuU
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8o&e=3D>
>>
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>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; should point to the Receiver, the =
outsourcing is irrelevant.<div><br></div><div>Nothing needs to change here =
IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It seems reasonable to further cl=
arify that the definition of a receiver could be improved.<div><br></div><d=
iv>I propose to change from:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_5224536889703988085n=
ewpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>To:</div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441=
895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre><pre c=
lass=3D"m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      entity than that described by th=
e =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.</pre><div><br></div></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_5224536889703988085Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div=
><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@inde=
pendentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_5224536889703988085=
Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; is=
 perfectly fine.<div><br></div><div>IMO it should make no difference for th=
e Transmitter that the event is actually handled by an outsourced entity, t=
he RP trusts that entity and the event is generated and targeted to the RP =
and not to the current outsourced processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_5224536889703988085gmail_sig=
nature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br class=3D"m_522453688970=
3988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style=3D"wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>I am reviewing the p=
revious feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved issues fo=
r quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Following=
 up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=
=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domai=
n definition. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it =
often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsour=
ced events processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text e=
xplaining that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?=C2=A0=
 I don=E2=80=99t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could c=
omplicate processing more than its worth.</div><div><br></div><div>There ar=
e a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the most unresol=
ved.</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkh=
olz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_5224536889703=
988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;displa=
y:inline!important">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">to me, =
the &quot;audience&quot; claim seems to be a good choice here.</span><br st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:no=
ne;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:=
inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On 08/02/20=
17 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The abstra=
ct mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;receiver&quot; in the last sentenc=
e. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound right (that should be used in the co=
ntext of a transmitter), but I don&#39;t have a better suggestion. Audience=
?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I thi=
nk it should be either &quot;receiver&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.<br>The=
 explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter. I=
f the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then th=
e transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>Figure 3=
, I think the &quot;sub&quot; claim should be nested in the event, next to =
the issuer that provides the correct context. The &quot;iss&quot; and &quot=
;sub&quot; definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting adv=
ice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of &quot;nbf&quot;. The definition says tha=
t this is the event time. I see two problems:<br>- the name suggest &quot;n=
ot before&quot;, not exactly the same as event time<br>- there can be multi=
ple events<br>maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>Section 2.1, definitio=
n of &quot;exp&quot;. Omitting this claim is the short term solution to the=
 confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br>S=
ection 2.1, definition of &quot;events&quot;. It states that all events mus=
t refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the con=
clusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, whi=
ch is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.<=
br>Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim t=
o uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br>Figure=
 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next paragr=
aph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br>Section 4.5, =
second paragraph. Mentions that &quot;nonce&quot; is also required, but tha=
t is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for example =
will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.<br>Marius<br>On Mo=
n, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_522=
4536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto<wbr>:yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This is to annou=
nce working group last call on this draft<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(<a href=3D"=
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r>e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&gt;).<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Please send your com=
ments to the list. Even if you are perfectly<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0happy wit=
h the draft, please let us know that you support its<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0p=
ublication as-is by posting to the list.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Because of th=
e summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0until Aug. 21.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Dick and Yaron<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0_______________=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.

If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), =
the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.  =
Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the =
traditional JWT method which suggests the security domain the event is =
for.  For example, a web site relying party does not have the capability =
to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed =
architecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of =
Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =20

The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can =
read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to =
handle or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.=20

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is =
irrelevant.
>=20
> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>=20
> Marius
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a =
receiver could be improved.
>=20
> I propose to change from:
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method.
>=20
> To:
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi=
5itJHRai0&s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>=20
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>=20
>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event =
is actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity =
and the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current =
outsourced processor.
>>=20
>> Marius
>>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> All,
>>=20
>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing =
up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned =
that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied =
to a security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is =
the receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP =
(=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third =
party (the so called receiver).
>>=20
>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining =
that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate =
processing more than its worth.
>>=20
>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed =
the most unresolved.
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello,
>>>=20
>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>=20
>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>=20
>>> Henk
>>>=20
>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the =
transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.
>>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, =
next to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and =
"sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting =
advice.
>>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is =
the event time. I see two problems:
>>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>>>> - there can be multiple events
>>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short =
term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it =
SHOULD NOT be used?
>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must =
refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the =
conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same =
profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should =
mention that.
>>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new =
claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that =
the next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be =
used.
>>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.
>>>> Marius
>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>>    =
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D>     =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D> >).
>>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 =
weeks,
>>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>    =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_=
LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDn=
vA&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw=
_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D>     =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw=
_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw=
_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_=
LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDn=
vA&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw=
_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_=
LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDn=
vA&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw=
_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dqgzi6hIQUdXUCZ=
u3X2lrQFAdGZO2O9szzwPah2M8LX0&s=3Dkr9e2Ob_q0g5BinjBOLJAjrZeWIcrCNx9O1jax-B=
s8o&e=3D>
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXo=
RtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&s=3D7M0OleTd4BpCbNMHkA9Vif8ucznK2XkdYp7wB0zI3=
N0&e=3D=20


--Apple-Mail=_E1C8445F-0968-490B-B79B-B78E8D13A936
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with =
distributed architectures.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted =
(using JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" =
can read it. &nbsp;Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be =
interpreted by the traditional JWT method which suggests the security =
domain the event is for. &nbsp;For example, a web site relying party =
does not have the capability to process (or issue) events itself (eg. =
because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns =
another entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can =
read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to =
handle or worse, it would require sharing of private =
keys.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing =
is irrelevant.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Nothing=
 needs to change here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 =
PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">It seems reasonable to further =
clarify that the definition of a receiver could be improved.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I propose to change =
from:</div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"m_5224536889703988085newpage" =
style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=
   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">To:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085newpage" =
style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=
   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a =
different</pre><pre class=3D"m_5224536889703988085newpage" =
style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=
      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
claim.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"m_5224536889703988085Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><=
div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5=
BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6G=
Eeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5">
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I think "aud" is perfectly =
fine.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">IMO it should =
make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is actually =
handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the event =
is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced =
processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 =
AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newlin=
e"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">All,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be =
bringing up any unresolved issues for quick =
discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s=
 comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific =
meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. We should not =
necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be. =
For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events =
processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does =
not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see any =
benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing =
more than its worth.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one =
seemed the most unresolved.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newlin=
e"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Hello,</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">to me, the "audience" claim =
seems to be a good choice here.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span>=
<br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Henk</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;flo=
at:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" =
class=3D"">The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last =
sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the =
context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. =
Audience?<br class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions =
"subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br =
class=3D"">The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes =
the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.<br class=3D"">Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be =
nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides the correct =
context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, =
providing conflicting advice.<br class=3D"">Section 2,1, definition of =
"nbf". The definition says that this is the event time. I see two =
problems:<br class=3D"">- the name suggest "not before", not exactly the =
same as event time<br class=3D"">- there can be multiple events<br =
class=3D"">maybe this claim should be dropped?<br class=3D"">Section =
2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution =
to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be =
used?<br class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that =
all events must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions =
we reached the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in =
the same profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this =
definition should mention that.<br class=3D"">Regarding events and =
profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify =
the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br class=3D"">Figure 5. =
Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br =
class=3D"">Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.<br class=3D"">Marius<br class=3D"">On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at =
1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"">mailto<wbr class=3D"">:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group =
last call on this draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
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vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpo<wbr =
class=3D"">int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__<wbr =
class=3D"">datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft<wbr =
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class=3D"">9u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
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s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://url<wbr =
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class=3D"">u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.<wbr =
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 =
class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>&gt;).<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your =
comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the draft, please let us know =
that you support its<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is =
by posting to the list.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the =
summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until Aug. 21.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and =
Yaron<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;___________________________<wbr =
class=3D"">____________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Id-event =
mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
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class=3D"m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&=
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Nat Sakimura <sakimura@gmail.com>, "M.Lizar@OCG" <m.lizar@openconsentgroup.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/3vY8Llx6_b1lj9aQXkjdbEJNtHk>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/x0EDr0Hc_JMZ3zMS3tXHdYp6UJs>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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From nobody Mon Oct 23 17:05:44 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 00:05:38 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/_2BKB26AHqwHIlKLNxgtyQO3H7E>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:47:25 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
>
> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE),
> the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.  Re=
gardless,
> =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT method=
 which suggests
> the security domain the event is for.  For example, a web site relying
> party does not have the capability to process (or issue) events itself (e=
g.
> because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns another
> entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter).
>
> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the
> =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make it impossib=
le to for another
> server to handle or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.
>

The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an
endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify
an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP
does not need access to the private key at all.

I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agree
it is totally relevant for the RP,



> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant=
.
>
> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>
> Marius
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receiver
>> could be improved.
>>
>> I propose to change from:
>>
>>    Event Receiver
>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>       distribution method.
>>
>>
>> To:
>>
>>    Event Receiver
>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>>
>>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi=
5itJHRai0&s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>
>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is
>> actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and =
the
>> event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsour=
ced
>> processor.
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up
>>> any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>>
>>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has
>>> a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definiti=
on.
>>> We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turn=
s
>>> out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced even=
ts processing to a
>>> third party (the so called receiver).
>>>
>>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining
>>> that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=
=80=99t see
>>> any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate process=
ing
>>> more than its worth.
>>>
>>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the
>>> most unresolved.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.
>>> de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>
>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>
>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.
>>> "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of =
a
>>> transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it shoul=
d
>>> be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the
>>> transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the sa=
me
>>> entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that
>>> clear.
>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next t=
o
>>> the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub"
>>> definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the
>>> event time. I see two problems:
>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>>> - there can be multiple events
>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term
>>> solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOUL=
D
>>> NOT be used?
>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must
>>> refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the
>>> conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profi=
le,
>>> which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention
>>> that.
>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim
>>> to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the
>>> next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required,
>>> but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint f=
or
>>> example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
>>> Marius
>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <
>>> mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat
>>> atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DD
>>> wIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi
>>> RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4l
>>> vS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw=
&e=3D
>>>      <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u
>>> =3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-
>>> 2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb
>>> K10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV
>>> 9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl
>>> 6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,
>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>    Thanks,
>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga
>>> WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi
>>> vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfA
>>> uUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D     <ht
>>> tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3D
>>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0
>>> FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXE
>>> ZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY
>>> &s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY
>>> &s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dqgzi6hIQUdXUC=
Zu3X2lrQFAdGZO2O9szzwPah2M8LX0&s=3Dkr9e2Ob_q0g5BinjBOLJAjrZeWIcrCNx9O1jax-B=
s8o&e=3D>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_
> tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&s=3D7M0OleTd4BpCbNMHkA9Vif8ucznK2XkdYp7wB0zI3N0&e=3D
>
>
>

--001a11427c389a6cf6055c4049b8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with di=
stributed architectures.</div><div><br></div><div>If an Event Stream requir=
es that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypt=
ed so the =E2=80=9Creceiver&quot; can read it.=C2=A0 Regardless, =E2=80=9Ca=
ud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT method which sugge=
sts the security domain the event is for.=C2=A0 For example, a web site rel=
ying party does not have the capability to process (or issue) events itself=
 (eg. because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns ano=
ther entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encryp=
ted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity ca=
n read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to handl=
e or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.=C2=A0</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>The RP controls the configuration of the strea=
m, so they can specify an endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver =
and they can also specify an encryption key that is controlled by the outso=
urced receiver. The RP does not need access to the private key at all.</div=
><div><br></div><div>I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or =
to this spec. I agree it is totally relevant for the RP,</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div><br></div><div><span class=3D""><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div=
><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@inde=
pendentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oc=
t 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-newline"><=
/div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&q=
uot; should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.<div><br><=
/div><div>Nothing needs to change here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_8638809138429705438gmail_sign=
ature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It seems reasona=
ble to further clarify that the definition of a receiver could be improved.=
<div><br></div><div>I propose to change from:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_863=
8809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333330=
15441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>To:</div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   Event Recei=
ver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre><pre c=
lass=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-si=
ze:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      entity than=
 that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.</pre><div><br></div></d=
iv><div><div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_863880913842=
9705438m_5224536889703988085Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:sepa=
rate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Ident=
ity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXX=
B1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></di=
v></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_8638809138429705438h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_86=
38809138429705438m_5224536889703988085Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div =
dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; is perfectly fine.<div><br></div><div>I=
MO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is actua=
lly handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the even=
t is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced pro=
cessor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div c=
lass=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085gmail_signature" data-sma=
rtmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br class=
=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-int=
erchange-newline"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>All,</div><=
div><br></div><div>I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will =
be bringing up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=
=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s c=
omment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meani=
ng and is often tied to a security domain definition. We should not necessa=
rily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be. For example =
a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third pa=
rty (the so called receiver).</div><div><br></div><div>I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does not =
have to be the aud is appropriate?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see any benefit to=
 having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing more than its =
worth.</div><div><br></div><div>There are a few other comments in this thre=
ad, but this one seemed the most unresolved.</div><div><br></div><div>Phil<=
/div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 3, =
2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer=
.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889=
703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;dis=
play:inline!important">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">to m=
e, the &quot;audience&quot; claim seems to be a good choice here.</span><br=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float=
:none;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;displ=
ay:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On 08/02=
/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite" styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The abstr=
act mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;receiver&quot; in the last senten=
ce. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound right (that should be used in the c=
ontext of a transmitter), but I don&#39;t have a better suggestion. Audienc=
e?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I th=
ink it should be either &quot;receiver&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.<br>Th=
e explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter. =
If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then t=
he transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>Figure =
3, I think the &quot;sub&quot; claim should be nested in the event, next to=
 the issuer that provides the correct context. The &quot;iss&quot; and &quo=
t;sub&quot; definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting ad=
vice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of &quot;nbf&quot;. The definition says th=
at this is the event time. I see two problems:<br>- the name suggest &quot;=
not before&quot;, not exactly the same as event time<br>- there can be mult=
iple events<br>maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>Section 2.1, definiti=
on of &quot;exp&quot;. Omitting this claim is the short term solution to th=
e confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br>=
Section 2.1, definition of &quot;events&quot;. It states that all events mu=
st refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the co=
nclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, wh=
ich is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.=
<br>Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim =
to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br>Figur=
e 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next parag=
raph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br>Section 4.5,=
 second paragraph. Mentions that &quot;nonce&quot; is also required, but th=
at is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for example=
 will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.<br>Marius<br>On M=
on, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><s=
pan class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto<wbr>:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This is to announce working group l=
ast call on this draft<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2=
Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUyd=
IFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjl=
KfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://urlde=
fense.proofpo<wbr>int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat<wbr>atracker.ietf.org_do=
c_draft-<wbr>2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DD<wbr>wIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ<wbr>cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5bi<wbr>RrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4<wbr>C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4l<wbr>vS7pQLXEZEWA2=
F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT<wbr>98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99<wbr>u5-Ojw4Fw&am=
p;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872=
893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0&lt=
;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE=
ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">https://urld<wbr>efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u<wbr>=3Dht=
tps-3A__datatracker.ietf.or<wbr>g_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-<wbr>2Dtoken_=
&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC<wbr>gaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb<wbr>K=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP<wbr>EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFE=
V<wbr>9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7b<wbr>fAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54I=
Rl<wbr>6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_86388091384297054=
38m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>&gt;).<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Please send your comments to the list. Even=
 if you are perfectly<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0happy with the draft, please let=
 us know that you support its<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0publication as-is by pos=
ting to the list.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Because of the summer holidays, this=
 last call is open for 3 weeks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0until Aug. 21.<br>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0D=
ick and Yaron<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0___________________________<wbr>________=
____________<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:47:42 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20

Phil

> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wordsmithed=
 by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the reply t=
o Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
> =20
>                                                                 Thanks Phi=
l and all,
>                                                                 -- Mike
> =20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org]  On Behalf Of Brian Camp=
bell
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
> =20
> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a s=
tandard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>=20
> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by sayi=
ng it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be accept=
ed for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say that n=
bf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But=
 don't change the meaning.
>=20
> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the n=
bf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined in=
 Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to reference nb=
f.=20
> =20
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding S=
ET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that redefini=
tion was appropriate.
> =20
> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate t=
hat an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date=
 which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is=
 useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier=
 than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through=
 an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).
> =20
> The definition from JWT is:
> 4.1.5.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>=20
> =20
> =20
>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JWT
>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers MAY
>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to
>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
> =20
> =20
> As defined in SET:
>    nbf
>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have
>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as
>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example
>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
> =20
> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20
> =20
> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
> definition:
> =20
> toe
>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event is b=
elieved to have
>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is OPTI=
ONAL.
>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed=
 to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> nbf
>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD
>       be ignored.
> =20
> =20
> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>=20
> =20
>=20
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged=
 material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, di=
stribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you have rece=
ived this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-=
mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your computer. Tha=
nk you.
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
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=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br><=
br>Phil</div><div><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Annabelle and I agreed w=
ith this proposed change (as correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-p=
erson review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comment=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks Phil and all,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Brian Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@o=
racle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">i=
d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">+1 to SET defining a t=
ime of event claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And who d=
oesn't like a claim named "toe"?
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">However, the text ther=
e for nbf is still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignored,=
 which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from R=
FC 7519. It would be more appropriate
 to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention n=
bf at all. But don't change the meaning.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7=
519]", which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate=
, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no r=
eason to reference nbf.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a questio=
n came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and w=
hether that redefinition was appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Tran=
smitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified=
 date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET.=
 In particular this is useful in cases
 where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time o=
f issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrati=
ve review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<h4 style=3D"mso-line-height-alt:0pt"><a name=3D"m_4818440949900985753_secti=
on-4.1.5"></a><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-=
3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEiv=
zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D=
00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><spa=
n style=3D"mso-bookmark:&quot;m_4818440949900985753_section-4\.1\.5&quot;"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bla=
ck;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</span></span><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:&quo=
t;m_4818440949900985753_section-4\.1\.5&quot;"></span></a><span style=3D"mso=
-bookmark:&quot;m_4818440949900985753_section-4\.1\.5&quot;"></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">.&nbsp;
 "nbf" (Not Before) Claim<o:p></o:p></span></h4>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before wh=
ich the JWT<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The processing o=
f the "nbf"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or=
 equal to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.&nbsp; I=
mplementers MAY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few m=
inutes, to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be a number c=
ontaining a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As defined in SET:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2=
D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&am=
p;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMC=
BjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62=
w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number who=
se value is a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the context of the=
 SET token it SHALL be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interpreted to mean a date in which the e=
vent is believed to have<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the past) or will occur in t=
he future.&nbsp; Note: there<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still s=
maller than "iat" such as<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when it took an extended time for a SET t=
o be issued (for example<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; This claim i=
s OPTIONAL.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will cause=
 confusion.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal is to register a different claim name su=
ch as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<o:p></o:p></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>toe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2=
D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&am=
p;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMC=
BjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62=
w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number who=
se value is a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; The value is the date=
 and time in which the event is believed to have<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will occur in th=
e future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>nbf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This claim is not used in SET Events. If=
 asserted, the value SHOULD<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ignored.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Ident=
ity Cloud Services Architect<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
_blank">www.independentid.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?

Phil

> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
>>=20
>> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), t=
he SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.  Regard=
less, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT met=
hod which suggests the security domain the event is for.  For example, a web=
 site relying party does not have the capability to process (or issue) event=
s itself (eg. because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assi=
gns another entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =20
>>=20
>> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=80=
=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET w=
hich will make it impossible to for another server to handle or worse, it wo=
uld require sharing of private keys.=20
>=20
> The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an en=
dpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an e=
ncryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does not=
 need access to the private key at all.
>=20
> I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agre=
e it is totally relevant for the RP,
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevan=
t.
>>>=20
>>> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receive=
r could be improved.
>>>>=20
>>>> I propose to change from:
>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>>       distribution method.
>>>>=20
>>>> To:
>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>>>>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is=
 actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the=
 event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced=
 processor.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing u=
p any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned tha=
t =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a s=
ecurity domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the receive=
r though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) h=
as outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called receiver).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining=
 that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate proces=
sing more than its worth.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed th=
e most unresolved.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>>>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.=
 "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a tr=
ansmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>>>>>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it s=
hould be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>>>>>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the tra=
nsmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entit=
y, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.
>>>>>>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, ne=
xt to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" defi=
nitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>>>>>>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is t=
he event time. I see two problems:
>>>>>>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time=

>>>>>>>> - there can be multiple events
>>>>>>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short t=
erm solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD=
 NOT be used?
>>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must=
 refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the concl=
usion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which i=
s a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.
>>>>>>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new cl=
aim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>>>>>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that t=
he next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>>>>>>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also requir=
ed, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint fo=
r example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.c=
om <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>>>>>>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54=
IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3D=
DwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=
=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>>>>>>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly=

>>>>>>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>>>>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>>>>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 wee=
ks,
>>>>>>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
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pSDnvA&e=3D     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
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TXORUpSDnvA&e=3D >
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>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_=
lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSD=
nvA&e=3D=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_l=
w_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDn=
vA&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRt=
aXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&s=3D7M0OleTd4BpCbNMHkA9Vif8ucznK2XkdYp7wB0zI3N0&e=
=3D=20
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-E8FB1075-D3B6-446C-A25F-EFFB9668A313
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok. But you raised the concern. Are yo=
u withdrawing it?<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Mar=
ius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2=
017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word"><div>It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectu=
res.</div><div><br></div><div>If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to b=
e encrypted (using JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Crece=
iver" can read it.&nbsp; Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpr=
eted by the traditional JWT method which suggests the security domain the ev=
ent is for.&nbsp; For example, a web site relying party does not have the ca=
pability to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed a=
rchitecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of Event Rec=
eiver (or Transmitter). &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The problem being th=
at If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then o=
nly the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make it imp=
ossible to for another server to handle or worse, it would require sharing o=
f private keys.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The RP con=
trols the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an endpoint that b=
elongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an encryption ke=
y that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does not need access=
 to the private key at all.</div><div><br></div><div>I still think it is irr=
elevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agree it is totally relevant f=
or the RP,</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div><span class=3D""><di=
v>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><sp=
an class=3D"m_8638809138429705438Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:=
separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Ide=
ntity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4=
zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&amp;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&amp;=
e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oct=
 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br class=3D"m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-newline"></div=
></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">I think "aud" should poi=
nt to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.<div><br></div><div>Nothin=
g needs to change here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D=
"all"><div><div class=3D"m_8638809138429705438gmail_signature" data-smartmai=
l=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It seems reasonable t=
o further clarify that the definition of a receiver could be improved.<div><=
br></div><div>I propose to change from:</div><div><pre class=3D"m_8638809138=
429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>To:</div><div><pre=
 class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   Event Receiver=

      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre><pre cl=
ass=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage" style=3D"font-size=
:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      entity than th=
at described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.</pre><div><br></div></div><=
div><div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085A=
pple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border=
-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><=
div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</di=
v><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNK=
e4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsP=
FKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_8638809138429705438h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius S=
curtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_863880=
9138429705438m_5224536889703988085Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">I think "aud" is perfectly fine.<div><br></div><div>IMO it should make=
 no difference for the Transmitter that the event is actually handled by an o=
utsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the event is generated and t=
argeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced processor.</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_863880913842=
9705438m_5224536889703988085gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatu=
re">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br class=3D"m_=
8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchang=
e-newline"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>All,</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringi=
ng up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am c=
oncerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often=
 tied to a security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is=
 the receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Cau=
d=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called=
 receiver).</div><div><br></div><div>I am happy with the current claim set, b=
ut maybe some text explaining that a receiver does not have to be the aud is=
 appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see any benefit to having a receiver cla=
im as this could complicate processing more than its worth.</div><div><br></=
div><div>There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed t=
he most unresolved.</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div><=
br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birk=
holz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div>=
<br class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038A=
pple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Hello,</spa=
n><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><b=
r style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good ch=
oice here.</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:no=
rmal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;displa=
y:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;f=
ont-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On 08/02/2017 11:45=
 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-=
space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The abstract mentions "issu=
er" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (th=
at should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have a bette=
r suggestion. Audience?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscri=
ber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br>The explanati=
on for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter. If the issue=
r and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then the transmitte=
r definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>Figure 3, I think the=
 "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides=
 the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on t=
his, providing conflicting advice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The d=
efinition says that this is the event time. I see two problems:<br>- the nam=
e suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time<br>- there can be=
 multiple events<br>maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>Section 2.1, defi=
nition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution to the confu=
sion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br>Section 2=
.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must refer to the same=
 logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusion that all eve=
nts in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is a stronger requ=
irement. I think this definition should mention that.<br>Regarding events an=
d profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify the=
 profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br>Figure 5. Maybe a signed examp=
le would be better, especially that the next paragraph mentions that signatu=
res or encryption should be used.<br>Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions=
 that "nonce" is also required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens iss=
ued at the token endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop th=
e whole paragraph.<br>Marius<br>On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_522453=
6889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mail=
to<wbr>:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This i=
s to announce working group last call on this draft<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.=
ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWw=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SI=
T98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">https://urldefense.proofpo<wbr>int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat<wbr=
>atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-<wbr>2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DD<wbr>w=
IGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ<wbr>cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5bi=
<wbr>RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4<wbr>C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4l=
<wbr>vS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT<wbr>98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99=
<wbr>u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_52245368897=
03988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIG=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7=
bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://urld<wbr>efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u<wb=
r>=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.or<wbr>g_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-<wbr>2D=
token_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC<wbr>gaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb<=
wbr>K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP<wbr>EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUy=
dIFEV<wbr>9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7b<wbr>fAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W=
54IRl<wbr>6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_863880913842970=
5438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>&gt;).<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. Even=
 if you are perfectly<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the draft, please let u=
s know that you support its<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by postin=
g to the list.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, this las=
t call is open for 3 weeks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until Aug. 21.<br>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and=
 Yaron<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;___________________________<wbr>________________=
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uUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
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&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
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C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI=
8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">ht<wbr>tps://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<w=
br>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0<wbr>FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;<wbr>m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXE<wbr>ZEW=
A2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI8umt<wbr>t8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnv<wbr>A&a=
mp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872=
893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;<br>____________________=
__________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mail=
to:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</=
a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
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IGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI8umt=
t8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<w=
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an class=3D"m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!import=
ant">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:=
inline!important">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.or=
g" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" targe=
t=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"https://urldefense=
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DwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r<wbr>=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj<wbr>WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_l<wbr>w=
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:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"></span></div><=
/blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br></div><br>________________=
______________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-e=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:52:49 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:

"The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should be
either "receiver" or "audience"."



Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?
>
> Phil
>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
>>
>> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE),
>> the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.  R=
egardless,
>> =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT metho=
d which suggests
>> the security domain the event is for.  For example, a web site relying
>> party does not have the capability to process (or issue) events itself (=
eg.
>> because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns anothe=
r
>> entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter).
>>
>> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the
>> =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make it impossi=
ble to for another
>> server to handle or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.
>>
>
> The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an
> endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specif=
y
> an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP
> does not need access to the private key at all.
>
> I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I
> agree it is totally relevant for the RP,
>
>
>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49=
Xsuqtk5xM&s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevan=
t.
>>
>> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receive=
r
>>> could be improved.
>>>
>>> I propose to change from:
>>>
>>>    Event Receiver
>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>       distribution method.
>>>
>>>
>>> To:
>>>
>>>    Event Receiver
>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>>>
>>>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi=
RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJL=
i5itJHRai0&s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>>
>>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is
>>> actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and=
 the
>>> event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsou=
rced
>>> processor.
>>>
>>> Marius
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up
>>>> any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>>>
>>>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that=
 =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D
>>>> has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain
>>>> definition. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though =
it
>>>> often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has ou=
tsourced events
>>>> processing to a third party (the so called receiver).
>>>>
>>>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining
>>>> that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=
=80=99t see
>>>> any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate proces=
sing
>>>> more than its worth.
>>>>
>>>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the
>>>> most unresolved.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <
>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>>
>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence.
>>>> "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of=
 a
>>>> transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it
>>>> should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the
>>>> transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the s=
ame
>>>> entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make tha=
t
>>>> clear.
>>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next
>>>> to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub"
>>>> definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the
>>>> event time. I see two problems:
>>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
>>>> - there can be multiple events
>>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short ter=
m
>>>> solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOU=
LD
>>>> NOT be used?
>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must
>>>> refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the
>>>> conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same prof=
ile,
>>>> which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mentio=
n
>>>> that.
>>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim
>>>> to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the
>>>> next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required,
>>>> but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint =
for
>>>> example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
>>>> Marius
>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<
>>>> mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat
>>>> atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwI
>>>> GaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr
>>>> KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS
>>>> 7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&=
e=3D
>>>>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D
>>>> https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2
>>>> Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK
>>>> 10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9
>>>> SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6
>>>> cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,
>>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga
>>>> WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi
>>>> vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfA
>>>> uUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D     <ht
>>>> tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.
>>>> org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ
>>>> YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW
>>>> wlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuU
>>>> Y&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY
>>>> &s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY
>>>> &s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dqgzi6hIQUdXU=
CZu3X2lrQFAdGZO2O9szzwPah2M8LX0&s=3Dkr9e2Ob_q0g5BinjBOLJAjrZeWIcrCNx9O1jax-=
Bs8o&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai
>> 0&s=3D7M0OleTd4BpCbNMHkA9Vif8ucznK2XkdYp7wB0zI3N0&e=3D
>>
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:<di=
v><br></div><div>&quot;The abstract mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;r=
eceiver&quot; in the last sentence. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound rig=
ht (that should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don&#39;t h=
ave a better suggestion. Audience?</div><div>The last paragraph of section =
1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I think it should be either &quot;receiv=
er&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok. But you raised the concern. Are yo=
u withdrawing it?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>Phi=
l</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:=
47 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>It=E2=80=
=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (usin=
g JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver&quot; can r=
ead it.=C2=A0 Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by th=
e traditional JWT method which suggests the security domain the event is fo=
r.=C2=A0 For example, a web site relying party does not have the capability=
 to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed architec=
ture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of Event Receiver =
(or Transmitter). =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The problem being that If=
 the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only=
 the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make it impos=
sible to for another server to handle or worse, it would require sharing of=
 private keys.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The RP con=
trols the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an endpoint that=
 belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an encryption=
 key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does not need ac=
cess to the private key at all.</div><div><br></div><div>I still think it i=
s irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agree it is totally rel=
evant for the RP,</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div><span><div=
>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_863880913842970=
5438Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;=
border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil=
</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archi=
tect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&am=
p;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_2707=
54178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270=
754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272=
331192h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_270754=
178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><di=
v><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot=
;aud&quot; should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.<div=
><br></div><div>Nothing needs to change here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_863=
8809138429705438gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius<=
/div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270=
754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd">It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receive=
r could be improved.<div><br></div><div>I propose to change from:</div><div=
><pre class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_52245368897039880=
85newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>To:</div><div><pr=
e class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085ne=
wpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre><pre c=
lass=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpa=
ge" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0p=
x">      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.</pr=
e><div><br></div></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"lette=
r-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_270754178272=
331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085Apple-style-span" style=3D"=
border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Orac=
le Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid<=
/div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__=
www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Df=
DB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs=
_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_27075417=
8272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</d=
iv><br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988=
085Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot;=
 is perfectly fine.<div><br></div><div>IMO it should make no difference for=
 the Transmitter that the event is actually handled by an outsourced entity=
, the RP trusts that entity and the event is generated and targeted to the =
RP and not to the current outsourced processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_86388=
09138429705438m_5224536889703988085gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail=
_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_27=
0754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div><br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688=
9703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style=3D=
"word-wrap:break-word"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>I am reviewing th=
e previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved issues=
 for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Follow=
ing up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Ca=
ud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security dom=
ain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though i=
t often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outso=
urced events processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text=
 explaining that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?=C2=
=A0 I don=E2=80=99t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this coul=
d complicate processing more than its worth.</div><div><br></div><div>There=
 are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the most unre=
solved.</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"m_27075417827233=
1192cremed" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536=
889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;=
display:inline!important">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;f=
ont-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">t=
o me, the &quot;audience&quot; claim seems to be a good choice here.</span>=
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><=
br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;fl=
oat:none;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fon=
t-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w=
hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On=
 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The=
 abstract mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;receiver&quot; in the last =
sentence. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound right (that should be used in=
 the context of a transmitter), but I don&#39;t have a better suggestion. A=
udience?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;=
. I think it should be either &quot;receiver&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.=
<br>The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmi=
tter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, =
then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>F=
igure 3, I think the &quot;sub&quot; claim should be nested in the event, n=
ext to the issuer that provides the correct context. The &quot;iss&quot; an=
d &quot;sub&quot; definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflict=
ing advice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of &quot;nbf&quot;. The definition s=
ays that this is the event time. I see two problems:<br>- the name suggest =
&quot;not before&quot;, not exactly the same as event time<br>- there can b=
e multiple events<br>maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>Section 2.1, de=
finition of &quot;exp&quot;. Omitting this claim is the short term solution=
 to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be use=
d?<br>Section 2.1, definition of &quot;events&quot;. It states that all eve=
nts must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached =
the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profi=
le, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention=
 that.<br>Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new =
claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br=
>Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next=
 paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br>Sectio=
n 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that &quot;nonce&quot; is also required, =
but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for e=
xample will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.<br>Marius<b=
r>On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaro=
nf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_86388091384297=
05438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_270754178272=
331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto<wbr>:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&g=
t; wrote:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This is to announce working group last call =
on this draft<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent=
-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_l=
w_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5=
-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpo<wbr>int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat<wbr>atracker.=
ietf.org_doc_draft-2D<wbr>ietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwI<wbr>GaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx<wbr>BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr<wbr>K=
ugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_<wbr>lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS<wbr>=
7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98<wbr>RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5<wbr=
>-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_86388091384297054=
38m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dt=
oken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&am=
p;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LN=
E4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw=
4Fw&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//urldef<wbr>ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D<wbr>https-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org<wbr>_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2<wbr>Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9<wbr>SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQL=
XEZEWA2F1i7bf<wbr>AuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6<wbr>cxjlKfjqT99u5-Oj=
w4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_=
5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
&gt;).<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Please send your comments to the list. Even if =
you are perfectly<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0happy with the draft, please let us =
know that you support its<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0publication as-is by posting=
 to the list.<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Because of the summer holidays, this las=
t call is open for 3 weeks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0until Aug. 21.<br>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Dick=
 and Yaron<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0___________________________<wbr>___________=
_________<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8=
638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_270=
754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:I<wbr>d-event@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAu=
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
CC: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 01:04:11 +0000
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References: <872C6059-123B-431C-9C6B-EBAAE3D6A3DA@oracle.com> <CA+k3eCQaonsUe+=BzhQ1WbEP3EPSKA-2QRRBrJVO8dOXZypwqw@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB0504D2B5C6B828B6868A56ECF5470@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <A1EE707B-A32B-4131-87BA-A7B5E8C672AF@oracle.com> <A2458FA9-4492-41EA-8FFA-5BF3E5ECF377@amazon.com>
From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 18:15:23 -0700
Message-ID: <CAGdjJp+hXLF3hffxvr3W9Yx4tZCCozW=aQ_kS63oLO4pM24Njg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/9j4JhFa5rSn9YsoN1PprL0rtYFQ>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the
> last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D MAY be assumed to be
> the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessa=
ry or particularly helpful
> to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET
> level.
>

+1



>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
> *To: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List
> <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>
>
>
> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wordsmithe=
d
> by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the repl=
y to
> Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>
>
>
>                                                                 Thanks
> Phil and all,
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Brian Campbell
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>
>
>
> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a
> standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>
> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by
> saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be
> accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to s=
ay
> that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at
> all. But don't change the meaning.
>
> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the
> nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is define=
d
> in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to referen=
ce
> nbf.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding
> SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that rede=
finition was appropriate.
>
>
>
> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate
> that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a =
date which
> is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is
> useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earli=
er
> than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered throu=
gh
> an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).
>
>
>
> The definition from JWT is:
> 4.1.5
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_Fw=
ylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZ=
iCG62w&e=3D>.
> "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>
>
>
>
>
>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JWT
>
>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>
>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>
>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers MAY
>
>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to
>
>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>
>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>
>
>
>
>
> As defined in SET:
>
>    nbf
>
>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DD=
wMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&=
s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value=
 is a
>
>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>
>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have
>
>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>
>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as
>
>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example
>
>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>
>
>
> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.
>
>
>
> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D (time of
> event). The proposed new
>
> definition:
>
>
>
> toe
>
>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DD=
wMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&=
s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value=
 is a
>
>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event is =
believed to have
>
>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is OPT=
IONAL.
>
>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assume=
d to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> nbf
>
>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD
>
>       be ignored.
>
>
>
>
>
> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVg=
HSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I s=
uggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of=
 =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to sta=
ndardize
 the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" li=
nk=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-1302340512091301459WordSectio=
n1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Id-event &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cre=
med">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D=
"h5"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &=
quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian&#39;s edits.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones=
@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Annabelle and I agreed=
 with this proposed change (as correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our i=
n-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 com=
ments.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks=
 Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mik=
e</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Campbell<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &=
quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">+1 to SET defining a =
time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And wh=
o doesn&#39;t like a claim named &quot;toe&quot;?
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">However, the text the=
re for nbf is still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignore=
d, which isn&#39;t consistent with the &quot;MUST NOT be accepted for proce=
ssing&quot; from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate
 to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention =
nbf at all. But don&#39;t change the meaning.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be &quot;Defined by Section 4.1.5=
 [RFC7519]&quot;, which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a=
 NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to=
 nbf and no reason to reference nbf.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a questi=
on came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D an=
d whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Tra=
nsmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specifi=
ed date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the S=
ET. In particular this is useful in cases
 where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time =
of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administra=
tive review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools=
.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNK=
e4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEi=
uefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot=
;,serif;color:black;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</span></a><a name=3D"m_-130=
2340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"cremed"></a>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,serif">=
.=C2=A0
 &quot;nbf&quot; (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 The &quot;nbf&quot; (not before) claim identifies the tim=
e before which the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST NOT be accepted for processing.=C2=A0 The processing=
 of the &quot;nbf&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after o=
r equal to<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the not-before date/time listed in the &quot;nbf&quot; cl=
aim.=C2=A0 Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few=
 minutes, to<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 account for clock skew.=C2=A0 Its value MUST be a number =
containing a<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate value.=C2=A0 Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As defined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 nbf<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section=
-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10=
&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZ=
iCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC=
7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 In the context of th=
e SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 interpreted to mean a date in which the=
 event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred (in the past) or will occur in=
 the future.=C2=A0 Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MAY be some cases where &quot;nbf&quot;=
 is still smaller than &quot;iat&quot; such as<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when it took an extended time for a SET=
 to be issued (for example<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 after some analysis).=C2=A0 This claim =
is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will caus=
e confusion.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal is to register a different claim name s=
uch as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section=
-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10=
&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZ=
iCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC=
7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 The value is the dat=
e and time in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred in the past or will occur in t=
he future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=
=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This claim is not used in SET Events. I=
f asserted, the value SHOULD<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored.<u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Phil</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Oracle Corporation, Iden=
tity Cloud Services Architect</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">@independentid</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMG=
aQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugC=
H0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVg=
HSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Id-=
event@ietf.org</a><br>
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Segoe UI&quot;;colo=
r:#555555;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:=
 This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole u=
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mediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from yo=
ur computer. Thank you.</span></i></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as they should all be receiver.=20=


Thks

Phil

> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:
>=20
> "The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "rece=
iver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a transmit=
ter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should b=
e either "receiver" or "audience"."
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>> Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
>>>>=20
>>>> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE),=
 the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.  Rega=
rdless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT m=
ethod which suggests the security domain the event is for.  For example, a w=
eb site relying party does not have the capability to process (or issue) eve=
nts itself (eg. because of a distributed architecture). The relying party as=
signs another entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the S=
ET which will make it impossible to for another server to handle or worse, i=
t would require sharing of private keys.=20
>>>=20
>>> The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an e=
ndpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an=
 encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does n=
ot need access to the private key at all.
>>>=20
>>> I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I ag=
ree it is totally relevant for the RP,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelev=
ant.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wro=
te:
>>>>>> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a recei=
ver could be improved.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I propose to change from:
>>>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>>>>       distribution method.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>>>>>>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>>>>>>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event i=
s actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and th=
e event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsource=
d processor.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing=
 up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned t=
hat =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a=
 security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the recei=
ver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D=
) has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called receiver)=
.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaini=
ng that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate proces=
sing more than its worth.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed t=
he most unresolved.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraun=
hofer.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentenc=
e. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a t=
ransmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>>>>>>>>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it=
 should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>>>>>>>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the t=
ransmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same ent=
ity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.
>>>>>>>>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, n=
ext to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" def=
initions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
>>>>>>>>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this i=
s the event time. I see two problems:
>>>>>>>>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event ti=
me
>>>>>>>>>> - there can be multiple events
>>>>>>>>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>>>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the shor=
t term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHO=
ULD NOT be used?
>>>>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events mu=
st refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the con=
clusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, whic=
h is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new c=
laim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>>>>>>>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that=
 the next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also requ=
ired, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint f=
or example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
>>>>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>>>>>>>>    (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatr=
acker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C=
_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W=
54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3D=
DwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=
=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D >).
>>>>>>>>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfect=
ly
>>>>>>>>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>>>>>>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>>>>>>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 w=
eeks,
>>>>>>>>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>>>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>>>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>    https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKC=
X5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFE=
V9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXO=
RUpSDnvA&e=3D     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUU=
ydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJIN=
LVTXORUpSDnvA&e=3D >
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9S=
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SDnvA&e=3D=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ=
_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL_TsJINLVTXORUpS=
DnvA&e=3D
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
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&e=3D=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok. I will do search replace on subscr=
iber as they should all be receiver.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thks<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>O=
n Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtesc=
u@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I raised a wording issue, not sure if it s=
till applies:<div><br></div><div>"The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiv=
er" in the last sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be us=
ed in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. A=
udience?</div><div>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I t=
hink it should be either "receiver" or "audience"."</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (I=
DM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withd=
rawing it?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>Phil</font>=
</span></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Ma=
rius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank=
">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>It=E2=80=99s quite relevan=
t to those with distributed architectures.</div><div><br></div><div>If an Ev=
ent Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), the SETs nee=
ds to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.&nbsp; Regardless, =E2=
=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT method which=
 suggests the security domain the event is for.&nbsp; For example, a web sit=
e relying party does not have the capability to process (or issue) events it=
self (eg. because of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns a=
nother entity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter). &nbsp;</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encryp=
ted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can=
 read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to handle o=
r worse, it would require sharing of private keys.&nbsp;</div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so=
 they can specify an endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and th=
ey can also specify an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced r=
eceiver. The RP does not need access to the private key at all.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this s=
pec. I agree it is totally relevant for the RP,</div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v><br></div><div><span><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><sp=
an class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-style-span" style=
=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Ora=
cle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid<=
/div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__w=
ww.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-H=
kcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&amp;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3E=
KVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_2707541782723=
31192h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_27075417827=
2331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div=
><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">I think "aud" should=
 point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.<div><br></div><div>No=
thing needs to change here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br cl=
ear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438gmai=
l_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_27075=
4178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I=
t seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receiver coul=
d be improved.<div><br></div><div>I propose to change from:</div><div><pre c=
lass=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpag=
e" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"=
>   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div><br></div></div><div>To:</div><div><pre=
 class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newp=
age" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0p=
x">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre><pre cl=
ass=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085newpage=
" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=
      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.</pre><d=
iv><br></div></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white=
-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_=
5224536889703988085Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-=
height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><=
div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Se=
rvices Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJ=
HRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" class=3D=
"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></di=
v></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"=
m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius S=
curtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_27075417827=
2331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><=
br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085Ap=
ple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I think "aud" is perfectly fi=
ne.<div><br></div><div>IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter t=
hat the event is actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts tha=
t entity and the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the cu=
rrent outsourced processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D=
"all"><div><div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_52245368=
89703988085gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div><=
/div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_2707=
54178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><=
div><br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988=
085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><div>I am reviewing the previou=
s feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved issues for quick=
 discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Following up on M=
arius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D h=
as a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition=
. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns o=
ut to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events pro=
cessing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div><br></div><div>=
I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a=
 receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t s=
ee any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processin=
g more than its worth.</div><div><br></div><div>There are a few other commen=
ts in this thread, but this one seemed the most unresolved.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><d=
iv>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_2=
70754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058=
038Apple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Hello,<=
/span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float=
:none;display:inline!important">to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a go=
od choice here.</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-sty=
le:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span=
><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fon=
t-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-si=
ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On 08/02/201=
7 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none=
;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The abstract mention=
s "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "receiver" does not sound ri=
ght (that should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have a=
 better suggestion. Audience?<br>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "s=
ubscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br>The exp=
lanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter. If the=
 issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then the tran=
smitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>Figure 3, I thi=
nk the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to the issuer that pr=
ovides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touc=
h on this, providing conflicting advice.<br>Section 2,1, definition of "nbf"=
. The definition says that this is the event time. I see two problems:<br>- t=
he name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time<br>- there c=
an be multiple events<br>maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>Section 2.1,=
 definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution to the c=
onfusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br>Sect=
ion 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must refer to the=
 same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusion that al=
l events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is a stronger=
 requirement. I think this definition should mention that.<br>Regarding even=
ts and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identif=
y the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br>Figure 5. Maybe a signed e=
xample would be better, especially that the next paragraph mentions that sig=
natures or encryption should be used.<br>Section 4.5, second paragraph. Ment=
ions that "nonce" is also required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens=
 issued at the token endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we dro=
p the whole paragraph.<br>Marius<br>On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron S=
heffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_2707541782723=
31192cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_270=
754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_58587289367405803=
8Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto<wbr>:yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announ=
ce working group last call on this draft<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_do=
c_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIG=
k&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9M=
d1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpo<wbr>int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3=
A__dat<wbr>atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2D<wbr>ietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=
=3DDwI<wbr>GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx<wbr>BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;=
r=3DJBm5biRr<wbr>KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_<wbr>lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9S=
Q_lw_LNE4lvS<wbr>7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98<wbr>RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6c=
xjlKfjqT99u5<wbr>-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_86=
38809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2D=
secevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFE=
V9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjq=
T99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">https://urldef<wbr>ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D<wbr>https-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org<wbr>_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2<wbr>Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9<wbr>SQ_lw_LNE4lvS=
7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bf<wbr>AuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6<wbr>cxjlKfjqT99u5=
-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438=
m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
>&gt;).<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. Even if y=
ou are perfectly<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the draft, please let us kn=
ow that you support its<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by posting to=
 the list.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, this last ca=
ll is open for 3 weeks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until Aug. 21.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and Yar=
on<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;___________________________<wbr>____________________=
<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Id-event mailing list<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429=
705438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_27075417827233119=
2cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:I<wbr>d-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
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ttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2<wbr>Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga<wbr>WHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1<wbr>0&amp;r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi<wbr>vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9S<wbr>Q_lw_LNE4lv=
S7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfA<wbr>uUY&amp;s=3DjX1QgcFI8umtt8pEkthXa3uL<wbr>_TsJINLVTXO=
RUpSDnvA&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_863880913842970543=
8m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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See one of my other my other replies. The term should be =93recipient=94 fo=
r JWT/JWS, etc. consistency.


From: Phil Hunt (IDM)<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 6:45 PM
To: Marius Scurtescu<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC

Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as they should all be receiver.

Thks

Phil

On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:

I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:

"The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "recei=
ver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a transmit=
ter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should be=
 either "receiver" or "audience"."



Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?

Phil

On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
It=92s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.

If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), the=
 SETs needs to be encrypted so the =93receiver" can read it.  Regardless, =
=93aud=94 should be interpreted by the traditional JWT method which suggest=
s the security domain the event is for.  For example, a web site relying pa=
rty does not have the capability to process (or issue) events itself (eg. b=
ecause of a distributed architecture). The relying party assigns another en=
tity the role of Event Receiver (or Transmitter).

The problem being that If the =93set=94 is encrypted for =93aud=94 then onl=
y the =93aud=94 entity can read the SET which will make it impossible to fo=
r another server to handle or worse, it would require sharing of private ke=
ys.

The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify an end=
point that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an =
encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does n=
ot need access to the private key at all.

I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agree=
 it is totally relevant for the RP,



Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A_=
_www.independentid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXy=
sOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo=
&e=3D>
phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:

I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.

Nothing needs to change here IMO.

Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phi=
l.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a receiver co=
uld be improved.

I propose to change from:

   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.

To:

   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different

      entity than that described by the =93aud=94 claim.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A_=
_www.independentid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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&e=3D>
phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com<mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:

I think "aud" is perfectly fine.

IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is actu=
ally handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the eve=
nt is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced pr=
ocessor.

Marius

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com<mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:

All,

I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any =
unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=85

Following up on Marius and Henk=92s comment, I am concerned that =93aud=94 =
has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain definiti=
on. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turn=
s out to be. For example a RP (=93aud=94) has outsourced events processing =
to a third party (the so called receiver).

I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that =
a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=92t see any b=
enefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing more =
than its worth.

There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the most=
 unresolved.

Phil


On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<=
mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:

Hello,

to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.

Viele Gr=FC=DFe,

Henk

On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "receiv=
er" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a transmitt=
er), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should be=
 either "receiver" or "audience".
The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter=
. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then=
 the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.
Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to th=
e issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions=
 in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the even=
t time. I see two problems:
- the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
- there can be multiple events
maybe this claim should be dropped?
Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term sol=
ution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT b=
e used?
Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must refer t=
o the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusion t=
hat all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is a s=
tronger requirement. I think this definition should mention that.
Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to u=
niquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required, but =
that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for examp=
le will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
Marius
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<mailt=
o:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See one of my other my other replies. The term shoul=
d be =93recipient=94 for JWT/JWS, etc. consistency.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E=
1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">Phil Hunt (IDM)</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, October 23, 2017 6:45 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">Marius Scurtescu</a><br=
>
<b>Cc: </b><a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org">ID Events Mailing List</a><=
br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Id-event] &quot;aud&quot; vs. receiver issue raised in=
 WGLC</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as they should all be recei=
ver.&nbsp;</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Thks<br>
<br>
Phil</div>
<div><br>
On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&quot;The abstract mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;receiver&quot=
; in the last sentence. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound right (that sho=
uld be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better sug=
gestion. Audience?</div>
<div>The last paragraph of section 1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I thi=
nk it should be either &quot;receiver&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.&quot;<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</d=
iv>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?<span class=3D"=
HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
Phil</font></span></div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurte=
scu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>It=92s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE)=
, the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =93receiver&quot; can read it.&nbsp=
; Regardless, =93aud=94 should be interpreted by the traditional JWT method=
 which suggests the security domain the event is
 for.&nbsp; For example, a web site relying party does not have the capabil=
ity to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed archi=
tecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of Event Receiv=
er (or Transmitter). &nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The problem being that If the =93set=94 is encrypted for =93aud=94 the=
n only the =93aud=94 entity can read the SET which will make it impossible =
to for another server to handle or worse, it would require sharing of priva=
te keys.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify a=
n endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specif=
y an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP d=
oes not need access to the private
 key at all.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I =
agree it is totally relevant for the RP,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-style-sp=
an" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px=
">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div>
<div>@independentid</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.i=
ndependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-Hkc=
xglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&amp;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EK=
VE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_27075417827233119=
2cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</span>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5">
<div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-new=
line">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; should point to the Receiver, the =
outsourcing is irrelevant.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nothing needs to change here IMO.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">
Marius</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It seems reasonable to further clarify =
that the definition of a receiver could be improved.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I propose to change from:</div>
<div>
<pre class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688970398808=
5newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>To:</div>
<div>
<pre class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688970398808=
5newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different</pre>
<pre class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688970398808=
5newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px">      entity than that described by the =93aud=94 claim.</pre>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688970=
3988085Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:norm=
al;border-spacing:0px">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div>
<div>@independentid</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.i=
ndependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pN=
mWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0=
DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_27075417827233119=
2cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438h5"><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ms=
curtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085=
Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I think &quot;aud&quot; is perfectly fine.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is=
 actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and th=
e event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourc=
ed processor.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688970398808=
5gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">
Marius</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_52245368897039=
88085m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>All,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up=
 any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=85</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following up on Marius and Henk=92s comment, I am concerned that =93au=
d=94 has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain def=
inition. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it often=
 turns out to be. For example a RP (=93aud=94)
 has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called receiver)=
.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining =
that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=92t=
 see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate proces=
sing more than its worth.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the=
 most unresolved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.b=
irkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr>de</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085=
m_585872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline">
<div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
float:none;display:inline!important">to
 me, the &quot;audience&quot; claim seems to be a good choice here.</span><=
br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
float:none;display:inline!important">Viele
 Gr=FC=DFe,</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px">
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
float:none;display:inline!important">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
float:none;display:inline!important">On
 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px">
The abstract mentions &quot;issuer&quot; and &quot;receiver&quot; in the la=
st sentence. &quot;receiver&quot; does not sound right (that should be used=
 in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Au=
dience?<br>
The last paragraph of section 1 mentions &quot;subscriber&quot;. I think it=
 should be either &quot;receiver&quot; or &quot;audience&quot;.<br>
The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the transmitter=
. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the same entity, then=
 the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make that clear.<br>
Figure 3, I think the &quot;sub&quot; claim should be nested in the event, =
next to the issuer that provides the correct context. The &quot;iss&quot; a=
nd &quot;sub&quot; definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflic=
ting advice.<br>
Section 2,1, definition of &quot;nbf&quot;. The definition says that this i=
s the event time. I see two problems:<br>
- the name suggest &quot;not before&quot;, not exactly the same as event ti=
me<br>
- there can be multiple events<br>
maybe this claim should be dropped?<br>
Section 2.1, definition of &quot;exp&quot;. Omitting this claim is the shor=
t term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SH=
OULD NOT be used?<br>
Section 2.1, definition of &quot;events&quot;. It states that all events mu=
st refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the co=
nclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same profile, wh=
ich is a stronger requirement. I think this
 definition should mention that.<br>
Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to u=
niquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br>
Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br>
Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that &quot;nonce&quot; is also requ=
ired, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint=
 for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.<br>
Marius<br>
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705=
438m_5224536889703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_27075417827233=
1192cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto<wbr>:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group last call on this draft=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=
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nse.proofpo<wbr>int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat<wbr>atracker.ietf.org_doc_=
draft-2D<wbr>ietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwI<wbr>GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PQcx<wbr>BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr<wbr>KugCH0FkITSeGJ=
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e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688=
9703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
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=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldef<=
wbr>ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D<wbr>https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org<wbr>=
_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2<wbr>Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
Cg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJ=
xPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9<wbr>SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1=
i7bf<wbr>AuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6<wbr>cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;=
e=3D</a><span class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_522453688=
9703988085m_585872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;).<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are pe=
rfectly<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the draft, please let us know that you support=
 its<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by posting to the list.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open fo=
r 3 weeks,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until Aug. 21.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and Yaron<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;___________________________<wbr>____________________<br>
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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pan><br>
</blockquote>
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
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From nobody Mon Oct 23 20:47:26 2017
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Annabelle,

I have a number of concerns with this proposal.

Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent

Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more =
inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event =
payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations =
and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format =
allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which =
can each have independent structure.

General extensions

The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to =
any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not =
want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose =
items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional =
data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I =
see no good reason to rule this out.

Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a =
single family like RISC)

In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC =
events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a =
time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a =
reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET =
level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.=20

I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and =
which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.

A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just =
possibilities):
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events =
from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel =
Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple =
state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple =
effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.  The SCIM list has not =
discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  IOW - =
Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make =
this true for other profiles.
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events =
are related but express different data.

Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same =
Transaction

If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) =
would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled =
as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99=
m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given =
distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.

Previous Discussion

I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary =
event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. =
See:=20
* https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
* https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html

The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to =
figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and =
the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one =
RISC event be expressed at a time.


Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple =
events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity and =
room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF =
RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will =
require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having =
identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use cases =
for multiple events per token that people have raised. With that context =
in mind, I propose striking the definition of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it with the =
following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):
> =20
> event
> A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI =
representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification. The =
object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members as =
described by the Profiling Specification.
> =20
> Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change =
mind:
> {
>   "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>   "iat": 1458496404,
>  "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>     "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>   ],
> =20
>   "event": {
>     "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>     "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>     "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>   }
> }
> =20
> Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot =
be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use =
cases, with solutions outlined below:
> =20
> Extensions
> Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event =
object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=
=9D member that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim as defined in the current spec). This has =
the advantage of making it clear in the data structure that there is a =
single primary event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for =
confusion over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at =
all. I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed =
text, if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
> =20
> Aliases
> This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients from =
draft event names to standardized event names. In this case, the event =
transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event, one using the =
old name and another using the new name.
> =20
> Related Events
> The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating =
independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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oIY&e=3D>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have a number of concerns with this proposal.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Profiling Independence / =
Keeping Event Payloads Independent</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Indicating that extensions should be =
handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and more =
importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a =
sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to =
complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and =
unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent =
structure.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">General extensions</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The proposal also rules out general =
purpose extensions not related to any specific event. Given the =
emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to =
add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can also anticipate =
some delivery scenarios where additional data might be required. Even =
though there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to rule =
this out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple =
Events from a single family like RISC)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In our RISC session we discussed =
expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was =
that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event =
profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from =
different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly =
different things about the same event.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I can forsee some cases where it is not =
clear which is the primary and which is the extension. &nbsp;There may =
not be a clear winner.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just =
possibilities):</div><div class=3D"">* It is probably useful to be able =
to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one =
SET. &nbsp;For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel =
event.</div><div class=3D"">* SCIM may want to represent a single =
transaction as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a =
password change causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple =
events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system. &nbsp;The SCIM list has not =
discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability. &nbsp;IOW =
- Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not =
make this true for other profiles.</div><div class=3D"">* We may wish to =
indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/session =
cancellation is expressed at the same time. &nbsp;The events are related =
but express different data.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from =
the Same Transaction</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state =
(e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not =
mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis =
capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real =
time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading =
architectures.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Previous Discussion</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I note that I originally raised having =
an attribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your =
concern, but this was not accepted. See:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">* <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.ht=
ml" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406=
.html</a></div><div class=3D"">*&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.ht=
ml" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140=
.html</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure =
this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the =
profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC =
event be expressed at a time.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">The current draft of the SET spec =
allows for expressing multiple events within the same token, which =
introduces additional complexity and room for ambiguous semantics. =
We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF RISC working group and the =
current consensus there is that RISC will require that RISC events must =
be the only event in the SET, having identified ways to clearly and =
easily support the handful of use cases for multiple events per token =
that people have raised. With that context in mind, I propose striking =
the definition of the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security =
Event Token spec, and replacing it with the following definition for an =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">A JSON object containing =
an "event_type" member whose value is a URI representing a type of event =
defined in a Profiling Specification. The object MAY otherwise be empty, =
or MAY contain additional members as described by the Profiling =
Specification.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this =
change mind:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458496404,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "event": {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", "name", =
"userName", "password", "emails"]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; }<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">}<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Does anyone in =
the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot be met by this =
proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use cases, with =
solutions outlined below:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D"">Extensions</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Event extension =
mechanisms can be defined internal to the event object. A simple =
approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member =
that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of =
making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary =
event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion over =
which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all. I would =
be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text, if there is =
consensus that it is broadly useful.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Aliases</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">This use case was =
brought up in the context of migrating clients from draft event names to =
standardized event names. In this case, the event transmitter can =
transmit two tokens for the logical event, one using the old name and =
another using the new name.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Related Events</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">The SET spec =
defines the txn claim as a means of correlating independent tokens that =
relate to the same logical event.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93=
 Identity Services<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Id-event mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7j=
iRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, =
114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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Mike,

The group originally requested change from publisher/subscriber to Event =
Transmitter and Event Receiver.

Regarding =E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2=80=9D between specs, I can=E2=80=99t =
find any definitive use of the term recipient in RFC7159, 7515, or 7523. =
 Am I missing something? I only found this paragraph:
> Note:  No "charset" parameter is defined for this registration.
>       Adding one really has no effect on compliant recipients.

Are we bike-shedding here?=20

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> See one of my other my other replies. The term should be =
=E2=80=9Crecipient=E2=80=9D for JWT/JWS, etc. consistency.
> =20
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 6:45 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
> =20
> Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as they should all be =
receiver.=20
>=20
> Thks
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:
>>=20
>> "The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience"."
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Marius
>>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
>>>=20
>>> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using =
JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read =
it.  Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the =
traditional JWT method which suggests the security domain the event is =
for.  For example, a web site relying party does not have the capability =
to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed =
architecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of =
Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =20
>>>=20
>>> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can =
read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to =
handle or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.=20
>>>=20
>>> The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify =
an endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also =
specify an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. =
The RP does not need access to the private key at all.
>>>=20
>>> I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. =
I agree it is totally relevant for the RP,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49=
Xsuqtk5xM&s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is =
irrelevant.
>>>>=20
>>>> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>>>>=20
>>>> Marius
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a =
receiver could be improved.
>>>>=20
>>>> I propose to change from:
>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through =
some
>>>>       distribution method.
>>>>=20
>>>> To:
>>>>    Event Receiver
>>>>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through =
some
>>>>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>>>>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
claim.
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi=
5itJHRai0&s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the =
event is actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that =
entity and the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the =
current outsourced processor.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Marius
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> All,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be =
bringing up any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6=

>>>>>=20
>>>>> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned =
that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied =
to a security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is =
the receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP =
(=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third =
party (the so called receiver).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text =
explaining that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  =
I don=E2=80=99t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could =
complicate processing more than its worth.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed =
the most unresolved.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>>>>>>> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last =
sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the =
context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. =
Audience?
>>>>>>> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think =
it should be either "receiver" or "audience".
>>>>>>> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the =
transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.
>>>>>>> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, =
next to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and =
"sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting =
advice.
>>>>>>> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this =
is the event time. I see two problems:
>>>>>>> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event =
time
>>>>>>> - there can be multiple events
>>>>>>> maybe this claim should be dropped?
>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the =
short term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and =
that it SHOULD NOT be used?
>>>>>>> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events =
must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached =
the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same =
profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should =
mention that.
>>>>>>> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new =
claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
>>>>>>> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially =
that the next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be =
used.
>>>>>>> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.
>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>>>>>>>    =
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D>     =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6=
cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D> >).
>>>>>>>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are =
perfectly
>>>>>>>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>>>>>>>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>>>>>>>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 =
weeks,
>>>>>>>    until Aug. 21.
>>>>>>>    Thanks,
>>>>>>>         Dick and Yaron
>>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>    Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>    Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>    =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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vA&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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nvA&e=3D>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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nvA&e=3D>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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s8o&e=3D>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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--Apple-Mail=_C3D28C14-7181-42FF-851D-424AA7DE7AC4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Mike,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The group originally requested change from =
publisher/subscriber to Event Transmitter and Event Receiver.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regarding =
=E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2=80=9D between specs, I can=E2=80=99t find any =
definitive use of the term recipient in RFC7159, 7515, or 7523. &nbsp;Am =
I missing something? I only found this paragraph:</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">Note:  No "charset" parameter =
is defined for this registration.
      Adding one really has no effect on compliant recipients.
</pre></blockquote><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><br class=3D""></pre></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Are we bike-shedding here?&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">See one of my other my other replies. The term should be =
=E2=80=9Crecipient=E2=80=9D for JWT/JWS, etc. consistency.</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; border: none; padding: 0in;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt (IDM)</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October 23, =
2017 6:45 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ID Events Mailing List</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] "aud" =
vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC</div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as =
they should all be receiver.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thks<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still =
applies:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">"The =
abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?</div><div =
class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I =
think it should be either "receiver" or "audience"."</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Ok. But you raised the concern. =
Are you withdrawing it?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil</font></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 23, =
2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s =
quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If an Event Stream =
requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), the SETs needs to =
be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.&nbsp; Regardless, =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT =
method which suggests the security domain the event is for.&nbsp; For =
example, a web site relying party does not have the capability to =
process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed =
architecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of =
Event Receiver (or Transmitter). &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cse=
t=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make it =
impossible to for another server to handle or worse, it would require =
sharing of private keys.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The RP controls the configuration of =
the stream, so they can specify an endpoint that belongs to the =
outsourced receiver and they can also specify an encryption key that is =
controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP does not need access to =
the private key at all.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this =
spec. I agree it is totally relevant for the RP,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-=
YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&amp;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6y=
NBJ0nsVUgo&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""></span><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5"><div class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438Apple-interchange-newlin=
e"></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I think =
"aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is irrelevant.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Nothing needs to change =
here IMO.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D"">It seems reasonable to =
further clarify that the definition of a receiver could be improved.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I propose to change =
from:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085new=
page" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method.</pre><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">To:</div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085new=
page" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;">   Event Receiver
      An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
      distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a =
different</pre><pre =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085new=
page" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;">      entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D claim.</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085App=
le-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; =
border-spacing: 0px;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5=
BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6G=
Eeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438h5"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085App=
le-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I =
think "aud" is perfectly fine.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the =
event is actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that =
entity and the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the =
current outsourced processor.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085gma=
il_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, =
Phil Hunt<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_5=
85872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">All,</div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am reviewing the =
previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved =
issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99=
s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific =
meaning and is often tied to a security domain definition. We should not =
necessarily say this is the receiver though it often turns out to be. =
For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has outsourced events =
processing to a third party (the so called receiver).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does =
not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see any =
benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing =
more than its worth.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one =
seemed the most unresolved.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.<wbr class=3D"">de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_5=
85872893674058038Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Hello,</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">to me, the "audience" =
claim seems to be a good choice here.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Henk</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D"">The abstract mentions "issuer" =
and "receiver" in the last sentence. "receiver" does not sound right =
(that should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don't have =
a better suggestion. Audience?<br class=3D"">The last paragraph of =
section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" =
or "audience".<br class=3D"">The explanation for figure 1 states that =
the issuer denotes the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter =
are assumed to be the same entity, then the transmitter definition in =
section 1.2 should make that clear.<br class=3D"">Figure 3, I think the =
"sub" claim should be nested in the event, next to the issuer that =
provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 =
also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.<br class=3D"">Section =
2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the event =
time. I see two problems:<br class=3D"">- the name suggest "not before", =
not exactly the same as event time<br class=3D"">- there can be multiple =
events<br class=3D"">maybe this claim should be dropped?<br =
class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the =
short term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and =
that it SHOULD NOT be used?<br class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of =
"events". It states that all events must refer to the same logical =
event. Lately in discussions we reached the conclusion that all events =
in a SET should be defined in the same profile, which is a stronger =
requirement. I think this definition should mention that.<br =
class=3D"">Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a =
new claim to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss =
that.<br class=3D"">Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, =
especially that the next paragraph mentions that signatures or =
encryption should be used.<br class=3D"">Section 4.5, second paragraph. =
Mentions that "nonce" is also required, but that is not actually true. =
Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint for example will not have it. I =
suggest we drop the whole paragraph.<br class=3D"">Marius<br class=3D"">On=
 Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_5=
85872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">mailto<wbr class=3D"">:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group =
last call on this draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">https://urldefense.proofpo<wbr =
class=3D"">int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat<wbr =
class=3D"">atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2D<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwI<wbr =
class=3D"">GaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx<wbr =
class=3D"">BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRr<wbr =
class=3D"">KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_<wbr =
class=3D"">lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS<wbr =
class=3D"">7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;s=3D9SIT98<wbr =
class=3D"">RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5<wbr =
class=3D"">-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192m_8638809138429705438m_5224536889703988085m_5=
85872893674058038Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_270754178272331192cremed" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">https://urldef<wbr =
class=3D"">ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org<wbr =
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class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
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word-spacing: 0px;">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/Xgig7dBG-SZeNf8zgU_qxU1hnO4>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-secevent-token-02
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On 10/23/2017 07:05 PM, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the
> next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
>
>  
>
> Unsigned keeps the draft shorter. ;-)
>
>  
>

That justification sounds like a joke, especially with the smiley.

In-document examples are used to give guidance to the reader, including
implicit guidance; I would strongly prefer for there to be examples that
actually describe the desired/expected common deployment scenario, to
subtly reiterate the expected case.

-Ben

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    On 10/23/2017 07:05 PM, Mike Jones wrote:<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY4PR21MB05044FEC88C9019A9E9BD146F5470@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com">
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be
          better, especially that the next paragraph mentions that
          signatures or encryption should be used.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">Unsigned keeps
            the draft shorter. ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      </div>
      <div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    That justification sounds like a joke, especially with the smiley.<br>
    <br>
    In-document examples are used to give guidance to the reader,
    including implicit guidance; I would strongly prefer for there to be
    examples that actually describe the desired/expected common
    deployment scenario, to subtly reiterate the expected case.<br>
    <br>
    -Ben<br>
  </body>
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
References: <e6649728-f94a-93f5-9885-c948a5b0ed49@gmail.com> <CAGdjJpJtfV9q2iaL-uao1b7XpQjx5uJrX=fnoM36POXLFYrqow@mail.gmail.com> <fa06137b-516f-4a57-8ed5-08cd2cc63af6@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71FA69AE-F8F6-45AB-9550-36BC9395DE32@gmail.com> <684D9C6F-C59A-4850-9A1B-24A026278A62@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpLYxzUqOGxZ9oTLiCzZAwffTEqjxBYNtZO09nF6RnzOAA@mail.gmail.com> <7DAF5B83-F6DB-4015-A011-AB6E13C46B81@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJtP7w-wL3Pj=QODOjc9m15z0Ssd+8bwxX684c-t1bbiQ@mail.gmail.com> <5FF78162-D0FF-4742-90BF-9A12BA299D06@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpLVKveRGp3RSnxjUgqjv2bmgxZWTNcajRDNG0C2wKG1iw@mail.gmail.com> <73EA53D2-55F8-46EB-99BA-41516D844559@oracle.com> <CAGdjJpJGh0DAMT-ZUGZ8dYy7cqcS8L8NfSbtthUuYhLQCJJzvg@mail.gmail.com> <9D836134-3DD2-4444-92B4-07C7DA49D51A@oracle.com> <CY4PR21MB05043612734A19D3720D68D5F5470@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <FCC05106-D7D1-4F63-9223-96477BC3C6C5@oracle.com> <CY4PR21MB0504D9B25F3D52539D5322EBF5470@CY4PR21MB0504.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
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	charset=utf-8

I stand corrected.  Yesterday my browser wasn=E2=80=99t showing no =
matches, and yet today it is. Weird.

I think as long as SET is consistent on Receiver, we=E2=80=99re probably =
good - meaning get rid of the remaining =E2=80=9Csubscriber=E2=80=9D =
term.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.3 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.3&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DzDjEgJvZe=
b4lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2L0vKRmx7s&s=3DeXrB41SaogcZSrldajoknOKzzvuga-wE40f=
m7UdF4OM&e=3D>:
> =20
>  <>4.1.3 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.3&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DzDjEgJvZe=
b4lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2L0vKRmx7s&s=3DeXrB41SaogcZSrldajoknOKzzvuga-wE40f=
m7UdF4OM&e=3D>.  "aud" (Audience) Claim
>    The "aud" (audience) claim identifies the recipients that the JWT =
is
>    intended for.
> =20
> There=E2=80=99s a bunch of other places where the term =E2=80=9Crecipien=
t=E2=80=9D occurs.  Previous inconsistences in JWT were pointed out =
during late WG reviews and addressed using the current terminology, =
which is part of why I remember this at all.
> =20
> My point of view is that reviewers noticed inconsistent usage of =
terminology during WGLC, so we should try to address that.  SET =
doesn=E2=80=99t exist in a vacuum =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s a profile of =
JWT, so to the extent that SET uses concepts that JWT already has names =
for, we should use the same names unless there are compelling reasons =
not to.
> =20
> It may be bike-shedding, but in my experience, if we don=E2=80=99t =
address inconsistencies now, they will be pointed out to us again during =
IETF-wide review =E2=80=93 possibly by Gen-Art, possibly by Sec-Dir, =
possibly by our AD, or possibly by individual reviewers =E2=80=93 and if =
not then, by the RFC Editor.  Better to fix these things now, rather =
than let them linger and generate more objections and delays.
> =20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 9:01 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>; ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
> =20
> Mike,
> =20
> The group originally requested change from publisher/subscriber to =
Event Transmitter and Event Receiver.
> =20
> Regarding =E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2=80=9D between specs, I can=E2=80=99t =
find any definitive use of the term recipient in RFC7159, 7515, or 7523. =
 Am I missing something? I only found this paragraph:
> Note:  No "charset" parameter is defined for this registration.
>       Adding one really has no effect on compliant recipients.
> =20
> Are we bike-shedding here?=20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DzDjEgJvZeb4lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2=
L0vKRmx7s&s=3DgdHmXVJK_L6-6qkhvmdjy1VbfjGHvO6P4M-S3k_NHCI&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 8:08 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> =20
> See one of my other my other replies. The term should be =
=E2=80=9Crecipient=E2=80=9D for JWT/JWS, etc. consistency.
> =20
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 6:45 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC
> =20
> Ok. I will do search replace on subscriber as they should all be =
receiver.=20
> =20
> Thks
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I raised a wording issue, not sure if it still applies:
> =20
> "The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience"."
> =20
> =20
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you withdrawing it?
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with distributed architectures.
> =20
> If an Event Stream requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using =
JWE), the SETs needs to be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read =
it.  Regardless, =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the =
traditional JWT method which suggests the security domain the event is =
for.  For example, a web site relying party does not have the capability =
to process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed =
architecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of =
Event Receiver (or Transmitter). =20
> =20
> The problem being that If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can =
read the SET which will make it impossible to for another server to =
handle or worse, it would require sharing of private keys.=20
> =20
> The RP controls the configuration of the stream, so they can specify =
an endpoint that belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also =
specify an encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. =
The RP does not need access to the private key at all.
> =20
> I still think it is irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I =
agree it is totally relevant for the RP,
> =20
> =20
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49=
Xsuqtk5xM&s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6yNBJ0nsVUgo&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the outsourcing is =
irrelevant.
> =20
> Nothing needs to change here IMO.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of a =
receiver could be improved.
> =20
> I propose to change from:
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method.
> =20
> To:
>    Event Receiver
>       An Event Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some
>       distribution method. An Event Receiver MAY be a different
>       entity than that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi=
5itJHRai0&s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6GEeg-S0KMyE&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
> =20
> I think "aud" is perfectly fine.
> =20
> IMO it should make no difference for the Transmitter that the event is =
actually handled by an outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and =
the event is generated and targeted to the RP and not to the current =
outsourced processor.
>=20
> Marius
> =20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
> =20
> All,
> =20
> I am reviewing the previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up =
any unresolved issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6
> =20
> Following up on Marius and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a =
security domain definition. We should not necessarily say this is the =
receiver though it often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=
=80=9D) has outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called =
receiver).
> =20
> I am happy with the current claim set, but maybe some text explaining =
that a receiver does not have to be the aud is appropriate?  I don=E2=80=99=
t see any benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate =
processing more than its worth.
> =20
> There are a few other comments in this thread, but this one seemed the =
most unresolved.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> =20
> On Aug 3, 2017, at 8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> =20
> Hello,
>=20
> to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good choice here.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:
>=20
> The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. =
"receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the context of a =
transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. Audience?
> The last paragraph of section 1 mentions "subscriber". I think it =
should be either "receiver" or "audience".
> The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes the =
transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.
> Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be nested in the event, next =
to the issuer that provides the correct context. The "iss" and "sub" =
definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, providing conflicting advice.
> Section 2,1, definition of "nbf". The definition says that this is the =
event time. I see two problems:
> - the name suggest "not before", not exactly the same as event time
> - there can be multiple events
> maybe this claim should be dropped?
> Section 2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short =
term solution to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it =
SHOULD NOT be used?
> Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that all events must =
refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions we reached the =
conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in the same =
profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this definition should =
mention that.
> Regarding events and profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim =
to uniquely identify the profile. I think we need to discuss that.
> Figure 5. Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the =
next paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.
> Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also required, =
but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token endpoint =
for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole paragraph.
> Marius
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>    This is to announce working group last call on this draft
>    =
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D>     =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o=
rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=
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cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&e=3D> >).
>    Please send your comments to the list. Even if you are perfectly
>    happy with the draft, please let us know that you support its
>    publication as-is by posting to the list.
>    Because of the summer holidays, this last call is open for 3 weeks,
>    until Aug. 21.
>    Thanks,
>         Dick and Yaron
>    _______________________________________________
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> =
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fRA&e=3D>=20


--Apple-Mail=_9D5342A5-6F9D-48FC-86F9-EDEF36D87701
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I stand corrected. &nbsp;Yesterday my browser wasn=E2=80=99t =
showing no matches, and yet today it is. Weird.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think as long as SET is consistent on =
Receiver, we=E2=80=99re probably good - meaning get rid of the remaining =
=E2=80=9Csubscriber=E2=80=9D term.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 24, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.3&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DzDjEgJvZeb4lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2L0vKRmx7s&amp;s=3DeXrB41Sa=
ogcZSrldajoknOKzzvuga-wE40fm7UdF4OM&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-4.1.3</a>:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; break-before: page;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><a name=3D"section-4.1.3" =
class=3D""></a><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.3&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DzDjEgJvZeb4lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2L0vKRmx7s&amp;s=3DeXrB41Sa=
ogcZSrldajoknOKzzvuga-wE40fm7UdF4OM&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">4.1.3</span></b></span><span class=3D""></span></a><span =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">.&nbsp; "aud" (Audience) Claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "aud" (audience) claim =
identifies the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"background-color: yellow; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">recipients</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that the JWT is<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; break-before: page;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; intended for.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There=E2=80=99=
s a bunch of other places where the term =E2=80=9Crecipient=E2=80=9D =
occurs.&nbsp; Previous inconsistences in JWT were pointed out during =
late WG reviews and addressed using the current terminology, which is =
part of why I remember this at all.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">My point of =
view is that reviewers noticed inconsistent usage of terminology during =
WGLC, so we should try to address that.&nbsp; SET doesn=E2=80=99t exist =
in a vacuum =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s a profile of JWT, so to the extent =
that SET uses concepts that JWT already has names for, we should use the =
same names unless there are compelling reasons not to.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It may be =
bike-shedding, but in my experience, if we don=E2=80=99t address =
inconsistencies now, they will be pointed out to us again during =
IETF-wide review =E2=80=93 possibly by Gen-Art, possibly by Sec-Dir, =
possibly by our AD, or possibly by individual reviewers =E2=80=93 and if =
not then, by the RFC Editor.&nbsp; Better to fix these things now, =
rather than let them linger and generate more objections and delays.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, October 23, 2017 =
9:01 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;; =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] "aud" vs. =
receiver issue raised in WGLC<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Mike,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The group originally requested change =
from publisher/subscriber to Event Transmitter and Event Receiver.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regarding =E2=80=9Cconsistency=E2=80=9D =
between specs, I can=E2=80=99t find any definitive use of the term =
recipient in RFC7159, 7515, or 7523. &nbsp;Am I missing something? I =
only found this paragraph:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; break-before: page;" class=3D"">Note:&nbsp; =
No "charset" parameter is defined for this registration.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Adding one really has no =
effect on compliant recipients.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
break-before: page;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Are we bike-shedding here?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DzDjEgJvZeb4=
lVQNz1NbQT2pBNfKrowDq-2L0vKRmx7s&amp;s=3DgdHmXVJK_L6-6qkhvmdjy1VbfjGHvO6P4=
M-S3k_NHCI&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 8:08 =
PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">See one of my other my other replies. =
The term should be =E2=80=9Crecipient=E2=80=9D for JWT/JWS, etc. =
consistency.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">Phil Hunt (IDM)</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October 23, =
2017 6:45 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">Marius Scurtescu</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">ID Events Mailing List</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] "aud" =
vs. receiver issue raised in WGLC<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ok. I will do =
search replace on subscriber as they should all be receiver.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thks<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct =
23, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I raised a wording =
issue, not sure if it still applies:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"The abstract mentions =
"issuer" and "receiver" in the last sentence. "receiver" does not sound =
right (that should be used in the context of a transmitter), but I don't =
have a better suggestion. Audience?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions =
"subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience"."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 23, =
2017 at 5:49 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ok. But you raised the concern. Are you =
withdrawing it?<span style=3D"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><span class=3D"hoenzb">Phil</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:47 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s quite relevant to those with =
distributed architectures.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If an Event Stream =
requires that SETs need to be encrypted (using JWE), the SETs needs to =
be encrypted so the =E2=80=9Creceiver" can read it.&nbsp; Regardless, =
=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D should be interpreted by the traditional JWT =
method which suggests the security domain the event is for.&nbsp; For =
example, a web site relying party does not have the capability to =
process (or issue) events itself (eg. because of a distributed =
architecture). The relying party assigns another entity the role of =
Event Receiver (or Transmitter). &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The problem being that =
If the =E2=80=9Cset=E2=80=9D is encrypted for =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D then =
only the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D entity can read the SET which will make =
it impossible to for another server to handle or worse, it would require =
sharing of private keys.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The RP controls the =
configuration of the stream, so they can specify an endpoint that =
belongs to the outsourced receiver and they can also specify an =
encryption key that is controlled by the outsourced receiver. The RP =
does not need access to the private key at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I still think it is =
irrelevant to the transmitter, or to this spec. I agree it is totally =
relevant for the RP,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DCB-Hkcxglh-=
YNhXysOrrok_4zCGDYpxX49Xsuqtk5xM&amp;s=3DyLs1cTxnvZUXAqt72qLGSJmz0X3EKVE6y=
NBJ0nsVUgo&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 3:58 =
PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think "aud" should point to the Receiver, the =
outsourcing is irrelevant.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Nothing needs to change =
here IMO.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 23, =
2017 at 3:55 PM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">It seems reasonable to further clarify that the definition of =
a receiver could be improved.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I propose to change =
from:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Event Receiver<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; An Event Receiver is an entity =
that receives SETs through some<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; distribution =
method.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Event Receiver<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; An Event =
Receiver is an entity that receives SETs through some<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; distribution method. An Event =
Receiver MAY be a different<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; entity than =
that described by the =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DfDB9pNmWNg5=
BPXoRtaXXB1Iz_tq5wICJLi5itJHRai0&amp;s=3DEe7RsPFKzheWNvOz1Ut9gCvs_2bw0DE6G=
Eeg-S0KMyE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114);" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
2:38 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 think "aud" is perfectly fine.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">IMO it should make no =
difference for the Transmitter that the event is actually handled by an =
outsourced entity, the RP trusts that entity and the event is generated =
and targeted to the RP and not to the current outsourced processor.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 23, =
2017 at 10:57 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">All,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I am reviewing the =
previous feedback from WGLC and will be bringing up any unresolved =
issues for quick discussion/confirmation=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Following up on Marius =
and Henk=E2=80=99s comment, I am concerned that =E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D =
has a very specific meaning and is often tied to a security domain =
definition. We should not necessarily say this is the receiver though it =
often turns out to be. For example a RP (=E2=80=9Caud=E2=80=9D) has =
outsourced events processing to a third party (the so called =
receiver).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I am happy with the =
current claim set, but maybe some text explaining that a receiver does =
not have to be the aud is appropriate?&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t see any =
benefit to having a receiver claim as this could complicate processing =
more than its worth.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are a few other =
comments in this thread, but this one seemed the most unresolved.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2017, at =
8:03 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hello,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">to me, the "audience" claim seems to be a good =
choice here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
08/02/2017 11:45 PM, Marius Scurtescu wrote:<br =
style=3D"font-variant-caps: normal; text-align: start; word-spacing: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The abstract mentions "issuer" and "receiver" in the last =
sentence. "receiver" does not sound right (that should be used in the =
context of a transmitter), but I don't have a better suggestion. =
Audience?<br class=3D"">The last paragraph of section 1 mentions =
"subscriber". I think it should be either "receiver" or "audience".<br =
class=3D"">The explanation for figure 1 states that the issuer denotes =
the transmitter. If the issuer and the transmitter are assumed to be the =
same entity, then the transmitter definition in section 1.2 should make =
that clear.<br class=3D"">Figure 3, I think the "sub" claim should be =
nested in the event, next to the issuer that provides the correct =
context. The "iss" and "sub" definitions in 2.1 also touch on this, =
providing conflicting advice.<br class=3D"">Section 2,1, definition of =
"nbf". The definition says that this is the event time. I see two =
problems:<br class=3D"">- the name suggest "not before", not exactly the =
same as event time<br class=3D"">- there can be multiple events<br =
class=3D"">maybe this claim should be dropped?<br class=3D"">Section =
2.1, definition of "exp". Omitting this claim is the short term solution =
to the confusion issue. Why not mention that and that it SHOULD NOT be =
used?<br class=3D"">Section 2.1, definition of "events". It states that =
all events must refer to the same logical event. Lately in discussions =
we reached the conclusion that all events in a SET should be defined in =
the same profile, which is a stronger requirement. I think this =
definition should mention that.<br class=3D"">Regarding events and =
profiles. There was a proposal to add a new claim to uniquely identify =
the profile. I think we need to discuss that.<br class=3D"">Figure 5. =
Maybe a signed example would be better, especially that the next =
paragraph mentions that signatures or encryption should be used.<br =
class=3D"">Section 4.5, second paragraph. Mentions that "nonce" is also =
required, but that is not actually true. Id Tokens issued at the token =
endpoint for example will not have it. I suggest we drop the whole =
paragraph.<br class=3D"">Marius<br class=3D"">On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at =
1:40 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"m270754178272331192m8638809138429705438m5224536889703988085m58587=
2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is to announce working group last call =
on this draft<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&a=
mp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</span></a><spa=
n =
class=3D"m270754178272331192m8638809138429705438m5224536889703988085m58587=
2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&amp;=
s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DUUydIFEV9SQ_lw_LNE4lvS7pQLXEZEWA2F1i7bfAuUY&a=
mp;s=3D9SIT98RlAb1C9Md1W54IRl6cxjlKfjqT99u5-Ojw4Fw&amp;e=3D</span></a><spa=
n =
class=3D"m270754178272331192m8638809138429705438m5224536889703988085m58587=
2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please send your comments to the list. Even =
if you are perfectly<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;happy with the =
draft, please let us know that you support its<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;publication as-is by posting to the =
list.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Because of the summer holidays, =
this last call is open for 3 weeks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;until =
Aug. 21.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Dick and =
Yaron<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_____________________________________________=
__<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Id-event mailing list<br =
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class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
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2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
lt;<a =
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rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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class=3D"m270754178272331192m8638809138429705438m5224536889703988085m58587=
2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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2893674058038apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
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class=3D""><a =
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rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwIGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
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class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the =
suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
is not asserted.=20

If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the =
event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:

A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of =
event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.

B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used =
to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only =
needed when the time of the event is different (on an exceptional =
basis).

Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we =
proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).

Thanks,

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking =
the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D =
I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardize =
the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.
>=20
>=20
> +1
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com =
<mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>=20
>=20
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
>=20
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly =
wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also =
noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>                                                                 Thanks =
Phil and all,
>=20
>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Campbell
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>=20
> =20
>=20
> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to =
redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>=20
> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by =
saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT =
be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate =
to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not =
mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.
>=20
> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is =
the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is =
defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason =
to reference nbf.=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up =
regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and =
whether that redefinition was appropriate.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to =
indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =
=E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. =
In particular this is useful in cases where the state change is believed =
to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the =
incident was discovered through an administrative review or data =
analysis to have occurred in the past).
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The definition from JWT is:
>=20
> 4.1.5 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D> <>.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>=20
> =20
> =20
>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the =
JWT
>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers =
MAY
>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, =
to
>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> As defined in SET:
>=20
>    nbf
>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to =
have
>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such =
as
>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for =
example
>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
> =20
>=20
> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>=20
> definition:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> toe
>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event =
is believed to have
>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is =
OPTIONAL.
>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be =
assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> nbf
>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value =
SHOULD
>       be ignored.
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>=20
> @independentid
>=20
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCV=
gHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D>
> =20
>=20
>=20
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and =
privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any =
review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly =
prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any =
file attachments from your computer. Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
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n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlH=
OMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VO=
N8&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Yg=
d5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mY=
pBY&e=3D>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd=
5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYp=
BY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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d5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mY=
pBY&e=3D>

--Apple-Mail=_ADC21C7D-6386-4A77-B796-609337F55DE9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to =
the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is not asserted.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the =
time of the event is defined as. &nbsp;There seem to be two options:<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D=
 can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D should be a required claim.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">B. For the majority of use cases, =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and event =
time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the =
event is different (on an exceptional basis).<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Some clarification from the group would =
be appreciated. &nbsp;Should we proceed with B, or revise the text to A =
(or some other proposal).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, =
Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I =
suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the =
value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or =
particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing =
time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">+1</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle =
Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil =
Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October 23, =
2017 at 5:48 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian=
 Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5"><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks Phil and =
all,</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, September 28, =
2017 8:23 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID =
Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Replacing =
"nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">+1 to SET defining a =
time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And =
who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
12pt;">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining =
it by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST =
NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more =
appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or =
just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also =
toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the nbf =
section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined =
in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to =
reference nbf.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep =
27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a =
question came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=
=9D and whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET =
Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a =
specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance =
date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state =
change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance =
(e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative =
review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><h4 class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">4.1.5</span></a><a =
name=3D"m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" =
class=3D"cremed"></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not Before) =
Claim</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></h4><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time =
before which the JWT<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The =
processing of the "nbf"<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST =
be after or equal to<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" =
claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small =
leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock =
skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be a number containing a<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate =
value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As =
defined in SET:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value =
is a<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the =
context of the SET token it SHALL be<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the past) or will =
occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: there<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY =
be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when it took an extended time =
for a SET to be issued (for example<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
after some analysis).&nbsp; This claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will =
cause confusion.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The =
proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D=
 (time of event). The proposed new<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"">toe<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value =
is a<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; The value =
is the date and time in which the event is believed to have<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will =
occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When =
not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be =
the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">nbf<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This =
claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ignored.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are =
there any objections to the proposed change?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Phil</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div=
 class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_Fwy=
lRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMb=
Ca_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u =
class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:33:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:46:50 -0700
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the suggestion
> against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not ass=
erted.
>
> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the
> event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>
> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of ev=
ent, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be
> a required claim.
>

Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and not
provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is
desirable, but why required?



>
> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used =
to mark SET
> issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the t=
ime of the event
> is different (on an exceptional basis).
>

If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims should
be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.


>
> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we procee=
d
> with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the
>> last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D MAY be assumed to be
>> the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necess=
ary or particularly helpful
>> to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET
>> level.
>>
>
> +1
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
>> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>> *To: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing
>> List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly
>> wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also note=
d in the
>> reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                 Thanks
>> Phil and all,
>>
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Brian Campbell
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>
>>
>>
>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine =
a
>> standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>
>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by
>> saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT b=
e
>> accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to =
say
>> that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf a=
t
>> all. But don't change the meaning.
>>
>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the
>> nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defin=
ed
>> in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to refere=
nce
>> nbf.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding
>> SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that red=
efinition was appropriate.
>>
>>
>>
>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicat=
e
>> that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a=
 date which
>> is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is
>> useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earl=
ier
>> than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered thro=
ugh
>> an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).
>>
>>
>>
>> The definition from JWT is:
>> 4.1.5
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxH=
ZiCG62w&e=3D>.
>> "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JWT
>>
>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>
>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>>
>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers MAY
>>
>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to
>>
>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>
>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As defined in SET:
>>
>>    nbf
>>
>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w=
&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose valu=
e is a
>>
>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>
>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have
>>
>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>>
>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as
>>
>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example
>>
>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.
>>
>>
>>
>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D (time of
>> event). The proposed new
>>
>> definition:
>>
>>
>>
>> toe
>>
>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w=
&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose valu=
e is a
>>
>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event is=
 believed to have
>>
>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is OP=
TIONAL.
>>
>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assum=
ed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>
>>
>>
>> nbf
>>
>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOUL=
D
>>
>>       be ignored.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCV=
gHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VO=
N8&e=3D>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and
>> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any
>> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited=
.
>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the send=
er
>> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments fr=
om
>> your computer. Thank you.*
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61
>> w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&e=3D
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Yg=
d5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYp=
BY&e=3D>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D
> XFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_
> PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&e=3D
>
>
>

--f403045d9a14e78ca9055c65281e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It is not clear how to revise the document with r=
egards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If I remove this cla=
rification, it seems unclear what the time of the event is defined as.=C2=
=A0 There seem to be two options:<div><br></div><div>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=
=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Why? Why can&#39;t the Transmitter assert that an account was =
disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event =
time is desirable, but why required?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div=
><br></div><div>B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is =
commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time. =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an exception=
al basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If SET issuanc=
e and event time are indeed the same then both claims should be present. I =
don&#39;t think iat should imply toe.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></di=
v><div>Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.=C2=A0 Should=
 we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span class=3D""><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div=
><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@inde=
pendentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oc=
t 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"><=
/div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Back=
man, Annabelle<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" c=
lass=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amaz=
on.com</a><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bor=
der-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_251113972038371=
8180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overa=
ll. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =
=E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assum=
ed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is =
necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing=
 time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div b=
gcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=
=3D"m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;T=
imes New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;=
,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-widt=
h:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_2511139720=
383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=
=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@=
ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_251=
1139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Monday, October 23,=
 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_25111397203=
83718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Ma=
iling List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_251113972038=
3718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p=
><div><div class=3D"m_2511139720383718180h5"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"=
m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event]=
 Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><br class=3D"m_2511139720383718180webkit-block-placeho=
lder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_2511139720383718180h5"><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ag=
reed +1 on Brian&#39;s edits.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 23, 2017, a=
t 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" cl=
ass=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as co=
rrectly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also=
 noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_25111=
39720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_25=
11139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=
=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf O=
f<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></=
b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:=
</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_251113972=
0383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br>=
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" clas=
s=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim wit=
h a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12pt">+1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to=
 redefine a standard claim. And who doesn&#39;t like a claim named &quot;to=
e&quot;?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bott=
om:12pt">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it=
 by saying it should be ignored, which isn&#39;t consistent with the &quot;=
MUST NOT be accepted for processing&quot; from RFC 7519. It would be more a=
ppropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just no=
t mention nbf at all. But don&#39;t change the meaning.<u></u><u></u></p></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be &quot;Defined by Section 4=
.1.5 [RFC7519]&quot;, which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim =
is a NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relatio=
n to nbf and no reason to reference nbf.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"b=
order-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question ca=
me up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whe=
ther that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The int=
ention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate that an =
event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date which=
 is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is usef=
ul in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier tha=
n the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through an=
 administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&am=
p;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_2511=
139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</spa=
n></a><a name=3D"m_2511139720383718180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_48184409499=
00985753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed"></a><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">.=C2=
=A0 &quot;nbf&quot; (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4><pre>=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 The &q=
uot;nbf&quot; (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JWT<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST NOT be accepted for processing.=C2=
=A0 The processing of the &quot;nbf&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the not-before date/time listed in the &q=
uot;nbf&quot; claim.=C2=A0 Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, t=
o<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 account for clock skew.=C2=A0 Its va=
lue MUST be a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Nume=
ricDate value.=C2=A0 Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As=
 defined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 nbf<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc751=
9-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkD=
o69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RG=
OniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 =
In the context of the SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 interpreted to mean a date in which the event is b=
elieved to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occu=
rred (in the past) or will occur in the future.=C2=A0 Note: there<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MAY be some cases where &quot=
;nbf&quot; is still smaller than &quot;iat&quot; such as<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when it took an extended time for a SE=
T to be issued (for example<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 after some analysis).=C2=A0 This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will caus=
e confusion.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal is to r=
egister a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event=
). The proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">defi=
nition:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSic=
H61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D=
"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [=
RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 The value is the date and time in =
which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This clai=
m is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When =
not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the v=
alue of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This =
claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored.<u></u><u></u></pre><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">A=
re there any objections to the proposed change?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>@independentid=
</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.co=
m&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=
=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBj=
UEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM=
&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">w=
ww.independentid.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D=
"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><=
br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing=
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_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAU=
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=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><=
u></u></p></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Segoe UI&#39;;color:rgb(85,85,85);border:1pt none windowtext;pa=
dding:0in">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and =
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 If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender=
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te><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event=
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iv></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_25111397=
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text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a=
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:56:04 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Time is u=
seful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for ordering eve=
nts overall.=20

For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would see=
m important no?

Phil

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=

>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the suggestion=
 against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asser=
ted.=20
>>=20
>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the eve=
nt is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>=20
>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of ev=
ent, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.
>=20
> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and not=
 provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is desirable=
, but why required?
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used t=
o mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed wh=
en the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).
>=20
> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims should=
 be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
> =20
>>=20
>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we procee=
d with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@a=
mazon.com> wrote:
>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the=
 last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D=
 MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not t=
hink it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of=
 a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> +1
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>=20
>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM=
)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List=
 <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wordsmit=
hed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the rep=
ly to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>                                                                 Thanks P=
hil and all,
>>>>=20
>>>>                                                                 -- Mike=

>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Ca=
mpbell
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine=
 a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>=20
>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by s=
aying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be acc=
epted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say tha=
t nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. B=
ut don't change the meaning.
>>>>=20
>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is th=
e nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined=
 in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to reference=
 nbf.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>>=20
>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regardin=
g SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that redef=
inition was appropriate.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indica=
te that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a d=
ate which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this=
 is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earl=
ier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered thro=
ugh an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).=

>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>=20
>>>> 4.1.5.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JW=
T
>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers MA=
Y
>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, t=
o
>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>=20
>>>>    nbf
>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have=

>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as=

>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example=

>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>=20
>>>> definition:
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> toe
>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event i=
s believed to have
>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is O=
PTIONAL.
>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assu=
med to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>> =20
>>>> nbf
>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOU=
LD
>>>>       be ignored.
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>=20
>>>> @independentid
>>>>=20
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>=20
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privile=
ged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use,=
 distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you have r=
eceived this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by=
 e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your computer. T=
hank you.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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>=20
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> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>In some cases, ordering of events agai=
nst a single subject matters. Time is useful for this purpose though limited=
 in the overall stream for ordering events overall.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">For example accou=
nt locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would seem important no?<b=
r><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Ph=
il Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It is not cl=
ear how to revise the document with regards to the suggestion against using =E2=
=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.&nbsp;<div><br=
></div><div>If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time o=
f the event is defined as.&nbsp; There seem to be two options:<div><br></div=
><div>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of=
 event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.</div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert t=
hat an account was disabled and not provide a specific event time? I underst=
and that an event time is desirable, but why required?</div><div><br></div><=
div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div><div><br></div><div>B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Cia=
t=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time. &nbsp;=E2=80=
=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the event is different (on a=
n exceptional basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If S=
ET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims should be pr=
esent. I don't think iat should imply toe.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></=
div><div>Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.&nbsp; Shoul=
d we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span class=3D""><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><sp=
an class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:=
separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Ide=
ntity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ=
98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&amp;=
e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oct=
 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div=
></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight=
:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annab=
elle<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_2511=
139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a><wbr>=
&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb=
(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D=
"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_2511139720383718180m_-13023405120913=
01459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the p=
roposed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not assert=
ed, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=
=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly h=
elpful to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the S=
ET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br><=
/div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" li=
nk=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_2511139720383718180m_-130234051=
2091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'=
Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Ro=
man',serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-wid=
th:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_25111397203=
83718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D=
"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf=
.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<b=
r><b>To:<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D=
"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingi=
dentity.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"m_2511139720=
383718180h5"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "=
toe" claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><br class=3D"m_2511139720383718180w=
ebkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_251113972038371818=
0h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 2=
3, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (=
as correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as a=
lso noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
hanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@i=
etf.org" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mail=
to:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_2511139720=
383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sent:<=
/b><span class=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
hursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_2511139720=
383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_25111397=
20383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event]=
 Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">+1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather tha=
n trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "t=
oe"?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=
pt">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by sa=
ying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be acce=
pted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say that=
 nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. B=
ut don't change the meaning.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">A=
lso toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the nbf s=
ection. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined in Sec=
 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to reference nbf.&n=
bsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-wi=
dth:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5p=
t 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to =
Face meeting a question came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=
=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u>=
</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to=
 indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=
=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particul=
ar this is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurr=
ed earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discover=
ed through an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the=
 past).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m=
_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</span></a=
><a name=3D"m_2511139720383718180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_48184409499009857=
53_section-4.1.5" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed"></a><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not Bef=
ore) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identif=
ies the time before which the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST N=
OT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The processing of the "nbf"<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST be a=
fter or equal to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/ti=
me listed in the "nbf" claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
>&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minu=
tes, to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock skew.&nbsp; I=
ts value MUST be a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; N=
umericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As def=
ined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23sec=
tion-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_Fwyl=
RlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxH=
ZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the contex=
t of the SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the past=
) or will occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller t=
han "iat" such as<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; whe=
n it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; This c=
laim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument th=
at the redefinition will cause confusion.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvp=
UjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section&=
nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; The value is the date and t=
ime in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This=
 claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; W=
hen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be th=
e value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This=
 claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ignored.<u></u><u></u></pre><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are th=
ere any objections to the proposed change?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>@independentid</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m=
_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</=
a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u></u><u></u>=
</p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>_________________________=
_____<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id=
-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_2511139720383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?

Marius

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Time
> is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for
> ordering events overall.
>
> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would
> seem important no?
>
> Phil
>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the suggestio=
n
>> against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not as=
serted.
>>
>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the
>> event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>
>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of e=
vent, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should
>> be a required claim.
>>
>
> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and no=
t
> provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is
> desirable, but why required?
>
>
>
>>
>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used=
 to mark SET
>> issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the =
time of the event
>> is different (on an exceptional basis).
>>
>
> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims shoul=
d
> be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>
>
>>
>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we
>> proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biR=
rKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8=
uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the
>>> last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D MAY be assumed to be
>>> the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is neces=
sary or particularly helpful
>>> to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SE=
T
>>> level.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
>>> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Date: *Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>> *To: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing
>>> List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly
>>> wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also not=
ed in the
>>> reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                                 Thanks
>>> Phil and all,
>>>
>>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Brian Campbell
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine
>>> a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>
>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by
>>> saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT =
be
>>> accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to=
 say
>>> that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf =
at
>>> all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>
>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is th=
e
>>> nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defi=
ned
>>> in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to refer=
ence
>>> nbf.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regardin=
g
>>> SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that re=
definition was appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to
>>> indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =
=E2=80=94 a
>>> date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particula=
r
>>> this is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occu=
rred
>>> earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discov=
ered
>>> through an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in t=
he
>>> past).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>> 4.1.5
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_=
html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_=
FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>.
>>> "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the JW=
T
>>>
>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>>
>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>>>
>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers MA=
Y
>>>
>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, t=
o
>>>
>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>>
>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As defined in SET:
>>>
>>>    nbf
>>>
>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>
>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>
>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have
>>>
>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>>>
>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as
>>>
>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example
>>>
>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D (time
>>> of event). The proposed new
>>>
>>> definition:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> toe
>>>
>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>
>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event i=
s believed to have
>>>
>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is O=
PTIONAL.
>>>
>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assu=
med to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> nbf
>>>
>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOU=
LD
>>>
>>>       be ignored.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi=
RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuC=
VgHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylR=
lHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and
>>> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any
>>> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibite=
d.
>>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sen=
der
>>> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments f=
rom
>>> your computer. Thank you.*
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w
>>> &s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkK=
Y057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Y=
gd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mY=
pBY&e=3D>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_
>> BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&e=3D
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_
> TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU=
&e=3D
>
>

--001a1143e54650e6ad055c65522f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In some cases, ordering of events agai=
nst a single subject matters. Time is useful for this purpose though limite=
d in the overall stream for ordering events overall.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"=
m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-743407504=
7681755444AppleMailSignature">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowi=
ng what happened last would seem important no?<br><br>Phil</div><div><div c=
lass=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 20=
17 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It is not clear how to revise the document=
 with regards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If I remove=
 this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the event is defined=
 as.=C2=A0 There seem to be two options:<div><br></div><div>A. If =E2=80=9C=
iat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=
=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Why? Why can&#39;t the Transmitter assert that an accoun=
t was disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an =
event time is desirable, but why required?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v><div><br></div><div>B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time. =C2=A0=E2=80=9Cto=
e=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an ex=
ceptional basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If SET =
issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims should be pres=
ent. I don&#39;t think iat should imply toe.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><=
br></div><div>Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.=C2=A0=
 Should we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal)=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383=
718180Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:norma=
l;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Ph=
il</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Arc=
hitect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSe=
GJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw=
&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-=
7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div=
></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"=
m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_-74340750476=
81755444h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-7=
434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div></d=
iv><div><div><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM=
, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972=
0383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139=
720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div c=
lass=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the propos=
ed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, =
the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=
=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly he=
lpful to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the =
SET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br=
></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-=
US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_25=
11139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=
Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Am=
azon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;bord=
er-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444=
m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@iet=
f.org" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-743407=
5047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on=
 behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340=
75047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Date:<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<s=
pan class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340=
75047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcamp=
bell@pingidentity.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180=
cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidenti=
ty.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.=
org" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340750=
47681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><d=
iv><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><br><b>Subj=
ect:<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim w=
ith a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><br class=3D"=
m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180webkit-block-placeholder"></div>=
</div><div><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">Agreed +1 on Brian&#39;s edits.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 2=
3, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340=
75047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-b=
ottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">A=
nnabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wordsmithed b=
y Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the reply t=
o Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span clas=
s=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-7434=
075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- =
Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:<=
/b><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org=
" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340750476=
81755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>=
]<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2=
511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Brian Campbell<br=
><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>=
To:</b><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340750=
47681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:=
</b><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-even=
t@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7=
434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; cl=
aim with a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-bottom:12pt">+1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than tryi=
ng to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn&#39;t like a claim named &qu=
ot;toe&quot;?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-bottom:12pt">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefini=
ng it by saying it should be ignored, which isn&#39;t consistent with the &=
quot;MUST NOT be accepted for processing&quot; from RFC 7519. It would be m=
ore appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or ju=
st not mention nbf at all. But don&#39;t change the meaning.<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be &quot;Defined by Sect=
ion 4.1.5 [RFC7519]&quot;, which is the nbf section. The value of the toe c=
laim is a NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no re=
lation to nbf and no reason to reference nbf.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.=
hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed=
 m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none=
 solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">During t=
he OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding SET=E2=80=
=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that redefinition wa=
s appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition=
 is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred a=
s early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the is=
suance date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the sta=
te change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance (e=
.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative review or=
 data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><h4><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html=
_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxB=
KCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJkt=
joqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139=
720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;text-decorati=
on:none">4.1.5</span></a><a name=3D"m_-7434075047681755444_m_25111397203837=
18180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"=
m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cre=
med"></a><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">.=C2=A0 &quot;nbf&quot; (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4><p=
re>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 The &quot;nbf&quot; (not before) claim identifies the time before which=
 the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST NOT be accepted for proc=
essing.=C2=A0 The processing of the &quot;nbf&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or eq=
ual to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the not-before date/time listed=
 in the &quot;nbf&quot; claim.=C2=A0 Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re>=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few m=
inutes, to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 account for clock skew.=C2=
=A0 Its value MUST be a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 NumericDate value.=C2=A0 Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u=
></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">As defined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 nbf=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&a=
mp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRf=
JktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511=
139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Secti=
on=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 In the context of the=
 SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred (in the past) or=
 will occur in the future.=C2=A0 Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MAY be some cases where &quot;nbf&quot; is still s=
maller than &quot;iat&quot; such as<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for e=
xample<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 after some an=
alysis).=C2=A0 This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal is to register a different claim=
 name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>t=
oe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_=
html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&=
amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeR=
fJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_251=
1139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Sect=
ion=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 The value is the dat=
e and time in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred in the past or will occur in the fu=
ture. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assu=
med to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value S=
HOULD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored.<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Serv=
ices Architect</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan>@independentid</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__ww=
w.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkD=
o69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9=
PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837=
18180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independent=
id.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_____=
____________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.or=
g" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047=
681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_lis=
tinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69=
V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYA=
UTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837181=
80cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<br><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Segoe UI&#39;;colo=
r:rgb(85,85,85);border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">CONFIDENTIALITY NOT=
ICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the so=
le use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or discl=
osure by others is strictly prohibited.=C2=A0 If you have received this com=
munication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and del=
ete the message and any file attachments from your computer. Thank you.</sp=
an></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin=
-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371818=
0cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</=
a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www=
.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?

Phil

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>=20
> Marius
>=20
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Time i=
s useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for ordering e=
vents overall.=20
>>=20
>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would s=
eem important no?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrot=
e:
>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the suggesti=
on against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not ass=
erted.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the e=
vent is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>=20
>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of e=
vent, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.
>>>=20
>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and n=
ot provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is desirab=
le, but why required?
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly use=
d to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed=
 when the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).
>>>=20
>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims shou=
ld be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we proc=
eed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking t=
he last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do n=
ot think it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the semantic=
s of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> +1
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (I=
DM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing Li=
st <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>=
 wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wordsm=
ithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the r=
eply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                                                                 Thank=
s Phil and all,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                                                                 -- Mi=
ke
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian C=
ampbell
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefi=
ne a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by=
 saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be a=
ccepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say t=
hat nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all=
. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is t=
he nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is define=
d in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to referenc=
e nbf.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wro=
te:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regard=
ing SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that red=
efinition was appropriate.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indi=
cate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a=
 date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular th=
is is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred ea=
rlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered th=
rough an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past=
).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> 4.1.5.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the J=
WT
>>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal t=
o
>>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers M=
AY
>>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes,=
 to
>>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to ha=
ve
>>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: ther=
e
>>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such a=
s
>>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for examp=
le
>>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ct=
oe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> definition:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> toe
>>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a
>>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event=
 is believed to have
>>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is=
 OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be as=
sumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> nbf
>>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SH=
OULD
>>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
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--Apple-Mail-34B52DBC-B72C-453D-8A3E-ADCA1CEEDF7D
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>If an event doesn't have a time, did i=
t occur?<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurt=
escu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">As I=
 said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartm=
ail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (I=
DM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In some cases, ordering of events against a s=
ingle subject matters. Time is useful for this purpose though limited in the=
 overall stream for ordering events overall.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"m_-743407=
5047681755444AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-7434075047681755444=
AppleMailSignature">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what hap=
pened last would seem important no?<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"h5">=
<div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, P=
hil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=
=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word">It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the su=
ggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is n=
ot asserted.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>If I remove this clarification, it see=
ms unclear what the time of the event is defined as.&nbsp; There seem to be t=
wo options:<div><br></div><div>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be a=
ssumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a requi=
red claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why? Why can't t=
he Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and not provide a specifi=
c event time? I understand that an event time is desirable, but why required=
?</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div st=
yle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br></div><div>B. For the majority of=
 use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and e=
vent time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the e=
vent is different (on an exceptional basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then b=
oth claims should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.</div><div>=
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Some clarification from the group would be a=
ppreciated.&nbsp; Should we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some=
 other proposal).</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span><br><div>=

<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><sp=
an class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span" sty=
le=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>O=
racle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independenti=
d</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A_=
_www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmy=
l7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1U=
SlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"=
mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_-743407504768=
1755444h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-743407=
5047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><di=
v><div><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard B=
ackman, Annabelle<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
ichanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180crem=
ed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a><w=
br>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:sol=
id;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"whit=
e" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest strik=
ing the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I=
 do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the sem=
antics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple=
"><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-13023405120913=
01459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Tim=
es New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman=
',serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&=
nbsp;<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:=
1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681=
755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces=
@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-743=
4075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; o=
n behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" cl=
ass=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755=
444cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span c=
lass=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m=
_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D=
"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span cl=
ass=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.co=
m" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-74340750476=
81755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Eve=
nts Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-743407=
5047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"m_-74340=
75047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-7434=
075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>=
Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><br class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180webkit=
-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2=
511139720383718180h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br><br>Phi=
l<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
12pt"><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371818=
0cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-to=
p:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly w=
ordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in t=
he reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=
=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755=
444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&n=
bsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D=
"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-74340=
75047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_-74=
34075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b=
>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=
=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-7=
434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>P=
hil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-74340750476=
81755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Event=
s Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-74340=
75047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [=
Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u></u><u></u></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">+1 to SET defining a time of event claim r=
ather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim=
 named "toe"?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12pt">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining=
 it by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NO=
T be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to=
 say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf a=
t all. But don't change the meaning.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is t=
he nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is define=
d in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to referenc=
e nbf.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phi=
l Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681=
755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question c=
ame up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whe=
ther that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The inten=
tion of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate that an eve=
nt may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is d=
ifferent from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is useful in c=
ases where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier than the ti=
me of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administ=
rative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.i=
etf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwh=
WbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;text-decoration=
:none">4.1.5</span></a><a name=3D"m_-7434075047681755444_m_25111397203837181=
80_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"m_-7=
434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed">=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">.&nbsp; "=
nbf" (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) c=
laim identifies the time before which the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;=
&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The processing of the "nbf=
"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/=
time MUST be after or equal to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-=
before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small leeway, usually no more t=
han a few minutes, to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock=
 skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
>&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">As defined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; n=
bf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcx=
BKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;=
m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktj=
oqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972=
0383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section&nbs=
p;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the context of the SET tok=
en it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interp=
reted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the past) or will occur i=
n the future.&nbsp; Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when it took an exte=
nded time for a SET to be issued (for example<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; This claim is OPTIONAL.=
<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefiniti=
on will cause confusion.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal=
 is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time o=
f event). The proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">definition:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkIT=
SeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61=
w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-=
7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is=
 a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp;=
 The value is the date and time in which the event is believed to have<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or wi=
ll occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, th=
e value SHOULD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ign=
ored.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div=
><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Serv=
ices Architect</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an>@independentid</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.i=
ndependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_=
FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LM=
bCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cr=
emed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</=
a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180cremed m_-7434075047681755444cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-bottom:12pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>I=
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blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></=
div>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div clas=
s=3D"h5"><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><b=
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</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:07:23 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>

At undisclosed time and location :-)

I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not
MUST/REQUIRED.


> Phil
>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>
> Marius
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Time
>> is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for
>> ordering events overall.
>>
>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would
>> seem important no?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the
>>> suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is not asserted.
>>>
>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the
>>> event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>
>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of =
event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should
>>> be a required claim.
>>>
>>
>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and
>> not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is
>> desirable, but why required?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly use=
d to mark SET
>>> issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the=
 time of the event
>>> is different (on an exceptional basis).
>>>
>>
>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims
>> should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we
>>> proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5bi=
RrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v=
8uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking th=
e
>>>> last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be
>>>> the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is nece=
ssary or particularly helpful
>>>> to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the S=
ET
>>>> level.
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>
>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
>>>> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> *Date: *Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>> *To: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> *Cc: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing
>>>> List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly
>>>> wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also no=
ted in the
>>>> reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                                                 Thanks
>>>> Phil and all,
>>>>
>>>>                                                                 -- Mik=
e
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Brian Campbell
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefin=
e
>>>> a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>
>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by
>>>> saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT=
 be
>>>> accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate t=
o say
>>>> that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf=
 at
>>>> all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>
>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is
>>>> the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is
>>>> defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason=
 to
>>>> reference nbf.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up
>>>> regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whet=
her that redefinition was
>>>> appropriate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to
>>>> indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =
=E2=80=94 a
>>>> date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particul=
ar
>>>> this is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occ=
urred
>>>> earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was disco=
vered
>>>> through an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in =
the
>>>> past).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>> 4.1.5
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX=
5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V=
_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQip=
xHZiCG62w&e=3D>.
>>>> "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the J=
WT
>>>>
>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>>>
>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to
>>>>
>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers M=
AY
>>>>
>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, =
to
>>>>
>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>>>
>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>
>>>>    nbf
>>>>
>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>>
>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>
>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to hav=
e
>>>>
>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: there
>>>>
>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such a=
s
>>>>
>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for exampl=
e
>>>>
>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Cto=
e=E2=80=9D (time
>>>> of event). The proposed new
>>>>
>>>> definition:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> toe
>>>>
>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>>
>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event =
is believed to have
>>>>
>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is =
OPTIONAL.
>>>>
>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be ass=
umed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> nbf
>>>>
>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHO=
ULD
>>>>
>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>
>>>> @independentid
>>>>
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYu=
CVgHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM
>>> &s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&e=3D
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>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-
>> 1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU&e=3D
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--001a114446cc6b1735055c65729a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"auto"><div>If an event doesn&#39;t have a time, did it occur?<br></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At undisclosed time and location =
:-)</div><div><br></div><div>I think it is fine for &quot;toe&quot; to be S=
HOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIRED.</div><div><br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"h=
5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_403540186=
1108173736gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div><=
/div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In some cases, orderi=
ng of events against a single subject matters. Time is useful for this purp=
ose though limited in the overall stream for ordering events overall.=C2=A0=
</div><div id=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleM=
ailSignature">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened=
 last would seem important no?<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_403540=
1861108173736h5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed=
">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075=
047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:brea=
k-word">It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the sugg=
estion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is no=
t asserted.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If I remove this clarification, it see=
ms unclear what the time of the event is defined as.=C2=A0 There seem to be=
 two options:<div><br></div><div>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t =
be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a =
required claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why? Why =
can&#39;t the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and not provi=
de a specific event time? I understand that an event time is desirable, but=
 why required?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br></div><div>B. For=
 the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark =
SET issuance and event time. =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed whe=
n the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).</div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If SET issuance and event time are i=
ndeed the same then both claims should be present. I don&#39;t think iat sh=
ould imply toe.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Some clarificat=
ion from the group would be appreciated.=C2=A0 Should we proceed with B, or=
 revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
anks,</div><div><span><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681=
755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identi=
ty Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&=
amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3t=
Q98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&am=
p;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743=
4075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_403540186110=
8173736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius S=
curtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_4035401861=
108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@=
google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075=
047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><di=
v><div><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, =
2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span class=3D"m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" clas=
s=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed=
 m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">richanna@amazon.com</a><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_40354018611081737=
36m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest s=
triking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=
=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=
=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardiz=
e the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" v=
link=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_=
2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=
Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;=
border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173=
736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750476817=
55444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837=
18180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_40354=
01861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span></b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<span cl=
ass=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444=
m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<=
span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718=
180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743407504=
7681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681=
755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_=
4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035=
401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-ev=
ent@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7=
434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_=
4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim w=
ith a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><br class=3D"=
m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180webkit-bloc=
k-placeholder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-74340=
75047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian&#39;s=
 edits.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_40354018611081737=
36m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin=
-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correc=
tly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also not=
ed in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972=
0383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_=
2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike</span><u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=
=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@i=
etf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038=
3718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_4=
035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_=
-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n></b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-=
7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_4035401=
861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=
=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed =
m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" c=
lass=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cre=
med m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_403540186=
1108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &qu=
ot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=
+1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a s=
tandard claim. And who doesn&#39;t like a claim named &quot;toe&quot;?<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Howe=
ver, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by saying it=
 should be ignored, which isn&#39;t consistent with the &quot;MUST NOT be a=
ccepted for processing&quot; from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to=
 say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf=
 at all. But don&#39;t change the meaning.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be &quot;Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC751=
9]&quot;, which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a Numeric=
Date, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and=
 no reason to reference nbf.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep =
27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cr=
emed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote styl=
e=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a quest=
ion came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D a=
nd whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">T=
he intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate th=
at an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date=
 which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this i=
s useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earli=
er than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered thro=
ugh an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past)=
.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0Fk=
ITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSic=
H61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D=
"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4=
035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;text-de=
coration:none">4.1.5</span></a><a name=3D"m_4035401861108173736_m_-74340750=
47681755444_m_2511139720383718180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985=
753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25=
11139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed c=
remed"></a><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">.=C2=A0 &quot;nbf&quot; (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4>=
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 The &quot;nbf&quot; (not before) claim identifies the time before wh=
ich the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST NOT be accepted for p=
rocessing.=C2=A0 The processing of the &quot;nbf&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or=
 equal to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the not-before date/time lis=
ted in the &quot;nbf&quot; claim.=C2=A0 Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a fe=
w minutes, to<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 account for clock skew.=
=C2=A0 Its value MUST be a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate value.=C2=A0 Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">As defined in SET:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org=
_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXe=
RfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-74=
34075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-743407=
5047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]<=
/a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 In the context of the SET token it SHALL be=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 interpreted to mean=
 a date in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred (in the past) or will occur in the fut=
ure.=C2=A0 Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 MAY be some cases where &quot;nbf&quot; is still smaller than &quot;iat=
&quot; such as<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when =
it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 after some analysis).=C2=A0 This c=
laim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument =
that the redefinition will cause confusion.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=
=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23sect=
ion-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057Sb=
K10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_Fwy=
lRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQip=
xHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2=
511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose =
value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDa=
te.=C2=A0 The value is the date and time in which the event is believed to =
have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred in the=
 past or will occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 When not asserted, the value of =E2=
=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This claim is not used in SET Event=
s. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the=
 proposed change?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Ph=
il</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0</=
span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corpo=
ration, Identity Cloud Services Architect</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>@independentid</span><u></u><u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz=
jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=
=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401=
861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_40354018611=
08173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independ=
entid.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_40354018=
61108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_403540186110=
8173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
12pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_40354018611=
08173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.or=
g</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNK=
e4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooD=
WY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736=
m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
r><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Segoe UI&#39;;color:=
rgb(85,85,85);border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTIC=
E: This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole=
 use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclos=
ure by others is strictly prohibited.=C2=A0 If you have received this commu=
nication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delet=
e the message and any file attachments from your computer. Thank you.</span=
></i></b><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-t=
op:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">_____________________=
_________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mail=
to:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444creme=
d cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_i=
d-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK1=
0&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylR=
lHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78k=
db0VON8&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251=
1139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r<wbr>=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj<wbr>WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylR<wbr>lHOMC=
BjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w<wbr>&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaU<wbr>YAUT=
xg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div></div><=
/div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-e=
vent mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_403540=
1861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861=
108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ie=
tf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&amp;s=3D=
-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" cl=
ass=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180crem=
ed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br><br></blockq=
uote></div><br></div></div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:1=
2px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">___________=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?

It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases where iat =3D=
 toe.=20

Phil

> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>=20
> At undisclosed time and location :-)
>=20
> I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIR=
ED.
>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>=
 wrote:
>>>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Tim=
e is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for orderi=
ng events overall.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last woul=
d seem important no?
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wr=
ote:
>>>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the sugges=
tion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not a=
sserted.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the=
 event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time o=
f event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and=
 not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is desir=
able, but why required?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly u=
sed to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only need=
ed when the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims sh=
ould be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we pr=
oceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richan=
na@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking=
 the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=
=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I d=
o not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the seman=
tics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (=
IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing L=
ist <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" clai=
m
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m> wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly word=
smithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in the=
 reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                                                                 Tha=
nks Phil and all,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>                                                                 -- M=
ike
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bria=
n Campbell
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" clai=
m
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to rede=
fine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it b=
y saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be a=
ccepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say t=
hat nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all=
. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which i=
s the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is def=
ined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to refer=
ence nbf.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up rega=
rding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that r=
edefinition was appropriate.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to in=
dicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94=
 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular t=
his is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have occurred e=
arlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered t=
hrough an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the pas=
t).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> 4.1.5.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which th=
e JWT
>>>>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf=
"
>>>>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal=
 to
>>>>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementer=
s MAY
>>>>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minute=
s, to
>>>>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a=

>>>>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a=

>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to h=
ave
>>>>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: th=
ere
>>>>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" suc=
h as
>>>>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for exa=
mple
>>>>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20=

>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> definition:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> toe
>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519], a number whose value is a=

>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the eve=
nt is believed to have
>>>>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim i=
s OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be a=
ssumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> nbf
>>>>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value S=
HOULD
>>>>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and pri=
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se, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you hav=
e received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately=
 by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your compute=
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_Fwyl=
RlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpk=
KY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Y=
gd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYp=
BY&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY=
057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN=
9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU=
&e=3D=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPIa2=
k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338FdapSY&e=
=3D=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057S=
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FBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk6kE&e=3D=
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--Apple-Mail-57A6FCEB-9E0D-4F0F-A400-E458C057A64B
Content-Type: text/html;
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e">Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?</div><div id=3D"AppleMailS=
ignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It is more consistent but=
 adds a lot of duplication in many cases where iat =3D toe.&nbsp;<br><br>Phi=
l</div><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (I=
DM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>If an event doesn't have a t=
ime, did it occur?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At undisc=
losed time and location :-)</div><div><br></div><div>I think it is fine for "=
toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIRED.</div><div><br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>Phil</div><div><div c=
lass=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscur=
tescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_40354=
01861108173736gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</di=
v></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (I=
DM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In some cases, ordering of e=
vents against a single subject matters. Time is useful for this purpose thou=
gh limited in the overall stream for ordering events overall.&nbsp;</div><di=
v id=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSignature"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSignatur=
e">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last would s=
eem important no?<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736h=
5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@goo=
gle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2=
017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It is not clear ho=
w to revise the document with regards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=
=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.&nbsp;<div><br></=
div><div>If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of t=
he event is defined as.&nbsp; There seem to be two options:<div><br></div><d=
iv>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of ev=
ent, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that=
 an account was disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand=
 that an event time is desirable, but why required?</div><div><br></div><div=
>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div><div><br></div><div>B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=
=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an e=
xceptional basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If SET i=
ssuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims should be presen=
t. I don't think iat should imply toe.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div>=
<div>Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.&nbsp; Should we=
 proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div><div=
><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:=
break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:brea=
k-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><sp=
an class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180=
Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;borde=
r-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</d=
iv><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlN=
Ke4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761=
rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173=
736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.=
com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scu=
rtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@goog=
le.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743407504768=
1755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div=
><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04=
 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743407=
5047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_40354018611=
08173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173=
736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755=
444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple=
"><div class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371=
8180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overal=
l. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=
=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed t=
o be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is neces=
sary or particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing time-=
of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>+1</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style=
:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"=
white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4035401=
861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-130234051209130145=
9WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',seri=
f">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<=
u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;bo=
rder-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m=
_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i=
d-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750476817554=
44m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of=
 "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_40=
35401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401=
861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt=
@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743407=
5047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mo=
nday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173=
736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" clas=
s=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m=
_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span></b>Brian Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" c=
lass=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180crem=
ed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755=
444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div=
 class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5=
"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] R=
eplacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><b=
r class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180w=
ebkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_403540186110817373=
6m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian=
's edits.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m=
_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly wor=
dsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also noted in th=
e reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D=
"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-conve=
rted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m=
_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [=
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m=
_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-743=
4075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@iet=
f.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2=
511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span c=
lass=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sent:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:<=
/b><span class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383=
718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25=
11139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111=
39720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=
=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "=
toe" claim<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><=
div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">+1 to SET d=
efining a time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a standard clai=
m. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">However, the text there for nbf i=
s still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which isn'=
t consistent with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. I=
t would be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a=
 SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would not be "Defined by Sect=
ion 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim i=
s a NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation t=
o nbf and no reason to reference nbf.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On We=
d, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718=
180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote st=
yle=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a questi=
on came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and=
 whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The in=
tention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to indicate that an e=
vent may have occurred as early as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date which i=
s different from the issuance date of the SET. In particular this is useful i=
n cases where the state change is believed to have occurred earlier than the=
 time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was discovered through an admin=
istrative review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><h4><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tool=
s.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiue=
fwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_403540186110817373=
6m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7=
434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</span></a><=
a name=3D"m_4035401861108173736_m_-7434075047681755444_m_2511139720383718180=
_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" class=3D"m_4035=
401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_403540186=
1108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed"></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not Before) Claim</span=
><u></u><u></u></h4><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time bef=
ore which the JWT<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted f=
or processing.&nbsp; The processing of the "nbf"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nb=
sp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal t=
o<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in th=
e "nbf" claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; p=
rovide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST b=
e a number containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate val=
ue.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As defined in SET:=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5=
&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3D=
JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAv=
pUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;=
e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718=
180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the co=
ntext of the SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to h=
ave<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the p=
ast) or will occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: there<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smalle=
r than "iat" such as<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; w=
hen it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; This=
 claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument t=
hat the redefinition will cause confusion.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Cto=
e=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJ=
Bm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvp=
UjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837181=
80cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; The value=
 is the date and time in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will occur i=
n the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY b=
e assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value S=
HOULD<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ignored.<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archite=
ct</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>@independ=
entid</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;=
r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBj=
UEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&=
amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038=
3718180cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>=
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837181=
80cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_____________=
____<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D=
"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_40=
35401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-e=
vent@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D=
8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_40354018611=
08173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_4035401861108173=
736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
r><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:'Segoe UI';color:rgb(85,85=
,85);border:1pt none windowtext;padding:0in">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This em=
ail may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the=
 intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by other=
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rror, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message a=
nd any file attachments from your computer. Thank you.</span></i></b><u></u>=
<u></u></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bot=
tom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>____=
_____________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.or=
g" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180=
cremed m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICA=
g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSi=
cH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" class=3D=
"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_40=
35401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r<wbr>=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj<wbr>Ww=
lNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylR<wbr>lHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w<wbr>&a=
mp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaU<wbr>YAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><=
u></u></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br>___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mai=
lto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
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 cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urlde=
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Y&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"m_4035401861108173736m_-743407504768=
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44cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinf=
o/id-event</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div><span style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inl=
ine!important">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><b=
r style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none=
;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-fam=
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ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-even=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:52:57 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

>
> Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?
>

Yes



>
> It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases where
> iat =3D toe.
>

I don't think that should be a problem.



>
> Phil
>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>>
>
> At undisclosed time and location :-)
>
> I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not
> MUST/REQUIRED.
>
>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Tim=
e
>>> is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for
>>> ordering events overall.
>>>
>>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last woul=
d
>>> seem important no?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the
>>>> suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is not asserted.
>>>>
>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the
>>>> event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>
>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of=
 event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should
>>>> be a required claim.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and
>>> not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time is
>>> desirable, but why required?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly us=
ed to mark SET
>>>> issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when th=
e time of the event
>>>> is different (on an exceptional basis).
>>>>
>>>
>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims
>>> should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we
>>>> proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5b=
iRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1=
v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest striking
>>>>> the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to
>>>>> be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is =
necessary or particularly
>>>>> helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim=
 at
>>>>> the SET level.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>
>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Phil Hunt
>>>>> (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>> *To: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> *Cc: *Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing
>>>>> List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" clai=
m
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly
>>>>> wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also n=
oted in the
>>>>> reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 Thank=
s
>>>>> Phil and all,
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 --
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>> <id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Brian Campbell
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>> *To:* Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" clai=
m
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to
>>>>> redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it by
>>>>> saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST NO=
T be
>>>>> accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate =
to say
>>>>> that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or just not mention nb=
f at
>>>>> all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is
>>>>> the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which i=
s
>>>>> defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reaso=
n to
>>>>> reference nbf.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up
>>>>> regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whe=
ther that redefinition was
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to
>>>>> indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date=
 =E2=80=94 a
>>>>> date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. In particu=
lar
>>>>> this is useful in cases where the state change is believed to have oc=
curred
>>>>> earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the incident was disc=
overed
>>>>> through an administrative review or data analysis to have occurred in=
 the
>>>>> past).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>> 4.1.5
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.or=
g_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKC=
X5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69=
V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQi=
pxHZiCG62w&e=3D>.
>>>>> "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which the =
JWT
>>>>>
>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the "nbf"
>>>>>
>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal t=
o
>>>>>
>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  Implementers =
MAY
>>>>>
>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes,=
 to
>>>>>
>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing a
>>>>>
>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>
>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>
>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>>>
>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>>
>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to ha=
ve
>>>>>
>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: ther=
e
>>>>>
>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such =
as
>>>>>
>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for examp=
le
>>>>>
>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ct=
oe=E2=80=9D (time
>>>>> of event). The proposed new
>>>>>
>>>>> definition:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> toe
>>>>>
>>>>>       Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519] <https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=
=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH=
61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose v=
alue is a
>>>>>
>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the event=
 is believed to have
>>>>>
>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim is=
 OPTIONAL.
>>>>>
>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be as=
sumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> nbf
>>>>>
>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SH=
OULD
>>>>>
>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5=
biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZY=
uCVgHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_Fwy=
lRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb=
0VON8&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and
>>>>> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). An=
y
>>>>> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibi=
ted.
>>>>> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the s=
ender
>>>>> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments=
 from
>>>>> your computer. Thank you.*
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w
>>>>> &s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&e=3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h=
3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7=
mYpBY&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM
>>>> &s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj
>>> WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw
>>> &s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU&e=3D
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPIa2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNo
>> w&s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338FdapSY&e=3D
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3D
> JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D
> 3xoRnYeAqgWRqvjmh1fFBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_
> w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk6kE&e=3D
>
>

--001a1144528459ffd4055c66157c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignat=
ure">Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?</div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>Yes</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature">=
It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases where iat=
 =3D toe.=C2=A0<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t=
 think that should be a problem.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div id=3D"m_154560943511045646=
8AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 2=
5, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@goog=
le.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 P=
M, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle=
.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.h=
unt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><div>If an event doesn&#39;t have a time, did it occur?<br></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At undisclosed time and location=
 :-)</div><div><br></div><div>I think it is fine for &quot;toe&quot; to be =
SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIRED.</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"=
m_1545609435110456468h5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurt=
escu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_15456094351104=
56468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">As I said, I t=
otally agree it is useful. But why required?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div=
>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D=
"m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">=
<div>In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Ti=
me is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for orde=
ring events overall.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_403540186=
1108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_=
1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444AppleMailSign=
ature">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last w=
ould seem important no?<br><br>Phil</div><div><div class=3D"m_1545609435110=
456468m_4035401861108173736h5"><div><br>On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius=
 Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_15456094=
35110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09=
 AM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444=
cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word">It is not clear how to revise the document with r=
egards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9C=
toe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>If I remove this cla=
rification, it seems unclear what the time of the event is defined as.=C2=
=A0 There seem to be two options:<div><br></div><div>A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=
=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=
=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Why? Why can&#39;t the Transmitter assert that an account was =
disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event =
time is desirable, but why required?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div=
><br></div><div>B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is =
commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time. =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an exception=
al basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If SET issuanc=
e and event time are indeed the same then both claims should be present. I =
don&#39;t think iat should imply toe.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></di=
v><div>Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.=C2=A0 Should=
 we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><span><br><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_40354018611081=
73736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span" style=3D"=
border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Orac=
le Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid<=
/div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__=
www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dm=
yl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x=
1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_40354018=
61108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_154560943511=
0456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div>On Oct 23, 2017,=
 at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cr=
emed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@googl=
e.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"=
></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_403540186110817=
3736m_-7434075047681755444h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Anna=
belle<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047=
681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_154560943511=
0456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180crem=
ed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m=
_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a=
><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m=
_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D=
"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_40354018611081=
73736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordS=
ection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed =
text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the=
 value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9C=
iat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpf=
ul to standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET=
 level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1</div><div><br></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US"=
 link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_403540=
1861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301=
459WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border-style:so=
lid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);paddin=
g:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Fro=
m:<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681=
755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Id-event &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounc=
es@ietf.org" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Phil Hun=
t (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_154560=
9435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397203837181=
80cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cr=
emed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m=
_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720=
383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401=
861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_15456094351=
10456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_154560943511045=
6468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br=
><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Bri=
an Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" class=3D"m_15=
45609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383=
718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750476817554=
44cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pi=
ngidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"m_1545=
609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371=
8180h5"><br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_40354018611081=
73736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Replacing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &qu=
ot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><br class=3D"m_15456094351=
10456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180web=
kit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_1545609435110456468=
m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180h5"><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Agreed +1 on Brian&#39;s edits.=C2=A0<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On Oct 23, 2=
017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750476817554=
44m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-=
7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Annabelle and I agreed with this pro=
posed change (as correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person revie=
w =E2=80=93 as also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_40354018=
61108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span>Thanks Phil and all,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m=
_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720=
383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_1545609=
435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371818=
0Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-b=
ounces@ietf.org" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434=
075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_403540186=
1108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"=
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972=
0383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D=
"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Brian Campbell<br><b>Sen=
t:</b><span class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-743407504=
7681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Thursday=
, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_1545609435110456=
468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750476817=
55444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736=
m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_15456094=
35110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_403540186110817373=
6m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4=
035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Repl=
acing &quot;nbf&quot; claim with a new &quot;toe&quot; claim<u></u><u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">+1 to SET defining a time of ev=
ent claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn&#3=
9;t like a claim named &quot;toe&quot;?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">However, the text there for nbf is =
still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which isn&#=
39;t consistent with the &quot;MUST NOT be accepted for processing&quot; fr=
om RFC 7519. It would be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not b=
e included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don&#39;t change t=
he meaning.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also toe would no=
t be &quot;Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]&quot;, which is the nbf secti=
on. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 =
RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to reference nbf.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m=
_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_154=
5609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609=
435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none sol=
id;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in=
 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">During the O=
penID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s =
redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that redefinition was app=
ropriate.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is t=
o allow SET Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as ear=
ly as a specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuanc=
e date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state ch=
ange is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. b=
ecause the incident was discovered through an administrative review or data=
 analysis to have occurred in the past).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
The definition from JWT is:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><h4><a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7=
519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
TpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DN=
kDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6=
RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_15456094351104564=
68m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif;text-decoration:none">4.1.5</span></a><a name=3D"=
m_1545609435110456468_m_4035401861108173736_m_-7434075047681755444_m_251113=
9720383718180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_section-4.1.5" c=
lass=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_2=
511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340=
75047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed"></a><span style=3D=
"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">.=C2=A0 &quot;nbf&=
quot; (Not Before) Claim</span><u></u><u></u></h4><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 The &quot;nbf&quot; =
(not before) claim identifies the time before which the JWT<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 MUST NOT be accepted for processing.=C2=A0 The proces=
sing of the &quot;nbf&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 claim requ=
ires that the current date/time MUST be after or equal to<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 the not-before date/time listed in the &quot;nbf&quot; =
claim.=C2=A0 Implementers MAY<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 provide =
for some small leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 account for clock skew.=C2=A0 Its value MUST be a n=
umber containing a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate value.=
=C2=A0 Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As defined in SET=
:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4=
.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp=
;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMC=
BjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG6=
2w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340750=
47681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108=
173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 In=
 the context of the SET token it SHALL be<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 interpreted to mean a date in which the event is beli=
eved to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurre=
d (in the past) or will occur in the future.=C2=A0 Note: there<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 MAY be some cases where &quot;nb=
f&quot; is still smaller than &quot;iat&quot; such as<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 when it took an extended time for a SET t=
o be issued (for example<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 after some analysis).=C2=A0 This claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></p=
re><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will cause c=
onfusion.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The proposal is to regist=
er a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). Th=
e proposed new<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">definitio=
n:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><pre>toe<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Defined by <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&am=
p;s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_1545=
609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_251113972038371=
8180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444=
cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04=
.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 NumericDate.=C2=A0 The value is the date and ti=
me in which the event is believed to have<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 occurred in the past or will occur in the future. Thi=
s claim is OPTIONAL.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be=
 the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre>nbf<u></u><u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be ignored.<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Phil</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archite=
ct</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>@indepen=
dentid</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
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amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlH=
OMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hm=
To2eM&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-74340=
75047681755444m_2511139720383718180cremed m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861=
108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div></=
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736m_-7434075047681755444cremed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" target=
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ass=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is objection, I will revise the draft so that =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will become a recommended attribute.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?
>=20
> Yes
>=20
> =20
>=20
> It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases =
where iat =3D toe.=20
>=20
> I don't think that should be a problem.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>>=20
>> At undisclosed time and location :-)
>>=20
>> I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not =
MUST/REQUIRED.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>>>=20
>>> Marius
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. =
Time is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for =
ordering events overall.=20
>>>=20
>>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened last =
would seem important no?
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the =
suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
is not asserted.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of =
the event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>=20
>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time =
of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.
>>>>=20
>>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was disabled =
and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an event time =
is desirable, but why required?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly =
used to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only =
needed when the time of the event is different (on an exceptional =
basis).
>>>>=20
>>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both claims =
should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  Should we =
proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other proposal).
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8=
uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest =
striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to =
standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET =
level.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> +1
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com =
<mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" =
claim
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as correctly =
wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as also =
noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                                 =
Thanks Phil and all,
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Campbell
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" =
claim
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying to =
redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining it =
by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST =
NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more =
appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or =
just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which =
is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which =
is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no =
reason to reference nbf.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up =
regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and =
whether that redefinition was appropriate.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters to =
indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =
=E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. =
In particular this is useful in cases where the state change is believed =
to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the =
incident was discovered through an administrative review or data =
analysis to have occurred in the past).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 4.1.5 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D> <>.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before which =
the JWT
>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of the =
"nbf"
>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after or =
equal to
>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  =
Implementers MAY
>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a few =
minutes, to
>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number containing =
a
>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it SHALL be
>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to =
have
>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  Note: =
there
>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" =
such as
>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for =
example
>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause confusion.=20=

>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>>=20
>>>>> definition:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> toe
>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in which the =
event is believed to have
>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. This claim =
is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be =
assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> nbf
>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value =
SHOULD
>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>=20
>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCV=
gHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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ON8&e=3D>
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and =
privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any =
review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly =
prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please =
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>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlH=
OMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VO=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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ON8&e=3D>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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pBY&e=3D>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd=
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BY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Yg=
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pBY&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN=
9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8a=
xU&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdj=
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axU&e=3D>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPI=
a2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338Fdap=
SY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiP=
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pSY&e=3D>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D3xoRnYeAqgWRqvj=
mh1fFBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk6=
kE&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D3xoRnYeAqgWRqv=
jmh1fFBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk=
6kE&e=3D>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DG7gI1TT37IHsNVh=
TNm8SVkvFsD3lZrMqjkCCQRflMqE&s=3DzFIfIcUn_tP00p6yc2nLmuvlLZKhAZXv-rJr4iK0d=
-Y&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DG7gI1TT37IHsNV=
hTNm8SVkvFsD3lZrMqjkCCQRflMqE&s=3DzFIfIcUn_tP00p6yc2nLmuvlLZKhAZXv-rJr4iK0=
d-Y&e=3D>

--Apple-Mail=_620C089B-1E26-4242-8743-9FB73CEA8404
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is objection, I will revise the =
draft so that =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will become a recommended =
attribute.<div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D"">Are you =
proposing A with a should/recommended?</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" =
class=3D"">It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many =
cases where iat =3D toe.&nbsp;<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't think that =
should be a problem.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">If an event doesn't have a time, =
did it occur?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">At undisclosed time and location =
:-)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think it =
is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not =
MUST/REQUIRED.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468h5"><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct =
25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">As I said, I totally agree it is =
useful. But why required?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">In some cases, ordering of =
events against a single subject matters. Time is useful for this purpose =
though limited in the overall stream for ordering events =
overall.&nbsp;</div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D"">For example account locked vs unlocked. =
Knowing what happened last would seem important no?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736h5"><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444c=
remed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D"">It is not clear how to =
revise the document with regards to the suggestion against using =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not =
asserted.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I =
remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the event =
is defined as.&nbsp; There seem to be two options:<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t=
 be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should =
be a required claim.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert =
that an account was disabled and not provide a specific event time? I =
understand that an event time is desirable, but why required?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">B. For the majority of use cases, =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET issuance and event =
time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when the time of the =
event is different (on an exceptional =
basis).</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If SET issuance and event time are =
indeed the same then both claims should be present. I don't think iat =
should imply toe.</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Some clarification from =
the group would be appreciated.&nbsp; Should we proceed with B, or =
revise the text to A (or some other proposal).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D""><div style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkW=
gdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQT=
XoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444c=
remed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span>=
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444c=
remed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br =
class=3D""></span><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444h=
5"><div class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444c=
remed m_1545609435110456468cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444h=
5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, =
Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a><wbr =
class=3D"">&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I =
suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the =
value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or =
particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing =
time-of-event claim at the SET level.</p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">+1</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor=3D"white" =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180m_-1302340512091301459WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93=
 Identity Services<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil =
Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, =
October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian =
Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div class=3D""><div=
 =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180h5"><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: =
[Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180h5"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br =
class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks Phil and =
all,</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr =
class=3D"">org</a>]<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On =
Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian =
Campbell<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, =
September 28, 2017 8:23 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m=
_2511139720383718180Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">+1 to SET defining a =
time of event claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And =
who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
12pt;">However, the text there for nbf is still effectively redefining =
it by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent with the "MUST =
NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would be more =
appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a SET. Or =
just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also =
toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", which is the nbf =
section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, which is defined =
in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no reason to =
reference nbf.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep =
27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a =
question came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=
=9D and whether that redefinition was appropriate.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET =
Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a =
specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance =
date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state =
change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance =
(e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative =
review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<u class=3D""></u><u=
 class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">The definition from JWT is:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><h4 class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">4.1.5</span></a><a =
name=3D"m_1545609435110456468_m_4035401861108173736_m_-7434075047681755444=
_m_2511139720383718180_m_-1302340512091301459_m_4818440949900985753_sectio=
n-4.1.5" class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed"></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not =
Before) Claim</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></h4><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time =
before which the JWT<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The =
processing of the "nbf"<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST =
be after or equal to<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" =
claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small =
leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock =
skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be a number containing a<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate =
value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">As =
defined in SET:<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 =
[RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
NumericDate.&nbsp; In the context of the SET token it SHALL be<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interpreted to mean a date in =
which the event is believed to have<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: there<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" =
is still smaller than "iat" such as<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when =
it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; =
This claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">There is an argument that the redefinition will =
cause confusion.&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The =
proposal is to register a different claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D=
 (time of event). The proposed new<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">definition:<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"">toe<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 =
[RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
NumericDate.&nbsp; The value is the date and time in which the event is =
believed to have<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will =
occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When =
not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be =
the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">nbf<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><pre class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This =
claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></pre><pre =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be ignored.<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></pre><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Are =
there any objections to the proposed change?<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"">Phil</span><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"">@independentid</span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_Fwy=
lRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMb=
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m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444m_25111397=
20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"m_1545609435110456468cremed =
m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444cremed =
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20383718180cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></span><u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br =
class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
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20383718180cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 22:08:56 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/0GBIr3Fg4ll2WXx1WCao4xFv224>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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	charset=utf-8

MAY is normative permssive option.  =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D is used when =
you are stating a fact.

So in this case, Mike has changed the text to indicate that a client  =
may interpret =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.  It is phrased this way so =
that profiling specs can override.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> What does the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D in this sentence mean?
> When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed =
to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> I can think of a couple ways to read this, neither of which seem =
appropriate for SET:
> Profiling Specifications can declare that these are the semantics of a =
missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim, but if the Profiling Specification =
does not do so, then the semantics are still undefined.
> Why would this need to be specified at all?
> Unless a Profiling Specification says otherwise, these are the =
semantics of a missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim.
> What makes us think that this is an appropriate default? For many RISC =
events, the time of event will be unknown, or prohibitively expensive to =
know. Are the semantics of a null =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim allowed to =
be different from those of a missing claim?
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 2:59 PM
> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Brian Campbell =
<bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, =
ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
> =20
> OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is objection, I will revise the draft so that =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will become a recommended attribute.
> =20
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJqkGG3xeGS2Vi924yJIcOTAL3qMem9DPwM=
qLZCNnzkQ&s=3DXORReYS_NF-vNCx27DUk-5wAoDPe4cvG_nkEaPY6-Jk&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?
>> =20
>> Yes
>> =20
>> =20
>>> =20
>>> It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases =
where iat =3D toe.=20
>> =20
>> I don't think that should be a problem.
>> =20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>>>> =20
>>>> At undisclosed time and location :-)
>>>> =20
>>>> I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not =
MUST/REQUIRED.
>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject =
matters. Time is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall =
stream for ordering events overall.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened =
last would seem important no?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to the =
suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
is not asserted.=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the time =
of the event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the =
time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required claim.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was =
disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an =
event time is desirable, but why required?
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is =
commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an =
exceptional basis).
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both =
claims should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  =
Should we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other =
proposal).
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8=
uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest =
striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to =
standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET =
level.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com =
<mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new =
"toe" claim
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                             =
    Thanks Phil and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                             =
    -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Campbell
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new =
"toe" claim
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than trying =
to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named "toe"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively =
redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent =
with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would =
be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a =
SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", =
which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, =
which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no =
reason to reference nbf.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question =
came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D =
and whether that redefinition was appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET =
Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a =
specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance =
date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state =
change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance =
(e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative =
review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.1.5 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D> <>.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time before =
which the JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing of =
the "nbf"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be after =
or equal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  =
Implementers MAY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a =
few minutes, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number =
containing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it =
SHALL be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is =
believed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.  =
Note: there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than =
"iat" such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be issued =
(for example
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause =
confusion.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such as =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> toe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in =
which the event is believed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. =
This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nbf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, =
the value SHOULD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCV=
gHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential =
and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). =
Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly =
prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, please =
notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any =
file attachments from your computer. Thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlH=
OMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VO=
N8&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRl=
HOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0V=
ON8&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Yg=
d5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mY=
pBY&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd=
5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYp=
BY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Yg=
d5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mY=
pBY&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN=
9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8a=
xU&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdj=
N9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8=
axU&e=3D>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPI=
a2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338Fdap=
SY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiP=
Ia2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338Fda=
pSY&e=3D>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D3xoRnYeAqgWRqvj=
mh1fFBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk6=
kE&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3D3xoRnYeAqgWRqv=
jmh1fFBHbFqwPo0-S31KYrJ0sZK7g&s=3DOgn5vWSJQb1_w6_6zUlq8CPRkegi1x_3G-knlbZk=
6kE&e=3D>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DG7gI1TT37IHsNVh=
TNm8SVkvFsD3lZrMqjkCCQRflMqE&s=3DzFIfIcUn_tP00p6yc2nLmuvlLZKhAZXv-rJr4iK0d=
-Y&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DG7gI1TT37IHsNV=
hTNm8SVkvFsD3lZrMqjkCCQRflMqE&s=3DzFIfIcUn_tP00p6yc2nLmuvlLZKhAZXv-rJr4iK0=
d-Y&e=3D>
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_2DFAF4D1-5EF8-44FD-B376-C6390FE00562
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">MAY is normative permssive option. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D =
is used when you are stating a fact.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So in this case, Mike has changed the =
text to indicate that a client &nbsp;may interpret =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D =
as the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not =
asserted. &nbsp;It is phrased this way so that profiling specs can =
override.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What does the =
=E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D in this sentence mean?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">When not =
asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the =
value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I can think of a couple ways to read =
this, neither of which seem appropriate for SET:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Profiling Specifications can declare that these =
are the semantics of a missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim, but if the =
Profiling Specification does not do so, then the semantics are still =
undefined.<o:p class=3D""></o:p><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Why would this need to be =
specified at all?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Unless a Profiling =
Specification says otherwise, these are the semantics of a missing =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p><ol start=3D"1" =
type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">What makes us think that this =
is an appropriate default? For many RISC events, the time of event will =
be unknown, or prohibitively expensive to know. Are the semantics of a =
null =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim allowed to be different from those of a =
missing claim?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></li></ol><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, October 25, =
2017 at 2:59 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Brian Campbell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" =
class=3D"">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is objection, I will revise the =
draft so that =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will become a recommended =
attribute.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJqkGG3xeGS2=
Vi924yJIcOTAL3qMem9DPwMqLZCNnzkQ&amp;s=3DXORReYS_NF-vNCx27DUk-5wAoDPe4cvG_=
nkEaPY6-Jk&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct =
25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Are you proposing A with =
a should/recommended?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Yes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is more consistent =
but adds a lot of duplication in many cases where iat =3D toe.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don't think that =
should be a problem.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt =
(IDM)<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If an event doesn't have =
a time, did it occur?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">At undisclosed time and =
location :-)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think it is fine for =
"toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIRED.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As I said, I =
totally agree it is useful. But why required?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 25, =
2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In some cases, ordering =
of events against a single subject matters. Time is useful for this =
purpose though limited in the overall stream for ordering events =
overall.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened =
last would seem important no?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is not clear how to revise the document with =
regards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If I remove this =
clarification, it seems unclear what the time of the event is defined =
as.&nbsp; There seem to be two options:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D=
 can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D should be a required claim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Why? Why can't the =
Transmitter assert that an account was disabled and not provide a =
specific event time? I understand that an event time is desirable, but =
why required?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">B. For the majority =
of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark SET =
issuance and event time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed when =
the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If SET issuance and =
event time are indeed the same then both claims should be present. I =
don't think iat should imply toe.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Some clarification from =
the group would be appreciated.&nbsp; Should we proceed with B, or =
revise the text to A (or some other proposal).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkW=
gdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQT=
XoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 23, =
2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Agreed overall. Having reread the =
proposed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not =
asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the =
value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary =
or particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a missing =
time-of-event claim at the SET level.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; =
margin-right: 0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard =
Backman</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil Hunt =
(IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October =
23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks Phil and =
all,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On =
Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian =
Campbell<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, September =
28, 2017 8:23 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">+1 to SET defining a time of event =
claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't =
like a claim named "toe"?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">However, the text there for nbf is =
still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which =
isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC =
7519. It would be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be =
included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the =
meaning.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", =
which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, =
which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no =
reason to reference nbf.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">During =
the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding =
SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that =
redefinition was appropriate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET Transmitters =
to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a specified date =
=E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance date of the SET. =
In particular this is useful in cases where the state change is believed =
to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance (e.g. because the =
incident was discovered through an administrative review or data =
analysis to have occurred in the past).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The definition from JWT is:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><h4 style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">4.1.5</span></a></span><a =
name=3D"m_1545609435110456468_m_4035401861108173" class=3D""></a><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not Before) Claim</span><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></h4><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time =
before which the JWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for processing.&nbsp; The =
processing of the "nbf"<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST =
be after or equal to<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" =
claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small =
leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be =
a number containing a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this claim is =
OPTIONAL.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">As defined in SET:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is =
a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; In the =
context of the SET token it SHALL be<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
interpreted to mean a date in which the event is believed to have<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred (in the past) or will =
occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: there<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be =
some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than "iat" such as<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when it took an extended time =
for a SET to be issued (for example<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after =
some analysis).&nbsp; This claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There is an argument that =
the redefinition will cause confusion.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The proposal is to register a different =
claim name such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed =
new<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">definition:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">toe<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 [RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is =
a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate.&nbsp; The value =
is the date and time in which the event is believed to have<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the past or will =
occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When not asserted, the value =
of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">nbf<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This claim is not used in SET =
Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be =
ignored.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Are there any objections to the proposed change?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
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class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
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Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
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class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
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class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
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font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
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class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
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class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p =
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font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""=
 type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
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carUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
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class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><=
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type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
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g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
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wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338FdapSY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
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class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
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g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
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class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
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font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
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class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><b=
r class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Apologies=E2=80=A6 I meant to say, Mike provided some better text =
describing the optionality.  That should be published shortly.


Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:21 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>=20
> MAY is normative permssive option.  =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D is used when =
you are stating a fact.
>=20
> So in this case, Mike has changed the text to indicate that a client  =
may interpret =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.  It is phrased this way so =
that profiling specs can override.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DcIteJB5ZijM705Ltaca_lGP4yuQYb6gfsf=
I9KWczkIA&s=3DHMiIQmSMu9lfslgKQt0YUYrnTvVW3InpmiC8sPlHMv0&e=3D>phil.hunt@o=
racle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> What does the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D in this sentence mean?
>> When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed =
to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>> =20
>> I can think of a couple ways to read this, neither of which seem =
appropriate for SET:
>> Profiling Specifications can declare that these are the semantics of =
a missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim, but if the Profiling =
Specification does not do so, then the semantics are still undefined.
>> Why would this need to be specified at all?
>> Unless a Profiling Specification says otherwise, these are the =
semantics of a missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim.
>> What makes us think that this is an appropriate default? For many =
RISC events, the time of event will be unknown, or prohibitively =
expensive to know. Are the semantics of a null =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
claim allowed to be different from those of a missing claim?
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 at 2:59 PM
>> To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>>
>> Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, Brian Campbell =
<bcampbell@pingidentity.com <mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>>, Mike =
Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
>> =20
>> OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is objection, I will revise the draft so =
that =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will become a recommended attribute.
>> =20
>> Phil
>> =20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DJqkGG3xeGS2Vi924yJIcOTAL3qMem9DPwM=
qLZCNnzkQ&s=3DXORReYS_NF-vNCx27DUk-5wAoDPe4cvG_nkEaPY6-Jk&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> =20
>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com =
<mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>> =20
>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> Are you proposing A with a should/recommended?
>>> =20
>>> Yes
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> It is more consistent but adds a lot of duplication in many cases =
where iat =3D toe.=20
>>> =20
>>> I don't think that should be a problem.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> If an event doesn't have a time, did it occur?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> At undisclosed time and location :-)
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I think it is fine for "toe" to be SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not =
MUST/REQUIRED.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> As I said, I totally agree it is useful. But why required?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Marius
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In some cases, ordering of events against a single subject =
matters. Time is useful for this purpose though limited in the overall =
stream for ordering events overall.=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what happened =
last would seem important no?
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It is not clear how to revise the document with regards to =
the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=
=9D is not asserted.=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> If I remove this clarification, it seems unclear what the =
time of the event is defined as.  There seem to be two options:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=99t be assumed to be =
the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D should be a required =
claim.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Why? Why can't the Transmitter assert that an account was =
disabled and not provide a specific event time? I understand that an =
event time is desirable, but why required?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> B. For the majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is =
commonly used to mark SET issuance and event time.  =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
is only needed when the time of the event is different (on an =
exceptional basis).
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> If SET issuance and event time are indeed the same then both =
claims should be present. I don't think iat should imply toe.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Some clarification from the group would be appreciated.  =
Should we proceed with B, or revise the text to A (or some other =
proposal).
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
KugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8=
uDSW5PqIw&s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQTXoCNeLFAZA&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu =
<mscurtescu@google.com <mailto:mscurtescu@google.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed overall. Having reread the proposed text, I suggest =
striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen not asserted, the value of =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is necessary or particularly helpful to =
standardize the semantics of a missing time-of-event claim at the SET =
level.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of "Phil Hunt (IDM)" =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 5:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com =
<mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new =
"toe" claim
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2017, at 5:05 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                            =
     Thanks Phil and all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                            =
     -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Campbell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:23 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new =
"toe" claim
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 to SET defining a time of event claim rather than =
trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't like a claim named =
"toe"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the text there for nbf is still effectively =
redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which isn't consistent =
with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC 7519. It would =
be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be included in a =
SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the meaning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 =
[RFC7519]", which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a =
NumericDate, which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation =
to nbf and no reason to reference nbf.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> During the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question =
came up regarding SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D =
and whether that redefinition was appropriate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET =
Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a =
specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance =
date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state =
change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance =
(e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative =
review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The definition from JWT is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.1.5 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D> <>.  "nbf" (Not Before) Claim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time =
before which the JWT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    MUST NOT be accepted for processing.  The processing =
of the "nbf"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    claim requires that the current date/time MUST be =
after or equal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    the not-before date/time listed in the "nbf" claim.  =
Implementers MAY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    provide for some small leeway, usually no more than a =
few minutes, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    account for clock skew.  Its value MUST be a number =
containing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    NumericDate value.  Use of this claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As defined in SET:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    nbf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  In the context of the SET token it =
SHALL be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       interpreted to mean a date in which the event is =
believed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future. =
 Note: there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       MAY be some cases where "nbf" is still smaller than =
"iat" such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       when it took an extended time for a SET to be =
issued (for example
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       after some analysis).  This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is an argument that the redefinition will cause =
confusion.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal is to register a different claim name such =
as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       Defined by Section=C2=A04.1.5 [RFC7519] =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm=
l_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YT=
pkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DNkDo69V_F=
wylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&s=3D00sEiuefwhWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipx=
HZiCG62w&e=3D>, a number whose value is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       NumericDate.  The value is the date and time in =
which the event is believed to have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       occurred in the past or will occur in the future. =
This claim is OPTIONAL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       When not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D=
 MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nbf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       This claim is not used in SET Events. If asserted, =
the value SHOULD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       be ignored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any objections to the proposed change?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRr=
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gHSicH61w&s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMbCa_hmTo2eM&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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ON8&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain =
confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended =
recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is =
strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication in error, =
please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message =
and any file attachments from your computer. Thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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ON8&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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pBY&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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BY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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pBY&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN=
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xU&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
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axU&e=3D>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPI=
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SY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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pSY&e=3D>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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6kE&e=3D>=20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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d-Y&e=3D>
>> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
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taca_lGP4yuQYb6gfsfI9KWczkIA&s=3DgBMWCs2G910-j4L2BsK3V2ncAc3wjr-TQ05PpTlIz=
SY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3DcIteJB5ZijM705=
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zSY&e=3D>

--Apple-Mail=_BA4C25AB-FA9C-493E-967C-9D1271C2DB1C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Apologies=E2=80=A6 I meant to say, Mike provided some better =
text describing the optionality. &nbsp;That should be published =
shortly.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:21 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">MAY is normative permssive =
option. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D is used when you are stating a =
fact.</span><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">So in this =
case, Mike has changed the text to indicate that a client &nbsp;may =
interpret =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted. &nbsp;It is phrased this way =
so that profiling specs can override.</div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
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normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DcIteJB5ZijM=
705Ltaca_lGP4yuQYb6gfsfI9KWczkIA&amp;s=3DHMiIQmSMu9lfslgKQt0YUYrnTvVW3Inpm=
iC8sPlHMv0&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
26, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">What does the =
=E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D in this sentence mean?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">When not =
asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the =
value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I can think of a couple ways to read =
this, neither of which seem appropriate for SET:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;"><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Profiling Specifications can =
declare that these are the semantics of a missing =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
claim, but if the Profiling Specification does not do so, then the =
semantics are still undefined.<o:p class=3D""></o:p><ol start=3D"1" =
type=3D"a" class=3D"" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;"><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Why would this need to be =
specified at all?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Unless a Profiling =
Specification says otherwise, these are the semantics of a missing =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p><ol start=3D"1" =
type=3D"a" class=3D"" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;"><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">What makes us think that this =
is an appropriate default? For many RISC events, the time of event will =
be unknown, or prohibitively expensive to know. Are the semantics of a =
null =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D claim allowed to be different from those of a =
missing claim?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></li></ol><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, October 25, =
2017 at 2:59 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, Brian Campbell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" =
class=3D"">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">OK=E2=80=A6.unless there is =
objection, I will revise the draft so that =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D will =
become a recommended attribute.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity =
Cloud Services Architect<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DJqkGG3xeGS2=
Vi924yJIcOTAL3qMem9DPwMqLZCNnzkQ&amp;s=3DXORReYS_NF-vNCx27DUk-5wAoDPe4cvG_=
nkEaPY6-Jk&amp;e=3D" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote=
 class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: =
5pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">On Oct 25, 2017, at =
2:52 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Are you proposing A with a =
should/recommended?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Yes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">It is more consistent but adds a =
lot of duplication in many cases where iat =3D toe.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">I don't think that should be a =
problem.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468AppleMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM, =
Phil Hunt (IDM)<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">If an =
event doesn't have a time, did it occur?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">At undisclosed time and location =
:-)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">I think it is fine for "toe" to be =
SHOULD/RECOMMENDED, but not MUST/REQUIRED.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">As I said, =
I totally agree it is useful. But why required?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Marius<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">On Wed, =
Oct 25, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM)<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">In some =
cases, ordering of events against a single subject matters. Time is =
useful for this purpose though limited in the overall stream for =
ordering events overall.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
id=3D"m_1545609435110456468m_4035401861108173736m_-7434075047681755444Appl=
eMailSignature" class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">For example account locked vs unlocked. Knowing what =
happened last would seem important no?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2017, at 1:46 PM, =
Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 11:09 AM, =
Phil Hunt<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">It is not clear how to revise the =
document with regards to the suggestion against using =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D=
 when =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is not asserted.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">If I remove this clarification, it =
seems unclear what the time of the event is defined as.&nbsp; There seem =
to be two options:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">A. If =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D can=E2=80=
=99t be assumed to be the time of event, then =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D =
should be a required claim.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Why? Why can't the Transmitter =
assert that an account was disabled and not provide a specific event =
time? I understand that an event time is desirable, but why =
required?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">B. For the =
majority of use cases, =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is commonly used to mark =
SET issuance and event time. &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D is only needed =
when the time of the event is different (on an exceptional basis).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">If SET issuance and event time are =
indeed the same then both claims should be present. I don't think iat =
should imply toe.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Some clarification from the group =
would be appreciated.&nbsp; Should we proceed with B, or revise the text =
to A (or some other proposal).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkW=
gdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3DA9761rPXfFdeqzJ4pRN-BQ_x1USlM2bQT=
XoCNeLFAZA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">On Oct 23, =
2017, at 6:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Agreed overall. Having reread =
the proposed text, I suggest striking the last sentence, =E2=80=9CWhen =
not asserted, the value of =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be =
the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D.=E2=80=9D I do not think it is =
necessary or particularly helpful to standardize the semantics of a =
missing time-of-event claim at the SET level.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">+1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; =
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">--&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Annabelle Richard =
Backman</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">From:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Id-event &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of "Phil Hunt =
(IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Monday, October =
23, 2017 at 5:48 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian Campbell =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Agreed +1 on Brian's edits.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Oct 23, 2017, at =
5:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);">Annabelle and I agreed with this proposed change (as =
correctly wordsmithed by Brian) during our in-person review =E2=80=93 as =
also noted in the reply to Marius=E2=80=99 comments.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thanks Phil and =
all,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On =
Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Brian =
Campbell<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, September =
28, 2017 8:23 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>ID Events Mailing =
List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D""=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m1545609435110456468m4035401861108173736m-7434075047681755444m251=
1139720383718180apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] =
Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">+1 to SET defining a time of event =
claim rather than trying to redefine a standard claim. And who doesn't =
like a claim named "toe"?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">However, the text there for nbf is =
still effectively redefining it by saying it should be ignored, which =
isn't consistent with the "MUST NOT be accepted for processing" from RFC =
7519. It would be more appropriate to say that nbf should/must not be =
included in a SET. Or just not mention nbf at all. But don't change the =
meaning.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">Also toe would not be "Defined by Section 4.1.5 [RFC7519]", =
which is the nbf section. The value of the toe claim is a NumericDate, =
which is defined in Sec 2 RFC7519. But toe has no relation to nbf and no =
reason to reference nbf.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">On =
Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">During =
the OpenID RISC Face to Face meeting a question came up regarding =
SET=E2=80=99s redefinition of =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D and whether that =
redefinition was appropriate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">The intention of SETs definition is to allow SET =
Transmitters to indicate that an event may have occurred as early as a =
specified date =E2=80=94 a date which is different from the issuance =
date of the SET. In particular this is useful in cases where the state =
change is believed to have occurred earlier than the time of issuance =
(e.g. because the incident was discovered through an administrative =
review or data analysis to have occurred in the past).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The definition from JWT is:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><h4 class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D""=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; =
text-decoration: none;">4.1.5</span></a></span><a =
name=3D"m_1545609435110456468_m_4035401861108173" class=3D""></a><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">.&nbsp; "nbf" (Not Before) Claim</span><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></h4><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "nbf" (not before) claim identifies the time =
before which the JWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST NOT be accepted for =
processing.&nbsp; The processing of the "nbf"<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; claim requires that the current date/time MUST be =
after or equal to<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; the not-before date/time listed in =
the "nbf" claim.&nbsp; Implementers MAY<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; provide for some small =
leeway, usually no more than a few minutes, to<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; account for clock skew.&nbsp; Its value MUST be a =
number containing a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; NumericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this =
claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">As defined in SET:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; nbf<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D""=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 =
[RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
NumericDate.&nbsp; In the context of the SET token it SHALL be<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; interpreted to mean a date in =
which the event is believed to have<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
occurred (in the past) or will occur in the future.&nbsp; Note: =
there<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MAY be some cases where "nbf" is =
still smaller than "iat" such as<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when =
it took an extended time for a SET to be issued (for example<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; after some analysis).&nbsp; This =
claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">There is an argument that the redefinition will =
cause confusion.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">The proposal is to register a different claim name =
such as =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D (time of event). The proposed new<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">definition:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">toe<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Defined by <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_rfc7519-23section-2D4.1.5&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_=
lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D00sEiuef=
whWbXeRfJktjoqN6RGOniHiQipxHZiCG62w&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D""=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Section&nbsp;4.1.5 =
[RFC7519]</a>, a number whose value is a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
NumericDate.&nbsp; The value is the date and time in which the event is =
believed to have<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occurred in the =
past or will occur in the future. This claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When not asserted, the value of =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D MAY be assumed to be the value of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">nbf<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This claim is not used in SET =
Events. If asserted, the value SHOULD<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be =
ignored.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Are there any objections to the proposed =
change?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services =
Architect<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK=
10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_Fwy=
lRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D1_Z7OvAyaxlesCdLNC5qsa5Xj9PZQ-LMb=
Ca_hmTo2eM&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3=
Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Segoe UI'; color: =
rgb(85, 85, 85); border: 1pt none windowtext; padding: =
0in;">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and =
privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any =
review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly =
prohibited.&nbsp; If you have received this communication in error, =
please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message =
and any file attachments from your computer. Thank =
you.</span></i></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1FwTG3=
Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DNkDo69V_FwylRlHOMCBjUEAvpUjBpZYuCVgHSicH61w&amp;s=3D8AooDWY1F=
wTG3Bj2ELWqpT7XAaUYAUTxg78kdb0VON8&amp;e=3D</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&amp;s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMb=
tuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&amp;s=3D-zJLNs_G_PXMb=
tuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3DXFb85vuDk0h3Ygd5qlx4iuR7LR7evV_BU0fLL05dXBM&amp;s=3D-zJLNs_G_=
PXMbtuyAAo5KSnqZau4BHf7-JFfe7mYpBY&amp;e=3D</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3D7O5N5qBNGK8GM=
carUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3Dmyl7g4hppkWgdjN9T_TyM3tQ98EeI6-1v8uDSW5PqIw&amp;s=3D7O5N5qBNG=
K8GMcarUwHEtSkNgfogFmv_q6_o0qv8axU&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>=
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><=
blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPIa2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&amp;s=3D5fyljqOSViRQ9=
wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338FdapSY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_l=
LIGk&amp;m=3Dk17XiXhDcASFiPIa2k868J7D8w8RkO4wx0rjYi8wNow&amp;s=3D5fyljqOSV=
iRQ9wnyMXUZ_fQ1_nuacoh3xx338FdapSY&amp;e=3D</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>=
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">Id-event@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Security Events WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Security Event Token (SET)
        Authors         : Phil Hunt
                          William Denniss
                          Morteza Ansari
                          Michael B. Jones
	Filename        : draft-ietf-secevent-token-03.txt
	Pages           : 24
	Date            : 2017-10-26

Abstract:
   This specification defines the Security Event Token, which may be
   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be
   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
   fact from the perspective of an issuer that it intends to share with
   one or more receivers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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	charset=utf-8

This draft  incorporates feedback from comments and discussion since the =
WGLC.

* Corrected subscriber to Event Receiver
* Removed =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D claim
* Introduced =E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D or time of event
* Figure 3 moved =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to event payload in figure
* Clarified use of nonce when differentiating from JWTs
* Editorial improvements and clarifications

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:27 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Security Events WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Security Event Token (SET)
>        Authors         : Phil Hunt
>                          William Denniss
>                          Morteza Ansari
>                          Michael B. Jones
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-secevent-token-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 24
> 	Date            : 2017-10-26
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines the Security Event Token, which may be
>   distributed via a protocol such as HTTP.  The Security Event Token
>   (SET) specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be
>   optionally signed and/or encrypted.  A SET describes a statement of
>   fact from the perspective of an issuer that it intends to share with
>   one or more receivers.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.or=
g_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
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nnTGRb7VnJexYAGCc&e=3D=20
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html=
_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
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ZnlZQlMCrUBG8QbCA&e=3D=20
> =
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g_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
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>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdif=
f-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
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>=20
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> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
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> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dftp-3A__ftp.ietf.org_internet=
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">This draft &nbsp;incorporates feedback from comments and =
discussion since the WGLC.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">* Corrected subscriber to Event Receiver</div><div class=3D"">*=
 Removed =E2=80=9Cnbf=E2=80=9D claim</div><div class=3D"">* Introduced =
=E2=80=9Ctoe=E2=80=9D or time of event</div><div class=3D"">* Figure 3 =
moved =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D to event payload in figure</div><div =
class=3D"">* Clarified use of nonce when differentiating from =
JWTs</div><div class=3D"">* Editorial improvements and =
clarifications</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 26, 2017, at 5:27 PM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D"">This draft is a work item of =
the Security Events WG of the IETF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Security =
Event Token (SET)<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authors =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Phil Hunt<br class=3D"">=
 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;William Denniss<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Morteza Ansari<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Michael B. Jones<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
draft-ietf-secevent-token-03.txt<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Pages =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: 24<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Date =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
2017-10-26<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This specification defines the Security Event Token, which =
may be<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;distributed via a protocol such as =
HTTP. &nbsp;The Security Event Token<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(SET) =
specification profiles the JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;optionally signed and/or encrypted. &nbsp;A SET =
describes a statement of<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;fact from the =
perspective of an issuer that it intends to share with<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;one or more receivers.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&amp;=
s=3D13DdZOaFgaD-HGP2pOCNkOpTyRnnTGRb7VnJexYAGCc&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJx=
PEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&a=
mp;s=3D13DdZOaFgaD-HGP2pOCNkOpTyRnnTGRb7VnJexYAGCc&amp;e=3D</a> <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are also htmlized versions available =
at:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1Y=
umCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEiv=
zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&amp;s=
=3DBksQtIbBnjpETfC7vLs92O1B3-ZnlZQlMCrUBG8QbCA&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxP=
EivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&am=
p;s=3DBksQtIbBnjpETfC7vLs92O1B3-ZnlZQlMCrUBG8QbCA&amp;e=3D</a> <br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqX=
JZy8&amp;s=3DVpIQD9_-bNURLCQCxp-hVvXMul6YgqSO8Nxw1X1KHbg&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_Q=
fqXJZy8&amp;s=3DVpIQD9_-bNURLCQCxp-hVvXMul6YgqSO8Nxw1X1KHbg&amp;e=3D</a> =
<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is =
available at:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkI=
TSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqX=
JZy8&amp;s=3DaydXxUYGSvtw1dd4n39uYsU-QKVu9lBPPVYxIy2UjiU&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken-2D03&amp;d=3DDwICAg&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0=
FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_Q=
fqXJZy8&amp;s=3DaydXxUYGSvtw1dd4n39uYsU-QKVu9lBPPVYxIy2UjiU&amp;e=3D</a> =
<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may =
take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until =
the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dftp-3A__ftp.ietf.org_=
internet-2Ddrafts_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTp=
kKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3DiE=
3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&amp;s=3DmUk0Dul3biGp6ditTT_cLwjq=
iqu1kyHHgYP2i8K5ymU&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dftp-3A__ftp.ietf.o=
rg_internet-2Ddrafts_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5=
YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D=
iE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&amp;s=3DmUk0Dul3biGp6ditTT_cLw=
jqiqu1kyHHgYP2i8K5ymU&amp;e=3D</a> <br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3DiE3v6CSLR7pkOg7J2eBLwuzxpnZwAfRFFI_QfqXJZy8&amp;s=3DZNG7JDnbqH=
3z0vVbAlHsaF8rHDSCPzG-IUK3uQDwNME&amp;e=3D <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Replacing "nbf" claim with a new "toe" claim
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the 
definition of the "events" claim:

Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and 
MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this 
claim to contain only a single event statement.

Thanks,
	Yaron

On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
> I agree with much of Phil’s rationale here.
> 
> It’s fine for some profiles to say that the “events” set must be a 
> singleton.  That doesn’t have to be true for all events.  I think things 
> are fine as-is.
> 
>                                                                  -- Mike
> 
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
> 
> Annabelle,
> 
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
> 
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
> 
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more 
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event 
> payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations 
> and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format 
> allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which 
> can each have independent structure.
> 
> General extensions
> 
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to 
> any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not 
> want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose 
> items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional 
> data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I 
> see no good reason to rule this out.
> 
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a 
> single family like RISC)
> 
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC 
> events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a 
> time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don’t see a reason to 
> rule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each 
> profile is expressing slightly different things about the same event.
> 
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and 
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
> 
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real…just possibilities):
> 
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events 
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel 
> Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
> 
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple 
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple 
> effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by “txn” 
> would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system. 
>   The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block 
> this capability.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express 
> multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.
> 
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a 
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events 
> are related but express different data.
> 
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction
> 
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) 
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled 
> as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I’m not 
> sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed 
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
> 
> Previous Discussion
> 
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary 
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:
> 
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> 
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> 
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to 
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and 
> the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one 
> RISC event be expressed at a time.
> 
> Phil
> 
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> 
> @independentid
> 
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
> 
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> 
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
> 
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We’ve discussed this in the OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     “events” claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it
>     with the following definition for an “event” claim (singular):
> 
>     event
> 
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
> 
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
> 
>     {
> 
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
> 
>        "iat": 1458496404,
> 
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
> 
>        "aud": [
> 
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
> 
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
> 
>        ],
> 
>        "event": {
> 
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
> 
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
> 
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
> 
>        }
> 
>     }
> 
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
> 
>     **
> 
>     *Extensions*
> 
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an “extensions” member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the “events”
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
> 
>     *Aliases*
> 
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
> 
>     *Related Events*
> 
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
> 
>     -- 
> 
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
> 
>     Amazon – Identity Services
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Id-event mailing list
>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=s5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org
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> 


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Hi Phil, you may have fixed these ones already...

* Typo: "in and related specifications." (probably an xml2rfc-related bug)
* "toe" is defined as "Numeric Data", should be "NumericDate".

Thanks,
     Yaron


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Found the issue and posted in github. It will be in the 04 update (post =
Singapore?)


Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:41 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Phil, you may have fixed these ones already...
>=20
> * Typo: "in and related specifications." (probably an xml2rfc-related =
bug)
> * "toe" is defined as "Numeric Data", should be "NumericDate".
>=20
> Thanks,
>     Yaron
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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class=3D"">Found the issue and posted in github. It will be in the 04 =
update (post Singapore?)<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
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<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
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class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Phil, you may have fixed these ones already...<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">* Typo: "in and related specifications." (probably an =
xml2rfc-related bug)<br class=3D"">* "toe" is defined as "Numeric Data", =
should be "NumericDate".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br =
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Security Events WG of the IETF.

        Title           : SET Token Delivery Using HTTP
        Authors         : Phil Hunt
                          Marius Scurtescu
                          Morteza Ansari
                          Anthony Nadalin
                          Annabelle Richard Backman
	Filename        : draft-ietf-secevent-delivery-01.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2017-10-29

Abstract:
   This specification defines how a series of security event tokens
   (SETs) may be delivered to a previously registered receiver using
   HTTP POST over TLS initiated as a push to the receiver, or as a poll
   by the receiver.  The specification also defines how delivery can be
   assured subject to the SET Token Receiver's need for assurance.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-secevent-delivery-01


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Per the discussion at IETF99, the Verification Section (2.5) has been =
removed. =20

Verification is now part of the Control Plane specification proposals.

Regards,

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 1:15 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Security Events WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : SET Token Delivery Using HTTP
>        Authors         : Phil Hunt
>                          Marius Scurtescu
>                          Morteza Ansari
>                          Anthony Nadalin
>                          Annabelle Richard Backman
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-secevent-delivery-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 26
> 	Date            : 2017-10-29
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines how a series of security event tokens
>   (SETs) may be delivered to a previously registered receiver using
>   HTTP POST over TLS initiated as a push to the receiver, or as a poll
>   by the receiver.  The specification also defines how delivery can be
>   assured subject to the SET Token Receiver's need for assurance.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.or=
g_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
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>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> =
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> =
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g_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery-2D01&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumC=
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>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> =
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> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
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>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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--Apple-Mail=_F7D94F85-102C-4F48-B801-36C0974FFD4D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Per the discussion at IETF99, the Verification Section (2.5) =
has been removed. &nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Verification is now part of the Control Plane specification =
proposals.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Regards,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 29, 2017, at 1:15 PM, <a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line =
Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D"">This draft is a work item of =
the Security Events WG of the IETF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: SET Token =
Delivery Using HTTP<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authors =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Phil Hunt<br class=3D"">=
 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Marius Scurtescu<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Morteza Ansari<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Anthony Nadalin<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
draft-ietf-secevent-delivery-01.txt<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Pages =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: 26<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Date =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
2017-10-29<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This specification defines how a series of security event =
tokens<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(SETs) may be delivered to a =
previously registered receiver using<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;HTTP =
POST over TLS initiated as a push to the receiver, or as a poll<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;by the receiver. &nbsp;The specification also =
defines how delivery can be<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;assured subject =
to the SET Token Receiver's need for assurance.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF datatracker status page for this =
draft is:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker=
.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyX=
PpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j219eiK5TK2w&a=
mp;s=3DstiBoHXdveUhl4g2mv6jgb5WvjMxDTzwnBjvagiKtgw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpcty=
XPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j219eiK5TK2w&=
amp;s=3DstiBoHXdveUhl4g2mv6jgb5WvjMxDTzwnBjvagiKtgw&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are also htmlized versions available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery-2D01&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D=
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XPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j219eiK5TK2w&=
amp;s=3DGlGb37G2Ge85nOxmT2-vL9ULxZ8ltaShWS2NyauiLRI&amp;e=3D<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery-2D01&amp;d=3DDwIC=
Ag&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j2=
19eiK5TK2w&amp;s=3D_s3zFv4wQ5T_e4zfvsZpf3eRyI4ccwVag6S9JPKetHs&amp;e=3D<br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery-2D01&amp;d=3DDwIC=
Ag&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j2=
19eiK5TK2w&amp;s=3DoS5S8IoCN-72m6y8pIMeH-YAQaPpCA3JmrAX0o4nL08&amp;e=3D<br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may take a =
couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until the =
htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dftp-3A__ftp.ietf.o=
rg_internet-2Ddrafts_&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
vrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j219eiK5TK2w&amp;s=3DDl2FSne8pueaEPSLFtY9IA=
z89LInQyHCB7UqB4M1UNg&amp;e=3D<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&amp;m=3DvrSZYLpxHK7IdZYGXfbjWMydHFFGYP1j219eiK5TK2w&amp;s=3DYb8Lv1YQcQ=
tFEsQbCby-jReZ3c8rtOSbITX_qS7Q75o&amp;e=3D<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:12:42 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-vOcsLEodTctCRz+id1uKsJfmOM3gy_F76oDrOjqgz4kA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/95JaIqdCLTz09JduG71KDtVK9-o>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Phil:

In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may",
which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
SET.

You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.

I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.

An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with
multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick
one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.

Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.

/Dick


On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thin=
k things
>> are fine as-is.
>>
>>                                                                  -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Annabelle,
>>
>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>
>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>
>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payl=
oad
>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows=
 a
>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each h=
ave
>> independent structure.
>>
>> General extensions
>>
>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to an=
y
>> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want=
 to
>> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We ca=
n
>> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
>> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son
>> to rule this out.
>>
>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>> single family like RISC)
>>
>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC event=
s
>> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We di=
d
>> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule o=
ut
>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>
>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>
>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilit=
ies):
>>
>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logou=
t &
>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>
>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effect=
s).
>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM l=
ist
>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  =
IOW
>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not ma=
ke
>> this true for other profiles.
>>
>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re
>> related but express different data.
>>
>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>> Transaction
>>
>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled a=
s
>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99=
m not sure
>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>
>> Previous Discussion
>>
>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. Se=
e:
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>>
>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and t=
he
>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>> event be expressed at a time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in th=
e OIDF
>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, a=
nd replacing it
>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (=
singular):
>>
>>     event
>>
>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>
>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>>     mind:
>>
>>     {
>>
>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>
>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>
>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>
>>        "aud": [
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>        ],
>>
>>        "event": {
>>
>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>
>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
9
>> ",
>>
>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>
>>        }
>>
>>     }
>>
>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>
>>     **
>>
>>     *Extensions*
>>
>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D
>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>
>>     *Aliases*
>>
>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>
>>     *Related Events*
>>
>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>
>>     --
>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Id-event mailing list
>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet
>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>> lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivz
>> jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibE
>> c&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>



--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Phil:<div><br></div><div>In your examples for having a plu=
rality of events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to quest=
ion if a plurality of events is really required in SET.</div><div><br></div=
><div>You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to corre=
late multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed syste=
m will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlatin=
g events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subject seems fairly simpl=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that a receiver will need to correlate =
multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is re=
dundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a=
 single SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. =
I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to s=
upport correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Let me know if there is something I missed in my l=
ogic.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:=
28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effe=
ct, e.g. we could add to the definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br=
>
<br>
Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MA=
Y restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim =
to contain only a single event statement.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron<br>
<br>
On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for=
 all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<br>
<br>
*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<b=
r>
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>
*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<span class=
=3D""><br>
<br>
Annabelle,<br>
<br>
I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br>
<br>
Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br>
<br>
Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inte=
r-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload spa=
ce by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts t=
hat may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to d=
iscover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independen=
t structure.<br>
<br>
General extensions<br>
<br>
The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any s=
pecific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to =
block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can a=
lso anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be requi=
red. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to r=
ule this out.<br>
<br>
Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single =
family like RISC)<br>
<br>
In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events i=
n one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did no=
t discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out mu=
lti-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expres=
sing slightly different things about the same event.<br>
<br>
I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and whic=
h is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br>
<br>
A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities=
):<br>
<br>
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events fro=
m different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br>
<br>
* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state=
 changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Havi=
ng to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D wou=
ld be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this=
 capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multipl=
e events does not make this true for other profiles.<br>
<br>
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/=
session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are re=
lated but express different data.<br>
<br>
Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transactio=
n<br>
<br>
If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) wo=
uld be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as rep=
eats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not =
sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed mul=
ti-node, multi-threading architectures.<br>
<br>
Previous Discussion<br>
<br>
I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary ev=
ent attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br=
>
<br>
* <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg0040=
6.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
<wbr>ive/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr>406.html</a><br>
<br>
* <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg0014=
0.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
<wbr>ive/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr>140.html</a><br>
<br>
The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure=
 this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profil=
es they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be =
expressed at a time.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
<br>
@independentid<br>
<br>
</span><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.independent=
id.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.independentid.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br></=
span><span class=3D"">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
richanna@amazon.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multi=
ple<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional com=
plexity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed thi=
s in the OIDF<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RI=
SC will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, h=
aving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of =
use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
claim (singular):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member who=
se value is a URI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specifica=
tion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this=
 change<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b03=
63fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br>
<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a=
> &lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;&quot;,<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;<wb=
r>,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<br=
>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ie=
tf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e75=
21d9</a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&qu=
ot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;em=
ails&quot;]<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that=
 cannot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br>
<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=
=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage=
 of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for con=
fusion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event a=
t all.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my propose=
d text,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br>
<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clie=
nts<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized event names. In this c=
ase,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical=
 event,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br>
<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- <br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3D=
X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;<wbr>r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH=
0FkITSeGJxPEivz<wbr>jWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnG<wbr>VuAb1mAupEGoJn=
8XG5JIUUwWGFSibE<wbr>c&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI<wbr>0I58ZFd4eEZfg=
yoIY&amp;e=3D</a><span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-e=
vent</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote><span class=3D"">
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-e=
vent</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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I hope this answers your question.

My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why =
not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?

There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, =
some not so good. Some of the reasons...

1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the =
*same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  =
A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other? =
 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =20
2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the =
same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an =
existing event type (a pure extension)=20

I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by =
specific profiles like RISC if they want.

I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. =
For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and =
potentially conflicting.=20

If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to =
establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap =
to eliminate the need to express multiple events.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Phil:
>=20
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word =
"may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really =
required in SET.
>=20
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to =
correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system =
will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- =
correlating events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly =
simple.
>=20
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the =
same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds =
complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>=20
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET =
with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer =
we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support =
correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>=20
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the =
definition of the "events" claim:
>=20
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, =
and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require =
this claim to contain only a single event statement.
>=20
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>=20
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>=20
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for =
all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>=20
>                                                                  -- =
Mike
>=20
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>=20
> Annabelle,
>=20
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>=20
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>=20
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more =
inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event =
payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations =
and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format =
allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which =
can each have independent structure.
>=20
> General extensions
>=20
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to =
any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not =
want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose =
items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional =
data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I =
see no good reason to rule this out.
>=20
> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a =
single family like RISC)
>=20
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC =
events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a =
time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a =
reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET =
level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.
>=20
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and =
which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>=20
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just =
possibilities):
>=20
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping =
events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a =
Backchannel Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>=20
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple =
state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple =
effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM list has not =
discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  IOW - =
Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make =
this true for other profiles.
>=20
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events =
are related but express different data.
>=20
> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same =
Transaction
>=20
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by =
txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or =
handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, =
I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems =
given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>=20
> Previous Discussion
>=20
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate =
primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not =
accepted. See:
>=20
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJ=
wOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>=20
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>=20
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to =
figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and =
the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one =
RISC event be expressed at a time.
>=20
> Phil
>=20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>=20
> @independentid
>=20
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D> =
<http://www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>>
>=20
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>=20
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com> =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>> wrote:
>=20
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional =
complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in =
the OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC =
will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, =
and replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):
>=20
>     event
>=20
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a =
URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>=20
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this =
change
>     mind:
>=20
>     {
>=20
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>=20
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>=20
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/> =
<https://scim.example.com/ <https://scim.example.com/>>",
>=20
>        "aud": [
>=20
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>=20
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>=20
>        ],
>=20
>        "event": {
>=20
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>=20
>          "ref": =
"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>=20
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", =
"emails"]
>=20
>        }
>=20
>     }
>=20
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that =
cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>=20
>     **
>=20
>     *Extensions*
>=20
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for =
confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at =
all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed =
text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>=20
>     *Aliases*
>=20
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical =
event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>=20
>     *Related Events*
>=20
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>=20
>     --=20
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>=20
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>=20
>     _______________________________________________
>     Id-event mailing list
>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>     =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuA=
b1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyo=
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oIY&e=3D>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFs=
j-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02=
EXs&e=3D>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFs=
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EXs&e=3D>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
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> _______________________________________________
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> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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--Apple-Mail=_1061D42B-75BD-4A8F-8F9D-551FE61A7474
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I hope this answers your question.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D =
was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question should =
be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =
singular?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There =
are many reasons for multiple events in a SET. &nbsp;Some are good, some =
not so good. Some of the reasons...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. &nbsp;Multiple event payloads =
expressing statements about largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM =
password reset AND RISC password reset. &nbsp;A RISC Event and an =
OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other? &nbsp;Do they =
overlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">2. =
&nbsp;Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the =
same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel</div><div =
class=3D"">3. &nbsp;A new profile defines new event attributes to be =
added on to an existing event type (a pure extension)&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think it is quite =
valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by specific profiles =
like RISC if they want.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies =
anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON =
structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, =
then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new =
Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple =
events.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Phil:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", =
which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required =
in SET.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You =
posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate =
multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will =
certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating =
events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly =
simple.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same =
subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds =
complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">An implementor may choose to send =
multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver =
will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the =
code paths, and we will need to support correlating across multiple =
SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let me know if there is something I =
missed in my logic.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">/Dick</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron =
Sheffer<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">In that case, =
let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of =
the "events" claim:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiling =
specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY =
restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim =
to contain only a single event statement.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: =
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99=
s rationale here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s fine for =
some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a =
singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all =
events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr class=3D"">org</a>] *On Behalf Of =
*Phil Hunt<br class=3D"">*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br =
class=3D"">*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc:* ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject:* Re: =
[Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Annabelle,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I have =
a number of concerns with this proposal.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads =
Independent<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Indicating that extensions =
should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and =
more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a =
sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to =
complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and =
unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent =
structure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">General extensions<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The proposal also rules out general purpose =
extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of =
items like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data =
or other general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery =
scenarios where additional data might be required. Even though there is =
no current planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. =
Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct =
RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a =
time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a =
reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET =
level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I can forsee some cases where =
it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.&nbsp; =
There may not be a clear winner.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">A couple =
of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">* It is probably useful to be able to express =
simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; =
For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">* SCIM may want to represent a single =
transaction as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a =
password change causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple =
events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has =
not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.&nbsp; =
IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does =
not make this true for other profiles.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* We =
may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The =
events are related but express different data.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the =
Same Transaction<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If events are sent =
separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required =
to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While =
txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it =
can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed =
multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Previous Discussion<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I note that =
I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event =
attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch<wbr =
class=3D"">ive/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr class=3D"">406.html</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-arch<wbr =
class=3D"">ive/web/id-event/current/msg00<wbr class=3D"">140.html</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is =
up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has =
for each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free =
to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">@independentid<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle<br class=3D""></span><span class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allows for =
expressing multiple<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same =
token, which introduces additional complexity<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in =
the OIDF<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC working group and the current =
consensus there is that RISC will<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; require =
that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support =
the handful of use<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events =
per token that people have raised. With<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; that =
context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the =
Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an =
"event_type" member whose value is a URI<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY =
contain additional members<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by =
the Profiling Specification.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": =
"4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr class=3D"">ad8",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458496404,<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></span>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;",<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "aud": [<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>"<wbr class=3D"">,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr =
class=3D"">eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr class=3D"">eate",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr =
class=3D"">s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", =
"name", "userName", "password", "emails"]<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we =
identified three use<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions =
outlined below:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span>&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extension mechanisms can =
be defined internal to the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; object. A =
simple approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D =
member<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or =
set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data structure that =
there is a single primary<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero =
or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at =
all.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I would be fine with adding something =
like this to my proposed text,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; if there is =
consensus that it is broadly useful.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Aliases*<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in =
the context of migrating clients<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft =
event names to standardized event names. In this case,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can transmit two tokens =
for the logical event,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old =
name and another using the new name.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The SET spec defines the txn =
claim as a means of correlating<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; independent =
tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; --<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; ______________________________<wbr =
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2017 17:33:28 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-sMxn5oCP28u3awRQ--V6JrGnn083x4MkB8GEdzviRo8A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> I hope this answers your question.
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>

I strongly disagree. Added complexity should be justified. A singular event
is less complex than a plurality of events. The complexity of plurality in
the SET needs to be offset by simplicity somewhere else.


>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
>

So will it be required that these MUST always be in the same SET? If we
allow them to be different SETs, then an implementor is needing to support
both mechanisms.


> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>

See above.


> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
>

I don't know why this would not be additional attributes in the same event.


>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
>

I'm confused why you would not extend the event object. Adding an
additional event as an extension seems very complex and non-intuitive.
Perhaps I am missing something. Do you have an example to clarify?



>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>

Each event has a URI already does it not? We already need to uniquely
identify event semantics.


>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Phil:
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
> /Dick
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>
>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
>> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>         Yaron
>>
>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thi=
nk things
>>> are fine as-is.
>>>
>>>                                                                  -- Mik=
e
>>>
>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>>> Hunt
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Annabelle,
>>>
>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>
>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>
>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event pay=
load
>>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allow=
s a
>>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each =
have
>>> independent structure.
>>>
>>> General extensions
>>>
>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to
>>> any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not
>>> want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose ite=
ms.
>>> We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data mi=
ght
>>> be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good
>>> reason to rule this out.
>>>
>>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>>> single family like RISC)
>>>
>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC
>>> events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a tim=
e.
>>> We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason t=
o rule out
>>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>
>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>
>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibili=
ties):
>>>
>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logo=
ut &
>>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>>
>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effec=
ts).
>>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be
>>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM =
list
>>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability. =
 IOW
>>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not m=
ake
>>> this true for other profiles.
>>>
>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events =
are
>>> related but express different data.
>>>
>>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>>> Transaction
>>>
>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn=
)
>>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled =
as
>>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=
=99m not sure
>>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>
>>> Previous Discussion
>>>
>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primar=
y
>>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. S=
ee:
>>>
>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
il-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJ=
wOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>
>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
il-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>
>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and =
the
>>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>>> event be expressed at a time.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>> >
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>
>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexit=
y
>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in t=
he OIDF
>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC wil=
l
>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, =
and replacing it
>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):
>>>
>>>     event
>>>
>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a UR=
I
>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional member=
s
>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>
>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this chang=
e
>>>     mind:
>>>
>>>     {
>>>
>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>
>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>
>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>
>>>        "aud": [
>>>
>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>        ],
>>>
>>>        "event": {
>>>
>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>
>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/User
>>> s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>
>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>>
>>>        }
>>>
>>>     }
>>>
>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that canno=
t
>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>
>>>     **
>>>
>>>     *Extensions*
>>>
>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextension=
s=E2=80=9D member
>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceve=
nts=E2=80=9D
>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primar=
y
>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text=
,
>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>
>>>     *Aliases*
>>>
>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event=
,
>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>
>>>     *Related Events*
>>>
>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div>I hope this answers your question.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why =
not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Ceve=
nts=E2=80=9D singular?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I strong=
ly disagree. Added complexity should be justified. A singular event is less=
 complex than a plurality of events. The complexity of plurality in the SET=
 needs to be offset by simplicity somewhere else.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>=
<br></div><div>There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 S=
ome are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...</div><div><br></div>=
<div>1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely t=
he *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=
=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the ot=
her?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0</div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>So will it be required that these MUST always be i=
n the same SET? If we allow them to be different SETs, then an implementor =
is needing to support both mechanisms.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>2.=C2=A0 Multiple=
 events payloads expressing different statements about the same transaction=
 - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel</div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>See above.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>3.=C2=A0 A new profile define=
s new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure ext=
ension)=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t know =
why this would not be additional attributes in the same event.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><br></div><div>I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02=
 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC if they want.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies an=
ything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure)=
 and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I&#39;m confused why you would not extend the event object. Adding an =
additional event as an extension seems very complex and non-intuitive. Perh=
aps I am missing something. Do you have an example to clarify?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above=
, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event=
 profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Each event has a URI already do=
es it not? We already need to uniquely identify event semantics.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><br></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D""><span class=3D"m_-29190456846598830=
68Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;bo=
rder-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</=
div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archite=
ct</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></sp=
an></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oct 29, 2=
017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-291=
9045684659883068Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div><div class=
=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px">Phil:<div><br></div><div>In your examples for having a =
plurality of events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to qu=
estion if a plurality of events is really required in SET.</div><div><br></=
div><div>You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to co=
rrelate multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed sy=
stem will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correla=
ting events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subject seems fairly si=
mple.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that a receiver will need to correla=
te multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is=
 redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or sen=
d a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support bot=
h. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need t=
o support correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanis=
m.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me know if there is something I missed in m=
y logic.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 A=
M, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;</span><span class=3D=
"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-w=
idth:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could a=
dd to the definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling spec=
ifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict the=
ir number. For example, some profiles may require this claim to contain onl=
y a single event statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<s=
pan class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaro=
n<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left=
-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I agree w=
ith much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for som=
e profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton=
.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think =
things are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-2919045=
684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-e=
vent [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Mo=
nday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a=
>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event=
] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<span><br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I h=
ave a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence =
/ Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensions shou=
ld be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and more i=
mportantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema c=
reates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later=
 on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more =
JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>General ext=
ensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not r=
elated to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I wou=
ld not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose =
items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data=
 might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no g=
ood reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different Families=
 (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our RISC se=
ssion we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The=
 discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss othe=
r event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events fro=
m different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly =
different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases where=
 it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.=C2=A0 The=
re may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are necess=
arily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably useful to b=
e able to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in =
one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel=
 event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing=
 multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple=
 effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ct=
xn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery sy=
stem.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not wan=
t to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not want to =
express multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<br><br>=
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/=
session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are re=
lated but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From Similar Ev=
ents Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separa=
tely, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure=
 similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides =
useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in li=
ve or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading =
architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally r=
aised having an attribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate=
 your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_-29=
19045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web=
_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgn=
wGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg004=
06.html</a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dn=
a5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31A=
uxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp=
;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>=
archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.html</a><br><br>The consensus, a=
t least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based =
on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they represen=
t. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a t=
ime.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archite=
ct<br><br>@independentid<br><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp=
;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><span class=3D"m_-29190456846=
59883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRl=
QG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br>=
<br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a><span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<span><br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23,=
 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br></span><span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amaz=
on.com</a><span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The cur=
rent draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this i=
n the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus th=
ere is that RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the=
 only event in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly =
and easily support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple e=
vents per token that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context=
 in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing =
it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=
=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A =
JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose value is a UR=
I<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Spec=
ification.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY conta=
in additional members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specif=
ication.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rew=
ritten with this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span cl=
ass=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b03=
63fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458=
496404,<br><br></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://scim.example.com</a><span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;&quot;,<spa=
n><br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feed=
s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://s=
cim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.examp=
le.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<b=
r><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot=
;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_t=
ype&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https=
://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
9</a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes=
&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;pass=
word&quot;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have =
use cases for SETs that cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed tex=
t? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with soluti=
ons outlined below:<br><br></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Ex=
tensions*<span><br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defi=
ned internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would =
be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the=
 advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that t=
here is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensio=
ns. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is pri=
mary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fi=
ne with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if=
 there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
*Aliases*<span><br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the co=
ntext of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to stand=
ardized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter c=
an transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using th=
e old name and another using the new name.<br><br></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Rel=
ated Events*<span><br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim =
as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate t=
o the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_-29190456=
84659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle =
Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br></span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m=
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s://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br><br></blockquote><sp=
an><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mai=
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t@ietf.org</a><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
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ribe to the<span class=3D"m_-2919045684659883068Apple-converted-space">=C2=
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hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9m=
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t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:=
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________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
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/div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D=
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</div></div>

--94eb2c1404c6c846ef055cb8cafc--


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As requested, the Control Plane API draft that was originally part of =
draft-hunt-secevent-distribution has been broken out as a separate draft =
below.

This draft includes sections from the distribution draft plus extensive =
addition of examples showing different ways profilers, implementers and =
deployers can manage subjects depending on their requirements. The spec =
provides significant discussion on extensibility for profiling drafts =
and the extension of Stream configuration to support new delivery =
methods. The intention is to demonstrate how the proposal supports all =
of the published use cases from SCIM (draft-hunt-secevent-usecases) and =
RISC (draft-scurtescu-secevents-risc-use-cases.

While the draft is somewhat long, the amount of normative language is =
minimal (as this is a profile of SCIM). The bulk of this document is =
taken up in about 35 figures showing simple examples of how to use the =
Control Plane, along with schema and data definitions required for SEC =
EVENT Streams.

This draft is an alternative proposal to =
draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api published for discussion =
at IETF100.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt
> Date: October 29, 2017 at 10:41:43 PM PDT
> To: "Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt
> Revision:	00
> Title:		SET Security Event Stream Management and =
Provisioning
> Document date:	2017-10-29
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		48
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.tx=
t
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines a "control plane" service which enables a
>   client (e.g. an Event Receiver) to establish, monitor, and manage a
>   Security Event Token Stream.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_80702EE9-720F-4878-8A44-E6C8B6B6819A
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">As requested, the Control Plane API draft that was originally =
part of draft-hunt-secevent-distribution has been broken out as a =
separate draft below.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This draft includes sections from the distribution draft plus =
extensive addition of examples showing different ways profilers, =
implementers and deployers can manage subjects depending on their =
requirements. The spec provides significant discussion on extensibility =
for profiling drafts and the extension of Stream configuration to =
support new delivery methods. The intention is to demonstrate how the =
proposal supports all of the published use cases from SCIM =
(draft-hunt-secevent-usecases) and RISC =
(draft-scurtescu-secevents-risc-use-cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">While the draft is somewhat long, the =
amount of normative language is minimal (as this is a profile of SCIM). =
The bulk of this document is taken up in about 35 figures showing simple =
examples of how to use the Control Plane, along with schema and data =
definitions required for SEC EVENT Streams.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This draft is an alternative proposal =
to draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api published for =
discussion at IETF100.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">October 29, 2017 at 10:41:43 PM =
PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Phil Hunt" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@yahoo.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A new version =
of I-D, draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt<br class=3D"">has been =
successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the<br class=3D"">IETF =
repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>SET Security Event Stream Management and Provisioning<br =
class=3D"">Document date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2017-10-29<br =
class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Individual Submission<br class=3D"">Pages:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>48<br =
class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mg=
mt-00.txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-secevent-stream=
-mgmt-00.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/"=
 =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgm=
t/</a><br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00<=
/a><br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-m=
gmt-00" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hunt-secevent-strea=
m-mgmt-00</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;This specification defines a "control plane" =
service which enables a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;client (e.g. an Event =
Receiver) to establish, monitor, and manage a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Security Event Token Stream.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may take a =
couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until the =
htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_80702EE9-720F-4878-8A44-E6C8B6B6819A--


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 05:59:15 +0000
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--94eb2c1404c645490d055cbd578c
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Thanks Phil

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 10:54 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> As requested, the Control Plane API draft that was originally part of
> draft-hunt-secevent-distribution has been broken out as a separate draft
> below.
>
> This draft includes sections from the distribution draft plus extensive
> addition of examples showing different ways profilers, implementers and
> deployers can manage subjects depending on their requirements. The spec
> provides significant discussion on extensibility for profiling drafts and
> the extension of Stream configuration to support new delivery methods. The
> intention is to demonstrate how the proposal supports all of the published
> use cases from SCIM (draft-hunt-secevent-usecases) and RISC
> (draft-scurtescu-secevents-risc-use-cases.
>
> While the draft is somewhat long, the amount of normative language is
> minimal (as this is a profile of SCIM). The bulk of this document is taken
> up in about 35 figures showing simple examples of how to use the Control
> Plane, along with schema and data definitions required for SEC EVENT
> Streams.
>
> This draft is an alternative proposal to
> draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api published for discussion at
> IETF100.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
> *Subject: **New Version Notification for
> draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt*
> *Date: *October 29, 2017 at 10:41:43 PM PDT
> *To: *"Phil Hunt" <phil.hunt@yahoo.com>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Phil Hunt and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt
> Revision: 00
> Title: SET Security Event Stream Management and Provisioning
> Document date: 2017-10-29
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 48
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>   This specification defines a "control plane" service which enables a
>   client (e.g. an Event Receiver) to establish, monitor, and manage a
>   Security Event Token Stream.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
-- 
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--94eb2c1404c645490d055cbd578c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks Phil</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
>On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 10:54 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">As requested, the Control=
 Plane API draft that was originally part of draft-hunt-secevent-distributi=
on has been broken out as a separate draft below.<div><br></div><div>This d=
raft includes sections from the distribution draft plus extensive addition =
of examples showing different ways profilers, implementers and deployers ca=
n manage subjects depending on their requirements. The spec provides signif=
icant discussion on extensibility for profiling drafts and the extension of=
 Stream configuration to support new delivery methods. The intention is to =
demonstrate how the proposal supports all of the published use cases from S=
CIM (draft-hunt-secevent-usecases) and RISC (draft-scurtescu-secevents-risc=
-use-cases.</div><div><br></div><div>While the draft is somewhat long, the =
amount of normative language is minimal (as this is a profile of SCIM). The=
 bulk of this document is taken up in about 35 figures showing simple examp=
les of how to use the Control Plane, along with schema and data definitions=
 required for SEC EVENT Streams.</div><div><br></div><div>This draft is an =
alternative proposal to draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api publ=
ished for discussion at IETF100.</div><div><br></div><div><div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@ind=
ependentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br c=
lass=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"marg=
in-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;col=
or:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-=
system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:internet=
-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br></span>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margi=
n-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,H=
elvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject: </b></span><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
<b>New Version Notification for draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt</b><=
br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvet=
ica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date: </b></span><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-=
serif">October 29, 2017 at 10:41:43 PM PDT<br></span></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;co=
lor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-s=
ystem-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">&quot;Phil Hunt&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@yahoo.com=
</a>&gt;<br></span></div><br><div><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-hunt=
-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by Phil Hun=
t and posted to the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"m_-66458=
83312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span =
class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span>draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt<br>Revision:<span class=3D"m_-66=
45883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>00<=
br>Title:<span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-sp=
an" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>SET Security Event Stream Manage=
ment and Provisioning<br>Document date:<span class=3D"m_-664588331239606175=
9Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>2017-10-29<br>Group=
:<span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Individual Submission<br>Pages:<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
	</span><span class=3D"m_-6645883312396061759Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white=
-space:pre-wrap">	</span>48<br>URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=
draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/internet-drafts/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00.txt</a><br>Status: =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/</a><br>Htmlized=
: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00</a><br>Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<=
br> =C2=A0=C2=A0This specification defines a &quot;control plane&quot; serv=
ice which enables a<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0client (e.g. an Event Receiver) to esta=
blish, monitor, and manage a<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0Security Event Token Stream.<b=
r><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the=
 time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at=
 <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br=
><br>The IETF Secretariat<br><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><=
/div>_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtwar=
e.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1404c645490d055cbd578c--


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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
Thread-Index: AQHTTGwev6cV0D/tE06azbqzz7my9aLyXLkAgAEBjXCAB9BnAIAAT1IAgAAUagCAAQQ9AA==
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 15:57:07 +0000
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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Cc: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Annabelle/Dick,

Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of =
the proposal in JSON.

As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension =
mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). =
Does it follow the old format or the new?

Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management =
system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data =
store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event =
which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement =
from RISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using =
SCIM and OIDC. =20

The 03 spec currently would allow:

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "events": {
     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
       { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
     "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
       { "resetAttempts":5},
     "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
       account-credential-change-required": {
         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
         =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
       }
  }
}

In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without =
preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its =
own context if that matters.

The new proposal:

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event": {
     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRese=
t=E2=80=9D,
     "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
     ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
       "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
         { "resetAttempts":5},
       "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
         account-credential-change-required": {
         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
         =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
       }
     }
   }   =20
}

In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.

*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a =
triple nested structure.

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event": {
     =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-type/\
             account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
        "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
        {=20
          "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
          =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
             "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
               { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
          }     =20
        }
      }    =20
   }
}

In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It =
follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
*OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this =
leads to a triple nested structure.

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event": {
     =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-type/\
             account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
      =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
        =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordR=
eset=E2=80=9D,
        "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
        =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
          =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext=E2=80=9D,
          "resetAttempts":5=20
        }
      }    =20
   }
}

This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and =
is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the =
document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an =
array.

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com
phil.hunt@oracle.com

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> Replies inline.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
> =20
> I hope this answers your question.
> =20
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why =
not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer =
semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions =
unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
> =20
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, =
some not so good. Some of the reasons...
> =20
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the =
*same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  =
A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other? =
 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =20
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same =
SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different =
times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems =
on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over =
different event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as =
a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these =
events separately? What value is gained in combining them?
> =20
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event =
objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single =
token without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of =
the event or sharing all information in the SET with every system =
handling any event in the token.[/richanna]
> =20
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the =
same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>=20
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an =
existing event type (a pure extension)=20
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event =
body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them =
out.[/richanna]
> =20
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by =
specific profiles like RISC if they want.
> =20
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. =
For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and =
potentially conflicting.=20
> [richanna]
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, =
which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two =
events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if =
they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
> A is an extension of B.
> B is an extension of A.
> They are aliases for one another.
> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may =
want to use the same claims in different ways.
> =20
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to =
establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap =
to eliminate the need to express multiple events.
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you =
referring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be =
URIs.[/richanna]
> Phil
> =20
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> =20
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> Phil:
>> =20
>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word =
"may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really =
required in SET.
>> =20
>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to =
correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system =
will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- =
correlating events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly =
simple.
>> =20
>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the =
same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds =
complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>> =20
>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET =
with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer =
we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support =
correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>> =20
>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>> =20
>> /Dick
>> =20
>> =20
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to =
the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>=20
>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, =
and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require =
this claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>         Yaron
>>>=20
>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>=20
>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true =
for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>=20
>>>>                                                                  -- =
Mike
>>>>=20
>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>=20
>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>=20
>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>=20
>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to =
more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event =
payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations =
and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format =
allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which =
can each have independent structure.
>>>>=20
>>>> General extensions
>>>>=20
>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related =
to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would =
not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose =
items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional =
data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I =
see no good reason to rule this out.
>>>>=20
>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from =
a single family like RISC)
>>>>=20
>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC =
events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a =
time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a =
reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET =
level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.
>>>>=20
>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary =
and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>=20
>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just =
possibilities):
>>>>=20
>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping =
events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a =
Backchannel Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>=20
>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing =
multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes =
multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM list has not =
discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  IOW - =
Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make =
this true for other profiles.
>>>>=20
>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events =
are related but express different data.
>>>>=20
>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same =
Transaction
>>>>=20
>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by =
txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or =
handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, =
I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems =
given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>=20
>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>=20
>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate =
primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not =
accepted. See:
>>>>=20
>>>> * =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJ=
wOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>> * =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver =
to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI =
and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only =
one RISC event be expressed at a time.
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>=20
>>>> @independentid
>>>>=20
>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D> =
<http://www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>>
>>>>=20
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>=20
>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com> =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing =
multiple
>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional =
complexity
>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this =
in the OIDF
>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC =
will
>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, =
having
>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of =
use
>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With
>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it
>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
claim (singular):
>>>>=20
>>>>     event
>>>>=20
>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is =
a URI
>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling =
Specification.
>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members
>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>=20
>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this =
change
>>>>     mind:
>>>>=20
>>>>     {
>>>>=20
>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>=20
>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>=20
>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/> =
<https://scim.example.com/ <https://scim.example.com/>>",
>>>>=20
>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>=20
>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>=20
>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>=20
>>>>        ],
>>>>=20
>>>>        "event": {
>>>>=20
>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>=20
>>>>          "ref": =
"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>>>>=20
>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", =
"emails"]
>>>>=20
>>>>        }
>>>>=20
>>>>     }
>>>>=20
>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that =
cannot
>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three =
use
>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>=20
>>>>     **
>>>>=20
>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>=20
>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =
=E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage =
of
>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary
>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for =
confusion
>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at =
all.
>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed =
text,
>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>=20
>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>=20
>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating =
clients
>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this =
case,
>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical =
event,
>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>=20
>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>=20
>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>=20
>>>>     --=20
>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>=20
>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>=20
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>     =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY05=
7SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuA=
b1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyo=
IY&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY0=
57SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVu=
Ab1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgy=
oIY&e=3D>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFs=
j-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02=
EXs&e=3D>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFs=
j-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02=
EXs&e=3D>
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&s=3DLYN72GgKVhHsT6tAqBe-eMoWMvy_7dfFn1uZ0HK6YuQ&e=3D> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj=
-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02E=
Xs&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFs=
j-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02=
EXs&e=3D>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4a=
nNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QS=
z0&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4=
anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46Q=
Sz0&e=3D>


--Apple-Mail=_6C6D0DF4-AC2D-4D27-A222-CE9BFD70AD41
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Annabelle/Dick,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for the comments. I think we =
need to examine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>As I stated, what causes most of the =
issue is the proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using =
events in a recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the =
new?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let=E2=80=99s =
&nbsp;consider a use case where we have an identity management system =
that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store =
for Connect. &nbsp;A Password reset might generate the following event =
which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement =
from RISC. &nbsp;BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver =
using SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">The 03 spec currently would =
allow:</b></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "events": {
     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
       { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
     "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":
       { "resetAttempts":5},</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
size=3D"3" class=3D"">     "<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required": {</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">         =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">         =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font><span style=3D"font-size: medium;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/</a>"</span></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">       }
  }
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued =
without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority =
in its own context if that matters.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">The new proposal:</b></font></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;"><br class=3D""></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {
     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRese=
t=E2=80=9D,
     "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">     =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;">     -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new =
structure? &lt;-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">       "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt"=
 =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":</pre><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">         { =
"resetAttempts":5},</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">=
       "<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;   =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required": {</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">         =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">         =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font><span style=3D"font-size: medium;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/</a>"</span></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">       =
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">    =
 }</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
}</font><span style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">    =
</span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">In the above, sub-events or extensions =
have a different format. The same complaint about the original =
stands.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><b class=3D"">*OR* (if the receiver cares =
about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a triple nested =
structure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size: =
medium;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a></span>=
</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
size=3D"3" style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;    =
   &nbsp;account-credential-change-required</font><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><span style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D"">      =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">      =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">        =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
        {&nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">          "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre><p=
re class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">          =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;">             "<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":</pre><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">               { =
"resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D"">  =
</span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">    =
      }</font><span style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">=
      </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" =
class=3D"">        }</div><span style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">      }     </span><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
}
}</font></pre><div class=3D""><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it =
extends. It follows the old format (or should it follow the =
new?)</font></div></pre><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><b class=3D"">*OR* Following the top layer =
pattern of singular event  Note that this leads to a triple nested =
structure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size: =
medium;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a></span>=
</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;       =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required<font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D"">      =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">      =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
size=3D"3" class=3D"">        =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
size=3D"3" class=3D"">        </font><span style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" =
class=3D"">"id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><=
pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">        =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">          =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D,</=
pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">          =
"resetAttempts":5<span style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D""> =
</span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" =
class=3D"">        }</div><span style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">      }     </span><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
}
}</font></pre><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></pre><span =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">This format follows the =
proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note =
that the parser has to continue to search the document for things that =
aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.</font><br =
class=3D""></span></div><span class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div></pre><span class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services =
Architect<br class=3D"">@independentid<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><br class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com<br=
 class=3D""></div></span>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">Replies inline.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard =
Backman<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Sunday, October 29, =
2017 at 5:25 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use =
cases for multiple events per SET?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I hope this answers your question.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I =
can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the =
justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">[richanna]The singular =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to =
process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases =
that require more complexity.[/richanna]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are many reasons for multiple =
events in a SET. &nbsp;Some are good, some not so good. Some of the =
reasons...<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">1. &nbsp;Multiple event payloads expressing statements about =
largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC =
password reset. &nbsp;A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a =
complement to the other? &nbsp;Do they overlap or are they distinct? =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" =
class=3D"">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">Why is it necessary or =
appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They are likely =
being generated by different systems at different times on the =
transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the =
receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different =
event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a =
receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these =
events separately? What value is gained in combining them?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" =
class=3D"">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the =
event objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a =
single token without either losing the ability to verify the =
authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with =
every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2. &nbsp;Multiple events payloads =
expressing different statements about the same transaction - RISC =
Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br class=3D""><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3. &nbsp;A new profile =
defines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a =
pure extension)&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions =
within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, =
please point them out.[/richanna]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 =
and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC if they =
want.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies =
anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON =
structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">[richanna]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">Ways that multiple-event =
SETs are more complicated:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><ol =
start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224);">It results in a more complex structure for the =
single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use =
case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224);">Multiple-event SETs have =
ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET =
could mean any of:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" =
type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><ol =
start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224);">They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the =
same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common =
txn).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224);">A is an extension of =
B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224);">B is an extension of =
A.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224);">They are aliases for one =
another.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224);">They are not actually =
related to one another in any way.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></ol><ol=
 start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224);">Claim semantics become harder to define, as =
different profiles may want to use the same claims in different =
ways.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we =
have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not =
overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" =
class=3D"">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you =
referring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be =
URIs.[/richanna]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">@independentid<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0Ha=
TX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxu=
eoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct =
29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In your examples for =
having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", which leads me to =
question if a plurality of events is really required in SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">You posit that it will =
be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with =
the same "txn", but the distributed system will certainly need to =
correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same =
"txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think that a receiver =
will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having =
multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear =
benefit that I can see.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">An implementor may =
choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, =
so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and =
minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating across =
multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Let me know if there is =
something I missed in my logic.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/Dick<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron =
Sheffer<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could =
add to the definition of the "events" claim:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event =
statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles =
may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99=
t have to be true for all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine =
as-is.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br =
class=3D"">*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br class=3D"">*To:* =
Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc:* ID Events =
Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject:* Re: =
[Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Annabelle,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I have a number of =
concerns with this proposal.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiling =
Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles =
leads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on =
the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential =
limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The =
current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON =
payloads which can each have independent structure.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">General extensions<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The proposal =
also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any specific =
event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block =
the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can also =
anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be =
required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good =
reason to rule this out.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Multiple Events =
=46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like =
RISC)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In our RISC session we discussed =
expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was =
that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event =
profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from =
different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly =
different things about the same event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and =
which is the extension.&nbsp; There may not be a clear winner.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A couple of examples (these are necessarily =
real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* It is =
probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from =
different SET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchannel =
Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* =
SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple =
state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple =
effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has =
not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.&nbsp; =
IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does =
not make this true for other profiles.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* We =
may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The =
events are related but express different data.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the =
Same Transaction<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If events are sent =
separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required =
to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While =
txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it =
can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed =
multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Previous Discussion<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I note that =
I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event =
attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406=
.html</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140=
.html</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The consensus, at least as I =
interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the =
definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. =
IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a =
time.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">@independentid<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allows for =
expressing multiple<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same =
token, which introduces additional complexity<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in =
the OIDF<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC working group and the current =
consensus there is that RISC will<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; require =
that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support =
the handful of use<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events =
per token that people have raised. With<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; that =
context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the =
Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an =
"event_type" member whose value is a URI<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY =
contain additional members<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by =
the Profiling Specification.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": =
"4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458496404,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "aud": [<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we =
identified three use<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions =
outlined below:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extension mechanisms can be defined =
internal to the event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; object. A simple =
approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D =
member<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or =
set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data structure that =
there is a single primary<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero =
or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at =
all.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; I would be fine with adding something =
like this to my proposed text,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; if there is =
consensus that it is broadly useful.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; *Aliases*<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; This use =
case was brought up in the context of migrating clients<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft event names to standardized event =
names. In this case,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter =
can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; one using the old name and another using the new name.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means =
of correlating<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; independent tokens that =
relate to the same logical event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; --<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
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Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
know who is presenting what where it is xxx

Thanks!

Here are the documents we will be discussing:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/

/Dick

-----
IETF 100 Singapore
Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30

Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 -
13:40
Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 -
14:00
SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 -
14:20
Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 -
14:30
Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 -
14:50
SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 -
15:10
Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 -
15:20
AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 -
15:30

--089e08200a687aa9ce055cca0d7d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabel=
le - please let me know who is presenting what where it is xxx</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Here are the documents we wil=
l be discussing:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/</a>=
<br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secev=
ent-stream-mgmt/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stre=
am-mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div>--=
---</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, =
13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick =
Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</div><div>Security E=
vent Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 14:2=
0=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</div><d=
iv>Management API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 1=
4:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil=
 Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:50 - =
15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management API Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20=
 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Hi Phil

Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event


"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
<http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C>account-credential-=
change-required=E2=80=9D


and an SCIM profile event

"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D


I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
the other does not make sense.

Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as even=
t

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
   "event": {
         "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
         "resetAttempts":5
       }
}

{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event_type": "
http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-chang=
e-required
",
   "event": {
       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
       }
}





On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Annabelle/Dick,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
> the proposal in JSON.
>
> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does
> it follow the old format or the new?
>
> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem
> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for
> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n
> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OID=
C.
>
>
> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "events": {
>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>        account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>   }
> }
>
>
> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own contex=
t if that matters.
>
>
> *The new proposal:*
>
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event": {
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>
>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>          account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.
>
>
> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a=
 triple nested structure.*
>
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>         {
>
>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>           }
>
> }
> }
>
>    }
> }
>
>
> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It
> follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>
> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.*
>
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>
>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>
>           "resetAttempts":5
>
> }
> }
>
>    }
> }
>
>
> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is
> 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the documen=
t
> for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Ce=
vent=E2=80=9D attribute is
> found rather than iterate over an array.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Replies inline.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantic=
s and is easier
> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases
> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the
> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent
> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even =
if
> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What =
value is
> gained in combining them?
>
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n
> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event
> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any even=
t
> in the token.[/richanna]
>
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
> out.[/richanna]
>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
> [richanna]
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>
>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>
>
>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>
>
>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>
>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event
> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9=
CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Phil:
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
> /Dick
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a
> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I think=
 things
> are fine as-is.
>
>                                                                  -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Annabelle,
>
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event paylo=
ad
> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows =
a
> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each ha=
ve
> independent structure.
>
> General extensions
>
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any
> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want =
to
> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can
> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reas=
on
> to rule this out.
>
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a singl=
e
> family like RISC)
>
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events
> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did
> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t
> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibiliti=
es):
>
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &
> a RISC session cancel event.
>
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects=
).
> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM li=
st
> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  I=
OW
> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not mak=
e
> this true for other profiles.
>
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events ar=
e
> related but express different data.
>
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
> Transaction
>
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as
> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure
> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>
> Previous Discussion
>
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See=
:
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwO=
QNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7b=
N161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and th=
e
> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
> event be expressed at a time.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>  <http://www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
> >
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the=
 OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, an=
d replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (s=
ingular):
>
>     event
>
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
>
>     {
>
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>
>        "aud": [
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>        ],
>
>        "event": {
>
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9
> ",
>
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>
>        }
>
>     }
>
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>
>     **
>
>     *Extensions*
>
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>
>     *Aliases*
>
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>
>     *Related Events*
>
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>
>     --
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>
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>
> --
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>


--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>Correct me if I am misunderstan=
ding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0</div><div><pre class=3D"gmail=
-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:10.4=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium"><br></span></pre><pre=
 class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap=
;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-=
size:medium">&quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event=
-type/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<=
wbr>event-type/</a></span><font style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-=
size:12px">account-credential-change-<wbr>required</font><font size=3D"3" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</font></pre><pre class=3D"g=
mail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,sans-serif"><br></font></pre></pre></div><div>and an SCIM prof=
ile event<br></div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-m_40262364560803=
49644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/pass=
wordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>pa=
sswordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349644n=
ewpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px"><br></pre></div><div>I&#39;m suggesting that two different=
 events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be =
at the same level as event</div><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"mono=
space, monospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30&quot;,</font=
></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 145=
8496025,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;=
iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com">https://scim.example.=
com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =
&quot;aud&quot;: [</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc87=
9593b7754">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quo=
t;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7">http=
s://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</font></div>=
<div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</font></div><div><=
font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt">https://exam=
ple.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</fo=
nt></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;,</font></div=
><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, mo=
nospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</font></div><div><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace">}</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br>=
</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">{</font></div><div><f=
ont face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf7975=
84bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, mono=
space">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</font></div><div><font face=3D"m=
onospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.=
example.com">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font fac=
e=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</font></div><div><font=
 face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.=
example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08=
641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/s=
ecevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required">http://schemas.=
openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required</a>&=
quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&q=
uot;event&quot;: {</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=
=9D,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/">=
https://idp.example.com/</a>&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</font></div><=
div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</font>=
</div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">}</font></div></div><div><fo=
nt size=3D"3"><br></font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oc=
t 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
"><div>Annabelle/Dick,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the comments. I =
think we need to examine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.</div><di=
v><br></div>As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed exte=
nsion mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). =
Does it follow the old format or the new?<div><br></div><div>Let=E2=80=99s =
=C2=A0consider a use case where we have an identity management system that =
uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for Connec=
t.=C2=A0 A Password reset might generate the following event which has an e=
xtension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0=
 BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC=
. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b>=
</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5b=
bc879593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d=
08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;events&quot;: {
     &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;:
       { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;},
     &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot=
;:
       { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},</pre><pre class=3D"m_402623645608034=
9644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">  =
   &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/=
\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required=
&quot;: {</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623=
6456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=
=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><span style=3D"font-size=
:medium"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp=
.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623645608034964=
4newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">     =
  }
  }
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m=
_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><fo=
nt face=3D"Helvetica">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; a=
nd issued without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign pr=
iority in its own context if that matters.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026=
236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><div><fo=
nt face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>The=
 new proposal:</b></font></div><div><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newp=
age" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px"><br></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-siz=
e:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5b=
bc879593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d=
08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {
     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:pas=
swordReset=E2=80=9D,
     &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre>=
<pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015=
441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<=
/pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333=
33015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is =
this the old or new structure? &lt;-</pre><pre class=3D"m_40262364560803496=
44newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:0px">       &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRe=
setExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordReset=
Ext</a>&quot;:</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">         { &=
quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpag=
e" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">       &quot=
;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C" target=
=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0   =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot=
;: {</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D=
"3">         =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><span style=3D"font-size:me=
dium"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644ne=
wpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">       }=
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">     }</font></pre><pre class=3D"=
m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><f=
ont size=3D"3">   }</font><span style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">  =
  </span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-=
top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">}</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4=
026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font=
 size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">In the ab=
ove, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same complaint a=
bout the original stands.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644ne=
wpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">=
<br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>*OR* (if the recei=
ver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a triple nested struct=
ure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre cla=
ss=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33333=
3015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5b=
bc879593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d=
08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   =
  =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:medium">&quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-type/\</a></sp=
an></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage=
" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font=
-size:12px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0       =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr=
>required</font><font size=3D"3">=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_402=
6236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:12px;margin-top:0px;margin-bott=
om:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium">      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=
=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644=
newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" style=
=3D"font-size:12px">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><font size=3D"=
3"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://=
idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_40262364560=
80349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3=
">      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623=
6456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
"><font size=3D"3">        &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordRe=
set&quot;:
        {=C2=A0</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" sty=
le=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">    =
      &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre=
><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33333301=
5441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">          =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:1=
3.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">             &quot;<a=
 href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:</pre><pre =
class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33333301544189=
5px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">               { &quot;resetAttempts&=
quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:medium">  </span></pre><pre class=3D"m_40=
26236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font =
size=3D"3">          }</font><span style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px"=
>      </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">   =
     }</div><span style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">      }     </sp=
an><font size=3D"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><div><font size=3D"3"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Hel=
vetica">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. =
It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)</font></div></pre>=
<div><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>*OR* Following the top layer p=
attern of singular event  Note that this leads to a triple nested structure=
.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333330=
15441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5b=
bc879593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d=
08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   =
  =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:medium">&quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-type/\</a></sp=
an></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage=
" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0       =C2=
=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required<font size=3D"3">=E2=80=9D,</font=
></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium">      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=
=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623=
6456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<font size=3D"3"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.co=
m/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,<=
/font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">      =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</f=
ont></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D=
:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</font></pre>=
</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        </font><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df9=
6bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644ne=
wpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px">        =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_40262364560803=
49644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px">          =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://exampl=
e.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">          &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5<span=
 style=3D"font-size:medium"> </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size:13.=
333333015441895px">        }</div><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333330154418=
95px">      }     </span><font size=3D"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><br class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-interchange-newline">=
</pre><span><font face=3D"Helvetica">This format follows the proposed singu=
lar event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has=
 to continue to search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as=
 it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather t=
han iterate over an array.</font><br></span></div><span><br></span></div></=
pre><span class=3D""><span><div>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cl=
oud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"http://www.independe=
ntid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><br></div><=
/span>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oc=
t 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</di=
v><br class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div>=
<div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"m_4026236456080349644WordSection1=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,22=
4)">Replies inline.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times =
New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabell=
e Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Services<u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border=
-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_40262364560803=
49644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span clas=
s=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></=
b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<=
span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>=
Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
I hope this answers your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was=
 because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question should be, what=
 is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The sing=
ular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to p=
rocess. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that =
require more complexity.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">There are many reaso=
ns for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Som=
e of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing=
 statements about largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset=
 AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is o=
ne a complement to the other?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[=
richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropria=
te to include these events in the same SET? They are likely being generated=
 by different systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side,=
 consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly=
 being transmitted over different event streams. I know the latter would be=
 the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome=
 to send these events separately? What value is gained in combining them?<u=
></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,22=
4)">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event obj=
ects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single token wit=
hout either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or s=
haring all information in the SET with every system handling any event in t=
he token.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the=
 same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]<br><br><u>=
</u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines=
 new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure exte=
nsion)=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have sugg=
ested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now.=
 If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]<u></u><u></=
u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limite=
d by specific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am not in agre=
ement that making event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes exte=
nsions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=
=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that multipl=
e-event SETs are more complicated:<u></u><u></u></span></div><ol start=3D"1=
" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_4026=
236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">It results in a=
 more complex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all=
 agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_402623645=
6080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Multiple-event SETs =
have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SE=
T could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" styl=
e=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"=
margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They are related to the same logical =
event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a =
common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListPar=
agraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></l=
i><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,=
224)">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_402623645608=
0349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They are aliases for on=
e another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParag=
raph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They are not actually related to one anoth=
er in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Mso=
ListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Claim semantics become harder to =
define, as different profiles may want to use the same claims in different =
ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believ=
e we have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do no=
t overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=
=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names=
? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archite=
ct<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>@independentid<u></=
u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZ=
kkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independe=
ntid.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote=
 style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"=
>dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality =
of events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if =
a plurality of events is really required in SET.<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will =
be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the s=
ame &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to corr=
elate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;tx=
n&quot; on the same subject seems fairly simple.<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver=
 will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multip=
le events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit =
that I can see.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send=
 a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both=
. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to=
 support correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism=
.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-ser=
if">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.<u></u><u></u></=
span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u>=
<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yar=
on Sheffer<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&=
gt;<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite"><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that =
case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definitio=
n of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD d=
efine the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For exam=
ple, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single event st=
atement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10/17=
 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"bo=
rder-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb=
(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" t=
ype=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here=
.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be t=
rue for all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-even=
t-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br=
>*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabel=
le &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<=
br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br=
><br>Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Ind=
icating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-o=
perability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space =
by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that=
 may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to disc=
over and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent s=
tructure.<br><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out gene=
ral purpose extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emergen=
ce of items like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-da=
ta or other general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery sce=
narios where additional data might be required. Even though there is no cur=
rent planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Ev=
ents From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like=
 RISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct=
 RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a t=
ime. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason =
to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each pro=
file is expressing slightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I=
 can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and which=
 is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple o=
f examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>=
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events fro=
m different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a s=
ingle transaction as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a pas=
sword change causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events=
 and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-thr=
eaded/multi-node delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discuss=
ed this, but I would not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just be=
cause RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make this true=
 for other profiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset=
 was performed and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same t=
ime.=C2=A0 The events are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoidi=
ng Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><=
br>If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)=
 would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as =
repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m n=
ot sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed =
multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><b=
r>I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary =
event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<=
br><br>*<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkR=
lQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00406.html</a><br><b=
r>*<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1i=
w&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.html</a><br><br>The =
consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure thi=
s out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles t=
hey represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expr=
essed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Serv=
ices Architect<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1i=
w&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.c=
om</a><span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www=
.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB=
65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCG=
lK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyX=
wSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br><br><a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><span class=3D"m_402623645=
6080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct=
 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a><span class=3D"m_40262364=
56080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional comple=
xity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discu=
ssed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current c=
onsensus there is that RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events =
must be the only event in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways =
to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for=
 multiple events per token that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 t=
hat context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, and =
replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose =
value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a P=
rofiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty,=
 or MAY contain additional members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Pro=
filing Specification.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from sec=
tion 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>4d3559ec=
67504aaba65d40b0363faa<wbr>d8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a><span class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D=
"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;&quot;,<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7=
754</a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=
=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.=
com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<=
br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot=
;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>create&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f614=
2df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userNa=
me&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in t=
he working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be me=
t by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms =
can be defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple appr=
oach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). Thi=
s has the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structu=
re that there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more=
 extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which eve=
nt is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I wo=
uld be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the cont=
ext of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standar=
dized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can=
 transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the =
old name and another using the new name.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Even=
ts*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of c=
orrelating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logi=
cal event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<=
br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I=
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ckquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
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e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
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e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fa=
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erted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
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/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-seri=
f">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing=
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text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><a href=3D"http=
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yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
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ze:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lette=
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on:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
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0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255)"></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signat=
ure" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/=
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</div>

--f403045d24f667bd0a055cca3d6a--


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To: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>,  Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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resending with fixed width formating for agenda for easier reading. :)

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>
> Thanks!
>
> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-
> event-stream-mgmt-api/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>
> /Dick
>
> -----
> IETF 100 Singapore
> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>
> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 -
> 13:40
> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 -
> 14:00
> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 -
> 14:20
> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 -
> 14:30
> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 -
> 14:50
> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 -
> 15:10
> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 -
> 15:20
> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 -
> 15:30
>
>
>
>


-- 
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
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<div dir=3D"ltr">resending with fixed width formating for agenda for easier=
 reading. :)<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Her=
e is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know w=
ho is presenting what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div=
><div><br></div><div>Here are the documents we will be discussing:</div><di=
v><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sec=
event-delivery/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/dr=
aft-ietf-secevent-<wbr>delivery/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/" target=3D"_blank">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><=
a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-s=
tream-mgmt-api/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/dr=
aft-scurtescu-secevent-<wbr>event-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a hre=
f=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-hunt-secevent-<w=
br>stream-mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div>=
<div>-----</div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">IETF 100 Singapore=
</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Bras Basah Monday Nov=
 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospac=
e"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Agenda Setting=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:=
40</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Security Event Toke=
n (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013:40 =
- 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">S=
ET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"mon=
ospace, monospace">Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</fon=
t></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Management API for SET Eve=
nt Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</font></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"monospace, monospace">SET Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A014:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monos=
pace, monospace">Management API Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10=
 - 15:20</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">AOB=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</font></div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div>

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Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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I started writing something very similar. What Dick says. I totally support
single events at this point, even though at the beginning I was challenging
this approach. We do have to formally define an extension mechanism.

Extension attributes could be simply merged into the target event as in
Dick's example.

Or, I think Annabelle suggested (if I understood correctly) that we could
have a defined "extensions" attribute which is a dictionary with keys being
extension URIs and values being name/value pairs. In this case the first
event would look something like:
{
  "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
  "aud": [
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
    "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
   ],
   "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
   "event": {
         "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
         "extensions": {
           "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
             "resetAttempts":5,
           }
         }
       }
}


Marius

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Phil
>
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>
>
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <http://schemas.open=
id.net/secevent/risc/event-type/%5C>account-credential-change-required=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
> and an SCIM profile event
>
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>
>
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
> the other does not make sense.
>
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
> event
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>    "event": {
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>          "resetAttempts":5
>        }
> }
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
> account-credential-change-required",
>    "event": {
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>        }
> }
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>
>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
>> the proposal in JSON.
>>
>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Doe=
s
>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management =
system
>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store fo=
r
>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has =
an
>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OI=
DC.
>>
>>
>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "events": {
>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>   }
>> }
>>
>>
>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefe=
rence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own conte=
xt if that matters.
>>
>>
>> *The new proposal:*
>>
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRe=
set=E2=80=9D,
>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>
>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>
>>      }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same=
 complaint about the original stands.
>>
>>
>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to =
a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>         {
>>
>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>           }
>>
>> }
>> }
>>
>>    }
>> }
>>
>>
>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It
>> follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>
>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this =
leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwor=
dReset=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/p=
asswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>
>> }
>> }
>>
>>    }
>> }
>>
>>
>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and i=
s
>> 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the docume=
nt
>> for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D attribute is
>> found rather than iterate over an array.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Replies inline.
>>
>> --
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> I hope this answers your question.
>>
>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why no=
t. The question should
>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semanti=
cs and is easier
>> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use case=
s
>> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>
>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, som=
e
>> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>
>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  =
A
>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  =
Do
>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems o=
n the
>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different e=
vent
>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if
>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is
>> gained in combining them?
>>
>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single tok=
en
>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the even=
t
>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any eve=
nt
>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>
>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>
>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
>> out.[/richanna]
>>
>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>
>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. Fo=
r
>> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
>> potentially conflicting.
>> [richanna]
>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>
>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>
>>
>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>
>>
>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>
>>
>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap =
to
>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring =
to event
>> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Phil:
>>
>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>> required in SET.
>>
>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlat=
e
>> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
>> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>
>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
>> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>
>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer =
we
>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>
>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>
>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
>> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>         Yaron
>>
>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>
>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thin=
k things
>> are fine as-is.
>>
>>                                                                  -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Annabelle,
>>
>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>
>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>
>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payl=
oad
>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows=
 a
>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each h=
ave
>> independent structure.
>>
>> General extensions
>>
>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to an=
y
>> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want=
 to
>> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We ca=
n
>> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
>> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son
>> to rule this out.
>>
>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>> single family like RISC)
>>
>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC event=
s
>> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We di=
d
>> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule o=
ut
>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>
>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>
>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilit=
ies):
>>
>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logou=
t &
>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>
>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effect=
s).
>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM l=
ist
>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  =
IOW
>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not ma=
ke
>> this true for other profiles.
>>
>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re
>> related but express different data.
>>
>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>> Transaction
>>
>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled a=
s
>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99=
m not sure
>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>
>> Previous Discussion
>>
>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. Se=
e:
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJw=
OQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7=
bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>
>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and t=
he
>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>> event be expressed at a time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>> >
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in th=
e OIDF
>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, a=
nd replacing it
>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (=
singular):
>>
>>     event
>>
>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>
>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>>     mind:
>>
>>     {
>>
>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>
>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>
>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>
>>        "aud": [
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>        ],
>>
>>        "event": {
>>
>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>
>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
9
>> ",
>>
>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>
>>        }
>>
>>     }
>>
>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>
>>     **
>>
>>     *Extensions*
>>
>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D
>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>
>>     *Aliases*
>>
>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>
>>     *Related Events*
>>
>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>
>>     --
>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Id-event mailing list
>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg
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>> ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFS
>> ibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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Xs&e=3D>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I started writing something very similar. What Dick says. =
I totally support single events at this point, even though at the beginning=
 I was challenging this approach. We do have to formally define an extensio=
n mechanism.<div><br></div><div>Extension attributes could be simply merged=
 into the target event as in Dick&#39;s example.</div><div><br></div><div>O=
r, I think Annabelle suggested (if I understood correctly) that we could ha=
ve a defined &quot;extensions&quot; attribute which is a dictionary with ke=
ys being extension URIs and values being name/value pairs. In this case the=
 first event would look something like:</div><div><span class=3D"gmail-im" =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">{</font=
></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &qu=
ot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</font></div><div><font=
 face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</font></=
div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;=
<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-crem=
ed gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</f=
ont></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: =
[</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;=
<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https:/=
/jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</fon=
t></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-cremed gmail-cremed cremed">https://jhub.=
example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</font></div=
><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</font></div></spa=
n><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim=
/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed gmail-crem=
ed gmail-cremed cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetEx=
t</a>&quot;,</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"mono=
space, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></div=
><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e75=
21d9&quot;,</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"monos=
pace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&quot;: =
{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</font><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&quot;<a href=3D"https://e=
xample.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt">https://example.com/scim/event/pass=
wordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</font></div><span class=3D"gmail=
-im" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span><div><font face=3D"monospace, monosp=
ace"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0}</span></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"mo=
nospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</font></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;fon=
t-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><br></div><span class=3D"=
gmail-im" style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospac=
e">}</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div>=
</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Marius</div></d=
iv>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>Correct me if I am misun=
derstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0</div><div><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white=
-space:pre-wrap;font-size:10.4px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre cla=
ss=3D"m_7388501526849818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:medium"><br></span></pre><pre class=3D"m_738850152684=
9818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:medium">&quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-ty=
pe/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/even=
t-type/</a></span><font style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12p=
x">accou<wbr>nt-credential-change-required</font><font size=3D"3" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501=
526849818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></font></pre></pre></div><div>and=
 an SCIM profile event<br></div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"m_7388501=
526849818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">&quot;<a href=3D"h=
ttps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://e=
xample.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_7388501526849818432gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></pr=
e></div><div>I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would be sent. Em=
bedding one in the other does not make sense.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as even=
t</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D""><div><font face=3D"monospace, m=
onospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</font=
></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 145=
8496025,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;=
iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, =
monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospa=
ce, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wb=
r>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.exa=
mple.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.ex=
ample.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</font></div><=
div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</font></div></span>=
<div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot=
;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=
=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,=
</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;ev=
ent&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospac=
e">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96b=
d6ab61e7521d9&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</font></div><=
span class=3D""><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0}</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">}</font></=
div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"monospace, monospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, mon=
ospace">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<w=
br>30&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monosp=
ace">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font f=
ace=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</font></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhu=
b.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jh=
ub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</font><=
/div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>=
&quot;</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],=
</font></div></span><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&=
quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/=
risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/<wbr>account-credential-=
change-<wbr>required</a>&quot;,</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, m=
onospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</font></div><span class=3D""><d=
iv><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9C=
sub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</font></div><div><font=
 face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</font></div><di=
v><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">}</font></div></span></div><div><font=
 size=3D"3"><br></font></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
/div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Annabelle/Dick,</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the conseque=
nces of the proposal in JSON.</div><div><br></div>As I stated, what causes =
most of the issue is the proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possi=
bly using events in a recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the =
new?<div><br></div><div>Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we ha=
ve an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is als=
o the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might gener=
ate the following event which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND =
overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might be important to =
a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>=
The 03 spec currently would allow:</b></div><div><br></div><div><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:1=
3.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641=
d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;events&quot;: {
     &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:
       { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&quot;},
     &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot=
;:
       { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},</pre><pre class=3D"m_738850152684981=
8432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
"><font size=3D"3">     &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent=
/risc/event-type/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>e=
vent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential=
-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818=
432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"=
><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=
=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034964=
4newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">     =
    =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><span style=3D"font-size:medium"><a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com=
<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D=
"3">       }
  }
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpa=
ge" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font>=
</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">In the abov=
e - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by t=
he transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that=
 matters.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><div><font face=3D"H=
elvetica"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>The new proposa=
l:</b></font></div><div><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364560803=
49644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px"><br></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034=
9644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641=
d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {
     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:pas=
swordReset=E2=80=9D,
     &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,</pre>=
<pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608=
0349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px">     -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &l=
t;-</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">  =
     &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot=
;:</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   =
      { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818=
432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"=
><font size=3D"3">       &quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/seceven=
t/risc/event-type/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>=
event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0   =C2=A0account-credent=
ial-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849=
818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=
=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034=
9644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">  =
       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><span style=3D"font-size:medium">=
<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.=
com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623=
6456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=
=3D"3">       }</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456=
080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"=
3">     }</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   =
}</font><span style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">    </span></pre><pr=
e class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">}</font></pre><pre class=3D"=
m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_738850=
1526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica">In the above, sub-events or extensions =
have a different format. The same complaint about the original stands.</fon=
t></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></fon=
t></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" st=
yle=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>*OR* (=
if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a triple n=
ested structure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262=
36456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font siz=
e=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080=
349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_7=
388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33333=
3015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641=
d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-siz=
e:medium">&quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-ty=
pe/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-<wbr>type/\</a></span></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364=
56080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034=
9644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" st=
yle=3D"font-size:12px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0       =C2=A0account-credential-=
change-req<wbr>uired</font><font size=3D"3">=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre cla=
ss=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size=
:12px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium">  =
    =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pr=
e class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-size:12px">   =
   =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</font><font size=3D"3"><a href=3D"https://i=
dp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=
=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364560=
80349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3=
">      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D"m_738850=
1526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage"=
 style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        &quot;=
urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:
        {=C2=A0</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456=
080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px">          &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-b=
ottom:0px">          =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_738850=
1526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333330154=
41895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">             &quot;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://exa=
mple.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:</pre><pre class=3D"m_7=
388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33333=
3015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">               { &quot;reset=
Attempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:medium">  </span></pre><pre clas=
s=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">          }</font><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.333333015441895px">      </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-=
size:13.333333015441895px">        }</div><span style=3D"font-size:13.33333=
3015441895px">      }     </span><font size=3D"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpag=
e" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><div><font size=3D"3"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Hel=
vetica">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. =
It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)</font></div></pre>=
<div><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=
=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>*OR* Foll=
owing the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this leads to a tr=
iple nested structure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m=
_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><fo=
nt size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236=
456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:1=
3.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,
  &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,
  &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,
  &quot;aud&quot;: [
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754</a>&quot;,
    &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641=
d7676ee7</a>&quot;
   ],
   &quot;event&quot;: {</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-siz=
e:medium">&quot;<a href=3D"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-ty=
pe/%5C" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-<wbr>type/\</a></span></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364=
56080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034=
9644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0       =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<font size=3D"3">=E2=
=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608034964=
4newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:medium">      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</s=
pan></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quo=
t;<font size=3D"3"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"=
_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">      =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</fo=
nt></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" s=
tyle=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        =E2=80=
=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=
=E2=80=9D,</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D=
"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px=
;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        </font><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:13.333333015441895px">&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wb=
r>9=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623645608=
0349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px">        =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_73885=
01526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015=
441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">          =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=
=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</=
a>=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644n=
ewpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px">          &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:medium=
"> </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">       =
 }</div><span style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">      }     </span><=
font size=3D"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644newpag=
e" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><br class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644Apple-=
interchange-newline"></pre><span><font face=3D"Helvetica">This format follo=
ws the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Not=
e that the parser has to continue to search the document for things that ar=
en=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attrib=
ute is found rather than iterate over an array.</font><br></span></div><spa=
n><br></span></div></pre><span><span><div>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, I=
dentity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"http://www=
.independentid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>=
<br></div></span>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"m_738850152684=
9818432h5"><div>On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349=
644Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div><div><div class=3D"m_7388501=
526849818432h5"><div class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644Wor=
dSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
195,70,224)">Replies inline.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#=
39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"=
>Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Se=
rvices<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none n=
one;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in =
0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_7388=
501526849818432m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></s=
pan></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_738850=
1526849818432m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>S=
unday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_73885015268498=
18432m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmai=
l.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, I=
D Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364560803496=
44Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for mult=
iple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I hope this answers your question.<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reas=
on why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D clai=
m has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier =
solutions unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richann=
a]<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=
=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *s=
ame*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 =
A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=C2=
=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earl=
ier email:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195=
,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the=
 same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at differen=
t times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different=
 event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. =
Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately?=
 What value is gained in combining them?<u></u><u></u></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the signa=
ture is over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently rou=
te separate events from a single token without either losing the ability to=
 verify the authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET=
 with every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads =
expressing different statements about the same transaction - RISC Password =
Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[ric=
hanna]Same as above[/richanna]<br><br><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new event attributes to be added =
on to an existing event type (a pure extension)=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions =
within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, plea=
se point them out.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think it is quite valid =
to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC i=
f they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">I am not in agreement that making event singular s=
implifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSO=
N structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:=
<u></u><u></u></span></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364560803496=
44MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">It results in a more complex=
 structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the=
 majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4=
026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Multiple-eve=
nt SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the=
 same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D=
"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" s=
tyle=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_738850152684981843=
2m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They are=
 related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were fro=
m different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_=
7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195=
,70,224)">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_73885015=
26849818432m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)=
">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7388501526849818=
432m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They a=
re aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_73885015268498=
18432m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They=
 are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol=
></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"=
><li class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Claim semantics become harder to define, as diffe=
rent profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u><=
/u></li></ol></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to est=
ablish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eli=
minate the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not su=
re what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are alrea=
dy defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u></u></span></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>@independentid<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKB=
wKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><u></u=
><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top=
:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:=
12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Phil:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the w=
ord &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a plurality of events is=
 really required in SET.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be difficult for a distri=
buted system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, but =
the distributed system will certainly need to correlate events on the same =
subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subje=
ct seems fairly simple.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to correlate mu=
ltiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redu=
ndant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An imple=
mentor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple=
 events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way =
and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating across=
 multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.<u></u><u></u></span></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is=
 something I missed in my logic.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_7=
388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;<spa=
n class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-=
style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,=
204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=
=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans=
-serif">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add =
to the definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifi=
cations SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their =
number. For example, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a=
 single event statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span=
 class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border=
-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;=
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with =
much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some pr=
ofiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=
=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think thin=
gs are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_73885015268=
49818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br=
><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event=
-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, Oct=
ober 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing Li=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>*Subject:*=
 Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br=
><br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Indep=
endence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensi=
ons should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues an=
d more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-=
schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexi=
ty later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one =
or more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>Gen=
eral extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensio=
ns not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPR=
D, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general =
purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additio=
nal data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I =
see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different =
Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our=
 RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one =
SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not disc=
uss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-ev=
ents from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing s=
lightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cas=
es where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.=
=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these =
are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably u=
seful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET pr=
ofiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC sess=
ion cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction =
as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change cause=
s multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node d=
elivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I wou=
ld not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does no=
t want to express multiple events does not make this true for other profile=
s.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and=
 a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The eve=
nts are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From =
Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are s=
ent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required=
 to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn=
 provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be =
used in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-=
threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I or=
iginally raised having an attribute to designate primary event attribute to=
 alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span clas=
s=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DD=
wMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9=
KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</a><b=
r><br>*<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140=
.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&am=
p;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2=
tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBn=
ylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>0=
0140.html</a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to t=
he receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each eve=
nt URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that on=
ly one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corpora=
tion, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&am=
p;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2=
tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkf=
CX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank">www.independentid.com</a><span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">http://<wb=
r>www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a><span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hun=
t@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 201=
7, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a><span class=3D"m_7388501526849818=
432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing mu=
ltiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces addi=
tional complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=
=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and=
 the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require tha=
t RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 id=
entified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With<br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of t=
he<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event =
Token spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition=
 for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 even=
t<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; m=
ember whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event de=
fined in a Profiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwi=
se be empty, or MAY contain additional members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as describe=
d by the Profiling Specification.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example =
SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644a=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://sc=
im.example.com</a><span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644=
apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com=
/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">htt<w=
br>ps://scim.example.com/</a>&gt;&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.examp=
le.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/F=
eeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d086=
41d7676ee7</a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>e=
ate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &=
quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://s=
cim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;=
, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;email=
s&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that=
 cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we iden=
tified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cexten=
sions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or =
set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defin=
ed in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making =
it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event a=
t all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to =
my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly=
 useful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case =
was brought up in the context of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from dr=
aft event names to standardized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br><br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines t=
he txn claim as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens =
that relate to the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=
=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ama=
zon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________=
________<wbr>_________________<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m_4026236456080349644apple=
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erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">Id<wbr>-e=
vent@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7388501526849818432m=
_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://=
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4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targe=
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ITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KA<wbr>NnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG=
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an/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><u></u><u></u></span></p></blockquote><div sty=
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________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br>=
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--001a11402f142b7ee0055cca5826--


From nobody Mon Oct 30 14:33:19 2017
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:32:40 -0700
Cc: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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Dick,

I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are w=
orking on a presentation for the current state of set that I will do.=20

Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event (becaus=
e that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.=20

I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams when f=
irewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this that may be=
 important to control plane discussion.=20

I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. It wil=
l be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=20

Phil

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me kn=
ow who is presenting what where it is xxx
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgm=
t-api/
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>=20
> /Dick
>=20
> -----
> IETF 100 Singapore
> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>=20
> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 - 1=
3:40
> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 - 1=
4:00  =20
> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 - 1=
4:20=20
> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 - 1=
4:30
> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 - 1=
4:50=20
> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 - 1=
5:10   =20
> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 - 1=
5:20
> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 - 1=
5:30
>=20
>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-6A1E0718-1884-4F71-BA5E-80EC262B8D5C
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatu=
re"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I believe Mike won't be able to=
 make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are working on a presentation for th=
e current state of set that I will do.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Not much has happened with del=
ivery other than removing verify event (because that was going in control pl=
ane). I can do that very quickly.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">=
<br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I do have concerns about config on c=
ontrol planes and delivery streams when firewalls are involved. I will inclu=
de a couple of slides on this that may be important to control plane discuss=
ion.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMai=
lSignature">I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabel=
le's. It will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.&nbsp=
;<br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSign=
ature">Phil</div><div><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the draf=
t agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know who is presenti=
ng what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div=
><div>Here are the documents we will be discussing:</div><div><br></div><div=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPp=
uYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=
=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc=
_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2=
Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2D=
secevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DmcaEERiRw=
A93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org=
_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DbqT=
3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/D=
ick</div><div><br></div><div>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Br=
as Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda S=
etting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dick Hardt (chair)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 13:30 - 13=
:40</div><div>Security Event Token (SET)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; xxx&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;13:40 - 14:00&nbsp; &nbsp;</div><div>SET Delivery usi=
ng HTTP&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;xxx&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;14:00 - 14:20&nbsp;</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dick Hardt (chair)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14:20 - 1=
4:30</div><div>Management API for SET Event Streams&nbsp; &nbsp; xxx&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1=
4:30 - 14:50&nbsp;</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioning&nbsp; &nb=
sp;Phil Hunt&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;14=
:50 - 15:10&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>Management API Discussion&nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Dick Hardt (chair)&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Dick Hardt (chair)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 15:20 - 1=
5:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:39:38 -0700
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>,  Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one of
the other authors will do the Delivery.

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Dick,
>
> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I ar=
e
> working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will do.
>
> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>
> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this th=
at
> may be important to control plane discussion.
>
> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. It
> will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>
> Phil
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>
> Thanks!
>
> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrR=
I-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=
=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMS=
AoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-
> event-stream-mgmt-api/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=
=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjW=
vSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>
> /Dick
>
> -----
> IETF 100 Singapore
> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>
> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 -
> 13:40
> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 -
> 14:00
> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 -
> 14:20
> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 -
> 14:30
> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 -
> 14:50
> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 -
> 15:10
> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 -
> 15:20
> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 -
> 15:30
>
>
>
>


--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot you in for the SET slot. L=
et&#39;s see if one of the other authors will do the Delivery.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at =
2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,</div><div id=
=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4830431=
034867474168AppleMailSignature">I believe Mike won&#39;t be able to make th=
e monday meeting. so Mike and I are working on a presentation for the curre=
nt state of set that I will do.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168=
AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSign=
ature">Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event=
 (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.=C2=
=A0</div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I do have concerns about co=
nfig on control planes and delivery streams when firewalls are involved. I =
will include a couple of slides on this that may be important to control pl=
ane discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignatu=
re"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I can do =
my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle&#39;s. It will be=
 similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=C2=A0<span class=3D=
"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOE=
nZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSigna=
ture"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Phil</d=
iv></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 P=
M, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, A=
nnabelle - please let me know who is presenting what where it is xxx</div><=
div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Here are the documents =
we will be discussing:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Diet=
f-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7=
qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cx=
rRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-secevent-<wbr>delivery/</a><br></div><div><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx=
1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi=
_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9=
giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-sc=
urtescu-secevent-<wbr>event-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_=
doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3Db=
qT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-hunt-secevent-<wbr>stream-mgmt/</a>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div>-----</div><di=
v>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:3=
0</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</div><div>Security Event Token (S=
ET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013:40 - 14:0=
0=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</div><d=
iv>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Ha=
rdt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</div><div>Management A=
PI for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</div><=
div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management API Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15=
:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARD=
TWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div>
</div>

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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Inline...

Phil

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Phil
>=20
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=20
>=20
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-cha=
nge-required=E2=80=9D
>=20
> and an SCIM profile event
>=20
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in t=
he other does not make sense.
<ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not=
 mean others are not valid.=20

I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not the=
 same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with different=
 events.=20

As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct eve=
nts in one SET.=20
>=20
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as eve=
nt

<ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>=20
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>    "event": { =20
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>          "resetAttempts":5
>        }
> }
>=20
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/accou=
nt-credential-change-required",
>    "event": {
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"      =20
>        }
> }
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=

>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>=20
>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of t=
he proposal in JSON.
>>=20
>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension mech=
anism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does it fol=
low the old format or the new?
>>=20
>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store f=
or Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.  BO=
TH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =20=

>>=20
>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>=20
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "events": {
>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>        }
>>   }
>> }
>>=20
>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context=
 if that matters.
>>=20
>> The new proposal:
>>=20
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>        }
>>      }
>>    }   =20
>> }
>>=20
>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same c=
omplaint about the original stands.
>>=20
>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a t=
riple nested structure.
>>=20
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>         {=20
>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>           }     =20
>>         }
>>       }    =20
>>    }
>> }
>>=20
>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fol=
lows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this le=
ads to a triple nested structure.
>>=20
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event": {
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>         }
>>       }    =20
>>    }
>> }
>>=20
>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is=
 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document f=
or things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=
=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon=
.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Replies inline.
>>> =20
>>> --=20
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Identity Services
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events M=
ailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>> =20
>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>> =20
>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why no=
t. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D singular?
>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semanti=
cs and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there=
 are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>> =20
>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, som=
e not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>> =20
>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *sam=
e*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A RISC E=
vent and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  Do they ov=
erlap or are they distinct? =20
>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same S=
ET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different times o=
n the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the recei=
ver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different event stre=
ams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=
=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is=
 gained in combining them?
>>> =20
>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event obje=
cts, Receivers independently route separate events from a single token witho=
ut either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or shar=
ing all information in the SET with every system handling any event in the t=
oken.[/richanna]
>>> =20
>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the s=
ame transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>=20
>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an exis=
ting event type (a pure extension)=20
>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event b=
ody, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them out.=
[/richanna]
>>> =20
>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by speci=
fic profiles like RISC if they want.
>>> =20
>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. Fo=
r one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potent=
ially conflicting.=20
>>> [richanna]
>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, wh=
ich I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events=
 A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if th=
ey were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>> A is an extension of B.
>>> B is an extension of A.
>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want t=
o use the same claims in different ways.
>>> =20
>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establ=
ish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to elimina=
te the need to express multiple events.
>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>>> Phil
>>> =20
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>> =20
>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> =20
>>>> Phil:
>>>> =20
>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "ma=
y", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required i=
n SET.
>>>> =20
>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correla=
te multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will certai=
nly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events on th=
e same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>> =20
>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the sam=
e subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds complex=
ity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>> =20
>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET w=
ith multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pi=
ck one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlat=
ing across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>> =20
>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>> =20
>>>> /Dick
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the d=
efinition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, a=
nd MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this cl=
aim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for al=
l events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>                                                                  -- M=
ike
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ph=
il Hunt
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to mor=
e inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payloa=
d space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflic=
ts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a parser t=
o discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independ=
ent structure.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to=
 any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not wan=
t to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We c=
an also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be re=
quired. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to=
 rule this out.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a=
 single family like RISC)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC ev=
ents in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We d=
id not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is exp=
ressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary an=
d which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibi=
lities):
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping even=
ts from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple=
 state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects).=
 Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D=
 would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The S=
CIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capabili=
ty.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does n=
ot make this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a L=
ogout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events are re=
lated but express different data.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same Tr=
ansaction
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by t=
xn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled a=
s repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m n=
ot sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed m=
ulti-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate prim=
ary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. Se=
e:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.htm=
l
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.htm=
l
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to f=
igure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the pr=
ofiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event b=
e expressed at a time.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complex=
ity
>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in=
 the OIDF
>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC w=
ill
>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, havin=
g
>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With=

>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec=
, and replacing it
>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D clai=
m (singular):
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a U=
RI
>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification=
.
>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional memb=
ers
>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this cha=
nge
>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e75=
21d9",
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails=
"]
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that can=
not
>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three us=
e
>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensi=
ons=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ce=
vents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single prim=
ary
>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusi=
on
>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at al=
l.
>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed te=
xt,
>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,=

>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical eve=
nt,
>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y=
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gyoIY&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am worki=
ng on!
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e=3D
>>>=20
>>> =20
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>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anN=
ZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&e=
=3D
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working o=
n!
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&e=3D=


--Apple-Mail-342DCA52-F072-4A8B-A838-90C64B330164
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Inline...<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On=
 Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail=
.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Phil<div><br></div><div>Correct me if I am mis=
understanding, but there is a RISC profile event&nbsp;</div><div><pre class=3D=
"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size=
:10.4px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"gmail-m_402623645608=
0349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium"><br></span></pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-=
size:medium">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3=
A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;=
s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-type/</a></span><fon=
t style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12px">account-credential-c=
hange-<wbr>required</font><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif">=E2=80=9D</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage=
" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bo=
ttom:0px"><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></font=
></pre></pre></div><div>and an SCIM profile event<br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv><pre class=3D"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pr=
e-wrap;font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">"<a href=3D"htt=
ps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://exam=
ple.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D</pre><pre class=3D=
"gmail-m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;font-size=
:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></pre></div><div>I'm sugges=
ting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other doe=
s not make sense.<br></div></div></div></blockquote>&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypoth=
etical example. Just because you disagree on this does not mean others are n=
ot valid.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>I just picked overlapping proposals that h=
ave different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from i=
ssuing a single set with different events.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct event=
s in one SET.&nbsp;<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<br></div><div>Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same=
 level as event</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>&lt;ph&gt;may b=
e. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.&nbsp;<br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monos=
pace, monospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbs=
p; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</font></div><div><font face=3D=
"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com=
">https://scim.example.com</a>",</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, m=
onospace">&nbsp; "aud": [</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospac=
e">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc87=
9593b7754">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</f=
ont></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D=
"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7">https://jhub.exam=
ple.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</font></div><div><font face=3D"=
monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospa=
ce, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://example.com/sc=
im/event/passwordResetExt">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</=
a>",</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;"even=
t": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",</font></div><=
div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"r=
esetAttempts":5</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">}<=
/font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div><=
font face=3D"monospace, monospace">{</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospac=
e, monospace">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</font></div>=
<div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</font></d=
iv><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https:=
//scim.example.com">https://scim.example.com</a>",</font></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; "aud": [</font></div><div><font face=3D"m=
onospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc87=
9593b7754</a>",</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &=
nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7">=
https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</font></div><d=
iv><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</font></div><div><fon=
t face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC=
_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D">http://sche=
mas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required</=
a>",</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp;"even=
t": {</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></di=
v><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/">https://idp.example.co=
m/</a>"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</font></div><div><font face=3D"mono=
space, monospace">}</font></div></div><div><font size=3D"3"><br></font></div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hun=
t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Annabelle/Dick,</div><div><br=
></div><div>Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the conseque=
nces of the proposal in JSON.</div><div><br></div>As I stated, what causes m=
ost of the issue is the proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibl=
y using events in a recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the new=
?<div><br></div><div>Let=E2=80=99s &nbsp;consider a use case where we have a=
n identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the=
 underlying data store for Connect.&nbsp; A Password reset might generate th=
e following event which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlap=
ping statement from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH of which might be important to a simila=
r receiver using SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><b>The 03 sp=
ec currently would allow:</b></div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"m_40262=
36456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px">{
  "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7=
676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "events": {
     "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset":
       { "id":"<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
     "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"=
_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>":
       { "resetAttempts":5},</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage=
" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">     "<a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_se=
cevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-C=
XSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.=
net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;accoun=
t-credential-change-<wbr>required": {</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456=
080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3=
">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></p=
re><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:medium"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>"</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_40262364=
56080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D=
"3">       }
  }
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4=
026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font f=
ace=3D"Helvetica">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued=
 without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in i=
ts own context if that matters.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><div><font face=3D"He=
lvetica"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>The new proposal:=
</b></font></div><div><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></pre><p=
re class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441=
895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7=
676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {
     =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordR=
eset=E2=80=9D,
     "id":=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;ma=
rgin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or n=
ew structure? &lt;-</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D=
"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">       "<a=
 href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">=
https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>":</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">         { "resetAttempts":5},</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><f=
ont size=3D"3">       "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_=
qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;   &nbsp;account-credential-change-<wbr>required": {</font=
></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;m=
argin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7=
375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpa=
ge" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">         =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font><span style=3D"font-size:medium"><a href=3D"https=
://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>"</s=
pan></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">       }</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4=
026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font s=
ize=3D"3">     }</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" sty=
le=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }</font><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">    </span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026=
236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font siz=
e=3D"3">}</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre clas=
s=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px=
"><font face=3D"Helvetica">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a dif=
ferent format. The same complaint about the original stands.</font></pre><pr=
e class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bott=
om:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456=
080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"H=
elvetica"><b>*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.</b></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_402623645=
6080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"=
3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"mar=
gin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7=
676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Ce=
vent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:medium">"<a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZm=
r9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz=
40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/sece=
vent/risc/<wbr>event-type/\</a></span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_40262=
36456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"=
><font size=3D"3" style=3D"font-size:12px">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;       &nbsp;=
account-credential-change-<wbr>required</font><font size=3D"3">=E2=80=9D,</f=
ont></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:12p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:medium">      =E2=
=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><f=
ont size=3D"3" style=3D"font-size:12px">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</font>=
<font size=3D"3"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m=
_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><fon=
t size=3D"3">      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre></pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><p=
re class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordR=
eset":
        {&nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      =
    "id":=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">          =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre c=
lass=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895p=
x;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">             "<a href=3D"https://example=
.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim=
/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>":</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644n=
ewpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px">               { "resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D"font-size:medium"> =
 </span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">          }</font><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.333333015441895px">      </span></pre></pre><div style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.333333015441895px">        }</div><span style=3D"font-size:13.3333330=
15441895px">      }     </span><font size=3D"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><div><font size=3D"3"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Helv=
etica">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It=
 follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)</font></div></pre><di=
v><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin=
-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"Helvetica"><b>*OR* Following the top layer patter=
n of singular event  Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</b><=
/font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_402=
6236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre cla=
ss=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">{
  "jti": "<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30",
  "iat": 1458496025,
  "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>",
  "aud": [
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754</a>",
    "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7=
676ee7</a>"
   ],
   "event": {</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"font=
-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">     =E2=80=9Ce=
vent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:medium">"<a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZm=
r9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz=
40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/sece=
vent/risc/<wbr>event-type/\</a></span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349=
644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_40262=
36456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=
=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;       &nbsp;account-credential-change-<wbr>required<fo=
nt size=3D"3">=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newp=
age" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><span style=3D"font-size:med=
ium">      =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span></p=
re><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px">      =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<font size=3D"3"><a href=3D"https=
://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com=
/=E2=80=9C</a>,</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" styl=
e=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">      =E2=80=9Cevent=
=E2=80=9D:{</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D=
"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        =E2=80=9Cevent_t=
ype=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</font>=
</pre></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px"><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">        </font><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">"id":=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7=
521d9=E2=80=9D,</span></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">      =
  =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage"=
 style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"> =
         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/e=
vent/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event=
/<wbr>passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D,</pre><pre class=3D"m_402623645608034964=
4newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bott=
om:0px">          "resetAttempts":5<span style=3D"font-size:medium"> </span>=
</pre></pre><div style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">        }</div><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px">      }     </span><font size=3D=
"3">
</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_4026236456080349644newpage" style=3D"margin-top=
:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font size=3D"3">   }
}</font></pre><br class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-interchange-newline"><=
/pre><span><font face=3D"Helvetica">This format follows the proposed singula=
r event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to=
 continue to search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it h=
as to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than it=
erate over an array.</font><br></span></div><span><br></span></div></pre><sp=
an class=3D""><span><div>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Serv=
ices Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9s=
YhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.in=
dependentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><br></div></span>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oct=
 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><=
br class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div><div=
><div><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"m_4026236456080349644WordSection1" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replie=
s inline.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">=
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></=
span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Rom=
an',serif">Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u=
>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-=
style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223)=
;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span c=
lass=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">=
phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<=
br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span cl=
ass=3D"m_4026236456080349644Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I hope this an=
swers your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=
=99t see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification=
 to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for e=
asier solutions unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[/ri=
channa]<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=
&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1.&n=
bsp; Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *same*t=
hing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.&nbsp; A RISC=
 Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?&nbsp; Do t=
hey overlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<=
u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why=
 is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same SET? The=
y are likely being generated by different systems at different times on the t=
ransmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=
=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I kn=
ow the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s n=
ot, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained i=
n combining them?<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(195,70,224)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not=
 the event objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a sin=
gle token without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of th=
e event or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any=
 event in the token.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">2.&nbsp; Multiple events payloads expressing different statements abou=
t the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]<br><br>=
<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3.&nbsp; A new profile define=
s new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure exte=
nsion)&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have sugge=
sted a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now. I=
f you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by sp=
ecific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I am not in agreement that m=
aking event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions comple=
x (another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;<br><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]<u></u><u></u></span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event SETs are m=
ore complicated:<u></u><u></u></span></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D=
"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">It results in a more complex structure f=
or the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use=
 case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The=
 presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u>=
</u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-t=
op:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in=
"><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,22=
4)">They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if th=
ey were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li c=
lass=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">A i=
s an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644Mso=
ListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></=
u></li><li class=3D"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,=
70,224)">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_=
4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">They are not a=
ctually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol s=
tart=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224)">Claim sema=
ntics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the sam=
e claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></=
u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 ab=
ove, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new Eve=
nt profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)=
">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to=
 event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]<u=
></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Phil<u></u><u=
></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archi=
tect<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span>@independentid<u></=
u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGie=
c&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com=
</a><u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-=
top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4=
:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-ser=
if">Phil:<u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
>In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", w=
hich leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in SET=
.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Y=
ou posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate mul=
tiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will certainly ne=
ed to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same=
 "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.<u></u><u></u></span></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will ne=
ed to correlate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events=
 in a SET is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can=
 see.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-seri=
f">An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick=
 one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlatin=
g across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helveti=
ca,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there i=
s something I missed in my logic.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nb=
sp;<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font=
-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=
&nbsp;<u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On S=
un, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote st=
yle=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right=
:0in" type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could a=
dd to the definition of the "events" claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications S=
HOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. Fo=
r example, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single eve=
nt statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_=
4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10=
/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"=
border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" t=
ype=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<b=
r><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true f=
or all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<sp=
an class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike=
<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-even=
t-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, Oct=
ober 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [=
Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I h=
ave a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence /=
 Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensions should=
 be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and more impo=
rtantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creat=
es potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. T=
he current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON pa=
yloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>General extensions<=
br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to=
 any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not wan=
t to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We c=
an also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be re=
quired. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to=
 rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multip=
le Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we disc=
ussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion wa=
s that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event profile=
s. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from different fami=
lies at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things a=
bout the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases where it is not clear wh=
ich is the primary and which is the extension.&nbsp; There may not be a clea=
r winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6ju=
st possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably useful to be able to express siml=
ar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For exam=
ple a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM ma=
y want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state changes i=
n an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Having to chase=
 down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challe=
nging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM l=
ist has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.&n=
bsp; IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does n=
ot make this true for other profiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCI=
M Password Reset was performed and a Logout/session cancellation is expresse=
d at the same time.&nbsp; The events are related but express different data.=
<br><br>Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same T=
ransaction<br><br>If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state=
 (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken o=
r handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=
=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given d=
istributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discus=
sion<br><br>I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate=
 primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepte=
d. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DD=
wMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00406.html</a><br><br=
>*<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;=
s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<=
wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.html</a><br><br>The consensus=
, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out base=
d on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they represe=
nt. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a t=
ime.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architec=
t<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aL=
cLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5nam=
g6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><span class=3D=
"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp=
;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuru=
ib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">http://<=
wbr>www.independentid.com</a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</a><span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">p<wbr>hil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Ba=
ckman, Annabelle<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">richanna=
@amazon.com</a><span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com=
</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec a=
llows for expressing multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same token,=
 which introduces additional complexity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambigu=
ous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; RIS=
C working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>=
&nbsp; &nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of u=
se<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events per token that people have rai=
sed. With<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose striking the defi=
nition of the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Secur=
ity Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following d=
efinition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; event<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" memb=
er whose value is a URI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event define=
d in a Profiling Specification.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be=
 empty, or MAY contain additional members<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by t=
he Profiling Specification.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET fro=
m section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br><br>&nbs=
p; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>{<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": "<wbr>4d3559ec67504aaba65d40=
b0363faa<wbr>d8",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458496404,<br><b=
r>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a><span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/=
</a>&gt;",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "aud": [<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461f=
a5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754<=
/a>",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://scim=
.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wb=
r>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br><br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>create",<br><br>&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d9</a>",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attri=
butes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone in t=
he working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; be met=
 by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br><br>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extension mechanisms can be=
 defined internal to the event<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; object. A simple approach wo=
uld be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as defined in the current spec). This has the a=
dvantage of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data structure that ther=
e is a single primary<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero or more extensions. T=
here is no room for confusion<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; over which event is primary, o=
r if there is a primary event at all.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; I would be fine with a=
dding something like this to my proposed text,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; if there is c=
onsensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Aliases*<br><br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft event names to standardized event names. In thi=
s case,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for t=
he logical event,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old name and another using t=
he new name.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The S=
ET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ind=
ependent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; -=
-<span class=3D"m_4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93=
 Identity Services<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ______________________________<wbr>_=
________________<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<spa=
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in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-se=
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an><u></u><u></u></span></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
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iv><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_s=
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From: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:20:57 -0700
Message-ID: <CAOJhRMZiyZ5c=GX0gz4JSjWEtvRA_quMijTBcZSz_3tw7x+3sw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>,  Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>,  Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/UYQw8Mw-TNP2accqsVj9SfDS2U0>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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Thanks for sending out the agenda.

>From our perspective, there are two important issues that are blocking
implementation and I think it would be very helpful to shift the agenda a
bit so we have more time to discuss these. It would be very beneficial to
implementors if we could resolve these issues so we can finish our services
and start to receive operational feedback on the specs.

   - Management API resolution. We have two approaches (Phil's
   <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00>  and
   Marius/Annabelle's
   <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-=
mgmt-api/>).
   The management API is the key to being able to scale our implementation =
and
   start interop with multiple providers. Perhaps Phil and Marius/Annabelle
   can each provide a summary of their drafts and we can have try to reach
   consensus.
   - Single/multiple event per SET
   This is currently being discussed on list and within RISC working group.
   It would be helpful to also nail this down to free up our engineers to
   build this right the first time instead of making a guessing and having =
the
   community later choose differently.

In addition, but less critically, we'd like to propose the following topics
too:

   - "toe" SET attribute
   - authorization header for push delivery
      - receiver configures full authorization header as static/bearer
      header
   - composite subject claim defined in SET
      - present RISC approach as example


On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one of
> the other authors will do the Delivery.
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dick,
>>
>> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I
>> are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will d=
o.
>>
>> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
>> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>>
>> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
>> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this t=
hat
>> may be important to control plane discussion.
>>
>> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. It
>> will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
>> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZN=
A&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxr=
RI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=
=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMS=
AoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev
>> ent-stream-mgmt-api/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=
=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDj=
WvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> -----
>> IETF 100 Singapore
>> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>>
>> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 =
-
>> 13:40
>> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 =
-
>> 14:00
>> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 =
-
>> 14:20
>> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 =
-
>> 14:30
>> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 =
-
>> 14:50
>> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 =
-
>> 15:10
>> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 =
-
>> 15:20
>> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 =
-
>> 15:30
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>


--=20
Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410

--f403045ede84b149b0055cd2984a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for sending out the agenda.<div><br></div><div>From=
 our perspective, there are two important issues that are blocking implemen=
tation and I think it would be very helpful to shift the agenda a bit so we=
 have more time to discuss these. It would be very beneficial to implemento=
rs if we could resolve these issues so we can finish our services and start=
 to receive operational feedback on the specs.=C2=A0</div><div><ul><li>Mana=
gement API resolution. We have two approaches (<a href=3D"https://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00">Phil&#39;s</a>=C2=A0 and <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-str=
eam-mgmt-api/">Marius/Annabelle&#39;s</a>). The management API is the key t=
o being able to scale our implementation and start interop with multiple pr=
oviders. Perhaps Phil and Marius/Annabelle can each provide a summary of th=
eir drafts and we can have try to reach consensus.</li><li>Single/multiple =
event per SET<br>This is currently being discussed on list and within RISC =
working group. It would be helpful to also nail this down to free up our en=
gineers to build this right the first time instead of making a guessing and=
 having the community later choose differently.=C2=A0</li></ul>In addition,=
 but less critically, we&#39;d like to propose the following topics too:<br=
><ul><li>&quot;toe&quot; SET attribute</li><li>authorization header for pus=
h delivery</li><ul><li>receiver configures full authorization header as sta=
tic/bearer header</li></ul><li>composite subject claim defined in SET</li><=
ul><li>present RISC approach as example</li></ul></ul></div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:=
39 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot y=
ou in for the SET slot. Let&#39;s see if one of the other authors will do t=
he Delivery.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,</div><div id=3D"m_-950424561156701947m_48=
30431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-95042456115670=
1947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I believe Mike won&#39;t be ab=
le to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are working on a presentation =
for the current state of set that I will do.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-95042=
4561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"=
m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Not much has =
happened with delivery other than removing verify event (because that was g=
oing in control plane). I can do that very quickly.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m=
_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I do h=
ave concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams when firew=
alls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this that may be im=
portant to control plane discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-9504245611567=
01947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-95042=
4561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I can do my control p=
lane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle&#39;s. It will be similar to =
the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-95042456=
1156701947HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span cla=
ss=3D"m_-950424561156701947HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div id=3D"m_-95=
0424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=
=3D"m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Phil</div=
></font></span><div><div class=3D"m_-950424561156701947h5"><div><br>On Oct =
30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the draft agenda. Mi=
ke, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know who is presenting what whe=
re it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Here=
 are the documents we will be discussing:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DX=
8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-deliver<wbr>y/</a><br=
></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3=
A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh=
2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D" target=
=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-token=
/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-=
2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
Uluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7up=
sprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/d<wbr>oc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev<wbr>ent-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br></d=
iv><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__d=
atatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9E=
YVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-hunt-secevent-s=
tream-<wbr>mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div=
><div>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Monday Nov 13=
, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</div><div>S=
ecurity Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 x=
xx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00=
 - 14:20=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30<=
/div><div>Management API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014=
:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=
4:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management API Discussion=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"">-- <br><div class=3D"m_-9504=
24561156701947gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a hr=
ef=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to l=
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</span></div>
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 09:21:08 -0700
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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For
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt=
-api/
Annabelle and I are proposing a two part presentation: I will present the
current draft and changes since Prague, Annabelle will then present a
concrete example of profiling this management API spec in RISC.

The delta on the delivery spec is relatively small, I am happy to present
that as well.

Marius

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one of
> the other authors will do the Delivery.
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dick,
>>
>> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I
>> are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will d=
o.
>>
>> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
>> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>>
>> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
>> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this t=
hat
>> may be important to control plane discussion.
>>
>> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. It
>> will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
>> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZN=
A&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxr=
RI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=
=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMS=
AoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev
>> ent-stream-mgmt-api/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=
=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDj=
WvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> -----
>> IETF 100 Singapore
>> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>>
>> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 =
-
>> 13:40
>> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40 =
-
>> 14:00
>> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00 =
-
>> 14:20
>> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20 =
-
>> 14:30
>> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30 =
-
>> 14:50
>> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50 =
-
>> 15:10
>> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10 =
-
>> 15:20
>> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 =
-
>> 15:30
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>

--001a11402f14b6ea3e055cda251b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">For=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/</a> Annabelle and I are p=
roposing a two part presentation: I will present the current draft and chan=
ges since Prague, Annabelle will then present a concrete example of profili=
ng this management API spec in RISC.<div><br></div><div>The delta on the de=
livery spec is relatively small, I am happy to present that as well.<br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"gmail_signatur=
e">Marius</div></div>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">He=
y Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot you in for the SET slot. Let&#39;s see if one=
 of the other authors will do the Delivery.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30=
, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_629749=
1061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"=
gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I belie=
ve Mike won&#39;t be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are wor=
king on a presentation for the current state of set that I will do.=C2=A0</=
div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_48304310348674741=
68AppleMailSignature">Not much has happened with delivery other than removi=
ng verify event (because that was going in control plane). I can do that ve=
ry quickly.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_483043103486=
7474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972=
m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I do have concerns about config on=
 control planes and delivery streams when firewalls are involved. I will in=
clude a couple of slides on this that may be important to control plane dis=
cussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_483043103486747=
4168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4=
830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I can do my control plane ID draft pr=
oposal after marius/annabelle&#39;s. It will be similar to the deck we disc=
ussed at the amazon hq f2f.=C2=A0<span class=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972=
HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"gmai=
l-m_6297491061137672972HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div id=3D"gmail-m_6=
297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div i=
d=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Ph=
il</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"gmail-m_6297491061137672972h5"><di=
v><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">dick.hardt@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - pl=
ease let me know who is presenting what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div=
><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>Here are the documents we will be di=
scussing:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-=
2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdN=
UwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZ=
rtyE_Frzc&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-deliver<wbr>y/</a><br></=
div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL=
6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>o=
c/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscur=
tescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=
=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-s=
curtescu-secevent-ev<wbr>ent-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org=
_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP=
kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3D=
bqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-hunt=
-secevent-stream-<wbr>mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><di=
v><br></div><div>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Mo=
nday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</=
div><div>Security Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery u=
sing HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 14:20 - 14:30</div><div>Management API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Pro=
visioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management A=
PI Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Ha=
rdt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"gmail-">-- <br><div class=3D"g=
mail-m_6297491061137672972gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware=
.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed">HARDTWARE</a> mail l=
ist to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div><=
/div>
</span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a11402f14b6ea3e055cda251b--


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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/xxoy-p7PtaEO5k1fIo2bAiHwcPY>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:22:02 -0700
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To: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>,  Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>,  Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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Hi Adam

Thanks for raising these points. I think all of them will be covered in the
agenda, but I will clarify where they will be covered.

The agenda is set up for both management APIs to be presented, and then I
have a slot for the WG to discuss how to proceed.
I expect the issues wrt. the SET document will be addressed in the time
allotted for SET, similarly for the "toe" attribute.
The authorization header I would expect to be covered in the SET Delivery
time slot.

wrt. composite object, that also should be discussed in the SET time slot
-- I think the proposal is that subjects NOT be in SET, and that each
profile defines how subjects are represented.

Phil: would you confirm you will be covering these topics in your slot on
SET?

Marius: same for the authorization header in the Delivery discussion?

/Dick


On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:20 AM, Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com> wrote:

> Thanks for sending out the agenda.
>
> From our perspective, there are two important issues that are blocking
> implementation and I think it would be very helpful to shift the agenda a
> bit so we have more time to discuss these. It would be very beneficial to
> implementors if we could resolve these issues so we can finish our servic=
es
> and start to receive operational feedback on the specs.
>
>    - Management API resolution. We have two approaches (Phil's
>    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00>  and
>    Marius/Annabelle's
>    <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-strea=
m-mgmt-api/>).
>    The management API is the key to being able to scale our implementatio=
n and
>    start interop with multiple providers. Perhaps Phil and Marius/Annabel=
le
>    can each provide a summary of their drafts and we can have try to reac=
h
>    consensus.
>    - Single/multiple event per SET
>    This is currently being discussed on list and within RISC working
>    group. It would be helpful to also nail this down to free up our engin=
eers
>    to build this right the first time instead of making a guessing and ha=
ving
>    the community later choose differently.
>
> In addition, but less critically, we'd like to propose the following
> topics too:
>
>    - "toe" SET attribute
>    - authorization header for push delivery
>       - receiver configures full authorization header as static/bearer
>       header
>    - composite subject claim defined in SET
>       - present RISC approach as example
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one of
>> the other authors will do the Delivery.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dick,
>>>
>>> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I
>>> are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will =
do.
>>>
>>> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
>>> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>>>
>>> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
>>> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this =
that
>>> may be important to control plane discussion.
>>>
>>> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. I=
t
>>> will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
>>> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cx=
rRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnM=
SAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev
>>> ent-stream-mgmt-api/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3DD=
wMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&=
s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJD=
jWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>>
>>> -----
>>> IETF 100 Singapore
>>> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>>>
>>> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30
>>> - 13:40
>>> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40
>>> - 14:00
>>> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00
>>> - 14:20
>>> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20
>>> - 14:30
>>> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30
>>> - 14:50
>>> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50
>>> - 15:10
>>> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10
>>> - 15:20
>>> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20
>>> - 15:30
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
> --
> Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410
> <(650)%20214-2410>
>
>


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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adam<div><br></div><div>Thanks for raising these points=
. I think all of them will be covered in the agenda, but I will clarify whe=
re they will be covered.</div><div><br></div><div>The agenda is set up for =
both management APIs to be presented, and then I have a slot for the WG to =
discuss how to proceed.</div><div>I expect the issues wrt. the SET document=
 will be addressed in the time allotted for SET, similarly for the &quot;to=
e&quot; attribute.</div><div>The authorization header I would expect to be =
covered in the SET Delivery time slot.</div><div><br></div><div>wrt. compos=
ite object, that also should be discussed in the SET time slot -- I think t=
he proposal is that subjects NOT be in SET, and that each profile defines h=
ow subjects are represented.</div><div><br></div><div>Phil: would you confi=
rm you will be covering these topics in your slot on SET?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Marius: same for the authorization header in the Delivery discussio=
n?</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:20 AM=
, Adam Dawes <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adawes@google.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">adawes@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for sending out the agenda.<div><br><=
/div><div>From our perspective, there are two important issues that are blo=
cking implementation and I think it would be very helpful to shift the agen=
da a bit so we have more time to discuss these. It would be very beneficial=
 to implementors if we could resolve these issues so we can finish our serv=
ices and start to receive operational feedback on the specs.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><ul><li>Management API resolution. We have two approaches (<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Phil&#39;s</a>=C2=A0 and <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/" target=3D"_blank">Marius/Ann=
abelle&#39;s</a>). The management API is the key to being able to scale our=
 implementation and start interop with multiple providers. Perhaps Phil and=
 Marius/Annabelle can each provide a summary of their drafts and we can hav=
e try to reach consensus.</li><li>Single/multiple event per SET<br>This is =
currently being discussed on list and within RISC working group. It would b=
e helpful to also nail this down to free up our engineers to build this rig=
ht the first time instead of making a guessing and having the community lat=
er choose differently.=C2=A0</li></ul>In addition, but less critically, we&=
#39;d like to propose the following topics too:<br><ul><li>&quot;toe&quot; =
SET attribute</li><li>authorization header for push delivery</li><ul><li>re=
ceiver configures full authorization header as static/bearer header</li></u=
l><li>composite subject claim defined in SET</li><ul><li>present RISC appro=
ach as example</li></ul></ul></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39=
 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Hey Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot you in for the SET slot. Let&#39;s see if o=
ne of the other authors will do the Delivery.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div><div class=3D"m_5704692444126049560h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div>Dick,</div><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156701947m_48=
30431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_570469244412604=
9560m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I believe=
 Mike won&#39;t be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are worki=
ng on a presentation for the current state of set that I will do.=C2=A0</di=
v><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156701947m_483043103486747416=
8AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561=
156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Not much has happened wit=
h delivery other than removing verify event (because that was going in cont=
rol plane). I can do that very quickly.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_57046924441=
26049560m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156701947m_483043103486747=
4168AppleMailSignature">I do have concerns about config on control planes a=
nd delivery streams when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of=
 slides on this that may be important to control plane discussion.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156701947m_48304310348674741=
68AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-95042456=
1156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I can do my control plan=
e ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle&#39;s. It will be similar to the=
 deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_570469244412=
6049560m_-950424561156701947HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></sp=
an></div><span class=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156701947HOEnZb"><=
font color=3D"#888888"><div id=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-95042456115670194=
7m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5704692444=
126049560m_-950424561156701947m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Phil=
</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"m_5704692444126049560m_-950424561156=
701947h5"><div><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>He=
re is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know =
who is presenting what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Here are the documents we will be discussing:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7=
jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=
=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-sec=
event-deliver<wbr>y/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecev=
ent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSd=
NUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24W=
pxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>o=
c/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscur=
tescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=
=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev<wbr>ent-s=
tream-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2=
Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3d=
KSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6y=
rBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wb=
r>oc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-<wbr>mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div=
>/Dick</div><div><br></div><div>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><di=
v>Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Ag=
enda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1=
3:30 - 13:40</div><div>Security Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>=
SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managmen=
t APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</div><div>Management API for SET Event Streams=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managme=
nt and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Mana=
gement API Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AO=
B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chai=
r)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div></div></div><span>-- <br><div class=3D"m_5704692444126049=
560m_-950424561156701947gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to =
the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail =
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</div>
</span></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_5704692444126049560g=
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order-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2=
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"_blank"><wbr>+1 650-214-2410</a></span></div><br></div></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
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iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
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References: <CAD9ie-u-P2Cs=yetVAiHDLvUPXkzfuVOYpZV41wQAPd_5RjS5w@mail.gmail.com> <67C37F1B-B6F2-4F00-AF39-CF9C526236A0@oracle.com> <CAD9ie-tJZPo0pKPqXndugaWdzy7az9fhZcDJHGapG78jh5FofQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAGdjJp+bdX+MyBwvNB6RTz+hDth2k3SDx4=kYQMPVgATTk-y7g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:23:02 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-ugr0_YBv1D4c5Wo6kZb5uFWGdSUwPcebeFcAjofbm=6w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>,  Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>, Annabelle Richard <richanna@amazon.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/ixoaAriX24BwjnAP4lSrTshwLbo>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] IETF 100 draft agenda
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Thanks Marius. I've updated the agenda to reflect above. Also please note
the authorization header discussion brought up by Adam in my previous email=
.

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
wrote:

> For https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-
> secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/ Annabelle and I are proposing a two part
> presentation: I will present the current draft and changes since Prague,
> Annabelle will then present a concrete example of profiling this manageme=
nt
> API spec in RISC.
>
> The delta on the delivery spec is relatively small, I am happy to present
> that as well.
>
> Marius
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one of
>> the other authors will do the Delivery.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dick,
>>>
>>> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I
>>> are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will =
do.
>>>
>>> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
>>> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>>>
>>> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
>>> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this =
that
>>> may be important to control plane discussion.
>>>
>>> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's. I=
t
>>> will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me
>>> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
vlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cx=
rRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnM=
SAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev
>>> ent-stream-mgmt-api/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3DD=
wMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&=
s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJD=
jWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>>
>>> -----
>>> IETF 100 Singapore
>>> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>>>
>>> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30
>>> - 13:40
>>> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:40
>>> - 14:00
>>> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:00
>>> - 14:20
>>> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:20
>>> - 14:30
>>> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:30
>>> - 14:50
>>> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:50
>>> - 15:10
>>> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:10
>>> - 15:20
>>> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20
>>> - 15:30
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>
>


--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Marius. I&#39;ve updated the agenda to reflect abov=
e. Also please note the authorization header discussion brought up by Adam =
in my previous email.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtesc=
u@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">For=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurt=
escu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.<wbr>org/doc/draft-scurtescu-<wbr>secevent-event-stream-mgmt-<wbr>api=
/</a> Annabelle and I are proposing a two part presentation: I will present=
 the current draft and changes since Prague, Annabelle will then present a =
concrete example of profiling this management API spec in RISC.<div><br></d=
iv><div>The delta on the delivery spec is relatively small, I am happy to p=
resent that as well.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></fo=
nt></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail_si=
gnature">Marius</div></div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_47=
20672196389210526gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot you=
 in for the SET slot. Let&#39;s see if one of the other authors will do the=
 Delivery.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"m_47206721963=
89210526gmail-h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:=
32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@or=
acle.com" class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,<=
/div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_483043103=
4867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gma=
il-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I believe =
Mike won&#39;t be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I are workin=
g on a presentation for the current state of set that I will do.=C2=A0</div=
><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867=
474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m=
_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Not much has h=
appened with delivery other than removing verify event (because that was go=
ing in control plane). I can do that very quickly.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_=
4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMai=
lSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137=
672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">I do have concerns about con=
fig on control planes and delivery streams when firewalls are involved. I w=
ill include a couple of slides on this that may be important to control pla=
ne discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_629749106=
1137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4=
720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMail=
Signature">I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabel=
le&#39;s. It will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972HOEnZb=
"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"m_47206721=
96389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div =
id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168=
AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_62974=
91061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Phil</div></font></s=
pan><div><div class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972h5">=
<div><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick=
.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_472067219638=
9210526cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here is the dra=
ft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know who is presen=
ting what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></=
div><div>Here are the documents we will be discussing:</div><div><br></div>=
<div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__data=
tracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6=
vs&amp;s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m=
_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-deliver<wbr>=
y/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;=
d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5F=
VzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid=
7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-seceve=
nt-token/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2D=
event-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqR=
Nn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-cr=
emed m_4720672196389210526cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev<wbr>ent-stream-mgmt-api/</a><br>=
</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7=
jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-hunt-seceve=
nt-stream-<wbr>mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br><=
/div><div>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Monday No=
v 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</div><di=
v>Security Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery using HT=
TP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A014:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:2=
0 - 14:30</div><div>Management API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A014:30 - 14:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioni=
ng=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A014:50 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management API Disc=
ussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (ch=
air)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-">-=
- <br><div class=3D"m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subs=
cribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" class=3D"m_47206721963892105=
26gmail-cremed m_4720672196389210526cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a>=
 mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div>=
</div></div>
</span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--94eb2c119bb86ef7cc055ce43b6f--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-secevent/

IETF 100 Singapore
Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30

Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:30 -
13:40
Security Event Token (SET)              Phil Hunt                 13:40 -
14:00
SET Delivery using HTTP                 Marius Scurtescu          14:00 -
14:20
Management API for SET Event Streams    Marius Scurtescu          14:20 -
14:30
Management API example                  Annabelle Richard         14:30 -
14:40
SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:40 -
15:00
Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:00 -
15:20
AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:20 -
15:30

--089e0824731cc7eea9055ce43f71
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materi=
als/agenda-100-secevent/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/material=
s/agenda-100-secevent/</a><div><br></div><div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">IETF 100 Singapore</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, mo=
nospace">Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30</font></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace">Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, m=
onospace">Security Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace,=
 monospace">SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Marius Scurtescu=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
14:00 - 14:20=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Ma=
nagement API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Marius Scurtescu=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</font></div><div><font face=3D"monos=
pace, monospace">Management API example=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A014:30 - 14:40</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">SE=
T Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0Phil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:40 - 15:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">Management API Dis=
cussion=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (c=
hair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:00 - 15:20</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:20 - 15:30</f=
ont></div><div><br></div>
</div></div>

--089e0824731cc7eea9055ce43f71--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:37:05 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/8Wrfxhi7V8XovZTKCfM7JVSfgJw>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Mike

As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specification
until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd WG
meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the
participants have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we
are looking for consensus across the WG.

Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is
important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of
profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
and not be included in SecEvent.

Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profile
it, there will be additional feedback.

Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET=
.

As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before
the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the design
of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.

As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues
in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need
to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.

We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we
don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a
number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone
to work with.

I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting,
and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
documents in a timely manner.

/Dick


On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the=
 recent
> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve b=
een at
> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over =
a year and
> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for =
me =E2=80=93 ship
> it!=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus pos=
itions
> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholesa=
le
> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we =
start
> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does =
something
> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rel=
y on it.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Inline...
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
>
>
>
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>
>
>
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2=
Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6=
lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>accou=
nt-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> and an SCIM profile event
>
>
>
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
> the other does not make sense.
>
> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
> not mean others are not valid.
>
>
>
> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
> different events.
>
>
>
> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
> events in one SET.
>
>
>
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
> event
>
>
>
> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>
>    "event": {
>
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>          "resetAttempts":5
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
> account-credential-change-required
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=
=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
> ",
>
>    "event": {
>
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Annabelle/Dick,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
> the proposal in JSON.
>
>
>
> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does
> it follow the old format or the new?
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem
> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for
> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n
> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OID=
C.
>
>
>
>
> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>
>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D=
>
>        account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own contex=
t if that matters.
>
>
>
> *The new proposal:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>
>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>
>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc=
_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>          account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.
>
>
>
> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a=
 triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>         {
>
>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>           }
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fol=
lows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>
> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>
>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>
>           "resetAttempts":5
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is=
 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document=
 for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cev=
ent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8=
u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Replies inline.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
>
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantic=
s and is easier
> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases
> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
>
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
>
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the
> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent
> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even =
if
> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What =
value is
> gained in combining them?
>
>
>
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n
> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event
> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any even=
t
> in the token.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
> out.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
>
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
> [richanna]
>
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>
>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>
>
>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>
>
>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>
>
>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event
> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9=
CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Phil:
>
>
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
>
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
>
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
>
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
>
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a
> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I think=
 things
> are fine as-is.
>
>                                                                  -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Annabelle,
>
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event paylo=
ad
> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows =
a
> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each ha=
ve
> independent structure.
>
> General extensions
>
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any
> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want =
to
> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can
> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reas=
on
> to rule this out.
>
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a singl=
e
> family like RISC)
>
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events
> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did
> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t
> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibiliti=
es):
>
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &
> a RISC session cancel event.
>
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects=
).
> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM li=
st
> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  I=
OW
> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not mak=
e
> this true for other profiles.
>
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events ar=
e
> related but express different data.
>
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
> Transaction
>
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as
> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure
> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>
> Previous Discussion
>
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See=
:
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwO=
QNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7b=
N161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and th=
e
> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
> event be expressed at a time.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>  <http://www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
> >
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the=
 OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, an=
d replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (s=
ingular):
>
>     event
>
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
>
>     {
>
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>
>        "aud": [
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>        ],
>
>        "event": {
>
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9
> ",
>
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>
>        }
>
>     }
>
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>
>     **
>
>     *Extensions*
>
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>
>     *Aliases*
>
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>
>     *Related Events*
>
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>
>     --
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
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>


--=20
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--f403045ebaf0aedfaf055ce46deb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Mike<div><br></div><div>As you well know, many people in a=
 WG don&#39;t look closely at a specification until last call is made. Addi=
tionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not exist=
ed for very long. While some of the participants have been working on this =
for a while, many have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to b=
e profiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications a=
re easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sen=
se. I also think that properties that are specific to a profile should be l=
eft to that profile and not be included in SecEvent.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profi=
le it, there will be additional feedback.</div><div><br></div><div>Specific=
ally, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of issues in SE=
T have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a n=
umber of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there was consen=
sus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern o=
n the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.</div><div><br=
></div><div>As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the rema=
ining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think w=
e will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>We also have a number of other documents that are not =
in last call, and we don&#39;t have a WG adopted draft yet for management. =
So there are still a number of documents to work through before we have all=
 the bits for someone to work with.</div><div><br></div><div>I do think we =
have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting, and I am hopefu=
l we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the documents in a timely m=
anner.</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:=
48 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_6958776980246660703WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s hard for =
me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to once=
 again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this f=
or multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
 that were long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for o=
ver a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=
=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">There=E2=80=99s not su=
fficient justification to try to undo consensus positions that have been de=
bated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes at =
this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s far bette=
r than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning i=
t, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something =
simple and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can
 rely on it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_6958776980246660703__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline...<br>
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a =
RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.op=
enid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l0=
9sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://=
schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"=
font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">accou<wbr>nt-cred=
ential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/sc=
im/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>=
event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would b=
e sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because=
 you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I just picked overlapping proposals that have differ=
ent meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a =
single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I have stated this is very different from asserti=
ng multiple distinct events in one SET.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at=
 the same level as event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle&#39;s=
 proposed format.=C2=A0<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/s=
cim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr=
>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6a=
b61e7521d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dt=
ype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3Dn=
Qy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http=
://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/<wbr>account-credential=
-change-<wbr>required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=
=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://i=
dp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine =
the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the pr=
oposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recur=
sive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we hav=
e an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also=
 the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might genera=
te the following event which has an extension (conveying
 reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which migh=
t be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwor=
dReset&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f61=
42df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/eve=
nt/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/=
passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV=
42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schema=
s.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0 }<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by=
 the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if th=
at matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">The ne=
w proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:p=
arams:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new str=
ucture? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.=
com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim=
/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts=
&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;:=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same complaint a=
bout the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* (=
if the receiver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a tri=
ple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"ht=
tps://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr=
>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;=
:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.=
5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the ol=
d format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account=
-credential-change-<wbr>required<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=
=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_=
type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>passwordRes=
etExt</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAtte=
mpts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">This form=
at follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers d=
eep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document for things=
 that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
</div>
<pre><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
@independentid<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_u=
GCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SH=
Jamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">--=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Identity Services</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt=
">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amaz=
on.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com<=
/span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple event=
s per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I hope this answers your =
question.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D =
was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question should be, w=
hat is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer seman=
tics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless th=
ere are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">There are many reasons fo=
r multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of =
the reasons...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event p=
ayloads expressing statements about largely the *same*thing. For example, S=
CIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenB=
anking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=C2=A0
 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same=
 SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different tim=
es on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed
 by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being tr=
ansmitted over different event streams. I know the latter would be the case=
 for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send =
these events separately? What value is gained in
 combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event ob=
jects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single token wi=
thout either losing the ability to verify
 the authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with e=
very system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">2.=
=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the s=
ame transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile de=
fines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure=
 extension)=C2=A0<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support e=
xtensions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems wit=
h it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I think it is quite valid=
 to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC =
if they want.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">I am not in agreement tha=
t making event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions co=
mplex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br=
>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
It results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which=
 I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A =
and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they =
were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li>=
</ol>
</ol>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to =
use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">If the WG wants to block =
1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ens=
ure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express mult=
iple events.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"color:#c34=
6e0">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referrin=
g to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richan=
na]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">Oracle Corporation, Ident=
ity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">@independentid<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9C=
ZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 =
PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In your examples for ha=
ving a plurality of events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads m=
e to question if a plurality of events is really required
 in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">You posit that it will =
be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the s=
ame &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly
 need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the =
same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">I think that a receiver=
 will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multip=
le events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexity
 with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">An implementor may choo=
se to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a r=
eceiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick
 one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlati=
ng across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Let me know if there is=
 something I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at=
 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m40262364560803=
49644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail=
.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m40262364560803=
49644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In that case, let&#39;s=
 add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the &quot;=
events&quot; claim:<br>
<br>
Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MA=
Y restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim =
to contain only a single event statement.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m40262364560=
80349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br>
<br>
On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">I =
agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for=
 all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br>
<br>
*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</s=
pan></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>
*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<=
br>
*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br>
<br>
Annabelle,<br>
<br>
I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br>
<br>
Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br>
<br>
Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inte=
r-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload spa=
ce by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts t=
hat may add to complexity later
 on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more =
JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br>
<br>
General extensions<br>
<br>
The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any s=
pecific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to =
block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can a=
lso anticipate some delivery scenarios
 where additional data might be required. Even though there is no current p=
lanned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br>
<br>
Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single =
family like RISC)<br>
<br>
In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events i=
n one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did no=
t discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out mu=
lti-events from different families at the
 SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.<br>
<br>
I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and whic=
h is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br>
<br>
A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities=
):<br>
<br>
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events fro=
m different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br>
<br>
* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state=
 changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Havi=
ng to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D wou=
ld be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node
 delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I w=
ould not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does =
not want to express multiple events does not make this true for other profi=
les.<br>
<br>
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/=
session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are re=
lated but express different data.<br>
<br>
Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transactio=
n<br>
<br>
If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) wo=
uld be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as rep=
eats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not =
sure it can be used in live or near-real
 time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<=
br>
<br>
Previous Discussion<br>
<br>
I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary ev=
ent attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br=
>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dn=
a5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31A=
uxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/=
mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00406.html</span></a><br>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dn=
a5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31A=
uxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/=
mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.html</span></a><br>
<br>
The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure=
 this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profil=
es they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be =
expressed at a time.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
<br>
@independentid<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
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f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m40262364560803=
49644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
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n></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_695877698024666=
0703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m=
_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multi=
ple<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional com=
plexity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed thi=
s in the OIDF<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RI=
SC will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, h=
aving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of =
use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
claim (singular):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member who=
se value is a URI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specifica=
tion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this=
 change<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>4d3559ec67504aaba65d=
40b0363faa<wbr>d8&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.exa=
mple.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644=
apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com=
/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example=
.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7</span></a>&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ie=
tf:params:scim:event:<wbr>create&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f614=
2df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&qu=
ot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;em=
ails&quot;]<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that=
 cannot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=
=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage=
 of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for con=
fusion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event a=
t all.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my propose=
d text,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clie=
nts<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized event names. In this c=
ase,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical=
 event,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
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=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m_6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
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</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:51:46 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" events.
I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the
discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.

I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.

I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver
must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlated
events in the same SET.

/Dick

On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mom=
entum.  I
> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.
>
>
>
> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the se=
t
> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to =
a
> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cseco=
ndary=E2=80=9D events, with different
> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, =
adding no
> actual value.
>
>
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>;
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on
> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some
> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not,
> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>
>
>
> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is
> important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety o=
f
> profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
> and not be included in SecEvent.
>
>
>
> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profil=
e
> it, there will be additional feedback.
>
>
>
> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the S=
ET.
>
>
>
> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before
> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the desi=
gn
> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>
>
>
> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we wi=
ll
> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>
>
>
> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and w=
e
> don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a
> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someo=
ne
> to work with.
>
>
>
> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting,
> and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
> documents in a timely manner.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the=
 recent
> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve b=
een at
> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over =
a year and
> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for =
me =E2=80=93 ship
> it!=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus pos=
itions
> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholesa=
le
> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we =
start
> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does =
something
> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rel=
y on it.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Inline...
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
>
>
>
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>
>
>
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2=
Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6=
lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>accou=
nt-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> and an SCIM profile event
>
>
>
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
> the other does not make sense.
>
> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
> not mean others are not valid.
>
>
>
> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
> different events.
>
>
>
> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
> events in one SET.
>
>
>
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
> event
>
>
>
> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>
>    "event": {
>
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>          "resetAttempts":5
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
> account-credential-change-required
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=
=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
> ",
>
>    "event": {
>
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Annabelle/Dick,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
> the proposal in JSON.
>
>
>
> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does
> it follow the old format or the new?
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem
> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for
> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n
> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OID=
C.
>
>
>
>
> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>
>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D=
>
>        account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own contex=
t if that matters.
>
>
>
> *The new proposal:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>
>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>
>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc=
_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>          account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.
>
>
>
> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a=
 triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>         {
>
>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>           }
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fol=
lows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>
> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>
>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>
>           "resetAttempts":5
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is=
 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document=
 for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cev=
ent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8=
u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Replies inline.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
>
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantic=
s and is easier
> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases
> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
>
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
>
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the
> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent
> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even =
if
> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What =
value is
> gained in combining them?
>
>
>
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n
> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event
> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any even=
t
> in the token.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
> out.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
>
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
> [richanna]
>
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>
>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>
>
>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>
>
>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>
>
>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event
> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9=
CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Phil:
>
>
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
>
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
>
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
>
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
>
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a
> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I think=
 things
> are fine as-is.
>
>                                                                  -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Annabelle,
>
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event paylo=
ad
> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows =
a
> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each ha=
ve
> independent structure.
>
> General extensions
>
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any
> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want =
to
> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can
> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reas=
on
> to rule this out.
>
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a singl=
e
> family like RISC)
>
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events
> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did
> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t
> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibiliti=
es):
>
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &
> a RISC session cancel event.
>
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects=
).
> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM li=
st
> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  I=
OW
> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not mak=
e
> this true for other profiles.
>
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events ar=
e
> related but express different data.
>
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
> Transaction
>
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as
> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure
> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>
> Previous Discussion
>
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See=
:
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwO=
QNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7b=
N161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and th=
e
> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
> event be expressed at a time.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>  <http://www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
> >
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the=
 OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, an=
d replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (s=
ingular):
>
>     event
>
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
>
>     {
>
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>
>        "aud": [
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>        ],
>
>        "event": {
>
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9
> ",
>
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>
>        }
>
>     }
>
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>
>     **
>
>     *Extensions*
>
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>
>     *Aliases*
>
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>
>     *Related Events*
>
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>
>     --
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>     _______________________________________________
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--94eb2c119bb836f972055ce4a2cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Please direct me to a proposal that has a &quot;primary&qu=
ot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I agree that is undesirable. I would =
also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we can drive clarity an=
d simplicity.<div><br></div><div>I think the proposal is that there is one =
event per SET.</div><div><br></div><div>I think having more than one event =
per SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated e=
vents in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>/Dick</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I hear you on the fact=
 that different people have joined the effort at different times.=C2=A0 Tha=
t=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.=C2=A0 I get that=
 not everyone was there when previous consensus calls
 were taken.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I should note that I h=
ave specific technical objections to the specific proposed changes being di=
scussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently all events in the set have the same syntax=
.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I understand them, revert
 us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=
=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.=C2=
=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mik=
e<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-5013854861410265301__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look=
 closely at a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are c=
oming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. =
While some of the participants have been
 working on this for a while, many have not, and we are looking for consens=
us across the WG.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be p=
rofiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are =
easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense.=
 I also think that properties that
 are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and not be includ=
ed in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as di=
fferent groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile o=
f SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at=
 how to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have =
been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there wa=
s consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed c=
oncern on the design of SET when Phil
 presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resol=
ve the remaining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do =
not think we will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also have a number of other documents that are no=
t in last call, and we don&#39;t have a WG adopted draft yet for management=
. So there are still a number of documents to work through before we have a=
ll the bits for someone to work with.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do think we have been making good progress since t=
he last IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and fin=
alize all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/Dick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s hard for =
me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to once=
 again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this
 for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that we=
re long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a ye=
ar and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks=
 for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">There=E2=80=99s not su=
fficient justification to try to undo consensus positions that have been de=
bated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes
 at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s far bette=
r than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning i=
t, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something =
simple
 and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rely o=
n it.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-5013854861410265301_m_6958776980246660=
703__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline...<br>
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a =
RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.op=
enid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l0=
9sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://=
schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"=
font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">accou<wbr>nt-cred=
ential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/sc=
im/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>=
event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would b=
e sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because=
 you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I just picked overlapping proposals that have differ=
ent meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a =
single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">As I have stated this=
 is very different from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at=
 the same level as event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I w=
as working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/s=
cim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr=
>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6a=
b61e7521d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dt=
ype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3Dn=
Qy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http=
://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/<wbr>account-credential=
-change-<wbr>required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=
=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://i=
dp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine =
the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the pr=
oposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recur=
sive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we hav=
e an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also=
 the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might
 generate the following event which has an extension (conveying reset count=
) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might be importa=
nt to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwor=
dReset&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f61=
42df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/eve=
nt/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/=
passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV=
42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schema=
s.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by=
 the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if th=
at matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">The ne=
w proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:p=
arams:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new str=
ucture? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.=
com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim=
/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts=
&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;:=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same complaint a=
bout the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* (=
if the receiver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a tri=
ple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"ht=
tps://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr=
>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;:</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;=
:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.=
5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the ol=
d format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account=
-credential-change-<wbr>required<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=
=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_=
type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>passwordRes=
etExt</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAtte=
mpts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">This form=
at follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers d=
eep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document for things=
 that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
@independentid<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_u=
GCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SH=
Jamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">--=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265=
301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645=
6080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 =
at 5:25 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560=
80349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560=
80349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amaz=
on.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com<=
/span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span=
></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cas=
es for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I hope this answers your question.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. =
The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for=
 easier solutions unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[=
/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, s=
ome not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *s=
ame*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 =
A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=C2=
=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include=
 these events in the same SET? They are likely being generated by different=
 systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by =
different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side,
 and possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I know the la=
tter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is =
it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained in comb=
ining them?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Additionally, since the signature is over the=
 SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently route separate even=
ts from a single token without either losing the ability to verify the auth=
enticity of the event or sharing all
 information in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.[=
/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the=
 same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an ex=
isting event type (a pure extension)=C2=A0<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support e=
xtensions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems wit=
h it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by spe=
cific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For o=
ne is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentia=
lly conflicting.=C2=A0<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more compli=
cated:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
It results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which=
 I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A =
and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they =
were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li>=
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to =
use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish=
 an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate=
 the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean =
by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are already defined by the=
 spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0Ha=
TX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxue=
oPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word &quot=
;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really r=
equired in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate=
 multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed system wi=
ll certainly need to correlate events on the same subject
 -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subject seem=
s fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same =
subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexi=
ty with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k one way and minimize the code paths, and we
 will need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the b=
est mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_-50138548=
61410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<spa=
n class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the=
 definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br>
<br>
Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MA=
Y restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim =
to contain only a single event statement.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br>
<br>
On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for=
 all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660=
703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br>
<br>
*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</s=
pan></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>
*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<=
br>
*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br>
<br>
Annabelle,<br>
<br>
I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br>
<br>
Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br>
<br>
Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inte=
r-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload spa=
ce by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts t=
hat may add to complexity later
 on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more =
JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br>
<br>
General extensions<br>
<br>
The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any s=
pecific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to =
block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can a=
lso anticipate some delivery scenarios
 where additional data might be required. Even though there is no current p=
lanned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br>
<br>
Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single =
family like RISC)<br>
<br>
In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events i=
n one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did no=
t discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out mu=
lti-events from different families at the
 SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.<br>
<br>
I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and whic=
h is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br>
<br>
A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities=
):<br>
<br>
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events fro=
m different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br>
<br>
* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state=
 changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Havi=
ng to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D wou=
ld be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node
 delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I w=
ould not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does =
not want to express multiple events does not make this true for other profi=
les.<br>
<br>
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/=
session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are re=
lated but express different data.<br>
<br>
Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transactio=
n<br>
<br>
If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) wo=
uld be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as rep=
eats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not =
sure it can be used in live or near-real
 time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<=
br>
<br>
Previous Discussion<br>
<br>
I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary ev=
ent attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br=
>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_cu=
rrent_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBC=
GlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr=
7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00406.h=
tml</span></a><br>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_cu=
rrent_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBC=
GlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4y=
E6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.h=
tml</span></a><br>
<br>
The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure=
 this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profil=
es they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be =
expressed at a time.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
<br>
@independentid<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0=
f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246=
660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp=
;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2t=
Dkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfC=
X8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://<wbr>www=
.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m=
_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span>=
</a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multi=
ple<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional com=
plexity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed thi=
s in the OIDF<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RI=
SC will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, h=
aving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of =
use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
claim (singular):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member who=
se value is a URI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specifica=
tion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this=
 change<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>4d3559ec67504aaba65d=
40b0363faa<wbr>d8&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.exa=
mple.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m695877698024666070=
3m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt<=
wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7</span></a>&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ie=
tf:params:scim:event:<wbr>create&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f614=
2df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&qu=
ot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;em=
ails&quot;]<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that=
 cannot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=
=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage=
 of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for con=
fusion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event a=
t all.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my propose=
d text,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clie=
nts<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized event names. In this c=
ase,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical=
 event,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4=
026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span class=3D"m_-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
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ilto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<w=
br>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
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</span></a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:23 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Marius. I've updated the agenda to reflect above. Also please note
> the authorization header discussion brought up by Adam in my previous ema=
il.
>

Yes, I will cover the authorization header.


>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> For https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-seceven
>> t-event-stream-mgmt-api/ Annabelle and I are proposing a two part
>> presentation: I will present the current draft and changes since Prague,
>> Annabelle will then present a concrete example of profiling this managem=
ent
>> API spec in RISC.
>>
>> The delta on the delivery spec is relatively small, I am happy to presen=
t
>> that as well.
>>
>> Marius
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>> Hey Phil, Thanks! I'll slot you in for the SET slot. Let's see if one o=
f
>>> the other authors will do the Delivery.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dick,
>>>>
>>>> I believe Mike won't be able to make the monday meeting. so Mike and I
>>>> are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I will=
 do.
>>>>
>>>> Not much has happened with delivery other than removing verify event
>>>> (because that was going in control plane). I can do that very quickly.
>>>>
>>>> I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams
>>>> when firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this=
 that
>>>> may be important to control plane discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabelle's.
>>>> It will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let m=
e
>>>> know who is presenting what where it is xxx
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Here are the documents we will be discussing:
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-delivery/
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ie=
tf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11c=
xrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&e=3D>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ie=
tf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMn=
MSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&e=3D>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev
>>>> ent-stream-mgmt-api/
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ie=
tf.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&d=3D=
DwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs=
&s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&e=3D>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt/
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ie=
tf.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aL=
cLN4KZNA&m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJ=
DjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6LH5Qr09cA&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>> /Dick
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> IETF 100 Singapore
>>>> Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 2017, 13:30 - 15:30
>>>>
>>>> Agenda Setting                          Dick Hardt (chair)        13:3=
0
>>>> - 13:40
>>>> Security Event Token (SET)              xxx                       13:4=
0
>>>> - 14:00
>>>> SET Delivery using HTTP                 xxx                       14:0=
0
>>>> - 14:20
>>>> Chair Slides on Managment APIs          Dick Hardt (chair)        14:2=
0
>>>> - 14:30
>>>> Management API for SET Event Streams    xxx                       14:3=
0
>>>> - 14:50
>>>> SET Stream Managment and Provisioning   Phil Hunt                 14:5=
0
>>>> - 15:10
>>>> Management API Discussion               Dick Hardt (chair)        15:1=
0
>>>> - 15:20
>>>> AOB                                     Dick Hardt (chair)        15:2=
0
>>>> - 15:30
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>

--94eb2c111b069a1510055ce5a4c4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:23 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Thanks Marius. I&#39;ve updated the agenda to reflect above. Also ple=
ase note the authorization header discussion brought up by Adam in my previ=
ous email.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I will cover the auth=
orization header.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Marius Scurtescu <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">For=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api/" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">https://datatracker.ietf.o<wbr>rg/doc/draft-scurtes=
cu-seceven<wbr>t-event-stream-mgmt-api/</a> Annabelle and I are proposing a=
 two part presentation: I will present the current draft and changes since =
Prague, Annabelle will then present a concrete example of profiling this ma=
nagement API spec in RISC.<div><br></div><div>The delta on the delivery spe=
c is relatively small, I am happy to present that as well.<span class=3D"m_=
-4086364350091846672HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><span class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672HOEnZb"><font co=
lor=3D"#888888"><br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672=
m_4720672196389210526gmail_signature">Marius</div></div></font></span><div>=
<div class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672h5">
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Dick Hardt =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-4=
086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_-4086364350091846672m=
_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Phil, Thanks! I&#39;ll slot you in for the SET slot. Le=
t&#39;s see if one of the other authors will do the Delivery.</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389=
210526gmail-h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 2:32=
 PM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_=
-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Dick,</div><div id=3D"m_-4086364=
350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867=
474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720=
672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSig=
nature">I believe Mike won&#39;t be able to make the monday meeting. so Mik=
e and I are working on a presentation for the current state of set that I w=
ill do.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gm=
ail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div=
><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_629749106113=
7672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Not much has happened with =
delivery other than removing verify event (because that was going in contro=
l plane). I can do that very quickly.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-408636435009=
1846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_483043103486747416=
8AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_472067219=
6389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignatur=
e">I do have concerns about config on control planes and delivery streams w=
hen firewalls are involved. I will include a couple of slides on this that =
may be important to control plane discussion.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"m_-4086=
364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034=
867474168AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4=
720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMail=
Signature">I can do my control plane ID draft proposal after marius/annabel=
le&#39;s. It will be similar to the deck we discussed at the amazon hq f2f.=
=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_629=
7491061137672972HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><sp=
an class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-m_629749106113=
7672972HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4=
720672196389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMail=
Signature"><br></div><div id=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526=
gmail-m_6297491061137672972m_4830431034867474168AppleMailSignature">Phil</d=
iv></font></span><div><div class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_472067219638921=
0526gmail-m_6297491061137672972h5"><div><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Di=
ck Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-4086364350=
091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_-4086364350091846672m_47206721=
96389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here=
 is the draft agenda. Mike, Phil, Marius, Annabelle - please let me know wh=
o is presenting what where it is xxx</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Here are the documents we will be discussing:</div><div=
><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhtt=
ps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Ddelivery_&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7=
jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DX8effseMjaVrorik11cxrRI-bs3SnJC8dZrtyE_Frzc&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_-40=
86364350091846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-deliver<wbr>y/</a><br=
></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3=
A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dsecevent-2Dtoken_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ=
&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh=
2QL6vs&amp;s=3DBhsx1KCP0LaIZS2Ds3UTMnMSAoCVbo24WpxlSgTwW3M&amp;e=3D" class=
=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_-408636435009=
1846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-ietf-secevent-token/</a><br></div><div><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.iet=
f.org_doc_draft-2Dscurtescu-2Dsecevent-2Devent-2Dstream-2Dmgmt-2Dapi_&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdNUwdiLtSP9giOhZid7=
jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DmcaEERiRwA93hAlqRNn-7upsprLemACARBfCG88a_KY&amp;e=
=3D" class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-cremed m_-40=
86364350091846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-scurtescu-secevent-ev<wbr>ent-strea=
m-mgmt-api/</a><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dhunt-2Dsecevent-2Dstr=
eam-2Dmgmt_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DUluwi3dKSdN=
UwdiLtSP9giOhZid7jXJ9EYVbh2QL6vs&amp;s=3DbqT3s9Srdn6iMJDjWvSk_nZL7qud6yrBD6=
LH5Qr09cA&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gma=
il-cremed m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d<wbr>oc/draft-hunt-secevent-strea=
m-<wbr>mgmt/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div><div><br></div><di=
v>-----</div><div>IETF 100 Singapore</div><div>Bras Basah Monday Nov 13, 20=
17, 13:30 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div>Agenda Setting=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 D=
ick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13:30 - 13:40</div><div>Securi=
ty Event Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A013:40 - 14:00=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><div>SET Delivery using HTTP=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:00 - 1=
4:20=C2=A0</div><div>Chair Slides on Managment APIs=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 14:20 - 14:30</div=
><div>Management API for SET Event Streams=C2=A0 =C2=A0 xxx=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:30 =
- 14:50=C2=A0</div><div>SET Stream Managment and Provisioning=C2=A0 =C2=A0P=
hil Hunt=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A014:50=
 - 15:10=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Management API Discussion=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 15:10 - 15:20</div><div>AOB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick Hardt (chair)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 15:20 - 15:30</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"al=
l"><div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_472067=
2196389210526gmail-">-- <br><div class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_472067219=
6389210526gmail-m_6297491061137672972gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://=
hardtware.com/" class=3D"m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526gmail-c=
remed m_-4086364350091846672m_4720672196389210526cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"m_-4086364350091846672gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatur=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe t=
o the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">=
HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div=
></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c111b069a1510055ce5a4c4--


From nobody Tue Oct 31 23:05:34 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/FCyWP6-kRTbkmupkjkYStjGnegw>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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