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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 09:39:01 -0700
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To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>,  "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Your comments highlight a couple of points:

1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensions
of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think
this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as
with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does
not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions.
There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the
profile that created the event format to start off with.

2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not sure
why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event is
well defined with

"event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",

3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in one
set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a
reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in
many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of
multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler
to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as
an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.












On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary
> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, whic=
h
> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>
>
>
> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing
> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>
>
>
> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>
>    "event": {
>
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>          "extensions": {
>
>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
>
>              "resetAttempts":5,
>
>            }
>
>          }
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It
> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the
> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
> signatures.
>
>
>
> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but
> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] * On Behalf Of *Dick
> Hardt
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in
> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>
>
>
> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>
>
>
> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver
> must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlat=
ed
> events in the same SET.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mom=
entum.  I
> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.
>
>
>
> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the se=
t
> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to =
a
> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cseco=
ndary=E2=80=9D events, with different
> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, =
adding no
> actual value.
>
>
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>;
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on
> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some
> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not,
> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>
>
>
> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is
> important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety o=
f
> profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
> and not be included in SecEvent.
>
>
>
> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profil=
e
> it, there will be additional feedback.
>
>
>
> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the S=
ET.
>
>
>
> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before
> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the desi=
gn
> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>
>
>
> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we wi=
ll
> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>
>
>
> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and w=
e
> don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a
> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someo=
ne
> to work with.
>
>
>
> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting,
> and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
> documents in a timely manner.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the=
 recent
> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve b=
een at
> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over =
a year and
> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for =
me =E2=80=93 ship
> it!=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus pos=
itions
> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholesa=
le
> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we =
start
> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does =
something
> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rel=
y on it.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> Inline...
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
>
>
>
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>
>
>
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2=
Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6=
lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>accou=
nt-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> and an SCIM profile event
>
>
>
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
> the other does not make sense.
>
> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
> not mean others are not valid.
>
>
>
> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
> different events.
>
>
>
> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
> events in one SET.
>
>
>
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
> event
>
>
>
> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>
>    "event": {
>
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>
>          "resetAttempts":5
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
> account-credential-change-required
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=
=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
> ",
>
>    "event": {
>
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Annabelle/Dick,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
> the proposal in JSON.
>
>
>
> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does
> it follow the old format or the new?
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem
> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for
> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n
> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OID=
C.
>
>
>
>
> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>
>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D=
>
>        account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own contex=
t if that matters.
>
>
>
> *The new proposal:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>
>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>
>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc=
_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>          account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.
>
>
>
> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a=
 triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>         {
>
>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>           }
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fol=
lows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>
> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>
>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>
>           "resetAttempts":5
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is=
 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document=
 for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cev=
ent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8=
u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Replies inline.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Annabelle Richard Backman
>
> Identity Services
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
>
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
>
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantic=
s and is easier
> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases
> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
>
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
>
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the
> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent
> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even =
if
> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What =
value is
> gained in combining them?
>
>
>
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n
> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event
> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any even=
t
> in the token.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
> out.[/richanna]
>
>
>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
>
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
> [richanna]
>
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>
>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>
>
>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>
>
>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>
>
>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event
> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>
> Phil
>
>
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9=
CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Phil:
>
>
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
>
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
>
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
>
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
>
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
>
>
> /Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a
> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I think=
 things
> are fine as-is.
>
>                                                                  -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Annabelle,
>
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event paylo=
ad
> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows =
a
> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each ha=
ve
> independent structure.
>
> General extensions
>
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any
> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want =
to
> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can
> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reas=
on
> to rule this out.
>
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a singl=
e
> family like RISC)
>
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events
> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did
> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t
> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibiliti=
es):
>
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &
> a RISC session cancel event.
>
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects=
).
> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM li=
st
> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  I=
OW
> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not mak=
e
> this true for other profiles.
>
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events ar=
e
> related but express different data.
>
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
> Transaction
>
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as
> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure
> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>
> Previous Discussion
>
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See=
:
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwO=
QNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7b=
N161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and th=
e
> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
> event be expressed at a time.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>  <http://www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
> >
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the=
 OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, an=
d replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (s=
ingular):
>
>     event
>
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
>
>     {
>
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>
>        "aud": [
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>        ],
>
>        "event": {
>
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9
> ",
>
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>
>        }
>
>     }
>
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>
>     **
>
>     *Extensions*
>
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>
>     *Aliases*
>
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>
>     *Related Events*
>
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>
>     --
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>
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--=20
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--94eb2c12553e839b08055cee8325
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Your comments highlight a couple of points:</div><div=
><br></div><div>1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point =
for extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Mys=
elf, I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively sta=
tic, and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore proper=
ties it does not understand, which let&#39;s new properties be introduced a=
s extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be=
 done by the profile that created the event format to start off with.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code aga=
inst. I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, t=
he type of the event is well defined with=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-si=
ze:12.6667px">&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https://examp=
le.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-size:12.6667px">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>=
event/passwordResetExt</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:&qu=
ot;Courier New&quot;;font-size:12.6667px">&quot;,</span><br></div><div><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-size=
:12.6667px"><br></span></div><div><div>3) This thread is about reasons for =
multiple events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not w=
anting to sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I thin=
k we have decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the trans=
mitter over the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers=
. Given that, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of m=
anaging the receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the e=
vents, so it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separ=
ate events with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking fr=
om experience.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-size:12.6667px"><br></span></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;font-si=
ze:12.6667px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><br><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue=
, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Marius=E2=80=99 propos=
ed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=A0 The way =
I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a =
secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which
 could have been simply another event value in the current draft.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">This breaking change m=
akes the data structures more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes th=
ings that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who=
 would use the spec.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">These seem like bad tr=
adeoffs to me.<u></u><u></u></span></p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">{</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1=
bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.examp=
le.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<w=
br>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<w=
br>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https=
://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://examp=
le.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr=
>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&q=
uot;: {</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"h=
ttps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://e=
xample.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;reset=
Attempts&quot;:5,</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">}</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">In particular, it make=
s it impossible to sign multiple related events sharing a common claims sch=
ema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=A0 It forces the issuer to do=
 the extra work of signing each of the related
 events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the r=
ecipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">Not every profile will=
 ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set but there=E2=
=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"color:#002060"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<span></span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>=
] <b>
On Behalf Of </b>Dick Hardt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt=
;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please direct me to a proposal that has a &quot;prim=
ary&quot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I agree that is undesirable. I =
would also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we can drive clar=
ity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the proposal is that there is one event per =
SET.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think having more than one event per SET adds comp=
lexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET =
as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/Dick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I hear you on the fact=
 that different people have joined the effort at different times.=C2=A0 Tha=
t=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.=C2=A0 I get
 that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">I should note that I h=
ave specific technical objections to the specific proposed changes being di=
scussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently all events in the set have
 the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a=
 state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecon=
dary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.=C2=A0 That=
=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mik=
e</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-4377787755873208935_m_-501385486141026=
5301__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look=
 closely at a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are c=
oming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed
 for very long. While some of the participants have been working on this fo=
r a while, many have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be p=
rofiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are =
easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that
 the semantics make sense. I also think that properties that are specific t=
o a profile should be left to that profile and not be included in SecEvent.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as di=
fferent groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile o=
f SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at=
 how to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have =
been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there wa=
s consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others
 had expressed concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an II=
W session.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resol=
ve the remaining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do =
not think we will need to wait for another WG meeting
 to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also have a number of other documents that are no=
t in last call, and we don&#39;t have a WG adopted draft yet for management=
. So there are still a number of documents to work through
 before we have all the bits for someone to work with.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I do think we have been making good progress since t=
he last IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and fin=
alize all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/Dick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s hard for =
me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to once=
 again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this
 for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that we=
re long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a ye=
ar and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks=
 for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">There=E2=80=99s not su=
fficient justification to try to undo consensus positions that have been de=
bated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes
 at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">It=E2=80=99s far bette=
r than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning i=
t, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something =
simple
 and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rely o=
n it.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-4377787755873208935_m_-501385486141026=
5301_m_695877698024666"><span style=3D"color:#002060">=C2=A0</span></a><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.co=
m</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Inline...<br>
<br>
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a =
RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.op=
enid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l0=
9sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://=
schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"=
font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">accou<wbr>nt-cred=
ential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/sc=
im/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>=
event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would b=
e sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because=
 you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I just picked overlapping proposals that have differ=
ent meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a =
single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">As I have stated this=
 is very different from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at=
 the same level as event<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I w=
as working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/s=
cim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr=
>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6a=
b61e7521d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
{</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&qu=
ot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dt=
ype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3Dn=
Qy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http=
://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/<wbr>account-credential=
-change-<wbr>required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=
=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://i=
dp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine =
the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the pr=
oposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recur=
sive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we hav=
e an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also=
 the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might
 generate the following event which has an extension (conveying reset count=
) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might be importa=
nt to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwor=
dReset&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f61=
42df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/eve=
nt/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/=
passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV=
42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://schema=
s.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by=
 the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if th=
at matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">The ne=
w proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:p=
arams:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new str=
ucture? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.=
com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim=
/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts=
&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">=
http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot;:=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13=
.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same complaint a=
bout the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* (=
if the receiver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a tri=
ple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"ht=
tps://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr=
>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&quot;:</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;=
:<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.=
5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></=
u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">In the ab=
ove, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the ol=
d format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<pre><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>{<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>=
30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Fee=
ds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account=
-credential-change-<wbr>required<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=E2=80=9D,=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C" target=
=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_=
type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>passwordRes=
etExt</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAtte=
mpts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">This form=
at follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers d=
eep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document for things=
 that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre>
</div>
<pre>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
@independentid<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_u=
GCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SH=
Jamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.=
com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">richanna@a=
mazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">--=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,ser=
if">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208=
935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Phil H=
unt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769=
80246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sund=
ay, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick H=
ardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron =
Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;R=
ichard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></=
a>&gt;,
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587=
76980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>R=
e: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I hope this answers your question.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. =
The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for=
 easier solutions unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[=
/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, s=
ome not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *s=
ame*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 =
A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=C2=
=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include=
 these events in the same SET? They are likely being generated by different=
 systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by =
different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side,
 and possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I know the la=
tter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is =
it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained in comb=
ining them?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Additionally, since the signature is over the=
 SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently route separate even=
ts from a single token without either losing the ability to verify the auth=
enticity of the event or sharing all
 information in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.[=
/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the=
 same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an ex=
isting event type (a pure extension)=C2=A0<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support e=
xtensions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems wit=
h it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by spe=
cific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For o=
ne is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentia=
lly conflicting.=C2=A0<br>
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more compli=
cated:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
It results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which=
 I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A =
and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they =
were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li>=
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:#c346e0;background:white">
Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to =
use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish=
 an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate=
 the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"color:#c346e0">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean =
by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are already defined by the=
 spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
Phil<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
@independentid<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0Ha=
TX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxue=
oPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word &quot=
;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really r=
equired in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate=
 multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, but the distributed system wi=
ll certainly need to correlate events on the same subject
 -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same subject seem=
s fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same =
subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexi=
ty with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k one way and minimize the code paths, and we
 will need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the b=
est mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</sp=
an></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m=
6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the=
 definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br>
<br>
Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MA=
Y restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim =
to contain only a single event statement.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-501385486=
1410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br>
<br>
On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br>
<br>
It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for=
 all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026=
5301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span>-- Mike<br>
<br>
*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</s=
pan></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>
*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>
*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span><=
/a>&gt;<br>
*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<=
br>
*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br>
<br>
Annabelle,<br>
<br>
I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br>
<br>
Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br>
<br>
Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inte=
r-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload spa=
ce by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts t=
hat may add to complexity later
 on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more =
JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br>
<br>
General extensions<br>
<br>
The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any s=
pecific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to =
block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can a=
lso anticipate some delivery scenarios
 where additional data might be required. Even though there is no current p=
lanned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br>
<br>
Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single =
family like RISC)<br>
<br>
In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events i=
n one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did no=
t discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out mu=
lti-events from different families at the
 SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.<br>
<br>
I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and whic=
h is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br>
<br>
A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities=
):<br>
<br>
* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events fro=
m different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br>
<br>
* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state=
 changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Havi=
ng to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D wou=
ld be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node
 delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I w=
ould not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does =
not want to express multiple events does not make this true for other profi=
les.<br>
<br>
* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/=
session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are re=
lated but express different data.<br>
<br>
Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transactio=
n<br>
<br>
If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) wo=
uld be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as rep=
eats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not =
sure it can be used in live or near-real
 time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<=
br>
<br>
Previous Discussion<br>
<br>
I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary ev=
ent attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br=
>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666=
0703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darch=
ive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1a=
LcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMV=
iqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/cu=
rrent/<wbr>msg00406.html</span></a><br>
<br>
*<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666=
0703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darch=
ive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1a=
LcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gy=
RoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/cu=
rrent/<wbr>msg00140.html</span></a><br>
<br>
The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure=
 this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profil=
es they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be =
expressed at a time.<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
<br>
Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>
<br>
@independentid<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0=
f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-501385486141=
0265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-=
3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1=
q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-43777877558732=
08935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com=
</span></a>&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m=
_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608=
0349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>icha=
nna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt;
 wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multi=
ple<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional com=
plexity<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed thi=
s in the OIDF<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RI=
SC will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, h=
aving<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of =
use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of th=
e<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D =
claim (singular):<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member who=
se value is a URI<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specifica=
tion.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional =
members<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this=
 change<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695=
8776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>4d3559ec67504aaba65d=
40b0363faa<wbr>d8&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.exa=
mple.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102653=
01m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7</span></a>&quot;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ie=
tf:params:scim:event:<wbr>create&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Users/<wbr>44f614=
2df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&qu=
ot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;em=
ails&quot;]<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that=
 cannot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the eve=
nt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=
=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage=
 of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that there is a single =
primary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for con=
fusion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event a=
t all.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my propose=
d text,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clie=
nts<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized event names. In this c=
ase,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical=
 event,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m=
6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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8776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-4377787755873208935m-50=
13854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;=
<br>
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8776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
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p;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAe=
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oJn8XG5<wbr>JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3D<wbr>X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58<wbr>Z=
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<br>
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&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iM=
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lor:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><=
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</blockquote>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
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<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iM=
Q4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</span></a><=
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<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
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<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
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6660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
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<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
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n><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtwar=
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<span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif=
">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
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ctyXPpuYqPk<wbr>AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D<wbr>YBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-<wbr>2tDkn31Auxu=
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EXs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">______________________________<wb=
r>_________________</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">Id-event mailing list</span><br>
</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:purp=
le;background:white">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
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tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec=
&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:purple;background:white">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>co=
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">______________________________<wbr>_________________=
<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
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<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--
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From nobody Wed Nov  1 11:20:51 2017
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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	charset=utf-8

You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same =
type).  The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =20=


Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It =
currently states:
> events
>       The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event =
statements
>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>       logical event that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT =
be
>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>       multiple logical events.

The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for =
multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile =
familities) needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be =
INSECURE to force multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism =
only allows one SET to be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure =
that a single receiver gets all of the SETs it needs in a =
multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.  Assembling multiple =
SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state database is NOT =
simple nor cost effective. =20

If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, =
deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace =
conflicts.

IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =20

The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts =
between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft =
and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to =
multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>=20
> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be =
included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs =
anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another =
scenario that they have to support.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not =
support multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are =
again:
> Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the =
single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use =
case.
> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two =
events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
> A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as =
if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
> A is an extension of B.
> B is an extension of A.
> A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
> A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the =
transmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same =
receiver.
> Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different =
profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
> Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. =
This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information =
necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
> =20
> --=20
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
> =20
> =20
> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List =
<id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
> =20
> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the =
recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have =
to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing =
information about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, =
than to receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then =
required.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil =
Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
> =20
> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
> =20
> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for =
extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. =
Myself, I think this is overly complicated. Events should be =
comparatively static, and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver =
should ignore properties it does not understand, which let's new =
properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be any conflict =
as extensions should only be done by the profile that created the event =
format to start off with.
> =20
> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not =
sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the =
event is well defined with=20
> =20
> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>",
> =20
> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in =
one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events =
as a reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given =
a preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver =
as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is =
more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the =
receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so =
it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate =
events with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking =
from experience.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this =
characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a =
primary passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data =
structure, which could have been simply another event value in the =
current draft.
>> =20
>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not =
less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing =
flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>> =20
>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>> =20
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>",
>>    "event": { =20
>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>          "extensions": {
>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>=E2=80=9D: {
>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>            }
>>          }
>>        }
>> }
>> =20
>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events =
sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  =
It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related =
events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the =
recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary =
signatures.
>> =20
>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>> =20
>>                                                        -- Mike
>> =C2=A0 <>
>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>; Phil Hunt (IDM) =
<phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>=20
>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>> =20
>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" =
events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in =
the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>> =20
>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>> =20
>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a =
receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well =
as correlated events in the same SET.
>> =20
>> /Dick
>> =20
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort =
at different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds =
momentum.  I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus =
calls were taken.
>>> =20
>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the =
specific proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events =
in the set have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, =
revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the =
two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no =
actual value.
>>> =20
>>>                                                                 -- =
Mike
>>> =20
>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>]=20
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>> Cc: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>=20
>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>> =20
>>> Mike
>>> =20
>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a =
specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on =
only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While =
some of the participants have been working on this for a while, many =
have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>> =20
>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel =
it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a =
variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also =
think that properties that are specific to a profile should be left to =
that profile and not be included in SecEvent.
>>> =20
>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups =
profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>> =20
>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number =
of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use =
the SET.
>>> =20
>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of =
changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. =
Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on =
the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>> =20
>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining =
issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we =
will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=20
>>> =20
>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, =
and we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are =
still a number of documents to work through before we have all the bits =
for someone to work with.
>>> =20
>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF =
meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all =
the documents in a timely manner.
>>> =20
>>> /Dick
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> =
wrote:
>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration =
with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec. =
 We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep =
trying to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensus.  =
It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC =
respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship =
it!=E2=80=9D
>>>> =20
>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo =
consensus positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  =
Countenancing wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive =
in the extreme!
>>>> =20
>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, =
if we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s =
delay.  It does something simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just =
ship it, so people can rely on it.
>>>> =20
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>> =C2=A0 <>
>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>]=20
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; ID =
Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>=20
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>> =20
>>>> Inline...
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile =
event=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>> =20
>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>> =20
>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>=E2=80=9D
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding =
one in the other does not make sense.
>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this =
does not mean others are not valid.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning =
(but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single =
set with different events.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple =
distinct events in one SET.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same =
level as event
>>>> =20
>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>",
>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>> =20
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": =
"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credential-cha=
nge-required =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w=
&s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>",
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/ =
<https://idp.example.com/>"      =20
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the =
consequences of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed =
extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive =
way). Does it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity =
management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the =
underlying data store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the =
following event which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND =
overlapping statement from RISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a =
similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>":
>>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/ =
<https://idp.example.com/>"
>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>   }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued =
without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority =
in its own context if that matters.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> The new proposal:
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>      =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,
>>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>":
>>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/ =
<https://idp.example.com/>"
>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>    }   =20
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. =
The same complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this =
leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>      =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-type/\ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C =
<https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C>,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>         {=20
>>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt =
<https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>":
>>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>>>>>           }     =20
>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>    }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it =
extends. It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that =
this leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>      =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/even=
t-type/\ =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_=
secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C =
<https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C>,
>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>         =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,
>>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>           =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext <https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt>=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>    }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format =
recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue =
to search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to =
stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than =
iterate over an array.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
<richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>, ID Events Mailing =
List <id-event@ietf.org <mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a =
reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification to =
make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>>>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer =
semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions =
unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are =
good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely =
the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password =
reset.  A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to =
the other?  Do they overlap or are they distinct? =20
>>>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in =
the same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at =
different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different =
systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted =
over different event streams. I know the latter would be the case for =
us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send =
these events separately? What value is gained in combining them?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the =
event objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a =
single token without either losing the ability to verify the =
authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with =
every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements =
about the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to =
an existing event type (a pure extension)=20
>>>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an =
event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please =
point them out.[/richanna]
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited =
by specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies =
anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON =
structure) and potentially conflicting.=20
>>>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use =
case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of =
two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing =
as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles =
may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have =
to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not =
overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you =
referring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be =
URIs.[/richanna]
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com =
<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the =
word "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is =
really required in SET.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to =
correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system =
will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- =
correlating events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly =
simple.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on =
the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and =
adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a =
single SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support =
both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will =
need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best =
mechanism.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add =
to the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event =
statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles =
may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t =
have to be true for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>                                                               =
   -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org =
<mailto:id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per =
SET?
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles =
leads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on =
the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential =
limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The =
current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON =
payloads which can each have independent structure.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not =
related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I =
would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general =
purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where =
additional data might be required. Even though there is no current =
planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple =
Events from a single family like RISC)
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct =
RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a =
time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a =
reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET =
level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the =
same event.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the =
primary and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just =
possibilities):
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express =
simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For =
example a Backchannel Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing =
multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes =
multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM list has not =
discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  IOW - =
Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make =
this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed =
and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The =
events are related but express different data.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the =
Same Transaction
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state =
(e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not =
mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis =
capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real =
time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading =
architectures.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to =
designate primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this =
was not accepted. See:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> * =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJ=
wOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> * =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-=
2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the =
receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each =
event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit =
that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D> =
<http://www.independentid.com =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.c=
om&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>>
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com> =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com> =
<mailto:richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing =
multiple
>>>>>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional =
complexity
>>>>>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed =
this in the OIDF
>>>>>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is =
that RISC will
>>>>>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the =
SET, having
>>>>>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful =
of use
>>>>>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have =
raised. With
>>>>>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition =
of the
>>>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event =
Token spec, and replacing it
>>>>>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D=
 claim (singular):
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose =
value is a URI
>>>>>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling =
Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain =
additional members
>>>>>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with =
this change
>>>>>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com =
<https://scim.example.com/> <https://scim.example.com/ =
<https://scim.example.com/>>",
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>          =
"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754>",
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>          =
"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7 =
<https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7>"
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>          "ref": =
"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9 =
<https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9>",
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", =
"emails"]
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs =
that cannot
>>>>>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified =
three use
>>>>>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the =
event
>>>>>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =
=E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the =
advantage of
>>>>>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a =
single primary
>>>>>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for =
confusion
>>>>>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary =
event at all.
>>>>>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my =
proposed text,
>>>>>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating =
clients
>>>>>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In =
this case,
>>>>>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the =
logical event,
>>>>>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of =
correlating
>>>>>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org> =
<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>     =
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>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event =
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>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46Q=
Sz0&e=3D>
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC=
_w&s=3DwtgD3Np0vyhLdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&e=3D> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6=
MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVRz=
wc&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ=
6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVR=
zwc&e=3D>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qh=
lo&s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&e=3D> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qh=
lo&s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&e=3D> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=3D=
DwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qh=
lo&s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&e=3D> mail list to =
learn about projects I am working on!
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZkt=
cmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcOR=
V0&e=3D =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZk=
tcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcO=
RV0&e=3D>


--Apple-Mail=_B8486D94-C6FA-41CE-AB10-3AE14293DB46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of =
the same type). &nbsp;The current spec can only have one instance of a =
URI (afaik). &nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple =
event SETS. &nbsp;It currently states:<div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">events
      <b class=3D"">The semantics of this claim is to define a set of =
event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The spec has *always* supported =
requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple separate profile =
statements (from one or more profile familities) needing to be sent as a =
single message. &nbsp;It would be INSECURE to force multiple SETs =
because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be =
delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver =
gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node =
environment at scale. &nbsp;Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=
=E2=80=9D in a common state database is NOT simple nor cost effective. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we =
accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply =
nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace =
conflicts.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">IMO =
The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts between =
profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft and =
observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to =
multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div =
class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unless the profile =
guarantees that such related events will always be included in the same =
SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple =
events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they =
have to support.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we =
should not support multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. =
Here they are again:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1"=
 style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Multiple event support results =
in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which I think =
we all agree is the majority use case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Multiple-event SETs have =
ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET =
could mean any of:<o:p class=3D""></o:p><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">A and B are related to the same =
logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs =
that have a common txn).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">A is an extension of B.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">B =
is an extension of A.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">A is an alias for B, or =
vice-versa.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">A and B are not actually related to one another in =
any way, and the transmitter bundled them together because they were =
going to the same receiver.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Top-level claim semantics =
become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the same =
claims in different ways.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Event authenticity cannot be =
verified without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose =
downstream systems to more information necessary, if those systems need =
to be able to verify authenticity.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, =
2017 at 11:21 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron=
 Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, =
"Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use =
cases for multiple events per SET?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I =
completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the =
recipient.&nbsp; In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to =
have to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing =
information about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, =
than to receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then =
required.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, =
96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 =
9:39 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron=
 Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases =
for multiple events per SET?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Your =
comments highlight a couple of points:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1) The example is how to have a =
predefined extension point for extensions of a specific event, it is not =
how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly complicated. =
Events should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON =
formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, =
which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not =
be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile that =
created the event format to start off with.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much =
harder to code against. I'm not sure why Marius had that in his example. =
Per the event, the type of the event is well defined with&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif; color: rgb(80, 0, 80);" =
class=3D"">"event_type": "</span><a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</span></a><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; color: =
rgb(80, 0, 80);" class=3D"">",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3) This thread is about =
reasons for multiple events to be contained in one set. Your mention of =
an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a reason to allow =
multiple events. I think we have decided that given a preference, we =
will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use =
cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for =
a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple =
events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to =
have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as =
an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Marius=E2=80=99=
 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this =
characteristic.&nbsp; The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a =
primary passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data =
structure, which could have been simply another event value in the =
current draft.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">This =
breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not =
less.&nbsp; And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, =
reducing flexibility to those who would use the spec.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">These seem like bad =
tradeoffs to me.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": =
1458496025,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
/span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</=
span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;"event_type": "<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"extensions": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: =
{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"resetAttempts":5,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">In =
particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events =
sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the =
issuer.&nbsp; It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each =
of the related events (or facets of the same logical event) individually =
and forces the recipients to do the extra work of checking all those =
unnecessary signatures.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Not every =
profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set =
but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 =
9:52 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron=
 Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;;=
 Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases =
for multiple events per SET?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and =
"secondary" events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage =
to engage in the discussions so that we can drive clarity and =
simplicity.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think having more than one event per =
SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated =
events in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/Dick<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I hear you =
on the fact that different people have joined the effort at different =
times.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds =
momentum.&nbsp; I get that not everyone was there when previous =
consensus calls were taken.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">I should =
note that I have specific technical objections to the specific proposed =
changes being discussed as well.&nbsp; Currently all events in the set =
have the same syntax.&nbsp; The proposals, as I understand them, revert =
us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two =
classes.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no =
actual value.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 =
9:37 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil =
Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases =
for multiple events per SET?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a =
specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on =
only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While =
some of the participants have been working on this for a while, many =
have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Since SecEvent is a framework that we =
expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent =
specifications are easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the =
semantics make sense. I also think that properties that are specific to =
a profile should be left to that profile and not be included in =
SecEvent.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different =
groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Specifically, as a participant in the =
RISC profile of SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC =
WG has looked at how to use the SET.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a =
number of changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was =
consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed =
concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW =
session.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the =
remaining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not =
think we will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last =
call.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">We also have a number of other documents that are not in last =
call, and we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there =
are still a number of documents to work through before we have all the =
bits for someone to work with.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I do think we have been making good progress since the last =
IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize =
all the documents in a timely manner.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">/Dick<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s =
hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the recent =
attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99=
ve been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit =
decisions that were long ago made by consensus.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been =
stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some =
variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s not =
sufficient justification to try to undo consensus positions that have =
been debated and affirmed over and over.&nbsp; Countenancing wholesale =
changes at this late date is counterproductive in the =
extreme!</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s =
far better than good enough as-is.&nbsp; In my experience, if we start =
redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.&nbsp; It =
does something simple and useful.&nbsp; Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship =
it, so people can rely on it.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 =
2:42 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron=
 Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases =
for multiple events per SET?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Inline...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Phil<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, =
but there is a RISC profile event&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; =
white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/</a></span><=
span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">account-credential-change-required</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">and an SCIM profile event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; =
white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif; white-space: =
pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I'm suggesting that two =
different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make =
sense.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. =
Just because you disagree on this does not mean others are not =
valid.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I just picked overlapping proposals that have different =
meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a =
single set with different events.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">As I have stated this is very =
different from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same =
level as event<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed =
format.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
/span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</=
span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"resetAttempts":5</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
/span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</=
span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2y=
mRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&=
amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-cred=
ential-change-required</a>",</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/</a>"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier =
New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Annabelle/Dick,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the =
consequences of the proposal in JSON.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed =
extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive =
way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Let=E2=80=99s &nbsp;consider a use case =
where we have an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM =
system is also the underlying data store for Connect.&nbsp; A Password =
reset might generate the following event which has an extension =
(conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH =
of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events": {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { =
"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { =
"resetAttempts":5},<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/</a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 }</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In the above - =
each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without preference by the =
transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that =
matters.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The new proposal:</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"iat": 1458496025,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old =
or new structure? &lt;-<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { =
"resetAttempts":5},<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required": {</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/</a>"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 }</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
}</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">}</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different =
format. The same complaint about the original stands.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).&nbsp; Note that =
this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">{<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span =
style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a></span>=
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>":<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D"font-size: =
13.5pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp; </span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</=
span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">In the above, the extension is placed inside the =
event it extends. It follows the old format (or should it follow the =
new?)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*OR* Following =
the top layer pattern of singular event&nbsp; Note that this leads to a =
triple nested structure.</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "jti": =
"3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</a>",<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "aud": [<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span =
style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" class=3D"">"<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.open=
id.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\</a></span>=
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;account-credential-change-required<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span>"id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D:{<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a =
href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D,<o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"resetAttempts":5<span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt;" class=3D""> =
</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">}</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This format =
follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers =
deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document for =
things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=
=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Phil<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, =
Identity Cloud Services Architect<br class=3D"">@independentid<br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_u=
GCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-S=
HJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 =
AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">Replies inline.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Identity =
Services</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Phil Hunt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Sunday, October =
29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
 class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, =
Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, =
ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] =
Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">I hope this =
answers your question.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t =
see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification =
to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier =
solutions unless there are use cases that require more =
complexity.[/richanna]</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">There are many reasons for multiple events in a =
SET.&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">1.&nbsp; =
Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the =
*same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password =
reset.&nbsp; A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement =
to the other?&nbsp; Do they overlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier =
email:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">Why is it necessary or =
appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They are likely =
being generated by different systems at different times on the =
transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the =
receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different =
event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a =
receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these =
events separately? What value is gained in combining them?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" =
class=3D"">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the =
event objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a =
single token without either losing the ability to verify the =
authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with =
every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">2.&nbsp; Multiple events payloads expressing different =
statements about the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC =
Session Cancel<br class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" =
class=3D"">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">3.&nbsp; A new =
profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event =
type (a pure extension)&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">[richanna]I have suggested a way to =
support extensions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see =
problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">I think it is =
quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by specific =
profiles like RISC if they want.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">I am not in =
agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For one is =
makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially =
conflicting.&nbsp;<br class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, =
224);" class=3D"">[richanna]</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">Ways =
that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">It results in a more complex structure for the single event =
use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">Multiple-event SETs have =
ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET =
could mean any of:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" =
type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D""><ol start=3D"1" =
type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;">They are related to the same =
logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs =
that have a common txn).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">A is an extension of B.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;">B is an extension of A.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">They are aliases for one =
another.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">They are not actually related to one another in any way.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(195, 70, 224); background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;">Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles =
may want to use the same claims in different ways.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">If the WG =
wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an =
event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate =
the need to express multiple events.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(195, 70, 224);" class=3D"">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not =
sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are =
already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">Phil<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services =
Architect<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">@independentid<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0Ha=
TX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxu=
eoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phil:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use =
the word "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is =
really required in SET.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system =
to correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed =
system will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- =
correlating events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly =
simple.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same =
subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds =
complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">An implementor may choose to send =
multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver =
will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the =
code paths, and we will need to support correlating across multiple =
SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Let me know if there is something I =
missed in my logic.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Dick</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: =
white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In that case, let's add =
text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the "events" =
claim:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiling specifications SHOULD =
define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For =
example, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single =
event statement.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones =
wrote:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;"><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree with much =
of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It=E2=80=99=
s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set =
must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all =
events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">id-event-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>] =
*On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br class=3D"">*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 =
8:47 PM<br class=3D"">*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc:*=
 ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject:* Re: =
[Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Annabelle,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I have a number of =
concerns with this proposal.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiling =
Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles =
leads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on =
the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential =
limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The =
current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON =
payloads which can each have independent structure.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">General extensions<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The proposal =
also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any specific =
event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block =
the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can also =
anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be =
required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good =
reason to rule this out.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Multiple Events =
=46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like =
RISC)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In our RISC session we discussed =
expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was =
that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event =
profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from =
different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly =
different things about the same event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and =
which is the extension.&nbsp; There may not be a clear winner.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A couple of examples (these are necessarily =
real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* It is =
probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from =
different SET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchannel =
Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* =
SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple =
state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple =
effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =
=E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a =
multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has =
not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.&nbsp; =
IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does =
not make this true for other profiles.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">* We =
may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The =
events are related but express different data.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the =
Same Transaction<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If events are sent =
separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required =
to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While =
txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it =
can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed =
multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Previous Discussion<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I note that =
I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event =
attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406=
.html</span></a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">*<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140=
.html</span></a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The consensus, at least as =
I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the =
definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. =
IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a =
time.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Phil<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">@independentid<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independ=
entid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB=
0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, =
Annabelle<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET =
spec allows for expressing multiple<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; events =
within the same token, which introduces additional complexity<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve =
discussed this in the OIDF<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC working =
group and the current consensus there is that RISC will<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; require that RISC events must be the only event =
in the SET, having<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; identified ways to =
clearly and easily support the handful of use<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. =
With<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose =
striking the definition of the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following definition for an =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a =
URI<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event defined in =
a Profiling Specification.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY =
otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; as described by the Profiling Specification.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET from section 2.3, =
rewritten with this change<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": =
"4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458496404,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;",<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "aud": [<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</span>=
</a>",<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;"<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span>=
</a>"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span>=
</a>",<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", =
"password", "emails"]<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp; }<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone in the working group =
have use cases for SETs that cannot<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; be met =
by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions outlined below:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the =
event<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; object. A simple approach would be to =
&nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as defined in =
the current spec). This has the advantage of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero or more extensions. There is =
no room for confusion<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; over which event is =
primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed =
text,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; if there is consensus that it is =
broadly useful.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; *Aliases*<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in =
the context of migrating clients<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft =
event names to standardized event names. In this case,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can transmit two tokens =
for the logical event,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old =
name and another using the new name.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; *Related Events*<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; The =
SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; independent tokens that relate to the same =
logical event.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; --<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
QcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk=
&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7j=
iRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lL=
IGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3Izl=
F7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
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initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><span =
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0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
CC: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 20:19:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>,  Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type)=
.  The
> current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>
> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It
> currently states:
>
> events
>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>       multiple logical events.
>
>
> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for
> multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities=
)
> needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force
> multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET =
to
> be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver
> gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment
> at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a c=
ommon state
> database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>

I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receivers
have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
unrelated to this proposal.



>
> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex,
> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.
>
> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>
> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft
> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs
> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another
> scenario that they have to support.
>
> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not sup=
port
> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:
>
>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the
>    single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use =
case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and
>       the transmitter bundled them together because they were going to th=
e same
>       receiver.
>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more inform=
ation
>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle"
> <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil
> Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipient.
> In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to correlate=
 and
> process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the same
> logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with al=
l
> the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with=
 no correlation
> over time then required.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>
> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensions
> of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think
> this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as
> with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it do=
es
> not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions.
> There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the
> profile that created the event format to start off with.
>
> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not sure
> why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event =
is
> well defined with
>
> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>
> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in on=
e
> set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a
> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as i=
n
> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of
> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpl=
er
> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a URI =
as
> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary
> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, whic=
h
> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>
> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing
> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>
> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>    "event": {
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>          "extensions": {
>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
>              "resetAttempts":5,
>            }
>          }
>        }
> }
>
> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It
> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the
> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
> signatures.
>
> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but
> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dick
> Hardt
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in
> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>
> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>
> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver
> must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlat=
ed
> events in the same SET.
>
> /Dick
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mom=
entum.  I
> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.
>
> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the se=
t
> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to =
a
> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cseco=
ndary=E2=80=9D events, with different
> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, =
adding no
> actual value.
>
>                                                                 -- Mike
>
> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>;
> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Mike
>
> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on
> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some
> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not,
> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>
> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is
> important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety o=
f
> profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
> and not be included in SecEvent.
>
> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profil=
e
> it, there will be additional feedback.
>
> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the S=
ET.
>
> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before
> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the desi=
gn
> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>
> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we wi=
ll
> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>
> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and w=
e
> don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a
> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someo=
ne
> to work with.
>
> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting,
> and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
> documents in a timely manner.
>
> /Dick
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the=
 recent
> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve b=
een at
> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over =
a year and
> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for =
me =E2=80=93 ship
> it!=E2=80=9D
>
> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus pos=
itions
> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholesa=
le
> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>
> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we =
start
> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does =
something
> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rel=
y on it.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events
> Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Inline...
>
> Phil
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
>
> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>
>
>
> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2=
Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6=
lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>accou=
nt-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> and an SCIM profile event
>
>
> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
> the other does not make sense.
>
> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
> not mean others are not valid.
>
> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
> different events.
>
>
> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
> events in one SET.
>
>
> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
> event
>
>
>
> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>    "event": {
>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>          "resetAttempts":5
>        }
> }
>
> {
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>   "aud": [
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>    ],
>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/
> account-credential-change-required
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net=
_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=
=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
> ",
>    "event": {
>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>        }
> }
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> Annabelle/Dick,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
> the proposal in JSON.
>
> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does
> it follow the old format or the new?
>
> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management s=
ystem
> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for
> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has a=
n
> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OID=
C.
>
>
> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "events": {
>
>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>
>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_e=
vent-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D=
>
>        account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>   }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefer=
ence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own contex=
t if that matters.
>
>
>
> *The new proposal:*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRes=
et=E2=80=9D,
>
>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>
>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc=
_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>          account-credential-change-required": {
>
>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>
>        }
>
>      }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same =
complaint about the original stands.
>
>
>
> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to a=
 triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>
>         {
>
>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>
>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>
>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>
>           }
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fol=
lows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>
> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.*
>
>
>
> {
>
>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>
>   "iat": 1458496025,
>
>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>
>   "aud": [
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>    ],
>
>    "event": {
>
>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ris=
c/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schem=
as.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CX=
Sg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>
>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>
>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>
>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>
>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>
>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>
>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>
>           "resetAttempts":5
>
>         }
>
>       }
>
>    }
>
> }
>
>
>
> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and is=
 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the document=
 for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cev=
ent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>
>
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8=
u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> Replies inline.
>
> --
> Annabelle Richard Backman
> Identity Services
>
>
> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not=
. The question should be,
> what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantic=
s and is easier
> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases
> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>
> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, some
> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>
> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A
> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o
> they overlap or are they distinct?
> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the
> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent
> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even =
if
> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What =
value is
> gained in combining them?
>
> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n
> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event
> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any even=
t
> in the token.[/richanna]
>
>
> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
> existing event type (a pure extension)
> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
> out.[/richanna]
>
> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>
> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For
> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
> potentially conflicting.
> [richanna]
> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>
>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>
>
>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>       2. A is an extension of B.
>       3. B is an extension of A.
>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>
>
>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>
>
> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o
> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring t=
o event
> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9=
CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Phil:
>
> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may"=
,
> which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in
> SET.
>
> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate
> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>
> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>
> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET wit=
h
> multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pic=
k
> one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>
> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>
> /Dick
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
> definition of the "events" claim:
>
> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>
> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>
> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D set must be a
> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I think=
 things
> are fine as-is.
>
>                                                                  -- Mike
>
> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
> Hunt
> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>
> Annabelle,
>
> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>
> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>
> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event paylo=
ad
> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows =
a
> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each ha=
ve
> independent structure.
>
> General extensions
>
> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any
> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want =
to
> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can
> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good reas=
on
> to rule this out.
>
> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a singl=
e
> family like RISC)
>
> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events
> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did
> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule ou=
t
> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>
> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>
> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibiliti=
es):
>
> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logout=
 &
> a RISC session cancel event.
>
> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects=
).
> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM li=
st
> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  I=
OW
> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not mak=
e
> this true for other profiles.
>
> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events ar=
e
> related but express different data.
>
> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
> Transaction
>
> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as
> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure
> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>
> Previous Discussion
>
> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See=
:
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwO=
QNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>
> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7b=
N161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>
> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and th=
e
> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
> event be expressed at a time.
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>
> @independentid
>
> www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>  <http://www.independentid.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
> >
>
> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>
>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>
>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the=
 OIDF
>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, an=
d replacing it
>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (s=
ingular):
>
>     event
>
>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>
>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>     mind:
>
>     {
>
>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>
>        "iat": 1458496404,
>
>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>
>        "aud": [
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>
>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>
>        ],
>
>        "event": {
>
>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>
>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9
> ",
>
>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>
>        }
>
>     }
>
>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>
>     **
>
>     *Extensions*
>
>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D
>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>
>     *Aliases*
>
>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>
>     *Related Events*
>
>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>
>     --
>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>
>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>
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> sIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3D
> gdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&e=3D
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>

--94eb2c111b060111a2055cf2b08c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at=
 least of the same type).=C2=A0 The current spec can only have one instance=
 of a URI (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec normatively=
 does not support multiple event SETS.=C2=A0 It currently states:<div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_5683402937781561080newpage" style=3D"f=
ont-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-he=
ight:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architec=
t</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">www.independentid.com</a></div></div>=
</div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=
=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_56=
83402937781561080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unles=
s the profile guarantees that such related events will always be included i=
n the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and =
multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that t=
hey have to support.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we shoul=
d not support multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they =
are again:<u></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bo=
ttom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the s=
ingle event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<=
u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A =
and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=
=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_5683402937=
781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are related to the same logical eve=
nt (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a com=
mon txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagr=
aph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li=
><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for=
 B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoL=
istParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">A and B are not actually related to one another in any w=
ay, and the transmitter bundled them together because they were going to th=
e same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_568340293778156=
1080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim semantics become harder to defin=
e, as different profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.=
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. This =
forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information necessary=
, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></l=
i></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;=
Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Rom=
an&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-=
top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, November=
 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard B=
ackman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing=
 List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple =
events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I comple=
tely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipient.=C2=A0 In =
my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to correlate and =
process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the same lo=
gical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with all th=
e aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no =
correlation over time then required.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_5683402937781561080__Ma=
ilEndCompose" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mailto:dick.hard=
t@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b>=
<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mik=
e Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Shef=
fer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richa=
nna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span cl=
ass=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-eve=
nt] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple=
 of points:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The example is how to have a predefined extensio=
n point for extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another ev=
ent. Myself, I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparati=
vely static, and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignor=
e properties it does not understand, which let&#39;s new properties be intr=
oduced as extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should=
 only be done by the profile that created the event format to start off wit=
h.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against.=
 I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the ty=
pe of the event is well defined with=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quo=
t;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=
=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordReset=
Ext</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This threa=
d is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in one set. Your men=
tion of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a reason to allow =
multiple events. I think we have decided that given a preference, we will p=
ush effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use cases there =
are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a receiver to h=
ave different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as not all is=
suers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one event per S=
ET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to=
 implement, speaking from experience.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mik=
e Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"=
cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=
=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=
=A0 The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset =
event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which could have bee=
n simply another event value in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change make=
s the data structures more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes thing=
s that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who wo=
uld use the spec.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,32,96)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></=
u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &=
quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7=
754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http=
s://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.=
com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>eve=
nt/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e75=
21d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;extensions&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/ev=
ent/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/password=
ResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events sh=
aring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=A0 I=
t forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related eve=
nts (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recip=
ients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not=
 every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m=
_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose" class=3D"creme=
d"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-s=
pace">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf=
.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=
=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt=
<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"=
m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>=
&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.h=
unt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple eve=
nts per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me to a proposal that has a &qu=
ot;primary&quot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I agree that is undesira=
ble. I would also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we can dri=
ve clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is that there is one =
event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event per SET adds =
complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one =
SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid=
;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0=
in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear you on the fact that different people hav=
e joined the effort at different times.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal proce=
ss as an effort builds momentum.=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there wh=
en previous consensus calls were taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note that I have specific t=
echnical objections to the specific proposed changes being discussed as wel=
l.=C2=A0 Currently all events in the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The pr=
oposals, as I understand them, revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a=
 =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with dif=
ferent syntax for the two classes.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more com=
plicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u>=
</u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"=
_blank" class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=
=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, Octob=
er 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b>=
<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phi=
l Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt=
@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt=
;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"=
>id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Su=
bject:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look closely =
at a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up =
on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While som=
e of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not,=
 and we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent=
 is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to en=
sure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of profiles to ado=
pt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that properties that ar=
e specific to a profile should be left to that profile and not be included =
in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as =
different groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of iss=
ues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET.<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a numbe=
r of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there was consensus.=
 Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on th=
e design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to=
 taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues in S=
ET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need to wa=
it for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also h=
ave a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don&#39;t=
 have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of=
 documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work =
with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the la=
st IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize=
 all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=
=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=
=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=
=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with the recent at=
tempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve =
been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decis=
ions that were long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable f=
or over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =
=E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=80=99s not suffic=
ient justification to try to undo consensus positions that have been debate=
d and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes at this=
 late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far better than=
 good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning it, it =
will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something simple=
 and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rely o=
n it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)=
">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><a name=3D"m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-5013854861=
4102" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-=
top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=
=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:4=
2 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_568340293778=
1561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard =
Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">rich=
anna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk" class=3D"cremed">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing=
 List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">id-event@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event=
] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inlin=
e...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>=
On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"cremed">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but ther=
e is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_=
risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXS=
g8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>s=
ecevent/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Arial,sans-serif">accou<wbr>nt-credential-change-required</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pr=
e></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-=
space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRes=
etExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=
=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;m suggesting that two different=
 events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;It is a h=
ypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not mean others=
 are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping proposals that have d=
ifferent meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issui=
ng a single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I=
 have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct events=
 in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;mar=
gin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type b=
e at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd=
193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&=
quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com</=
a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds=
/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0864=
1d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08=
641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span =
style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.com=
/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6a=
b61e7521d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&=
quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://sc=
im.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D=
"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc87959=
3b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http=
s://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype=
_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9=
ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.o=
penid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/<wbr>account-credential-change-<wbr=
>required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&q=
uot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.=
example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"cremed">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none soli=
d;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in =
0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabel=
le/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine th=
e consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes mos=
t of the issue is the proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly=
 using events in a recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the new=
?<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we have an identity m=
anagement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying=
 data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might generate the followin=
g event which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping stat=
ement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiv=
er using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would =
allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;=
,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;=
,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.examp=
le.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.exa=
mple.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com=
/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordReset&q=
uot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9&quot;},<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"h=
ttps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.co=
m/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5=
},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6l=
K67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type/\</a>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-<wbr>required&quot=
;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://idp.example.=
<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above =
- each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by the=
 transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that m=
atters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf7975=
84bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">h=
ttps://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc8=
79593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d767=
6ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is =
this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/s=
cim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/pa=
sswordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF=
2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw=
&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.openid.net/<wbr>secevent/risc/event-type=
/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-=
<wbr>required&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https=
://idp.example.<wbr>com/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-ev=
ents or extensions have a different format. The same complaint about the or=
iginal stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-=
serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0=
fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;=
iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;i=
ss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://scim=
.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;=
aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&=
quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ht=
tps://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dn=
a5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymR=
QS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp=
;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/risc/<wbr>event-typ=
e/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0acco=
unt-credential-change-<wbr>required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=
=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=
=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.e=
xample.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://idp.example.<wbr>com/=E2=80=9C</a>,<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<wbr>passwordR=
eset&quot;:</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=
=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRes=
etExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed">https://example.com/scim/<wbr>event/passwordResetExt</a>&qu=
ot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempt=
s&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div=
><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I=
n the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follow=
s the old format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre><=
/div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">*OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note tha=
t this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>3d0c3cf797584=
bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d<wbr>30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">h=
ttps://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc8=
79593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"cremed">https://jhub.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d08641d767=
6ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=
=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_eve=
nt-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZm=
r9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">http://schemas.<wbr>openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/<wbr>event-type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credent=
ial-change-<wbr>required<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=
=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a hre=
f=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://idp.example.<wbr>c=
om/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:=
{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D<wbr>44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/=
event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/<wbr>p=
asswordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:=
5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u><=
/pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed singular event format =
recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to s=
earch the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop w=
hen no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over =
an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity C=
loud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC=
_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">w=
ww.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" =
type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">ric=
hanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline.</span><u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabel=
le Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roma=
n&#39;,serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"b=
order-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,1=
96,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-437778=
7755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644a=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span cla=
ss=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587=
76980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>S=
unday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_56834029377815=
61080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236=
456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_56834029377815610=
80m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456=
080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">r=
ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf=
.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-437=
7787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for mult=
iple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answers your question.<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">My=
 =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. Th=
e question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We sho=
uld opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that require more c=
omplexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for multiple event=
s in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely =
the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=
=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the ot=
her?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70=
,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195=
,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the=
 same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at differen=
t times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different=
 event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. =
Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately?=
 What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the signature i=
s over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently route sep=
arate events from a single token without either losing the ability to verif=
y the authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with =
every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expr=
essing different statements about the same transaction - RISC Password Rese=
t and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richann=
a]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new event att=
ributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure extension)=C2=A0<b=
r><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested a way to=
 support extensions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see pr=
oblems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I think it is=
 quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific profile=
s like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that making event sing=
ular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nest=
ed JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that m=
ultiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><o=
l start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more complex=
 structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the=
 majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb=
(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;bac=
kground-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantic=
s. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u>=
</u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"=
><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:i=
nitial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are related to the s=
ame logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs =
that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u><=
/li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:whit=
e;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">B =
is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;b=
ackground-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><=
u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u>=
</li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;backgro=
und-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Claim seman=
tics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the sam=
e claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then=
 I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profi=
les do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean=
 by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are already defined by th=
e spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Oracle Corpora=
tion, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDw=
MGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9m=
Z9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"c=
remed"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality o=
f events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a=
 plurality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be diffic=
ult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot=
;txn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate eve=
nts on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; o=
n the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to cor=
relate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SE=
T is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An imp=
lementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multip=
le events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one wa=
y and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating acro=
ss multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is some=
thing I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font=
-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<sp=
an class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301=
m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4=
026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;bo=
rder-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in =
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:=
white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In th=
at case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the defini=
tion of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOUL=
D define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For e=
xample, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single event=
 statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_5=
683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br><br>O=
n 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockq=
uote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;borde=
r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.=
8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background=
-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=
=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to sa=
y that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doe=
sn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine =
as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-43=
77787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil =
Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mai=
ling List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event]=
 Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a n=
umber of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence / Keepi=
ng Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensions should be h=
andled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and more importan=
tly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates =
potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. Th=
e current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON pa=
yloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>General extensions=
<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related =
to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not =
want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. =
We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might =
be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. M=
ultiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our RISC session w=
e discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discus=
sion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event=
 profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from diffe=
rent families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly differe=
nt things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases where it is =
not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.=C2=A0 There may =
not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are necessarily r=
eal=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably useful to be able =
to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one SET=
.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.=
<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multip=
le state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effect=
s). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to =
block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not want to expre=
ss multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<br><br>* We =
may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/sessi=
on cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are related=
 but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events =
Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separately,=
 then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure simi=
lar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides usefu=
l audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or=
 near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading archi=
tectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally raised=
 having an attribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your=
 concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_56834029=
37781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4=
026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_we=
b_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEg=
nwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg0=
0406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_=
msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
I_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mj=
jhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1=
_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.iet=
f.org/mail-<wbr>archive/web/id-event/current/<wbr>msg00140.html</span></a><=
br><br>The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to=
 figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and the=
 profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC ev=
ent be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity=
 Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib=
9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span=
 class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6=
958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&=
lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.ind=
ependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9m=
jjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvt=
HB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" tar=
get=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://<wbr>ww=
w.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" c=
lass=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a=
><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026=
5301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_568340293778156=
1080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364=
56080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" targ=
et=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@a=
mazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft =
of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events with=
in the same token, which introduces additional complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that=
 RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event=
 in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily =
support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per t=
oken that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I=
 propose striking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object c=
ontaining an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additiona=
l members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with =
this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_568=
3402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660=
703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;<wbr>4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363=
faa<wbr>d8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 145849=
6404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim=
.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-43777877558732=
08935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&=
gt;&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
ttps://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a=
>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Feeds/<wbr>5d7604516b1d0864=
1d7676ee7</span></a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:<w=
br>create&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e752=
1d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" cla=
ss=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/<wbr>Us=
ers/<wbr>44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &quot;nam=
e&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br=
><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thr=
ee use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event ext=
ension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 obj=
ect. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=
=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set rese=
mbling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in th=
e current spec). This has the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear=
 in the data structure that there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 even=
t, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my prop=
osed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful=
.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was bro=
ught up in the context of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft eve=
nt names to standardized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the ev=
ent transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn =
claim as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that re=
late to the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_568=
3402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660=
703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identit=
y Services<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>________=
_________<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span clas=
s=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877=
6980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587320=
8935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"=
cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-=
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or:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">https://urldefense.<wbr>proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
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CAg&amp;<wbr>c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5Y<wbr>TpkKY057SbK10&amp;=
r=3D<wbr>JBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW<wbr>wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3D<wbr>s5by=
Be5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5<wbr>JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3D<wbr>X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAe=
ZhXpR3eVI0I58<wbr>ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br><br><br><br>________=
______________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a=
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derline" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
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ed"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo=
/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><div style=
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ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
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vent mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pu=
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iv></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
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</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_5=
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<u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
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Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
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serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div=
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st</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
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ed">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ie=
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quote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c111b060111a2055cf2b08c--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:45:02 -0700
Message-ID: <CAD9ie-skjDMvEB2s5RkSwvugKXypuV-YLjam+gmZGOOKmQVHzA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Per my earlier message, a receiver will often be receiving events from
multiple transmitters for the same subject. The receiver will already need
a mechanism to correlate events on the same subject, A transmitter may have
different services issuing SETs that are tied to the same event, and have
the same transaction, but are transmitted separately.

Will this not be the case? Given this, a receiver MUST be doing correlation
across SETs.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type=
).  The
>> current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>>
>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It
>> currently states:
>>
>> events
>>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statement=
s
>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>       multiple logical events.
>>
>>
>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for
>> multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familitie=
s)
>> needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force
>> multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET=
 to
>> be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver
>> gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environmen=
t
>> at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a =
common state
>> database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>
>
> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
> events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receive=
rs
> have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
> unrelated to this proposal.
>
>
>
>>
>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex,
>> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts=
.
>>
>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>>
>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
>> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft
>> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
>> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
>> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs
>> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another
>> scenario that they have to support.
>>
>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not su=
pport
>> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:
>>
>>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the
>>    single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use=
 case.
>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and
>>       the transmitter bundled them together because they were going to t=
he same
>>       receiver.
>>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more infor=
mation
>>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>
>> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman,
>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
>> id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the
>> recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have=
 to
>> correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information
>> about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive
>> one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D fields, with
>> no correlation over time then required.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>
>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extension=
s
>> of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think
>> this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and a=
s
>> with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it d=
oes
>> not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions.
>> There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by th=
e
>> profile that created the event format to start off with.
>>
>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not sur=
e
>> why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event=
 is
>> well defined with
>>
>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>
>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in
>> one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events a=
s a
>> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
>> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as =
in
>> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
>> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of
>> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simp=
ler
>> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a URI=
 as
>> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
>> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primar=
y
>> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, whi=
ch
>> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>
>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
>> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing
>> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>
>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>    "event": {
>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>          "extensions": {
>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>            }
>>          }
>>        }
>> }
>>
>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
>> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  I=
t
>> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
>> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the
>> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
>> signatures.
>>
>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but
>> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dick
>> Hardt
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
>> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in
>> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>
>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>
>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver
>> must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correla=
ted
>> events in the same SET.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
>> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mo=
mentum.  I
>> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken=
.
>>
>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
>> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the s=
et
>> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to=
 a
>> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csec=
ondary=E2=80=9D events, with different
>> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated,=
 adding no
>> actual value.
>>
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
>> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>=
;
>> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
>> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on
>> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While som=
e
>> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not=
,
>> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>
>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it i=
s
>> important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety =
of
>> profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
>> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
>> and not be included in SecEvent.
>>
>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups
>> profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>
>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
>> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the =
SET.
>>
>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
>> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Befor=
e
>> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the des=
ign
>> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>
>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
>> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we w=
ill
>> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>>
>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and
>> we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still =
a
>> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for some=
one
>> to work with.
>>
>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting=
,
>> and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
>> documents in a timely manner.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with th=
e recent
>> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve =
been at
>> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
>> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over=
 a year and
>> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for=
 me =E2=80=93 ship
>> it!=E2=80=9D
>>
>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus po=
sitions
>> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholes=
ale
>> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we=
 start
>> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does=
 something
>> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can re=
ly on it.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID
>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Inline...
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Phil
>>
>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>>
>>
>>
>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-=
2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymR=
QS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>ac=
count-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> and an SCIM profile event
>>
>>
>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
>> the other does not make sense.
>>
>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
>> not mean others are not valid.
>>
>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
>> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
>> different events.
>>
>>
>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
>> events in one SET.
>>
>>
>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
>> event
>>
>>
>>
>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>>
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>    "event": {
>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>        }
>> }
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/sec
>> event/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.ne=
t_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DD=
wMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&=
s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
>> ",
>>    "event": {
>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>        }
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>
>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
>> the proposal in JSON.
>>
>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Doe=
s
>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management =
system
>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store fo=
r
>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has =
an
>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OI=
DC.
>>
>>
>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "events": {
>>
>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>
>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>
>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF=
2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefe=
rence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own conte=
xt if that matters.
>>
>>
>>
>> *The new proposal:*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRe=
set=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>
>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ris=
c_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0=
zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>
>>      }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same=
 complaint about the original stands.
>>
>>
>>
>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to =
a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-C=
XSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>
>>         {
>>
>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>           }
>>
>>         }
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fo=
llows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>
>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this =
leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-C=
XSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwor=
dReset=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/p=
asswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>
>>         }
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and i=
s 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the documen=
t for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Ce=
vent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Replies inline.
>>
>> --
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> I hope this answers your question.
>>
>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why no=
t. The question should
>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semanti=
cs and is easier
>> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use case=
s
>> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>
>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, som=
e
>> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>
>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  =
A
>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  =
Do
>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems o=
n the
>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different e=
vent
>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if
>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is
>> gained in combining them?
>>
>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single tok=
en
>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the even=
t
>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any eve=
nt
>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>
>>
>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
>> out.[/richanna]
>>
>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>
>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. Fo=
r
>> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
>> potentially conflicting.
>> [richanna]
>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>
>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>
>>
>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>
>>
>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>
>>
>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap =
to
>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring =
to event
>> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Phil:
>>
>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>> required in SET.
>>
>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlat=
e
>> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
>> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>
>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
>> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>
>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer =
we
>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>
>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>
>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
>> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>         Yaron
>>
>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>
>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thin=
k things
>> are fine as-is.
>>
>>                                                                  -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Annabelle,
>>
>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>
>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>
>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payl=
oad
>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows=
 a
>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each h=
ave
>> independent structure.
>>
>> General extensions
>>
>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to an=
y
>> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want=
 to
>> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We ca=
n
>> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
>> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son
>> to rule this out.
>>
>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>> single family like RISC)
>>
>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC event=
s
>> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We di=
d
>> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule o=
ut
>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>
>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>
>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilit=
ies):
>>
>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logou=
t &
>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>
>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effect=
s).
>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM l=
ist
>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  =
IOW
>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not ma=
ke
>> this true for other profiles.
>>
>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re
>> related but express different data.
>>
>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>> Transaction
>>
>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled a=
s
>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99=
m not sure
>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>
>> Previous Discussion
>>
>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. Se=
e:
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJw=
OQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7=
bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>
>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and t=
he
>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>> event be expressed at a time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>> >
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in th=
e OIDF
>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, a=
nd replacing it
>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (=
singular):
>>
>>     event
>>
>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>
>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>>     mind:
>>
>>     {
>>
>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>
>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>
>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>
>>        "aud": [
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>        ],
>>
>>        "event": {
>>
>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>
>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
9
>> ",
>>
>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>
>>        }
>>
>>     }
>>
>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>
>>     **
>>
>>     *Extensions*
>>
>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D
>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>
>>     *Aliases*
>>
>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>
>>     *Related Events*
>>
>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>
>>     --
>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Id-event mailing list
>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg
>> aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE
>> ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFS
>> ibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
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>


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<div dir=3D"ltr">Per my earlier message, a receiver will often be receiving=
 events from multiple transmitters for the same subject. The receiver will =
already need a mechanism to correlate events on the same subject, A transmi=
tter may have different services issuing SETs that are tied to the same eve=
nt, and have the same transaction, but are transmitted separately.<div><br>=
</div><div>Will this not be the case? Given this, a receiver MUST be doing =
correlation across SETs.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t real=
ly have multiple events (at least of the same type).=C2=A0 The current spec=
 can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Not=
e that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.=C2=A0 It =
currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768m_5683402937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-coll=
apse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wra=
p:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cl=
oud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.independentid.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_=
4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-inte=
rchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561=
080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile =
guarantees that such related events will always be included in the same SET=
, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple event=
s per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they have to su=
pport.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=
=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not suppor=
t multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u=
></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">Multiple event support results in a more complex structure =
for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority u=
se case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778=
1561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics.=
 The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></=
u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0=
in"><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></=
li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_413440076320=
6086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<=
u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Ms=
oListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li>=
<li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tran=
smitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver.=
<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937=
781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim semantics become harder to =
define, as different profiles may want to use the same claims in different =
ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778156=
1080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be verified without ha=
ving the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to =
more information necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify auth=
enticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services=
<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;bo=
rder-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></=
b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wedne=
sday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span clas=
s=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" cl=
ass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">ri=
channa@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206=
086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>RE: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer o=
ver the recipient.=C2=A0 In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipien=
ts to have to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing i=
nformation about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to=
 receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768_m_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span=
></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt=
 [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b=
r><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>T=
o:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@micr=
osoft.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Maili=
ng List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your com=
ments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The example is how to ha=
ve a predefined extension point for extensions of a specific event, it is n=
ot how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly complicated. Ev=
ents should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON formats, t=
he receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, which let&#39;=
s new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be any confl=
ict as extensions should only be done by the profile that created the event=
 format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much=
 harder to code against. I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in his exampl=
e. Per the event, the type of the event is well defined with=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;=
color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https:/=
/example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">https:=
//example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&q=
uot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is about reasons for multiple =
events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to=
 sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I think we have=
 decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the transmitter ov=
er the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Given t=
hat, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing t=
he receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so=
 it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate event=
s with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experi=
ence.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-styl=
e:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed s=
yntax, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=A0 The way I se=
e it, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a seco=
ndary passwordResetExt data structure, which could have been simply another=
 event value in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change makes the data stru=
ctures more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes things that used to =
be possible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who would use the spe=
c.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf79=
7584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot=
;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52=
461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d760=
4516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;:=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt<=
/a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;:=
 {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&=
quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/password=
ResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events sh=
aring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=A0 I=
t forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related eve=
nts (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recip=
ients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not=
 every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndC=
ompose" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_=
5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me to a pr=
oposal that has a &quot;primary&quot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I a=
gree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussio=
ns so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal =
is that there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than on=
e event per SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving corr=
elated events in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-lef=
t-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" =
type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear=
 you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at different =
times.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.=
=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were=
 taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">I should note that I have specific technical objections to the speci=
fic proposed changes being discussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently all events in=
 the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I understand them, r=
evert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two class=
es.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual valu=
e.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:=
</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail=
.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076=
3206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377815610=
80Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br>=
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a=
>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778156108=
0Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look closely at =
a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on =
only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some o=
f the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not, an=
d we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is=
 a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to ensur=
e that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of profiles to adopt,=
 and that the semantics make sense. I also think that properties that are s=
pecific to a profile should be left to that profile and not be included in =
SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as dif=
ferent groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of issu=
es in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET.<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number=
 of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there was consensus. =
Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the=
 design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to =
taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues in SE=
T and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need to wai=
t for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also ha=
ve a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don&#39;t =
have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of =
documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work w=
ith.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the las=
t IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize =
all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-widt=
h:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt=
 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration =
with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=
=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep tryin=
g to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=
=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said =
some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=
=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus positions tha=
t have been debated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesa=
le changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=
=99s far better than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start=
 redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It d=
oes something simple and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, =
so people can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_4134400763206086768_m_5683402937781=
561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1=
pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From=
:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span cl=
ass=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377=
81561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 P=
M<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hard=
t@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41=
34400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>=
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Ri=
chard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt=
;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct=
 me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwM=
FaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/eve=
nt-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap=
">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetE=
xt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;m suggesting that two =
different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make se=
nse.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;=
It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not me=
an others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping proposals th=
at have different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference f=
rom issuing a single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distin=
ct events in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-to=
p:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have eve=
nt_type be at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed form=
at.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-botto=
m:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf7975=
84bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;=
iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot=
;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</=
a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&qu=
ot;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/=
scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.=
com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7=
521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot=
;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.=
com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d760451=
6b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&=
quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3=
A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dcha=
nge-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr=
9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKg=
UCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.=
net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</=
a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.co=
m/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>&quot;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"b=
order-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks for the comments=
. I think we need to examine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension mec=
hanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does it f=
ollow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use c=
ase where we have an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCI=
M system is also the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password re=
set might generate the following event which has an extension (conveying re=
set count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might b=
e important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd19=
3bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d5246=
1fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.e=
xample.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordRese=
t&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&quot;},<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &=
quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ris=
c_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Diy=
VnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9=
tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o=
penid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=
=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://=
idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr=
>/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each =
payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by the transm=
itter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that matters.=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pr=
e></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb=
1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;ia=
t&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss=
&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5=
bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.exam=
ple.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>=
scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<w=
br>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt=
;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetE=
xt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwM=
FaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/eve=
nt-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-=
change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</=
span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. =
The same complaint about the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RIS=
C more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &=
quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.exa=
mple.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&qu=
ot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-25=
5C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF=
2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw=
&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134=
400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/sec=
event/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u=
></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above,=
 the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old fo=
rmat (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<=
wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;=
: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;:=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344=
00763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s=
/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d76045=
16b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\<=
/a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uire=
d<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.examp=
le.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr=
>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:=
{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd=
6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/=
event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>=
com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
resetAttempts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed=
 singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the pars=
er has to continue to search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t th=
ere as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found ra=
ther than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp=
;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0=
zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4=
Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41=
34400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hun=
t@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite=
"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, An=
nabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline=
.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div s=
tyle=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:=
rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_413440076320608676=
8m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134=
400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769=
80246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sund=
ay, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b=
>Cc:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587=
3208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman=
, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>=
&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answers your ques=
tion.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reaso=
n why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgro=
und-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singul=
ar =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to pro=
cess. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that re=
quire more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for mu=
ltiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of the =
reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements abou=
t largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC passwo=
rd reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement =
to the other?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these even=
ts in the same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at=
 different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different s=
ystems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over =
different event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a r=
eceiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events se=
parately? What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,7=
0,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the sig=
nature is over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently r=
oute separate events from a single token without either losing the ability =
to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the S=
ET with every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multiple events paylo=
ads expressing different statements about the same transaction - RISC Passw=
ord Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new e=
vent attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure extension)=
=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested =
a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now. If yo=
u see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I thi=
nk it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific=
 profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that making ev=
ent singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (anot=
her nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Way=
s that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more=
 complex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agre=
e is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;c=
olor:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial ini=
tial;background-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous =
semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean an=
y of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bot=
tom:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are relate=
d to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from diffe=
rent SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-=
color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial=
 initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases for one anothe=
r.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);back=
ground-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:in=
itial initial">They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u><=
/u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:whi=
te;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">C=
laim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to u=
se the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 a=
bove, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new E=
vent profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple even=
ts.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure wha=
t you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are already def=
ined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Orac=
le Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7p=
DsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&am=
p;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400=
763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206=
086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality of =
events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a p=
lurality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be difficul=
t for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot;t=
xn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate event=
s on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on =
the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to corre=
late multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET =
is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An imple=
mentor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple=
 events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way =
and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating across=
 multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is someth=
ing I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span=
 class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</spa=
n></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034=
9644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-widt=
h:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt=
 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that case, let&#=
39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the &q=
uot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the a=
llowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some p=
rofiles may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br=
><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776=
980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<b=
r><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;bac=
kground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much o=
f Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles=
 to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 Th=
at doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think things are=
 fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<b=
r><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounce=
s@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, Oct=
ober 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing Lis=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* R=
e: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><=
br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Indepen=
dence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extension=
s should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and =
more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-sc=
hema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity=
 later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or=
 more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>Gener=
al extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions=
 not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD,=
 I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general pu=
rpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additiona=
l data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I se=
e no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different Fa=
milies (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our R=
ISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SE=
T. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discus=
s other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-even=
ts from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing sli=
ghtly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases=
 where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.=C2=
=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are=
 necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably usef=
ul to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profi=
les in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session=
 cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as =
causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes m=
ultiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=
=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node deli=
very system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would =
not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not w=
ant to express multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<=
br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events=
 are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From Sim=
ilar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent=
 separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to=
 ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn pr=
ovides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be use=
d in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-thr=
eading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I origi=
nally raised having an attribute to designate primary event attribute to al=
leviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxur=
uib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www=
.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span><=
/a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377=
787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034964=
4apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_curr=
ent_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGl=
K9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6=
r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<w=
br>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I interpreted it=
 is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has f=
or each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to li=
mit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Ora=
cle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independentid<br=
><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.i=
ndependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK=
9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwS=
vtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&a=
mp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-=
2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKk=
fCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
ttp://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5=
683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</s=
pan></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET s=
pec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same =
token, which introduces additional complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for=
 ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SE=
T, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support th=
e handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that =
people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose s=
triking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D cla=
im from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wi=
th the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular)=
:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing =
an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 repr=
esenting a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this ch=
ange<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69=
58776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<=
br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba6=
5d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot=
;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_41344=
00763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102653=
01m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&=
quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/F=
eeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b=
7754</span></a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&=
quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.exam=
ple.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;=
: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &=
quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &=
quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&qu=
ot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the wor=
king group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by t=
his proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ca=
ses, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be =
defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach wo=
uld be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has =
the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure tha=
t there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more exten=
sions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is =
primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be=
 fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Ali=
ases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of m=
igrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized ev=
ent names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmi=
t two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name=
 and another using the new name.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlati=
ng<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical even=
t.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabe=
lle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services=
<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026=
5301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134=
400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265=
301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034=
9644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp=
;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn=
8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://url=
defense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_=
listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe=
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s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3<wbr>eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br=
><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
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 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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mp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4=
wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</=
span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><b=
r>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing =
list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_li=
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K9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4=
zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
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olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
<br><br clear=3D"all"></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=
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ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-=
serif">--<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787=
755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
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>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-=
3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB=
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or:purple">HARDTWARE</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340=
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ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span =
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olor:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP=
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4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhc<wbr>Fsj-2tDkn31Auxuru=
ib9KATkRlQG1i<wbr>w&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUG<wbr>u4zbhcW001fK02EX=
s&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>_________________</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><spa=
n style=3D"background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backg=
round-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list</span><br></span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
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on:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:ini=
tial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__w=
ww.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaT<wbr>X4anNZfzX7pDsfK5=
f0h9mZ9CZkkGie<wbr>c&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHK<wbr>p-MJ20ui2nm46QS=
z0&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b=
r clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561=
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oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
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gD3Np0vyhLdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;t=
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ype=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" styl=
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fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-=
2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&=
amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6=
MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfh=
VRzwc&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint=
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7Wl2cYBe-Gg1<wbr>DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div=
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CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV=
9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
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0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"=
><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></div></div>=
<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
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?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:46:53 -0700
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design.
The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However
multiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 =
the
example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.

A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have
two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version
that they understand and ignore the one they don't.

I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to it
being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.

Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantics
between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other
ways to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple
representations of the same event?

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type=
).  The
>> current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>>
>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It
>> currently states:
>>
>> events
>>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statement=
s
>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>       multiple logical events.
>>
>>
>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for
>> multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familitie=
s)
>> needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force
>> multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET=
 to
>> be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver
>> gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environmen=
t
>> at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a =
common state
>> database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>
>
> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
> events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receive=
rs
> have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
> unrelated to this proposal.
>
>
>
>>
>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex,
>> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts=
.
>>
>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>>
>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
>> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft
>> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
>> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
>> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs
>> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another
>> scenario that they have to support.
>>
>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not su=
pport
>> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:
>>
>>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the
>>    single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use=
 case.
>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and
>>       the transmitter bundled them together because they were going to t=
he same
>>       receiver.
>>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more infor=
mation
>>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>
>> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman,
>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
>> id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the
>> recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have=
 to
>> correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information
>> about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive
>> one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D fields, with
>> no correlation over time then required.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>
>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extension=
s
>> of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think
>> this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and a=
s
>> with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it d=
oes
>> not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions.
>> There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by th=
e
>> profile that created the event format to start off with.
>>
>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not sur=
e
>> why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event=
 is
>> well defined with
>>
>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>
>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in
>> one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events a=
s a
>> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
>> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as =
in
>> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
>> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of
>> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simp=
ler
>> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a URI=
 as
>> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
>> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primar=
y
>> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, whi=
ch
>> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>
>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
>> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing
>> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>
>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>    "event": {
>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>          "extensions": {
>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>            }
>>          }
>>        }
>> }
>>
>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
>> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  I=
t
>> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
>> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the
>> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
>> signatures.
>>
>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but
>> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dick
>> Hardt
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
>> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in
>> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>
>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>
>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver
>> must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correla=
ted
>> events in the same SET.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
>> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mo=
mentum.  I
>> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken=
.
>>
>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
>> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the s=
et
>> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to=
 a
>> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csec=
ondary=E2=80=9D events, with different
>> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated,=
 adding no
>> actual value.
>>
>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
>> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>=
;
>> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
>> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on
>> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While som=
e
>> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not=
,
>> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>
>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it i=
s
>> important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety =
of
>> profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that
>> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile
>> and not be included in SecEvent.
>>
>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups
>> profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>
>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
>> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the =
SET.
>>
>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
>> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Befor=
e
>> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the des=
ign
>> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>
>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
>> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we w=
ill
>> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>>
>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and
>> we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still =
a
>> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for some=
one
>> to work with.
>>
>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meeting=
,
>> and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the
>> documents in a timely manner.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with th=
e recent
>> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve =
been at
>> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
>> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for over=
 a year and
>> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for=
 me =E2=80=93 ship
>> it!=E2=80=9D
>>
>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus po=
sitions
>> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing wholes=
ale
>> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if we=
 start
>> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It does=
 something
>> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can re=
ly on it.
>>
>>                                                        -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
<
>> richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID
>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Inline...
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Phil
>>
>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>>
>>
>>
>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-=
2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymR=
QS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>ac=
count-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> and an SCIM profile event
>>
>>
>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in
>> the other does not make sense.
>>
>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does
>> not mean others are not valid.
>>
>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not
>> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
>> different events.
>>
>>
>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct
>> events in one SET.
>>
>>
>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
>> event
>>
>>
>>
>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>>
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>    "event": {
>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>        }
>> }
>>
>> {
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>   "aud": [
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>    ],
>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/sec
>> event/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.ne=
t_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3DD=
wMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&=
s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
>> ",
>>    "event": {
>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>        }
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>
>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
>> the proposal in JSON.
>>
>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Doe=
s
>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>
>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management =
system
>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store fo=
r
>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has =
an
>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OI=
DC.
>>
>>
>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "events": {
>>
>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>
>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>
>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF=
2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>
>>   }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without prefe=
rence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own conte=
xt if that matters.
>>
>>
>>
>> *The new proposal:*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordRe=
set=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>
>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ris=
c_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0=
zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>
>>        }
>>
>>      }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The same=
 complaint about the original stands.
>>
>>
>>
>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to =
a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-C=
XSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>
>>         {
>>
>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>
>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>
>>           }
>>
>>         }
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It fo=
llows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>
>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this =
leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>
>>
>>
>> {
>>
>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>
>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>
>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>
>>   "aud": [
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>    ],
>>
>>    "event": {
>>
>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/ri=
sc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-C=
XSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>
>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>
>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwor=
dReset=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>
>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/p=
asswordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>
>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>
>>         }
>>
>>       }
>>
>>    }
>>
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and i=
s 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the documen=
t for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Ce=
vent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Replies inline.
>>
>> --
>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>> Identity Services
>>
>>
>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> I hope this answers your question.
>>
>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why no=
t. The question should
>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semanti=
cs and is easier
>> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use case=
s
>> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>
>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good, som=
e
>> not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>
>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  =
A
>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  =
Do
>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems o=
n the
>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different e=
vent
>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if
>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is
>> gained in combining them?
>>
>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single tok=
en
>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the even=
t
>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any eve=
nt
>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>
>>
>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point them
>> out.[/richanna]
>>
>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>
>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. Fo=
r
>> one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
>> potentially conflicting.
>> [richanna]
>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>
>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>
>>
>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as
>>       if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>
>>
>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may
>>    want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>
>>
>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap =
to
>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring =
to event
>> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Phil:
>>
>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>> required in SET.
>>
>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlat=
e
>> multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will
>> certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating
>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>
>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same
>> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>
>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer =
we
>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>
>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>
>> /Dick
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>
>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and
>> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>         Yaron
>>
>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>
>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thin=
k things
>> are fine as-is.
>>
>>                                                                  -- Mike
>>
>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>> Hunt
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>
>> Annabelle,
>>
>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>
>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>
>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payl=
oad
>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows=
 a
>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each h=
ave
>> independent structure.
>>
>> General extensions
>>
>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to an=
y
>> specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want=
 to
>> block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We ca=
n
>> also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be
>> required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son
>> to rule this out.
>>
>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>> single family like RISC)
>>
>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC event=
s
>> in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We di=
d
>> not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule o=
ut
>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>
>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>
>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilit=
ies):
>>
>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logou=
t &
>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>
>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effect=
s).
>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=
=9D would be
>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM l=
ist
>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.  =
IOW
>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not ma=
ke
>> this true for other profiles.
>>
>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re
>> related but express different data.
>>
>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>> Transaction
>>
>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn)
>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled a=
s
>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99=
m not sure
>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>
>> Previous Discussion
>>
>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary
>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. Se=
e:
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJw=
OQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>
>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7=
bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>
>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and t=
he
>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>> event be expressed at a time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>
>> @independentid
>>
>> www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzB=
TWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KA=
TkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>> >
>>
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>
>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexity
>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in th=
e OIDF
>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will
>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, a=
nd replacing it
>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (=
singular):
>>
>>     event
>>
>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a URI
>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members
>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>
>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this change
>>     mind:
>>
>>     {
>>
>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>
>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>
>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>
>>        "aud": [
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>
>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>
>>        ],
>>
>>        "event": {
>>
>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>
>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d=
9
>> ",
>>
>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>
>>        }
>>
>>     }
>>
>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot
>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>
>>     **
>>
>>     *Extensions*
>>
>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=
=E2=80=9D member
>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D
>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary
>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,
>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>
>>     *Aliases*
>>
>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,
>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>
>>     *Related Events*
>>
>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>
>>     --
>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>
>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the c=
urrent design. The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical e=
vent. However multiple systems may have different representations of the ev=
ent =E2=80=93 the example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and =
one for SCIM.<div><br></div><div>A good analogy is email. You send a single=
 logical email, which may have two representations, HTML and plain text. Sy=
stems can consume the version that they understand and ignore the one they =
don&#39;t.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m starting to regret the plural i=
n &quot;events&quot;, it was pluralized due to it being an array, not becau=
se it represented multiple logical events.</div><div><br></div><div>Annabel=
le, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantics between=
 the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other ways to re=
solve that without removing the ability for multiple representations of the=
 same event?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@go=
ogle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov =
1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple=
 events (at least of the same type).=C2=A0 The current spec can only have o=
ne instance of a URI (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec =
normatively does not support multiple event SETS.=C2=A0 It currently states=
:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340=
2937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-coll=
apse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wra=
p:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cl=
oud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http:/=
/www.independentid.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_=
7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</div><br class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-inte=
rchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile =
guarantees that such related events will always be included in the same SET=
, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple event=
s per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they have to su=
pport.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=
=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not suppor=
t multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u=
></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;mar=
gin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">Multiple event support results in a more complex structure =
for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority u=
se case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics.=
 The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></=
u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0=
in"><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></=
li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<=
u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ms=
oListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li>=
<li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tran=
smitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver.=
<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim semantics become harder to =
define, as different profiles may want to use the same claims in different =
ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be verified without ha=
ving the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to =
more information necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify auth=
enticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Bac=
kman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services=
<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;bo=
rder-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></=
b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wedne=
sday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span clas=
s=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" cl=
ass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">ri=
channa@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956=
833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>RE: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer o=
ver the recipient.=C2=A0 In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipien=
ts to have to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing i=
nformation about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to=
 receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span=
></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt=
 [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b=
r><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>T=
o:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@micr=
osoft.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.=
Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Maili=
ng List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your com=
ments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The example is how to ha=
ve a predefined extension point for extensions of a specific event, it is n=
ot how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly complicated. Ev=
ents should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON formats, t=
he receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, which let&#39;=
s new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be any confl=
ict as extensions should only be done by the profile that created the event=
 format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much=
 harder to code against. I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in his exampl=
e. Per the event, the type of the event is well defined with=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;=
color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https:/=
/example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">https:=
//example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&q=
uot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is about reasons for multiple =
events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to=
 sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I think we have=
 decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the transmitter ov=
er the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Given t=
hat, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing t=
he receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so=
 it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate event=
s with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experi=
ence.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-styl=
e:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed s=
yntax, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=A0 The way I se=
e it, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a seco=
ndary passwordResetExt data structure, which could have been simply another=
 event value in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change makes the data stru=
ctures more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes things that used to =
be possible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who would use the spe=
c.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf79=
7584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot=
;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b77=
54" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52=
461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d760=
4516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;:=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt<=
/a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;:=
 {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&=
quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/password=
ResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events sh=
aring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=A0 I=
t forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related eve=
nts (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recip=
ients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not=
 every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndC=
ompose" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span clas=
s=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span=
 class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_=
5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me to a pr=
oposal that has a &quot;primary&quot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I a=
gree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussio=
ns so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal =
is that there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than on=
e event per SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving corr=
elated events in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-lef=
t-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" =
type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear=
 you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at different =
times.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.=
=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were=
 taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">I should note that I have specific technical objections to the speci=
fic proposed changes being discussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently all events in=
 the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I understand them, r=
evert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two class=
es.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual valu=
e.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:=
</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converte=
d-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail=
.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694=
6956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815610=
80Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br>=
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a=
>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156108=
0Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a=
>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look closely at =
a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on =
only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some o=
f the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not, an=
d we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is=
 a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to ensur=
e that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of profiles to adopt,=
 and that the semantics make sense. I also think that properties that are s=
pecific to a profile should be left to that profile and not be included in =
SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as dif=
ferent groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of issu=
es in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET.<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number=
 of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there was consensus. =
Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the=
 design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to =
taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues in SE=
T and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need to wai=
t for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also ha=
ve a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don&#39;t =
have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of =
documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work w=
ith.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the las=
t IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize =
all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-widt=
h:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt=
 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration =
with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=
=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep tryin=
g to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=
=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said =
some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=
=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus positions tha=
t have been debated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesa=
le changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=
=99s far better than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start=
 redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It d=
oes something simple and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, =
so people can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781=
561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1=
pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From=
:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span cl=
ass=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 P=
M<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hard=
t@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74=
76346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>=
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Ri=
chard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt=
;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct=
 me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwM=
FaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/eve=
nt-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap=
">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetE=
xt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;m suggesting that two =
different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make se=
nse.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;=
It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not me=
an others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping proposals th=
at have different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference f=
rom issuing a single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distin=
ct events in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-to=
p:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have eve=
nt_type be at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed form=
at.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-botto=
m:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf7975=
84bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;=
iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot=
;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"ht=
tps://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</=
a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&qu=
ot;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/=
scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.=
com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7=
521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot=
;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.=
com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d760451=
6b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&=
quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3=
A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dcha=
nge-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr=
9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKg=
UCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.=
net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</=
a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.co=
m/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>&quot;=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"b=
order-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks for the comments=
. I think we need to examine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension mec=
hanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does it f=
ollow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use c=
ase where we have an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SCI=
M system is also the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password re=
set might generate the following event which has an extension (conveying re=
set count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might b=
e important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd19=
3bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d5246=
1fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.e=
xample.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordRese=
t&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&quot;},<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &=
quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ris=
c_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Diy=
VnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9=
tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o=
penid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=
=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://=
idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr=
>/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each =
payload is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by the transm=
itter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that matters.=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pr=
e></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb=
1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;ia=
t&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss=
&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5=
bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.exam=
ple.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>=
scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<w=
br>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt=
;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetE=
xt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwM=
FaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/eve=
nt-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-=
change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</=
span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. =
The same complaint about the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RIS=
C more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &=
quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.exa=
mple.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&qu=
ot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-25=
5C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF=
2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw=
&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476=
346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/sec=
event/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=
=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u=
></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above,=
 the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old fo=
rmat (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<=
wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;=
: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;:=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879=
593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763=
46946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s=
/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d76045=
16b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com=
/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sche=
mas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\<=
/a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uire=
d<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.examp=
le.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr=
>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:=
{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd=
6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/=
event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>=
com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
resetAttempts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed=
 singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the pars=
er has to continue to search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t th=
ere as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found ra=
ther than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle =
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp=
;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0=
zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4=
Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74=
76346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hun=
t@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite=
"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, An=
nabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline=
.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times=
 New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div s=
tyle=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:=
rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476=
346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769=
80246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sund=
ay, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick =
Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b=
>Cc:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587=
3208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman=
, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>=
&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</sp=
an></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answers your ques=
tion.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reaso=
n why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgro=
und-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singul=
ar =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to pro=
cess. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that re=
quire more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for mu=
ltiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of the =
reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing statements abou=
t largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC passwo=
rd reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement =
to the other?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these even=
ts in the same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at=
 different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different s=
ystems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over =
different event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a r=
eceiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events se=
parately? What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,7=
0,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the sig=
nature is over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently r=
oute separate events from a single token without either losing the ability =
to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing all information in the S=
ET with every system handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multiple events paylo=
ads expressing different statements about the same transaction - RISC Passw=
ord Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new e=
vent attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure extension)=
=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested =
a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now. If yo=
u see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I thi=
nk it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific=
 profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that making ev=
ent singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (anot=
her nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Way=
s that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more=
 complex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agre=
e is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;c=
olor:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial ini=
tial;background-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous =
semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean an=
y of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bot=
tom:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are relate=
d to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from diffe=
rent SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-=
color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial=
 initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases for one anothe=
r.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);back=
ground-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:in=
itial initial">They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u><=
/u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:whi=
te;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">C=
laim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to u=
se the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 a=
bove, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to ensure new E=
vent profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express multiple even=
ts.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure wha=
t you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those are already def=
ined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Orac=
le Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7p=
DsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&am=
p;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346=
946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.inde=
pendentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956=
833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality of =
events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a p=
lurality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be difficul=
t for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot;t=
xn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate event=
s on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on =
the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to corre=
late multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET =
is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An imple=
mentor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple=
 events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way =
and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating across=
 multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is someth=
ing I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span=
 class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</spa=
n></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034=
9644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-widt=
h:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt=
 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that case, let&#=
39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the &q=
uot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the a=
llowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some p=
rofiles may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br=
><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776=
980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<b=
r><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in=
 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;bac=
kground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much o=
f Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles=
 to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 Th=
at doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think things are=
 fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<b=
r><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounce=
s@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, Oct=
ober 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing Lis=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* R=
e: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><=
br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Indepen=
dence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extension=
s should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and =
more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-sc=
hema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to complexity=
 later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unload one or=
 more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br><br>Gener=
al extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions=
 not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD,=
 I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general pu=
rpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additiona=
l data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I se=
e no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different Fa=
milies (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our R=
ISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one SE=
T. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not discus=
s other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-even=
ts from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing sli=
ghtly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases=
 where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.=C2=
=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are=
 necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably usef=
ul to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profi=
les in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session=
 cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as =
causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes m=
ultiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=
=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node deli=
very system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would =
not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not w=
ant to express multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<=
br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a =
Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events=
 are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From Sim=
ilar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent=
 separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to=
 ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn pr=
ovides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be use=
d in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-thr=
eading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I origi=
nally raised having an attribute to designate primary event attribute to al=
leviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxur=
uib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www=
.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span><=
/a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377=
787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034964=
4apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoi=
nt.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_curr=
ent_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGl=
K9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6=
r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<w=
br>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I interpreted it=
 is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has f=
or each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to li=
mit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Ora=
cle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independentid<br=
><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.i=
ndependentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK=
9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwS=
vtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&a=
mp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-=
2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKk=
fCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
ttp://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5=
683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</s=
pan></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET s=
pec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same =
token, which introduces additional complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for=
 ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC will=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event in the SE=
T, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily support th=
e handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per token that =
people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose s=
triking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D cla=
im from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wi=
th the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular)=
:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing =
an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 repr=
esenting a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional members=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this ch=
ange<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69=
58776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<=
br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba6=
5d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot=
;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102653=
01m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&=
quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/F=
eeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b=
7754</span></a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&=
quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.exam=
ple.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;=
: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &=
quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exampl=
e.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab=
61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &=
quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&qu=
ot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the wor=
king group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by t=
his proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ca=
ses, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be =
defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach wo=
uld be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has =
the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure tha=
t there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more exten=
sions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is =
primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be=
 fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Ali=
ases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of m=
igrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized ev=
ent names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmi=
t two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name=
 and another using the new name.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlati=
ng<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens that relate to the same logical even=
t.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabe=
lle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services=
<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026=
5301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265=
301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034=
9644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp=
;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm=
5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn=
8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://url=
defense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_=
listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe=
4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KA<wbr>NnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFS<wbr>ibEc&amp;=
s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3<wbr>eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br=
><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-eve=
nt mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&a=
mp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4=
wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</=
span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><b=
r>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing =
list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"htt=
ps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_li=
stinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGl=
K9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4=
zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
<br><br clear=3D"all"></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-=
serif">--<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787=
755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
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>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-=
3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB=
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or:purple">HARDTWARE</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340=
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ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">__________________=
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erif"><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
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ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;c=
olor:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP=
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4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhc<wbr>Fsj-2tDkn31Auxuru=
ib9KATkRlQG1i<wbr>w&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUG<wbr>u4zbhcW001fK02EX=
s&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>_________________</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><spa=
n style=3D"background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backg=
round-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list</span><br></span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnq=
ZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;backg=
round-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:ini=
tial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__w=
ww.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaT<wbr>X4anNZfzX7pDsfK5=
f0h9mZ9CZkkGie<wbr>c&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHK<wbr>p-MJ20ui2nm46QS=
z0&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b=
r clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofp=
oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3Dwt=
gD3Np0vyhLdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
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m working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004=
cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urlde=
fense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-=
2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&=
amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6=
MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfh=
VRzwc&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<w=
br>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Di=
yVnrZmr9_uG<wbr>CQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_<wbr>w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM=
7Wl2cYBe-Gg1<wbr>DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
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CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV=
9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"=
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080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>mail list to learn about projects I =
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></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"=
><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></div></div>=
<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe =
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ted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2Vli=
wLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWAR=
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></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></span></div><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><=
u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<spa=
n class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX=
9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
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king on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></sp=
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888888"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!importa=
nt">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:i=
nline!important">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:=
normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255=
)"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
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;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7=
qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
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XwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgrou=
nd-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpct=
yXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNq<wbr>Zktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpE=
VKRa0qhl<wbr>o&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZ<wbr>uKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp=
;e=3D</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></font></span></div></blockquote>=
</div><br></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>__=
_______________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 14:54:45 -0700
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To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote=
:

> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design.
> The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However
> multiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=
=93 the
> example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>
> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have
> two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version
> that they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>

Yes, and I think this is well understood.



>
> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to i=
t
> being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>

I don't think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.



>
> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantic=
s
> between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other
> ways to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple
> representations of the same event?
>

The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct SETs,
if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though. Events
are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants the SCIM or
the RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in configuration
(there is a proposal how to capture that).

Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple
variants all at once?



>
> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same typ=
e).  The
>>> current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>>>
>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  I=
t
>>> currently states:
>>>
>>> events
>>>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statemen=
ts
>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT b=
e
>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>
>>>
>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) fo=
r
>>> multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familiti=
es)
>>> needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force
>>> multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SE=
T to
>>> be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receive=
r
>>> gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environme=
nt
>>> at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a=
 common state
>>> database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>>
>>
>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
>> events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receiv=
ers
>> have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
>> unrelated to this proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex,
>>> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflict=
s.
>>>
>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>>>
>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
>>> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draf=
t
>>> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
>>> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
>>> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SET=
s
>>> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another
>>> scenario that they have to support.
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport
>>> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:
>>>
>>>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for
>>>    the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majorit=
y use
>>>    case.
>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>>>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn)=
.
>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way,
>>>       and the transmitter bundled them together because they were going=
 to the
>>>       same receiver.
>>>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>>>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>>>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more info=
rmation
>>>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman,
>>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
>>> id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the
>>> recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to hav=
e to
>>> correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information
>>> about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receiv=
e
>>> one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D fields, with
>>> no correlation over time then required.
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com>]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>> <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>
>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for
>>> extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Mys=
elf,
>>> I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively stat=
ic,
>>> and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore propert=
ies
>>> it does not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as
>>> extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should only =
be
>>> done by the profile that created the event format to start off with.
>>>
>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not
>>> sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the
>>> event is well defined with
>>>
>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>
>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in
>>> one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events =
as a
>>> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
>>> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as=
 in
>>> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
>>> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt o=
f
>>> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is sim=
pler
>>> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a UR=
I as
>>> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <
>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
>>> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a prima=
ry
>>> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, wh=
ich
>>> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>
>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
>>> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducin=
g
>>> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>
>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>
>>> {
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>   "aud": [
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>    ],
>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>    "event": {
>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>          "extensions": {
>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {
>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>            }
>>>          }
>>>        }
>>> }
>>>
>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
>>> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  =
It
>>> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
>>> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces th=
e
>>> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
>>> signatures.
>>>
>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D set but
>>> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dick
>>> Hardt
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>> <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil
>>> Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
>>> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage i=
n
>>> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>
>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>
>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receive=
r
>>> must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correl=
ated
>>> events in the same SET.
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.co=
m>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
>>> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds m=
omentum.  I
>>> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were take=
n.
>>>
>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specific
>>> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the =
set
>>> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us t=
o a
>>> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cse=
condary=E2=80=9D events, with different
>>> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated=
, adding no
>>> actual value.
>>>
>>>                                                                 -- Mike
>>>
>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
>>> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com=
>;
>>> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
>>> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up o=
n
>>> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While so=
me
>>> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have no=
t,
>>> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>>
>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it
>>> is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a vari=
ety
>>> of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think t=
hat
>>> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profil=
e
>>> and not be included in SecEvent.
>>>
>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups
>>> profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>
>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
>>> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the=
 SET.
>>>
>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
>>> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Befo=
re
>>> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the de=
sign
>>> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>
>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
>>> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we =
will
>>> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>>>
>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and
>>> we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still=
 a
>>> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for som=
eone
>>> to work with.
>>>
>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF
>>> meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all=
 the
>>> documents in a timely manner.
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <
>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with t=
he recent
>>> attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=80=99ve=
 been at
>>> this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions
>>> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for ove=
r a year and
>>> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks fo=
r me =E2=80=93 ship
>>> it!=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus p=
ositions
>>> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing whole=
sale
>>> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if w=
e start
>>> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It doe=
s something
>>> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can r=
ely on it.
>>>
>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>
>>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>> <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID
>>> Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Inline...
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil
>>>
>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event=
-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymR=
QS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>ac=
count-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>
>>>
>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one i=
n
>>> the other does not make sense.
>>>
>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this doe=
s
>>> not mean others are not valid.
>>>
>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but no=
t
>>> the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with
>>> different events.
>>>
>>>
>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinc=
t
>>> events in one SET.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
>>> event
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>   "aud": [
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>    ],
>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>    "event": {
>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>        }
>>> }
>>>
>>> {
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>   "aud": [
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>    ],
>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/sec
>>> event/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=3D=
DwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w=
&s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
>>> ",
>>>    "event": {
>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>        }
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of
>>> the proposal in JSON.
>>>
>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Do=
es
>>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>>
>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity management=
 system
>>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store f=
or
>>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which has=
 an
>>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
>>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and O=
IDC.
>>>
>>>
>>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": [
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>    ],
>>>
>>>    "events": {
>>>
>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>
>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>
>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>
>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>
>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc=
_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>
>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>
>>>        }
>>>
>>>   }
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without pref=
erence by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own cont=
ext if that matters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The new proposal:*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": [
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>    ],
>>>
>>>    "event": {
>>>
>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordR=
eset=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>
>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>
>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>
>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>
>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ri=
sc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
I_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD=
0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&=
e=3D>
>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>
>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>
>>>        }
>>>
>>>      }
>>>
>>>    }
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The sam=
e complaint about the original stands.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads to=
 a triple nested structure.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": [
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>    ],
>>>
>>>    "event": {
>>>
>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/r=
isc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sch=
emas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-=
CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>
>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>
>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>
>>>         {
>>>
>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>
>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>
>>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>
>>>           }
>>>
>>>         }
>>>
>>>       }
>>>
>>>    }
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It f=
ollows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>
>>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that this=
 leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>
>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>
>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>
>>>   "aud": [
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>    ],
>>>
>>>    "event": {
>>>
>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/r=
isc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sch=
emas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN=
4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-=
CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>
>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>
>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>
>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwo=
rdReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>
>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>
>>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>>
>>>         }
>>>
>>>       }
>>>
>>>    }
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and =
is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the docume=
nt for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF=
_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Replies inline.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>> Identity Services
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>
>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why n=
ot. The question should
>>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular=
?
>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semant=
ics and is easier
>>> to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cas=
es
>>> that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>
>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good,
>>> some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>
>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset. =
 A
>>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other? =
 Do
>>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
>>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
>>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems =
on the
>>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different =
event
>>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Eve=
n if
>>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? Wha=
t value is
>>> gained in combining them?
>>>
>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single to=
ken
>>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the eve=
nt
>>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any ev=
ent
>>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>>
>>>
>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
>>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
>>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point the=
m
>>> out.[/richanna]
>>>
>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>
>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything.
>>> For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and
>>> potentially conflicting.
>>> [richanna]
>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>
>>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two
>>>    events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>
>>>
>>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing
>>>       as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>
>>>
>>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles
>>>    may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>
>>>
>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap=
 to
>>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring=
 to event
>>> names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9m=
Z9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Phil:
>>>
>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>>> required in SET.
>>>
>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to
>>> correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system
>>> will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlat=
ing
>>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>
>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the sam=
e
>>> subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds
>>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>
>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer=
 we
>>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>
>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>>
>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, an=
d
>>> MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this
>>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>         Yaron
>>>
>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>
>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I thi=
nk things
>>> are fine as-is.
>>>
>>>                                                                  -- Mik=
e
>>>
>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil
>>> Hunt
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>
>>> Annabelle,
>>>
>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>
>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>
>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event pay=
load
>>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allow=
s a
>>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each =
have
>>> independent structure.
>>>
>>> General extensions
>>>
>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to
>>> any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not
>>> want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose ite=
ms.
>>> We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data mi=
ght
>>> be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good
>>> reason to rule this out.
>>>
>>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>>> single family like RISC)
>>>
>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC
>>> events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a tim=
e.
>>> We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason t=
o rule out
>>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>
>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>
>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibili=
ties):
>>>
>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events
>>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Logo=
ut &
>>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>>
>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effec=
ts).
>>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be
>>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM =
list
>>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability. =
 IOW
>>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not m=
ake
>>> this true for other profiles.
>>>
>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events =
are
>>> related but express different data.
>>>
>>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>>> Transaction
>>>
>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn=
)
>>> would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled =
as
>>> repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=
=99m not sure
>>> it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed
>>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>
>>> Previous Discussion
>>>
>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primar=
y
>>> event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. S=
ee:
>>>
>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
il-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJ=
wOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>
>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
il-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>
>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and =
the
>>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC
>>> event be expressed at a time.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>
>>> @independentid
>>>
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independenti=
d.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVz=
BTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>> >
>>>
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>
>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexit=
y
>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in t=
he OIDF
>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC wil=
l
>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, =
and replacing it
>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):
>>>
>>>     event
>>>
>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a UR=
I
>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional member=
s
>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>
>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this chang=
e
>>>     mind:
>>>
>>>     {
>>>
>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>
>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>
>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>
>>>        "aud": [
>>>
>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>
>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>
>>>        ],
>>>
>>>        "event": {
>>>
>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>
>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/User
>>> s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>
>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]
>>>
>>>        }
>>>
>>>     }
>>>
>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that canno=
t
>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>
>>>     **
>>>
>>>     *Extensions*
>>>
>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextension=
s=E2=80=9D member
>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ceve=
nts=E2=80=9D
>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single primar=
y
>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion
>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.
>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text=
,
>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>
>>>     *Aliases*
>>>
>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event=
,
>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>
>>>     *Related Events*
>>>
>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>
>>>     --
>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>
>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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>>> Ec&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>
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EXs&e=3D>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">wdenniss=
@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current =
design. The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. H=
owever multiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=
=80=93 the example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for=
 SCIM.<div><br></div><div>A good analogy is email. You send a single logica=
l email, which may have two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems c=
an consume the version that they understand and ignore the one they don&#39=
;t.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and I think this is we=
ll understood.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m starting to regret the=
 plural in &quot;events&quot;, it was pluralized due to it being an array, =
not because it represented multiple logical events.</div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think this is the main concern or cause fo=
r confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Annabelle, I understand your con=
cerns regarding confusion of the semantics between the JSON syntax and the =
specification language. Are there other ways to resolve that without removi=
ng the ability for multiple representations of the same event?</div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>The argument is that multiple representatio=
ns can be sent as distinct SETs, if really needed. In practice this will ha=
ppen quite rare though. Events are created for a specific receiver, the rec=
eiver either wants the SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they should be able to =
specify that in configuration (there is a proposal how to capture that).</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver mu=
st receive multiple variants all at once?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-=
wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of=
 the same type).=C2=A0 The current spec can only have one instance of a URI=
 (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec normatively does not=
 support multiple event SETS.=C2=A0 It currently states:<div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683=
402937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span=
" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Co=
rporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div>=
<div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" class=3D"m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.c=
om</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com=
" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">r=
ichanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156108=
0WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-=
align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spa=
cing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile gu=
arantees that such related events will always be included in the same SET, =
then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple events =
per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they have to supp=
ort.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=
=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not support m=
ultiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u></=
u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin=
-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402=
937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple event support results in a more=
 complex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agre=
e is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mult=
iple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and =
B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a=
" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-31514459584510=
29318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and=
 B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they we=
re from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagrap=
h" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tra=
nsmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver=
.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim sema=
ntics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the sa=
me claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Eve=
nt authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. This forc=
es receivers to expose downstream systems to more information necessary, if=
 those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></=
ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#=
39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span =
class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 =
AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340=
2937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@am=
azon.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, =
&quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving=
 complexity to the issuer over the recipient.=C2=A0 In my view, it=E2=80=99=
s more complex for recipients to have to correlate and process a sequence o=
f multiple SETs providing information about the same logical event, and val=
idate N signatures, than to receive one SET with all the aspects of the log=
ical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over tim=
e then required.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></=
u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m=
_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</sp=
an></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b=
r><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5=
683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1=
, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jo=
nes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">ya=
ronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Ma=
iling List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Your comments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The example is h=
ow to have a predefined extension point for extensions of a specific event,=
 it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly complic=
ated. Events should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON fo=
rmats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, which =
let&#39;s new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be a=
ny conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile that created t=
he event format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI=
 is much harder to code against. I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in hi=
s example. Per the event, the type of the event is well defined with=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D=
"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/password=
ResetExt</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This =
thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in one set. You=
r mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a reason to a=
llow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a preference, we w=
ill push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use cases t=
here are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a receiver=
 to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as not a=
ll issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one event =
per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is challengi=
ng to implement, speaking from experience.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM=
, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none n=
one none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, p=
asted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=A0 The way I see it, hi=
s proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a secondary pa=
sswordResetExt data structure, which could have been simply another event v=
alue in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change makes the data structures m=
ore complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes things that used to be possi=
ble impossible, reducing flexibility to those who would use the spec.</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These =
seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193=
bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;i=
at&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quo=
t;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d=
52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&q=
uot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https=
://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d=
7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quo=
t;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/s=
cim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6a=
b61e7521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.=
com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/passwordResetExt</a>=
=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">In particu=
lar, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events sharing a commo=
n claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=A0 It forces the =
issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related events (or facet=
s of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipients to do t=
he extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</span><u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not every profil=
e will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set but ther=
e=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__=
MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event=
 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<s=
pan class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815610=
80Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.=
com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@am=
azon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@iet=
f.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><=
span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multipl=
e events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me to a proposal that has =
a &quot;primary&quot; and &quot;secondary&quot; events. I agree that is und=
esirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we ca=
n drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is that there is=
 one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event per SET =
adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in=
 one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div=
><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1=
pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort =
at different times.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort buil=
ds momentum.=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there when previous consensu=
s calls were taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note that I have specific technical objections =
to the specific proposed changes being discussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently a=
ll events in the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I unders=
tand them, revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for th=
e two classes.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no =
actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_=
5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesda=
y, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hu=
nt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sh=
effer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard B=
ackman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; I=
D Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u>=
</u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t=
 look closely at a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we =
are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very l=
ong. While some of the participants have been working on this for a while, =
many have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is i=
mportant to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of p=
rofiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that prop=
erties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and no=
t be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it is exp=
ected that as different groups profile it, there will be additional feedbac=
k.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a=
 number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to =
use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there hav=
e been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there =
was consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed=
 concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaini=
ng issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we w=
ill need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, an=
d we don&#39;t have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are sti=
ll a number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for so=
meone to work with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progres=
s since the last IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentu=
m and finalize all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017=
 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-=
style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,=
204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for =
me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to once=
 again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this f=
or multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that were=
 long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year=
 and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks f=
or me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justifica=
tion to try to undo consensus positions that have been debated and affirmed=
 over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes at this late date is =
counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough=
 as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning it, it will result =
in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something simple and useful.=
=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rely on it.</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a nam=
e=3D"m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-=
4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</s=
pan></a><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none=
;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in=
"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (=
IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sh=
effer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard B=
ackman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; M=
ike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a=
>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events p=
er SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dic=
k Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" =
type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misunder=
standing, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.op=
enid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l0=
9sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/r=
isc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre=
-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding o=
ne in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because =
you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just=
 picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but not the same=
) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with different eve=
nts.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I have stated this is very differen=
t from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I=
 think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as event<u></u=
><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working fr=
om Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.ex=
ample.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.exa=
mple.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a =
href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/=
Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&=
quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7=
521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.ex=
ample.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;au=
d&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https=
://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub=
.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot=
;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcred=
ential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8B=
v7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;=
m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiD=
ti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/=
account-<wbr>credential-change-required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,=
</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>&quot;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width=
:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt =
0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of t=
he proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is t=
he proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a =
recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=
=99s =C2=A0consider a use case where we have an identity management system =
that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for C=
onnect.=C2=A0 A Password reset might generate the following event which has=
 an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=
=C2=A0 BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM an=
d OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quo=
t;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exam=
ple.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =
&quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.ex=
ample.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.examp=
le.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d086=
41d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf=
:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f614=
2df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&quot;},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passw=
ordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetA=
ttempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dt=
ype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC=
Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCR=
jFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=
=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a =
href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer&=
#39; and issued without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can ass=
ign priority in its own context if that matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">The new proposal:<=
/span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot=
;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &q=
uot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<w=
br>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5=
},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype=
_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&a=
mp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6M=
D0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFa=
lhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;:=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5p=
t"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</=
span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. =
The same complaint about the original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RIS=
C more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &=
quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot=
;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example=
.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.co=
m/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d76=
76ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=
=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_eve=
nt-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZm=
r9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a><=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-cred=
ential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5=
pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A6=
56374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E=
2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;u=
rn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:</span><u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=
=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ce=
vents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordR=
esetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;=
resetAttempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}=
</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends.=
 It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">*OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=
=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3c=
f797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.=
com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;=
: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</=
a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=
=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dt=
ype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC=
Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCR=
jFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&q=
uot;<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%8=
0%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://id=
p.example.com<wbr>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ceve=
nt_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=
=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=
=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"http=
s://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/passwordRe=
setEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p=
re></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed singular event format r=
ecursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to se=
arch the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop wh=
en no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over a=
n array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cl=
oud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_=
w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><b=
r><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5=
pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 201=
7, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@am=
azon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline.</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle R=
ichard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#3=
9;,serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,2=
23);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6=
958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b=
>Date:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40=
26236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29=
, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6=
958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
/b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854=
861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt=
;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877558732089=
35m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events pe=
r SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">I hope this answers your question.<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=
=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question sh=
ould be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singula=
r?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D=
 claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for ea=
sier solutions unless there are use cases that require more complexity.[/ri=
channa]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;back=
ground-color:white">There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=
=A0 Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">1.=C2=A0 M=
ultiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *same*thing.=
 For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Eve=
nt and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=C2=A0 Do the=
y overlap or are they distinct? =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]=
Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is =
it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They a=
re likely being generated by different systems at different times on the tr=
ansmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=
=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different event streams. =
I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=
=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is g=
ained in combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;back=
ground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET an=
d not the event objects, Receivers independently route separate events from=
 a single token without either losing the ability to verify the authenticit=
y of the event or sharing all information in the SET with every system hand=
ling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-re=
peat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multiple events payloads expressing differen=
t statements about the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Sess=
ion Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above=
[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile defines new event attributes to be a=
dded on to an existing event type (a pure extension)=C2=A0<br><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support exte=
nsions within an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with i=
t, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I think it is quite valid =
to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC i=
f they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgr=
ound-color:white">I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifi=
es anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON struc=
ture) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70=
,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event=
 SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><ol start=3D"1"=
 type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;b=
ackground-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more complex structure fo=
r the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use=
 case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);=
background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repea=
t:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presen=
ce of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></=
li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D=
"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initia=
l;background-repeat:initial initial">They are related to the same logical e=
vent (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a c=
ommon txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,=
224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-=
repeat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">B is an extensi=
on of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224=
);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-rep=
eat:initial initial">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><l=
i class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;back=
ground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are=
 not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></o=
l><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:=
initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Claim semantics become h=
arder to define, as different profiles may want to use the same claims in d=
ifferent ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgr=
ound-color:white">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we=
 have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not ov=
erlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are=
 you referring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be =
URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Oracle Corporation, Identit=
y Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyX=
PpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&am=
p;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">ww=
w.independentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"=
cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 P=
M, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:He=
lvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality of events, you=
 use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a plurality of=
 events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font=
-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be difficult for a dis=
tributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot;txn&quot;, b=
ut the distributed system will certainly need to correlate events on the sa=
me subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; on the same su=
bject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to correlate multip=
le SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundan=
t, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An implementor may =
choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so=
 a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimiz=
e the code paths, and we will need to support correlating across multiple S=
ETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is something I misse=
d in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755=
873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><bloc=
kquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;bor=
der-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that case, let&#39;s add =
text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the &quot;event=
s&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed ev=
ent statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles m=
ay require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br><br>Than=
ks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-=
left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;m=
argin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial ini=
tial"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agre=
e with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for =
some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a single=
ton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I thi=
nk things are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208=
935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>=
org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 201=
7 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richann=
a@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID E=
vents Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id=
-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for m=
ultiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number of concern=
s with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payload=
s Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensions should be handled by profil=
es leads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on =
the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limita=
tions and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format=
 allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can=
 each have independent structure.<br><br>General extensions<br><br>The prop=
osal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any specific =
event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block th=
e ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can also anti=
cipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might be required. Eve=
n though there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to rule this=
 out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events f=
rom a single family like RISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we discussed expr=
essing multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that on=
ly one RISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=
=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-events from different families at=
 the SET level. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about =
the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which =
is the primary and which is the extension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear w=
inner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just=
 possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably useful to be able to express simla=
r/overlapping events from different SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For exam=
ple a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM m=
ay want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple state changes=
 in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effects). Having to ch=
ase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be ch=
allenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The S=
CIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capabil=
ity.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events=
 does not make this true for other profiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indica=
te a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/session cancellation is=
 expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 The events are related but express diffe=
rent data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from t=
he Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separately, then more trackin=
g of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not=
 mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis c=
apability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time sy=
stems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<br><br>P=
revious Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally raised having an attribu=
te to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this=
 was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265=
301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRl=
QG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr=
>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102653=
01m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ie=
tf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQ=
G1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00=
140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is u=
p to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for ea=
ch event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit t=
hat only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle C=
orporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independentid<br><br>=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indepe=
ndentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjh=
cFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0=
f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437=
7787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw=
&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:=
phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437=
7787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hun=
t@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richa=
nna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695=
8776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@a=
mazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft =
of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events with=
in the same token, which introduces additional complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the current consensus there is that=
 RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC events must be the only event=
 in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified ways to clearly and easily =
support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases for multiple events per t=
oken that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that context in mind, I=
 propose striking the definition of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim =
(singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object c=
ontaining an &quot;event_type&quot; member whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additiona=
l members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the Profiling Specification.<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with =
this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877558732=
08935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&qu=
ot;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548=
61410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr=
>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&qu=
ot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</sp=
an></a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a=
>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quo=
t;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br>=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&qu=
ot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: =
[&quot;id&quot;, &quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quo=
t;, &quot;emails&quot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cas=
es for SETs that cannot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? With=
in RISC, we identified three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions out=
lined below:<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the =
event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define a=
n =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of ev=
ent objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 making it clear in the data structure that there is a single pri=
mary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room=
 for confusion<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is=
 a primary event at all.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding somet=
hing like this to my proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus =
that it is broadly useful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case=
,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the lo=
gical event,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the =
new name.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SE=
T spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ind=
ependent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 --<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
36456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabel=
le Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<=
br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_________________<b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587320=
8935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301=
m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event=
@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854=
861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-=
3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjW=
wlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX=
8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://u=
rldefense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i<wbr>etf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2D<wbr>event&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW<wbr>HvlZYR8=
PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10<wbr>&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEiv<wbr>zjWwlN=
Ke4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANn<wbr>GVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSib<wbr>Ec&am=
p;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eV<wbr>I0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><=
br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-e=
vent mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-e=
vent@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWN=
y4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRl=
QG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>____________=
__________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR=
8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZN=
A&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802i=
MQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
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erted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><=
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nverted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
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span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
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lank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:p=
urple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
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wICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9=
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tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845102=
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ZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcF<wbr>sj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw<wbr>&amp;s=3DW=
rMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu<wbr>4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
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_____________________<wbr>_________________</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><span style=3D"background-color:w=
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1029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
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on:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,=
sans-serif;color:purple;background-color:white;background-position:initial =
initial;background-repeat:initial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<w=
br>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>=
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rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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I think that is a red herring.=20

The issue is a multipayload message may be needed (for many reasons already d=
iscussed) to convey one logical event.=20

An event from more than one txn are separate and distinct.=20

There may be cumulative conclusions but that is not in scope. =20

Breaking a single logical event across multiple sets is a different thing. I=
t requires multi part signaling for the receiver to know they have the compl=
ete message. More complexity in both delivery and set.=20

None of this is needed.=20

Phil

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Per my earlier message, a receiver will often be receiving events from mul=
tiple transmitters for the same subject. The receiver will already need a me=
chanism to correlate events on the same subject, A transmitter may have diff=
erent services issuing SETs that are tied to the same event, and have the sa=
me transaction, but are transmitted separately.
>=20
> Will this not be the case? Given this, a receiver MUST be doing correlatio=
n across SETs.=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=

>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type=
).  The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =20
>>>=20
>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It=
 currently states:
>>>> events
>>>>       The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statement=
s
>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>>       logical event that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT b=
e
>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>=20
>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for=
 multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) n=
eeding to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force multip=
le SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all o=
f the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.  A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>=20
>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate ev=
ents, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receivers ha=
ve to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is unrelated=
 to this proposal.
>>=20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, d=
eeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.
>>>=20
>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =20
>>>=20
>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts betw=
een profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft and obs=
erve the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (=
understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>=20
>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazo=
n.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be i=
ncluded in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyw=
ay, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario=
 that they have to support.
>>>> =20
>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are agai=
n:
>>>> Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the sing=
le event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two event=
s A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>> A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as i=
f they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>> A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>> A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tra=
nsmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver.=

>>>> Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different profile=
s may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>> Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. Th=
is forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information necessa=
ry, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle"=
 <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hu=
nt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>> =20
>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipien=
t.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to correlat=
e and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the sa=
me logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with al=
l the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with n=
o correlation over time then required.
>>>> =20
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>> =20
>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>> =20
>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensio=
ns of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think t=
his is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as wit=
h many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not=
 understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There s=
hould not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile t=
hat created the event format to start off with.
>>>> =20
>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not su=
re why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event i=
s well defined with=20
>>>> =20
>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>> =20
>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in o=
ne set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a r=
eason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a prefere=
nce, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use=
 cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a r=
eceiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as=
 not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one e=
vent per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is chall=
enging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com> wrote:
>>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this cha=
racteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary passw=
ordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which could h=
ave been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not l=
ess.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flex=
ibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {=

>>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>>            }
>>>>>          }
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>> =20
>>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events s=
haring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It for=
ces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related events (o=
r facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipients t=
o do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dick Ha=
rdt
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" ev=
ents. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the d=
iscussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiv=
er must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlat=
ed events in the same SET.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com> wrote:
>>>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort a=
t different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mome=
ntum.  I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were t=
aken.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specif=
ic proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the se=
t have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a=
 state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecond=
ary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99=
s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>                                                                 -- Mi=
ke
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Ma=
iling List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specifi=
cation until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3=
rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the parti=
cipants have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we are loo=
king for consensus across the WG.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel i=
t is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety=
 of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that p=
roperties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and n=
ot be included in SecEvent.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups pr=
ofile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number o=
f issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SE=
T.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of c=
hanges to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before the=
 WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the design of S=
ET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining i=
ssues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will n=
eed to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, a=
nd we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a=
 number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone=
 to work with.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meet=
ing, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the docu=
ments in a timely manner.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration wit=
h the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=
=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revis=
it decisions that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable=
 for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=
=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensu=
s positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancin=
g wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, i=
f we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  I=
t does something simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so p=
eople can rely on it.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabell=
e <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events=
 Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Inline...
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile ev=
ent=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credent=
ial-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding o=
ne in the other does not make sense.
>>>>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this d=
oes not mean others are not valid.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but=
 not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with d=
ifferent events.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple dist=
inct events in one SET.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level=
 as event
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",=

>>>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-typ=
e/account-credential-change-required",
>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"      =20
>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>=
 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequenc=
es of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extensi=
on mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does=
 it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity manag=
ement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data=
 store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event whi=
ch has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from R=
ISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and O=
IDC. =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>   }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without=
 preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own c=
ontext if that matters.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> The new proposal:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pass=
wordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>>>>    }   =20
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. Th=
e same complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this lead=
s to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secev=
ent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>         {=20
>>>>>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>>>>>>>>           }     =20
>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends.=
 It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>>>>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that t=
his leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secev=
ent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/e=
vent/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively=
 and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the do=
cument for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID E=
vents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason=
 why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D singular?
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer s=
emantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless=
 there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are go=
od, some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely t=
he *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A=
 RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  Do t=
hey overlap or are they distinct? =20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>>>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the=
 same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different=
 times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on t=
he receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is gained in combining them?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the eve=
nt objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event o=
r sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any event in=
 the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements abou=
t the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to a=
n existing event type (a pure extension)=20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an e=
vent body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point the=
m out.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited b=
y specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anyth=
ing. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and=
 potentially conflicting.=20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>>>>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use c=
ase, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two=
 events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>>>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>>>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>>>>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>>>>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles ma=
y want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to=
 establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to e=
liminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you ref=
erring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/ri=
channa]
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the w=
ord "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really req=
uired in SET.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to c=
orrelate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will c=
ertainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events o=
n the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on t=
he same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds c=
omplexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a singl=
e SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefe=
r we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support c=
orrelating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add t=
o the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statem=
ents, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require t=
his claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Ce=
vents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be tru=
e for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                               =
   -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf=
 Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SE=
T?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads=
 to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event=
 payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and c=
onflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a pa=
rser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have in=
dependent structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not rel=
ated to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would n=
ot want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items=
. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might=
 be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son to rule this out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events=
 from a single family like RISC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct R=
ISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time=
. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to r=
ule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile i=
s expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the pri=
mary and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just p=
ossibilities):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlappi=
ng events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel=
 Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing m=
ultiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple ef=
fects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system. =
  The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this c=
apability.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events=
 does not make this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed a=
nd a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re related but express different data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the S=
ame Transaction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.=
g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or ha=
ndled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=
=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distrib=
uted multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designa=
te primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accep=
ted. See:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00=
406.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00=
140.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the recei=
ver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI an=
d the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RIS=
C event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing mu=
ltiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional c=
omplexity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed t=
his in the OIDF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that=
 RISC will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET=
, having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful o=
f use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raise=
d. With
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of=
 the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Tok=
en spec, and replacing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D=
 claim (singular):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose valu=
e is a URI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specif=
ication.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain addition=
al members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with t=
his change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.c=
om/>",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b=
7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d767=
6ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6=
ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "=
emails"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs t=
hat cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified t=
hree use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the e=
vent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9C=
extensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advant=
age of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a sing=
le primary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for c=
onfusion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary even=
t at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my prop=
osed text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating c=
lients
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In thi=
s case,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logi=
cal event,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlati=
ng
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www=
.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQc=
xBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5b=
yBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58Z=
Fd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I a=
m working on!
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mj=
jhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001f=
K02EXs&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIr=
MUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0H=
aTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm4=
6QSz0&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uG=
CQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVR=
zwc&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am wor=
king on!
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am work=
ing on!
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am worki=
ng on!
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktc=
magv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&=
e=3D
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working o=
n!

--Apple-Mail-F443FA6E-E82E-4E66-8B42-43E3B96CCD6A
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I think that is a red herring.&nbsp;</=
div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">=
The issue is a multipayload message may be needed (for many reasons already d=
iscussed) to convey one logical event.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">An event from more than one tx=
n are separate and distinct.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">There may be cumulative conclusions but t=
hat is not in scope. &nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Breaking a single logical event across multiple=
 sets is a different thing. It requires multi part signaling for the receive=
r to know they have the complete message. More complexity in both delivery a=
nd set.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Apple=
MailSignature">None of this is needed.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On No=
v 1, 2017, at 2:45 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Per my earlier message, a receiver will often be rece=
iving events from multiple transmitters for the same subject. The receiver w=
ill already need a mechanism to correlate events on the same subject, A tran=
smitter may have different services issuing SETs that are tied to the same e=
vent, and have the same transaction, but are transmitted separately.<div><br=
></div><div>Will this not be the case? Given this, a receiver MUST be doing c=
orrelation across SETs.&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t really have multi=
ple events (at least of the same type).&nbsp; The current spec can only have=
 one instance of a URI (afaik). &nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec=
 normatively does not support multiple event SETS.&nbsp; It currently states=
:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402=
937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The spe=
c has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple s=
eparate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing to b=
e sent as a single message.&nbsp; It would be INSECURE to force multiple SET=
s because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be delivered=
 at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all of the=
 SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.&nbsp; A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to re=
ceive separate events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". B=
ut, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so=
 it is unrelated to this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div=
><br></div><div>If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a=
 complex, deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace con=
flicts.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it comp=
licating and limiting. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has v=
ery clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we s=
hould stay on track with the current draft and observe the normative text if=
 not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may d=
isagree).</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:b=
reak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_413440076320=
6086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services=
 Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYoYzRqgYsH8ncCxxgzdHBqE9w4ur8Pdzk3cKilubAFI&=
amp;s=3DuPU6CPHJDBPdjF750ou8zssBZ77PKSiqczKHpseINJE&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></d=
iv></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_413=
4400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_41=
34400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:</div><br class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-intercha=
nge-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Wo=
rdSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile guarantees=
 that such related events will always be included in the same SET, then the r=
eceiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple events per SET is j=
ust giving the receiver another scenario that they have to support.<u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99ve already p=
rovided several other reasons why we should not support multiple tokens per S=
ET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u></u><u></u></div><ol st=
art=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple ev=
ent support results in a more complex structure for the single event use cas=
e, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><l=
i class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">M=
ultiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A an=
d B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"=
a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are related to the sa=
me logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs th=
at have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m=
_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u><=
/u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagr=
aph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or v=
ice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377=
81561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are not actually related to one anothe=
r in any way, and the transmitter bundled them together because they were go=
ing to the same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_4134400=
763206086768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim seman=
tics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the same=
 claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be v=
erified without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downs=
tream systems to more information necessary, if those systems need to be abl=
e to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u>=
</u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'=
Times New Roman',serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;bor=
der-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 A=
M<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hard=
t@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293=
7781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [Id=
-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over t=
he recipient.&nbsp; In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to h=
ave to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing informati=
on about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive o=
ne SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 fields, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u></u><u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=
- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_4134400763206086768_m=
_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134=
400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wedn=
esday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b=
><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazo=
n.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple ev=
ents per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The examp=
le is how to have a predefined extension point for extensions of a specific e=
vent, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly com=
plicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON=
 formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, whic=
h let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be any c=
onflict as extensions should only be done by the profile that created the ev=
ent format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much h=
arder to code against. I'm not sure why Marius had that in his example. Per t=
he event, the type of the event is well defined with&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">"=
event_type": "</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</=
span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;colo=
r:rgb(80,0,80)">",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is about reasons for m=
ultiple events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not wan=
ting to sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I think w=
e have decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the transmitt=
er over the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Giv=
en that, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managin=
g the receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, s=
o it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate event=
s with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experie=
nce.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 20=
17 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;bord=
er-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt=
;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exac=
tly this characteristic.&nbsp; The way I see it, his proposal essentially ha=
s a primary passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data struct=
ure, which could have been simply another event value in the current draft.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This b=
reaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not less.&nbsp; A=
nd it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility=
 to those who would use the spec.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb=
1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.e=
xample.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d760451=
6b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://exampl=
e.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://exam=
ple.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"extensions": {</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/even=
t/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve=
<wbr>nt/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5,</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple r=
elated events sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the i=
ssuer.&nbsp; It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of th=
e related events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forc=
es the recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary sig=
natures.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_41344007=
63206086768_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp=
;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_413440=
0763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-eve=
nt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of=
<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_413440076320=
6086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Oct=
ober 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m=
_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; I=
D Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=
=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Plea=
se direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" events. I ag=
ree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussions=
 so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is tha=
t there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event pe=
r SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated even=
ts in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:n=
one none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear you on the fact that diffe=
rent people have joined the effort at different times.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a=
 normal process as an effort builds momentum.&nbsp; I get that not everyone w=
as there when previous consensus calls were taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note that I have spec=
ific technical objections to the specific proposed changes being discussed a=
s well.&nbsp; Currently all events in the set have the same syntax.&nbsp; Th=
e proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99=
s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with d=
ifferent syntax for the two classes.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s needlessly more co=
mplicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4=
134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span c=
lass=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778=
1561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM=
<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a=
>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;=
; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@i=
etf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400=
763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event]=
 Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you well kn=
ow, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specification until last cal=
l is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG=
 has not existed for very long. While some of the participants have been wor=
king on this for a while, many have not, and we are looking for consensus ac=
ross the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be pro=
filed, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are eas=
y for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I a=
lso think that properties that are specific to a profile should be left to t=
hat profile and not be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framew=
ork, it is expected that as different groups profile it, there will be addit=
ional feedback.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile o=
f SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at h=
ow to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there h=
ave been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was=
 consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed con=
cern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues=
 in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need t=
o wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also h=
ave a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don't have=
 a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of docum=
ents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work with.<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF mee=
ting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the doc=
uments in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard f=
or me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to on=
ce again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve been at this f=
or multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that were l=
ong ago made by consensus.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year an=
d the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for m=
e =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try=
 to undo consensus positions that have been debated and affirmed over and ov=
er.&nbsp; Countenancing wholesale changes at this late date is counterproduc=
tive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.&nbsp; In my ex=
perience, if we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99=
s delay.&nbsp; It does something simple and useful.&nbsp; Please, let=E2=80=99=
s just ship it, so people can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_4134400763206086768_m_56834029377=
81561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1p=
t;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</=
b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076=
3206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To=
:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320608=
6768cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><spa=
n class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340=
2937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases fo=
r multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 1=
2pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>On Oct 30, 2017, a=
t 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><p></p><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there i=
s a RISC profile event&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-=
type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">a=
ccount-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and an SCIM p=
rofile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">"<a href=3D"https://example.com/=
scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;=
white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm sugg=
esting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other d=
oes not make sense.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this=
 does not mean others are not valid.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping prop=
osals that have different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the diffe=
rence from issuing a single set with different events.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple dist=
inct events in one SET.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-t=
op:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_=
type be at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D=
"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&n=
bsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp=
; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://sci=
m.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D=
"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a=
>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.exam=
ple.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &=
nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://exa=
mple.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://e=
xample.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &=
nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4=
e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&=
nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a h=
ref=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"ev=
ent_type": "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A_=
_schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange=
-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC=
Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2=
GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<w=
br>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</a>",</span=
><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://idp.=
example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41=
34400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>=
"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On M=
on, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007=
63206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u><=
/u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;borde=
r-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;=
margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences=
 of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is t=
he proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a r=
ecursive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s &nb=
sp;consider a use case where we have an identity management system that uses=
 SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for Connect.&nb=
sp; A Password reset might generate the following event which has an extensi=
on (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH o=
f which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.=
com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events"=
: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:s=
cim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9"},<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/sci=
m/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/s=
cim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH=
9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.op=
enid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a=
ccount-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp; }</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer'=
 and issued without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign p=
riority in its own context if that matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></=
pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.=
com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event":=
 {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=
=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab6=
1e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_=
qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type=
/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-r=
eq<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https=
://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>=
/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extens=
ions have a different format. The same complaint about the original stands.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares a=
bout RISC more).&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</s=
pan></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr=
>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754=
</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9C=
event_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZ=
mr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>pe=
nid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
:"</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%=
E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440=
0763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C=
</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e=
7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a=
>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D=
"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp; </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;}</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, the extension is=
 placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old format (or should it=
 follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* Following the top layer patter=
n of singular event&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.=
</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"=
>{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7=
<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a=
 href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593=
b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"http=
s://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbs=
p;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH=
9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<=
wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;acc=
ount-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=
=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.examp=
le.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=
=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim=
:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>"id"=
:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event=
/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/sci=
m/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "resetAttempts":5<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed singular event fo=
rmat recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue t=
o search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop=
 when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over=
 an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
re></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Servic=
es Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI=
1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYh=
gpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;m=
argin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8=
:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,2=
24)">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',seri=
f">--&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Anna=
belle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',s=
erif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"border-style:s=
olid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);paddin=
g:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-43=
77787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12=
pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><=
b>To:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587=
3208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344=
00763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_=
5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jon=
es &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&g=
t;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com=
</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.=
org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632=
06086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf=
.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683=
402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666070=
3m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] U=
se cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answers your quest=
ion.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why n=
ot. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We shou=
ld opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that require more com=
plexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for multiple events in a S=
ET.&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">1.&nbsp; M=
ultiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *same*thing. =
For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.&nbsp; A RISC Event=
 and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?&nbsp; Do they o=
verlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/p=
asted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necess=
ary or appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They are likely b=
eing generated by different systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=
=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, a=
nd possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I know the latte=
r would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it b=
urdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained in combining=
 them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event objects,=
 Receivers independently route separate events from a single token without e=
ither losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing a=
ll information in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.=
[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;backgroun=
d-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.&nbsp; Multi=
ple events payloads expressing different statements about the same transacti=
on - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.&nbsp; A new profile de=
fines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure e=
xtension)&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have su=
ggested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now=
. If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I t=
hink it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by specifi=
c profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that making event s=
ingular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another ne=
sted JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that mul=
tiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><ol s=
tart=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial in=
itial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more complex struct=
ure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majorit=
y use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,22=
4);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-rep=
eat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The prese=
nce of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></=
li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D"=
1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;ba=
ckground-repeat:initial initial">They are related to the same logical event (=
i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common t=
xn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);back=
ground-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:ini=
tial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">B is an extension of A.<u></u=
><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initi=
al">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are not actually related=
 to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=
=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,=
70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">Claim semantics become harder to define, as differ=
ent profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u=
></li></ol></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wan=
ts to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event regi=
stry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to ex=
press multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99=
m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those ar=
e already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nb=
sp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna=
5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsf=
K5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independenti=
d.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span><=
/a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&n=
bsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margi=
n-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">On Oct=
 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344007632060=
86768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail=
.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In=
 your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", whi=
ch leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in SET.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit t=
hat it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs=
 with the same "txn", but the distributed system will certainly need to corr=
elate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same "txn" on t=
he same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to correlate mul=
tiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redund=
ant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An implementor may choos=
e to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a rec=
eiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the c=
ode paths, and we will need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so t=
hat seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span=
><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017=
 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
36456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaro=
nf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none=
 solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0=
in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I=
n that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definit=
ion of the "events" claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the=
 allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some p=
rofiles may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br>=
<br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_41344007632060867=
68m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br><b=
r>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><bloc=
kquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.=
8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-p=
osition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=
=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that t=
he =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99=
t have to be true for all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br><b=
r>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On=
 Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* R=
ichard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768creme=
d" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf=
.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763=
206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@iet=
f.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple eve=
nts per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this p=
roposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<=
br><br>Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to mor=
e inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payloa=
d space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflic=
ts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a parser t=
o discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independ=
ent structure.<br><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out g=
eneral purpose extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emerg=
ence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-d=
ata or other general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery sce=
narios where additional data might be required. Even though there is no curr=
ent planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Even=
ts =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like R=
ISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RI=
SC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time.=
 We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to ru=
le out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile i=
s expressing slightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can fo=
rsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the e=
xtension.&nbsp; There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples=
 (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is pro=
bably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different S=
ET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC s=
ession cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transactio=
n as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change caus=
es multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=
=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node deliv=
ery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would no=
t want to block this capability.&nbsp; IOW - Just because RISC does not want=
 to express multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<br><=
br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logou=
t/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The events are r=
elated but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar E=
vents Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separa=
tely, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure s=
imilar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides use=
ful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live o=
r near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading archi=
tectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally raised h=
aving an attribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your co=
ncern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_413440076320=
6086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587=
76980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq=
PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D=
S3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/w=
eb/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_4=
134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<w=
br>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The conse=
nsus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out b=
ased on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they repr=
esent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a=
 time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5n=
amg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span class=3D=
"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861=
410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A=
__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DY=
BCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whs=
yXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141=
0265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allows f=
or expressing multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same token, which i=
ntroduces additional complexity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambiguous sema=
ntics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC workin=
g group and the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; r=
equire that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. Wit=
h<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose striking the definition o=
f the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Even=
t Token spec, and replacing it<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following definitio=
n for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; even=
t<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose=
 value is a URI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event defined in a P=
rofiling Specification.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be empty, o=
r MAY contain additional members<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by the Profil=
ing Specification.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET from section=
 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;=
<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937781561080m-43777877558732089=
35m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": "4d3559ec6=
7504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458=
496404,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.exa=
mple.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_41344=
00763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https:/=
/scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_5683402937=
781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://sc=
im.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
tt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&n=
bsp; "aud": [<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"http=
s://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d5=
2461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a>"<wbr>,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &n=
bsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_413440076320=
6086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.e=
xample.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>"<br><br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br><br>&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:even=
t:cr<wbr>eate",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a hre=
f=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/User<w=
br>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]=
<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; **<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extens=
ion mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; object.=
 A simple approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D m=
ember<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or set resembling th=
e =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as defined in the current s=
pec). This has the advantage of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data=
 structure that there is a single primary<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero o=
r more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; over whic=
h event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; I=
 would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; *Aliases*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in the contex=
t of migrating clients<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft event names to standardiz=
ed event names. In this case,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can tra=
nsmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old n=
ame and another using the new name.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<br=
><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlat=
ing<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; independent tokens that relate to the same logical even=
t.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_4134400763206086768m_568340293778=
1561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle=
 Richard Backman<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_413440076=
3206086768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69=
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ref=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_4134400763206086768cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_4134400763206086=
768m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
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an/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
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 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><=
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bri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div sty=
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To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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+1

Phil

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design. T=
he goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However mul=
tiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the e=
xample given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>=20
> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have t=
wo representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version tha=
t they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>=20
> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to it=
 being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>=20
> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantics=
 between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other way=
s to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple representations o=
f the same event?
>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> w=
rote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=

>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type=
).  The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =20
>>>=20
>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  It=
 currently states:
>>>> events
>>>>       The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statement=
s
>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>>       logical event that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT b=
e
>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>=20
>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for=
 multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) n=
eeding to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force multip=
le SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all o=
f the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.  A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>=20
>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate ev=
ents, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receivers ha=
ve to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is unrelated=
 to this proposal.
>>=20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, d=
eeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.
>>>=20
>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =20
>>>=20
>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts betw=
een profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft and obs=
erve the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (=
understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>=20
>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazo=
n.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be i=
ncluded in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyw=
ay, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario=
 that they have to support.
>>>> =20
>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are agai=
n:
>>>> Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the sing=
le event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two event=
s A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>> A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as i=
f they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>> A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>> A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tra=
nsmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver.=

>>>> Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different profile=
s may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>> Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. Th=
is forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information necessa=
ry, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle"=
 <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hu=
nt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Subject: RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>> =20
>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipien=
t.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to correlat=
e and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the sa=
me logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with al=
l the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with n=
o correlation over time then required.
>>>> =20
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>> =20
>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>> =20
>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensio=
ns of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think t=
his is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as wit=
h many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not=
 understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There s=
hould not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile t=
hat created the event format to start off with.
>>>> =20
>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not su=
re why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event i=
s well defined with=20
>>>> =20
>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>> =20
>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in o=
ne set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a r=
eason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a prefere=
nce, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use=
 cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a r=
eceiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as=
 not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one e=
vent per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is chall=
enging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com> wrote:
>>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this cha=
racteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary passw=
ordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which could h=
ave been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not l=
ess.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flex=
ibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: {=

>>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>>            }
>>>>>          }
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>> =20
>>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events s=
haring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It for=
ces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related events (o=
r facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipients t=
o do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dick Ha=
rdt
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" ev=
ents. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the d=
iscussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiv=
er must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlat=
ed events in the same SET.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.=
com> wrote:
>>>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort a=
t different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mome=
ntum.  I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were t=
aken.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specif=
ic proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the se=
t have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a=
 state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecond=
ary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99=
s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>                                                                 -- Mi=
ke
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Ma=
iling List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specifi=
cation until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3=
rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the parti=
cipants have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we are loo=
king for consensus across the WG.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel i=
t is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety=
 of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that p=
roperties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and n=
ot be included in SecEvent.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups pr=
ofile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number o=
f issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SE=
T.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of c=
hanges to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before the=
 WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the design of S=
ET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining i=
ssues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will n=
eed to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, a=
nd we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a=
 number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone=
 to work with.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF meet=
ing, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the docu=
ments in a timely manner.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration wit=
h the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=
=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revis=
it decisions that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable=
 for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=
=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensu=
s positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancin=
g wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, i=
f we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  I=
t does something simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so p=
eople can rely on it.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabell=
e <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events=
 Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Inline...
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile ev=
ent=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-credent=
ial-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding o=
ne in the other does not make sense.
>>>>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this d=
oes not mean others are not valid.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but=
 not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with d=
ifferent events.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple dist=
inct events in one SET.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level=
 as event
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",=

>>>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-typ=
e/account-credential-change-required",
>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"      =20
>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>=
 wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequenc=
es of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extensi=
on mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does=
 it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity manag=
ement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data=
 store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event whi=
ch has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from R=
ISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and O=
IDC. =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>   }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without=
 preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own c=
ontext if that matters.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> The new proposal:
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pass=
wordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>>>>    }   =20
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. Th=
e same complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this lead=
s to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secev=
ent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>         {=20
>>>>>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>>>>>>>>           }     =20
>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends.=
 It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>>>>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that t=
his leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secev=
ent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/e=
vent/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively=
 and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the do=
cument for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna=
@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID E=
vents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason=
 why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D singular?
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer s=
emantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless=
 there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are go=
od, some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely t=
he *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A=
 RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  Do t=
hey overlap or are they distinct? =20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>>>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the=
 same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different=
 times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on t=
he receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is gained in combining them?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the eve=
nt objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event o=
r sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any event in=
 the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements abou=
t the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to a=
n existing event type (a pure extension)=20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an e=
vent body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point the=
m out.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited b=
y specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anyth=
ing. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and=
 potentially conflicting.=20
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>>>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>>>>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use c=
ase, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two=
 events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>>>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>>>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>>>>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>>>>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles ma=
y want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to=
 establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to e=
liminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you ref=
erring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/ri=
channa]
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the w=
ord "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really req=
uired in SET.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to c=
orrelate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system will c=
ertainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating events o=
n the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on t=
he same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds c=
omplexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a singl=
e SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefe=
r we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support c=
orrelating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add t=
o the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statem=
ents, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require t=
his claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Ce=
vents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be tru=
e for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                               =
   -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf=
 Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SE=
T?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads=
 to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event=
 payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and c=
onflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a pa=
rser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have in=
dependent structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not rel=
ated to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would n=
ot want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose items=
. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data might=
 be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good rea=
son to rule this out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events=
 from a single family like RISC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct R=
ISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time=
. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to r=
ule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile i=
s expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the pri=
mary and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just p=
ossibilities):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlappi=
ng events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel=
 Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing m=
ultiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple ef=
fects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system. =
  The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this c=
apability.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events=
 does not make this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed a=
nd a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events a=
re related but express different data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the S=
ame Transaction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.=
g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or ha=
ndled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=
=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distrib=
uted multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designa=
te primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accep=
ted. See:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00=
406.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00=
140.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the recei=
ver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI an=
d the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RIS=
C event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing mu=
ltiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional c=
omplexity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed t=
his in the OIDF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that=
 RISC will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET=
, having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful o=
f use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raise=
d. With
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of=
 the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Tok=
en spec, and replacing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D=
 claim (singular):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose valu=
e is a URI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specif=
ication.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain addition=
al members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with t=
his change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.c=
om/>",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b=
7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d767=
6ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6=
ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "=
emails"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs t=
hat cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified t=
hree use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the e=
vent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9C=
extensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advant=
age of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a sing=
le primary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for c=
onfusion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary even=
t at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my prop=
osed text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating c=
lients
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In thi=
s case,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logi=
cal event,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlati=
ng
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www=
.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQc=
xBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5b=
yBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58Z=
Fd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I a=
m working on!
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mj=
jhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001f=
K02EXs&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIr=
MUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0H=
aTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm4=
6QSz0&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uG=
CQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVR=
zwc&e=3D
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am wor=
king on!
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am work=
ing on!
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am worki=
ng on!
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
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magv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&=
e=3D
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-D8B4B242-FE96-4A37-9264-48287C46CB37
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>+1<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 1,=
 2017, at 2:46 PM, William Denniss &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com=
">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of t=
he current design. The goal was always that a SET represents a single logica=
l event. However multiple systems may have different representations of the e=
vent =E2=80=93 the example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and o=
ne for SCIM.<div><br></div><div>A good analogy is email. You send a single l=
ogical email, which may have two representations, HTML and plain text. Syste=
ms can consume the version that they understand and ignore the one they don'=
t.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", i=
t was pluralized due to it being an array, not because it represented multip=
le logical events.</div><div><br></div><div>Annabelle, I understand your con=
cerns regarding confusion of the semantics between the JSON syntax and the s=
pecification language. Are there other ways to resolve that without removing=
 the ability for multiple representations of the same event?</div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at=
 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtesc=
u@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_74763469=
46956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You=
 can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type).&nbsp=
; The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). &nbsp;<div><=
br></div><div>Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event=
 SETS.&nbsp; It currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33=
3333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The spe=
c has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple s=
eparate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing to b=
e sent as a single message.&nbsp; It would be INSECURE to force multiple SET=
s because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be delivered=
 at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all of the=
 SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.&nbsp; A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to re=
ceive separate events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". B=
ut, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so=
 it is unrelated to this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div=
><br></div><div>If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a=
 complex, deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace con=
flicts.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it comp=
licating and limiting. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has v=
ery clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we s=
hould stay on track with the current draft and observe the normative text if=
 not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may d=
isagree).</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:b=
reak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services=
 Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D-nkS2QokFrPHYiIVwW-U5VYqENjnc7oCWmKVhbGhfxg&=
amp;s=3DhjqjCQZR89LZYQjS98hGdWNq11JHp4jEmZ9A4TW3xe0&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></d=
iv></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_74=
76346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:</div><br class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-intercha=
nge-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Wo=
rdSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile guarantees=
 that such related events will always be included in the same SET, then the r=
eceiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple events per SET is j=
ust giving the receiver another scenario that they have to support.<u></u><u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99ve already p=
rovided several other reasons why we should not support multiple tokens per S=
ET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u></u><u></u></div><ol st=
art=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple ev=
ent support results in a more complex structure for the single event use cas=
e, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><l=
i class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">M=
ultiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A an=
d B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"=
a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are related to the sa=
me logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs th=
at have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u><=
/u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagr=
aph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or v=
ice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are not actually related to one anothe=
r in any way, and the transmitter bundled them together because they were go=
ing to the same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim seman=
tics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the same=
 claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be v=
erified without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downs=
tream systems to more information necessary, if those systems need to be abl=
e to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New R=
oman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u>=
</u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'=
Times New Roman',serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;bor=
der-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 A=
M<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hard=
t@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [Id=
-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over t=
he recipient.&nbsp; In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to h=
ave to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing informati=
on about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive o=
ne SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
 fields, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u></u><u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=
- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_7476346946956833004_m=
_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wedn=
esday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b=
><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon=
.com" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazo=
n.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple ev=
ents per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The examp=
le is how to have a predefined extension point for extensions of a specific e=
vent, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think this is overly com=
plicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as with many other JSON=
 formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not understand, whic=
h let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not be any c=
onflict as extensions should only be done by the profile that created the ev=
ent format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much h=
arder to code against. I'm not sure why Marius had that in his example. Per t=
he event, the type of the event is well defined with&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">"=
event_type": "</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</=
span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;colo=
r:rgb(80,0,80)">",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is about reasons for m=
ultiple events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not wan=
ting to sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I think w=
e have decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the transmitt=
er over the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Giv=
en that, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managin=
g the receipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, s=
o it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate event=
s with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experie=
nce.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 20=
17 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;bord=
er-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt=
;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exac=
tly this characteristic.&nbsp; The way I see it, his proposal essentially ha=
s a primary passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data struct=
ure, which could have been simply another event value in the current draft.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This b=
reaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not less.&nbsp; A=
nd it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility=
 to those who would use the spec.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb=
1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.e=
xample.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d760451=
6b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://exampl=
e.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://exam=
ple.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"extensions": {</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/even=
t/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve=
<wbr>nt/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5,</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple r=
elated events sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the i=
ssuer.&nbsp; It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of th=
e related events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forc=
es the recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary sig=
natures.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_74763469=
46956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose" cl=
ass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp=
;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_747634=
6946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-eve=
nt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of=
<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Oct=
ober 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.i=
etf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rich=
anna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; I=
D Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=
=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Plea=
se direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" events. I ag=
ree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussions=
 so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is tha=
t there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event pe=
r SET adds complexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated even=
ts in one SET as well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Mi=
chael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:n=
one none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear you on the fact that diffe=
rent people have joined the effort at different times.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a=
 normal process as an effort builds momentum.&nbsp; I get that not everyone w=
as there when previous consensus calls were taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note that I have spec=
ific technical objections to the specific proposed changes being discussed a=
s well.&nbsp; Currently all events in the set have the same syntax.&nbsp; Th=
e proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99=
s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with d=
ifferent syntax for the two classes.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s needlessly more co=
mplicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7=
476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM=
<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a=
>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;=
; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@i=
etf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346=
946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event]=
 Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike<u></u><u></u></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you well kn=
ow, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specification until last cal=
l is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG=
 has not existed for very long. While some of the participants have been wor=
king on this for a while, many have not, and we are looking for consensus ac=
ross the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be pro=
filed, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are eas=
y for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I a=
lso think that properties that are specific to a profile should be left to t=
hat profile and not be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framew=
ork, it is expected that as different groups profile it, there will be addit=
ional feedback.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile o=
f SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at h=
ow to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there h=
ave been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was=
 consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed con=
cern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues=
 in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need t=
o wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also h=
ave a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don't have=
 a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of docum=
ents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work with.<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF mee=
ting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the doc=
uments in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard f=
or me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to on=
ce again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve been at this f=
or multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that were l=
ong ago made by consensus.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year an=
d the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for m=
e =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try=
 to undo consensus positions that have been debated and affirmed over and ov=
er.&nbsp; Countenancing wholesale changes at this late date is counterproduc=
tive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.&nbsp; In my ex=
perience, if we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99=
s delay.&nbsp; It does something simple and useful.&nbsp; Please, let=E2=80=99=
s just ship it, so people can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_7476346946956833004_m_56834029377=
81561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1p=
t;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</=
b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694=
6956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080A=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To=
:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695683=
3004cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><spa=
n class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Ann=
abelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</=
a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340=
2937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases fo=
r multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 1=
2pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>On Oct 30, 2017, a=
t 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><p></p><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there i=
s a RISC profile event&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-=
type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">a=
ccount-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and an SCIM p=
rofile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">"<a href=3D"https://example.com/=
scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;=
white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm sugg=
esting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other d=
oes not make sense.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this=
 does not mean others are not valid.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping prop=
osals that have different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the diffe=
rence from issuing a single set with different events.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple dist=
inct events in one SET.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-t=
op:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_=
type be at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D=
"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&n=
bsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp=
; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://sci=
m.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D=
"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a=
>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.exam=
ple.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &=
nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://exa=
mple.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://e=
xample.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &=
nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4=
e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&=
nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a h=
ref=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"ev=
ent_type": "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A_=
_schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange=
-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC=
Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2=
GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<w=
br>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</a>",</span=
><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://idp.=
example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74=
76346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>=
"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On M=
on, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469=
46956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u><=
/u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;borde=
r-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;=
margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences=
 of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is t=
he proposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a r=
ecursive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s &nb=
sp;consider a use case where we have an identity management system that uses=
 SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for Connect.&nb=
sp; A Password reset might generate the following event which has an extensi=
on (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH o=
f which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.=
com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events"=
: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:s=
cim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9"},<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/sci=
m/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/s=
cim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH=
9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.op=
enid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;a=
ccount-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp; }</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer'=
 and issued without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign p=
riority in its own context if that matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></=
pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.=
com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event":=
 {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=
=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab6=
1e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_=
qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type=
/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-r=
eq<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https=
://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>=
/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extens=
ions have a different format. The same complaint about the original stands.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><=
span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares a=
bout RISC more).&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</s=
pan></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr=
>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754=
</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9C=
event_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZ=
mr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>pe=
nid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D=
:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D=
:"</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%=
E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634=
6946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C=
</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e=
7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a=
>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D=
"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp; </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;}</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, the extension is=
 placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old format (or should it=
 follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* Following the top layer patter=
n of singular event&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.=
</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"=
>{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7=
<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a=
 href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593=
b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"http=
s://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbs=
p;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH=
9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<=
wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;acc=
ount-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=
=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.examp=
le.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=
=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim=
:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>"id"=
:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event=
/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/sci=
m/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "resetAttempts":5<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed singular event fo=
rmat recursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue t=
o search the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop=
 when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over=
 an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
re></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Servic=
es Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI=
1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYh=
gpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;m=
argin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8=
:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,2=
24)">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',seri=
f">--&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Anna=
belle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgroun=
d-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',s=
erif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"border-style:s=
olid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);paddin=
g:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43=
77787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12=
pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br=
><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><=
b>To:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587=
3208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763=
46946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_=
5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jon=
es &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&g=
t;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com=
</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.=
org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469=
56833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf=
.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683=
402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666070=
3m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] U=
se cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answers your quest=
ion.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why n=
ot. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevent=
s=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9C=
event=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to process. We shou=
ld opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that require more com=
plexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for multiple events in a S=
ET.&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">1.&nbsp; M=
ultiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *same*thing. =
For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.&nbsp; A RISC Event=
 and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?&nbsp; Do they o=
verlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/p=
asted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necess=
ary or appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They are likely b=
eing generated by different systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=
=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, a=
nd possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I know the latte=
r would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it b=
urdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained in combining=
 them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event objects,=
 Receivers independently route separate events from a single token without e=
ither losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing a=
ll information in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.=
[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;backgroun=
d-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.&nbsp; Multi=
ple events payloads expressing different statements about the same transacti=
on - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.&nbsp; A new profile de=
fines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a pure e=
xtension)&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have su=
ggested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple times now=
. If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I t=
hink it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited by specifi=
c profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that making event s=
ingular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (another ne=
sted JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that mul=
tiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><ol s=
tart=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial in=
itial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more complex struct=
ure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majorit=
y use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,22=
4);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-rep=
eat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The prese=
nce of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></=
li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D"=
1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;ba=
ckground-repeat:initial initial">They are related to the same logical event (=
i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common t=
xn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);back=
ground-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:ini=
tial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">B is an extension of A.<u></u=
><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-col=
or:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initi=
al">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are not actually related=
 to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=
=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,=
70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">Claim semantics become harder to define, as differ=
ent profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u=
></li></ol></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wan=
ts to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event regi=
stry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to ex=
press multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99=
m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those ar=
e already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">Phil<=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nb=
sp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"h=
ttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&a=
mp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna=
5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsf=
K5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independenti=
d.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span><=
/a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&n=
bsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margi=
n-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">On Oct=
 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763469469568=
33004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail=
.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,san=
s-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In=
 your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", whi=
ch leads me to question if a plurality of events is really required in SET.<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit t=
hat it will be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs=
 with the same "txn", but the distributed system will certainly need to corr=
elate events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same "txn" on t=
he same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to correlate mul=
tiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redund=
ant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An implementor may choos=
e to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a rec=
eiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the c=
ode paths, and we will need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so t=
hat seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span=
><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017=
 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
36456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaro=
nf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none=
 solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0=
in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-c=
olor:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I=
n that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definit=
ion of the "events" claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the=
 allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some p=
rofiles may require this claim to contain only a single event statement.<br>=
<br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br><b=
r>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><bloc=
kquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.=
8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-p=
osition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=
=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that t=
he =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99=
t have to be true for all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br><b=
r>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4=
377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On=
 Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* R=
ichard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf=
.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946=
956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@iet=
f.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple eve=
nts per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this p=
roposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<=
br><br>Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to mor=
e inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payloa=
d space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflic=
ts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a parser t=
o discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have independ=
ent structure.<br><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out g=
eneral purpose extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emerg=
ence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-d=
ata or other general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery sce=
narios where additional data might be required. Even though there is no curr=
ent planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Even=
ts =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like R=
ISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RI=
SC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time.=
 We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to ru=
le out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile i=
s expressing slightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can fo=
rsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the e=
xtension.&nbsp; There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples=
 (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is pro=
bably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different S=
ET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC s=
ession cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transactio=
n as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change caus=
es multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=
=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node deliv=
ery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would no=
t want to block this capability.&nbsp; IOW - Just because RISC does not want=
 to express multiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<br><=
br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logou=
t/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The events are r=
elated but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar E=
vents Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separa=
tely, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure s=
imilar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides use=
ful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live o=
r near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading archi=
tectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally raised h=
aving an attribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your co=
ncern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587=
76980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
l-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1=
YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq=
PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D=
S3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/w=
eb/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_7=
476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&a=
mp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4=
DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1=
iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<w=
br>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The conse=
nsus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out b=
ased on the definitions it has for each event URI and the profiles they repr=
esent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a=
 time.<br><br>Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Archit=
ect<br><br>@independentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5n=
amg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861=
410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A=
__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DY=
BCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whs=
yXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D=
"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141=
0265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allows f=
or expressing multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same token, which i=
ntroduces additional complexity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambiguous sema=
ntics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC workin=
g group and the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; r=
equire that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. Wit=
h<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose striking the definition o=
f the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Even=
t Token spec, and replacing it<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following definitio=
n for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; even=
t<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose=
 value is a URI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event defined in a P=
rofiling Specification.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be empty, o=
r MAY contain additional members<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by the Profil=
ing Specification.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET from section=
 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;=
<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877558732089=
35m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": "4d3559ec6=
7504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458=
496404,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.exa=
mple.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_74763=
46946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https:/=
/scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://sc=
im.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">h=
tt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&n=
bsp; "aud": [<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"http=
s://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d5=
2461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a>"<wbr>,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &n=
bsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676e=
e7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634694695=
6833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.e=
xample.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>"<br><br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br><br>&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:even=
t:cr<wbr>eate",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a hre=
f=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/User<w=
br>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]=
<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &n=
bsp; Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified thre=
e use<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; **<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extens=
ion mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; object.=
 A simple approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D m=
ember<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or set resembling th=
e =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as defined in the current s=
pec). This has the advantage of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data=
 structure that there is a single primary<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero o=
r more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; over whic=
h event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; I=
 would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; *Aliases*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in the contex=
t of migrating clients<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft event names to standardiz=
ed event names. In this case,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can tra=
nsmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old n=
ame and another using the new name.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<br=
><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlat=
ing<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; independent tokens that relate to the same logical even=
t.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle=
 Richard Backman<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br>=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69=
58776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698=
0246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<s=
pan class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935=
m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted=
-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRo=
P1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEi=
vzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3D=
X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp;d=
=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg<wbr>aWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK<wbr>10&amp;=
r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE<wbr>ivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KA<wbr>N=
nGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFS<wbr>ibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3<wbr>e=
VI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br><br><br><br>_____________________=
_________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailt=
o:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.co=
m/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFa=
Q&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRl=
QG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>______________________________<wbr>_______________=
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"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></=
a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.=
ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802=
iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event<=
/span></a></span><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helv=
etica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377=
787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D=
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p;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__ha=
rdtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhc=
Fsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DLYN72GgKVhHsT6tAqBe-eMoWMvy_7dfFn1uZ=
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HARDTWARE</span></a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156108=
0m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608=
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 I am working on!</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_=
________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br></span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747=
6346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman=
_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCG=
lK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4=
zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple">https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id=
-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;=
m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhc<wbr>Fsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1i<wbr>w&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV8=
02iMQ4wYB1f2rFUG<wbr>u4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:=
initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">_________________________=
_____<wbr>_________________</span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif"><br><span style=3D"background-color:white;background-po=
sition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing l=
ist</span><br></span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color=
:purple;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
qPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3D=
rvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:p=
urple;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-=
repeat:initial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dht=
tps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&am=
p;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBT=
WmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaT<wbr>X4anNZfzX7=
pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGie<wbr>c&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHK<wbr>p-MJ20ui2n=
m46QSz0&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DwtgD3Np0vyh=
LdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARD=
TWARE</a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conv=
erted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am working on!=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event=
 mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICA=
g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_=
qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uG<wbr>CQ6MD0zF2ymRQ=
S6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_<wbr>w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1<wbr>DVPjhXjVJkfhV=
Rzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></=
div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u><=
/div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.=
com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv=
5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&=
amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_747634=
6946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail li=
st to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<span cla=
ss=3D"m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></f=
ont></span></div></div><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font col=
or=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781=
561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9g=
yTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am wor=
king on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></spa=
n></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_74763469=
46956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u=
></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<s=
pan class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subs=
cribe to the<span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2Vl=
iwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_7476346946956833004cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE=
</a><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted=
-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></span></div></div=
><span class=3D"m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background=
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From: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:00:59 -0700
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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The receiver probably knows which version they want, but does the sender?
Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email client to
accept plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=93 not kno=
wing
what you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my message.

I think it would help if we broke this problem down into two parts. 1/ Are
multi-format SETs desirable? That's been the design since the earliest
version. 2/ What is the best representation of the SET based on what we
decide for #1.

My understanding was that the "events" plural (related to #2, the best
representation of a SET) *was* in fact a concern, as people may skip the
text and look directly at the JSON syntax, then jump to conclusions.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design.
>> The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. Howeve=
r
>> multiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=
=93 the
>> example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>>
>> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have
>> two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the versio=
n
>> that they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>>
>
> Yes, and I think this is well understood.
>
>
>
>>
>> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to
>> it being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>>
>
> I don't think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.
>
>
>
>>
>> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the
>> semantics between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are th=
ere
>> other ways to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple
>> representations of the same event?
>>
>
> The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct
> SETs, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though.
> Events are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants the
> SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in
> configuration (there is a proposal how to capture that).
>
> Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple
> variants all at once?
>
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same ty=
pe).  The
>>>> current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>>>>
>>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.
>>>> It currently states:
>>>>
>>>> events
>>>>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event stateme=
nts
>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT =
be
>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec)
>>>> for multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile
>>>> familities) needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSEC=
URE
>>>> to force multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only all=
ows
>>>> one SET to be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a si=
ngle
>>>> receiver gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node
>>>> environment at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=
=E2=80=9D in a common
>>>> state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
>>> events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, recei=
vers
>>> have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
>>> unrelated to this proposal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex,
>>>> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflic=
ts.
>>>>
>>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>>>>
>>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
>>>> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current dra=
ft
>>>> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
>>>> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
>>>> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SE=
Ts
>>>> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver anothe=
r
>>>> scenario that they have to support.
>>>>
>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not =
support
>>>> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are again=
:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for
>>>>    the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majori=
ty use
>>>>    case.
>>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of
>>>>    two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>>>>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn=
).
>>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way,
>>>>       and the transmitter bundled them together because they were goin=
g to the
>>>>       same receiver.
>>>>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>>>>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>>>>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more inf=
ormation
>>>>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman,
>>>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
>>>> id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the
>>>> recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to ha=
ve to
>>>> correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing informatio=
n
>>>> about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to recei=
ve
>>>> one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D fields, with
>>>> no correlation over time then required.
>>>>
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com>=
]
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <
>>>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>>
>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for
>>>> extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. My=
self,
>>>> I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively sta=
tic,
>>>> and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore proper=
ties
>>>> it does not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as
>>>> extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should only=
 be
>>>> done by the profile that created the event format to start off with.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not
>>>> sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of th=
e
>>>> event is well defined with
>>>>
>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>
>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in
>>>> one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events=
 as a
>>>> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
>>>> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver a=
s in
>>>> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
>>>> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt =
of
>>>> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is si=
mpler
>>>> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a U=
RI as
>>>> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
>>>> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a prim=
ary
>>>> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, w=
hich
>>>> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>
>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
>>>> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reduci=
ng
>>>> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>
>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>    ],
>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D: =
{
>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>            }
>>>>          }
>>>>        }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
>>>> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer. =
 It
>>>> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
>>>> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces t=
he
>>>> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
>>>> signatures.
>>>>
>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D set but
>>>> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dic=
k
>>>> Hardt
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <
>>>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
>>>> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage =
in
>>>> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>
>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>
>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a
>>>> receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well=
 as
>>>> correlated events in the same SET.
>>>>
>>>> /Dick
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at
>>>> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds =
momentum.  I
>>>> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were tak=
en.
>>>>
>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the specifi=
c
>>>> proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the=
 set
>>>> have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us =
to a
>>>> state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cs=
econdary=E2=80=9D events, with different
>>>> syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicate=
d, adding no
>>>> actual value.
>>>>
>>>>                                                                 -- Mik=
e
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
>>>> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.co=
m>;
>>>> ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
>>>> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up =
on
>>>> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While s=
ome
>>>> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have n=
ot,
>>>> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>>>
>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it
>>>> is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a var=
iety
>>>> of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think =
that
>>>> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profi=
le
>>>> and not be included in SecEvent.
>>>>
>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups
>>>> profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of
>>>> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use th=
e SET.
>>>>
>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
>>>> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Bef=
ore
>>>> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the d=
esign
>>>> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>
>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
>>>> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we=
 will
>>>> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>>>>
>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, an=
d
>>>> we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are stil=
l a
>>>> number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for so=
meone
>>>> to work with.
>>>>
>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF
>>>> meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize al=
l the
>>>> documents in a timely manner.
>>>>
>>>> /Dick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with =
the
>>>> recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=
=80=99ve been
>>>> at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decis=
ions
>>>> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for ov=
er a year and
>>>> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks f=
or me =E2=80=93 ship
>>>> it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus =
positions
>>>> that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenancing whol=
esale
>>>> changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>>>
>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if =
we start
>>>> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It do=
es something
>>>> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can =
rely on it.
>>>>
>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.or=
g
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> Inline...
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>
>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_even=
t-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymR=
QS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>ac=
count-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one
>>>> in the other does not make sense.
>>>>
>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this
>>>> does not mean others are not valid.
>>>>
>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but
>>>> not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set w=
ith
>>>> different events.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple
>>>> distinct events in one SET.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as
>>>> event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>    ],
>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>        }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>    ],
>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/sec
>>>> event/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.=
net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qS=
C_w&s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
>>>> ",
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>        }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences o=
f
>>>> the proposal in JSON.
>>>>
>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>>>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). D=
oes
>>>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>
>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity managemen=
t system
>>>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store =
for
>>>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which ha=
s an
>>>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.
>>>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and =
OIDC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>
>>>>    ],
>>>>
>>>>    "events": {
>>>>
>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>
>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>
>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>
>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>
>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ris=
c_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0=
zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=
=3D>
>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>
>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>
>>>>        }
>>>>
>>>>   }
>>>>
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without pre=
ference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own con=
text if that matters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *The new proposal:*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>
>>>>    ],
>>>>
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>
>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:password=
Reset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>
>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>
>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>
>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>
>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_r=
isc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6M=
D0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw=
&e=3D>
>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>
>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>
>>>>        }
>>>>
>>>>      }
>>>>
>>>>    }
>>>>
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The sa=
me complaint about the original stands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads t=
o a triple nested structure.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>
>>>>    ],
>>>>
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>
>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/=
risc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sc=
hemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU=
-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>
>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>
>>>>         {
>>>>
>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>
>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>
>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>
>>>>           }
>>>>
>>>>         }
>>>>
>>>>       }
>>>>
>>>>    }
>>>>
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It =
follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>
>>>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that thi=
s leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>>
>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>
>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>
>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>
>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>
>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>
>>>>    ],
>>>>
>>>>    "event": {
>>>>
>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/=
risc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__sc=
hemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcL=
N4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU=
-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>
>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>
>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passw=
ordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>
>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/event=
/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>
>>>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>>>
>>>>         }
>>>>
>>>>       }
>>>>
>>>>    }
>>>>
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively and=
 is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the docum=
ent for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67y=
F_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>> Identity Services
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>>>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>
>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why =
not. The question should
>>>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singula=
r?
>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer seman=
tics and is
>>>> easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are=
 use
>>>> cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>
>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good,
>>>> some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>
>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>>>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=
  A
>>>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?=
  Do
>>>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same
>>>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at different
>>>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems=
 on the
>>>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different=
 event
>>>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Ev=
en if
>>>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? Wh=
at value is
>>>> gained in combining them?
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>>>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single t=
oken
>>>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the ev=
ent
>>>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any e=
vent
>>>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the
>>>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>>>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event
>>>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point th=
em
>>>> out.[/richanna]
>>>>
>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>>>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>
>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything.
>>>> For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) an=
d
>>>> potentially conflicting.
>>>> [richanna]
>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>
>>>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of
>>>>    two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing
>>>>       as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles
>>>>    may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>>>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overla=
p to
>>>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referrin=
g to
>>>> event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richan=
na]
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9=
mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Phil:
>>>>
>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>>>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>>>> required in SET.
>>>>
>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to
>>>> correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed syste=
m
>>>> will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correla=
ting
>>>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>
>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the
>>>> same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and add=
s
>>>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>
>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>>>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefe=
r we
>>>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>>>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>
>>>> /Dick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>>>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>
>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements,
>>>> and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require =
this
>>>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>         Yaron
>>>>
>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>
>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set must be a
>>>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I th=
ink things
>>>> are fine as-is.
>>>>
>>>>                                                                  --
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>> *Phil Hunt
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>
>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>
>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>
>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>
>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more
>>>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event pa=
yload
>>>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>>>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allo=
ws a
>>>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each=
 have
>>>> independent structure.
>>>>
>>>> General extensions
>>>>
>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to
>>>> any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would no=
t
>>>> want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose it=
ems.
>>>> We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data m=
ight
>>>> be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no goo=
d
>>>> reason to rule this out.
>>>>
>>>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>>>> single family like RISC)
>>>>
>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC
>>>> events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a ti=
me.
>>>> We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason =
to rule out
>>>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is
>>>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>
>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and
>>>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibil=
ities):
>>>>
>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping event=
s
>>>> from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchannel Log=
out &
>>>> a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>
>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>>>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple effe=
cts).
>>>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be
>>>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCIM=
 list
>>>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.=
  IOW
>>>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not =
make
>>>> this true for other profiles.
>>>>
>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>>>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The events=
 are
>>>> related but express different data.
>>>>
>>>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>>>> Transaction
>>>>
>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by
>>>> txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or ha=
ndled
>>>> as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=
=80=99m not
>>>> sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distribute=
d
>>>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>
>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>
>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate
>>>> primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not
>>>> accepted. See:
>>>>
>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.html
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGb=
JwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.html
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_m=
ail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cSh=
V7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>>
>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>>>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI and=
 the
>>>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RIS=
C
>>>> event be expressed at a time.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>
>>>> @independentid
>>>>
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9=
KATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independent=
id.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9=
KATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>
>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional complexi=
ty
>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in =
the OIDF
>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC wi=
ll
>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having
>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec,=
 and replacing it
>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim=
 (singular):
>>>>
>>>>     event
>>>>
>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a U=
RI
>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification.
>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional membe=
rs
>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>
>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this chan=
ge
>>>>     mind:
>>>>
>>>>     {
>>>>
>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>
>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>
>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>
>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>
>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>
>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>
>>>>        ],
>>>>
>>>>        "event": {
>>>>
>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>
>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/User
>>>> s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>
>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"=
]
>>>>
>>>>        }
>>>>
>>>>     }
>>>>
>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that cann=
ot
>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use
>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>
>>>>     **
>>>>
>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>
>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensio=
ns=E2=80=9D member
>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cev=
ents=E2=80=9D
>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single prima=
ry
>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusio=
n
>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at all=
.
>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed tex=
t,
>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>
>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>
>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical even=
t,
>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>
>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>
>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>
>>>>     --
>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>
>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     Id-event mailing list
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>>>> zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSib
>>>> Ec&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>> &s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&e=3D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">The receiver probably knows which version they want, but d=
oes the sender? Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email=
 client to accept plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=
=93 not knowing what you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my messa=
ge.<div><br></div><div>I think it would help if we broke this problem down =
into two parts. 1/ Are multi-format SETs desirable? That&#39;s been the des=
ign since the earliest version. 2/ What is the best representation of the S=
ET based on what we decide for #1.</div><div><br></div><div>My understandin=
g was that the &quot;events&quot; plural (related to #2, the best represent=
ation of a SET) <i>was</i> in fact=C2=A0a concern, as people may skip the t=
ext and look directly at the JSON syntax, then jump to conclusions.</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017=
 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscur=
tescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William =
Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Perhap=
s I can try and explain the original intent of the current design. The goal=
 was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However multiple =
systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the examp=
le given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.<div><br><=
/div><div>A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which m=
ay have two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the v=
ersion that they understand and ignore the one they don&#39;t.</div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and I think this is well understood.</=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m starting to regret the plural in &quot=
;events&quot;, it was pluralized due to it being an array, not because it r=
epresented multiple logical events.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I don&#39;t think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Annabelle, I understand your concerns regardin=
g confusion of the semantics between the JSON syntax and the specification =
language. Are there other ways to resolve that without removing the ability=
 for multiple representations of the same event?</div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>The argument is that multiple representations can be sent=
 as distinct SETs, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rar=
e though. Events are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either w=
ants the SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that i=
n configuration (there is a proposal how to capture that).</div><div><br></=
div><div>Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive mul=
tiple variants all at once?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615327=
9834cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=
=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type).=C2=A0 T=
he current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br=
></div><div>Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event =
SETS.=C2=A0 It currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834=
02937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815=
61080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal=
;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br=
></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect</div><div=
>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" class=3D=
"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6=
337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div>=
</div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m=
_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633=
7440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337=
440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
</div><br class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-=
style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the p=
rofile guarantees that such related events will always be included in the s=
ame SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multipl=
e events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they hav=
e to support.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are aga=
in:<u></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0i=
n;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple ev=
ent support results in a more complex structure for the single event use ca=
se, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li>=
<li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple-event SETs have ambi=
guous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could m=
ean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:=
0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B a=
re related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were f=
rom different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li>=
<li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u=
><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias fo=
r B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and th=
e transmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same rec=
eiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different profi=
les may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><l=
i class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be ve=
rified without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downs=
tream systems to more information necessary, if those systems need to be ab=
le to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Ti=
mes New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Anna=
belle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 =
Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:s=
olid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);paddi=
ng:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span clas=
s=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683=
402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsof=
t.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span=
 class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815=
61080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use cases =
for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipient=
.=C2=A0 In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to cor=
relate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about =
the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET =
with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D field=
s, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_63374408961532=
79834_m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080__M=
ailEndCompose" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span c=
lass=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5=
683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>T=
o:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jon=
es &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408961532=
79834cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron She=
ffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615327983=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, =
Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615327=
9834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailin=
g List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_6337440896153279=
834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D=
"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for=
 multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple of points:<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for exten=
sions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I th=
ink this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and =
as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it d=
oes not understand, which let&#39;s new properties be introduced as extensi=
ons. There should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by =
the profile that created the event format to start off with.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I&#39;m not su=
re why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event=
 is well defined with=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;event_type&qu=
ot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetEx=
t" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279=
834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordReset=
Ext</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This threa=
d is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in one set. Your men=
tion of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a reason to allow =
multiple events. I think we have decided that given a preference, we will p=
ush effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use cases there =
are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a receiver to h=
ave different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as not all is=
suers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one event per S=
ET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to=
 implement, speaking from experience.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mik=
e Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><=
blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in =
5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this cha=
racteristic.=C2=A0 The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary=
 passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which=
 could have been simply another event value in the current draft.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This break=
ing change makes the data structures more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And=
 it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility =
to those who would use the spec.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u>=
</u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.exam=
ple.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089=
6153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.=
com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7=
604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/=
Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;ev=
ent_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRes=
etExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374408=
96153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615=
3279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwo=
rdResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;e=
vent&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9&quo=
t;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quo=
t;extensions&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwo=
rdResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440=
896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/p=
asswordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related even=
ts sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=
=A0 It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the relate=
d events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the =
recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signature=
s.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a nam=
e=3D"m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5=
683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089=
6153279834cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@=
ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089=
6153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<spa=
n class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><b>On Behalf Of<sp=
an class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt<br=
><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>T=
uesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jo=
nes@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com<=
/a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-even=
t@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440=
896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt =
(IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b=
>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>R=
e: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Pleas=
e direct me to a proposal that has a &quot;primary&quot; and &quot;secondar=
y&quot; events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to enga=
ge in the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I thin=
k having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver must dea=
l with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlated events =
in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42=
 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><=
/div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-wid=
th:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5p=
t 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,32,96)">I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the eff=
ort at different times.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort =
builds momentum.=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there when previous cons=
ensus calls were taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note that I have specific technical object=
ions to the specific proposed changes being discussed as well.=C2=A0 Curren=
tly all events in the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I u=
nderstand them, revert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprima=
ry=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax f=
or the two classes.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, addin=
g no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><s=
pan class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">Mic=
hael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.=
hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63=
37440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Ya=
ron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon=
.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.or=
g" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279=
834cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SE=
T?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#3=
9;t look closely at a specification until last call is made. Additionally, =
we are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for ver=
y long. While some of the participants have been working on this for a whil=
e, many have not, and we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it i=
s important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety o=
f profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that p=
roperties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and=
 not be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it i=
s expected that as different groups profile it, there will be additional fe=
edback.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of S=
ET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at ho=
w to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, ther=
e have been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think t=
here was consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expr=
essed concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session=
.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the re=
maining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think=
 we will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">We also have a number of other documents that are not in last cal=
l, and we don&#39;t have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there ar=
e still a number of documents to work through before we have all the bits f=
or someone to work with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good pr=
ogress since the last IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this mo=
mentum and finalize all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31,=
 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft=
.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153=
279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;b=
order-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in=
 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level =
of frustration with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent=
 Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because pe=
ople keep trying to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensus.=
=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC re=
spondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=
=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus=
 positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.=C2=A0 Counten=
ancing wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extr=
eme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"=
>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience,=
 if we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay=
.=C2=A0 It does something simple and useful.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s ju=
st ship it, so people can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mi=
ke</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_6337440896153279834_m_-=
3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-43777877=
55873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rg=
b(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><=
b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mon=
day, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896=
153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffe=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">ya=
ronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&g=
t;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing Lis=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:<=
/b><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-eve=
nt] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inl=
ine...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b=
r>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@=
gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408=
96153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misunde=
rstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot=
;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.o=
penid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI=
1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l=
09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/</a></span><span =
style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">account-<wbr>credentia=
l-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,san=
s-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:=
pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and an SCIM profil=
e event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://=
example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://=
example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">I&#39;m suggesting that two different events would be sent. E=
mbedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example. Jus=
t because you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but no=
t the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with dif=
ferent events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I have stated this is ver=
y different from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"=
cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as e=
vent<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I wa=
s working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot=
;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.e=
xample.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744=
0896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d524=
61fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d0=
8641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374=
40896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s=
/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;=
,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quo=
t;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{=
</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd1=
93bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&q=
uot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoratio=
n:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://sc=
im.example.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&qu=
ot;: [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
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m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.examp=
le.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://j=
hub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&q=
uot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dc=
redential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&a=
mp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTC=
aiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://sche=
mas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change=
-required</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&q=
uot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.=
example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374=
40896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>&q=
uot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil H=
unt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"=
border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"c=
ite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks for the comment=
s. I think we need to examine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension me=
chanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Does it =
follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=A0consider a use =
case where we have an identity management system that uses SCIM, but the SC=
IM system is also the underlying data store for Connect.=C2=A0 A Password r=
eset might generate the following event which has an extension (conveying r=
eset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 BOTH of which might =
be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd19=
3bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461=
fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
d<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds=
/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.=
com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot=
;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&quot;},<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"http=
s://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;C=
ourier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAt=
tempts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dty=
pe_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE=
&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ=
6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRj=
Falhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63=
37440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wb=
r>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credent=
ial-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98p=
eer&#39; and issued without preference by the transmitter. The receiver can=
 assign priority in its own context if that matters.</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">The new propos=
al:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.examp=
le.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&qu=
ot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b775=
4</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d=
7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_typ=
e=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;=
:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is=
 this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/=
scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/=
scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAtte=
mpts&quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urld=
efense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB=
65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVn=
rZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tv=
yDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.=
net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A65637=
4=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=
=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://=
idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6=
337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</=
a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extensions have =
a different format. The same complaint about the original stands.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the rece=
iver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested =
structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.c=
om</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;:=
 [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=
=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754<=
/a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<=
a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d=
7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_typ=
e=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_ev=
ent-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZ=
mr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyD=
Jz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>pen=
id.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id=
&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u=
></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above,=
 the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old fo=
rmat (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* F=
ollowing the top layer pattern of singular event=C2=A0 Note that this leads=
 to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<=
wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;=
: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;:=
 &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593=
b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374408=
96153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615=
3279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d524=
61fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08=
641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744=
0896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/=
5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ev=
ent&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV=
42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=
=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834=
cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u><=
/pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params=
:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 </span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=
=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_=
type=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordReset=
Ext" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408961532=
79834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/password=
ResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></p=
re></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">This format follows the proposed singular event format r=
ecursively and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to se=
arch the document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop wh=
en no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over a=
n array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cl=
oud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
roofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;=
c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dp=
ctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_=
w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896=
153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oc=
t 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Se=
rvices</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color=
:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none no=
ne;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0=
in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"=
>From:<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6=
958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-=
4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803=
49644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:=
25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141=
0265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834creme=
d" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</spa=
n></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854=
861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744089615327983=
4cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.c=
om</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft=
.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153=
279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing Lis=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span=
 class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024=
6660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answe=
rs your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgro=
und-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t=
 see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification to=
 make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richann=
a]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is e=
asier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use c=
ases that require more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many re=
asons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. =
Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing st=
atements about largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AN=
D RISC password reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one =
a complement to the other?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to incl=
ude these events in the same SET? They are likely being generated by differ=
ent systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed =
by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being tra=
nsmitted over different event streams. I know the latter would be the case =
for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send t=
hese events separately? What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally,=
 since the signature is over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers i=
ndependently route separate events from a single token without either losin=
g the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing all inform=
ation in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.[/richan=
na]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-p=
osition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multipl=
e events payloads expressing different statements about the same transactio=
n - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile=
 defines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a p=
ure extension)=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I h=
ave suggested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple ti=
mes now. If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:white">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limit=
ed by specific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement =
that making event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions=
 complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0=
<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(19=
5,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u=
><u></u></div></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in">=
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;ba=
ckground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It res=
ults in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which I thi=
nk we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-positi=
on:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs h=
ave ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET=
 could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0i=
n"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white=
;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">The=
y are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they wer=
e from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extensi=
on of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224=
);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-rep=
eat:initial initial">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-pos=
ition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases f=
or one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195=
,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgro=
und-repeat:initial initial">They are not actually related to one another in=
 any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"m=
argin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);backgro=
und-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initi=
al initial">Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles =
may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wants to bl=
ock 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to=
 ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express =
multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those ar=
e already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">P=
hil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:white">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u=
></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independenti=
d<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indep=
endentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0H=
aTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxu=
eoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed =
m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>www.independentid.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408=
96153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt=
@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;back=
ground-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;back=
ground-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color=
:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plurality o=
f events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question if a=
 plurality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be diffic=
ult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &quot=
;txn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate eve=
nts on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot; o=
n the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to cor=
relate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SE=
T is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An imp=
lementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multip=
le events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick one wa=
y and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating acro=
ss multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there is some=
thing I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:=
Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font=
-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<sp=
an class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980=
246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781=
561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-=
left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;m=
argin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that ca=
se, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the definition =
of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications SHOULD def=
ine the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. For exampl=
e, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single event stat=
ement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815610=
80m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456=
080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10=
, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"bo=
rder-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb=
(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cit=
e"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:initia=
l initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s ration=
ale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have=
 to be true for all events.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486=
1410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-e=
vent-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004creme=
d m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*=
Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Even=
ts Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*S=
ubject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annab=
elle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profili=
ng Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that=
 extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability i=
ssues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggestin=
g a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to =
complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and unl=
oad one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br=
><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose =
extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items =
like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other =
general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where=
 additional data might be required. Even though there is no current planned=
 use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From Di=
fferent Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><b=
r>In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events=
 in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did =
not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out =
multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expr=
essing slightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee =
some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the exte=
nsion.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (=
these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is prob=
ably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different =
SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RIS=
C session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transa=
ction as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change=
 causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correla=
te by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-=
node delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, but=
 I would not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC d=
oes not want to express multiple events does not make this true for other p=
rofiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was perform=
ed and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 T=
he events are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion=
 From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events=
 are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be re=
quired to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. Whi=
le txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it c=
an be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node, =
multi-threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note tha=
t I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event attrib=
ute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<spa=
n class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802=
46660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2D=
archive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk=
AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS=
3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web=
/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781=
561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-=
2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&a=
mp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV=
7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/curre=
nt/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I interp=
reted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions =
it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is fr=
ee to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br=
><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independ=
entid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3=
A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7=
qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1=
q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43=
77787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349=
644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
oofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw=
&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://<wbr>www.independentid.co=
m</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>=
<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776=
980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510=
29318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=
=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834=
02937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666070=
3m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional=
 complexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99v=
e discussed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the cu=
rrent consensus there is that RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC =
events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identifie=
d ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ca=
ses for multiple events per token that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token =
spec, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for a=
n =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member =
whose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined =
in a Profiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be =
empty, or MAY contain additional members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by t=
he Profiling Specification.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET fr=
om section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;4d3559ec67=
504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;iss&quot;: &q=
uot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
36456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://sc=
im.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63=
37440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834=
cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example=
.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d767=
6ee7</span></a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wb=
r>eate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;=
: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408961532798=
34cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.examp=
le.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &=
quot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&q=
uot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that ca=
nnot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identif=
ied three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ev=
ent extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensio=
ns=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set=
 resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined =
in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it =
clear in the data structure that there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at a=
ll.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my =
proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly us=
eful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was=
 brought up in the context of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft=
 event names to standardized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 th=
e event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines th=
e txn claim as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens t=
hat relate to the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D=
"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029=
37781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4=
026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ann=
abelle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Servi=
ces<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Id-event mailing list<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026=
236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-eve=
nt@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_633744=
0896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-even=
t@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
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5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>=
&gt;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385=
4861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps=
-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1Yu=
mCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzj=
WwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&amp;s=3D=
X8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple=
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29318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i<wbr>etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2D<wbr>event&amp;d=
=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW<wbr>HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10<wbr>&amp=
;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEiv<wbr>zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANn<w=
br>GVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSib<wbr>Ec&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eV<=
wbr>I0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D</span></a><br><br><br><br>_________________=
_____________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"=
mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" =
class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpo=
int.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=
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zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxur=
uib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374408961532=
79834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p></b=
lockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>______________________________<wbr>=
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br>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote=
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ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"></span><u></u><u></u=
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t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-siz=
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pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
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le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple">Id-event=
@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans=
-serif"><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp=
;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;c=
olor:purple">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP=
1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcF<wbr>sj-2tDkn31Auxuru=
ib9KATkRlQG1iw<wbr>&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu<wbr>4zbhcW001fK02EX=
s&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif=
;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">______________________________<wbr>_________________</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><spa=
n style=3D"background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backg=
round-repeat:initial initial">Id-event mailing list</span><br></span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-color:w=
hite;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"=
>Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8=
Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp=
;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDlt=
CwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-=
color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial i=
nitial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet=
<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpct=
yXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX<wbr>4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ=
9CZkkGiec<wbr>&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp<wbr>-MJ20ui2nm46QSz0&amp=
;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br cle=
ar=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtwar=
e.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&a=
mp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6M=
D0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DwtgD3Np0vyhLdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx=
0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337=
440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr>__________=
_______<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2D=
event&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&am=
p;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD=
0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVR=
zwc&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63374=
40896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent=
&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&am=
p;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZm=
r9_uGC<wbr>Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w<wbr>&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cY=
Be-Gg1D<wbr>VPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockq=
uote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br cle=
ar=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtwar=
e.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&a=
mp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktc=
magv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDap=
wO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337=
440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all=
"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<span class=3D"m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><u></u><u></u></font></span></div></div><span class=3D"m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtw=
are.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE=
&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZk=
tcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyD=
apwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_63=
37440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781=
561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>mail list to learn about projects=
 I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
font></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D=
"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple=
-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvl=
ZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qu=
jrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDT=
WARE</a><span class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>mail l=
ist to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></font></span></div></div><span class=3D"m_6337440=
896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!im=
portant">______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;disp=
lay:inline!important">Id-event mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255)"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndO=
XwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgrou=
nd-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr=
>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCga=
WHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPp=
uYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZ<wbr>ktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa=
0qhlo<wbr>&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZu<wbr>KaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;e=
=3D</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></font></span></div></blockquote></=
div><br></div></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>____=
_____________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" class=3D"m_6337440896153279834cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From nobody Wed Nov  1 15:06:44 2017
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:06:25 -0700
Cc: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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I don't see multi variants. I see multiple parts

For example you have all the risc events

Not to support implicit federation users (which have to be identified by one=
 or more identifiers), you might define a utility event profile which contai=
ns attributes for email, telephone, username etc.

If you didn't get both parts of the set as one set it would have different m=
eaning or be considered malformed.=20

The advantage in risc is not having to have a tonne of optional id attribute=
s in every event.=20

The point here is reasonable flexibility for profilers to decide.=20

Finally i already gave the overlapped risc/scim password reset case.=20

Phil

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote=
:
>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wro=
te:
>> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design. T=
he goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However mul=
tiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the e=
xample given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>>=20
>> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have t=
wo representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version tha=
t they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>=20
> Yes, and I think this is well understood.
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to i=
t being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>=20
> I don't think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantic=
s between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other wa=
ys to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple representations=
 of the same event?
>=20
> The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct SETs=
, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though. Events a=
re created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants the SCIM or th=
e RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in configuration (the=
re is a proposal how to capture that).
>=20
> Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple va=
riants all at once?
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>=
 wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same typ=
e).  The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.  I=
t currently states:
>>>>> events
>>>>>       The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statemen=
ts
>>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>>>       logical event that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT b=
e
>>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>>=20
>>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) fo=
r multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities)=
 needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force mult=
iple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be d=
elivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets al=
l of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state d=
atabase is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>>=20
>>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate e=
vents, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receivers h=
ave to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is unrelate=
d to this proposal.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, d=
eeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.
>>>>=20
>>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts bet=
ween profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft and ob=
serve the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (=
understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>>=20
>>>> Phil
>>>>=20
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amaz=
on.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be i=
ncluded in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyw=
ay, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario=
 that they have to support.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are agai=
n:
>>>>> Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the sin=
gle event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two even=
ts A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>> A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as i=
f they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>> A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>>> A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the tr=
ansmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receiver=
.
>>>>> Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different profil=
es may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>> Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET. T=
his forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information necess=
ary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle=
" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil H=
unt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recipie=
nt.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to correla=
te and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the s=
ame logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with a=
ll the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with=
 no correlation over time then required.
>>>>> =20
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>> =20
>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <=
richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (=
IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensi=
ons of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think=
 this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as w=
ith many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does n=
ot understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There=
 should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile=
 that created the event format to start off with.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not s=
ure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the event=
 is well defined with=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>> =20
>>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in=
 one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a=
 reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a prefe=
rence, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many u=
se cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a=
 receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events a=
s not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one e=
vent per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is chall=
enging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft=
.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this ch=
aracteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary pass=
wordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which could=
 have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not=
 less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing fl=
exibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> {
>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D:=
 {
>>>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>>>            }
>>>>>>          }
>>>>>>        }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events=
 sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It f=
orces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related events (=
or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipients t=
o do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dick H=
ardt
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle=
 <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hun=
t (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" e=
vents. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in the d=
iscussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a recei=
ver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correla=
ted events in the same SET.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft=
.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort a=
t different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds mome=
ntum.  I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were t=
aken.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the speci=
fic proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the s=
et have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a=
 state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecond=
ary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99=
s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>                                                                 -- M=
ike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ie=
tf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events M=
ailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specif=
ication until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3=
rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the parti=
cipants have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we are loo=
king for consensus across the WG.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel i=
t is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety=
 of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think that p=
roperties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile and n=
ot be included in SecEvent.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups p=
rofile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number o=
f issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SE=
T.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of=
 changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before t=
he WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the design o=
f SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining=
 issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will=
 need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, a=
nd we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a=
 number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone=
 to work with.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF mee=
ting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the doc=
uments in a timely manner.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration wi=
th the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=
=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revis=
it decisions that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable=
 for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=
=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consens=
us positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenanci=
ng wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, i=
f we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  I=
t does something simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so p=
eople can rely on it.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabel=
le <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Event=
s Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Inline...
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile e=
vent=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-creden=
tial-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding o=
ne in the other does not make sense.
>>>>>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this=
 does not mean others are not valid.=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (bu=
t not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with d=
ifferent events.=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple dis=
tinct events in one SET.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same leve=
l as event
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt"=
,
>>>>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-ty=
pe/account-credential-change-required",
>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"      =20
>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequen=
ces of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extens=
ion mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). Doe=
s it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity mana=
gement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying dat=
a store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event wh=
ich has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from R=
ISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and O=
IDC. =20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>   }
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued withou=
t preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own=
 context if that matters.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> The new proposal:
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pas=
swordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>>>>>    }   =20
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. T=
he same complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this lea=
ds to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/sece=
vent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>>         {=20
>>>>>>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>>>>>>>>>           }     =20
>>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends=
. It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>>>>>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that=
 this leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/sece=
vent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:=
passwordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/=
event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursivel=
y and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the d=
ocument for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richann=
a@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.J=
ones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID E=
vents Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reaso=
n why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D singular?
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer=
 semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unle=
ss there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are g=
ood, some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely t=
he *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.  A=
 RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  Do t=
hey overlap or are they distinct? =20
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>>>>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in th=
e same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at differen=
t times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on t=
he receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different ev=
ent streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even=
 if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What=
 value is gained in combining them?
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the ev=
ent objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single tok=
en without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event=
 or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any event i=
n the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements abo=
ut the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to=
 an existing event type (a pure extension)=20
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an=
 event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point t=
hem out.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited b=
y specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anyt=
hing. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) an=
d potentially conflicting.=20
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>>>>>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event use c=
ase, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of tw=
o events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>>>>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>>>>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>>>>>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>>>>>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles m=
ay want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have t=
o establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to=
 eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you re=
ferring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/r=
ichanna]
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the w=
ord "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really req=
uired in SET.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to=
 correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system wil=
l certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating even=
ts on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on=
 the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds=
 complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a sing=
le SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I pref=
er we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support c=
orrelating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@g=
mail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add=
 to the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event state=
ments, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require=
 this claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be tr=
ue for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                              =
    -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behal=
f Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per S=
ET?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles lead=
s to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Even=
t payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and=
 conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a p=
arser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have i=
ndependent structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not re=
lated to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would=
 not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose ite=
ms. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data mig=
ht be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good r=
eason to rule this out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Event=
s from a single family like RISC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct=
 RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a ti=
me. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to=
 rule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profil=
e is expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the pr=
imary and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just=
 possibilities):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapp=
ing events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchanne=
l Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing m=
ultiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple ef=
fects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system. =
  The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this c=
apability.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events=
 does not make this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed=
 and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The event=
s are related but express different data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the=
 Same Transaction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e=
.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or h=
andled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=
=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given dist=
ributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to design=
ate primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not acce=
pted. See:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg0=
0406.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg0=
0140.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the rece=
iver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI a=
nd the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RI=
SC event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing m=
ultiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional=
 complexity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed=
 this in the OIDF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is tha=
t RISC will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SE=
T, having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful=
 of use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have rais=
ed. With
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition o=
f the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event To=
ken spec, and replacing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D claim (singular):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose val=
ue is a URI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Speci=
fication.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additio=
nal members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with t=
his change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.=
com/>",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593=
b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d76=
76ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd=
6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password",=
 "emails"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs t=
hat cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified t=
hree use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the=
 event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9C=
extensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advan=
tage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a sin=
gle primary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for=
 confusion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary eve=
nt at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my pro=
posed text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating c=
lients
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In th=
is case,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the log=
ical event,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlat=
ing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ww=
w.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQ=
cxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5=
byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSibEc&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58=
ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I a=
m working on!
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9m=
jjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001=
fK02EXs&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0=
HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm=
46QSz0&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_u=
GCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhV=
Rzwc&e=3D
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am wo=
rking on!
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am wor=
king on!
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am work=
ing on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma=
ilman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZkt=
cmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0=
&e=3D
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DuNiWQlyKGTu-9p5qJLR=
S1F-3yKXpDAB7KtpkCDc_JCU&s=3DF8_j8RZDlbUP1p-1QfgOEnrZO-3Iag7Yul1NK1xp4Js&e=3D=


--Apple-Mail-8E597DA8-8B5E-4598-A08C-D9E469A70D93
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I don't see multi variants. I see mult=
iple parts</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMai=
lSignature">For example you have all the risc events</div><div id=3D"AppleMa=
ilSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Not to support implici=
t federation users (which have to be identified by one or more identifiers),=
 you might define a utility event profile which contains attributes for emai=
l, telephone, username etc.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature">If you didn't get both parts of the set as one s=
et it would have different meaning or be considered malformed.&nbsp;</div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">The ad=
vantage in risc is not having to have a tonne of optional id attributes in e=
very event.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"A=
ppleMailSignature">The point here is reasonable flexibility for profilers to=
 decide.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Appl=
eMailSignature">Finally i already gave the overlapped risc/scim password res=
et case.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 1, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Marius S=
curtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">mscurtescu@google.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at=
 2:46 PM, William Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@g=
oogle.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Perhaps I can t=
ry and explain the original intent of the current design. The goal was alway=
s that a SET represents a single logical event. However multiple systems may=
 have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the example given ori=
ginally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.<div><br></div><div>A g=
ood analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have two re=
presentations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version that the=
y understand and ignore the one they don't.</div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Yes, and I think this is well understood.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div=
><div>I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due t=
o it being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.</di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think this is the main conc=
ern or cause for confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Annabelle, I underst=
and your concerns regarding confusion of the semantics between the JSON synt=
ax and the specification language. Are there other ways to resolve that with=
out removing the ability for multiple representations of the same event?</di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The argument is that multiple repre=
sentations can be sent as distinct SETs, if really needed. In practice this w=
ill happen quite rare though. Events are created for a specific receiver, th=
e receiver either wants the SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they should be able=
 to specify that in configuration (there is a proposal how to capture that).=
</div><div><br></div><div>Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver m=
ust receive multiple variants all at once?</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D=
"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wor=
d">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same type)=
.&nbsp; The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). &nbsp;=
<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple=
 event SETS.&nbsp; It currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080newp=
age" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0p=
x">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The spe=
c has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple s=
eparate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing to b=
e sent as a single message.&nbsp; It would be INSECURE to force multiple SET=
s because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be delivered=
 at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all of the=
 SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.&nbsp; A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to re=
ceive separate events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". B=
ut, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so=
 it is unrelated to this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div=
><br></div><div>If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a=
 complex, deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace con=
flicts.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it comp=
licating and limiting. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has v=
ery clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we s=
hould stay on track with the current draft and observe the normative text if=
 not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may d=
isagree).</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:b=
reak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D=
"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D=
"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Ide=
ntity Cloud Services Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DuNiWQlyKGTu-9p5qJLRS1F-3=
yKXpDAB7KtpkCDc_JCU&amp;s=3DlrcWtLo6ZA_2poYZwmymiiicNlwykyQJok3GeccGAYY&amp;=
e=3D" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">rich=
anna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080WordS=
ection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unless the profile guarantees th=
at such related events will always be included in the same SET, then the rec=
eiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and multiple events per SET is ju=
st giving the receiver another scenario that they have to support.<u></u><u>=
</u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99ve already p=
rovided several other reasons why we should not support multiple tokens per S=
ET that no one has addressed. Here they are again:<u></u><u></u></div><ol st=
art=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListPara=
graph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for th=
e single event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case=
.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguou=
s semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean a=
ny of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;ma=
rgin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683=
402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are related to the same logical=
 event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a c=
ommon txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.=
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u><=
/u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u>=
</u></li><li class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are not actually related to one anot=
her in any way, and the transmitter bundled them together because they were g=
oing to the same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles m=
ay want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li clas=
s=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the enti=
re SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more informati=
on necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.<u></u=
><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u>=
</u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Amazon =E2=
=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nb=
sp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-styl=
e:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);pad=
ding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span clas=
s=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike J=
ones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><=
/b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events=
 Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving comp=
lexity to the issuer over the recipient.&nbsp; In my view, it=E2=80=99s more=
 complex for recipients to have to correlate and process a sequence of multi=
ple SETs providing information about the same logical event, and validate N s=
ignatures, than to receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event=
 as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then requ=
ired.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a nam=
e=3D"m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080__Mai=
lEndCompose" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed crem=
ed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>=
]<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><s=
pan class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156108=
0Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman,=
 Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amaz=
on.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.o=
rg" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:=
</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for mult=
iple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple of points:<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1) Th=
e example is how to have a predefined extension point for extensions of a sp=
ecific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I think this is ov=
erly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as with many ot=
her JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does not understa=
nd, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. There should not=
 be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profile that creat=
ed the event format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI=
 is much harder to code against. I'm not sure why Marius had that in his exa=
mple. Per the event, the type of the event is well defined with&nbsp;<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;color:rgb(=
80,0,80)">"event_type": "</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/pa=
sswordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">https://exampl=
e.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.=
5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">",</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained in on=
e set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a re=
ason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a preferen=
ce, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use c=
ases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a rec=
eiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as n=
ot all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one eve=
nt per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is challen=
ging to implement, speaking from experience.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u>=
</u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left=
-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin=
:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly th=
is characteristic.&nbsp; The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a pr=
imary passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, w=
hich could have been simply another event value in the current draft.</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaki=
ng change makes the data structures more complicated - not less.&nbsp; And i=
t makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing flexibility to t=
hose who would use the spec.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></=
u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<=
wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a h=
ref=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<=
a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
ed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;=
],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://exa=
mple.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=
",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr=
>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font=
-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"extensions":=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a href=3D=
"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/password=
ResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events s=
haring a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.&nbsp; I=
t forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related even=
ts (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipie=
nts to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not every p=
rofile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set but t=
here=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- M=
ike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-3151445958451029318_m_7=
476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndComp=
ose" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span class=3D"m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>=
Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, Oc=
tober 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>M=
ike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_=
5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-ev=
ent] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me t=
o a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary" events. I agree that is un=
desirable. I would also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we ca=
n drive clarity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is that there is one=
 event per SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event per SET adds com=
plexity as a receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET a=
s well as correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue,=
 Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear you on the f=
act that different people have joined the effort at different times.&nbsp; T=
hat=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.&nbsp; I get tha=
t not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should note t=
hat I have specific technical objections to the specific proposed changes be=
ing discussed as well.&nbsp; Currently all events in the set have the same s=
yntax.&nbsp; The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a state where=
 there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D=
 events, with different syntax for the two classes.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s nee=
dlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wb=
r>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dic=
k Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conve=
rted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hu=
nt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheff=
er &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman=
, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events M=
ailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike=
<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specificati=
on until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd W=
G meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the participa=
nts have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we are looking=
 for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is a framework that we=
 expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent speci=
fications are easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantic=
s make sense. I also think that properties that are specific to a profile sh=
ould be left to that profile and not be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since=
 this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups profile it, th=
ere will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in t=
he RISC profile of SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC W=
G has looked at how to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&=
nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for ove=
r a year, there have been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don'=
t think there was consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others h=
ad expressed concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW s=
ession.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the r=
emaining issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think=
 we will need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.&nbsp;<u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call, an=
d we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a n=
umber of documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone t=
o work with.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the=
 last IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finali=
ze all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jon=
es &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid=
;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of=
 frustration with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent To=
ken spec.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people=
 keep trying to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensus.&nbsp=
; It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC responde=
nts said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</=
span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=
=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus positions that=
 have been debated and affirmed over and over.&nbsp; Countenancing wholesale=
 changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u=
><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></=
u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far b=
etter than good enough as-is.&nbsp; In my experience, if we start redesignin=
g it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.&nbsp; It does somethin=
g simple and useful.&nbsp; Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can=
 rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><a name=3D"m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_56834029377815610=
80_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp=
;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none n=
one;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0=
in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (I=
DM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
>Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing Li=
st &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [=
Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I=
nline...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b=
r></p>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.har=
dt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><p></p></div><blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<=
u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event&nb=
sp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5p=
t">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas=
.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI=
1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l0=
9sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc=
/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-s=
erif">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',s=
erif;white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and a=
n SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">"<a href=3D"https://examp=
le.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=
=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm suggesting that two different events would be=
 sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense.<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;It is a hypothetical example=
. Just because you disagree on this does not mean others are not valid.&nbsp=
;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but no=
t the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set with diff=
erent events.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I have stated this is very dif=
ferent from asserting multiple distinct events in one SET.&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I=
 think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level as event<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from An=
nabelle's proposed format.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margi=
n-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4=
e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&=
nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',=
serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461f=
a5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516=
b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&n=
bsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/password=
ResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://=
example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &=
nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4=
e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&=
nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',=
serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461f=
a5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://j=
hub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516=
b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&n=
bsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcrede=
ntial-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7=
qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OH=
elH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/account-=
<wbr>credential-change-required</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event"=
: {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=
=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=
=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>"&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, O=
ct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.co=
m" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:no=
ne none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);=
padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to e=
xamine the consequences of the proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what cause=
s most of the issue is the proposed extension mechanism in the payload (poss=
ibly using events in a recursive way). Does it follow the old format or the n=
ew?<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Let=E2=80=99s &nbsp;consider a use case where we have an identity man=
agement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying da=
ta store for Connect.&nbsp; A Password reset might generate the following ev=
ent which has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement=
 from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver usi=
ng SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd=
0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.=
example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.ex=
ample.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d086=
41d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "id":"44f6142df96b=
d6ab61e7521d<wbr>9"},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "=
<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>=
t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense=
.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2=
Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
nE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC=
Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRj=
Falhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D=
,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>=
/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I=
n the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without preference=
 by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if t=
hat matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"=
>The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3=
d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "au=
d": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa=
5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a hr=
ef=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<=
wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:p=
arams:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;note =E2=80=
=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts=
":5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_=
8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.=
net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &=
nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>"</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-events or extensions have a=
 different format. The same complaint about the original stands.</span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC mo=
re).&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',ser=
if">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7=
754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.=
example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'=
,serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604=
516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9C=
event_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_=
event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB6=
5eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZ=
mr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJ=
z40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-=
req<wbr>uired</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a h=
ref=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "=
urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset":</span><u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'=
,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; {&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=
=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a hre=
f=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/pass=
wordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5=
},<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp; </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre=
><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u><=
/u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div=
><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the abov=
e, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It follows the old f=
ormat (or should it follow the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'=
,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* Following t=
he top layer pattern of singular event&nbsp; Note that this leads to a tripl=
e nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797=
584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 145=
8496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim=
.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example=
.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593=
b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"http=
s://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d76=
04516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-=
size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3=
A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;=
s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secev=
ent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-cha=
nge-req<wbr>uired<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:=
"<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.exam=
ple.com<wbr>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:param=
s:<wbr>scim:event:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <=
/span>"id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://example.com/s=
cim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; "resetAttempts":5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format fo=
llows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. N=
ote that the parser has to continue to search the document for things that a=
ren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attrib=
ute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></=
div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracl=
e Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&a=
mp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.indep=
endentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D=
"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On O=
ct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Identity Services</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-widt=
h:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755=
873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil=
 Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracl=
e.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026530=
1m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873=
208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ie=
tf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><spa=
n style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@mi=
crosoft.com</span></a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Ev=
ents Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-eve=
nt@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486=
1410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span></b>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbs=
p;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
I hope this answers your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I c=
an=E2=80=99t see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the justi=
fication to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=
[richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics a=
nd is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are=
 use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many r=
easons for multiple events in a SET.&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. S=
ome of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">1.&nbsp; Multiple event payloads expressing statement=
s about largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC p=
assword reset.&nbsp; A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complem=
ent to the other?&nbsp; Do they overlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events i=
n the same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at diff=
erent times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems=
 on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over differe=
nt event streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver.=
 Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately?=
 What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbs=
p;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally, since the signature is over t=
he SET and not the event objects, Receivers independently route separate eve=
nts from a single token without either losing the ability to verify the auth=
enticity of the event or sharing all information in the SET with every syste=
m handling any event in the token.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)"=
>&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repe=
at:initial initial">2.&nbsp; Multiple events payloads expressing different s=
tatements about the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session C=
ancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/rich=
anna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color=
:white">3.&nbsp; A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on t=
o an existing event type (a pure extension)&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(195,70,224)">[richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within=
 an event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please poin=
t them out.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;background-color:white">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &n=
bsp;2 could be limited by specific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u=
></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am no=
t in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything. For one is ma=
kes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially confl=
icting.&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(195,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bott=
om:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:wh=
ite;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">I=
t results in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which I=
 think we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs h=
ave ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET c=
ould mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D=
"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><=
li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;backg=
round-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are r=
elated to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from d=
ifferent SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:ini=
tial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-co=
lor:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;co=
lor:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initi=
al;background-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases for one another.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-co=
lor:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial init=
ial">They are not actually related to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u><=
/li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Claim semantics b=
ecome harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the same claim=
s in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we=
 have to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not ove=
rlap to eliminate the need to express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you r=
eferring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/=
richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><di=
v><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white">Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Service=
s Architect<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:white">@independentid<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp=
;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__W=
GCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></=
a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@or=
acle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background=
-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick=
.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u>=
</u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a plu=
rality of events, you use the word "may", which leads me to question if a pl=
urality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be difficult for a d=
istributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the di=
stributed system will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject=
 -- correlating events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly si=
mple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nb=
sp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color=
:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I thi=
nk that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the same subject,=
 so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and adds complexity with n=
o clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or sen=
d a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both=
. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to s=
upport correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know i=
f there is something I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<spa=
n class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m=
-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803=
49644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@g=
mail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775=
5873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><block=
quote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;borde=
r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8=
pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In that case, let's add text to th=
at effect, e.g. we could add to the definition of the "events" claim:<br><br=
>Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MA=
Y restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim t=
o contain only a single event statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340=
2937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m=
4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10=
/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote sty=
le=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D=
"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-position:init=
ial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s ration=
ale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=80=99t have to b=
e true for all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.<br><br>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
36456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-=
event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-eve=
nt-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Mon=
day, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&g=
t;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number o=
f concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profiling Independence / Keeping Event=
 Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating that extensions should be handled by=
 profiles leads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrud=
es on the Event payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential l=
imitations and conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current fo=
rmat allows a parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which c=
an each have independent structure.<br><br>General extensions<br><br>The pro=
posal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to any specific e=
vent. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would not want to block the a=
bility to add meta-data or other general purpose items. We can also anticipa=
te some delivery scenarios where additional data might be required. Even tho=
ugh there is no current planned use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<=
br><br>Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a=
 single family like RISC)<br><br>In our RISC session we discussed expressing=
 multiple distinct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one R=
ISC event at a time. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99=
t see a reason to rule out multi-events from different families at the SET l=
evel. Each profile is expressing slightly different things about the same ev=
ent.<br><br>I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the prima=
ry and which is the extension.&nbsp; There may not be a clear winner.<br><br=
>A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities=
):<br><br>* It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping e=
vents from different SET profiles in one SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchanne=
l Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to repres=
ent a single transaction as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g.=
 a password change causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple e=
vents and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi=
-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has not disc=
ussed this, but I would not want to block this capability.&nbsp; IOW - Just b=
ecause RISC does not want to express multiple events does not make this true=
 for other profiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset w=
as performed and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time=
.&nbsp; The events are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding C=
onfusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>=
If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) wou=
ld be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repea=
ts. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sur=
e it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-n=
ode, multi-threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note=
 that I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event att=
ribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<s=
pan class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156108=
0m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608=
0349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.pro=
ofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_=
current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBC=
GlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7=
Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/=
web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587=
3208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg0014=
0.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&am=
p;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2t=
Dkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnyl=
g&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/cu=
rrent/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I inte=
rpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions=
 it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is fr=
ee to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<br>=
<br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@independen=
tid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__=
www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBC=
GlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyX=
wSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><span c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43=
77787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262364560803496=
44apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;=
s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://=
<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span=
 style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208=
935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; On O=
ct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>=
<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561=
080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456=
080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ri=
channa@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wr=
ote:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allows for expre=
ssing multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same token, which introduc=
es additional complexity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambiguous semantics. W=
e=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC working group a=
nd the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; require th=
at RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; id=
entified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With<br>&nb=
sp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token s=
pec, and replacing it<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following definition for an =E2=
=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; event<br><br>&nb=
sp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a U=
RI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Spec=
ification.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contai=
n additional members<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by the Profiling Specific=
ation.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewrit=
ten with this change<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775=
5873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>{<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": "4=
d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "ia=
t": 1458496404,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://=
scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778=
7755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">htt<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&nbsp; "aud": [<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a h=
ref=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">=
https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a>"<wb=
r>,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://scim.e=
xample.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.c=
om/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>"<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp; ],<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<br><br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:cr<wbr=
>eate",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "ref": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://sc=
im.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>",<br><br>&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "=
password", "emails"]<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone in the working group have use cases for=
 SETs that cannot<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; be met by this proposed text? Within RISC=
, we identified three use<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; cases, with solutions outlined be=
low:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br><br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; object. A simple approach would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9C=
extensions=E2=80=9D member<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that is a list of event objects (=
or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as def=
ined in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; making=
 it clear in the data structure that there is a single primary<br>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at a=
ll.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; I would be fine with adding something like this to my p=
roposed text,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; if there is consensus that it is broadly usef=
ul.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Aliases*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was br=
ought up in the context of migrating clients<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft eve=
nt names to standardized event names. In this case,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; the eve=
nt transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; one using the old name and another using the new name.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; *Related Events*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The SET spec defines the txn claim a=
s a means of correlating<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; independent tokens that relate to t=
he same logical event.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013=
854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ________________=
______________<wbr>_________________<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing list<=
br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_=
5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769802466=
60703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mail=
to:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span class=3D"=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755=
873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">Id<wbr>-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377=
787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint=
.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DD=
wICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKu=
gCH0FkITSeGJxPEivzjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUU=
wWGFSibEc&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:p=
urple">https://urldefense.proofpoin<wbr>t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i<wbr=
>etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2D<wbr>event&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCg=
aW<wbr>HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10<wbr>&amp;r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPE=
iv<wbr>zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&amp;m=3Ds5byBe5KANn<wbr>GVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFS=
ib<wbr>Ec&amp;s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eV<wbr>I0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&amp;e=3D<=
/span></a><br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_______________=
__<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KAT=
kRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><=
u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>__________________=
____________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><br><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman=
_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCG=
lK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4=
zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>isti=
nfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"></span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958=
776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69587769=
80246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3D=
DwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9K=
ATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DLYN72GgKVhHsT6tAqBe-eMoWMvy_7dfFn1uZ0HK6YuQ&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">HARDTWARE</span></a><span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m69=
58776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mai=
l list to learn about projects I am working on!</span><u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">_______=
_______________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br></=
span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,s=
ans-serif;color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size=
:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br></span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2De=
vent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDk=
n31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu4zbhcW001fK02EXs&=
amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple">https://=
urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8P=
Zh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aL=
cLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcF<wbr>sj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw<wbr>&amp;s=
=3DWrMuQRwLV802iMQ4wYB1f2rFUGu<wbr>4zbhcW001fK02EXs&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;background-color:white;backgrou=
nd-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">_____________=
_________________<wbr>_________________</span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;f=
ont-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br><span style=3D"background-color:white;b=
ackground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Id-eve=
nt mailing list</span><br></span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;background-color:white;back=
ground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Id-event@=
ietf.org</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listin=
fo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0Ha=
TX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2=
nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple;=
background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat=
:initial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A=
__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX<wbr>4anNZfzX7pDsfK5=
f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec<wbr>&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp<wbr>-MJ20ui2nm46QSz=
0&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&=
nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br cle=
ar=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subsc=
ribe to the<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834=
02937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;=
s=3DwtgD3Np0vyhLdpEwUiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><bloc=
kquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing l=
ist<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2De=
vent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&a=
mp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman=
_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC<wbr>Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w<wbr>&amp;s=3D=
Oe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1D<wbr>VPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXp=
EVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span cl=
ass=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am workin=
g on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u><=
/u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></div=
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nt color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
6946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&am=
p;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5=
FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QE=
ip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><sp=
an class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></s=
pan></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
sIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-K=
vxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=
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6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to=
 learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></font></span></div></div><span class=3D"m_-31514459584510=
29318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(=
255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">__________________________=
____<wbr>_________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-sp=
ace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing list<=
/span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-ev=
ent@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.=
proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent=
&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea2=
1QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;=
e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=
=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>=
f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWH=
v<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq=
P<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZ<wbr>ktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhl=
o<wbr>&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZu<wbr>KaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;e=3D</a>=
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backg=
round-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>________________=
_<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-3151445958451029318m_747634=
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From: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:08:33 -0700
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To: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
Cc: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:00 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wrote=
:

> The receiver probably knows which version they want, but does the sender?
> Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email client to
> accept plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=93 not k=
nowing
> what you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my message.
>

Two solutions:
- since receiver knows what version they want they are going to only
consume that and ignore the other
- there is a proposal underway so that receivers can tell the sender
exactly what they want, no events dropped on the floor



> I think it would help if we broke this problem down into two parts. 1/ Ar=
e
> multi-format SETs desirable? That's been the design since the earliest
> version. 2/ What is the best representation of the SET based on what we
> decide for #1.
>

Yes, and #1 above is being challenged.



>
> My understanding was that the "events" plural (related to #2, the best
> representation of a SET) *was* in fact a concern, as people may skip the
> text and look directly at the JSON syntax, then jump to conclusions.
>
> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design=
.
>>> The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. Howev=
er
>>> multiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=
=93 the
>>> example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>>>
>>> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may hav=
e
>>> two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the versi=
on
>>> that they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, and I think this is well understood.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to
>>> it being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the
>>> semantics between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are t=
here
>>> other ways to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple
>>> representations of the same event?
>>>
>>
>> The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct
>> SETs, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though.
>> Events are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants th=
e
>> SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in
>> configuration (there is a proposal how to capture that).
>>
>> Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple
>> variants all at once?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com=
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same t=
ype).
>>>>> The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik).
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.
>>>>> It currently states:
>>>>>
>>>>> events
>>>>>       *The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statem=
ents
>>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
>>>>>       logical event* that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT=
 be
>>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec)
>>>>> for multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile
>>>>> familities) needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSE=
CURE
>>>>> to force multiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only al=
lows
>>>>> one SET to be delivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a s=
ingle
>>>>> receiver gets all of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-nod=
e
>>>>> environment at scale.  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=
=E2=80=9D in a common
>>>>> state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate
>>>> events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, rece=
ivers
>>>> have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is
>>>> unrelated to this proposal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex=
,
>>>>> deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace confli=
cts.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts
>>>>> between profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current dr=
aft
>>>>> and observe the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to
>>>>> multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always be
>>>>> included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across S=
ETs
>>>>> anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver anoth=
er
>>>>> scenario that they have to support.
>>>>>
>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not=
 support
>>>>> multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are agai=
n:
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for
>>>>>    the single event use case, which I think we all agree is the major=
ity use
>>>>>    case.
>>>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of
>>>>>    two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>       1. A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same
>>>>>       thing as if they were from different SETs that have a common tx=
n).
>>>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>>>       4. A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>>>       5. A and B are not actually related to one another in any way,
>>>>>       and the transmitter bundled them together because they were goi=
ng to the
>>>>>       same receiver.
>>>>>    3. Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different
>>>>>    profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>    4. Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire
>>>>>    SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more in=
formation
>>>>>    necessary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity=
.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman,
>>>>> Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <
>>>>> id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> *Subject: *RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the
>>>>> recipient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to h=
ave to
>>>>> correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing informati=
on
>>>>> about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to rece=
ive
>>>>> one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D fields, with
>>>>> no correlation over time then required.
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
>
>>>>> ]
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <
>>>>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for
>>>>> extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. M=
yself,
>>>>> I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively st=
atic,
>>>>> and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore prope=
rties
>>>>> it does not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as
>>>>> extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should onl=
y be
>>>>> done by the profile that created the event format to start off with.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not
>>>>> sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of t=
he
>>>>> event is well defined with
>>>>>
>>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained i=
n
>>>>> one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate event=
s as a
>>>>> reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a
>>>>> preference, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver =
as in
>>>>> many use cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more
>>>>> complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt=
 of
>>>>> multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is s=
impler
>>>>> to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with a =
URI as
>>>>> an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this
>>>>> characteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a pri=
mary
>>>>> passwordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, =
which
>>>>> could have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>>
>>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - not
>>>>> less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reduc=
ing
>>>>> flexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D:=
 {
>>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>>            }
>>>>>          }
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events
>>>>> sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=
  It
>>>>> forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related
>>>>> events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces =
the
>>>>> recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary
>>>>> signatures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D set but
>>>>> there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Di=
ck
>>>>> Hardt
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <
>>>>> id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"
>>>>> events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage=
 in
>>>>> the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a
>>>>> receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as wel=
l as
>>>>> correlated events in the same SET.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effort a=
t
>>>>> different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds=
 momentum.  I
>>>>> get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were ta=
ken.
>>>>>
>>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the
>>>>> specific proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all eve=
nts in
>>>>> the set have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, r=
evert
>>>>> us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with
>>>>> different syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=99s needlessly more=
 complicated,
>>>>> adding no actual value.
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                 --
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>>> *To:* Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <
>>>>> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>>> richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a
>>>>> specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up=
 on
>>>>> only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While =
some
>>>>> of the participants have been working on this for a while, many have =
not,
>>>>> and we are looking for consensus across the WG.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel i=
t
>>>>> is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a va=
riety
>>>>> of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think=
 that
>>>>> properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that prof=
ile
>>>>> and not be included in SecEvent.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups
>>>>> profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>>
>>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number o=
f
>>>>> issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use t=
he SET.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number of
>>>>> changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Be=
fore
>>>>> the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the =
design
>>>>> of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining
>>>>> issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think w=
e will
>>>>> need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.
>>>>>
>>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call,
>>>>> and we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are=
 still
>>>>> a number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for
>>>>> someone to work with.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF
>>>>> meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize a=
ll the
>>>>> documents in a timely manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <
>>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration with=
 the
>>>>> recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=
=E2=80=99ve been
>>>>> at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit deci=
sions
>>>>> that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable for o=
ver a year and
>>>>> the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks =
for me =E2=80=93 ship
>>>>> it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>
>>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus
>>>>> positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Counten=
ancing
>>>>> wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extre=
me!
>>>>>
>>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience, if=
 we start
>>>>> redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.  It d=
oes something
>>>>> simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can=
 rely on it.
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>>> *To:* Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman,
>>>>> Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <
>>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List <
>>>>> id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> Inline...
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile even=
t
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/ <https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_eve=
nt-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ym=
RQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>a=
ccount-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embedding one
>>>>> in the other does not make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this
>>>>> does not mean others are not valid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (but
>>>>> not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set =
with
>>>>> different events.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple
>>>>> distinct events in one SET.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same level a=
s
>>>>> event
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/sec
>>>>> event/risc/event-type/account-credential-change-required
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid=
.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qS=
C_w&s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&e=3D>
>>>>> ",
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>        }
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences
>>>>> of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed extension
>>>>> mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). =
Does
>>>>> it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>
>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity manageme=
nt system
>>>>> that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store=
 for
>>>>> Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event which h=
as an
>>>>> extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC=
.
>>>>> BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and=
 OIDC.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *The 03 spec currently would allow:*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>
>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>
>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>
>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>
>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>
>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>
>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_ri=
sc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
I_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD=
0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&=
e=3D>
>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>
>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>
>>>>>        }
>>>>>
>>>>>   }
>>>>>
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without pr=
eference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own co=
ntext if that matters.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *The new proposal:*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>
>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwor=
dReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>
>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>
>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>
>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>
>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\ <https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_=
risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6=
MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhk=
w&e=3D>
>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>
>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>
>>>>>        }
>>>>>
>>>>>      }
>>>>>
>>>>>    }
>>>>>
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format. The s=
ame complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this leads =
to a triple nested structure.*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>
>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent=
/risc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__s=
chemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzg=
U-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>
>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>
>>>>>         {
>>>>>
>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>
>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>
>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>
>>>>>           }
>>>>>
>>>>>         }
>>>>>
>>>>>       }
>>>>>
>>>>>    }
>>>>>
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it extends. It=
 follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>
>>>>> **OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note that th=
is leads to a triple nested structure.*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>>
>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>
>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>
>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>
>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>
>>>>>    ],
>>>>>
>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>
>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/secevent=
/risc/event-type/\ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__s=
chemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCX=
CgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzg=
U-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,
>>>>>
>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>
>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pass=
wordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>
>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/scim/even=
t/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>
>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>
>>>>>         }
>>>>>
>>>>>       }
>>>>>
>>>>>    }
>>>>>
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursively an=
d is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the docu=
ment for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=
=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5F=
VzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67=
yF_8u8_qSC_w&s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&e=3D>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <
>>>>> richanna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>> *To: *Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc: *Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <
>>>>> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <
>>>>> richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>
>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a reason why=
 not. The question should
>>>>> be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singul=
ar?
>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer sema=
ntics and is
>>>>> easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there ar=
e use
>>>>> cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>
>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are good,
>>>>> some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the
>>>>> *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset=
.  A
>>>>> RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other=
?  Do
>>>>> they overlap or are they distinct?
>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the sam=
e
>>>>> SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at differen=
t
>>>>> times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different system=
s on the
>>>>> receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over differen=
t event
>>>>> streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. E=
ven if
>>>>> it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? W=
hat value is
>>>>> gained in combining them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the event
>>>>> objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single =
token
>>>>> without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the e=
vent
>>>>> or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any =
event
>>>>> in the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about th=
e
>>>>> same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on to an
>>>>> existing event type (a pure extension)
>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an even=
t
>>>>> body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point t=
hem
>>>>> out.[/richanna]
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limited by
>>>>> specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies anything.
>>>>> For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) a=
nd
>>>>> potentially conflicting.
>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. It results in a more complex structure for the single event use
>>>>>    case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>    2. Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of
>>>>>    two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing
>>>>>       as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>       2. A is an extension of B.
>>>>>       3. B is an extension of A.
>>>>>       4. They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>       5. They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles
>>>>>    may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to
>>>>> establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overl=
ap to
>>>>> eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referri=
ng to
>>>>> event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richa=
nna]
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5F=
VzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h=
9mZ9CZkkGiec&s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&e=3D>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>
>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use the word
>>>>> "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really
>>>>> required in SET.
>>>>>
>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system to
>>>>> correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed syst=
em
>>>>> will certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correl=
ating
>>>>> events on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts on the
>>>>> same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and ad=
ds
>>>>> complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>
>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET
>>>>> with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I pref=
er we
>>>>> pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support
>>>>> correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could add to the
>>>>> definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>
>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements,
>>>>> and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may require=
 this
>>>>> claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>
>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D set must be a
>>>>> singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all events.  I t=
hink things
>>>>> are fine as-is.
>>>>>
>>>>>                                                                  --
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>> *Phil Hunt
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>
>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent
>>>>>
>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to mor=
e
>>>>> inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event p=
ayload
>>>>> space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and
>>>>> conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format all=
ows a
>>>>> parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can eac=
h have
>>>>> independent structure.
>>>>>
>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not related to
>>>>> any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I would n=
ot
>>>>> want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose i=
tems.
>>>>> We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data =
might
>>>>> be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no go=
od
>>>>> reason to rule this out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Multiple Events From Different Families (vs. Multiple Events from a
>>>>> single family like RISC)
>>>>>
>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC
>>>>> events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a t=
ime.
>>>>> We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason=
 to rule out
>>>>> multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile i=
s
>>>>> expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the primary an=
d
>>>>> which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibi=
lities):
>>>>>
>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping
>>>>> events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backcha=
nnel
>>>>> Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>
>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing multiple
>>>>> state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple eff=
ects).
>>>>> Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be
>>>>> challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.   The SCI=
M list
>>>>> has not discussed this, but I would not want to block this capability=
.  IOW
>>>>> - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple events does not=
 make
>>>>> this true for other profiles.
>>>>>
>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a
>>>>> Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The event=
s are
>>>>> related but express different data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Avoiding Confusion From Similar Events Originating from the Same
>>>>> Transaction
>>>>>
>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by
>>>>> txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or h=
andled
>>>>> as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=
=80=99m not
>>>>> sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given distribut=
ed
>>>>> multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to designate
>>>>> primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not
>>>>> accepted. See:
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00406.htm=
l
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aL=
cLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwG=
bJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/msg00140.htm=
l
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aL=
cLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cS=
hV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the receiver to
>>>>> figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI an=
d the
>>>>> profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one RI=
SC
>>>>> event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5F=
VzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib=
9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>>>  <http://www.independentid.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independen=
tid.com&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5F=
VzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib=
9KATkRlQG1iw&s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&e=3D>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle
>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple
>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces additional
>>>>> complexity
>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in=
 the OIDF
>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is that RISC
>>>>> will
>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, havin=
g
>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use
>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have raised. With
>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the
>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spec=
, and replacing it
>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D clai=
m (singular):
>>>>>
>>>>>     event
>>>>>
>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose value is a
>>>>> URI
>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Specification=
.
>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain additional
>>>>> members
>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>
>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten with this
>>>>> change
>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>
>>>>>     {
>>>>>
>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>
>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>
>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.example.com/>",
>>>>>
>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>
>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>
>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>
>>>>>        ],
>>>>>
>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>
>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",
>>>>>
>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/User
>>>>> s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>
>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails=
"]
>>>>>
>>>>>        }
>>>>>
>>>>>     }
>>>>>
>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that
>>>>> cannot
>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three us=
e
>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>
>>>>>     **
>>>>>
>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>
>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event
>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=9Cextensi=
ons=E2=80=9D
>>>>> member
>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Ce=
vents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the advantage of
>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a single
>>>>> primary
>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusi=
on
>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at al=
l.
>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my proposed
>>>>> text,
>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>
>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>
>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migrating clients
>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In this case,
>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical
>>>>> event,
>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>
>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>
>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating
>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.
>>>>>
>>>>>     --
>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>
>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>
>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i
>>>>> etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW
>>>>> HvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=3DJBm5biRrKugCH0FkITSeGJxPEiv
>>>>> zjWwlNKe4C_lLIGk&m=3Ds5byBe5KANnGVuAb1mAupEGoJn8XG5JIUUwWGFSib
>>>>> Ec&s=3DX8oRSq3IzlF7jiRAeZhXpR3eVI0I58ZFd4eEZfgyoIY&e=3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
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02EXs&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
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02EXs&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
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>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa=
0qhlo&s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&e=3D>
>>>>>  mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
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>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>> lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP
>>>>> kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo
>>>>> &s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu9rcORV0&e=3D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:00 PM, William Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">wdenniss=
@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">The receiver probably knows which version they want, but does the=
 sender? Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email client=
 to accept plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=93 not=
 knowing what you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my message.</di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Two solutions:</div><div>- since receive=
r knows what version they want they are going to only consume that and igno=
re the other</div><div>- there is a proposal underway so that receivers can=
 tell the sender exactly what they want, no events dropped on the floor</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><br></div><div>I think it would help if we broke this problem dow=
n into two parts. 1/ Are multi-format SETs desirable? That&#39;s been the d=
esign since the earliest version. 2/ What is the best representation of the=
 SET based on what we decide for #1.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Yes, and #1 above is being challenged.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><di=
v>My understanding was that the &quot;events&quot; plural (related to #2, t=
he best representation of a SET) <i>was</i> in fact=C2=A0a concern, as peop=
le may skip the text and look directly at the JSON syntax, then jump to con=
clusions.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">mscur=
tescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed=
, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Perhaps I can try a=
nd explain the original intent of the current design. The goal was always t=
hat a SET represents a single logical event. However multiple systems may h=
ave different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the example given orig=
inally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.<div><br></div><div>A g=
ood analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may have two r=
epresentations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version that t=
hey understand and ignore the one they don&#39;t.</div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Yes, and I think this is well understood.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><br></div><div>I&#39;m starting to regret the plural in &quot;events&quot;=
, it was pluralized due to it being an array, not because it represented mu=
ltiple logical events.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#3=
9;t think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.</div><div><br></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
br></div><div>Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of =
the semantics between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are t=
here other ways to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple r=
epresentations of the same event?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct SE=
Ts, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though. Event=
s are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants the SCIM o=
r the RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in configuration=
 (there is a proposal how to capture that).</div><div><br></div><div>Do we =
have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple variants =
all at once?</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov=
 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279=
834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hu=
nt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" =
target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">You can=E2=80=99t r=
eally have multiple events (at least of the same type).=C2=A0 The current s=
pec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>=
Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS.=C2=A0 =
It currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><pre class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.333333015441895px;marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The &quot;events&quot; claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The sp=
ec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple=
 separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing =
to be sent as a single message.=C2=A0 It would be INSECURE to force multipl=
e SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be del=
ivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all=
 of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
=C2=A0 Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common =
state database is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for rece=
ivers to receive separate events, in no particular order and correlate base=
d on &quot;txn&quot;. But, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of=
 &quot;events&quot; or &quot;event&quot;, so it is unrelated to this propos=
al.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div><br></div><div>If we accomm=
odate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex, deeply nested JS=
ON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has very clean JSON and av=
oids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we should stay on track =
with the current draft and observe the normative text if not make it strong=
er in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may disagree).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text=
-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-sp=
acing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap=
:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separ=
ate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div><div><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Servic=
es Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.indep=
endentid.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></=
div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richar=
d Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;=
font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norma=
l;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always =
be included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs=
 anyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another sc=
enario that they have to support.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reaso=
ns why we should not support multiple tokens per SET that no one has addres=
sed. Here they are again:<u></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" sty=
le=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293=
7781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple event support results in a more c=
omplex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree =
is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-132985246024703=
5742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834=
02937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous sem=
antics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any o=
f:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margi=
n-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if">A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as i=
f they were from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li>=
<li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an=
 extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815=
61080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an alia=
s for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402=
937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are not actually related to one =
another in any way, and the transmitter bundled them together because they =
were going to the same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></li><li class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-level claim seman=
tics become harder to define, as different profiles may want to use the sam=
e claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot be verifie=
d without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose downstream=
 systems to more information necessary, if those systems need to be able to=
 verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times N=
ew Roman&#39;,serif">--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Annabelle=
 Richard Backman<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Ident=
ity Services<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid =
none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3p=
t 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"=
m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.c=
om</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-=
converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<b=
r><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" =
class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834creme=
d cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span cla=
ss=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
/b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Backman, Annabe=
lle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<sp=
an class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</=
span></b>RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexit=
y to the issuer over the recipient.=C2=A0 In my view, it=E2=80=99s more com=
plex for recipients to have to correlate and process a sequence of multiple=
 SETs providing information about the same logical event, and validate N si=
gnatures, than to receive one SET with all the aspects of the logical event=
 as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, with no correlation over time then req=
uired.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
,96)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><a name=3D"m_-1329852460247035742_m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958=
451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080__MailEndCompose" clas=
s=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cr=
emed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span=
 class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318=
m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-con=
verted-space">=C2=A0</span>Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b=
><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" cla=
ss=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><=
span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" class=3D"=
m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed"=
 target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabell=
e &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-132985246024703574=
2m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">ri=
channa@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-=
event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408=
96153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil=
 Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-eve=
nt] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple=
 of points:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">1) The example is how to have a predefined extensio=
n point for extensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another ev=
ent. Myself, I think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparati=
vely static, and as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignor=
e properties it does not understand, which let&#39;s new properties be intr=
oduced as extensions. There should not be any conflict as extensions should=
 only be done by the profile that created the event format to start off wit=
h.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against.=
 I&#39;m not sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the ty=
pe of the event is well defined with=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quo=
t;event_type&quot;: &quot;</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</span=
></a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
;color:rgb(80,0,80)">&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is abou=
t reasons for multiple events to be contained in one set. Your mention of a=
n issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple =
events. I think we have decided that given a preference, we will push effor=
t to the transmitter over the receiver as in many use cases there are many =
more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a receiver to have diffe=
rent ways of managing the receipt of multiple events as not all issuers wil=
l bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one event per SET. Inclu=
ding the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implemen=
t, speaking from experience.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:no=
ne none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 proposed synta=
x, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.=C2=A0 The way I see it=
, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a secondar=
y passwordResetExt data structure, which could have been simply another eve=
nt value in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change makes the data structure=
s more complicated - not less.=C2=A0 And it makes things that used to be po=
ssible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who would use the spec.</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">The=
se seem like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{</=
span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584=
bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &qu=
ot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;i=
ss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.exampl=
e.com</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [=
</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/=
Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d76045=
16b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d0864=
1d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span>=
<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96b=
d6ab61e7521<wbr>d9&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;extensions&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://examp=
le.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/p=
asswordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5,</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39=
;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Cour=
ier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,=
serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,=
96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
32,96)">In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related even=
ts sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.=C2=
=A0 It forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the relate=
d events (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the =
recipients to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signature=
s.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.</span><=
u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a nam=
e=3D"m_-1329852460247035742_m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958451029318_m_=
7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935__MailEndCo=
mpose" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u=
><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]<span c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-132=
9852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, Octo=
ber 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781=
561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc=
:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing L=
ist &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; P=
hil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246024=
7035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@orac=
le.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><s=
pan class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">Please direct me to a proposal that has a &quot;primary&quot; and &quot;s=
econdary&quot; events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage =
to engage in the discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.<u=
></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a receiver mu=
st deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as correlated e=
vents in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 a=
t 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" st=
yle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">=
Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote s=
tyle=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left=
-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear =
you on the fact that different people have joined the effort at different t=
imes.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.=
=C2=A0 I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were=
 taken.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,9=
6)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,3=
2,96)">I should note that I have specific technical objections to the speci=
fic proposed changes being discussed as well.=C2=A0 Currently all events in=
 the set have the same syntax.=C2=A0 The proposals, as I understand them, r=
evert us to a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two class=
es.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual valu=
e.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96=
)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:=
</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">d=
ick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, October 31=
, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408=
96153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><=
span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.h=
unt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration=
:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Eve=
nts Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</spa=
n>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Mike<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">As you well know, many people in a WG don&#39;t look closely at =
a specification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on =
only the 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some o=
f the participants have been working on this for a while, many have not, an=
d we are looking for consensus across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is=
 a framework that we expect to be profiled, I feel it is important to ensur=
e that SecEvent specifications are easy for a variety of profiles to adopt,=
 and that the semantics make sense. I also think that properties that are s=
pecific to a profile should be left to that profile and not be included in =
SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a framework, it is expected that as dif=
ferent groups profile it, there will be additional feedback.<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a number of issu=
es in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the SET.<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number=
 of changes to SET since then. I also don&#39;t think there was consensus. =
Before the WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the=
 design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As to =
taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining issues in SE=
T and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will need to wai=
t for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We also ha=
ve a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don&#39;t =
have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of =
documents to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work w=
ith.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the las=
t IETF meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize =
all the documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jon=
es@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"bor=
der-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(=
204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite=
"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard =
for me to even express my level of frustration with the recent attempts to =
once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ve been at th=
is for multiple years because people keep trying to revisit decisions that =
were long ago made by consensus.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a =
year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWor=
ks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justif=
ication to try to undo consensus positions that have been debated and affir=
med over and over.=C2=A0 Countenancing wholesale changes at this late date =
is counterproductive in the extreme!</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s far better than good eno=
ugh as-is.=C2=A0 In my experience, if we start redesigning it, it will resu=
lt in another year=E2=80=99s delay.=C2=A0 It does something simple and usef=
ul.=C2=A0 Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so people can rely on it.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a =
name=3D"m_-1329852460247035742_m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958451029318=
_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935_m_-5013=
8548614102" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=C2=A0</span></a><=
u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-t=
op-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@=
oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-132985246024703574=
2m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029=
37781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Mon=
day, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683=
402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yar=
onf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&=
gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-=
event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space"=
>=C2=A0</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:u=
nderline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt=
" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u></u></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct me if I am misund=
erstanding, but there is a RISC profile event=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quo=
t;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.=
openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumC=
XCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25=
l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279=
834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid=
.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif;white-space:pre-wrap">&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a=
>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I&#39;m suggesting that two dif=
ferent events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make sense=
.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;It =
is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not mean =
others are not valid.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping proposals that =
have different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from=
 issuing a single set with different events.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
">As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct =
events in one SET.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5=
pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_=
type be at the same level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">&lt;ph&gt;may be. I was working from Annabelle&#39;s proposed format.=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5=
pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"=
>{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584b=
d193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat=
&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quo=
t;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98=
d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5b=
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"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a=
 href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
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er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0],</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/=
passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a=
>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {=C2=
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></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
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n><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></=
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erif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
,serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
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t-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf=
797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &q=
uot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com=
</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
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er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/=
Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d5=
2461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
&quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" =
style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed=
 m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank=
">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;</=
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ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#=
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ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype=
_account-2Dcredential-2Dchange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1=
aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9=
ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgUCTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.n=
et/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</a=
>&quot;,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;event&quot;: {</spa=
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Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;<a href=3D"https://idp.example.co=
m/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://idp.example.co<wbr>m/</a>&quot;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
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family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;=
,serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt=
@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><bloc=
kquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;bor=
der-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt =
4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u><u></u></div=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks=
 for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of the propo=
sal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the propo=
sed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursiv=
e way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s =C2=
=A0consider a use case where we have an identity management system that use=
s SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for Connect.=
=C2=A0 A Password reset might generate the following event which has an ext=
ension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.=C2=A0 B=
OTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. =
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &q=
uot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.co=
m/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc=
879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b775=
4</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;events&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>s=
swordReset&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;id&quot;:&quot;44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9&qu=
ot;},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:=
purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408=
96153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602=
47035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://examp=
le.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&qu=
ot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&=
amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ym=
RQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&am=
p;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568330=
04cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><b=
r>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired&quot;:=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=
=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:13.5p=
t"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>=
&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><p=
re style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier=
 New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#=
39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above - each payloa=
d is a =E2=80=98peer&#39; and issued without preference by the transmitter.=
 The receiver can assign priority in its own context if that matters.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></di=
v><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-seri=
f">The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,s=
erif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier =
New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7=
<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot=
;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;=
: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a=
>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purpl=
e;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.examp=
le.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.=
com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/=
5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;ev=
ent&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:passwor=
dReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
-&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Co=
urier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D=
"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/sci=
m/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { &quot;resetAttempts&=
quot;:5},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event=
-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
I_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9=
_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz4=
0tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cr=
emed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-=
type/\</a><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-cha=
nge-req<wbr>uired&quot;: {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//idp.example.com<wbr>/</a>&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</=
span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,se=
rif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, sub-eve=
nts or extensions have a different format. The same complaint about the ori=
ginal stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">*OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).=C2=A0 Note that this le=
ads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Couri=
er New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd=
4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&q=
uot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&qu=
ot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com=
</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.ex=
ample.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Cou=
rier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.examp=
le.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr=
>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif=
">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;=
event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openi=
d.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaW=
HvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH=
8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid=
.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;=
text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246024703574=
2m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.=
co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=
=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;urn:ietf:params:=
scim:event:pa<wbr>sswordReset&quot;:</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 {=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142d=
f96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://example=
.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279=
834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/pas=
swordResetExt</a>&quot;:<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 { =
&quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5},<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0 </span=
><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><=
u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it e=
xtends. It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)</span><u><=
/u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular eve=
nt=C2=A0 Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span></b><u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,ser=
if">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot;: &quot;3=
d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246024=
7035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://scim.example.com</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,seri=
f">=C2=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc=
879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b775=
4</a>&quot;,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot=
;<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>&quot;<u></u>=
<u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#=
39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=
=3D"font-size:13.5pt">&quot;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6l=
K67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a></=
span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#3=
9;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=
=9D:&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com=
/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&=
#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:&quot;urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:e=
vent:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </=
span>&quot;id&quot;:=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:=
&quot;<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298=
52460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/example.<wbr>com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&=
#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;resetAttempts&quot;:5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier N=
ew&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-=
family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span>=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo=
nt-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format follo=
ws the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. Not=
e that the parser has to continue to search the document for things that ar=
en=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attrib=
ute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><=
/div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;=
Courier New&#39;,serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil=
<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independe=
ntid<br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__ww=
w.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyV=
nrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQ=
N9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5=
pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 201=
7, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@am=
azon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies i=
nline.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
">--=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;T=
imes New Roman&#39;,serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-co=
lor:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:wh=
ite"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568=
3402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660=
703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br>=
<b>Date:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775587320893=
5m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-convert=
ed-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<sp=
an class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548=
61410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<s=
pan class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854=
861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004creme=
d m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:pur=
ple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"c=
olor:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Richard Back=
man, Annabelle&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing L=
ist &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024=
6660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this answe=
rs your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgro=
und-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t=
 see a reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification to=
 make =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richann=
a]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is e=
asier to process. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use c=
ases that require more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many re=
asons for multiple events in a SET.=C2=A0 Some are good, some not so good. =
Some of the reasons...<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white">1.=C2=A0 Multiple event payloads expressing st=
atements about largely the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AN=
D RISC password reset.=C2=A0 A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one =
a complement to the other?=C2=A0 Do they overlap or are they distinct? =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why is it necessary or appropriate to incl=
ude these events in the same SET? They are likely being generated by differ=
ent systems at different times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed =
by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being tra=
nsmitted over different event streams. I know the latter would be the case =
for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send t=
hese events separately? What value is gained in combining them?</span><u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Additionally,=
 since the signature is over the SET and not the event objects, Receivers i=
ndependently route separate events from a single token without either losin=
g the ability to verify the authenticity of the event or sharing all inform=
ation in the SET with every system handling any event in the token.[/richan=
na]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;background-p=
osition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.=C2=A0 Multipl=
e events payloads expressing different statements about the same transactio=
n - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></p></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.=C2=A0 A new profile=
 defines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type (a p=
ure extension)=C2=A0<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I h=
ave suggested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple ti=
mes now. If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:white">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. =C2=A02 could be limit=
ed by specific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></=
div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></=
div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement =
that making event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions=
 complex (another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.=C2=A0=
<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(19=
5,70,224)">Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u=
><u></u></div></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in">=
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;ba=
ckground-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It res=
ults in a more complex structure for the single event use case, which I thi=
nk we all agree is the majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-positi=
on:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs h=
ave ambiguous semantics. The presence of two events A and B in the same SET=
 could mean any of:<u></u><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0i=
n"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white=
;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">The=
y are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing as if they wer=
e from different SETs that have a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-=
position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">A is an extensi=
on of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in =
0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224=
);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-rep=
eat:initial initial">B is an extension of A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-pos=
ition:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are aliases f=
or one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195=
,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backgro=
und-repeat:initial initial">They are not actually related to one another in=
 any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1" style=3D"m=
argin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);backgro=
und-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initi=
al initial">Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles =
may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the WG wants to bl=
ock 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event registry to=
 ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need to express =
multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=80=99m=
 not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Those ar=
e already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div=
><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">P=
hil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whit=
e">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-colo=
r:white">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u=
></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independenti=
d<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.indep=
endentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0H=
aTX4anNZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxu=
eoPXnKEUT0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</=
span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM,=
 Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246024703=
5742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div>=
</div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your examples for having a pluralit=
y of events, you use the word &quot;may&quot;, which leads me to question i=
f a plurality of events is really required in SET.</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it will be dif=
ficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with the same &q=
uot;txn&quot;, but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate =
events on the same subject -- correlating events on the same &quot;txn&quot=
; on the same subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9=
pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to =
correlate multiple SEts on the same subject, so having multiple events in a=
 SET is redundant, and adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see=
.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in =
0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color=
:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-col=
or:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An=
 implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a single SET with mu=
ltiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I prefer we pick on=
e way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to support correlating =
across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u=
></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=
=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u>=
</u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Let me know if there i=
s something I missed in my logic.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-f=
amily:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-=
family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9p=
t;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;fon=
t-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Shef=
fer<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50=
13854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span class=3D"=
m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m=
6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:no=
ne none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div =
style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">In that case, let&#39;s add text to that effect, e.g. we co=
uld add to the definition of the &quot;events&quot; claim:<br><br>Profiling=
 specifications SHOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY restric=
t their number. For example, some profiles may require this claim to contai=
n only a single event statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50=
13854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span>Yaron<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none s=
olid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0=
in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;b=
ackground-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat=
:initial initial"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-s=
erif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=
=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set mu=
st be a singleton.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be true for all event=
s.=C2=A0 I think things are fine as-is.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_=
7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141=
0265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-even=
t-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event-bounces@ietf.<=
wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Monday, October 23,=
 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span>=
</a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@iet=
f.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br>*=
Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><br>Anna=
belle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>Profil=
ing Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating tha=
t extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operability =
issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by suggesti=
ng a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add to=
 complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and un=
load one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<b=
r><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose=
 extensions not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items=
 like GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other=
 general purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios wher=
e additional data might be required. Even though there is no current planne=
d use, I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events From D=
ifferent Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><=
br>In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC event=
s in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did=
 not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out=
 multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profile is exp=
ressing slightly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee=
 some cases where it is not clear which is the primary and which is the ext=
ension.=C2=A0 There may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples =
(these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is pro=
bably useful to be able to express simlar/overlapping events from different=
 SET profiles in one SET.=C2=A0 For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RI=
SC session cancel event.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single trans=
action as causing multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password chang=
e causes multiple effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correl=
ate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi=
-node delivery system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SCIM list has not discussed this, bu=
t I would not want to block this capability.=C2=A0 IOW - Just because RISC =
does not want to express multiple events does not make this true for other =
profiles.<br><br>* We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was perfor=
med and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.=C2=A0 =
The events are related but express different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusio=
n From Similar Events Originating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If event=
s are sent separately, then more tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be r=
equired to ensure similar events are not mistaken or handled as repeats. Wh=
ile txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it =
can be used in live or near-real time systems given distributed multi-node,=
 multi-threading architectures.<br><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note th=
at I originally raised having an attribute to designate primary event attri=
bute to alleviate your concern, but this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<sp=
an class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548=
61410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-=
3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=
=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FV=
zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxur=
uib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNycrOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=
=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/=
web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><br><br>*<span class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6=
958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw=
&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/curr=
ent/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least as I inter=
preted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the definitions=
 it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is f=
ree to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>Phil<b=
r><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@indepen=
dentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-=
3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv=
7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1=
q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279=
834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.indepe=
ndentid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377=
787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034964=
4apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proo=
fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw=
&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span styl=
e=3D"color:purple">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>=
<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m=
-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080=
349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil=
.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com<=
/span></a>&gt;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Ba=
ckman, Annabelle<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246024=
7035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004crem=
ed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a><span class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265=
301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple=
;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing multiple<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 events within the same token, which introduces additional com=
plexity<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve di=
scussed this in the OIDF<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RISC working group and the curren=
t consensus there is that RISC will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 require that RISC even=
ts must be the only event in the SET, having<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identified wa=
ys to clearly and easily support the handful of use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases =
for multiple events per token that people have raised. With<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 that context in mind, I propose striking the definition of the<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event Token spe=
c, and replacing it<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the following definition for an =
=E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 event<br><br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A JSON object containing an &quot;event_type&quot; member wh=
ose value is a URI<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 representing a type of event defined in=
 a Profiling Specification.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The object MAY otherwise be em=
pty, or MAY contain additional members<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as described by the=
 Profiling Specification.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here is the example SET from=
 section 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mind:<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208=
935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span>{<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;jti&quot=
;: &quot;4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iat&quot;: 1458496404,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=
&quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color=
:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440=
896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776=
980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:un=
derline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584=
51029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt<wbr>p=
s://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &quot;aud&quot;: [<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0&quot;=
<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><sp=
an style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bb=
c879593b7754</span></a>&quot;<wbr>,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d=
7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298=
52460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>ed=
s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>&quot;<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0 ],<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br><br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;event_type&quot;: &quot;urn:ietf:par=
ams:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 &quot;ref&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f=
6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cl=
ass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed =
cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example=
.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>&quot;,<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;attributes&quot;: [&quot;id&quot;, &q=
uot;name&quot;, &quot;userName&quot;, &quot;password&quot;, &quot;emails&qu=
ot;]<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SETs that ca=
nnot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identif=
ied three use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 **<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Extensions*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ev=
ent extension mechanisms can be defined internal to the event<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 object. A simple approach would be to =C2=A0define an =E2=80=9Cextensio=
ns=E2=80=9D member<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is a list of event objects (or set=
 resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 claim as defined =
in the current spec). This has the advantage of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 making it =
clear in the data structure that there is a single primary<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room for confusion<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 over which event is primary, or if there is a primary event at a=
ll.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I would be fine with adding something like this to my =
proposed text,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if there is consensus that it is broadly us=
eful.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Aliases*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This use case was=
 brought up in the context of migrating clients<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from draft=
 event names to standardized event names. In this case,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 th=
e event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the logical event,<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 one using the old name and another using the new name.<br><br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Related Events*<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The SET spec defines th=
e txn claim as a means of correlating<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 independent tokens t=
hat relate to the same logical event.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<span class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346=
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m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Amazon =
=E2=80=93 Identity Services<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 __________________________=
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To: Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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The two control plane proposals don't actually support composite events. The=
y only indicate a primary event. The txr is free to attach composite extensi=
ons as it thinks needed.=20

We may still have to address that.=20

Phil

> On Nov 1, 2017, at 3:08 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com> wrote=
:
>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:00 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> wro=
te:
>> The receiver probably knows which version they want, but does the sender?=
 Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email client to accep=
t plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=93 not knowing w=
hat you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my message.
>=20
> Two solutions:
> - since receiver knows what version they want they are going to only consu=
me that and ignore the other
> - there is a proposal underway so that receivers can tell the sender exact=
ly what they want, no events dropped on the floor
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> I think it would help if we broke this problem down into two parts. 1/ Ar=
e multi-format SETs desirable? That's been the design since the earliest ver=
sion. 2/ What is the best representation of the SET based on what we decide f=
or #1.
>=20
> Yes, and #1 above is being challenged.
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> My understanding was that the "events" plural (related to #2, the best re=
presentation of a SET) was in fact a concern, as people may skip the text an=
d look directly at the JSON syntax, then jump to conclusions.
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>=
 wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com> w=
rote:
>>>> Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design=
. The goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However m=
ultiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 th=
e example given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.
>>>>=20
>>>> A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which may hav=
e two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the version t=
hat they understand and ignore the one they don't.
>>>=20
>>> Yes, and I think this is well understood.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was pluralized due to=
 it being an array, not because it represented multiple logical events.
>>>=20
>>> I don't think this is the main concern or cause for confusion.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Annabelle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semant=
ics between the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other w=
ays to resolve that without removing the ability for multiple representation=
s of the same event?
>>>=20
>>> The argument is that multiple representations can be sent as distinct SE=
Ts, if really needed. In practice this will happen quite rare though. Events=
 are created for a specific receiver, the receiver either wants the SCIM or t=
he RISC flavor, and they should be able to specify that in configuration (th=
ere is a proposal how to capture that).
>>>=20
>>> Do we have a compelling use case where a receiver must receive multiple v=
ariants all at once?
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.co=
m> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wro=
te:
>>>>>> You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same t=
ype).  The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Note that the spec normatively does not support multiple event SETS. =
 It currently states:
>>>>>>> events
>>>>>>>       The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statem=
ents
>>>>>>>       that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single=

>>>>>>>       logical event that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
>>>>>>>       subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NO=
T be
>>>>>>>       accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
>>>>>>>       multiple logical events.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The spec has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) f=
or multiple separate profile statements (from one or more profile familities=
) needing to be sent as a single message.  It would be INSECURE to force mul=
tiple SETs because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be d=
elivered at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets al=
l of the SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.=
  Assembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state d=
atabase is NOT simple nor cost effective.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to receive separate=
 events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". But, receivers=
 have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so it is unrela=
ted to this proposal.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a complex=
, deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace conflicts.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> IMO The proposal does not simplify, it complicating and limiting. =20=

>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The current spec has very clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts b=
etween profiles. I think we should stay on track with the current draft and o=
bserve the normative text if not make it stronger in regards to multi-events=
 (understood that Mike may disagree).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@am=
azon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Unless the profile guarantees that such related events will always b=
e included in the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs a=
nyway, and multiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scena=
rio that they have to support.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should no=
t support multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are a=
gain:
>>>>>>> Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the s=
ingle event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two ev=
ents A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>> A and B are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thing a=
s if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>> A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.
>>>>>>> A and B are not actually related to one another in any way, and the t=
ransmitter bundled them together because they were going to the same receive=
r.
>>>>>>> Top-level claim semantics become harder to define, as different prof=
iles may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>> Event authenticity cannot be verified without having the entire SET.=
 This forces receivers to expose downstream systems to more information nece=
ssary, if those systems need to be able to verify authenticity.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>> Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM
>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabel=
le" <richanna@amazon.com>, ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, "Phil=
 Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over the recip=
ient.  In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients to have to corre=
late and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing information about the=
 same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to receive one SET with=
 all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D fields, wi=
th no correlation over time then required.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:39 AM
>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabell=
e <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil Hu=
nt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> Your comments highlight a couple of points:
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> 1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for exten=
sions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I thi=
nk this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, and as=
 with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it does=
 not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. The=
re should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the profi=
le that created the event format to start off with.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> 2) Having an lvalue be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not=
 sure why Marius had that in his example. Per the event, the type of the eve=
nt is well defined with=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> 3) This thread is about reasons for multiple events to be contained i=
n one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting to sign separate events as a=
 reason to allow multiple events. I think we have decided that given a prefe=
rence, we will push effort to the transmitter over the receiver as in many u=
se cases there are many more receivers. Given that, it is more complex for a=
 receiver to have different ways of managing the receipt of multiple events a=
s not all issuers will bundle the events, so it is simpler to have only one e=
vent per SET. Including the separate events with a URI as an lvalue is chall=
enging to implement, speaking from experience.
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Marius=E2=80=99 proposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this c=
haracteristic.  The way I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary pas=
swordReset event and a secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which coul=
d have been simply another event value in the current draft.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> This breaking change makes the data structures more complicated - n=
ot less.  And it makes things that used to be possible impossible, reducing f=
lexibility to those who would use the spec.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> These seem like bad tradeoffs to me.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt",=

>>>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>          "extensions": {
>>>>>>>>            "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D=
: {
>>>>>>>>              "resetAttempts":5,
>>>>>>>>            }
>>>>>>>>          }
>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> In particular, it makes it impossible to sign multiple related even=
ts sharing a common claims schema with a single signature by the issuer.  It=
 forces the issuer to do the extra work of signing each of the related event=
s (or facets of the same logical event) individually and forces the recipien=
ts to do the extra work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Not every profile will ever have multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Ceven=
ts=E2=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s absolutely no reason to preclude it.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> From: Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dick=
 Hardt
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:52 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabel=
le <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>; Phil H=
unt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> Please direct me to a proposal that has a "primary" and "secondary"=
 events. I agree that is undesirable. I would also encourage to engage in th=
e discussions so that we can drive clarity and simplicity.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I think the proposal is that there is one event per SET.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as a rec=
eiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as corre=
lated events in the same SET.
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microso=
ft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I hear you on the fact that different people have joined the effor=
t at different times.  That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds m=
omentum.  I get that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls we=
re taken.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> I should note that I have specific technical objections to the spe=
cific proposed changes being discussed as well.  Currently all events in the=
 set have the same syntax.  The proposals, as I understand them, revert us t=
o a state where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csec=
ondary=E2=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.  That=E2=80=
=99s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>                                                                 --=
 Mike
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> From: Dick Hardt [mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com]=20
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>; Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.=
ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>; ID Events=
 Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> As you well know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a spec=
ification until last call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only th=
e 3rd WG meeting. The WG has not existed for very long. While some of the pa=
rticipants have been working on this for a while, many have not, and we are l=
ooking for consensus across the WG.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to be profiled, I fee=
l it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications are easy for a vari=
ety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense. I also think th=
at properties that are specific to a profile should be left to that profile a=
nd not be included in SecEvent.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Since this is a framework, it is expected that as different groups=
 profile it, there will be additional feedback.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> Specifically, as a participant in the RISC profile of SET, a numbe=
r of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looked at how to use the=
 SET.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> As for SET being stable for over a year, there have been a number o=
f changes to SET since then. I also don't think there was consensus. Before t=
he WG was formed, I and several others had expressed concern on the design o=
f SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaini=
ng issues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we wi=
ll need to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.=20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> We also have a number of other documents that are not in last call=
, and we don't have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are stil=
l a number of documents to work through before we have all the bits for some=
one to work with.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF m=
eeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the d=
ocuments in a timely manner.
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@micro=
soft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my level of frustration w=
ith the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecEvent Token spec.  We=E2=
=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because people keep trying to revis=
it decisions that were long ago made by consensus.  It=E2=80=99s been stable=
 for over a year and the majority of WGLC respondents said some variant of =E2=
=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> There=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo conse=
nsus positions that have been debated and affirmed over and over.  Countenan=
cing wholesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme=
!
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s far better than good enough as-is.  In my experience=
, if we start redesigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay=
.  It does something simple and useful.  Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it,=
 so people can rely on it.
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>                                                        -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com]=20
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 2:42 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>; Richard Backman, Annab=
elle <richanna@amazon.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Eve=
nts Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> Inline...
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Phil
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Correct me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile=
 event=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/account-cred=
ential-change-required=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> and an SCIM profile event
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm suggesting that two different events would be sent. Embeddin=
g one in the other does not make sense.
>>>>>>>>>> <ph>It is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on th=
is does not mean others are not valid.=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> I just picked overlapping proposals that have different meaning (=
but not the same) to illustrate the difference from issuing a single set wit=
h different events.=20
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> As I have stated this is very different from asserting multiple d=
istinct events in one SET.=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the same le=
vel as event
>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>> <ph>may be. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.=20
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetEx=
t",
>>>>>>>>>>>    "event": { =20
>>>>>>>>>>>          "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>>>          "resetAttempts":5
>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>    "event_type": "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-=
type/account-credential-change-required",
>>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>        =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"      =20=

>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle/Dick,
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequ=
ences of the proposal in JSON.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the proposed exte=
nsion mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recursive way). D=
oes it follow the old format or the new?
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let=E2=80=99s  consider a use case where we have an identity ma=
nagement system that uses SCIM, but the SCIM system is also the underlying d=
ata store for Connect.  A Password reset might generate the following event w=
hich has an extension (conveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from=
 RISC.  BOTH of which might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM an=
d OIDC. =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> The 03 spec currently would allow:
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",=

>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "events": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>      "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>>>>        { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9"},
>>>>>>>>>>>>      "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>>>>        { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>>>>      "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>>>        account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D=
,
>>>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>   }
>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued with=
out preference by the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its o=
wn context if that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> The new proposal:
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",=

>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:event:p=
asswordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>      "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>>>      ->note =E2=80=A6is this the old or new structure? <-
>>>>>>>>>>>>        "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":
>>>>>>>>>>>>          { "resetAttempts":5},
>>>>>>>>>>>>        "http://schemas.openid.net/secevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>>>          account-credential-change-required": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D=
,
>>>>>>>>>>>>          =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/"
>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>      }
>>>>>>>>>>>>    }   =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the above, sub-events or extensions have a different format.=
 The same complaint about the original stands.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> *OR* (if the receiver cares about RISC more).  Note that this l=
eads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",=

>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/se=
cevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,=

>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>>>         "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:passwordReset":
>>>>>>>>>>>>         {=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>           "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>>>              "https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt":=

>>>>>>>>>>>>                { "resetAttempts":5}, =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>           }     =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the above, the extension is placed inside the event it exten=
ds. It follows the old format (or should it follow the new?)
>>>>>>>>>>>> *OR* Following the top layer pattern of singular event  Note th=
at this leads to a triple nested structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7d30",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iat": 1458496025,
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "iss": "https://scim.example.com",
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754",=

>>>>>>>>>>>>     "https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>    ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>    "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>      =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"http://schemas.openid.net/se=
cevent/risc/event-type/\
>>>>>>>>>>>>              account-credential-change-required=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"https://idp.example.com/=E2=80=9C,=

>>>>>>>>>>>>       =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:scim:even=
t:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>         "id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>         =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{
>>>>>>>>>>>>           =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"https://example.com/sci=
m/event/passwordResetExt=E2=80=9D,
>>>>>>>>>>>>           "resetAttempts":5=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>         }
>>>>>>>>>>>>       }    =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>    }
>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> This format follows the proposed singular event format recursiv=
ely and is 3 layers deep. Note that the parser has to continue to search the=
 document for things that aren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=
=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attribute is found rather than iterate over an array.
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richa=
nna@amazon.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Replies inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael=
.Jones@microsoft.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, I=
D Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?=

>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope this answers your question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a rea=
son why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=80=
=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]The singular =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clear=
er semantics and is easier to process. We should opt for easier solutions un=
less there are use cases that require more complexity.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are many reasons for multiple events in a SET.  Some are=
 good, some not so good. Some of the reasons...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largel=
y the *same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.=
  A RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?  D=
o they overlap or are they distinct? =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why is it necessary or appropriate to include these events in t=
he same SET? They are likely being generated by different systems at differe=
nt times on the transmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on=
 the receiver=E2=80=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different e=
vent streams. I know the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Eve=
n if it=E2=80=99s not, is it burdensome to send these events separately? Wha=
t value is gained in combining them?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the e=
vent objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single to=
ken without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the even=
t or sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any event=
 in the token.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  Multiple events payloads expressing different statements a=
bout the same transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]Same as above[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.  A new profile defines new event attributes to be added on t=
o an existing event type (a pure extension)=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I have suggested a way to support extensions within a=
n event body, multiple times now. If you see problems with it, please point t=
hem out.[/richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3.  2 could be limite=
d by specific profiles like RISC if they want.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not in agreement that making event singular simplifies an=
ything. For one is makes extensions complex (another nested JSON structure) a=
nd potentially conflicting.=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ways that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It results in a more complex structure for the single event us=
e case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of t=
wo events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are related to the same logical event (i.e. the same thin=
g as if they were from different SETs that have a common txn).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A is an extension of B.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> B is an extension of A.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are aliases for one another.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are not actually related to one another in any way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles=
 may want to use the same claims in different ways.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the WG wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have=
 to establish an event registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap t=
o eliminate the need to express multiple events.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [richanna]I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you r=
eferring to event names? Those are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/=
richanna]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In your examples for having a plurality of events, you use th=
e word "may", which leads me to question if a plurality of events is really r=
equired in SET.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You posit that it will be difficult for a distributed system t=
o correlate multiple SETs with the same "txn", but the distributed system wi=
ll certainly need to correlate events on the same subject -- correlating eve=
nts on the same "txn" on the same subject seems fairly simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple SEts o=
n the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, and add=
s complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An implementor may choose to send multiple SETs, or send a si=
ngle SET with multiple events, so a receiver will need to support both. I pr=
efer we pick one way and minimize the code paths, and we will need to suppor=
t correlating across multiple SETs, so that seems the best mechanism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could a=
dd to the definition of the "events" claim:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling specifications SHOULD define the allowed event sta=
tements, and MAY restrict their number. For example, some profiles may requi=
re this claim to contain only a single event statement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>         Yaron
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with much of Phil=E2=80=99s rationale here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say that the =E2=80=9C=
events=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.  That doesn=E2=80=99t have to be tr=
ue for all events.  I think things are fine as-is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                                            =
      -- Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Id-event [mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org] *On Beh=
alf Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per=
 SET?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annabelle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a number of concerns with this proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Profiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indicating that extensions should be handled by profiles le=
ads to more inter-operability issues and more importantly intrudes on the Ev=
ent payload space by suggesting a sub-schema creates potential limitations a=
nd conflicts that may add to complexity later on. The current format allows a=
 parser to discover and unload one or more JSON payloads which can each have=
 independent structure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> General extensions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The proposal also rules out general purpose extensions not r=
elated to any specific event. Given the emergence of items like GPRD, I woul=
d not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other general purpose it=
ems. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where additional data mi=
ght be required. Even though there is no current planned use, I see no good r=
eason to rule this out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Multiple Events =46rom Different Families (vs. Multiple Eve=
nts from a single family like RISC)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In our RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distin=
ct RISC events in one SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a t=
ime. We did not discuss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason t=
o rule out multi-events from different families at the SET level. Each profi=
le is expressing slightly different things about the same event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can forsee some cases where it is not clear which is the p=
rimary and which is the extension.  There may not be a clear winner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of examples (these are necessarily real=E2=80=A6ju=
st possibilities):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * It is probably useful to be able to express simlar/overla=
pping events from different SET profiles in one SET.  For example a Backchan=
nel Logout & a RISC session cancel event.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causin=
g multiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple=
 effects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctx=
n=E2=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery syst=
em.   The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to block th=
is capability.  IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express multiple ev=
ents does not make this true for other profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * We may wish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was perform=
ed and a Logout/session cancellation is expressed at the same time.  The eve=
nts are related but express different data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Originating from t=
he Same Transaction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If events are sent separately, then more tracking of state (=
e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar events are not mistaken or h=
andled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit analysis capability, I=E2=
=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real time systems given dist=
ributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Previous Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note that I originally raised having an attribute to desi=
gnate primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but this was not ac=
cepted. See:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/ms=
g00406.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/id-event/current/ms=
g00140.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The consensus, at least as I interpreted it is up to the re=
ceiver to figure this out based on the definitions it has for each event URI=
 and the profiles they represent. IOW - RISC is free to limit that only one R=
ISC event be expressed at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     <richanna@amazon.com <mailto:richanna@amazon.com>> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The current draft of the SET spec allows for expressing=
 multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     events within the same token, which introduces addition=
al complexity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and room for ambiguous semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discuss=
ed this in the OIDF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     RISC working group and the current consensus there is t=
hat RISC will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     require that RISC events must be the only event in the S=
ET, having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     identified ways to clearly and easily support the handf=
ul of use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases for multiple events per token that people have ra=
ised. With
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that context in mind, I propose striking the definition=
 of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Security Event T=
oken spec, and replacing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with the following definition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=
=9D claim (singular):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     A JSON object containing an "event_type" member whose v=
alue is a URI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     representing a type of event defined in a Profiling Spe=
cification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The object MAY otherwise be empty, or MAY contain addit=
ional members
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     as described by the Profiling Specification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Here is the example SET from section 2.3, rewritten wit=
h this change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     mind:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "jti": "4d3559ec67504aaba65d40b0363faad8",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "iat": 1458496404,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "iss": "https://scim.example.com <https://scim.exampl=
e.com/>",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "aud": [
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc8795=
93b7754",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "https://scim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d=
7676ee7"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        ],
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        "event": {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "event_type": "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:create",=

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "ref": "https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96=
bd6ab61e7521d9",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          "attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password=
", "emails"]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>        }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Does anyone in the working group have use cases for SET=
s that cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identifie=
d three use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     cases, with solutions outlined below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     **
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Extensions*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Event extension mechanisms can be defined internal to t=
he event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     object. A simple approach would be to  define an =E2=80=
=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     claim as defined in the current spec). This has the adv=
antage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     making it clear in the data structure that there is a s=
ingle primary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     event, with zero or more extensions. There is no room f=
or confusion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     over which event is primary, or if there is a primary e=
vent at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     I would be fine with adding something like this to my p=
roposed text,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     if there is consensus that it is broadly useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Aliases*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     This use case was brought up in the context of migratin=
g clients
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     from draft event names to standardized event names. In t=
his case,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the event transmitter can transmit two tokens for the l=
ogical event,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     one using the old name and another using the new name.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     *Related Events*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correl=
ating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     independent tokens that relate to the same logical even=
t.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     --=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Annabelle Richard Backman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Id-event@ietf.org <mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ie=
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I a=
m working on!
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
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>>>>>>>>>=20
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>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>=20
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>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am w=
orking on!
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am wo=
rking on!
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
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>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>The two control plane proposals don't a=
ctually support composite events. They only indicate a primary event. The tx=
r is free to attach composite extensions as it thinks needed.&nbsp;</div><di=
v id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">We may s=
till have to address that.&nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 1, 2017, a=
t 3:08 PM, Marius Scurtescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com">msc=
urtescu@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:00 PM, William Denniss <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"cremed">wdenniss@goo=
gle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">The receiver probably knows which version they want, but does the sender=
? Using the email analogy, you may have configured your email client to acce=
pt plain text only. Fortunately, my client sends both =E2=80=93 not knowing w=
hat you prefer =E2=80=93 and you are able to view my message.</div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Two solutions:</div><div>- since receiver knows what=
 version they want they are going to only consume that and ignore the other<=
/div><div>- there is a proposal underway so that receivers can tell the send=
er exactly what they want, no events dropped on the floor</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></d=
iv><div>I think it would help if we broke this problem down into two parts. 1=
/ Are multi-format SETs desirable? That's been the design since the earliest=
 version. 2/ What is the best representation of the SET based on what we dec=
ide for #1.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and #1 above is=
 being challenged.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>My understanding was that the=
 "events" plural (related to #2, the best representation of a SET) <i>was</i=
> in fact&nbsp;a concern, as people may skip the text and look directly at t=
he JSON syntax, then jump to conclusions.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:54 PM, Marius Scurtesc=
u <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" target=3D"_=
blank" class=3D"cremed">mscurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Denniss <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wdenniss@google.com" class=3D"m_-13298524602=
47035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">wdenniss@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">Perhaps I can try and explain the original intent of the current design. T=
he goal was always that a SET represents a single logical event. However mul=
tiple systems may have different representations of the event =E2=80=93 the e=
xample given originally was one formatted for RISC, and one for SCIM.<div><b=
r></div><div>A good analogy is email. You send a single logical email, which=
 may have two representations, HTML and plain text. Systems can consume the v=
ersion that they understand and ignore the one they don't.</div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, and I think this is well understood.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><br></div><div>I'm starting to regret the plural in "events", it was p=
luralized due to it being an array, not because it represented multiple logi=
cal events.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think this i=
s the main concern or cause for confusion.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Annab=
elle, I understand your concerns regarding confusion of the semantics betwee=
n the JSON syntax and the specification language. Are there other ways to re=
solve that without removing the ability for multiple representations of the s=
ame event?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The argument is that m=
ultiple representations can be sent as distinct SETs, if really needed. In p=
ractice this will happen quite rare though. Events are created for a specifi=
c receiver, the receiver either wants the SCIM or the RISC flavor, and they s=
hould be able to specify that in configuration (there is a proposal how to c=
apture that).</div><div><br></div><div>Do we have a compelling use case wher=
e a receiver must receive multiple variants all at once?</div><div><br></div=
><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Marius Scurtes=
cu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mscurtescu@google.com" class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">m=
scurtescu@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On We=
d, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Phil Hunt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word">You can=E2=80=99t really have multiple events (at least of the same=
 type).&nbsp; The current spec can only have one instance of a URI (afaik). &=
nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Note that the spec normatively does not support mul=
tiple event SETS.&nbsp; It currently states:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
pre class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3=
33333015441895px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">events
      <b>The semantics of this claim is to define a set of event statements
      that each MAY add additional claims to fully describe a single
      logical event</b> that has occurred (e.g. a state change to a
      subject).  Multiple event statements of the same type SHALL NOT be
      accepted.  The "events" claim SHOULD NOT be used to express
      multiple logical events.</pre></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The spe=
c has *always* supported requirements (as stated in the spec) for multiple s=
eparate profile statements (from one or more profile familities) needing to b=
e sent as a single message.&nbsp; It would be INSECURE to force multiple SET=
s because the current delivery mechanism only allows one SET to be delivered=
 at a time. There is no way to assure that a single receiver gets all of the=
 SETs it needs in a multi-threaded, multi-node environment at scale.&nbsp; A=
ssembling multiple SETs to track =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=80=9D in a common state dat=
abase is NOT simple nor cost effective.</div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>I totally agree that it is difficult for receivers to re=
ceive separate events, in no particular order and correlate based on "txn". B=
ut, receivers have to solve this issue regardless of "events" or "event", so=
 it is unrelated to this proposal.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div=
><br></div><div>If we accommodate this in the proposed form, we end up with a=
 complex, deeply nested JSON structure with the possibility of namespace con=
flicts.</div><div><br></div><div>IMO The proposal does not simplify, it comp=
licating and limiting. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The current spec has v=
ery clean JSON and avoids namespace conflicts between profiles. I think we s=
hould stay on track with the current draft and observe the normative text if=
 not make it stronger in regards to multi-events (understood that Mike may d=
isagree).</div><div><br></div><div>Phil</div><div><div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter=
-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:b=
reak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"m_-13298524602=
47035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56=
83402937781561080Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-he=
ight:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v><div><br></div><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<=
/div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DWgSxaGY2szLNY2pvZLIU-OmBFEkwrzR3P4pC1N0D-t8&amp;s=3D9AI=
78GxZw_JU9d9S9NhacY22ov7r9-nlxp1N54IJikk&amp;e=3D" class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed=
 m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a href=3D"mailto:p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unles=
s the profile guarantees that such related events will always be included in=
 the same SET, then the receiver has to correlate across SETs anyway, and mu=
ltiple events per SET is just giving the receiver another scenario that they=
 have to support.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">I=E2=80=99ve already provided several other reasons why we should not s=
upport multiple tokens per SET that no one has addressed. Here they are agai=
n:<u></u><u></u></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;=
margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph=
" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif">Multiple event support results in a more complex structure for the sin=
gle event use case, which I think we all agree is the majority use case.<u><=
/u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph"=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics. The presence of two event=
s A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u><u></u><ol start=3D"1" ty=
pe=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in;margin-top:0in"><li class=3D"m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are related to the same lo=
gical event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that ha=
ve a common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li clas=
s=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B is an extension o=
f A.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279=
834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListPa=
ragraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">A is an alias for B, or vice-versa.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A and B are not act=
ually related to one another in any way, and the transmitter bundled them to=
gether because they were going to the same receiver.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>=
</li><li class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Top-l=
evel claim semantics become harder to define, as different profiles may want=
 to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Event authenticity cannot=
 be verified without having the entire SET. This forces receivers to expose d=
ownstream systems to more information necessary, if those systems need to be=
 able to verify authenticity.<u></u><u></u></li></ol><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<=
u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times N=
ew Roman',serif">--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backma=
n<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:'Times New Roman',serif">Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<u></u><u></u>=
</span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;=
<u></u></div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt=
;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesd=
ay, November 1, 2017 at 11:21 AM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402=
937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Richard=
 Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;, ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [I=
d-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></span></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,32,96)">I completely agree on moving complexity to the issuer over=
 the recipient.&nbsp; In my view, it=E2=80=99s more complex for recipients t=
o have to correlate and process a sequence of multiple SETs providing inform=
ation about the same logical event, and validate N signatures, than to recei=
ve one SET with all the aspects of the logical event as =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=
=9D fields, with no correlation over time then required.</span><u></u><u></u=
></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></=
u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42_m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683=
402937781561080__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">=
&nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [=
<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834=
02937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, November 1, 201=
7 9:39 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@=
microsoft.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman,=
 Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Ph=
il Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-132=
9852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] U=
se cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u><=
/u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Your comments highlight a couple of point=
s:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">1) The example is how to have a predefined extension point for e=
xtensions of a specific event, it is not how to add another event. Myself, I=
 think this is overly complicated. Events should be comparatively static, an=
d as with many other JSON formats, the receiver should ignore properties it d=
oes not understand, which let's new properties be introduced as extensions. T=
here should not be any conflict as extensions should only be done by the pro=
file that created the event format to start off with.<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2) Having an l=
value be a URI is much harder to code against. I'm not sure why Marius had t=
hat in his example. Per the event, the type of the event is well defined wit=
h&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',se=
rif;color:rgb(80,0,80)">"event_type": "</span><a href=3D"https://example.com=
/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</span>=
</a><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;color:rgb=
(80,0,80)">",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3) This thread is about reasons for multip=
le events to be contained in one set. Your mention of an issuer not wanting t=
o sign separate events as a reason to allow multiple events. I think we have=
 decided that given a preference, we will push effort to the transmitter ove=
r the receiver as in many use cases there are many more receivers. Given tha=
t, it is more complex for a receiver to have different ways of managing the r=
eceipt of multiple events as not all issuers will bundle the events, so it i=
s simpler to have only one event per SET. Including the separate events with=
 a URI as an lvalue is challenging to implement, speaking from experience.<u=
></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at=
 11:05 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246024703574=
2m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Mich=
ael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D=
"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:r=
gb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Marius=E2=80=99 pr=
oposed syntax, pasted in below, has exactly this characteristic.&nbsp; The w=
ay I see it, his proposal essentially has a primary passwordReset event and a=
 secondary passwordResetExt data structure, which could have been simply ano=
ther event value in the current draft.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">This breaking change makes the data structure=
s more complicated - not less.&nbsp; And it makes things that used to be pos=
sible impossible, reducing flexibility to those who would use the spec.</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">These see=
m like bad tradeoffs to me.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&=
nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"=
>&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"=
https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
ed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https=
://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event_type": "<=
a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:pu=
rple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246024703=
5742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.co=
m/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp=
;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"extensions": {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/pass=
wordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/eve<wbr>nt/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D=
: {</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"=
resetAttempts":5,</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">In particular,=
 it makes it impossible to sign multiple related events sharing a common cla=
ims schema with a single signature by the issuer.&nbsp; It forces the issuer=
 to do the extra work of signing each of the related events (or facets of th=
e same logical event) individually and forces the recipients to do the extra=
 work of checking all those unnecessary signatures.</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">Not every profile will ever h=
ave multiple keys in the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set but there=E2=80=99s ab=
solutely no reason to preclude it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><=
u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><a name=3D"m_-1329852460247035742_m_6337440896153279834=
_m_-3151445958451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-43777=
87755873208935__MailEndCompose" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246024703=
5742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&=
nbsp;</span></a><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Id-event [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event-bounces@ietf.<wbr>o=
rg</a>]<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday,=
 October 31, 2017 9:52 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<=
/b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ie=
tf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richa=
nna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" tar=
get=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029=
318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cr=
emed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Phil Hunt (IDM) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;<u></u>=
<u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use c=
ases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Please direct me to a propos=
al that has a "primary" and "secondary" events. I agree that is undesirable.=
 I would also encourage to engage in the discussions so that we can drive cl=
arity and simplicity.<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">I think the proposal is that there is one event per=
 SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">I think having more than one event per SET adds complexity as=
 a receiver must deal with receiving correlated events in one SET as well as=
 correlated events in the same SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&=
nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2=
017 at 9:42 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed=
 m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
>Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote s=
tyle=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" typ=
e=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I hear you o=
n the fact that different people have joined the effort at different times.&=
nbsp; That=E2=80=99s a normal process as an effort builds momentum.&nbsp; I g=
et that not everyone was there when previous consensus calls were taken.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">I should=
 note that I have specific technical objections to the specific proposed cha=
nges being discussed as well.&nbsp; Currently all events in the set have the=
 same syntax.&nbsp; The proposals, as I understand them, revert us to a stat=
e where there=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csecondary=E2=
=80=9D events, with different syntax for the two classes.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99=
s needlessly more complicated, adding no actual value.</span><u></u><u></u><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u=
></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt [mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline"=
 class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed=
 cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><s=
pan class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>Tuesday, October 31, 2017 9:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted=
-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.=
com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;; Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf=
.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Richard Backman, Annabelle &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&gt;; ID Even=
ts Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D=
"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469=
46956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-=
event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As you we=
ll know, many people in a WG don't look closely at a specification until las=
t call is made. Additionally, we are coming up on only the 3rd WG meeting. T=
he WG has not existed for very long. While some of the participants have bee=
n working on this for a while, many have not, and we are looking for consens=
us across the WG.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since SecEvent is a framework that we expect to b=
e profiled, I feel it is important to ensure that SecEvent specifications ar=
e easy for a variety of profiles to adopt, and that the semantics make sense=
. I also think that properties that are specific to a profile should be left=
 to that profile and not be included in SecEvent.<u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Since this is a f=
ramework, it is expected that as different groups profile it, there will be a=
dditional feedback.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Specifically, as a participant in the RISC prof=
ile of SET, a number of issues in SET have surfaced as the RISC WG has looke=
d at how to use the SET.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As for SET being stable for over a year, t=
here have been a number of changes to SET since then. I also don't think the=
re was consensus. Before the WG was formed, I and several others had express=
ed concern on the design of SET when Phil presented it at an IIW session.<u>=
</u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">As to taking another year, I am hopeful we can resolve the remaining i=
ssues in SET and publish a new draft for last call. I do not think we will n=
eed to wait for another WG meeting to ask for last call.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">We a=
lso have a number of other documents that are not in last call, and we don't=
 have a WG adopted draft yet for management. So there are still a number of d=
ocuments to work through before we have all the bits for someone to work wit=
h.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">I do think we have been making good progress since the last IETF=
 meeting, and I am hopeful we can keep up this momentum and finalize all the=
 documents in a timely manner.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">/Dick<u></u><u></u></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u=
></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Mike Jones &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408=
96153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none no=
ne solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99s hard for me to even express my l=
evel of frustration with the recent attempts to once again redesign the SecE=
vent Token spec.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99ve been at this for multiple years because=
 people keep trying to revisit decisions that were long ago made by consensu=
s.&nbsp; It=E2=80=99s been stable for over a year and the majority of WGLC r=
espondents said some variant of =E2=80=9CWorks for me =E2=80=93 ship it!=E2=80=
=9D</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&n=
bsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">T=
here=E2=80=99s not sufficient justification to try to undo consensus positio=
ns that have been debated and affirmed over and over.&nbsp; Countenancing wh=
olesale changes at this late date is counterproductive in the extreme!</span=
><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">It=E2=80=99=
s far better than good enough as-is.&nbsp; In my experience, if we start red=
esigning it, it will result in another year=E2=80=99s delay.&nbsp; It does s=
omething simple and useful.&nbsp; Please, let=E2=80=99s just ship it, so peo=
ple can rely on it.</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><u></u><u></u></div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><a name=3D"m_-1329852460247035742_m_6337440896153279834_m_-3151445958=
451029318_m_7476346946956833004_m_5683402937781561080_m_-4377787755873208935=
_m_-50138548614102" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834cremed cremed"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96)">&nbsp;</span>=
</a><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;bord=
er-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b>From:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>Phil Hunt (IDM) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, Octobe=
r 30, 2017 2:42 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377815610=
80Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.=
hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffe=
r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;=
 Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m=
_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132=
9852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richan=
na@amazon.com</a>&gt;; Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@micros=
oft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank">id-event@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></div=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:=
Calibri,sans-serif"><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742=
m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937=
781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Id-event] Use cases for mu=
ltiple events per SET?<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Inline...<br><br>Phil<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></p>On Oct 30, 2017, at 2=
:22 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440=
896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602=
47035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u><p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-=
top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Phil<u></u><u>=
</u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correc=
t me if I am misunderstanding, but there is a RISC profile event&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a hr=
ef=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.n=
et_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42x=
zgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>ev=
ent/risc/event-type/</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif">account-<wbr>credential-change-required</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">and an SCIM profile event<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;=
<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:pre-wrap">"<a href=3D"ht=
tps://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-de=
coration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3=
151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<=
wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif;white-space:=
pre-wrap">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I'm suggesting that t=
wo different events would be sent. Embedding one in the other does not make s=
ense.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;I=
t is a hypothetical example. Just because you disagree on this does not mean=
 others are not valid.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I just picked overlapping proposals that hav=
e different meaning (but not the same) to illustrate the difference from iss=
uing a single set with different events.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As I hav=
e stated this is very different from asserting multiple distinct events in o=
ne SET.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bo=
ttom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">Also, I think it is simpler to have event_type be at the s=
ame level as event<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;ph&gt;may b=
e. I was working from Annabelle's proposed format.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0=
c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496=
025,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" s=
tyle=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://scim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',se=
rif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc=
879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13=
29852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469568=
33004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=
=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a=
>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fee=
ds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1=
d08641d7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbs=
p; &nbsp;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRe=
setExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>",</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New'=
,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;"event": {&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521<wbr>d9",</span><u></u><u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">=
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"resetAttempts":5</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">{</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797=
584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://s=
cim.example.com</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&n=
bsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b=
7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Couri=
er New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d76=
04516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d=
7676ee7</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;],</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbs=
p;"event_type": "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhtt=
p-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_account-2Dcredential-2Dc=
hange-2Drequired&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr=
9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DnQy9ezPRjDGdvRTCaiDti4OHelH3DKgU=
CTKjF2GQ-so&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type=
/account-<wbr>credential-change-required</a>",</span><u></u><u></u></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbs=
p;"event": {</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=
=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://id=
p.example.co<wbr>m/</a>"&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:'Courier New',serif">}</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif">On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-lef=
t-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margi=
n:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Annabelle/Dick,<u></u>=
<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f">Thanks for the comments. I think we need to examine the consequences of t=
he proposal in JSON.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">As I stated, what causes most of the issue is the pr=
oposed extension mechanism in the payload (possibly using events in a recurs=
ive way). Does it follow the old format or the new?<u></u><u></u></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Let=E2=80=99s &nbsp;c=
onsider a use case where we have an identity management system that uses SCI=
M, but the SCIM system is also the underlying data store for Connect.&nbsp; A=
 Password reset might generate the following event which has an extension (c=
onveying reset count) AND overlapping statement from RISC.&nbsp; BOTH of whi=
ch might be important to a similar receiver using SCIM and OIDC. &nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif"><b>The 03 spec currently would allow:</b><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre=
><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a=
>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;=
font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5b=
bc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754<=
/a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jh=
ub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed=
<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nb=
sp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "events": {<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>ss=
wordReset":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; { "id":"44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9"},<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordRes=
etExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},=
<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__=
schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPp=
uYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=
=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153=
279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.openi=
d.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;acco=
unt-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">=
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u>=
</u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'=
Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-=
3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=
</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In=
 the above - each payload is a =E2=80=98peer' and issued without preference b=
y the transmitter. The receiver can assign priority in its own context if th=
at matters.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
re></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
The new proposal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3=
d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"marg=
in:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"htt=
ps://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" cla=
ss=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747=
6346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cre=
med" target=3D"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',=
serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a h=
ref=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"co=
lor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374=
40896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub=
.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><=
pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New=
',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d760=
4516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed creme=
d" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7=
676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre>=
<pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier Ne=
w',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event:pa=
sswordReset=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "=
id":=E2=80=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',=
serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;note =E2=80=A6is this the old or ne=
w structure? &lt;-<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwordResetExt" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://e=
xample.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></u><u></u></pre><pre st=
yle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',seri=
f">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<u>=
</u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D=
http-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qS=
C_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://sche=
mas.openid.net/sec<wbr>event/risc/event-type/\</a><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired": {</span><u></u><u=
></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:=
'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=
=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://i=
dp.example.com<wbr>/</a>"</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in=
 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp=
; }</span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, su=
b-events or extensions have a different format. The same complaint about the=
 original stands.</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0=
001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* (if t=
he receiver cares about RISC more).&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple n=
ested structure.</span></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u>=
</pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cour=
ier New',serif">{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584b=
d193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496=
025,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.exa=
mple.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://scim.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "=
aud": [<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://=
jhub.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m=
_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
ed<wbr>s/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d76=
76ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004c=
remed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp=
;&nbsp; "event": {<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent=
_risc_event-2Dtype_-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7q=
IrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D=
iyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH=
9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102931=
8m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834crem=
ed cremed" target=3D"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/ev=
ent-<wbr>type/\</a></span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;acc=
ount-credential-change-req<wbr>uired</span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=E2=
=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=9D7375626A65637=
4=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;=
font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"colo=
r:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440=
896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602=
47035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.ex=
ample.co<wbr>m/=E2=80=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin=
:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
:{</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "urn:ietf:params:scim:event:pa<wbr>sswo=
rdReset":</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier N=
ew',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "id":=E2=80=
=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D=
:{<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;f=
ont-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/pass=
wordResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://example.com/scim/even<wbr>t/passwordResetExt</a>":<u></=
u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "resetAttempts":5},<span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt">&nbsp; </span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-=
size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</sp=
an>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif=
">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family=
:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In the above, the extension is pla=
ced inside the event it extends. It follows the old format (or should it fol=
low the new?)</span><u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><b><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">*OR* Following the top layer pattern of s=
ingular event&nbsp; Note that this leads to a triple nested structure.</span=
></b><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10p=
t;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">{<u><=
/u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-fa=
mily:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "jti": "3d0c3cf797584bd193bd0fb1bd4e7<wbr>d=
30",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "iat": 1458496025,<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif">&nbsp; "iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://sci=
m.example.com</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; "aud": [<u></u><u></=
u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Co=
urier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a href=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Fe=
eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underli=
ne" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510293=
18m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cre=
med cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.example.com/Feed<wbr>s/98d52461fa=
5bbc879593b7754</a>",<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "<a hr=
ef=3D"https://jhub.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"col=
or:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://jhub.=
example.com/Feed<wbr>s/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</a>"<u></u><u></u></pre><pr=
e style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',=
serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; ],<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp; "event": {<=
u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font=
-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=
=80=9D:<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt">"<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__schemas.openid.net_secevent_risc_event-2Dtype_=
-255C&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp=
;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0z=
F2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D25l09sH8YV42xzgU-CXSg8xH9tvyDJz40tCRjFalhkw=
&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">http://schemas.o<wbr>penid.net/secevent/risc/event-<wbr>type/\</a><=
/span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10=
pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;account-credential-change-req<wbr>uired<span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D=
"font-size:13.5pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Csub=E2=80=9D:=E2=80=
=9D7375626A656374=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0=
in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Ciss=E2=80=9D:"<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a h=
ref=3D"https://idp.example.com/%E2%80%9C" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorat=
ion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961=
53279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://idp.example.com<wbr>/=E2=80=
=9C</a>,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{</span><u></u><u></u=
></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Cou=
rier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"urn:ietf:params:<wbr>scim:event=
:passwordReset=E2=80=9D,</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>"id":=E2=80=
=9D44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d<wbr>9=E2=80=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D:{<u></u><u><=
/u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'C=
ourier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=
=80=9Cevent_type=E2=80=9D:"<a href=3D"https://example.com/scim/event/passwor=
dResetExt" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D=
"_blank">https://example.<wbr>com/scim/event/passwordResetEx<wbr>t</a>=E2=80=
=9D,<u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt=
;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; "resetAttempts":5<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt"> </span><u></=
u><u></u></pre><div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fon=
t-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;}<u></u><u></u></pre></div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">}</span><u></u><u></u></pre><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
re><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier=
 New',serif"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">This format fo=
llows the proposed singular event format recursively and is 3 layers deep. N=
ote that the parser has to continue to search the document for things that a=
ren=E2=80=99t there as it has to stop when no =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D attrib=
ute is found rather than iterate over an array.</span><u></u><u></u></pre></=
div><pre style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courie=
r New',serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></pre></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phil<br><br>Oracl=
e Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br>@independentid<br><a hre=
f=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid=
.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;=
r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2=
ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3D9sYhgpEzb7xPlQFmCCXNmHo6fQN9IBu-SHJamg_B4Hs&a=
mp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank">www.independentid.com</a><br><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a><u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0i=
n 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"=
cite"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Oct 30, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Richard Backman, A=
nnabelle &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6=
337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">richanna@amazon.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div>=
</div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Replies inline.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans=
-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Ti=
mes New Roman',serif">--&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New=
 Roman',serif">Annabelle Richard Backman</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:=
'Times New Roman',serif">Identity Services</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><=
/div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:C=
alibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div styl=
e=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(=
181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt">From:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633=
7440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778156=
1080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645=
6080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt">Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=
=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763=
46946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026530=
1m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span=
></b>Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM<br><b>To:<span class=3D"m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246=
660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dick Hardt=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-deco=
ration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315=
1445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408=
96153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035=
742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402=
937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4=
026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decorati=
on:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615=
3279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.=
ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jone=
s@microsoft.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946=
956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</sp=
an></a>&gt;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@ama=
zon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazon.com</span></a>&gt;, ID E=
vents Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:p=
urple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"co=
lor:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958=
776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>R=
e: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?</span><u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I hope this ans=
wers your question.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"m=
argin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgro=
und-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backg=
round-color:white">My =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D was because I can=E2=80=99t see a=
 reason why not. The question should be, what is the justification to make =E2=
=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D singular?<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgr=
ound-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]The singul=
ar =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim has clearer semantics and is easier to proc=
ess. We should opt for easier solutions unless there are use cases that requ=
ire more complexity.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><=
div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">There are many reasons for multiple e=
vents in a SET.&nbsp; Some are good, some not so good. Some of the reasons..=
.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&=
nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">1.&nbsp; Multiple event payloads expressing statements about largely the *=
same*thing. For example, SCIM password reset AND RISC password reset.&nbsp; A=
 RISC Event and an OpenBanking Event. Is one a complement to the other?&nbsp=
; Do they overlap or are they distinct? &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[rich=
anna]Copy/pasted from my earlier email:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Why i=
s it necessary or appropriate to include these events in the same SET? They a=
re likely being generated by different systems at different times on the tra=
nsmitter=E2=80=99s side, consumed by different systems on the receiver=E2=80=
=99s side, and possibly being transmitted over different event streams. I kn=
ow the latter would be the case for us, as a receiver. Even if it=E2=80=99s n=
ot, is it burdensome to send these events separately? What value is gained i=
n combining them?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-co=
lor:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(19=
5,70,224)">Additionally, since the signature is over the SET and not the eve=
nt objects, Receivers independently route separate events from a single toke=
n without either losing the ability to verify the authenticity of the event o=
r sharing all information in the SET with every system handling any event in=
 the token.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u=
></u></div></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">2.&n=
bsp; Multiple events payloads expressing different statements about the same=
 transaction - RISC Password Reset and RISC Session Cancel<br><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]Same as above[/richanna]</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">3.&nbsp; A new p=
rofile defines new event attributes to be added on to an existing event type=
 (a pure extension)&nbsp;<br><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna=
]I have suggested a way to support extensions within an event body, multiple=
 times now. If you see problems with it, please point them out.[/richanna]</=
span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">I think it is quite valid to allow 1 and 3. &nbsp;2 could be limited b=
y specific profiles like RISC if they want.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><=
div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">I am not in agreement that maki=
ng event singular simplifies anything. For one is makes extensions complex (=
another nested JSON structure) and potentially conflicting.&nbsp;<br><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">Way=
s that multiple-event SETs are more complicated:</span><u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:=
initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">It results in a more comp=
lex structure for the single event use case, which I think we all agree is t=
he majority use case.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb=
(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;back=
ground-repeat:initial initial">Multiple-event SETs have ambiguous semantics.=
 The presence of two events A and B in the same SET could mean any of:<u></u=
><u></u></li></ol><ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><ol=
 start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial i=
nitial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are related to the same logic=
al event (i.e. the same thing as if they were from different SETs that have a=
 common txn).<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,2=
24);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-re=
peat:initial initial">A is an extension of B.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-posit=
ion:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">B is an extension of A=
.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);backgro=
und-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initia=
l initial">They are aliases for one another.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;color:rgb(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-positi=
on:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">They are not actually r=
elated to one another in any way.<u></u><u></u></li></ol></ol><ol start=3D"3=
" type=3D"1" style=3D"margin-bottom:0in"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(195,70,224);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;bac=
kground-repeat:initial initial">Claim semantics become harder to define, as d=
ifferent profiles may want to use the same claims in different ways.<u></u><=
u></u></li></ol></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">If the W=
G wants to block 1 and 2 above, then I believe we have to establish an event=
 registry to ensure new Event profiles do not overlap to eliminate the need t=
o express multiple events.<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
background-color:white"><span style=3D"color:rgb(195,70,224)">[richanna]I=E2=
=80=99m not sure what you mean by this. Are you referring to event names? Th=
ose are already defined by the spec to be URIs.[/richanna]</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>=
<div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"=
>Phil<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0=
.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white=
">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11p=
t;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white">@independentid<u></=
u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><a href=
=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.=
com&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX4anNZfzX=
7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DKBwKPFnqY_Q95CTA__WGCYGTxrD7AGCxueoPXnKEUT0&a=
mp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683300=
4cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independentid.com</span></a><u></u>=
<u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151=
445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil=
.hunt@oracle.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;ba=
ckground-color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgr=
ound-color:white">On Oct 29, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed c=
remed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">dick.hardt@gmail.com</=
span></a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-=
color:white">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;backgrou=
nd-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-seri=
f">Phil:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0=
in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:w=
hite"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;<=
/span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:whi=
te"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">In your e=
xamples for having a plurality of events, you use the word "may", which lead=
s me to question if a plurality of events is really required in SET.</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">You posit that it w=
ill be difficult for a distributed system to correlate multiple SETs with th=
e same "txn", but the distributed system will certainly need to correlate ev=
ents on the same subject -- correlating events on the same "txn" on the same=
 subject seems fairly simple.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:H=
elvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">I think that a receiver will need to correlate multiple S=
Ets on the same subject, so having multiple events in a SET is redundant, an=
d adds complexity with no clear benefit that I can see.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">An implementor may choose to se=
nd multiple SETs, or send a single SET with multiple events, so a receiver w=
ill need to support both. I prefer we pick one way and minimize the code pat=
hs, and we will need to support correlating across multiple SETs, so that se=
ems the best mechanism.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-se=
rif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helveti=
ca,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica=
,sans-serif">Let me know if there is something I missed in my logic.</span><=
u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001=
pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt=
;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">/Dick</span><u></u=
><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u></u><=
u></u></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span><u><=
/u><u></u></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 11:=
28 AM, Yaron Sheffer<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-13298524602470=
35742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m=
_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"color:purple">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><wbr>&gt;<span c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50138548614102=
65301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-styl=
e:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvet=
ica,sans-serif">In that case, let's add text to that effect, e.g. we could a=
dd to the definition of the "events" claim:<br><br>Profiling specifications S=
HOULD define the allowed event statements, and MAY restrict their number. Fo=
r example, some profiles may require this claim to contain only a single eve=
nt statement.<br><br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958=
776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron=
<br><br>On 24/10/17 22:10, Mike Jones wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></div></div=
><blockquote style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1p=
t;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5=
pt 4.8pt" type=3D"cite"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 12pt;=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white;backgro=
und-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I agree with much of Phil=E2=
=80=99s rationale here.<br><br>It=E2=80=99s fine for some profiles to say th=
at the =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D set must be a singleton.&nbsp; That doesn=E2=
=80=99t have to be true for all events.&nbsp; I think things are fine as-is.=
<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr>&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778=
7755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>-- Mike<br><br>*From:* Id-event [mailto:<a=
 href=3D"mailto:id-event-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-ev=
ent-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</span></a>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt<br>*Sent:* Mo=
nday, October 23, 2017 8:47 PM<br>*To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510=
29318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">richanna@amazo=
n.com</span></a>&gt;<br>*Cc:* ID Events Mailing List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i=
d-event@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"=
m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694=
6956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" t=
arget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">id-event@ietf.org</span></a>&g=
t;<br>*Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?<br><b=
r>Annabelle,<br><br>I have a number of concerns with this proposal.<br><br>P=
rofiling Independence / Keeping Event Payloads Independent<br><br>Indicating=
 that extensions should be handled by profiles leads to more inter-operabili=
ty issues and more importantly intrudes on the Event payload space by sugges=
ting a sub-schema creates potential limitations and conflicts that may add t=
o complexity later on. The current format allows a parser to discover and un=
load one or more JSON payloads which can each have independent structure.<br=
><br>General extensions<br><br>The proposal also rules out general purpose e=
xtensions not related to any specific event. Given the emergence of items li=
ke GPRD, I would not want to block the ability to add meta-data or other gen=
eral purpose items. We can also anticipate some delivery scenarios where add=
itional data might be required. Even though there is no current planned use,=
 I see no good reason to rule this out.<br><br>Multiple Events =46rom Differ=
ent Families (vs. Multiple Events from a single family like RISC)<br><br>In o=
ur RISC session we discussed expressing multiple distinct RISC events in one=
 SET. The discussion was that only one RISC event at a time. We did not disc=
uss other event profiles. I don=E2=80=99t see a reason to rule out multi-eve=
nts from different families at the SET level. Each profile is expressing sli=
ghtly different things about the same event.<br><br>I can forsee some cases w=
here it is not clear which is the primary and which is the extension.&nbsp; T=
here may not be a clear winner.<br><br>A couple of examples (these are neces=
sarily real=E2=80=A6just possibilities):<br><br>* It is probably useful to b=
e able to express simlar/overlapping events from different SET profiles in o=
ne SET.&nbsp; For example a Backchannel Logout &amp; a RISC session cancel e=
vent.<br><br>* SCIM may want to represent a single transaction as causing mu=
ltiple state changes in an event (e.g. a password change causes multiple eff=
ects). Having to chase down multiple events and correlate by =E2=80=9Ctxn=E2=
=80=9D would be challenging in a multi-threaded/multi-node delivery system.&=
nbsp; &nbsp;The SCIM list has not discussed this, but I would not want to bl=
ock this capability.&nbsp; IOW - Just because RISC does not want to express m=
ultiple events does not make this true for other profiles.<br><br>* We may w=
ish to indicate a SCIM Password Reset was performed and a Logout/session can=
cellation is expressed at the same time.&nbsp; The events are related but ex=
press different data.<br><br>Avoiding Confusion =46rom Similar Events Origin=
ating from the Same Transaction<br><br>If events are sent separately, then m=
ore tracking of state (e.g. by txn) would be required to ensure similar even=
ts are not mistaken or handled as repeats. While txn provides useful audit a=
nalysis capability, I=E2=80=99m not sure it can be used in live or near-real=
 time systems given distributed multi-node, multi-threading architectures.<b=
r><br>Previous Discussion<br><br>I note that I originally raised having an a=
ttribute to designate primary event attribute to alleviate your concern, but=
 this was not accepted. See:<br><br>*<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_568340293778=
1561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623=
6456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2D=
event_current_msg00406.html&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8B=
v7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=
=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DS3sMViqMvEgnwGbJwOQNy=
crOyr7Sefpq_MoFOKcEeCE&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845102=
9318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834c=
remed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.iet=
f.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-event/current/msg<wbr>00406.html</span></a><b=
r><br>*<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459=
58451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-=
5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-s=
pace">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_id-2Devent_current_msg00140.html&am=
p;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5=
FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxu=
ruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3DGy9gyRoIIta-cShV7bN161ay4yE6r9G1_Aa_NeBnylg&amp;e=3D=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed=
 m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar<wbr>chive/web/id-=
event/current/msg<wbr>00140.html</span></a><br><br>The consensus, at least a=
s I interpreted it is up to the receiver to figure this out based on the def=
initions it has for each event URI and the profiles they represent. IOW - RI=
SC is free to limit that only one RISC event be expressed at a time.<br><br>=
Phil<br><br>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect<br><br>@in=
dependentid<br><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh=
ttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp=
;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP5namg6rIVzwun9c-=
1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:und=
erline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451=
029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">www.independe=
ntid.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327983=
4m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-437778775=
5873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.=
com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1Yum=
CXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkA=
I1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DYBCGlK9mjjhcFsj-2tDkn31Auxuruib9KATkRlQG1iw&amp;s=3D9NP=
5namg6rIVzwun9c-1q0whsyXwSvtHB0f2dKkfCX8&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;tex=
t-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purpl=
e">http://<wbr>www.independentid.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br><a href=3D"mailto=
:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" clas=
s=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476=
346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed crem=
ed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">phil.hunt@oracle.com</spa=
n></a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595=
8451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5=
013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
le=3D"color:purple">p<wbr>hil.hunt@oracle.com</span></a>&gt;<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; On Oct 23, 2017, at 7:02 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle<br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richanna@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440=
896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">ri=
channa@amazon.com</span></a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-=
4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m402623645608034=
9644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:richann=
a@amazon.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">r<wbr>ichanna@amazon.com</span></a=
>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The current draft of the SET spec allo=
ws for expressing multiple<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; events within the same token, wh=
ich introduces additional complexity<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; and room for ambiguous=
 semantics. We=E2=80=99ve discussed this in the OIDF<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; RISC w=
orking group and the current consensus there is that RISC will<br>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; require that RISC events must be the only event in the SET, having<br>&n=
bsp; &nbsp; identified ways to clearly and easily support the handful of use=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; cases for multiple events per token that people have raise=
d. With<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; that context in mind, I propose striking the defini=
tion of the<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D claim from the Securit=
y Event Token spec, and replacing it<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; with the following def=
inition for an =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D claim (singular):<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; event<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; A JSON object containing an "event_type" member=
 whose value is a URI<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; representing a type of event defined i=
n a Profiling Specification.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; The object MAY otherwise be em=
pty, or MAY contain additional members<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; as described by the P=
rofiling Specification.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Here is the example SET from se=
ction 2.3, rewritten with this change<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; mind:<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-50=
13854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>{<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "jti": "4d3559ec67504aa=
ba65d40b0363fa<wbr>ad8",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "iat": 1458496404=
,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"iss": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.c=
om/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cre=
med m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com</span></a><span cl=
ass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74=
76346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-501385486141026=
5301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan>&lt;<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-dec=
oration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31=
51445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440=
896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">ht=
t<wbr>ps://scim.example.com/</span></a>&gt;",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nb=
sp; "aud": [<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https=
://scim.example.com/Feeds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754" style=3D"color:purple;t=
ext-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_=
6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/98d52461fa5bbc879593b7754</span></a=
>"<wbr>,<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"<a href=3D"https://s=
cim.example.com/Feeds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7" style=3D"color:purple;text-=
decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_=
-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337=
440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple"=
>https://scim.example.com/Fe<wbr>eds/5d7604516b1d08641d7676ee7</span></a>"<b=
r><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ],<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; "event=
": {<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "event_type": "urn:ietf:p=
arams:scim:event:cr<wbr>eate",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 "ref": "<a href=3D"https://scim.example.com/Users/44f6142df96bd6ab61e7521d9=
" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247=
035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed=
 m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">https://scim.example.com/User<wbr>s/44f6142df9=
6bd6ab61e7521d9</span></a>",<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "=
attributes": ["id", "name", "userName", "password", "emails"]<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Does anyone=
 in the working group have use cases for SETs that cannot<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; b=
e met by this proposed text? Within RISC, we identified three use<br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; cases, with solutions outlined below:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; **<br><br>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; *Extensions*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Event extension mechanisms ca=
n be defined internal to the event<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; object. A simple approac=
h would be to &nbsp;define an =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D member<br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; that is a list of event objects (or set resembling the =E2=80=9Cevents=
=E2=80=9D<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; claim as defined in the current spec). This has t=
he advantage of<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; making it clear in the data structure that t=
here is a single primary<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; event, with zero or more extension=
s. There is no room for confusion<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; over which event is prima=
ry, or if there is a primary event at all.<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; I would be fine w=
ith adding something like this to my proposed text,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; if ther=
e is consensus that it is broadly useful.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Aliases*<br>=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; This use case was brought up in the context of migrating c=
lients<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; from draft event names to standardized event names. I=
n this case,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; the event transmitter can transmit two tokens f=
or the logical event,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; one using the old name and another us=
ing the new name.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; *Related Events*<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 The SET spec defines the txn claim as a means of correlating<br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p; independent tokens that relate to the same logical event.<br><br>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; --<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445=
958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m=
-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Annabelle Richard Backman<br><br>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; ___________=
___________________<wbr>_________________<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; Id-event mailing l=
ist<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532798=
34m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080m-43777877=
55873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644appl=
e-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span sty=
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683402937781561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m695877698024666=
0703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;mailto:<a hr=
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318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cr=
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_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_56834029377=
81561080m-4377787755873208935m-5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m40262=
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ed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">Id-event@ietf.org</span><=
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153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</span></a></span><u></u><u></=
u></p></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-=
size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>_____________________________=
_<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-eve=
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</blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt=
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m4026236456080349644apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><u></u><u></u=
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5013854861410265301m6958776980246660703m4026236456080349644apple-converted-s=
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NZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp-MJ20ui2nm46Q=
Sz0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956=
833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" targe=
t=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;c=
olor:purple;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;backg=
round-repeat:initial initial">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwI=
CAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna=
5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DU-a5HBND0HaTX<wbr>4an=
NZfzX7pDsfK5f0h9mZ9CZkkGiec<wbr>&amp;s=3DrvdrtI7rYNRAnqZDltCwBAZVHKp<wbr>-MJ=
20ui2nm46QSz0&amp;e=3D</span></a><u></u><u></u></div></div></blockquote></di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"=
><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in=
 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u=
></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-=
serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63374408961532=
79834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-c=
onverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w&amp;s=3DwtgD3Np0vyhLdpEw=
Uiqsf4ItiwA3Om7Grob70Lx0r3k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:=
underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958=
451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089615327=
9834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-13298524=
60247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m=
_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn a=
bout projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margi=
n-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">______________________________<wbr=
>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ie=
tf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICA=
g&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqW=
Ny4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGCQ6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_=
qSC_w&amp;s=3DOe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1DVPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_63=
37440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-132985=
2460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://u=
rldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman=
_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLc=
LN4KZNA&amp;m=3DiyVnrZmr9_uGC<wbr>Q6MD0zF2ymRQS6lK67yF_8u8_qSC_w<wbr>&amp;s=3D=
Oe0qfLEX83vtXM7Wl2cYBe-Gg1D<wbr>VPjhXjVJkfhVRzwc&amp;e=3D</a><u></u><u></u><=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0i=
n 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><=
u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744089=
6153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Ap=
ple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv=
lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4=
KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9quj=
rC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514=
45958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896=
153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-132=
9852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695683=
3004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to le=
arn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D=
"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>=
<br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">&nbsp;<span class=3D"m_-=
1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_747634694695=
6833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></div></d=
iv><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144595845=
1029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<u></=
u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span c=
lass=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7=
476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><=
a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.co=
m_&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea2=
1QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;=
e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">HARDTWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-conver=
ted-space">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<u=
></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></span></div></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-13298524602470357=
42m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br><br clear=3D"all"><u></u><u></u></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.00=
01pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">--<span class=3D"m_-1329=
852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833=
004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subscribe to the<span class=3D"m_=
-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_74763469469=
56833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"=
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3D=
DwMGaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
manqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXp=
EVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DV9gyTTX9qujrC2VliwLPy0-KvxS9pYKJ_-kyDapwO8k&amp;e=3D" sty=
le=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" class=3D"m_-132985246024703574=
2m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1=
329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">HARD=
TWARE</a><span class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-315144=
5958451029318m_7476346946956833004m_5683402937781561080Apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span>mail list to learn about projects I am working on!<u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></font></span></div></div><span=
 class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m=
_7476346946956833004HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255);float:none;display:inline!important">______________________________<w=
br>_________________</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Id-event mailing list</span=
><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" style=3D=
"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
g:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=3D"m_-1329852=
460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004=
cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_=
blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a href=3D"https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinf=
o_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_=
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Zktcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZuKaXEbT5wu=
9rcORV0&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-famil=
y:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255)" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-31514459584510=
29318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834=
cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/u=
rl?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<wbr>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3D=
DwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r<wbr>=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP<wbr>kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3DsIGz8gur4wNqZ<wbr>k=
tcmagv5Ea21QEip4HXpEVKRa0qhlo<wbr>&amp;s=3DgdNrs7UDAttpabjM5ndOXwWKmZu<wbr>K=
aXEbT5wu9rcORV0&amp;e=3D</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:n=
ormal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></font></span></di=
v></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________=
_______<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cremed m_-1329852460=
247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf=
.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3DWgSxaGY2szLNY2pvZLIU-OmBFEkwrzR3P4pC1N0D-t8&amp;s=3DDyaPmvYSTL3a3Yicb4=
AoEgJGAaNNxz8jsrgcbZaOsdc&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834m_-3151445958451029318m_7476346946956833004cr=
emed m_-1329852460247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"m_-1329852460247035742m_633744=
0896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZ=
h8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3DWgSxaGY2szLNY2pvZLIU-OmBFEkwrzR3P4pC1N0D-t8&amp;s=3DDyaPmvYSTL3a3Yicb4=
AoEgJGAaNNxz8jsrgcbZaOsdc&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" class=3D"m_-132985246=
0247035742m_6337440896153279834cremed cremed" target=3D"_blank">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Id-event mailing list</span><br>=
<span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br><=
span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.i=
etf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZ=
YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&amp;m=3DWgSxaGY2szLNY2pvZLIU-OmBFEkwrzR3P4pC1N0D-t8&amp;s=3DDyaPmvYSTL3a3=
Yicb4AoEgJGAaNNxz8jsrgcbZaOsdc&amp;e=3D">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Marius Scurtescu <mscurtescu@google.com>
CC: William Denniss <wdenniss@google.com>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, "ID Events Mailing List" <id-event@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Use cases for multiple events per SET?
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 10:21:33 2017
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:21:22 -0500
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Subject: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts 
about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, 
the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts 
working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being 
described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the 
conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects 
of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this 
principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express 
either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could 
cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as 
Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where. 
To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the 
event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:


{
  iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
  sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the 
issuer (if known), no format assumed
  iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with 
the event time
  aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from 
the view of the issuer of the sET
  exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
  event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their 
definitions in here
     toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time 
is unknown
     iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by 
the recipient
     sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced 
by event.iss
     txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
     event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood 
by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional 
fields and their semantics
  }
}

And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:

event: {
   event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
   <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, 
sub, etc>
   events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular 
event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements 
defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
    ]
}

Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that 
can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way 
people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good 
thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the 
components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in 
the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.

 Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it feels 
like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.

 -- Justin



From nobody Mon Nov 13 18:35:49 2017
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?

Phil

Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
@independentid
www.independentid.com =
<http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com =
<mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some =
thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. =
Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from the =
Consent Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single =
event being described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM =
came to the conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express =
multiple aspects of a single event in a single token. While I still =
agree with this principle, I can see now that it's too much of a =
temptation to express either multiple events or bend around the =
semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now think that =
we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go even =
further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles =
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm =
proposing that we do something like this:
>=20
>=20
> {
> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of =
the issuer (if known), no format assumed
> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused =
with the event time
> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from =
the view of the issuer of the sET
> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their =
definitions in here
>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event =
time is unknown
>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known =
by the recipient
>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, =
namespaced by event.iss
>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be =
understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other =
additional fields and their semantics
> }
> }
>=20
> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>=20
> event: {
>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, =
toe, sub, etc>
>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the =
regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root =
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root =
event's common attributes
>   ]
> }
>=20
> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients =
that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the =
way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a =
good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all =
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand =
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all =
or nothing.
>=20
> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it =
feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>=20
> -- Justin
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> =
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
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class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: =
0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud =
Services Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.independentid.com" =
class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; =
widows: =
2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper =
some thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's =
meeting. Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from =
the Consent Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a =
single event being described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually =
SCIM came to the conersation, the group decided to try out a way to =
express multiple aspects of a single event in a single token. While I =
still agree with this principle, I can see now that it's too much of a =
temptation to express either multiple events or bend around the =
semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now think that =
we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go even =
further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles =
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm =
proposing that we do something like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">{<br class=3D""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer =
of the SET itself<br class=3D""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the =
subject of the SET from the &nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no =
format assumed<br class=3D""> iat: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was =
created, not to be confused with the event time<br class=3D""> aud: =
&lt;-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from the =
view of the issuer of the sET<br class=3D""> exp: &lt;-- timestamp of =
when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br class=3D""> event: { =
&lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their =
definitions in here<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;-- =
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is =
unknown<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace =
for the subject of this event, as known by the recipient<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub: &lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the =
recipient, namespaced by event.iss<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: =
&lt;-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this =
event's type, must be understood by recipient (who can do a string =
match), can define other additional fields and their semantics<br =
class=3D""> }<br class=3D"">}<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">And to Leif's =
point, to have a group event we would do:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">event: {<br class=3D""> &nbsp;event_type: =
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&lt;any event =
attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, =
etc&gt;<br class=3D""> &nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event =
objects with the semantics of the regular event object, taken all at =
once; can re-use any of the root event elements defined in SET but must =
not repeat any in the root event's common attributes<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class=3D"">}<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Event groups =
create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that can handle =
events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way people were =
describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good thing -- =
it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the =
components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything =
in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or =
nothing.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes this is a change from current =
syntax and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent =
receipt part of the roots.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- Justin<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
ZNA&amp;m=3Dy2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=3DFZu1FlqDXh=
YE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=3D<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 11:42:16 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each 
event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow 
additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:

event: {
  event_type: "foo:bar",
  foo: thing,
  bar: other-thing
  ...
}

And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could 
easily do something like:


event: {
  event_type: "foo:bar",
  foo: thing,
   bar: other-thing,
   baz: extension-thing
}

Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You 
could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like 
overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know 
and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack 
inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type 
will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.

 -- Justin



On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>
> Phil
>
> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
> @independentid
> www.independentid.com <http://www.independentid.com/>phil.hunt@oracle.com 
> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts 
>> about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, 
>> the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts 
>> working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being 
>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the 
>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects 
>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this 
>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express 
>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could 
>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as 
>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where. 
>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the 
>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>
>>
>> {
>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the 
>> issuer (if known), no format assumed
>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the 
>> event time
>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from the 
>> view of the issuer of the sET
>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their 
>> definitions in here
>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is 
>>    unknown
>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by the 
>>    recipient
>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by 
>>    event.iss
>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood by 
>>    recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional fields 
>>    and their semantics
>> }
>> }
>>
>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>
>> event: {
>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, 
>>  etc>
>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular 
>>  event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements 
>>  defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>   ]
>> }
>>
>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that 
>> can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way 
>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good 
>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the 
>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in 
>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>
>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it feels 
>> like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>

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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">And you want to extend
"foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Or you could make the lvalue
"baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You could alternatively have an
"extensions" object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<div
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class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
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style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div
class=""
style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div
class=""><div class=""><div class="">Phil</div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class="">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div class="">@independentid</div><div class=""><a
href="http://www.independentid.com"
class="">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
class="">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">{<br
class=""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself<br
class=""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br class=""> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br class=""> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br class="">
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br
class=""> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br
class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br class="">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br class=""> }<br class="">}<br
class=""><br class="">And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would
do:<br class=""><br class="">event: {<br class=""> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=""> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br class="">
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class="">}<br class=""><br
class="">Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br class=""><br class="">Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br class=""><br class="">-- Justin<br class=""><br
class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">Id-event mailing list<br class=""><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class="">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br
class="">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=<br
class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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*Future Meetings*
Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
Proposal
Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71,
117371) on Work Session

--=20

*  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
*  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
*  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 i=
n Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15=
:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:=
00-18:00 at Google Singapore (<span style=3D"font-size:13px">70 Pasir Panja=
ng Road, #03-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><div><div><br></div>--=
 <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"=
0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,13=
6);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:=
arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><=
tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"pad=
ding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-a=
lign:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" heigh=
t=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;bor=
der-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;bord=
er-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bo=
ttom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><block=
quote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border=
-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;bord=
er-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom=
"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,=
198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:sm=
all;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font =
face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px=
"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-fam=
ily:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"marg=
in:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=
=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b>=
<br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px=
;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></tabl=
e></div></div>
</div></div>

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I worry this causes potential namespace conflicts.=20

I see complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which under=
mines the value for the new proposal over the existing one.=20

I would like to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as part o=
f the new proposal. =20

Phil

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each eve=
nt type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow additio=
nal bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>=20
> event: {
>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>   foo: thing,
>   bar: other-thing
>   ...
> }
>=20
> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you coul=
d easily do something like:
>=20
> event: {
>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>   foo: thing,
>    bar: other-thing,
>    baz: extension-thing
> }
>=20
> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You co=
uld alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like overkill.=
 JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care a=
bout and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the eve=
nt object, and multiple extensions to the same event type will already need t=
o know to stay out of each others' way.
>=20
> -- Justin
>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>=20
>> Phil
>>=20
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>=20
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thought=
s about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, t=
he event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts worki=
ng group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When=
 RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group=
 decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a=
 single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that i=
t's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend aroun=
d the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now think tha=
t we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go even furth=
er to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles should only ev=
er touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing that we do som=
ething like this:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> {
>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of th=
e issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with t=
he event time
>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from t=
he view of the issuer of the sET
>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their d=
efinitions in here
>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time=
 is unknown
>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by t=
he recipient
>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced b=
y event.iss
>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understoo=
d by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional fiel=
ds and their semantics
>>> }
>>> }
>>>=20
>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>=20
>>> event: {
>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, s=
ub, etc>
>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular=
 event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements d=
efined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>>   ]
>>> }
>>>=20
>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients tha=
t can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way peo=
ple were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good thing=
 -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the component=
s. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in the group=
. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>=20
>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it fee=
ls like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>=20
>>> -- Justin
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
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=3D
>>=20

--Apple-Mail-AE5858FE-441B-4D83-ACB0-1B2465A4E941
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I worry this causes potential namespac=
e conflicts.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature">I see complexity if each profile defines the method diff=
erently. Which undermines the value for the new proposal over the existing o=
ne.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMail=
Signature">I would like to see an extension mechanism that is standard for s=
et as part of the new proposal. &nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2=
017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jrich=
er@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>



<div style=3D"color: black;">
<div style=3D"color: black;">
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Extensions to event types just=

extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">And you want to extend
"foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Or you could make the lvalue
"baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You could alternatively have an
"extensions" object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: black;">
<p style=3D"color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; m=
argin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75e=
x; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div class=3D""><br cl=
ass=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:=
 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mo=
de: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"=
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:=
 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-=
text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -we=
bkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0=
, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break=
: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; w=
hite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-=
wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal=
; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-wo=
rd; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D=
""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -w=
ebkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0,=
 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-w=
idth: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-bre=
ak: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter=
-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;=
 white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; wor=
d-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-whit=
e-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: norm=
al; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n=
ormal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-w=
ord; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=
=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-n=
bsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: spac=
e; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span c=
lass=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: n=
ormal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;=
 -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div clas=
s=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D=
""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMDAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Dy-nsB_5PWOPF4jk66A_8uQuB=
ukZ43t9r2mjf9BqdEpo&amp;s=3DDXfrKtK1A6vBGba0C2IeyoFynO0GH3rY7kjx__knWzE&amp;=
e=3D" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2=
;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On N=
ov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=
=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-new=
line"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
{<br class=3D""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer of the SET itsel=
f<br class=3D""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the subject of the SET from=
 the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br class=3D""> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br class=3D""> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br class=3D""=
>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br clas=
s=3D""> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br c=
lass=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of=

this event, as known by the recipient<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifie=
r
for tying multiple events together<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br class=3D""> }<br class=3D"">}=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">And to Leif's point, to have a group event we w=
ould
do:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">event: {<br class=3D""> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br class=3D"">=

&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class=3D"">}<br class=3D""=
><br class=3D"">Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have=

clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes this is a change from current synt=
ax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- Justin<br class=3D""><br class=
=3D""><br class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br clas=
s=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a href=3D"https://urldef=
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FsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think there
are different values, but it is not clear.


On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>
> event: {
>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>   foo: thing,
>   bar: other-thing
>   ...
> }
>
> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
> could easily do something like:
>
> event: {
>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>   foo: thing,
>    bar: other-thing,
>    baz: extension-thing
> }
>
> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You
> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>
> -- Justin
>
> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts
>> about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally,
>> the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts
>> working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>
>>
>> {
>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the
>> issuer (if known), no format assumed
>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with
>> the event time
>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from
>> the view of the issuer of the sET
>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their
>> definitions in here
>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time
>> is unknown
>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by
>> the recipient
>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced
>> by event.iss
>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood
>> by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional
>> fields and their semantics
>> }
>> }
>>
>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>
>> event: {
>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe,
>> sub, etc>
>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular
>> event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements
>> defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>   ]
>> }
>>
>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that
>> can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>
>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=
>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
>> na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-
>> dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>


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<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and with=
in the event. I think there are different values, but it is not clear.<div>=
<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let&#39;s s=
ay
you&#39;ve got:</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0 bar: other-thing<br>
=C2=A0 ...<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could ea=
sily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 bar: other-thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could altern=
atively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in practi=
ce is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others&#39; way. </p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D=
"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><=
div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-2952035695073037356Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independ=
entid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></d=
iv></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-295203569=
5073037356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today&#39;s meeting. Originally, the eve=
nt
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it&#39;s too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I&#39;m propo=
sing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string represe=
nting the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string representing the =
subject of the SET from the
=C2=A0view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn&#39;t be processed anymore<br=
> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>=
 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event&#39;s type=
,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif&#=
39;s point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> =C2=A0event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> =C2=A0&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
=C2=A0events: [ =C2=A0&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event&#39=
;s
common attributes<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some in=
terop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that&#39;s actua=
lly
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>-- Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wb=
r>_________________<br>Id-event mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://url=
defense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_i=
d-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn=
E&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Dy2OPleUr8EEEM=
vEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=3DFZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_w=
OOdcD-g&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/=
v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-<wbr>2Devent&amp=
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mp;r=3D<wbr>na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPk<wbr>AI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D<wbr>y=
2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-<wbr>dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=3D<wbr>FZu1FlqDXhYE2G=
zdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9<wbr>CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=3D</a><br></div></div></blockquote=
></div><br></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
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r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"htt=
p://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn abou=
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To: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Plan for the Week
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Correction: the Wednesday meeting is from 10:30 to 12:30.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com<mailto:lcamer=
y@google.com>> wrote:

Future Meetings
Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET Propo=
sal
Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 11=
7371) on Work Session

--
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  *  Luke Camery
  *  Associate Product Manager
  *  Federated Identity

_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
Id-event@ietf.org<mailto:Id-event@ietf.org>
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
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</head>
<body dir=3D"auto">
Correction: the Wednesday meeting is from 10:30 to 12:30.<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:46 AM, Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@goo=
gle.com">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>
Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET Propo=
sal
<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane</div>
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I withdraw my concern about extensions.=20

Extensions can be added to grouping event type just like we did for events. T=
hat means any one can extend any event, even risc. Same outcome just an extr=
a level of json for those of us who need it.=20

Phil

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> I worry this causes potential namespace conflicts.=20
>=20
> I see complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which und=
ermines the value for the new proposal over the existing one.=20
>=20
> I would like to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as par=
t of the new proposal. =20
>=20
> Phil
>=20
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>=20
>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each ev=
ent type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow additi=
onal bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>=20
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>   bar: other-thing
>>   ...
>> }
>>=20
>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you cou=
ld easily do something like:
>>=20
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>    bar: other-thing,
>>    baz: extension-thing
>> }
>>=20
>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You c=
ould alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like overkill=
. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care a=
bout and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the eve=
nt object, and multiple extensions to the same event type will already need t=
o know to stay out of each others' way.
>>=20
>> -- Justin
>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:=

>>>=20
>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>=20
>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some though=
ts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally,=
 the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts wor=
king group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. Wh=
en RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the gro=
up decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in=
 a single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that=
 it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend aro=
und the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now think t=
hat we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go even fur=
ther to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles should only e=
ver touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing that we do so=
mething like this:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> {
>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of t=
he issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with=
 the event time
>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from t=
he view of the issuer of the sET
>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their d=
efinitions in here
>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event tim=
e is unknown
>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by=
 the recipient
>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced=
 by event.iss
>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understo=
od by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional fie=
lds and their semantics
>>>> }
>>>> }
>>>>=20
>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>=20
>>>> event: {
>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe,=
 sub, etc>
>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regula=
r event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements=
 defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attribute=
s
>>>>   ]
>>>> }
>>>>=20
>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients th=
at can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way pe=
ople were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good thin=
g -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the componen=
ts. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in the grou=
p. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it fe=
els like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>=20
>>>> -- Justin
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3Dy2OPleUr8EEEMvEM=
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e=3D
>>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I withdraw my concern about extensions=
.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
gnature">Extensions can be added to grouping event type just like we did for=
 events. That means any one can extend any event, even risc. Same outcome ju=
st an extra level of json for those of us who need it.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Ph=
il Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>I worry this=
 causes potential namespace conflicts.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignat=
ure"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I see complexity if each profi=
le defines the method differently. Which undermines the value for the new pr=
oposal over the existing one.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>=
</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I would like to see an extension mechan=
ism that is standard for set as part of the new proposal. &nbsp;<br><br>Phil=
</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div>



<div style=3D"color: black;">
<div style=3D"color: black;">
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Extensions to event types just=

extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">And you want to extend
"foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: "foo:bar",<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Or you could make the lvalue
"baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You could alternatively have an
"extensions" object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: black;">
<p style=3D"color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; m=
argin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@orac=
le.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.75e=
x; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div class=3D""><br cl=
ass=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:=
 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mo=
de: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"=
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:=
 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-=
text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -we=
bkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0=
, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break=
: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; w=
hite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-=
wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal=
; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-wo=
rd; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D=
""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp=
-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent=
: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -w=
ebkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0,=
 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-w=
idth: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-bre=
ak: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter=
-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;=
 white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; wor=
d-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-whit=
e-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: norm=
al; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: n=
ormal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-w=
ord; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=
=3D""><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-n=
bsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-i=
ndent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: spac=
e; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span c=
lass=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; line-height: n=
ormal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;=
 -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div clas=
s=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Phil</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D=
""></div><div class=3D"">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div class=3D"">@independentid</div><div class=3D""><a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__www.independentid.com=
&amp;d=3DDwMDAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3D=
na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Dy-nsB_5PWOPF4jk66A_8uQuB=
ukZ43t9r2mjf9BqdEpo&amp;s=3DDXfrKtK1A6vBGba0C2IeyoFynO0GH3rY7kjx__knWzE&amp;=
e=3D" class=3D"">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=3D"" style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2=
;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On N=
ov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" class=
=3D"">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-new=
line"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
{<br class=3D""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer of the SET itsel=
f<br class=3D""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the subject of the SET from=
 the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br class=3D""> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br class=3D""> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br class=3D""=
>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br clas=
s=3D""> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br c=
lass=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of=

this event, as known by the recipient<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifie=
r
for tying multiple events together<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br class=3D""> }<br class=3D"">}=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">And to Leif's point, to have a group event we w=
ould
do:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">event: {<br class=3D""> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br class=3D"">=

&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class=3D"">}<br class=3D""=
><br class=3D"">Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have=

clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes this is a change from current synt=
ax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- Justin<br class=3D""><br class=
=3D""><br class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br clas=
s=3D"">Id-event mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.o=
rg" class=3D"">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a href=3D"https://urldef=
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e></div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>_=
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ing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.=
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:36:19 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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It ultimately is up to the extensions of a given event type to stay out of 
each other's way. I think the best thing for us would be to provide 
guidance. I don't think it's going to be a problem in practice as it's 
unlikely that two extensions to the same event type will be mutually 
unaware of each other.


On November 14, 2017 11:48:48 AM "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> 
wrote:

> I worry this causes potential namespace conflicts.
>
> I see complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which 
> undermines the value for the new proposal over the existing one.
>
> I would like to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as part 
> of the new proposal.
>
> Phil
>
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each 
>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow 
>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>   bar: other-thing
>>   ...
>> }
>>
>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could 
>> easily do something like:
>>
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>    bar: other-thing,
>>    baz: extension-thing
>> }
>>
>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You 
>> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like 
>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know 
>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack 
>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type 
>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts 
>>>> about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, 
>>>> the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts 
>>>> working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being 
>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the 
>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects 
>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this 
>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express 
>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could 
>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as 
>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where. 
>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the 
>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the 
>>>> issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the 
>>>> event time
>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from the 
>>>> view of the issuer of the sET
>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their 
>>>> definitions in here
>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is 
>>>>    unknown
>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by the 
>>>>    recipient
>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by 
>>>>    event.iss
>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood by 
>>>>    recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional fields 
>>>>    and their semantics
>>>> }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>
>>>> event: {
>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, 
>>>>  etc>
>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular 
>>>>  event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements 
>>>>  defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>>>   ]
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that 
>>>> can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way 
>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good 
>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the 
>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in 
>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it feels 
>>>> like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>
>>>> -- Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>

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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">It ultimately is up to the
extensions of a given event type to stay out of each other's way. I think
the best thing for us would be to provide guidance. I don't think it's
going to be a problem in practice as it's unlikely that two extensions to
the same event type will be mutually unaware of each other. </p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 11:48:48 AM &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot;
&lt;phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div>I worry this causes potential namespace conflicts.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I see
complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which undermines
the value for the new proposal over the existing one.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I would like
to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as part of the new
proposal. &nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM,
Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>



<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
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class=""><div
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class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div
class=""
style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div
class=""><div class=""><div class="">Phil</div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class="">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div class="">@independentid</div><div class=""><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=DwMDAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=y-nsB_5PWOPF4jk66A_8uQuBukZ43t9r2mjf9BqdEpo&amp;s=DXfrKtK1A6vBGba0C2IeyoFynO0GH3rY7kjx__knWzE&amp;e="
class="">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
class="">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">{<br
class=""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself<br
class=""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br class=""> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br class=""> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br class="">
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br
class=""> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br
class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br class="">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br class=""> }<br class="">}<br
class=""><br class="">And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would
do:<br class=""><br class="">event: {<br class=""> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=""> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br class="">
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class="">}<br class=""><br
class="">Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br class=""><br class="">Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br class=""><br class="">-- Justin<br class=""><br
class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">Id-event mailing list<br class=""><a
href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" class="">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br
class=""><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&amp;s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=</a><br
class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div>


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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:38:37 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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Yes, they're intended to be potentially different values but could be the 
same in some circumstances. Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other is 
"event.sub".  I'd be perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to 
"event.event_sub" or something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an 
object type is also perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what 
the regular "event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from 
the perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective 
of the receiver of the SET.

 -- Justin


On November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think there
> are different values, but it is not clear.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>   bar: other-thing
>>   ...
>> }
>>
>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
>> could easily do something like:
>>
>> event: {
>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>   foo: thing,
>>    bar: other-thing,
>>    baz: extension-thing
>> }
>>
>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You
>> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>
>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>> @independentid
>>> www.independentid.com
>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts
>>> about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally,
>>> the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts
>>> working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>
>>>
>>> {
>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the
>>> issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with
>>> the event time
>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from
>>> the view of the issuer of the sET
>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their
>>> definitions in here
>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time
>>> is unknown
>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by
>>> the recipient
>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced
>>> by event.iss
>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood
>>> by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional
>>> fields and their semantics
>>> }
>>> }
>>>
>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>
>>> event: {
>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe,
>>> sub, etc>
>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular
>>> event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements
>>> defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>>   ]
>>> }
>>>
>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that
>>> can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>
>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>
>>> -- Justin
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.
>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=
>>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
>>> na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-
>>> dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
> projects I am working on!

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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Yes, they're intended to be
potentially different values but could be the same in some circumstances.
Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other is "event.sub".&nbsp; I'd be
perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to "event.event_sub" or
something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an object type is also
perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what the regular
"event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from the
perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective of
the receiver of the SET.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt;
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and within the
event. I think there are different values, but it is not
clear.<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div
class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span
dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span
class="m_-2952035695073037356Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a
href="http://www.independentid.com"
target="_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="m_-2952035695073037356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string
representing the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string
representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br>
event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif's
point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some
interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>--
Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a
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</div></div></div>
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
CC: <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:43:48 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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Yes, if you want your extensions to have their own full object structure 
and have it be completely separate, you can use the group syntax. I think 
you can also, with this syntax, have a simpler extension mechanism that 
says "just add the 'baz' field into the exsting event object and it means 
'qux'".

 -- Justin


On November 14, 2017 1:11:04 PM "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> I withdraw my concern about extensions.
>
> Extensions can be added to grouping event type just like we did for events. 
> That means any one can extend any event, even risc. Same outcome just an 
> extra level of json for those of us who need it.
>
> Phil
>
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>> I worry this causes potential namespace conflicts.
>>
>> I see complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which 
>> undermines the value for the new proposal over the existing one.
>>
>> I would like to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as part 
>> of the new proposal.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each 
>>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow 
>>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>>
>>> event: {
>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>   foo: thing,
>>>   bar: other-thing
>>>   ...
>>> }
>>>
>>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you could 
>>> easily do something like:
>>>
>>> event: {
>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>   foo: thing,
>>>    bar: other-thing,
>>>    baz: extension-thing
>>> }
>>>
>>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You 
>>> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like 
>>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know 
>>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack 
>>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type 
>>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>>
>>> -- Justin
>>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts 
>>>>> about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, 
>>>>> the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts 
>>>>> working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being 
>>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the 
>>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects 
>>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this 
>>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express 
>>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could 
>>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as 
>>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where. 
>>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the 
>>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of the 
>>>>> issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the 
>>>>> event time
>>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from the 
>>>>> view of the issuer of the sET
>>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their 
>>>>> definitions in here
>>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is 
>>>>>    unknown
>>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by the 
>>>>>    recipient
>>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by 
>>>>>    event.iss
>>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be understood by 
>>>>>    recipient (who can do a string match), can define other additional fields 
>>>>>    and their semantics
>>>>> }
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>>
>>>>> event: {
>>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, 
>>>>>  etc>
>>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the regular 
>>>>>  event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event elements 
>>>>>  defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common attributes
>>>>>   ]
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients that 
>>>>> can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way 
>>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good 
>>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the 
>>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in 
>>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it feels 
>>>>> like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
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>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=xKhV2MrBhCnkvNpmfi1YxQW93GgUhANRCR8Cv0CbVtk&s=o2UMy3X8NKTXg2j84FbImFb6F7V2QrPxTkiVslrpUXE&e=

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<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Yes, if you want your
extensions to have their own full object structure and have it be
completely separate, you can use the group syntax. I think you can also,
with this syntax, have a simpler extension mechanism that says
"just add the 'baz' field into the exsting event object and it means 'qux'".
</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 1:11:04 PM &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot;
&lt;phil.hunt@oracle.com&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<div>I withdraw my concern about extensions.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Extensions
can be added to grouping event type just like we did for events. That means
any one can extend any event, even risc. Same outcome just an extra level
of json for those of us who need it.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:48
AM, Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt;
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>I worry this causes
potential namespace conflicts.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I see
complexity if each profile defines the method differently. Which undermines
the value for the new proposal over the existing one.&nbsp;</div><div
id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I would like
to see an extension mechanism that is standard for set as part of the new
proposal. &nbsp;<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On Nov 14, 2017, at 11:42 AM,
Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>



<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
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class=""><div
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class=""><div
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class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
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class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
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class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"
class=""><div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px;"><div
class=""
style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div
class=""><div class=""><div class="">Phil</div><div class=""><br
class=""></div><div class="">Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div class="">@independentid</div><div class=""><a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.independentid.com&amp;d=DwMDAg&amp;c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=y-nsB_5PWOPF4jk66A_8uQuBukZ43t9r2mjf9BqdEpo&amp;s=DXfrKtK1A6vBGba0C2IeyoFynO0GH3rY7kjx__knWzE&amp;e="
class="">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" class=""
style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
class="">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="">I wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">{<br
class=""> iss: &lt;-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself<br
class=""> sub: &lt;-- string representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br class=""> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br class=""> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br class="">
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br
class=""> event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br
class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br class="">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br class=""> }<br class="">}<br
class=""><br class="">And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would
do:<br class=""><br class="">event: {<br class=""> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br class=""> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br class="">
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br class=""> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class="">}<br class=""><br
class="">Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br class=""><br class="">Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br class=""><br class="">-- Justin<br class=""><br
class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br
class="">Id-event mailing list<br class=""><a
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:46:36 +0800
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Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between
"sub" and "event.sub". Do you have an example that highlight the semantic
difference?

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Yes, they're intended to be potentially different values but could be the
> same in some circumstances. Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other is
> "event.sub".  I'd be perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to
> "event.event_sub" or something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an
> object type is also perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what
> the regular "event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from
> the perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective
> of the receiver of the SET.
>
> -- Justin
>
> On November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think
>> there are different values, but it is not clear.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
>>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
>>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>>
>>> event: {
>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>   foo: thing,
>>>   bar: other-thing
>>>   ...
>>> }
>>>
>>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
>>> could easily do something like:
>>>
>>> event: {
>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>   foo: thing,
>>>    bar: other-thing,
>>>    baz: extension-thing
>>> }
>>>
>>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You
>>> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
>>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
>>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
>>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
>>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>>
>>> -- Justin
>>>
>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some
>>>> thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting.
>>>> Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent
>>>> Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> {
>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of
>>>> the issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with
>>>> the event time
>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from
>>>> the view of the issuer of the sET
>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their
>>>> definitions in here
>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event
>>>> time is unknown
>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by
>>>> the recipient
>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced
>>>> by event.iss
>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be
>>>> understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other
>>>> additional fields and their semantics
>>>> }
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>
>>>> event: {
>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe,
>>>> sub, etc>
>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the
>>>> regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event
>>>> elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common
>>>> attributes
>>>>   ]
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients
>>>> that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>>>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>
>>>> -- Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iet
>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>> lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq
>>>> PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-
>>>> kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>


-- 
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--94eb2c148268424aca055deaea03
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Justin, I&#39;m having a hard time understanding the d=
ifference between &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;event.sub&quot;. Do you have an=
 example that highlight the semantic difference?</div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Justi=
n Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D=
"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Yes, they&#39;re intended to be
potentially different values but could be the same in some circumstances.
Syntactically, one is &quot;sub&quot; and the other is &quot;event.sub&quot=
;.=C2=A0 I&#39;d be
perfectly happy renaming the &quot;event.sub&quot; claim to &quot;event.eve=
nt_sub&quot; or
something, and I think the &quot;risc_subject&quot; with an object type is =
also
perfectly reasonable as it&#39;s providing data beyond what the regular
&quot;event.sub&quot; would do (as a string). Semantically, &quot;sub&quot;=
 is from the
perspective of the issuer of the SET and &quot;event.sub&quot; is the persp=
ective of
the receiver of the SET.</p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and with=
in the
event. I think there are different values, but it is not
clear.<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let&#39;s s=
ay
you&#39;ve got:</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0 bar: other-thing<br>
=C2=A0 ...<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 bar: other-thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others&#39; way. </p><span class=3D"m_6665166047717965785H=
OEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"m_6665166047717965785h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><=
div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073=
037356Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:separate;line-height:norma=
l;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Ph=
il</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independ=
entid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></d=
iv></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_6665166047=
717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I wante=
d to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today&#39;s meeting. Originally, the eve=
nt
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it&#39;s too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I&#39;m propo=
sing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string
representing the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string
representing the subject of the SET from the
=C2=A0view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn&#39;t be processed anymore<br=
>
event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event&#39;s type=
,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif&#=
39;s
point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> =C2=A0event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> =C2=A0&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
=C2=A0events: [ =C2=A0&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event&#39=
;s
common attributes<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some
interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that&#39;s actua=
lly
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>--
Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>I=
d-event
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-e=
vent@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Dy2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg=
&amp;s=3DFZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iet<w=
br>f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Dev<wbr>ent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXC=
gaWHv<wbr>lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;<wbr>r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyX=
PpuYq<wbr>PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3Dy2OPleUr8EEE<wbr>MvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxs=
B-<wbr>kpYFg&amp;s=3DFZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbj<wbr>YGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&amp;e=
=3D</a><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"m_6665166047717965785gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatu=
re"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe =
to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> ma=
il list to
learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
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projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
CC: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:11:29 +0800
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/UwMhMHJfRybhvELDEPWEG3Hbn7Y>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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Sure, here's a somewhat concrete strawman. Let's say you've got an event 
issued by the RP in an identity system, sending information to another 
party (either the IdP or someone else). The "subject" from the OIDC 
perspective is what you'd find in an ID Token, say "abcd-1234". This only 
makes sense in the contex of the IdP's issuer, "https://id.example.com/", 
so it doesn't make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer. 
However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP, 
"rp-client-id-1234" in the OIDC world or even "https://rp.example.net/" in 
a wider ecosystem.

So in this example, we want to talk about a user "abcd-1234" from 
"https://id.example.com/", but it's "rp-client-id-1234" that's talking 
about that user. Which gives us:


{
  "iss": "rp-client-1234",
  "event": {
    "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
    "sub": "abcd-1234"
  }
}


So why would you use "sub" at the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has 
their own, independent way to look at the user. In our case, let's say the 
RP has a local username identifier of "user-9876", you could have:

{
  "iss": "rp-client-1234",
  "sub": "user-9876",
  "event": {
    "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
    "sub": "abcd-1234"
  }
}


I think that the use of "sub" at the root should be less common than the 
use of "event.sub", in th use cases that people have brought up here. I'm 
against using "sub" as a shortcut for "event.sub", as has been suggested.

 -- Justin



On November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between
> "sub" and "event.sub". Do you have an example that highlight the semantic
> difference?
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Yes, they're intended to be potentially different values but could be the
>> same in some circumstances. Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other is
>> "event.sub".  I'd be perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to
>> "event.event_sub" or something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an
>> object type is also perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what
>> the regular "event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from
>> the perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective
>> of the receiver of the SET.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>
>> On November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think
>>> there are different values, but it is not clear.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
>>>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
>>>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>>>
>>>> event: {
>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>   bar: other-thing
>>>>   ...
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
>>>> could easily do something like:
>>>>
>>>> event: {
>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>    bar: other-thing,
>>>>    baz: extension-thing
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever. You
>>>> could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
>>>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
>>>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
>>>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
>>>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>>>
>>>> -- Justin
>>>>
>>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>> @independentid
>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some
>>>>> thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting.
>>>>> Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent
>>>>> Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> {
>>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of
>>>>> the issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with
>>>>> the event time
>>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET, from
>>>>> the view of the issuer of the sET
>>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of their
>>>>> definitions in here
>>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event
>>>>> time is unknown
>>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known by
>>>>> the recipient
>>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced
>>>>> by event.iss
>>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be
>>>>> understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other
>>>>> additional fields and their semantics
>>>>> }
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>>
>>>>> event: {
>>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe,
>>>>> sub, etc>
>>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the
>>>>> regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event
>>>>> elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common
>>>>> attributes
>>>>>   ]
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients
>>>>> that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>>>>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iet
>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>> lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYq
>>>>> PkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-
>>>>> kpYFg&s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
> projects I am working on!

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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">Sure, here's a somewhat
concrete strawman. Let's say you've got an event issued by the RP in an
identity system, sending information to another party (either the IdP or
someone else). The "subject" from the OIDC perspective is what you'd find
in an ID Token, say "abcd-1234". This only makes sense in the contex of the
IdP's issuer,
"<a href="https://id.example.com/">https://id.example.com/</a>", so it
doesn't make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer.
However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP,
"rp-client-id-1234" in the OIDC world or even
"<a href="https://rp.example.net/">https://rp.example.net/</a>" in a wider
ecosystem. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">So in this example, we want to
talk about a user "abcd-1234" from
"<a href="https://id.example.com/">https://id.example.com/</a>", but it's
"rp-client-id-1234" that's talking about that user. Which gives us:<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">{<br>
&nbsp; "iss": "rp-client-1234",<br>
&nbsp; "event": {<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iss":
"<a href="https://id.example.com/">https://id.example.com/</a>",<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "sub": "abcd-1234"<br>
&nbsp; }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">So why would you use "sub" at
the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has their own, independent way to
look at the user. In our case, let's say the RP has a local username
identifier of "user-9876", you could have:</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">{<br>
  "iss": "rp-client-1234",<br>
&nbsp; "sub": "user-9876",<br>
  "event": {<br>
    "iss": "<a href="https://id.example.com/">https://id.example.com/</a>",<br>
    "sub": "abcd-1234"<br>
  }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">I think that the use of "sub"
at the root should be less common than the use of "event.sub", in th use
cases that people have brought up here. I'm against using "sub" as a
shortcut for "event.sub", as has been suggested.</p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr">Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference
between &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;event.sub&quot;. Do you have an example
that highlight the semantic difference?</div><div
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at
1:38 PM, Justin Richer <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Yes, they're intended to be
potentially different values but could be the same in some circumstances.
Syntactically, one is &quot;sub&quot; and the other is
&quot;event.sub&quot;.&nbsp; I'd be
perfectly happy renaming the &quot;event.sub&quot; claim to
&quot;event.event_sub&quot; or
something, and I think the &quot;risc_subject&quot; with an object type is also
perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what the regular
&quot;event.sub&quot; would do (as a string). Semantically, &quot;sub&quot;
is from the
perspective of the issuer of the SET and &quot;event.sub&quot; is the
perspective of
the receiver of the SET.</p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target="_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir="ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and within the
event. I think there are different values, but it is not
clear.<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div
class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span
dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p><span
class="m_6665166047717965785HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class="m_6665166047717965785h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span
class="m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a
href="http://www.independentid.com"
target="_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I
wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string
representing the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string
representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br>
event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif's
point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some
interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>--
Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:19:55 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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Thanks Justin.

What value would there be to the IdP to have the RP's identifier? Is there
a reason the IdP needs it?

I worry about the privacy implications of sharing the additional identifier
that the RP has that the IdP does not have.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

> Sure, here's a somewhat concrete strawman. Let's say you've got an event
> issued by the RP in an identity system, sending information to another
> party (either the IdP or someone else). The "subject" from the OIDC
> perspective is what you'd find in an ID Token, say "abcd-1234". This only
> makes sense in the contex of the IdP's issuer, "https://id.example.com/",
> so it doesn't make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer.
> However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP,
> "rp-client-id-1234" in the OIDC world or even "https://rp.example.net/"
> in a wider ecosystem.
>
> So in this example, we want to talk about a user "abcd-1234" from "
> https://id.example.com/", but it's "rp-client-id-1234" that's talking
> about that user. Which gives us:
>
> {
>   "iss": "rp-client-1234",
>   "event": {
>     "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
>     "sub": "abcd-1234"
>   }
> }
>
> So why would you use "sub" at the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has
> their own, independent way to look at the user. In our case, let's say the
> RP has a local username identifier of "user-9876", you could have:
>
> {
>   "iss": "rp-client-1234",
>   "sub": "user-9876",
>   "event": {
>     "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
>     "sub": "abcd-1234"
>   }
> }
>
> I think that the use of "sub" at the root should be less common than the
> use of "event.sub", in th use cases that people have brought up here. I'm
> against using "sub" as a shortcut for "event.sub", as has been suggested.
>
> -- Justin
>
> On November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between
>> "sub" and "event.sub". Do you have an example that highlight the semantic
>> difference?
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, they're intended to be potentially different values but could be
>>> the same in some circumstances. Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other
>>> is "event.sub".  I'd be perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to
>>> "event.event_sub" or something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an
>>> object type is also perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what
>>> the regular "event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from
>>> the perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective
>>> of the receiver of the SET.
>>>
>>> -- Justin
>>>
>>> On November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think
>>>> there are different values, but it is not clear.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
>>>>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
>>>>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>>>>
>>>>> event: {
>>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>>   bar: other-thing
>>>>>   ...
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
>>>>> could easily do something like:
>>>>>
>>>>> event: {
>>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>>    bar: other-thing,
>>>>>    baz: extension-thing
>>>>> }
>>>>>
>>>>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever.
>>>>> You could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
>>>>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
>>>>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
>>>>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
>>>>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>
>>>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some
>>>>>> thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting.
>>>>>> Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent
>>>>>> Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>>>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>>>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>>>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>>>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>>>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>>>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>>>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>>>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>>>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> {
>>>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of
>>>>>> the issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused
>>>>>> with the event time
>>>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET,
>>>>>> from the view of the issuer of the sET
>>>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of
>>>>>> their definitions in here
>>>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event
>>>>>> time is unknown
>>>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known
>>>>>> by the recipient
>>>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient,
>>>>>> namespaced by event.iss
>>>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be
>>>>>> understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other
>>>>>> additional fields and their semantics
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> event: {
>>>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn,
>>>>>> toe, sub, etc>
>>>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the
>>>>>> regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event
>>>>>> elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common
>>>>>> attributes
>>>>>>   ]
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients
>>>>>> that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>>>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>>>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>>>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>>>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>>>>>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iet
>>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>>> lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP
>>>>>> kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg
>>>>>> &s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>


-- 
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
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--089e0828c024a9d52f055ded0eb0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Justin.<div><br></div><div>What value would there b=
e to the IdP to have the RP&#39;s identifier? Is there a reason the IdP nee=
ds it?</div><div><br></div><div>I worry about the privacy implications of s=
haring the additional identifier that the RP has that the IdP does not have=
.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Sure, here&#39;s a somewhat
concrete strawman. Let&#39;s say you&#39;ve got an event issued by the RP i=
n an
identity system, sending information to another party (either the IdP or
someone else). The &quot;subject&quot; from the OIDC perspective is what yo=
u&#39;d find
in an ID Token, say &quot;abcd-1234&quot;. This only makes sense in the con=
tex of the
IdP&#39;s issuer,
&quot;<a href=3D"https://id.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://id.exam=
ple.com/</a>&quot;, so it
doesn&#39;t make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer.
However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP,
&quot;rp-client-id-1234&quot; in the OIDC world or even
&quot;<a href=3D"https://rp.example.net/" target=3D"_blank">https://rp.exam=
ple.net/</a>&quot; in a wider
ecosystem. </p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">So in this example, we want to
talk about a user &quot;abcd-1234&quot; from
&quot;<a href=3D"https://id.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://id.exam=
ple.com/</a>&quot;, but it&#39;s
&quot;rp-client-id-1234&quot; that&#39;s talking about that user. Which giv=
es us:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">{<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;rp-client-1234&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;:
&quot;<a href=3D"https://id.example.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://id.exam=
ple.com/</a>&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;abcd-1234&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">So why would you use &quot;sub&qu=
ot; at
the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has their own, independent way to
look at the user. In our case, let&#39;s say the RP has a local username
identifier of &quot;user-9876&quot;, you could have:</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">{<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;rp-client-1234&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;user-9876&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"https://id.example.com=
/" target=3D"_blank">https://id.example.com/</a>&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;abcd-1234&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">I think that the use of &quot;sub=
&quot;
at the root should be less common than the use of &quot;event.sub&quot;, in=
 th use
cases that people have brought up here. I&#39;m against using &quot;sub&quo=
t; as a
shortcut for &quot;event.sub&quot;, as has been suggested.</p><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey Justin, I&#39;m having a hard time understanding the d=
ifference
between &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;event.sub&quot;. Do you have an example
that highlight the semantic difference?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at
1:38 PM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.=
edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Yes, they&#39;re intended to be
potentially different values but could be the same in some circumstances.
Syntactically, one is &quot;sub&quot; and the other is
&quot;event.sub&quot;.=C2=A0 I&#39;d be
perfectly happy renaming the &quot;event.sub&quot; claim to
&quot;event.event_sub&quot; or
something, and I think the &quot;risc_subject&quot; with an object type is =
also
perfectly reasonable as it&#39;s providing data beyond what the regular
&quot;event.sub&quot; would do (as a string). Semantically, &quot;sub&quot;
is from the
perspective of the issuer of the SET and &quot;event.sub&quot; is the
perspective of
the receiver of the SET.</p><span class=3D"m_-5134685151401967520HOEnZb"><f=
ont color=3D"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5134685151401967520h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and with=
in the
event. I think there are different values, but it is not
clear.<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style=3D"color:black">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let&#39;s s=
ay
you&#39;ve got:</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0 bar: other-thing<br>
=C2=A0 ...<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
=C2=A0 event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
=C2=A0 foo: thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 bar: other-thing,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others&#39; way. </p><span class=3D"m_-5134685151401967520=
m_6665166047717965785HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p style=3D"margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5134685151401967520m_666516604771=
7965785h5">
<div style=3D"color:black">
<p style=3D"color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:=
10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@ora=
cle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.75e=
x;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><=
div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal=
;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wo=
rd-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfor=
m:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-wo=
rd"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word=
-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=3D"m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717=
965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:sepa=
rate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.independ=
entid.com" target=3D"_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></d=
iv></span><a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hu=
nt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jricher@mit.edu" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-513468515=
1401967520m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-interchange-newl=
ine"><div><div>I
wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today&#39;s meeting. Originally, the eve=
nt
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it&#39;s too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I&#39;m propo=
sing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string
representing the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string
representing the subject of the SET from the
=C2=A0view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn&#39;t be processed anymore<br=
>
event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event&#39;s type=
,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif&#=
39;s
point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> =C2=A0event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> =C2=A0&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
=C2=A0events: [ =C2=A0&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event&#39=
;s
common attributes<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some
interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that&#39;s actua=
lly
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>--
Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>I=
d-event
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-e=
vent@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
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</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
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><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717965785gmail_signature" data-smar=
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"m_-5134685151401967520gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatur=
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
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From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/id-event/fxwjH5iFdA7vbXXc68M2sV-80Z0>
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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For the strawman, no, the IdP wouldn't need it. An audit system that knows 
about the RP's storage/lookup might need it. That's why, if we include it 
in the spec, we'd want some language making it clear that it's only within 
the view of the party generating the SET and that if it's for consumption 
externally the user should be identified by a field in the event, or event.sub.

 -- Justin


On November 14, 2017 4:20:25 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Justin.
>
> What value would there be to the IdP to have the RP's identifier? Is there
> a reason the IdP needs it?
>
> I worry about the privacy implications of sharing the additional identifier
> that the RP has that the IdP does not have.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> Sure, here's a somewhat concrete strawman. Let's say you've got an event
>> issued by the RP in an identity system, sending information to another
>> party (either the IdP or someone else). The "subject" from the OIDC
>> perspective is what you'd find in an ID Token, say "abcd-1234". This only
>> makes sense in the contex of the IdP's issuer, "https://id.example.com/",
>> so it doesn't make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer.
>> However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP,
>> "rp-client-id-1234" in the OIDC world or even "https://rp.example.net/"
>> in a wider ecosystem.
>>
>> So in this example, we want to talk about a user "abcd-1234" from "
>> https://id.example.com/", but it's "rp-client-id-1234" that's talking
>> about that user. Which gives us:
>>
>> {
>>   "iss": "rp-client-1234",
>>   "event": {
>>     "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
>>     "sub": "abcd-1234"
>>   }
>> }
>>
>> So why would you use "sub" at the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has
>> their own, independent way to look at the user. In our case, let's say the
>> RP has a local username identifier of "user-9876", you could have:
>>
>> {
>>   "iss": "rp-client-1234",
>>   "sub": "user-9876",
>>   "event": {
>>     "iss": "https://id.example.com/",
>>     "sub": "abcd-1234"
>>   }
>> }
>>
>> I think that the use of "sub" at the root should be less common than the
>> use of "event.sub", in th use cases that people have brought up here. I'm
>> against using "sub" as a shortcut for "event.sub", as has been suggested.
>>
>> -- Justin
>>
>> On November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference between
>>> "sub" and "event.sub". Do you have an example that highlight the semantic
>>> difference?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, they're intended to be potentially different values but could be
>>>> the same in some circumstances. Syntactically, one is "sub" and the other
>>>> is "event.sub".  I'd be perfectly happy renaming the "event.sub" claim to
>>>> "event.event_sub" or something, and I think the "risc_subject" with an
>>>> object type is also perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what
>>>> the regular "event.sub" would do (as a string). Semantically, "sub" is from
>>>> the perspective of the issuer of the SET and "event.sub" is the perspective
>>>> of the receiver of the SET.
>>>>
>>>> -- Justin
>>>>
>>>> On November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Justin: you have "sub" above the event, and within the event. I think
>>>>> there are different values, but it is not clear.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Extensions to event types just extend the event object itself. So each
>>>>>> event type controls the namespace within its event object and can allow
>>>>>> additional bits in it. So let's say you've got:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> event: {
>>>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>>>   bar: other-thing
>>>>>>   ...
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you want to extend "foo:bar" with the "foo:bar:baz" extension you
>>>>>> could easily do something like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> event: {
>>>>>>   event_type: "foo:bar",
>>>>>>   foo: thing,
>>>>>>    bar: other-thing,
>>>>>>    baz: extension-thing
>>>>>> }
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or you could make the lvalue "baz" to be "foo:bar:baz" or whatever.
>>>>>> You could alternatively have an "extensions" object, but that seems like
>>>>>> overkill. JSON in practice is schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know
>>>>>> and care about and ignore everything else. So extensions can just stack
>>>>>> inside the event object, and multiple extensions to the same event type
>>>>>> will already need to know to stay out of each others' way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oracle Corporation, Identity Cloud Services Architect
>>>>>>> @independentid
>>>>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanted to take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some
>>>>>>> thoughts about the syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting.
>>>>>>> Originally, the event snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent
>>>>>>> Receipts working group in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being
>>>>>>> described. When RISC, OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the
>>>>>>> conersation, the group decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects
>>>>>>> of a single event in a single token. While I still agree with this
>>>>>>> principle, I can see now that it's too much of a temptation to express
>>>>>>> either multiple events or bend around the semantics in ways that could
>>>>>>> cause a lot of confusion. I now think that we should collapse the syntax as
>>>>>>> Annabelle has suggested and go even further to specify what can go where.
>>>>>>> To wit, SET payload profiles should only ever touch the things inside the
>>>>>>> event object. So I'm proposing that we do something like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>> iss: <-- string representing the issuer of the SET itself
>>>>>>> sub: <-- string representing the subject of the SET from the  view of
>>>>>>> the issuer (if known), no format assumed
>>>>>>> iat: <-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused
>>>>>>> with the event time
>>>>>>> aud: <-- array or string repreesnting the recipients of this SET,
>>>>>>> from the view of the issuer of the sET
>>>>>>> exp: <-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore
>>>>>>> event: { <-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all of
>>>>>>> their definitions in here
>>>>>>>    toe: <-- timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event
>>>>>>> time is unknown
>>>>>>>    iss: <-- issuer namespace for the subject of this event, as known
>>>>>>> by the recipient
>>>>>>>    sub: <-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient,
>>>>>>> namespaced by event.iss
>>>>>>>    txn: <-- transaction identifier for tying multiple events together
>>>>>>>    event_type: <-- URI representing this event's type, must be
>>>>>>> understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define other
>>>>>>> additional fields and their semantics
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to Leif's point, to have a group event we would do:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> event: {
>>>>>>>  event_type: urn:ietf:secevent:event_group
>>>>>>>  <any event attributes that are common to the whole set, like txn,
>>>>>>> toe, sub, etc>
>>>>>>>  events: [  <-- array of event objects with the semantics of the
>>>>>>> regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root event
>>>>>>> elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's common
>>>>>>> attributes
>>>>>>>   ]
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Event groups create some interop issues, as you need to have clients
>>>>>>> that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with the way
>>>>>>> people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually a good
>>>>>>> thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all the
>>>>>>> components. If you get an event group, you need to understand everything in
>>>>>>> the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or nothing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes this is a change from current syntax and semantics, but to me it
>>>>>>> feels like a return to the consent receipt part of the roots.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iet
>>>>>>> f.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHv
>>>>>>> lZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqP
>>>>>>> kAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=y2OPleUr8EEEMvEMVjHNWNm-dFJbnVcSztxsB-kpYFg
>>>>>>> &s=FZu1FlqDXhYE2GzdLPFsbjYGIS8UW9CdLs_wOOdcD-g&e=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
> projects I am working on!

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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<div style="color: black;">
<div style="color: black;">
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;">For the strawman, no, the IdP
wouldn't need it. An audit system that knows about the RP's storage/lookup
might need it. That's why, if we include it in the spec, we'd want some
language making it clear that it's only within the view of the party
generating the SET and that if it's for consumption externally the user
should be identified by a field in the event, or event.sub. </p>
<p style="margin: 0 0 1em 0; color: black;"> -- Justin</p>
</div>
<div style="color: black;">
<p
style="color: black; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; margin: 10pt 0;">On
November 14, 2017 4:20:25 PM Dick Hardt &lt;dick.hardt@gmail.com&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0 0 0 0.75ex; border-left: 1px solid #808080; padding-left: 0.75ex;">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr">Thanks Justin.<div><br></div><div>What value would there be to
the IdP to have the RP's identifier? Is there a reason the IdP needs
it?</div><div><br></div><div>I worry about the privacy implications of
sharing the additional identifier that the RP has that the IdP does not
have.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Justin Richer <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Sure, here's a somewhat
concrete strawman. Let's say you've got an event issued by the RP in an
identity system, sending information to another party (either the IdP or
someone else). The &quot;subject&quot; from the OIDC perspective is what
you'd find
in an ID Token, say &quot;abcd-1234&quot;. This only makes sense in the
contex of the
IdP's issuer,
&quot;<a href="https://id.example.com/"
target="_blank">https://id.example.com/</a>&quot;, so it
doesn't make sense to send the subject on its own without the issuer.
However, the issuer of the SET itself is going to be the RP,
&quot;rp-client-id-1234&quot; in the OIDC world or even
&quot;<a href="https://rp.example.net/"
target="_blank">https://rp.example.net/</a>&quot; in a wider
ecosystem. </p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">So in this example, we want to
talk about a user &quot;abcd-1234&quot; from
&quot;<a href="https://id.example.com/"
target="_blank">https://id.example.com/</a>&quot;, but it's
&quot;rp-client-id-1234&quot; that's talking about that user. Which gives
us:<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">{<br>
&nbsp; &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;rp-client-1234&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;iss&quot;:
&quot;<a href="https://id.example.com/"
target="_blank">https://id.example.com/</a>&quot;,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;abcd-1234&quot;<br>
&nbsp; }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">So why would you use &quot;sub&quot; at
the root? Only if the issuer of the SET has their own, independent way to
look at the user. In our case, let's say the RP has a local username
identifier of &quot;user-9876&quot;, you could have:</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">{<br>
&nbsp; &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;rp-client-1234&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;user-9876&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; &quot;event&quot;: {<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;iss&quot;: &quot;<a href="https://id.example.com/"
target="_blank">https://id.example.com/</a>&quot;,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;sub&quot;: &quot;abcd-1234&quot;<br>
&nbsp; }<br>
}<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">I think that the use of &quot;sub&quot;
at the root should be less common than the use of &quot;event.sub&quot;, in
th use
cases that people have brought up here. I'm against using &quot;sub&quot; as a
shortcut for &quot;event.sub&quot;, as has been suggested.</p><span
class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 1:47:05 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"
target="_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hey Justin, I'm having a hard time understanding the difference
between &quot;sub&quot; and &quot;event.sub&quot;. Do you have an example
that highlight the semantic difference?</div><div
class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at
1:38 PM, Justin Richer <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Yes, they're intended to be
potentially different values but could be the same in some circumstances.
Syntactically, one is &quot;sub&quot; and the other is
&quot;event.sub&quot;.&nbsp; I'd be
perfectly happy renaming the &quot;event.sub&quot; claim to
&quot;event.event_sub&quot; or
something, and I think the &quot;risc_subject&quot; with an object type is also
perfectly reasonable as it's providing data beyond what the regular
&quot;event.sub&quot; would do (as a string). Semantically, &quot;sub&quot;
is from the
perspective of the issuer of the SET and &quot;event.sub&quot; is the
perspective of
the receiver of the SET.</p><span
class="m_-5134685151401967520HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin</p>
</font></span></div><div><div class="m_-5134685151401967520h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 11:49:27 AM Dick Hardt &lt;<a
href="mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target="_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
<div dir="ltr">Justin: you have &quot;sub&quot; above the event, and within the
event. I think there are different values, but it is not
clear.<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div
class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 11:42 AM, Justin Richer <span
dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div>
<div style="color:black">
<div style="color:black">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Extensions to event types just
extend the event object itself. So each event type controls the namespace
within its event object and can allow additional bits in it. So let's say
you've got:</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp; bar: other-thing<br>
&nbsp; ...<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">And you want to extend
&quot;foo:bar&quot; with the &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; extension you could
easily do something
like:<br></p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">event: {<br>
&nbsp; event_type: &quot;foo:bar&quot;,<br>
&nbsp; foo: thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; bar: other-thing,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; baz: extension-thing<br>
}</p>
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black">Or you could make the lvalue
&quot;baz&quot; to be &quot;foo:bar:baz&quot; or whatever. You could
alternatively have an
&quot;extensions&quot; object, but that seems like overkill. JSON in
practice is
schema-by-fiat: you look for things you know and care about and ignore
everything else. So extensions can just stack inside the event object, and
multiple extensions to the same event type will already need to know to
stay out of each others' way. </p><span
class="m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717965785HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888">
<p style="margin:0 0 1em 0;color:black"> -- Justin<br>
</p>
</font></span></div><div><div
class="m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717965785h5">
<div style="color:black">
<p
style="color:black;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;margin:10pt 0">On
November 14, 2017 10:35:51 AM Phil Hunt &lt;<a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 0.75ex;border-left:1px solid #808080;padding-left:0.75ex">
How do you propose to handle extensions of event uris?<div><br></div><div><div>
<div
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style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><div><span
class="m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse:separate;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><div>Phil</div><div><br></div><div>Oracle
Corporation, Identity Cloud Services
Architect</div><div>@independentid</div><div><a
href="http://www.independentid.com"
target="_blank">www.independentid.com</a></div></div></div></div></span><a
href="mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com"
target="_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Nov 14,
2017, at 2:21 AM, Justin Richer &lt;<a href="mailto:jricher@mit.edu"
target="_blank">jricher@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br
class="m_-5134685151401967520m_6665166047717965785m_-2952035695073037356Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div>I
wanted to
take a few moments to get down on virtual-paper some thoughts about the
syntax and semantics of a SET from today's meeting. Originally, the event
snytax that we brought to the table from the Consent Receipts working group
in Kantara was very explicitly a single event being described. When RISC,
OIDC sessions, and eventually SCIM came to the conersation, the group
decided to try out a way to express multiple aspects of a single event in a
single token. While I still agree with this principle, I can see now that
it's too much of a temptation to express either multiple events or bend
around the semantics in ways that could cause a lot of confusion. I now
think that we should collapse the syntax as Annabelle has suggested and go
even further to specify what can go where. To wit, SET payload profiles
should only ever touch the things inside the event object. So I'm proposing
that we do something like this:<br><br><br>{<br> iss: &lt;-- string
representing the issuer of the SET itself<br> sub: &lt;-- string
representing the subject of the SET from the
&nbsp;view of the issuer (if known), no format assumed<br> iat:
&lt;-- timestamp of when the SET Was created, not to be confused with the
event time<br> aud: &lt;-- array or string repreesnting the
recipients of this SET, from the view of the issuer of the sET<br>
exp: &lt;-- timestamp of when the SET shouldn't be processed anymore<br>
event: { &lt;-- object for the event itself, SET profiles do all
of their definitions in here<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;toe: &lt;--
timestamp of the event, if known; if not present, event time is unknown<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;iss: &lt;-- issuer namespace for the subject of
this event, as known by the recipient<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sub:
&lt;-- subject of the event, as known by the recipient, namespaced by
event.iss<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;txn: &lt;-- transaction identifier
for tying multiple events together<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;event_type: &lt;-- URI representing this event's type,
must be understood by recipient (who can do a string match), can define
other additional fields and their semantics<br> }<br>}<br><br>And to Leif's
point, to have a group event we would
do:<br><br>event: {<br> &nbsp;event_type:
urn:ietf:secevent:event_group<br> &nbsp;&lt;any event attributes
that are common to the whole set, like txn, toe, sub, etc&gt;<br>
&nbsp;events: [ &nbsp;&lt;-- array of event objects with the semantics of
the regular event object, taken all at once; can re-use any of the root
event elements defined in SET but must not repeat any in the root event's
common attributes<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;]<br>}<br><br>Event groups create some
interop issues, as you need to have
clients that can handle events in a group as well as on their own. But with
the way people were describing event groups today, I think that's actually
a good thing -- it would force recognition of the associated nature of all
the components. If you get an event group, you need to understand
everything in the group. No primary/secondary, no pritical fields -- all or
nothing.<br><br>Yes this is a change from current syntax
and semantics, but to me it feels like a return to the consent receipt part
of the roots.<br><br>--
Justin<br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>Id-event
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Id-event@ietf.org"
target="_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br><a
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</div>
</div></div></div>
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div
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data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div
dir="ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href="http://hardtware.com/"
target="_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to
learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div
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From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Thoughts on Syntax from today's meeting
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From: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 04:35:47 +0000
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Subject: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
follow.

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:

> *Future Meetings*
> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
> Proposal
> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71,
> 117371) on Work Session
>
> --
>
> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Conf=
irmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcam=
ery@google.com">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday =
- 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<di=
v>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><d=
iv>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (<span style=3D"font-size:13px"=
>70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><div><d=
iv><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" borde=
r=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;m=
argin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:col=
lapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D=
"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;bor=
der:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,=
255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgu=
r.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px=
 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style=
:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-r=
ight-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-a=
lign:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></t=
d><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-styl=
e:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color=
:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=
=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D=
"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-=
size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b=
><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associ=
ate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"m=
argin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(2=
55,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666=
666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font><=
/blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>

--001a11473dae405e6f055dfe0a2a--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:01:29 +0800
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--94eb2c119f82b2b712055dfe66a1
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No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD to
schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to
reserve it for us.

If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can
have it later on.




On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:

> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
> follow.
>
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>
>> *Future Meetings*
>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
>> Proposal
>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71,
>> 117371) on Work Session
>>
>> --
>>
>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>


--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--94eb2c119f82b2b712055dfe66a1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">No one has that room currently at that time. I&#39;m tryin=
g to find an AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, p=
lease ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing else, we=
 can ask the people in that room right now if we can have it later on.</div=
><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke C=
amery <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3=
:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><b>Future M=
eetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s =
Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius=
&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (<sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13px">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371) on Work =
Session</span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_6801745544697574198m_-265205130716283995=
3gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"=
0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;=
line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-se=
rif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin=
:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;borde=
r:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img =
src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td =
style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:soli=
d;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255=
,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px=
 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:so=
lid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);b=
order-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:a=
rial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:ar=
ial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" col=
or=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></fon=
t><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px=
;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=
=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b=
 style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</=
b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Feder=
ated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"htt=
p://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn abou=
t projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--94eb2c119f82b2b712055dfe66a1--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Cc: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>, Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>,  Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD to
> schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to
> reserve it for us.
>
> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can
> have it later on.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>
>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
>> follow.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *Future Meetings*
>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
>>> Proposal
>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road,
>>> #03-71, 117371) on Work Session
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>



--=20
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projects I am working on!

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<div dir=3D"ltr">We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2=
017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.har=
dt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">No one has that room cur=
rently at that time. I&#39;m trying to find an AD to schedule it for us. If=
 anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<div>=
<br></div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right no=
w if we can have it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><=
/div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><=
div class=3D"h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room =
Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camer=
y &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@googl=
e.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth =
on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in t=
he Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Go=
ogle Singapore (<span style=3D"font-size:13px">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-7=
1, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><span class=3D"m_-107635314010104633=
HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_=
-107635314010104633m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signatu=
re"><div dir=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr"=
 border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:no=
rmal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collap=
se:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody st=
yle=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0=
px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rg=
b(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://=
i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"paddi=
ng:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right=
-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);bo=
rder-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vert=
ical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquo=
te></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-to=
p-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b=
 style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font co=
lor=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6=
" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D=
"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=
=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">=
Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color=
:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=
=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity=
</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-107635314010104633g=
mail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://har=
dtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about proje=
cts I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http:=
//hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about =
projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

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Cc: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>,  Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
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Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.

Sent from my phone.

On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD to
> schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to
> reserve it for us.
>
> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can
> have it later on.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>
>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
>> follow.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *Future Meetings*
>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
>>> Proposal
>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&e=
ntry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>70
>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&e=
ntry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>-71,
>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>



--=20
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projects I am working on!

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<div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon=
 as I get it.<br><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my p=
hone.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.=
hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution=
"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">We are confirmed to have Clark =
from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">No one has that room currently at that time. I&#39;m trying to find an A=
D to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them=
 to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the p=
eople in that room right now if we can have it later on.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, No=
v 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_561=
5710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room Clark =
from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annab=
elle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atriu=
m on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a =
href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%230=
3&amp;entry=3Dgmail&amp;source=3Dg">Singapore (</a><span style=3D"font-size=
:13px"><a href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+=
Road,+%2303&amp;entry=3Dgmail&amp;source=3Dg">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a=
>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><span class=3D"m_5615710805901951=
258m_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div=
>-- <br><div class=3D"m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633m_680174554=
4697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><table ce=
llspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:r=
gb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;bo=
rder:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed=
;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;=
border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td=
 style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:=
middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=
=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1p=
x 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-sty=
le:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,2=
55);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:c=
enter"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2=
px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-sty=
le:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border=
-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical=
-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;colo=
r:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D=
"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</fo=
nt></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0=
px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,=
0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" =
style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font=
><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;bor=
der:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8=
px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;=
padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></t=
body></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
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dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=
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</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:21:15 +0800
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Cc: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>,  Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>,  Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
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FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where we
were meeting earlier.


On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>
> Sent from my phone.
>
> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD to
>> schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them t=
o
>> reserve it for us.
>>
>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can
>> have it later on.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
>>> follow.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
>>>> Proposal
>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&=
entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>70
>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&=
entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>-71,
>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>
>
>


--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--94eb2c119f8268bc95055dfead46
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butte=
rworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><br></div></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 P=
M, Marius Scurtescu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtesc=
u@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting f=
or take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><div data-smart=
mail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:d=
ick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 =
at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">No one has that room current=
ly at that time. I&#39;m trying to find an AD to schedule it for us. If any=
one else comes across an AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br>=
</div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if=
 we can have it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div =
class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 201=
7 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@=
google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
/div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-73943969813=
40918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have th=
e room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke =
Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@=
google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butter=
worth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:0=
0 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00=
 at Google <a href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panj=
ang+Road,+%2303&amp;entry=3Dgmail&amp;source=3Dg" target=3D"_blank">Singapo=
re (</a><span style=3D"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?=
q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&amp;entry=3Dgmail&amp;source=3D=
g" target=3D"_blank">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Ses=
sion</span></div><span class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258=
m_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>--=
 <br><div class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-1076353140=
10104633m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"=
1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin=
:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse=
;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"marg=
in:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0=
px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,2=
55);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com=
/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;=
border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:soli=
d;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-=
color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:=
middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td=
 style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:sol=
id;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(=
255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"f=
ont-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =
=C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#66=
6666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D=
"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size=
:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><fo=
nt color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate =
Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margi=
n:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,2=
04,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666"=
 style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blo=
ckquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
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r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901=
951258HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_561571=
0805901951258m_-107635314010104633gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_=
signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sub=
scribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE=
</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></=
div></div></div>
</font></font></span></div><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></blockquote></div><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-7394396981340918457m_561571080590195125=
8gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://h=
ardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about pro=
jects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a hr=
ef=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to l=
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</div>

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:10:38 +0000
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To: Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>
Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>,  Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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--f403043bc9c489c858055e10f78e
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We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where we
> were meeting earlier.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>>
>> Sent from my phone.
>>
>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD t=
o
>>> schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them =
to
>>> reserve it for us.
>>>
>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can
>>> have it later on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will
>>>> follow.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET
>>>>> Proposal
>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303=
&entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>70
>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303=
&entry=3Dgmail&source=3Dg>-71,
>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>
--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--f403043bc9c489c858055e10f78e
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.</div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we have) =
is two rooms down from Butterworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><=
br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:marius.scurtescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Aw=
esome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br=
><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><di=
v class=3D"m_2750090645348104599HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599=
h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 20=
17 1:10 PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attrib=
ution"><blockquote class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div>We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:0=
1 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div>No one has that room currently at that time. I&#39;m try=
ing to find an AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD,=
 please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing else, =
we can ask the people in that room right now if we can have it later on.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_27500906453481045=
99m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12=
:35 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-73943969=
81340918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have=
 the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b>Futur=
e Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39=
;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Mar=
ius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a href=3D"=
https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasir+Panjang+Road,+%2303&amp;en=
try=3Dgmail&amp;source=3Dg" target=3D"_blank">Singapore (</a><span style=3D=
"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://maps.google.com/?q=3DSingapore+(70+Pasi=
r+Panjang+Road,+%2303&amp;entry=3Dgmail&amp;source=3Dg" target=3D"_blank">7=
0 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><span=
 class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m=
_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>-- =
<br><div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_561571080590=
1951258m_-107635314010104633m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmai=
l_signature"><div><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px=
;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;tab=
le-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0=
px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;h=
eight:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);=
vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4=
Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;bord=
er-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;bo=
rder-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-colo=
r:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:midd=
le;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td sty=
le=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;b=
order-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,=
255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-=
size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0=
</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">=
Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margi=
n:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small=
;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font col=
or=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Produc=
t Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;=
padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51)=
;font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=
=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquot=
e></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340=
918457m_5615710805901951258HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D=
"all"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_2750090=
645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-10763531401010463=
3gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><d=
iv>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HAR=
DTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></=
div></div></div></div>
</font></font></span></div><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></blockquote></div><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-739439698134091845=
7m_5615710805901951258gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><=
div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am work=
ing on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail=
_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://har=
dtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about proje=
cts I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtwar=
e.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>

--f403043bc9c489c858055e10f78e--


From nobody Wed Nov 15 19:16:40 2017
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From: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:16:06 +0800
Cc: Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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Agenda?

Phil

> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where we=
 were meeting earlier.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>=20
>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD t=
o schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to r=
eserve it for us.
>>>>=20
>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can=
 have it later on.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wro=
te:
>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will=
 follow.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote=
:
>>>>>> Future Meetings
>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SET=
 Proposal
>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-=
71, 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>> =09
>>>>>>   =E2=80=A2  Luke Camery
>>>>>>   =E2=80=A2  Associate Product Manager
>>>>>>   =E2=80=A2  Federated Identity
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am worki=
ng on!
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am workin=
g on!
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working=
 on!
>=20
> --=20
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE mail list to learn about projects I am working o=
n!
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Agenda?<br><br>Phil</div><div><br>On N=
ov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.=
com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.</div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hard=
t &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we ha=
ve) is two rooms down from Butterworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><di=
v><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:marius.scurtescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Aweso=
me. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><di=
v data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"m_2750090645348104599HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599h5"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10=
 PM, "Dick Hardt" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>We are confirmed t=
o have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>No one has tha=
t room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD to schedule it for u=
s. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<=
div><br></div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right=
 now if we can have it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div=
></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<div class=3D"m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_56157108059019512=
58h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_2750=
090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"au=
to">We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will f=
ollow.&nbsp;</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 1=
1:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterwort=
h on Annabelle's Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the A=
trium on Marius' Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a h=
ref=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.co=
m_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dg=
mail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8X=
GYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZ=
uloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Singapore (</a><span style=3D"font-=
size:13px"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252=
303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1=
IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">70 Pasir Panjang Roa=
d, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><span class=3D"m_27500906=
45348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633H=
OEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_27=
50090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-1076353140101=
04633m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div><table=
 cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136=
,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family=
:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><=
tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padd=
ing:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-ali=
gn:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D=
"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-t=
op-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px=
 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-s=
tyle:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,=
255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-famil=
y:arial">&nbsp; =E2=80=A2 &nbsp;</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:=
arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" co=
lor=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></fon=
t><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">&nbsp; =E2=
=80=A2 &nbsp;</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;bor=
der:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"ari=
al" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D=
"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">&nbsp; =E2=80=A2 &nbsp;</b><font co=
lor=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identi=
ty</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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L2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&=
amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy=
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srU&amp;s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D</a></span><=
br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:17:38 +0000
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>,  Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then distribution and con=
trol
plane time permitting.

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
wrote:

> Agenda?
>
> Phil
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where w=
e
>> were meeting earlier.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
>> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>
>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD
>>>> to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask t=
hem
>>>> to reserve it for us.
>>>>
>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we ca=
n
>>>> have it later on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation wil=
l
>>>>> follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote=
:
>>>>>
>>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SE=
T
>>>>>> Proposal
>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.=
com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-=
3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIr=
NJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&e=
=3D>70
>>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.=
com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-=
3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIr=
NJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&e=
=3D>-71,
>>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
B65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2=
R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AY=
Bdo8E&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWman=
qWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_c=
qsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSb=
IrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E=
&e=3D
>
> --
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--94eb2c1482688f15ed055e1110dc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and th=
en distribution and control plane time permitting.</div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Agenda?<br><br>P=
hil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dic=
k Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.=
hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.</div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (=
the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where we were meeting =
earlier.<br><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.sc=
urtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon =
as I get it.<br><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my ph=
one.</div></div><div class=3D"m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599HOE=
nZb"><div class=3D"m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599h5"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, &q=
uot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockq=
uote class=3D"m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918=
457quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div>We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 a=
t 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div>No one has that room currently at that time. I&#39;m =
trying to find an AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an =
AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing els=
e, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can have it later on.=
</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_31313244981015=
04111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On=
 Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lca=
mery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_3131324=
498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_561571080590195125=
8h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20.=
 Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>O=
n Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday -=
 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div=
>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><di=
v>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2B=
Panjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp=
;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqs=
rU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"=
_blank">Singapore (</a><span style=3D"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapo=
re-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3=
Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
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1258m_-107635314010104633m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_s=
ignature"><div><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" styl=
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>,  Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>,  Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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Could you please send a summary report to the list from the side meetings
for those of us that cannot attend?

Thank you,
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then distribution and c=
ontrol
> plane time permitting.
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Agenda?
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where
>>> we were meeting earlier.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
>>> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD
>>>>> to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask =
them
>>>>> to reserve it for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we
>>>>> can have it later on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation
>>>>>> will follow.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative
>>>>>>> SET Proposal
>>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google=
.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry=
-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
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e=3D>70
>>>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google=
.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry=
-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eap=
I_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbI=
rNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&=
e=3D>-71,
>>>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org=
_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrM=
UB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF=
2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_A=
YBdo8E&e=3D>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_=
cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWman=
qWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_c=
qsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D
>> na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D
>> 109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D
>> MHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&e=3D
>>
>> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--94eb2c1135da2e5998055e111946
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Could you please send a summary report to the list from th=
e side meetings for those of us that cannot attend?<div><br></div><div>Than=
k you,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick=
.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then=
 distribution and control plane time permitting.</div><div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil=
 Hunt (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">p=
hil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Agenda?<br><br>Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v><br>On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.h=
ardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><b=
r></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B=
 this afternoon at 3:30.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, N=
ov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down =
from Butterworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><br></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017=
 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtescu@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting for=
 take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><div data-smartma=
il=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div class=3D"m_-3375=
75948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599h5"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 =
PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><=
blockquote class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_27500906453=
48104599m_-7394396981340918457quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>We are confirmed to have Clark from =
1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>No one has that room curre=
ntly at that time. I&#39;m trying to find an AD to schedule it for us. If a=
nyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><b=
r></div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now =
if we can have it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><di=
v class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m=
_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35=
 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101=
504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><=
div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confi=
rmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue,=
 Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30=
-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thurs=
day - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Frid=
ay - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/=
url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjan=
g-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DR=
oP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXP=
puYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp=
;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank=
">Singapore (</a><span style=3D"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-=
2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp=
;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5=
FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9J=
bZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=
=3D" target=3D"_blank">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work S=
ession</span></div><span class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_313132449810150411=
1m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-1076353=
14010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div =
class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-=
7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633m_680174554469=
7574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div><table cellspacing=3D"0"=
 cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:1=
3px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,san=
s-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;b=
order:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><=
img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td>=
<td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:=
solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px=
 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-styl=
e:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,25=
5);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-fami=
ly:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-famil=
y:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial"=
 color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b><=
/font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=
=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding=
:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" fa=
ce=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font>=
<b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0=
</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Fed=
erated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL=
2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_31313244981015=
04111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258HOEnZb=
"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><font color=3D"#888888"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111=
m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-10763531=
4010104633gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><di=
v><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v=
2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DHj849A1b4Jsv=
XozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> m=
ail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></=
div></div>
</font></font></span></div><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></blockquote></div><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111=
m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258gmail_signa=
ture" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe=
 to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__ha=
rdtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF=
2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0Wzlm=
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ut projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_27500906453481045=
99gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><=
div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8B=
v7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;=
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t to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-337575948922754=
591m_3131324498101504111gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"=
><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.pr=
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YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuY=
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></div></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>I=
d-event mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span><a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_=
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p;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3D<wbr>RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIr<wbr>MUB65eapI_JnE&=
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L2tUrDyudmDM536Zz<wbr>w3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D</a></span><br></div></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div cl=
ass=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-33757594892275459=
1gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://h=
ardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about pro=
jects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org">Id-event@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>

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From: Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:30:01 -0800
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To: "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
Cc: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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Management API. I will walk through a comparison between the two proposals.

Not sure if we need to finish anything from yesterday's meeting.

Sent from my phone.

On Nov 16, 2017 11:16 AM, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Agenda?
>
> Phil
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where w=
e
>> were meeting earlier.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
>> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.
>>>
>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>
>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an AD
>>>> to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask t=
hem
>>>> to reserve it for us.
>>>>
>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we ca=
n
>>>> have it later on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation wil=
l
>>>>> follow.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote=
:
>>>>>
>>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative SE=
T
>>>>>> Proposal
>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.=
com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-=
3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIr=
NJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&e=
=3D>70
>>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.=
com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-=
3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI=
_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIr=
NJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&e=
=3D>-71,
>>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_=
mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMU=
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Bdo8E&e=3D>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWman=
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qsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
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srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
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> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
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> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
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> MHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&e=3D
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Management API. I will walk through a comparison between =
the two proposals.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Not sure if=
 we need to finish anything from yesterday&#39;s meeting.<br><br><div data-=
smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" dir=3D"auto">Sent from my phone.</div></div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2=
017 11:16 AM, &quot;Phil Hunt (IDM)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@o=
racle.com">phil.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Agenda?<br><br>Phil</div>=
<div><br>On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VI=
P B this afternoon at 3:30.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed=
, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms do=
wn from Butterworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><br></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2=
017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtes=
cu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting =
for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><div data-smar=
tmail=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div class=3D"m_-5=
242727143496985606m_2750090645348104599HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-52427271434=
96985606m_2750090645348104599h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_-52427271434969=
85606m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>We are confirmed t=
o have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>No one h=
as that room currently at that time. I&#39;m trying to find an AD to schedu=
le it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask them to reserve=
 it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing else, we can ask the people in th=
at room right now if we can have it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br>=
<div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_-5242727143496985606m_2750090645348104599m_-=
7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 P=
M, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-5242727143496985606m_27500906453481=
04599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *p=
otentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=
=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45=
 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterwort=
h on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in=
 the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at =
Google <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__ma=
ps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-25230=
3-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8P=
Zh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&=
amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM=
1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Singapore (</a><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanja=
ng-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D=
RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyX=
PpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&am=
p;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blan=
k">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><=
span class=3D"m_-5242727143496985606m_2750090645348104599m_-739439698134091=
8457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88888=
8"><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-5242727143496985606m_2750090=
645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-10763531401010463=
3m_6801745544697574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div><table ce=
llspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,1=
36);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family=
:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">=
<tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"pa=
dding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-=
align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" heig=
ht=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;bo=
rder-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;bor=
der-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-b=
ottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><bloc=
kquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;borde=
r-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;bor=
der-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color=
:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:botto=
m"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(=
204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133=
,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:s=
mall;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font=
 face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0p=
x"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-fa=
mily:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=
=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b>=
<br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px=
;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></tabl=
e></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:33:42 +0000
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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>,  Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Id-event] [Update] Plan for the Week
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Will do. The conversation has been continuing, and will summarize when
concluded.

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:20 AM Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Could you please send a summary report to the list from the side meetings
> for those of us that cannot attend?
>
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then distribution and =
control
>> plane time permitting.
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Agenda?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth where
>>>> we were meeting earlier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
>>>> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get it=
.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an A=
D
>>>>>> to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please ask=
 them
>>>>>> to reserve it for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we
>>>>>> can have it later on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation
>>>>>>> will follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative
>>>>>>>> SET Proposal
>>>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.googl=
e.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entr=
y-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSb=
IrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII=
&e=3D>70
>>>>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.googl=
e.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entr=
y-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65ea=
pI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSb=
IrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII=
&e=3D>-71,
>>>>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIr=
MUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGY=
F2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_=
AYBdo8E&e=3D>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com=
_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU=
_cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_=
cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWman=
qWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_c=
qsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanq=
WNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cq=
srU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65=
eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4K=
SbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo=
8E&e=3D
>>>
>>> --
>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>> about projects I am working on!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Id-event mailing list
>> Id-event@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--f403045cd36421415e055e114a26
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><div dir=3D"auto">Will do. The conversation has been continuing, and w=
ill summarize when concluded.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On T=
hu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:20 AM Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathle=
en.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Could you please send a summa=
ry report to the list from the side meetings for those of us that cannot at=
tend?<div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Conti=
nue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then distribution and control =
plane time permitting.</div><div><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169h5"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hun=
t (IDM) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.=
hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><div>Agenda?<br><br>Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><b=
r>On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B thi=
s afternoon at 3:30.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 1=
5, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from=
 Butterworth where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><br></div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at =
1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtescu@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting for tak=
e out food, will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><div data-smartmail=
=3D"gmail_signature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div class=3D"m_-426179=
7391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_275009064534810459=
9HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324=
498101504111m_2750090645348104599h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_-42617973917=
07560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7=
394396981340918457quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div>We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 =
now.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed,=
 Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>No one has that room currently at that=
 time. I&#39;m trying to find an AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else c=
omes across an AD, please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div=
>If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we can ha=
ve it later on.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m=
_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645=
348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15, 201=
7 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-3=
37575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340=
918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">We *potentially* have the =
room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will follow.=C2=A0</div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><b>Future Mee=
tings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle&#39;s Al=
ternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius&#=
39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google <a href=3D"https=
://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSi=
ngapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26sou=
rce-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&=
amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KS=
bIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7=
eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Singapore (</a><span style=3D"font-size:1=
3px"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps=
.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-=
26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh=
8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&am=
p;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1I=
XF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">70 Pasir Panjang Roa=
d, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></div><span class=3D"m_-426179=
7391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_275009064534810459=
9m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-426179739=
1707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_=
-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633m_68017455446=
97574198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div><table cellspacing=3D"0=
" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:=
13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sa=
ns-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"m=
argin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;=
border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center">=
<img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td=
><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style=
:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px =
1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-s=
tyle:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-f=
amily:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-fa=
mily:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"ari=
al" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></=
b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padd=
ing:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000"=
 face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></fo=
nt><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=
=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">=
Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div=
>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA=
&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL=
2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922=
754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_561=
5710805901951258HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><font=
 color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-42617973917075601=
69m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396=
981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633gmail_signature" data=
-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.co=
m_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=
=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ=
93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about project=
s I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></font></span></div><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></blockquote></div><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-33757594892275459=
1m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_56157108=
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iv><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/=
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YR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4K=
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mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div><=
/div></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504=
111m_2750090645348104599gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"=
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</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-426179739170756=
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</div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Id-eve=
nt mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=
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=3D"m_-4261797391707560169HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169h5"><=
div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591g=
mail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div=
>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDT=
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v></div></div></div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"m_-4261797391707560169gmail_signatur=
e" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><br><div>Best regards,</div><div=
>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtwar=
e.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 22:59:32 -0500
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To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>,  Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>, Marius Scurtescu <marius.scurtescu@gmail.com>,  Mike Jones <mbj@microsoft.com>, "Phil Hunt (IDM)" <phil.hunt@oracle.com>, SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
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--f403045cd374359df4055e11a852
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Thank you!

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

> Will do. The conversation has been continuing, and will summarize when
> concluded.
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:20 AM Kathleen Moriarty <
> kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Could you please send a summary report to the list from the side meeting=
s
>> for those of us that cannot attend?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s draft, and then distribution and=
 control
>>> plane time permitting.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Agenda?
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We have VIP B this afternoon at 3:30.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:21 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterworth wher=
e
>>>>> we were meeting earlier.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Marius Scurtescu <
>>>>> marius.scurtescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Awesome. Waiting for take out food, will go there as soon as I get i=
t.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM, "Dick Hardt" <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one has that room currently at that time. I'm trying to find an
>>>>>>> AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD, please=
 ask
>>>>>>> them to reserve it for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If nothing else, we can ask the people in that room right now if we
>>>>>>> can have it later on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation
>>>>>>>> will follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11:45 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Future Meetings*
>>>>>>>>> Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterworth on Annabelle's Alternative
>>>>>>>>> SET Proposal
>>>>>>>>> Thursday - 15:30-18:00 in the Atrium on Marius' Control Plane
>>>>>>>>> Friday - 10:00-18:00 at Google Singapore (
>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.goog=
le.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26ent=
ry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KS=
bIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlI=
I&e=3D>70
>>>>>>>>> Pasir Panjang Road, #03
>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.goog=
le.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26ent=
ry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65e=
apI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KS=
bIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlI=
I&e=3D>-71,
>>>>>>>>> 117371) on Work Session
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>>>>>>>>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>>>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.o=
rg_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qI=
rMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XG=
YF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l=
_AYBdo8E&e=3D>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.co=
m_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTW=
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U_cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com=
_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWm=
anqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU=
_cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_=
&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWma=
nqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_=
cqsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&=
d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWman=
qWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_c=
qsrU&s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&e=3D>
>>>> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Id-event mailing list
>>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.
>>>> ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D
>>>> RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=3D
>>>> na5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3D
>>>> 109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&s=3D
>>>> MHReHuR8iihnIL2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&e=3D
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
>>> about projects I am working on!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Id-event mailing list
>>> Id-event@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>
> --
> Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn
> about projects I am working on!
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--f403045cd374359df4055e11a852
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you!</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Dick Hardt <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dick.har=
dt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Will do. The conversation has been continuing, and will su=
mmarize when concluded.</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:20 AM Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.mor=
iarty.ietf@gmail.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div>Could you please send a summary report to the list from the side=
 meetings for those of us that cannot attend?<div><br></div><div>Thank you,=
</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:=
17 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Continue reviewing Annabelle=E2=80=99s=
 draft, and then distribution and control plane time permitting.</div><div>=
<div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-4261797391707560169h5"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:16 AM Phil Hunt (IDM) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><div>Agenda?<br><br>Phil</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On Nov 16=
, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">We have VIP B this afternoon=
 at 3:30.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at =
1:21 PM Dick Hardt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div>FYI: Clark (the room we have) is two rooms down from Butterwort=
h where we were meeting earlier.<br><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Ma=
rius Scurtescu <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marius.scurtescu@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">marius.scurtescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Awesome. Waiting for take out food,=
 will go there as soon as I get it.<br><br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature">Sent from my phone.</div></div><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894=
m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_275009064=
5348104599HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-426179739170756016=
9m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599h5"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 15, 2017 1:10 PM,=
 &quot;Dick Hardt&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-4261797391707560169m_-3375759489=
22754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div>We are confirmed to have Clark from 1:20 - 3:20 now.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:0=
1 PM, Dick Hardt <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dick.hardt@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div>No one has that room currently at that time. I&#39;m try=
ing to find an AD to schedule it for us. If anyone else comes across an AD,=
 please ask them to reserve it for us.<div><br></div><div>If nothing else, =
we can ask the people in that room right now if we can have it later on.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751=
894m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_275009=
0645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5">On Wed, Nov 15,=
 2017 at 12:35 PM, Luke Camery <span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894=
m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_275009064=
5348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_5615710805901951258h5"><div dir=3D"auto">=
We *potentially* have the room Clark from 1:20-3:20. Confirmation will foll=
ow.=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Tue, Nov 14, 2017, 11=
:45 AM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div><div><b>Future Meetings</b></div>Wednesday - 10:30-12:00 in Butterw=
orth on Annabelle&#39;s Alternative SET Proposal<div>Thursday - 15:30-18:00=
 in the Atrium on Marius&#39; Control Plane</div><div>Friday - 10:00-18:00 =
at Google <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_=
_maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPanjang-2BRoad-2C-2B-25=
2303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZY=
R8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZ=
NA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e=
3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">Singapore (</a>=
<span style=3D"font-size:13px"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com=
/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__maps.google.com_-3Fq-3DSingapore-2B-2870-2BPasir-2BPa=
njang-2BRoad-2C-2B-252303-26entry-3Dgmail-26source-3Dg&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=
=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4Dpc=
tyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU=
&amp;s=3D1R9v5WdBTJ3e3EM1IXF3wIwZW-qKmrZuloytk7eZlII&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_b=
lank">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03</a>-71, 117371) on Work Session</span></di=
v><span class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-4261797391707560169m_-33757594892=
2754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_56=
15710805901951258m_-107635314010104633HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>=
<div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-42617973917075=
60169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394=
396981340918457m_5615710805901951258m_-107635314010104633m_6801745544697574=
198m_-2652051307162839953gmail_signature"><div><table cellspacing=3D"0" cel=
lpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;=
line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-se=
rif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin=
:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;borde=
r:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img =
src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td =
style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:soli=
d;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255=
,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px=
 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:so=
lid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);b=
order-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:a=
rial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:ar=
ial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" col=
or=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></fon=
t><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =
=E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px=
;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=
=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b=
 style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</=
b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Feder=
ated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8=
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&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DMHReHuR8iihnIL=
2tUrDyudmDM536Zzw3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-426179739170=
7560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-73=
94396981340918457m_5615710805901951258HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br clear=3D"all"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131=
324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396981340918457m_561571080590195=
1258m_-107635314010104633gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature=
"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.p=
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1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpu=
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</font></font></span></div><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></blockquote></div><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><di=
v><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-42617973917075601=
69m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599m_-7394396=
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ignature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"https://urld=
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;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&amp;r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4D=
pctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZhzY4yeRIU_cqs=
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_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I am working on!</d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div>
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
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<div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-4261797391707560169m_-33757594892275=
4591m_3131324498101504111m_2750090645348104599gmail_signature" data-smartma=
il=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D=
"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__hardtware.com_&amp;d=
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zBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&amp;m=3D109OW8XGYF2R4KSbIrNJ93Ol9JbZ=
hzY4yeRIU_cqsrU&amp;s=3DHj849A1b4JsvXozjsmPynUDUob6l0WzlmqvSRkby_zQ&amp;e=
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 working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-728453109219175=
1894m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591m_3131324498101504111gmail_s=
ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subsc=
ribe to the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A=
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 about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>I=
d-event mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span><a href=3D"https://ur=
ldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_=
id-2Devent&amp;d=3DDwICAg&amp;c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_J=
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L2tUrDyudmDM536Zz<wbr>w3x3l_AYBdo8E&amp;e=3D</a></span><br></div></blockquo=
te></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"m_-728453109219=
1751894m_-4261797391707560169HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_=
-4261797391707560169h5"><div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751=
894m_-4261797391707560169m_-337575948922754591gmail_signature" data-smartma=
il=3D"gmail_signature"><div><div><div><div><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D=
"http://hardtware.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn =
about projects I am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/id-event</a=
><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894m_-42617973917=
07560169gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><br><div>B=
est regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-7284531092191751894gmail_s=
ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtware=
.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I =
am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>
</div>

--f403045cd374359df4055e11a852--


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From: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:37:04 +0000
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TL;DR - Meet in the building lobby at 9:40 to be escorted upstairs for a
10:00 start

*Time*
09:40-15:30

*Location*
Google Singapore
70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371

*Agenda*
1. Review and discuss the two Management API drafts:
  - Spec 1
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api=
-00>
  - Spec 2 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00>
2. Address remaining open questions

--=20

*  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
*  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
*  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity

--089e0828e6bc89a730055e165d5d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>TL;DR - Meet in the building lobby at 9:40 to be esco=
rted upstairs for a 10:00 start</div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>Time</b>=
</div><div>09:40-15:30</div><div><b><br></b></div><b>Location</b><div>Googl=
e Singapore</div><div><span style=3D"font-size:13px">70 Pasir Panjang Road,=
 #03-71, 117371</span><br></div><div><b><br></b><div><b>Agenda</b></div><di=
v>1. Review and discuss the two Management API drafts:</div><div>=C2=A0 -=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event=
-stream-mgmt-api-00">Spec 1</a></div><div>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00">- Spec 2</a></div><div>2. =
Address remaining open questions<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellp=
adding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-=
size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,sa=
ns,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=
=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px=
 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:cen=
ter"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"=
></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-=
style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1=
px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-botto=
m-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,=
255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><block=
quote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);fon=
t-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font=
-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"=
arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br=
></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:aria=
l">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;p=
adding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff00=
00" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b><=
/font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =
=C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0p=
x">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></=
div>
</div></div></div>

--089e0828e6bc89a730055e165d5d--


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From: Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 00:44:38 +0000
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Since my cab driver was confused, I should I'd sent helpful directional
tips. See here <https://goo.gl/maps/ByGMRWncXf62> for the exact coordinates
that you're going to.

Note that you'll see Mapletree Business Center from the highway. Enter the
complex and follow the internal roads for 60-80. There will be three stops
at the second tower with the center stop being 70 (and your destination).
The lobby is exclusively for Google with lots of Google branding so you'll
recognize it. Ping me when you arrive.


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:37 PM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:

> TL;DR - Meet in the building lobby at 9:40 to be escorted upstairs for a
> 10:00 start
>
> *Time*
> 09:40-15:30
>
> *Location*
> Google Singapore
> 70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371
>
> *Agenda*
> 1. Review and discuss the two Management API drafts:
>   - Spec 1
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-a=
pi-00>
>   - Spec 2
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00>
> 2. Address remaining open questions
>
> --
>
> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>
> --

*  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
*  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
*  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity

--001a113cec384938d4055e230b10
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Since my cab driver was confused, I should I&#39;d sent he=
lpful directional tips. See <a href=3D"https://goo.gl/maps/ByGMRWncXf62">he=
re</a> for the exact coordinates that you&#39;re going to.<div><br></div><d=
iv>Note that you&#39;ll see Mapletree Business Center from the highway. Ent=
er the complex and follow the internal roads for 60-80. There will be three=
 stops at the second tower with the center stop being 70 (and your destinat=
ion). The lobby is exclusively for Google with lots of Google branding so y=
ou&#39;ll recognize it. Ping me when you arrive.</div></div><br><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:37 PM Luke C=
amery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>TL;DR =
- Meet in the building lobby at 9:40 to be escorted upstairs for a 10:00 st=
art</div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>Time</b></div><div>09:40-15:30</div>=
<div><b><br></b></div><b>Location</b><div>Google Singapore</div><div><span =
style=3D"font-size:13px">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371</span><br></=
div><div><b><br></b><div><b>Agenda</b></div><div>1. Review and discuss the =
two Management API drafts:</div><div>=C2=A0 -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api-00" target=3D=
"_blank">Spec 1</a></div><div>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00" target=3D"_blank">- Spec 2</a></div><d=
iv>2. Address remaining open questions<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <=
br><div class=3D"m_6527516439125055822gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><ta=
ble cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:=
0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout=
:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;paddin=
g:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48p=
x"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-=
align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif"=
 width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:=
1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bott=
om-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255=
,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-a=
lign:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"pad=
ding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-rig=
ht-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);=
border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);ve=
rtical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:smal=
l;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b st=
yle=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Came=
ry</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;pad=
ding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rg=
b(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#66=
6666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager=
</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0=
px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-siz=
e:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margi=
n:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></=
tr></tbody></table></div></div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" dir=3D"ltr" border=3D"1" style=
=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;pad=
ding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-l=
ayout:fixed;font-family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;p=
adding:0px;border:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;heigh=
t:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vert=
ical-align:middle;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss=
.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-w=
idth:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border=
-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;t=
ext-align:center"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=
=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;bor=
der-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,=
255);vertical-align:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-si=
ze:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</=
b><b style=3D"font-size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Lu=
ke Camery</font></b><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:=
0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;c=
olor:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=
=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product =
Manager</font><font color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;pa=
dding:0px;border:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);f=
ont-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=
=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquot=
e></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>

--001a113cec384938d4055e230b10--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 00:55:30 +0000
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--089e0824731c336b2a055e233252
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Thanks Luke

Uber knows the destination as Google, so hoping that is seemless.

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:44 AM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:

> Since my cab driver was confused, I should I'd sent helpful directional
> tips. See here <https://goo.gl/maps/ByGMRWncXf62> for the exact
> coordinates that you're going to.
>
> Note that you'll see Mapletree Business Center from the highway. Enter th=
e
> complex and follow the internal roads for 60-80. There will be three stop=
s
> at the second tower with the center stop being 70 (and your destination).
> The lobby is exclusively for Google with lots of Google branding so you'l=
l
> recognize it. Ping me when you arrive.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:37 PM Luke Camery <lcamery@google.com> wrote:
>
>> TL;DR - Meet in the building lobby at 9:40 to be escorted upstairs for a
>> 10:00 start
>>
>> *Time*
>> 09:40-15:30
>>
>> *Location*
>> Google Singapore
>> 70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371
>>
>> *Agenda*
>> 1. Review and discuss the two Management API drafts:
>>   - Spec 1
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-scurtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-=
api-00>
>>   - Spec 2
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-stream-mgmt-00>
>> 2. Address remaining open questions
>>
>> --
>>
>> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
>> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>>
>> --
>
> *  =E2=80=A2  **Luke Camery*
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Associate Product Manager
> *  =E2=80=A2  *Federated Identity
>
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--089e0824731c336b2a055e233252
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks Luke</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Uber knows the destination as Google, so hoping that is seemless=
.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:44 AM =
Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcamery@google.com">lcamery@google.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Since my cab driv=
er was confused, I should I&#39;d sent helpful directional tips. See <a hre=
f=3D"https://goo.gl/maps/ByGMRWncXf62" target=3D"_blank">here</a> for the e=
xact coordinates that you&#39;re going to.<div><br></div><div>Note that you=
&#39;ll see Mapletree Business Center from the highway. Enter the complex a=
nd follow the internal roads for 60-80. There will be three stops at the se=
cond tower with the center stop being 70 (and your destination). The lobby =
is exclusively for Google with lots of Google branding so you&#39;ll recogn=
ize it. Ping me when you arrive.</div></div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:37 PM Luke Camery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
lcamery@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lcamery@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>TL;DR - Meet in the building=
 lobby at 9:40 to be escorted upstairs for a 10:00 start</div><div><b><br><=
/b></div><div><b>Time</b></div><div>09:40-15:30</div><div><b><br></b></div>=
<b>Location</b><div>Google Singapore</div><div><span style=3D"font-size:13p=
x">70 Pasir Panjang Road, #03-71, 117371</span><br></div><div><b><br></b><d=
iv><b>Agenda</b></div><div>1. Review and discuss the two Management API dra=
fts:</div><div>=C2=A0 -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-s=
curtescu-secevent-event-stream-mgmt-api-00" target=3D"_blank">Spec 1</a></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hunt-secevent-s=
tream-mgmt-00" target=3D"_blank">- Spec 2</a></div><div>2. Address remainin=
g open questions<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-92=
6162847894487318m_6527516439125055822gmail_signature"><div><table cellspaci=
ng=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136);fon=
t-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(=
204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-family:arial,=
sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><tr sty=
le=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=3D"padding:2=
px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:c=
enter"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96" height=3D"4=
2"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-to=
p-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"><blockquote =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width=
:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bot=
tom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:bottom"><blo=
ckquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(61,133,198);f=
ont-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-size:small;fo=
nt-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b><font face=
=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b=
><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);font-family:=
arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0=
px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><font color=3D"#=
ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px"><b><br><=
/b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0 =E2=80=
=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;borde=
r:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></di=
v></div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>-- <br></div><div class=3D"m_-926=
162847894487318gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div><ta=
ble cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(136=
,136,136);font-size:13px;line-height:normal;margin:0px;padding:0px;border:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);border-collapse:collapse;table-layout:fixed;font-=
family:arial,sans,sans-serif"><tbody style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border=
:0px"><tr style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;height:48px"><td style=
=3D"padding:2px 3px;border:1px solid rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle=
;text-align:center"><img src=3D"http://i.imgur.com/Ya4Rhss.gif" width=3D"96=
" height=3D"42"></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px;border-width:1px 1px 1px =
0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:sol=
id;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right-color:rgb(255,255,255);bo=
rder-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align:middle;text-align:center"=
><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote></td><td style=3D"padding:2px 3px=
;border-width:1px 1px 1px 0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:sol=
id;border-bottom-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-right=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);border-bottom-color:rgb(255,255,255);vertical-align=
:bottom"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(=
61,133,198);font-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><b style=3D"font-=
size:small;font-family:arial"><font color=3D"#666666">Luke Camery</font></b=
><font face=3D"arial" color=3D"#3d85c6" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;bor=
der:0px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"font-size:small;color:rgb(255,0,0);f=
ont-family:arial">=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=
=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px">Associate Product Manager</font><fon=
t color=3D"#ff0000" face=3D"arial" style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0=
px"><b><br></b></font><b style=3D"color:rgb(255,204,51);font-size:12.8px">=
=C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 =C2=A0</b><font color=3D"#666666" style=3D"margin:0px;padd=
ing:0px;border:0px">Federated Identity</font></blockquote></td></tr></tbody=
></table></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtwar=
e.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>

--089e0824731c336b2a055e233252--


From nobody Sat Nov 18 23:06:38 2017
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 15:06:13 +0800
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Subject: [Id-event] HEADS UP - upcoming consensus discussions
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Hey WG

For those that were not in Singapore, there was lots of side meetings, and
we identified a number of topics that we are going to ask for consensus on.

Watch this list for upcoming emails describing the topics and the choices
(and of course the opportunity to discuss those)

/Dick

--089e0824731c2dcd39055e509c1b
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hey WG
<div><br></div><div>For those that were not in Singapore, there was lots of=
 side meetings, and we identified a number of topics that we are going to a=
sk for consensus on.</div><div><br></div><div>Watch this list for upcoming =
emails describing the topics and the choices (and of course the opportunity=
 to discuss those)</div><div><br></div><div>/Dick</div></div>

--089e0824731c2dcd39055e509c1b--


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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:30:39 -0800
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To: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Cc: "Morteza Ansari (moransar)" <moransar@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Id-event] Control Plane Author's meeting
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As we currently do not have a WG document for the control plane, the
authors and interested parties are getting together to discuss the control
plane personal draft. Anyone interested and wanting to contribute is
welcome to join. Meeting is Dec 20th hosted by Cisco campus in San Jose CA.
Please contact Morteza if you are planning to join. Minutes from the
meeting will be posted to the list.

NOTE: this is not an official working group meeting, but wanted to provide
transparency on related discussions to this list.

-- Dick

--94eb2c1268147da560055eff4bf5
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<div dir=3D"ltr">As we currently do not have a WG document for the control =
plane, the authors and interested parties are getting together to discuss t=
he control plane personal draft. Anyone interested and wanting to contribut=
e is welcome to join. Meeting is Dec 20th hosted by Cisco campus in San Jos=
e CA. Please contact Morteza if you are planning to join. Minutes from the =
meeting will be posted to the list.<div><br><div>
</div></div><div>NOTE: this is not an official working group meeting, but w=
anted to provide transparency on related discussions to this list.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>-- Dick</div></div>

--94eb2c1268147da560055eff4bf5--


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From: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: [Id-event] Secevents IETF 100 discussion (minutes)
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Over the week at IETF100 there was initially the official wg meeting plus a n=
umber of daily side meetings. =20

I have not seen the minutes yet, so here are some of my thoughts on the new d=
raft from Annabelle.=20

The change in direction is substantial (a totally new format and design prin=
ciple) and I recommend strongly that people read the new draft from Annabell=
e.=20

I am aware of some people that could not attend that would like to catch up w=
ith minutes before commenting.

A key design difference is the new individual draft acts more as a command m=
essage. A SET event is singular and expresses specific intent by the issuer t=
hat may be more easily understood. In contrast, the WG draft describes a set=
 of event statements (eg one or more state changes) by the issuer where the r=
eceiver decides meaning and action if any within its own context.=20

I will provide further commentary later. For now I am very concerned with th=
e change in design that suggests SETs be more like structured commands by tr=
ansmitters to receiving parties.=20

Best regards,

Phil=


From nobody Thu Nov 30 20:41:37 2017
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From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 04:41:20 +0000
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--089e0826a40cab320b055f3ffb41
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I will be posting a summary of the side meetings real-soon-now.

Per an earlier post, I=E2=80=99ll be posting some questions looking to get
consensus on a number of topics.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:32 PM Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com> wrote:

> Over the week at IETF100 there was initially the official wg meeting plus
> a number of daily side meetings.
>
> I have not seen the minutes yet, so here are some of my thoughts on the
> new draft from Annabelle.
>
> The change in direction is substantial (a totally new format and design
> principle) and I recommend strongly that people read the new draft from
> Annabelle.
>
> I am aware of some people that could not attend that would like to catch
> up with minutes before commenting.
>
> A key design difference is the new individual draft acts more as a comman=
d
> message. A SET event is singular and expresses specific intent by the
> issuer that may be more easily understood. In contrast, the WG draft
> describes a set of event statements (eg one or more state changes) by the
> issuer where the receiver decides meaning and action if any within its ow=
n
> context.
>
> I will provide further commentary later. For now I am very concerned with
> the change in design that suggests SETs be more like structured commands =
by
> transmitters to receiving parties.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Phil
> _______________________________________________
> Id-event mailing list
> Id-event@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event
>
--=20
Subscribe to the HARDTWARE <http://hardtware.com/> mail list to learn about
projects I am working on!

--089e0826a40cab320b055f3ffb41
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">I will be posting a summary of the side meetings rea=
l-soon-now.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Per an earli=
er post, I=E2=80=99ll be posting some questions looking to get consensus on=
 a number of topics.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Thu, Nov 3=
0, 2017 at 6:32 PM Phil Hunt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com">ph=
il.hunt@oracle.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">O=
ver the week at IETF100 there was initially the official wg meeting plus a =
number of daily side meetings.<br>
<br>
I have not seen the minutes yet, so here are some of my thoughts on the new=
 draft from Annabelle.<br>
<br>
The change in direction is substantial (a totally new format and design pri=
nciple) and I recommend strongly that people read the new draft from Annabe=
lle.<br>
<br>
I am aware of some people that could not attend that would like to catch up=
 with minutes before commenting.<br>
<br>
A key design difference is the new individual draft acts more as a command =
message. A SET event is singular and expresses specific intent by the issue=
r that may be more easily understood. In contrast, the WG draft describes a=
 set of event statements (eg one or more state changes) by the issuer where=
 the receiver decides meaning and action if any within its own context.<br>
<br>
I will provide further commentary later. For now I am very concerned with t=
he change in design that suggests SETs be more like structured commands by =
transmitters to receiving parties.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Phil<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Id-event mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Id-event@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Id-event@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr">-- <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Subscribe to the <a href=3D"http://hardtwar=
e.com/" target=3D"_blank">HARDTWARE</a> mail list to learn about projects I=
 am working on!</div></div></div></div></div></div>

--089e0826a40cab320b055f3ffb41--

