From nobody Tue Jul 3 09:02:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietf.org Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C701A13102A; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:00:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: id-event@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153063361480.4893.8211955228995790519.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:00:14 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] secevent - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:00:22 -0000 Dear Yaron Sheffer, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. secevent Session 1 (2:00 requested) Friday, 20 July 2018, Morning Session I 0930-1130 Room Name: Duluth size: 150 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/secevent.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Security Events Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Yaron Sheffer Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: saag httpbis dispatch oauth tokbind tls acme Second Priority: ipsecme sacm ace People who must be present: Yaron Sheffer Dick Hardt Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please avoid CFRG. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Jul 7 17:48:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C37130F02 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0jIOS51rdnNV for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22b.google.com (mail-pf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC7BD130F01 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v9-v6so11159865pff.9 for ; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ONSmh31vs7B7gVnG2veMvq+c1lVbLo8VNOQ1pKd1rGk=; b=ZvXR+thhpHwhyMlG1cbOyVgyzFt9OS7vlCWo3TcUHvQgL7YF6S9bB3Yc7YwOScZvj4 BCKPmtdCBDdgK6BwyxHQm3u0DwugJsMIQIEOtBVWusgGT7eGT4RDm5JlgoOv3rpfdo8+ enuYMTRpmSIEL+qoBfewrcDSb1hM/d1dlEc07/n3sOQzIqm/EZT8RtJUetWyFSmOH0BZ cLnC0LkmVlY7gLqz4xcKUiTWUUi2yPGZCR9zjbHNIQSTPr23rp+6EZ3YDMilTSvSTUBO xOfyuhWXGqRfIHq7/8Ba80xPVorPEP10T2pHuIa545UJCerajV6A1H6GYpehXo75Lhjt n8sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ONSmh31vs7B7gVnG2veMvq+c1lVbLo8VNOQ1pKd1rGk=; b=CNEvGbzFiBV1nbWfLMtAogyYxfvcxRboVRAshQciB5ZBedTaej0bHs4Gj2+fkl9glC BR1iWwzqA1azFlUURveis3Yp4CXSniTOKfDslUxLTKxhUrb/u7ibscZnXZdsCwHjalJW 6NpsKE7NjpU8zyld8qIDmo/fXbZwgLIAMroD0XpA0gQN9FjVyRbX38oGrsHwWWnlLf1T B/b2Md/SeTJgjlimges/5yDRVn5knr7FwHPA6bcu0JPXQzJnGcD4OJuHM7P07wlfBvo/ gvHFHpUMCPL5mx/DbvUd4jl4z7EmYhzJ93w1Zjp61GjtrQh44pqoDYM955chr+7mMtyC fAJw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3DbGVBu9YHvM9lThXGzA5ARNYVrpT6mv3kn9Yi49mPrRtyQrke qwVXr5nQYAKjeIz9QgbopAlX9JlSvwVmvWNNwGA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdARYzM77UB5tvyUPGtxaTGUApfvV6N36ZdVloahGr7+qXunyciXqDAUoPc2Zh4lZQV4A5XFF3wpUcCe1GeOT4= X-Received: by 2002:a63:c312:: with SMTP id c18-v6mr7952975pgd.449.1531010910039; Sat, 07 Jul 2018 17:48:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:8901:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:48:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2A19164F-828B-4275-A65F-37E32AB2D392@amazon.com> References: <2A19164F-828B-4275-A65F-37E32AB2D392@amazon.com> From: Dick Hardt Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 17:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" Cc: Marius Scurtescu , ID Events Mailing List , Yaron Sheffer , Phillip Hunt , Mike Jones , Morteza Ansari , Anthony Nadalin Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070b5300570724118" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 00:48:33 -0000 --00000000000070b5300570724118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Phil, Mike, Tony, Morteza: you are all also authors of the Poll and Push documents. Are any of you be willing to present on either of those documents? On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle < richanna@amazon.com> wrote: > I can present Push, and Poll if need be, though it=E2=80=99d be nice to n= ot have > to do three slide decks. =E2=98=BA > > > > -- > > Annabelle Richard Backman > > Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services > > > > > > *From: *Marius Scurtescu > *Date: *Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 4:58 PM > *To: *Dick Hardt > *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List , Yaron Sheffer < > yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" , > Phillip Hunt , Mike Jones < > michael.jones@microsoft.com>, Morteza Ansari , > Anthony Nadalin > *Subject: *Re: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 > > > > I will not be able to attend in person, but I did register as a remote > participant. Happy to present "Push SET Distribution" remotely, unless > another author wants to present in person. Let me know. > > > Marius > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:12 PM Dick Hardt wrote: > > 10 minutes Agenda Bashing - chairs > > 10 minutes Update on Security Event Tokens - chairs > > 30 minutes Push SET Distribution - ? > > 30 minutes Poll SET Distribution - ? > > 30 minutes SET Subjects - Annabelle > > 10 minutes Any other business - chairs > > > > Push and Poll authors: I'm assuming someone will present and that the tim= e > is adequate. Please let us know who will present for each one. > > > > Dick and Yaron > > > > > > --00000000000070b5300570724118 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Phil, Mike, Tony, Morteza: you are all also authors of the= Poll and Push documents.=C2=A0

Are any of you be willin= g to present on either of those documents?

On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Richa= rd Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com> wrote:

I can present Push, and Poll if need be, though it= =E2=80=99d be nice to not have to do three slide decks. =E2=98=BA<= u>

=C2=A0

--=C2=A0

Annabelle Richard Backman

Amazon =E2=80=93 Identity Services=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : Marius Scurtescu = <mscurtescu@g= oogle.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 4:58 PM
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Cc: ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>= ;, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" <richanna@amazon.com>, Phillip Hunt <<= a href=3D"mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com" target=3D"_blank">phil.hunt@oracle.c= om>, Mike Jones <michael.jones@microsoft.com>, Morteza Ansari <moransar@cisco.com>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102

=C2=A0

I will not be able to attend in person, but I did re= gister as a remote participant. Happy to present=C2=A0"Push SET Distri= bution" remotely, unless another author wants to present in person. Le= t me know.


Marius

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--00000000000070b5300570724118-- From nobody Sun Jul 8 10:51:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5E41292AD for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I_cMORBB2egk for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam06on0103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.53.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 935151310C1 for ; 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=?utf-8?q?RFC_8417_on_Security_Event_Token_=28SET=29?= X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 05:15:04 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8417 Title: Security Event Token (SET) Author: P. Hunt, Ed., M. Jones, W. Denniss, M. Ansari Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: July 2018 Mailbox: phil.hunt@yahoo.com, mbj@microsoft.com, rfc8417@wdenniss.com, morteza.ansari@cisco.com Pages: 28 Characters: 64672 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-secevent-token-13.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8417 This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject. These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specification is intended to enable representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. 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[82.81.201.208]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p3-v6sm28951446wrg.47.2018.07.09.22.58.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jul 2018 22:58:18 -0700 (PDT) References: <20180710051453.7905CB81560@rfc-editor.org> To: SecEvent From: Yaron Sheffer X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20180710051453.7905CB81560@rfc-editor.org> Message-ID: <885cb985-342a-571b-7674-aa8c51bc468b@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:58:16 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180710051453.7905CB81560@rfc-editor.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 05:58:24 -0000 This is our working group's first RFC, and the foundation of the solution we are working on. Congratulations to us all, and a big thank you to the authors! Yaron -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org CC: drafts-update-ref@iana.org, id-event@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8417 Title: Security Event Token (SET) Author: P. Hunt, Ed., M. Jones, W. Denniss, M. Ansari Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: July 2018 Mailbox: phil.hunt@yahoo.com, mbj@microsoft.com, rfc8417@wdenniss.com, morteza.ansari@cisco.com Pages: 28 Characters: 64672 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-secevent-token-13.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8417 This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject. These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specification is intended to enable representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC _______________________________________________ Id-event mailing list Id-event@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event From nobody Tue Jul 10 03:26:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0A45130DF1 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b1siAyKEbkT8 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E62331292F1 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id r16-v6so14030209wrt.11 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jivuIpUiWpqn63P7thJuoFt3e6u9Pxvefl0unY/8rM8=; b=SQOxBPu6NJfd3ngZX572UfDn9Uw5qq82XdAam24ZyOE8ekgTkgNtNygXg0RPjt8Gjj NMMZUU15w4Ji9DqY3lrtvmkd2DhyLFKzL+z/RlMXy6sonDkaFn9CW0n0Rtlob8YA3U1b kyrRL6IknSMaJ4pLQk1HEsFFArdq8sZyP5EmY8Gs8oc8Y2P/zW+xNIR0Gpmtlb8ZziEm JnxzIFKfKnP5Mak4QBK1gRdZ8v447qdumZe4iONDUXSsDkKLcTyy7/9DHwftSXodDAKj 0/ZiDhytpwTOLTAvH/9UXiewEoRWyV14Mdn88C6HvaEKTvcMXi/NjAXT6nI8BOC9K/sy a4Lw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jivuIpUiWpqn63P7thJuoFt3e6u9Pxvefl0unY/8rM8=; b=orM0NZp3Vy+b9JEpGfyVCIS7+F+bX+Qi9zcNsKi1Rw94zDWz2/sM5CZSQPkGBVd9a0 0QIX4sXy6NV3aN5z1RjR/f4xYTPyw8yOuLriESDiKokS6IVVY8wyJH27N+yDprHCYmHO g6/ucGypbE5a/1Fqot8nnY4abrwjUloRIjlVN+ykE3ymnpS8LfPRn1/WHBqgQY4ySlZp lXc75uscM7xpTN80BJhUblRy4j2rU6OWI8vxANHIx5LUjw9hHRTSInBnDBr6BuNC9d7x C5uDI7swXjflbzXXm8pX7Ow7wkuZ/YiztcH8KrrLLWY10dgKIu6J4V1v4uLUtSYkoH7u Bb2A== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0S7Ms8homaTnTBlCIT5xcPoSyepFp7nm06qY/PJat9oUQDMtHL PNjhexeDlJAXcFzxNiyMVzo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpd9SOJfncQCZ124/lscaVLueqULSiOwYmfNhkDWNrvzzjMGcFT3Akrd4wlsG71jHU5ise4FpA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a3d6:: with SMTP id m22-v6mr18035311wrb.1.1531218377381; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.18.129.55] (bzq-202-11.red.bezeqint.net. [212.179.202.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s124-v6sm21785160wmf.47.2018.07.10.03.26.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 03:26:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Jones , "Richard Backman, Annabelle" , Dick Hardt Cc: Marius Scurtescu , ID Events Mailing List , Phillip Hunt , Morteza Ansari , Anthony Nadalin References: <2A19164F-828B-4275-A65F-37E32AB2D392@amazon.com> <34859E96-8DFC-489E-B823-0FEC3CBF2EB2@amazon.com> From: Yaron Sheffer Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:26:13 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 10:26:22 -0000 Thanks Annabelle and Mike! Will update the agenda. As an optional agenda item, could we have someone present an update on the RISC specification that was just published? Ideally, someone who's not already presenting... Thanks, Yaron On 10/07/18 01:25, Mike Jones wrote: > OK by me > > *From:* Richard Backman, Annabelle > *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 3:24 PM > *To:* Mike Jones ; Dick Hardt > > *Cc:* Marius Scurtescu ; ID Events Mailing List > ; Yaron Sheffer ; Phillip Hunt > ; Morteza Ansari ; Anthony > Nadalin > *Subject:* Re: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 > > Mike, > > I’m happy to present push, if you can do poll? > > -- > > Annabelle Richard Backman > > Amazon – Identity Services > > *From: *Mike Jones > > *Date: *Sunday, July 8, 2018 at 10:51 AM > *To: *Dick Hardt >, > "Richard Backman, Annabelle" > > *Cc: *Marius Scurtescu >, ID Events Mailing List > >, Yaron Sheffer > >, Phillip Hunt > >, Morteza Ansari > >, Anthony Nadalin > > > *Subject: *RE: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 > > I’m willing to present in person on the push and poll specs.  I’ll > review them in the coming week and put together decks for review in advance. > >                                                        -- Mike > > *From:* Dick Hardt > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 7, 2018 5:48 PM > *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle > > *Cc:* Marius Scurtescu >; ID Events Mailing List > >; Yaron Sheffer > >; Phillip Hunt > >; Mike Jones > >; > Morteza Ansari >; Anthony > Nadalin > > *Subject:* Re: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 > > Phil, Mike, Tony, Morteza: you are all also authors of the Poll and Push > documents. > > Are any of you be willing to present on either of those documents? > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Richard Backman, Annabelle > > wrote: > > I can present Push, and Poll if need be, though it’d be nice to not > have to do three slide decks. ☺ > > -- > > Annabelle Richard Backman > > Amazon – Identity Services > > *From: *Marius Scurtescu > > *Date: *Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 4:58 PM > *To: *Dick Hardt > > *Cc: *ID Events Mailing List >, Yaron Sheffer >, "Richard Backman, Annabelle" > >, Phillip Hunt > >, Mike Jones > >, > Morteza Ansari >, > Anthony Nadalin > > *Subject: *Re: proposed security event meeting agenda - IETF 102 > > I will not be able to attend in person, but I did register as a > remote participant. Happy to present "Push SET Distribution" > remotely, unless another author wants to present in person. Let me > know. > > > Marius > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:12 PM Dick Hardt > wrote: > > 10 minutes Agenda Bashing - chairs > > 10 minutes      Update on Security Event Tokens - chairs > > 30 minutes      Push SET Distribution - ? > > 30 minutes      Poll SET Distribution - ? > > 30 minutes      SET Subjects - Annabelle > > 10 minutes      Any other business - chairs > > Push and Poll authors: I'm assuming someone will present and > that the time is adequate. Please let us know who will present > for each one. > > Dick and Yaron > From nobody Tue Jul 10 07:49:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF618130FA2 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asba7xWfiL_f for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9D9A130DBE for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id c21-v6so11636624pfn.8 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gWBYU0ue6jPSGZuv38WCHdoBe8HBUuwyRXVVHwwBofs=; b=bk+e4/0RKjf4e3YGjIrEl2lfnMADnmxC1wCW+sAohzFjG4qMFTaXtvs48+95Rjl6E9 nqTj5BK8quSrYnmm7JrEpeCWxBOQTyoIZhUUdiMyo33e+Ia02nLcBwaTYspDMaD2vbYJ BM6cp1jMlMEg2IJ4hJR/+BGaUsgjozh3PU++7qEEOmrNuzessVOrWjp4cKeIW+VN5Kgy ZthLfRB1KwO2yloxuu7vpNGxV+gERn7mL0uOqD4vh2UkB23D0ZkVxrpCdDbJvhju+XXn IGwkPwjJQlu21VJ4C76WdDqTiMNAR3Pt9i9Pt4NZpHFiuvLQ+i8j0eR7yteBWhv0KpSP Ei+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gWBYU0ue6jPSGZuv38WCHdoBe8HBUuwyRXVVHwwBofs=; b=J/WD8ESUUT2pQa8SLM6jy7wG9SOM+J8icCMyS1asKgJaQRDmg1hGPqQLiGAoBEP+R/ sUNAY3UIciWFg6n5Ainxd8MKvh7pCBGJO9dNgssGGWEaosAvr2SWNYE30KZijJVEUViO tMB2XGEZ0ekWMU1zWo2x7QizJET77ON1aCfUJoub0lXayKFtn06o+pDTBZ2PyxOzQ3qH b8Tx6n9NbtCZv4rZQcMEm1BEVNjHWQTFkJb8hXqq2CHerVJlaijcS7s4Uy0Fi++HM3st nXOjPUA3bL7NGKWl0yXEiwYf/cnpZQwqTbzgZgmb4ANDO6EW9i4Jemt2aZZvzYfAZTiy ED8A== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3Er3EFPOaZp6Bx+VXZi1Ipr2WGybUIhwhErbpLtxOLAPR01vZh /ZMdSIohQav2RTj/x3mhbWDSW5wDeAoqyPyiH/A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfuDLt/wzarTA6LVTxrY4YtbRYtXFDV7dcr1V2v0CvZsa9GY++jpRARl24dgL1BOpM0rdMNqzFTDr7kKBPfGf8= X-Received: by 2002:a63:6243:: with SMTP id w64-v6mr18370744pgb.179.1531234134160; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180710051453.7905CB81560@rfc-editor.org> <885cb985-342a-571b-7674-aa8c51bc468b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <885cb985-342a-571b-7674-aa8c51bc468b@gmail.com> From: Dick Hardt Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:48:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Yaron Sheffer Cc: SecEvent Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a279e80570a63a25" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:48:58 -0000 --000000000000a279e80570a63a25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A big milestone! Well done WG! On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:58 PM Yaron Sheffer wrote: > This is our working group's first RFC, and the foundation of the > solution we are working on. Congratulations to us all, and a big thank > you to the authors! > > Yaron > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org > CC: drafts-update-ref@iana.org, id-event@ietf.org, > rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > > A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. > > RFC 8417 > > Title: Security Event Token (SET) Author: P. > Hunt, Ed., > M. Jones, W. Denniss, > M. Ansari > Status: Standards Track > Stream: IETF > Date: July 2018 > Mailbox: phil.hunt@yahoo.com, > mbj@microsoft.com, rfc8417@wdenniss.com, > morteza.ansari@cisco.com > Pages: 28 > Characters: 64672 > Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None > > I-D Tag: draft-ietf-secevent-token-13.txt > > URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417 > > DOI: 10.17487/RFC8417 > > This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data > structure. A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective > of an issuer about a subject. These statements of fact represent an > event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for > example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on > behalf of a subject. This specification is intended to enable > representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a JSON > Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. > SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. > > This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the > IETF. > > This is now a Proposed Standard. > > STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track > protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and > suggestions > for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official > Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for > the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of > this memo is unlimited. > > This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. > To subscribe or unsubscribe, see > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce > https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist > > For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search > For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk > > Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the > author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless > specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for > unlimited distribution. > > > The RFC Editor Team > Association Management Solutions, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > --000000000000a279e80570a63a25 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A big milestone! Well done WG!
 --000000000000a279e80570a63a25-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 08:14:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFCF130FD4 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L3daiaXX2Fir for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr640135.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.64.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEDDC130DC4 for ; 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boundary="_000_BL0PR00MB0292D144D9D70C204E57659AF55B0BL0PR00MB0292namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c36815fb-ac5f-424d-1c10-08d5e677c874 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jul 2018 15:14:07.9161 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR00MB0372 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Security Event Token (SET) is now RFC 8417 X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:14:21 -0000 --_000_BL0PR00MB0292D144D9D70C204E57659AF55B0BL0PR00MB0292namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Security Event Token (SET) specification is now RFC 8417. The abstract describes the specification as= : This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A= SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a= subject. These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directl= y to or about a security subject, for example, a statement about the issuan= ce or revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specification is i= ntended to enable representing security- and identity-related events. A SET= is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted= . SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. SETs are already in use to represent OpenID Connect Back-Channel Logout tokens and to rep= resent Risk and Incident Sharing and Coordination (RISC) events. Thanks to my co-editors, members of the IETF ID Events m= ailing list, and members of the IETF Security Events working group for maki= ng this standard a reality! -- Mike P.S. This notice was also published at http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1891 a= nd as @selfissued. --_000_BL0PR00MB0292D144D9D70C204E57659AF55B0BL0PR00MB0292namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Security Event Token (SET) specification is now = RFC 8417.  The abstract describes the specification as:=

This specification define= s the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A SET describes statements= of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject. These statement= s of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for example, a statement about th= e issuance or revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specificat= ion is intended to enable representing security- and identity-related event= s. A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. SETs can be distributed v= ia protocols such as HTTP.

 

SETs are already in use to represent OpenID Connect Back-Channel Logout tokens and to represent Risk and Incident Sharing and Coordination (RISC) events.  Thanks = to my co-editors, members of the IETF ID Events mailing list, and members o= f the IETF Security Events working group for making this standard a reality= !

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        -- Mike

 

P.S.  This notice was also published at http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1891 and as @selfissued.

 

--_000_BL0PR00MB0292D144D9D70C204E57659AF55B0BL0PR00MB0292namp_-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 08:27:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75956130FF9 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=oracle.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zz5adQz5N_qA for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com (aserp2130.oracle.com [141.146.126.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E155E131001 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6AFOJ8S153559; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:48 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=l6aN6jewmaQ6lM+JhrzlEiYrgjWGUKVR/Lx11WEykWM=; b=I/oxhAlUP/FaWxyUPBkIz1HL8B+54HrHftF2tv3NJeijekj7xt1W4LEx7Xn/3ek4GKla RwqKSpF7xzTtSJPeffJtRBI4d2XxpIpERKHpZ1nPzANgwdiQaAwf2CA9FH9Eo3C8GnmX H7uM6Po8W3M/asf3qQFIfKhoq2O77AUbCqlFD/RHap7JMS2OLYJy7bg25Z2+6r3LLUON SENwQ3TIiCK14Ch12RCNUZvvN0L7ku8fkMW3hpgMjBx9Cde2bTui4woTrYJTVBp0fTNO AWKDqR+/UdIsUNDRHkCo8J8Tcj6TVP54Qd/ivpxxPDjTYbqBT0O5mjLn3IDZcfprU0wx VA== Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2k2p75tfnf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:48 +0000 Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w6AFRl1g001807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:47 GMT Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id w6AFRlQX029663; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:47 GMT Received: from [10.0.1.20] (/24.86.190.97) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:27:47 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-15DD30F1-60DA-4620-9A32-99CADD134BA7 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Phil Hunt X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:27:46 -0700 Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: Mike Jones X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8949 signatures=668705 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=3 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807100165 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Security Event Token (SET) is now RFC 8417 X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:27:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail-15DD30F1-60DA-4620-9A32-99CADD134BA7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1! Many many thanks to my co-authors and to the WG. It seems like Yokohama and was just yesterday.=20 When we started, several groups were all on similar but independent incompat= ible approaches. Getting to a common and foundational event format is a big w= in! Congrats WG! Phil > On Jul 10, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Mike Jones wrote: >=20 > The Security Event Token (SET) specification is now RFC 8417. The abstrac= t describes the specification as: > This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A= SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a s= ubject. These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly t= o or about a security subject, for example, a statement about the issuance o= r revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specification is intend= ed to enable representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a J= SON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. SETs c= an be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. > =20 > SETs are already in use to represent OpenID Connect Back-Channel Logout to= kens and to represent Risk and Incident Sharing and Coordination (RISC) even= ts. Thanks to my co-editors, members of the IETF ID Events mailing list, an= d members of the IETF Security Events working group for making this standard= a reality! > =20 > -- Mike > =20 > P.S. This notice was also published at http://self-issued.info/?p=3D1891 a= nd as @selfissued. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma= n_listinfo_id-2Devent&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DRoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI= _JnE&r=3Dna5FVzBTWmanqWNy4DpctyXPpuYqPkAI1aLcLN4KZNA&m=3DtDbqAeMKpjI2Z2ZVOy5= DQEOdmL8SYYVuotPCKr5kUdk&s=3DPkAhpFisDjxFv_tXYZCXwO97HmAhmf4b8HQBv8I49UE&e=3D= --Apple-Mail-15DD30F1-60DA-4620-9A32-99CADD134BA7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
+1!

Many many thanks to my co-authors and to the WG.

It seems like Yokohama and was just yesterday. 

When we started, several groups were all on similar but independent incompatible approaches. Getting to a common and foundational event format is a big win!

Congrats WG!

Phil

On Jul 10, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The Security Event Token (SET) specification is now RFC 8417.  The abstract describes the specification as:

This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data structure. A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject. These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on behalf of a subject. This specification is intended to enable representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP.

 

SETs are already in use to represent OpenID Connect Back-Channel Logout tokens and to represent Risk and Incident Sharing and Coordination (RISC) events.  Thanks to my co-editors, members of the IETF ID Events mailing list, and members of the IETF Security Events working group for making this standard a reality!

 

                                                       -- Mike

 

P.S.  This notice was also published at http://self-issued.info/?p=1891 and as @selfissued.

 

--Apple-Mail-15DD30F1-60DA-4620-9A32-99CADD134BA7-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 12:46:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8009513104C for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AQnPNHKxL1l0 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x22b.google.com (mail-ua0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62847130E18 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i4-v6so7870096uak.0 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:46:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IbddO4haWHOf0Yl7DpOZYrGMLVgUufrGDIGqoTi/Fzs=; b=RBOPC9GaKO9ItwiW0j0qyDopCGLElHKZfgjydnOy5m6IlSM5nlklSx46j6QTwKepeD ODrtlsvwuim278JZHAZMhCj4RVxkTO8Diewye1nB9a8aaivLNHBde2h1uYbIXjQ69V3R JUcEiOSKfMK/F2ap9rF7++5+iWpBwlJJPGf5b+saa/LjNiUp1KVlKUmXfTzcfeq8/h7i VDGMbBoTeFtMEKFt/0Z0pRilu9czvNxceVd6PoxncLVwHCNbcOafZWPyQulWDtu1i/DY /YOJR56RWDuYLCDQr3kAsZSZdgrZKzGn3NGB3+Ko3WzW+k+wjcD4FR9hGFDIhT/d25HI F2CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IbddO4haWHOf0Yl7DpOZYrGMLVgUufrGDIGqoTi/Fzs=; b=Q1QZrg34xQ8Ibc6zgvY9YFrD4R0gHILkoOcYWpSXuBr2S2VL757tjiFmh817hOSPQl D1Qnsd/tQ3XFfbEceokBvKDCqS3Nkcn5KA1rdqsphpl749x59evIt/KZpO7do6PYtiVH aZy+960wC5wOU4Zvy8gQSBPq7Bx0EDkIQlAebeDrew5RUIUuGt30c4h/uujS2k31WwpG ZG6WLy4hPNVLIs2a/vvVq10TIoTjF7B5f5HmGd15t66nVXm2e97Fne0jADY8Vn+z0QyL H40NKlgiM3a80AkAvlQEE/Lx6+B25St64clsZrYYsB46hEdE1u6eFAfosOG98q1lx5G5 hBWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlG9SzjAQLBZHF+bPAg2BmLinzG5U3RM4lnvkWpX9cBrRaWbu8Cz /KzCbHoL5Gar/uFIsChB7GvWXzexgCEcZoRE+KzV0A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfzKq4FSlbH3gmoNxUfDco7uVTXyr8h2WBLTKJiYXTDPQ/NkEV4Kr1W2yNGA24+hqVvl2mfCIMlaAIwK9oEd6A= X-Received: by 2002:a9f:3409:: with SMTP id q9-v6mr329742uab.161.1531251968936; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:46:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab0:6383:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:45:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20180710051453.7905CB81560@rfc-editor.org> <885cb985-342a-571b-7674-aa8c51bc468b@gmail.com> From: William Denniss Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:45:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dick Hardt Cc: Yaron Sheffer , SecEvent Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ac2f8e0570aa6131" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:46:14 -0000 --000000000000ac2f8e0570aa6131 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Congratulations everyone! Thank you Yaron and Dick for your efforts chairing the working group! On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Dick Hardt wrote: > A big milestone! Well done WG! > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:58 PM Yaron Sheffer > wrote: > >> This is our working group's first RFC, and the foundation of the >> solution we are working on. Congratulations to us all, and a big thank >> you to the authors! >> >> Yaron >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET) >> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0700 (PDT) >> From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org >> To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org >> CC: drafts-update-ref@iana.org, id-event@ietf.org, >> rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org >> >> A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. >> >> RFC 8417 >> >> Title: Security Event Token (SET) Author: P. >> Hunt, Ed., >> M. Jones, W. Denniss, >> M. Ansari >> Status: Standards Track >> Stream: IETF >> Date: July 2018 >> Mailbox: phil.hunt@yahoo.com, >> mbj@microsoft.com, rfc8417@wdenniss.com, >> morteza.ansari@cisco.com >> Pages: 28 >> Characters: 64672 >> Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None >> >> I-D Tag: draft-ietf-secevent-token-13.txt >> >> URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417 >> >> DOI: 10.17487/RFC8417 >> >> This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data >> structure. A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective >> of an issuer about a subject. These statements of fact represent an >> event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for >> example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on >> behalf of a subject. This specification is intended to enable >> representing security- and identity-related events. A SET is a JSON >> Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted. >> SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP. >> >> This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the >> IETF.. >> >> >> This is now a Proposed Standard. >> >> STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track >> protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and >> suggestions >> for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official >> Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for >> the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of >> this memo is unlimited. >> >> This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. >> To subscribe or unsubscribe, see >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce >> https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist >> >> For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search >> For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk >> >> Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the >> author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless >> specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for >> unlimited distribution. >> >> >> The RFC Editor Team >> Association Management Solutions, LLC >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Id-event mailing list >> Id-event@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Id-event mailing list >> Id-event@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >> > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > --000000000000ac2f8e0570aa6131 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Congratulations everyone! Thank you Yaron and Dick for you= r efforts chairing the working group!

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Dick Hardt <= dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
A big milestone! Well done WG!
On Mon,= Jul 9, 2018 at 10:58 PM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
This is our= working group's first RFC, and the foundation of the
solution we are working on. Congratulations to us all, and a big thank
you to the authors!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET)
Date: Mon,=C2=A0 9 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: rfc-ed= itor@rfc-editor.org
To: ietf-announ= ce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
CC: drafts-= update-ref@iana.org, id-event@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 8417

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Security Event= Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P.=
Hunt, Ed.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0M. Jones,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0W. Denniss,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0M. Ansari
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Standards Trac= k
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stream:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0July 2018=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mailbox:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 phil.hunt@yahoo.com,
mbj@microsoft.com,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0rfc8417@wdenni= ss.com,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0morteza.an= sari@cisco.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Characters: 64672
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:=C2=A0 =C2=A0No= ne

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I-D Tag:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-secevent= -token-13.txt

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10.17487/= RFC8417

This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data
structure.=C2=A0 A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject.=C2=A0 These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for
example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on
behalf of a subject.=C2=A0 This specification is intended to enable
representing security- and identity-related events.=C2=A0 A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted.
SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP.

This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the IETF= ..


This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestion= s
for improvements.=C2=A0 Please refer to the current edition of the Official=
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/sta= ndards) for
the standardization state and status of this protocol.=C2=A0 Distribution o= f
this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists.
To subscribe or unsubscribe, see
=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/ietf-announce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist

For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/s= earch
For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/re= trieve/bulk

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org.=C2=A0 Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.


The RFC Editor Team
Association Management Solutions, LLC

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Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--000000000000ac2f8e0570aa6131-- From nobody Sat Jul 14 11:12:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF0F130DED; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gp55cTpim4Kt; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C930C130DD2; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 69-v6so12010472wmf.3; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yxrubTJJsQfVhJBP0OJgzhs6CxVkvORGUYyKfj16Occ=; b=jvUKjmfbQXAkYkFKGyeBx2CShpKUj2dDmt6DwvMcb3NjYwOpm4/G8Ul95d50TfMYcs KJeUn59zoDGPsYAXBzZFP1ZOc1EAShEsUK32EEBvsV6bIR0BuYB8X9AmaPzmewKxMpbN LIpv0AKqJtqZqb5rea545Pw1ylT96LUMxwxAXZHVOHouDwXnVtZC2GMlGsE7m8fMC9jn DuqXd1JgAdE79sIrG1DE124kcY4XqenalXxVax2qsbEZKAbFG5aWVQMTn5M5+kHFphdT uQkO6eN2gkZrWGCluc2YULFwUOORF0O4hPqrv9rmyw99EFX85xXky+8PGIDb0LDig7i1 hDLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yxrubTJJsQfVhJBP0OJgzhs6CxVkvORGUYyKfj16Occ=; b=kTyoZyqfb2iaAR0qBWeVfRQKxfwv1uFBMrKjOBqLBWxtY2MjQTq59yShWoi4W5aYOw wzOSNU5dXoSMFDKq02t1cVisl0mHjTYylz9F9e5IyJBCqDZRk/7yznxOUfqxxdvNaCGO UT5TKODmv0RKTLstFF+xLkec9f3OxQAYNezLcFVK3uc/NYHw/Rhmi9z61sD+MKm0fn/8 O8OiH6w1sqz5C3UT7qX9XI2foIrltN182xcLmrG0bEcepDyoTFNzn1J99rNpAgX/pevV BHTtFPTBNvhoQJgjZkxVVVSzcCMDe6kdnj+F/MY4Y8vUSfZZLVpVmJ9dCulHgAJ6E5VF D8ig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFvMlqrCSAMLM7zEUtTDAEaorNqvI8701mgji9171v7Vw9pghXD G3liLrv/4EWVQREuBI9RMReSv5qphJbnPCXsuMrjGeaI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpd8LLVKvSQf9feOgAAEzqoWSnwGuNPFHCvU0q2DQHDxIAtuDVtnvHkHDfB6GJg7TXPUqIVPBdQPEgb6wJtTT/Y= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f206:: with SMTP id s6-v6mr6856952wmc.50.1531591930981; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:12:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Marius Scurtescu Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:11:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: secevent-chairs@ietf.org, SecEvent , openid-specs-risc@lists.openid.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fcb46b0570f988c6" Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] employer and email address change X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:12:15 -0000 --000000000000fcb46b0570f988c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just a note that I changed employers and email addresses. I stopped working for Google on July 6, and my mscurtescu@google.com email is not working anymore. Please use marius.scurtescu@gmail.com from now on. I am joining Coinbase in a week. I will keep contributing to secevent and RISC as before. Best, Marius --000000000000fcb46b0570f988c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a note that I changed employers and email addres= ses.


I am joining Coinbase in a week. I will keep contributing to secev= ent and RISC as before.

Best,
Marius

--000000000000fcb46b0570f988c6-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 13:02:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietf.org Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764EC13101C; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:02:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: id-event@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.82.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: id-event@ietf.org Message-ID: <153194413641.2829.12273258761379424657@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:02:16 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] I-D Action: draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00.txt X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:02:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Security Events WG of the IETF. Title : Subject Identifiers for Security Event Tokens Authors : Annabelle Backman Marius Scurtescu Filename : draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2018-07-18 Abstract: Security events communicated within Security Event Tokens may support a variety of identifiers to identify the subject and/or other principals related to the event. This specification formalizes the notion of subject identifiers as named sets of well-defined claims describing the subject, a mechanism for representing subject identifiers within a [JSON] object such as a JSON Web Token [JWT] or Security Event Token [SET], and a registry for defining and allocating names for these claim sets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:01:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D6B12F18C for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazon.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fS8n1G-7UBTa for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-33001.amazon.com (smtp-fw-33001.amazon.com [207.171.190.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37F7A130EBE for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:01:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=amazon.com; i=@amazon.com; q=dns/txt; s=amazon201209; t=1531947690; x=1563483690; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=aGQitJwBvwl0eOLcn/EABfHNL9ITAl5HZ3TGoKYzZF0=; b=PytLictU4KQYMAgLbWUEgnjQoCuj73vrtH2JSoLf5H672WUWzF+Lr85n bupH0V4Nj4Vl0uGM6oNoRdhpkC6s7YE0gqe6lh4VMqwVSxThjEEcZQuHG r/skloFXayLHrw3iYpsrnX425WLIU5VkJ/a6xw9iabYiTrFr5LWza196h 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,371,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="745047606" Received: from sea3-co-svc-lb6-vlan2.sea.amazon.com (HELO email-inbound-relay-1d-37fd6b3d.us-east-1.amazon.com) ([10.47.22.34]) by smtp-border-fw-out-33001.sea14.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Jul 2018 21:01:15 +0000 Received: from EX13MTAUWC001.ant.amazon.com (iad55-ws-svc-p15-lb9-vlan3.iad.amazon.com [10.40.159.166]) by email-inbound-relay-1d-37fd6b3d.us-east-1.amazon.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w6IL10gW074283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:01:02 GMT Received: from EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.101) by EX13MTAUWC001.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:01:01 +0000 Received: from EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.101) by EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:01:01 +0000 Received: from EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com ([10.43.162.101]) by EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com ([10.43.162.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:01:01 +0000 From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" To: "id-event@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Id-event] I-D Action: draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUHtJVby9EvcL8BEmLR5z0IPshsqSVNCkA Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:01:01 +0000 Message-ID: <2243453F-081D-45B9-A2F8-1E8A2D0FA7EA@amazon.com> References: <153194413641.2829.12273258761379424657@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <153194413641.2829.12273258761379424657@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.f.0.180709 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.43.160.237] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] I-D Action: draft-ietf-secevent-subject-identifiers-00.txt X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." 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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB0304A425A3147F1A43336193F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 92767827-20d0-48c7-79ba-08d5ecf7d277 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:45:47.3835 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0333 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Preview of IETF 102 Poll-Based SET Delivery Presentation X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:45:53 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB0304A425A3147F1A43336193F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wanted to share the contents of my presentation for this Friday's SecEven= t meeting on the Poll-Based SET Delivery draft in advance. You can view th= e whole presentation at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/= slides-102-secevent-poll-based-delivery-00. Given that some of the slides = discuss issues with the draft, I'll break each of those out into separate e= -mail messages to facilitate discussion of the individual issues. The rema= inder of this message and my subsequent messages are transcriptions from th= e slides. Note that while all the issues identified apply to the Poll spec, some also= apply to the Push spec, given the significant duplication between the two = drafts. I look forward to talking in person on Friday! -- Mike draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll Michael B. Jones IETF 102, Montreal July 2018 What is it? * Defines polling delivery mechanism for SETs * draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll is essentially draft-ietf-secevent-deli= very after deletion of push-based delivery specifics * draft-ietf-secevent-http-push is likewise essentially draft-ietf-s= ecevent-delivery after deletion of poll-based delivery specifics --_000_SN6PR00MB0304A425A3147F1A43336193F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I wanted to share the contents of my presentation fo= r this Friday’s SecEvent meeting on the Poll-Based SET Delivery draft= in advance.  You can view the whole presentation at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-secevent-poll= -based-delivery-00.  Given that some of the slides discuss issues = with the draft, I’ll break each of those out into separate e-mail mes= sages to facilitate discussion of the individual issues.  The remainder of this message and my subsequent messages are= transcriptions from the slides.

 

Note that while all the issues identified apply to t= he Poll spec, some also apply to the Push spec, given the significant dupli= cation between the two drafts.

 

I look forward to talking in person on Friday!<= /o:p>

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        -- Mike

 

draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll

Michael B. Jones
IETF 102, Montreal
July 2018

 

What is it?

  • Defines polling d= elivery mechanism for SETs
  • draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll is essentially draft= -ietf-secevent-delivery after deletion of push-based delivery specifics
    • draft-ietf-seceve= nt-http-push is likewise essentially draft-ietf-secevent-delivery after del= etion of poll-based delivery specifics

 

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB0304A425A3147F1A43336193F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:47:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB94F130DD2 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:47:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a5JDAeiRVK_6 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr640099.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.64.99]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1537D130DEB for ; 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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB03041B10BE4E50104654C980F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ce70fec9-ad8e-4792-acc8-08d5ecf80848 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:47:17.7087 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0429 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Terminology Mismatch X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:47:22 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB03041B10BE4E50104654C980F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Terminology not aligned with SET [RFC 8417] * E.g., "Event Receiver" vs. "SET Recipient" --_000_SN6PR00MB03041B10BE4E50104654C980F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • Terminology not a= ligned with SET [RFC 8417]
    • E.g., “Even= t Receiver” vs. “SET Recipient”

 

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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB030406F542EEA166A318C25CF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f91cfae6-ed0b-47dd-cb87-08d5ecf81e7f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:47:54.9838 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0351 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Ambiguous Normative Text X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:48:01 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB030406F542EEA166A318C25CF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Some normative text is ambiguous * E.g., description of "sets" data structure unclear --_000_SN6PR00MB030406F542EEA166A318C25CF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • Some normative te= xt is ambiguous
    • E.g., description= of “sets” data structure unclear

 

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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB03045692A0BB438BDE2EE836F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 49c42407-f45e-460e-bb17-08d5ecf837d6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:48:37.4256 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0400 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Unnecessary Duplication of Information X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:48:45 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB03045692A0BB438BDE2EE836F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * The "sets" data structure contains the JWT ID ("jti") for each SET tw= ice * Once as an object name * Once in the object value ("jti" claim of the SET) * Duplication introduces error possibilities that shouldn't exist * What if the two "jti" values don't actually match? * Proposed fix: * Change "sets" to be simply an array of the SETs --_000_SN6PR00MB03045692A0BB438BDE2EE836F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • The “sets&#= 8221; data structure contains the JWT ID (“jti”) for each SET t= wice
    • Once as an object= name
    • Once in the object value (“jti” claim of the SET)
  • Duplication = introduces error possibilities that shouldn’t exist
    • What if the two &= #8220;jti” values don’t actually match?
  • Proposed fix= :
    • Change “set= s” to be simply an array of the SETs

 

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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB03046BD31C72BD456DC46737F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1e0f5f57-5166-4eca-c613-08d5ecf85dcb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:49:41.1522 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0400 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Odd Semantics X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:49:45 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB03046BD31C72BD456DC46737F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * "maxEvents" defines "returnImmediately" to sometimes be ignored * Parameter handling not orthogonal --_000_SN6PR00MB03046BD31C72BD456DC46737F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • “maxEvents&= #8221; defines “returnImmediately” to sometimes be ignored=
  • Parame= ter handling not orthogonal

 

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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB03045DB8F4762A2F8FCA6FA8F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 18f5ab85-56b2-4c95-7d4e-08d5ecf87ab7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:50:29.6842 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0400 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Functionality without Clear Motivation X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:50:34 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB03045DB8F4762A2F8FCA6FA8F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Spec says SETs MAY be reissued * But provides no accompanying guidance or rationale * Why might this occur? * Is it ever necessary? --_000_SN6PR00MB03045DB8F4762A2F8FCA6FA8F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • Spec says SETs MA= Y be reissued
  • But provides no accompanying guidance or rationale
    • Why might this oc= cur?
    • Is it ever necessary?

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB03045DB8F4762A2F8FCA6FA8F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:51:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB18E131068 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:51:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b3waRGbq3jLI for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam06on0095.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.53.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C22C130E5B for ; 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SN6PR00MB0398; 6:vjINaSF3pe2tsFHZdNm0fq4EEsbQnxBRAAizkkGgz3erXV4Gjxl9fvwCT6ApIoHd909wLPkpYNmRI2kS3ehA46C8bTKrEcUjY2DbLfYO8nZt3ExloLK/ityJ2v6HOGrfAEXJD1qHsfcAqPTBUMKc7+L5pBe1Yv+E2XmXk8QqM7C+V+CwMiwfpAPqqZQwhz7bBUYyXeO2ej3WG6MOI76VP5CpU3kG8WrDUezikXFaKiZno0wD7iHC9Pw9MHXZapUDXC9tWvskFtg0lTSZcVHtT0uQDe+3JzVyPbi9MONR9WlHRcjWL8uVG4EwUcTzKmPz9GfIAys50kurVJngNCz+YKFyxaFkHE/7j1J7Qme/Q/S9oGpL193mnG4Y4VBT0K4vqBUm+LTVxMOJLCpffMtJK+LbbwukML34e772vCkSMx+WRomZpcMSrD7oz3MkvcjXoJ8GrD4AZk3gxv2sdTSPYw==; 5:FQ92W34GqUQIYlAACMjKfV6sraMtoA4FjUWx0JFRB7KrLaRPrH10p1dcwZ5MCpF+iIMw3A4ikLWpHKSnEhMlTR/ie3GuXLvonzcQvCAuwxIeB+CaIJ+maK7BRwQWEvk/+VHj39DgyoXHLiJ/2JP61fYL1ZMEyx3L/Bln2MBSebo=; 7:9fm79XhDSJCcgJXAldY2neR3R2VtT1x+IATGOImfJoH5g8G5lnarfHM3f1K+pDDfonWshFUB6sc0X9Fw4APKuMz97A/KuFfbMXcITPzriHrONkE87FXCJKV5jDL/qjTT4P7R/IJ4DVVMX4/xvYEAT8tbNugsKV7UnUqtJdlDJpyyKSBTtWrawoLd8A0TEVqQfI25H7tdo/GT7hLQ+VD2zA4TEzSAc69stn6yiG+EYyeZFzBRx9SOswDo/m4GbPdV x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 57e6dcd2-c3e6-4d37-dd92-08d5ecf89b47 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600067)(711020)(4618075)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:SN6PR00MB0398; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR00MB0398: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Michael.Jones@microsoft.com; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(28532068793085)(21748063052155); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(2017102700009)(2017102701064)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(2017102702064)(20171027021009)(20171027022009)(20171027023009)(20171027024009)(20171027025009)(20171027026009)(2017102703076)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(2018427008)(10201501046)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123564045)(20161123558120)(20161123562045)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); 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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB0304F8A22888EAF30B15FF95F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 57e6dcd2-c3e6-4d37-dd92-08d5ecf89b47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:51:24.3355 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0398 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Poll-Based SET Delivery Issue: Functionality Incompletely Specified X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:34 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB0304F8A22888EAF30B15FF95F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * Spec says that there SHOULD be a mechanism for loss notification * but leaves the mechanism undefined --_000_SN6PR00MB0304F8A22888EAF30B15FF95F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • Spec says that th= ere SHOULD be a mechanism for loss notification
    • but leaves the me= chanism undefined

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB0304F8A22888EAF30B15FF95F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:52:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37181130E5B for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lWzztBxSLaEc for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam06on0107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.53.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F13E8130DD2 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=V+vG1Fz+vdinTUjpMGFBrvDIS8osvGm0S7f+ahFoFUo=; b=g17fLb9B3esBwWriFKp7bF6IlgbrMIv4agcU1SEDzv2ovzkCe+nZ4YATpqe7DrQQi5Xb5WMyE8LBrunVXU5I8oRexhv7bR7/HpsrpH5SNsF/JLyhPVAZtWiEGxA0T0qZJ+VeDXxgiTd3TjM0yBADiKnjv7D4nVg680c+GtiMGZ8= Received: from SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (52.132.117.158) by SN6PR00MB0398.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (52.132.118.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1010.0; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:56 +0000 Received: from SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::926:a011:7db6:4284]) by SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::926:a011:7db6:4284%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1015.000; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:56 +0000 From: Mike Jones To: "id-event@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?Windows-1252?Q?Poll-Based_SET_Delivery_Issue:_No_=93err=94_Registry?= Thread-Index: AdQe3uKJ/09VeQrMQVCGffyPQe1ZtQ== Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:51:56 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [31.133.151.54] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; SN6PR00MB0398; 6:LaDj91uCnfD/2yf2ASGEELIbq+WSlXjgeJQrjomV4qhQSc4oM3kK3lzfi3lr60Oq2aCb2a7CTE1B0WSr1HyuO5ralB5mseXrlwVr7gXm8uG0ZSPa1KF3cHEkQaz6QoFXwfEa1Pe6ZJOrHXxcVJjJYxSTvzuxoa0ipKpKk8WaHj2nTyxsQTZ1KctoeP392zeKjG14dXNwkAl/hsIjMNdjYITgmf94yrxHRNK4kf/a1NbQmAyP55inxmqC9DC+6C1YkUCMXm5Z9KKwLqmd+YOV5jQ7BJIhZTOiZ9dee1sd8DgtFbwPfB7XdEUyttIYJf99qqyaD5VRo+YdvU9Uyk415B41eWDpg/GwdGoeZUMG0nl7MSc6c037EHvQ2a45Zyx35++1k8W9JfFLcTlbzQfh3/riiGO47MDxFVruMOJYgKO5aym+PV7hD5DGWHMZmQfZ0wek2I7F1lNjn0bxgEzh4g==; 5:Ble8ykRlYXRsJM+SM5pziqrk2DOE5oQkIGu8wCmCn9jWguQrri1qXtuCOthsmHf7+OJDPHUYl7UKohOTu3GVc5ouqwWV8S1cNPS4wvEiil5fw9IG0xtdf/rNRqI4pxzZWl5k68iPTC30s983FjkQFSYRCCnnUR5FaG/hOAuF6bU=; 7:CKQUeG9gHr5TRBCdwbikBvjdNCrdbLUODN/8ftb/7fUjCuojWch5l7Qh9i8J+7vjCA1CuL5y3lRG/zcZRfy5ysgD1L2b+AulX9KKpwVzF6oTA7hY4ig382Qg714TrTJndZifF8mNIRo4hGAimQZW/HlxwCJgCMFcSLm0JJraow0vu0tb0Fl8tg6DwMFctNUKyKEsAQYZjm445SPmn6yILhgPrYnD34ZzQ660C561j/a/YrD96wOvat8g79BYQ7R1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0b7b0dad-c43c-428f-e810-08d5ecf8ae77 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600067)(711020)(4618075)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:SN6PR00MB0398; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR00MB0398: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Michael.Jones@microsoft.com; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(28532068793085)(21748063052155); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(2017102700009)(2017102701064)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(2017102702064)(20171027021009)(20171027022009)(20171027023009)(20171027024009)(20171027025009)(20171027026009)(2017102703076)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(2018427008)(10201501046)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123564045)(20161123558120)(20161123562045)(20161123560045)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:SN6PR00MB0398; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:SN6PR00MB0398; x-forefront-prvs: 0737B96801 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(346002)(376002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(199004)(189003)(2501003)(2351001)(99286004)(316002)(81156014)(5250100002)(22452003)(256004)(81166006)(53936002)(186003)(66066001)(2900100001)(10290500003)(6436002)(25786009)(6506007)(476003)(6916009)(9686003)(102836004)(7736002)(5630700001)(8990500004)(7696005)(5640700003)(33656002)(74316002)(486006)(68736007)(5660300001)(86612001)(2906002)(478600001)(6116002)(8936002)(790700001)(558084003)(3846002)(10090500001)(105586002)(14454004)(54896002)(72206003)(106356001)(6306002)(55016002)(86362001)(97736004)(26005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN6PR00MB0398; H:SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: pnkk1OVWsA/MrHzQpW8BFvUTm6lUK6uadxbeo+3ToQOzvZZqVHrL7kcL3E6qPNPIBS7Kp1EsEjrNokCrpPEYZx35+IwZn1GtboLXG1h4c08p6G6jHDSFqvfwKj9SGZhm6JF6dUl92FsZ90sM0eIRjkMZ64IlgDC2TRctnuHIbnL0vwmh0DOArgQO2LCcKFgLL8zV8ZpNORO0WPRWw8PZq+g1RBhAOTh0uX4d1ErB4OKEQ2Et2F9JHLZgMQsOSILKKN/r8Ez8qArvoRdiI0auXx+j+oNX80+5K1YSJUDir3pS1AhJfxfrryM/PEUAQfLWR72lqMwuDZx60BR6B1EOJdABOvg6iRodvOUSb+6gZ30= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB0304D71ED7D43F2754AD5AC4F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0b7b0dad-c43c-428f-e810-08d5ecf8ae77 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:51:56.4960 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0398 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] =?windows-1252?q?Poll-Based_SET_Delivery_Issue=3A_No_?= =?windows-1252?q?=93err=94_Registry?= X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:52:01 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB0304D71ED7D43F2754AD5AC4F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * No IANA registry is established for =93err=94 values --_000_SN6PR00MB0304D71ED7D43F2754AD5AC4F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • No IANA registry = is established for =93err=94 values

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB0304D71ED7D43F2754AD5AC4F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:52:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99F0130E5B for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:52:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_MOSTLY=0.428, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wzht-0sb3zIi for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam06on0126.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.53.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 037F8130DD2 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:52:51 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB030410F9BA01EDD6563D7AAAF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * (not detailed here) --_000_SN6PR00MB030410F9BA01EDD6563D7AAAF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  • (not detailed = here)

 

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boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB0304B6B655F84EEF0EC4FD9BF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6702bc16-ee41-4b8f-2535-08d5ecf8eff7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 21:53:46.4048 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0397 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:53:52 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB0304B6B655F84EEF0EC4FD9BF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs * Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated * Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines * 572 of these lines are identical * 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll Problems with Duplication * Not perfectly duplicated * Edits to common text have already been inconsistently applied in s= everal cases * Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync * Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional * Some normative data structures duplicated * For instance, error values defined twice * Will they be kept in sync? * Will they live in a common registry? * Which will be authoritative? Assertion: Current Organization Untenable * Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for editors * Manual steps to keep common text consistent * Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers * Having to figure out what's the same and what's different and try = to understand why * Massive duplication will confuse implementers * Having to figure out what's the same and what's different and try = to understand why Possible Solutions * Move to three delivery specs * One for common pieces * One for only push-specific pieces * One for only poll-specific pieces * Move to one delivery spec * All text occurs only once * Push-specific pieces in one section * Poll-specific pieces in a different section * Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional * I believe this will be easier for all to understand Discussion * As an editor, I'm not prone to fix problems in duplicated text until = we solve the duplication problem * Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice * Data gathering * Who has reviewed both specs? * What was your experience reviewing them? * How should we solve the duplication problem? * Should we have one or three specs? --_000_SN6PR00MB0304B6B655F84EEF0EC4FD9BF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs

  • Content of 6 of 7= top-level sections in both specs duplicated
  • Push source is 708 lines, poll i= s 984 lines
    • 572 of these line= s are identical
    • 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll

Problems with Duplication

  • Not perfectly dup= licated
    • Edits to common t= ext have already been inconsistently applied in several cases
    • Requires manual= editor actions to keep in sync
    • Sometimes unclear which divergences intention= al
  • Some normati= ve data structures duplicated
    • For instance, err= or values defined twice
    • Will they be kept in sync?
    • Will they live in a common= registry?
    • Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable

  • Massive duplicati= on creates consistency nightmare for editors
    • Manual steps to k= eep common text consistent
  • Massive dupl= ication creates significant work for reviewers
    • Having to figure = out what’s the same and what’s different and try to understand = why
  • Massive dupl= ication will confuse implementers
    • Having to figure = out what’s the same and what’s different and try to understand = why

Possible Solutions

  • Move to three del= ivery specs
    • One for common pi= eces
    • One for only push-specific pieces
    • One for only poll-specific pieces
  • Move to one = delivery spec
    • All text occurs o= nly once
    • Push-specific pieces in one section
    • Poll-specific pieces in a differen= t section
    • Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional
    • I believe this will = be easier for all to understand

Discussion

  • As an editor, I&#= 8217;m not prone to fix problems in duplicated text until we solve the dupl= ication problem
    • Unreasonable to a= sk us to do everything twice
  • Data gatheri= ng
    • Who has reviewed = both specs?
    • What was your experience reviewing them?
  • How should w= e solve the duplication problem?
    • Should we have on= e or three specs?

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB0304B6B655F84EEF0EC4FD9BF5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 15:00:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5207B131164 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Jrj4bFVBu2n for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22c.google.com (mail-pl0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DC3A131007 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z7-v6so858344plo.9 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=M3ielp6HllldRf4p+WRPkK7Ih+bEqcl0eEfl9ASorfk=; b=pB8QzV0pD1LYKSnywL3epvDEkuIDQhuoLyctHFlmUgEkCRy3ZRpylqvI36Gk1lMnhB ZHMuTLSNIOl/xzn2B1RTrFGKf+ZDilUHDiwL22Cp29vduee8pL9o2e3WzSJGPx20nRly J+D1u9TRFQYgg7XdSGSpO0T5aLT/3QWF+qdEbvN+PultVy+1JiMG8CZmc2H+hQ/OgSB9 8fvvRi7+EF7NFLZENACyMP1yAIHUKpQhG+3d5SqvJQFM14K0dVszq8arV5+7KFR+fw9k 09H7FkEHvlCpZb/4LgSliG+mGUoGbyiwY0jE0fOFG44hS2C22lQ6nJqzbFjFRT9h7o6G FmoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=M3ielp6HllldRf4p+WRPkK7Ih+bEqcl0eEfl9ASorfk=; b=DCNeedqwXZo2hSCbgMNktVulKHVpAqDHX+pjuTE32JDegMy/ftedRKkLna7wn/GX6B HnAeOSI3XqlLme30VDayvUtF3aDvlyR8PCTzFCIWGsQDVjjv9QPW36t7xeBkklOcODa2 NLTTCVKBPJUOdWhiXDrQ9yjJEmbblCh2JAUDxNmj2qDOdVus1xJ9FdXPg34merywxF1n nrYOcZ9pmX2LiEFtvbhUHaNitxEc1Y07BXonuVcCAxzOkMRe+cYAIBlujqpmYjn8MrP5 yQCnFaknXHHgAlUqmGD0gTG2edoua26IFlvZDBC16jqF0xeAFBcOg1iA6wIkj5hYzDSG 3yfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEf+nRqqKNmiO3FQjRy9/4yoNpkgaMdaunZfJ/XTyQ+NH4lF/By VfYReMCQRX9QH1AeEim899zZ93gSIdyXVK0id+A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcuNh/DIwiWv3hV3yjCZjROuBKDBEZqvdWgB5s2rmC4D43b7VIhsMgDusVd0KnN+GUM1I7OGyUhe9Gh290gdgk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8541:: with SMTP id d1-v6mr7597700plo.81.1531951207853; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:59:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Dick Hardt Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:59:47 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mike Jones Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008eb3d305714d2f4d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:00:12 -0000 --0000000000008eb3d305714d2f4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the docs is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, and the other spec could refer to that content. Personally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to figure out how to do something. On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones < Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs* > > - Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated > - Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines > - 572 of these lines are identical > - 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll > > *Problems with Duplication* > > - Not perfectly duplicated > - Edits to common text have already been inconsistently applied in > several cases > - Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync > - Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional > - Some normative data structures duplicated > - For instance, error values defined twice > - Will they be kept in sync? > - Will they live in a common registry? > - Which will be authoritative? > > *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable* > > - Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for editors > - Manual steps to keep common text consistent > - Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers > - Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s d= ifferent and try > to understand why > - Massive duplication will confuse implementers > - Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s d= ifferent and try > to understand why > > *Possible Solutions* > > - Move to three delivery specs > - One for common pieces > - One for only push-specific pieces > - One for only poll-specific pieces > - Move to one delivery spec > - All text occurs only once > - Push-specific pieces in one section > - Poll-specific pieces in a different section > - Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional > - *I believe this will be easier for all to understand* > > *Discussion* > > - As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in duplicated te= xt until > we solve the duplication problem > - Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice > - Data gathering > - Who has reviewed both specs? > - What was your experience reviewing them? > - How should we solve the duplication problem? > - Should we have one or three specs? > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > --0000000000008eb3d305714d2f4d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the doc= s is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, an= d the other spec could refer to that content.=C2=A0

Pers= onally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to figure = out how to do something.


On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike= Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs=

  • Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs = duplicated
  • Push source is 708 lin= es, poll is 984 lines
    • 572 of these lines are identical
      • =
    • 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll

Problems with Duplication

  • Not perfectly duplicated
    • Edits to common text have already been inconsistent= ly applied in several cases
    • Requi= res manual editor actions to keep in sync
    • Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional
      • =
  • Some normative data structures duplicated
    • For instance, error values defined twice<= /u>
    • Will they be kept in sync?
    • Will they live in a common registry?
    • Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable<= u>

  • Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare f= or editors
    • Manual steps to keep common text consistent<= u>
  • Massive duplication creates significant work f= or reviewers
    • Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and wh= at=E2=80=99s different and try to understand why
  • Massive duplication will confuse implementers<= u>
    • Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and wh= at=E2=80=99s different and try to understand why

Possible Solutions

  • Move to three delivery specs
    • One for common pieces
    • One for only push-specific pieces
    • One for only poll-specific pieces
  • Move to one delivery spec
    • All text occurs only once
    • Push-specific pieces in one section
    • Poll-specific pieces in a different section
    • Note: Both mechanisms could still be optiona= l
    • I believe this will be easie= r for all to understand

Discussion

  • As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems= in duplicated text until we solve the duplication problem
    • Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice
  • Data gathering
    • Who has reviewed both specs?
    • What was your experience reviewing them?<= /li>
  • How should we solve the duplication problem?
    • Should we have one or three specs?

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


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cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1015.0; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:45:21 +0000 Received: from SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::926:a011:7db6:4284]) by SN6PR00MB0304.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::926:a011:7db6:4284%4]) with mapi id 15.20.1015.000; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:45:21 +0000 From: Mike Jones To: "id-event@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Issues for both the Push and Poll Specs Thread-Index: AdQe5dyZ8jIefpPYRLO5k8aTU43eqQ== Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:45:20 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [31.133.151.54] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; SN6PR00MB0350; 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PrRbk2Tpkg5NKcb+yyTPCcrnU/mJHMpUXAgGXUmQqloqw87mmBzP+aESsmWL29jcUVmjMjKWQmJyLv1iW0Li3nSpfS0spEl1KtGCGY/L53u2Zb8SaFI5KY/74+DX6lVwv4ERh5cgDutHxbTYyBfEcXWYKFwrSANkB3tUDvYoaZR/bh9OXSQLLuyYq7Fq1OJn7Sx2iETPpUD77cVCMbSFgzSmR2ex0B9fh1KLIk7JpVls7oDwJE+5H9Pf7Wls0o/9ZXE380uWBfPBVSx1rHHBEuvXYRv0OGraGEJTAt1k59qkTalal2tv2NSzI3C1Ad5LT2fzXVWhKNxOqP4kd3qnLONQuf6KsrHbETOqCyhkG7A= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR00MB0304DC6A848B33C35BE55EB3F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 750d6902-9979-4d29-787e-08d5ed002481 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jul 2018 22:45:20.9599 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR00MB0350 Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Issues for both the Push and Poll Specs X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:45:27 -0000 --_000_SN6PR00MB0304DC6A848B33C35BE55EB3F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These aren't in my presentation but I encountered them during my reviews of= the specs and wanted to record them so they're addressed: "SET Token" -> "SET" or "Security Event Token (SET)" "authorization token" -> "access token" Add a comma before "subject to". "out-of-scope" -> "out of scope" "queues up" -> "queues" "e.g." (and "i.e.") is always to be followed by a comma "Section 2 [RFC6202]" -> "Section 2 of [RFC6202]" (and similar places where= "of" was omitted) Add a comma before "pending availability" Add a comma before "which is out of scope" "re-try" -> "retry" "SET event" -> "SET" "SET events" -> "SETs" What is the purpose of the word "nested" in the phrase "one or more nested = JSON attributes"? "re-issue" -> "reissue" Add a comma before "where possible" Fix reference in "Because SETs are not commands (see )" "SETs contain sensitive information" -> "SETs may contain sensitive informa= tion" Update SET reference to [RFC 8417] Update the OpenID Connect reference to be the same as the "OpenID.Core" ref= erence used in the SET spec [RFC 8417] Fix SAML2 reference to be the same as that in RFC 7522 "The editors would like to thanks" -> "The editors would like to thank" "The editor would like to thank" -> "The editors would like to thank" -- Mike --_000_SN6PR00MB0304DC6A848B33C35BE55EB3F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

These aren’t in my presentation but I encounte= red them during my reviews of the specs and wanted to record them so they&#= 8217;re addressed:

 

“SET Token” -> “SET” or &= #8220;Security Event Token (SET)”

“authorization token” -> “acces= s token”

Add a comma before “subject to”.

“out-of-scope” -> “out of scope= ”

“queues up” -> “queues”

“e.g.” (and “i.e.”) is alway= s to be followed by a comma

“Section 2 [RFC6202]” -> “Secti= on 2 of [RFC6202]” (and similar places where “of” was omi= tted)

Add a comma before “pending availability”= ;

Add a comma before “which is out of scope̶= 1;

“re-try” -> “retry”<= /o:p>

“SET event” -> “SET”=

“SET events” -> “SETs”

What is the purpose of the word “nested”= in the phrase “one or more nested JSON attributes”?=

“re-issue” -> “reissue”

Add a comma before “where possible”=

Fix reference in “Because SETs are not command= s (see )”

“SETs contain sensitive information” -&g= t; “SETs may contain sensitive information”

Update SET reference to [RFC 8417]

Update the OpenID Connect reference to be the same a= s the “OpenID.Core” reference used in the SET spec [RFC 8417]

Fix SAML2 reference to be the same as that in RFC 75= 22

“The editors would like to thanks” ->= “The editors would like to thank”

“The editor would like to thank” -> &= #8220;The editors would like to thank”

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        -- Mike

 

--_000_SN6PR00MB0304DC6A848B33C35BE55EB3F5530SN6PR00MB0304namp_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 16:00:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEA113102E for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O2pzEmHzcQP7 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81E64130DDC for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id l123-v6so2878781pfl.13 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=B8hODkJqoPHGkeBRqxfdgFzYjRzQ7ETCFkW/Y8dAyfc=; b=XWofEu/aA4s9HB0Te/QgaTuzwEt7z3DoVk9qK5oE+FbtFxfhor4wzzmx9EekkjITRk BbgV1FNdoH86Ob8aXk3TI/66pbP/nUJqjyCyctVH6UzffBG5xSsAlqBY/e8fPnHF3mzM ctfwKXNo4NXqKeKe3I7H63F4pHYekRMdLgComaqcEnqguxvfnLmwia9b1b26jBYqVDlA rch1WIeNui2NyjWIUcVah/I6H2nwnbaT11LPOXpv8TSedENSwnHMttPY99POCmUaXXOc OjMR2S5AIcLhUTszMsgSObhhSmWn52aM26s82YQF5iDBzc2dG1M9gp7ok3FLKcTT2Zc5 GPtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=B8hODkJqoPHGkeBRqxfdgFzYjRzQ7ETCFkW/Y8dAyfc=; b=b6q+lT44yVtOIkB8wLijCLsoH/xr0aM+ZgGytpE3YptcwEODaJzx+91W+FpJe5J6Va CySwrRQFBu2kszg1cWPceVUp9eS9LUn5taQKzwVPOcOVCKC3U0L4cW4S7gotIjT/kiNq wHmb0NCoYz6dxNROdhWIP6nFzGyE/jUU77NI4Zls0Kcj4CU7iNH1URtQrIKH8R8fRLE8 r1gum4O8uHs4Bnkx3949WqoBeHOB3BrozcrotzVtQLgd6/oKn+3M2Kzco7jSgv2EbaJU zZLpQpnem1CVcXW2Hmm6MN2FzELOgY3lBn8O6Snv0w001xwNAcmAhbz2EcE8oc7lm7i9 Z3EA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHSf+DzXnRvnp33R0Oc9knvSxdmzIBszBsCfwOaFoFkXnHbjK3l iWTWU9E2DMRdBSyVa5PWSkQuOGIsAbLiaHCOUSA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcnGHe7l2KHlYYKlPTGNNBGFOe2w08UxnR3bbbCr2EvbWr6cJVWAJO5Kj6A676GUud9Dier6KOm3gTM7YvajJA= X-Received: by 2002:a62:f50b:: with SMTP id n11-v6mr7050092pfh.120.1531954816590; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:00:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:59:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Dick Hardt Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:59:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mike Jones Cc: "id-event@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7a89a05714e06b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:00:21 -0000 --000000000000a7a89a05714e06b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what was minimally required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using the wrong words. There was concern from implementors that they would have to implement both "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementors only expected to implement one method. *if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are better than one, as you only have to read what you are implementing. On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones wrote: > We can=E2=80=99t require that everyone implement an RFC. Whether to do s= o is > always a choice. > > > > In the two RFCs case, even though neither would be required, one could > contain all the common content and the other reference it. Some of that > was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remov= e > duplication that had been present at one point. > > > > I agree with you that having to read a large set of documents is > suboptimal. As I see it, one would be better than two, which would be > better than three. > > > > -- Mike > > > > *From:* Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the docs is required t= o > be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, and the other spe= c > could refer to that content. > > > > Personally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to > figure out how to do something. > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones com@dmarc..ietf.org > wro= te: > > *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs* > > - Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated > - Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines > > > - 572 of these lines are identical > - 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll > > *Problems with Duplication* > > =C2=B7 Not perfectly duplicated > > =C2=B7 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently appli= ed in > several cases > > =C2=B7 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync > > =C2=B7 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional > > =C2=B7 Some normative data structures duplicated > > =C2=B7 For instance, error values defined twice > > =C2=B7 Will they be kept in sync? > > =C2=B7 Will they live in a common registry? > > =C2=B7 Which will be authoritative? > > *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable* > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for edito= rs > > =C2=B7 Manual steps to keep common text consistent > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication will confuse implementers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > *Possible Solutions* > > - Move to three delivery specs > > > - One for common pieces > - One for only push-specific pieces > - One for only poll-specific pieces > > =C2=B7 Move to one delivery spec > > =C2=B7 All text occurs only once > > =C2=B7 Push-specific pieces in one section > > =C2=B7 Poll-specific pieces in a different section > > =C2=B7 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional > > =C2=B7 *I believe this will be easier for all to understand* > > *Discussion* > > =C2=B7 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in dupl= icated text > until we solve the duplication problem > > =C2=B7 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice > > =C2=B7 Data gathering > > =C2=B7 Who has reviewed both specs? > > =C2=B7 What was your experience reviewing them? > > =C2=B7 How should we solve the duplication problem? > > =C2=B7 Should we have one or three specs? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > --000000000000a7a89a05714e06b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what w= as minimally required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using the w= rong words. There was concern from implementors that they would have to imp= lement both "push" and "poll" if both are in the same d= ocument, and many implementors only expected to implement one method.=C2=A0=

*if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are be= tter than one, as you only have to read what you are implementing.



On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones <Mi= chael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

We can=E2=80=99t requi= re that everyone implement an RFC.=C2=A0 Whether to do so is always a choic= e.

=C2=A0

In the two RFCs case, = even though neither would be required, one could contain all the common con= tent and the other reference it.=C2=A0 Some of that was done between JWS [R= FC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remove duplication that had been present at one point.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that = having to read a large set of documents is suboptimal.=C2=A0 As I see it, o= ne would be better than two, which would be better than three.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of t= he docs is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that sp= ec, and the other spec could refer to that content.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Personally, I hate having to read a large set of dif= ferent documents to figure out how to do something.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org> wrote:=

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs

  • Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated=
  • Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines
    • 572 of these lines are identical
    • 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll

Problems with Duplication

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Not perfectly duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Edits to common text have already been inconsis= tently applied in several cases

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync<= u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some normative data structures duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For instance, error values defined twice=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they be kept in sync?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they live in a common registry?<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates consistency nightma= re for editors

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Manual steps to keep common text consistent<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates significant work fo= r reviewers

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same an= d what=E2=80=99s different and try to understand why

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication will confuse implementers <= u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same an= d what=E2=80=99s different and try to understand why

Possible Solutions

  • Move to three delivery specs
    • One for common pieces
    • One for only push-specific pieces
    • One for only poll-specific pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to one delivery spec

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All text occurs only once

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Push-specific pieces in one section

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Poll-specific pieces in a different section<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe this will be easier for all to und= erstand

Discussion

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix prob= lems in duplicated text until we solve the duplication problem

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data gathering

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Who has reviewed both specs?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What was your experience reviewing them?=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 How should we solve the duplication problem?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Should we have one or three specs?

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

=C2=A0


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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7tS1cweBhcBH for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 777DF12F1A5 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id z13-v6so4983986wma.5 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GKlz/q1h61HMQnFzN6dRG3FIJYBEUMAs0jN3W0dViek=; b=V7TJGxzaOzGfJAsklRIPy+s8s2Jd2VVE8v5VvzrEr3VfcrzBj33MDdWwlM79AW7X6M 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcFRaaKbKO8wCLur2E17FDLLZuBal1f2W0qtpz5stUaAqkHsCFRonAevb2vm8IotIWMtQUGLFIJaLl0IvBv18c= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2807:: with SMTP id o7-v6mr3019539wmo.11.1531978732626; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Adam Dawes Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: Dick Hardt , ID Events Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a06cf057153985e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:38:59 -0000 --0000000000002a06cf057153985e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones wrote: > The solution to the worry that people would have to implement both is to > explicitly say in the single draft that a conforming implementation can > implement pull, poll, or both. I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder t= han that. > I believe one of the other reasons for separating out the drafts now was that the push spec was more mature and there was high demand for it with RISC. Would it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and when two of the three sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for ratification and then a branch of it with the third sections continues and then when consensus of that is reached we seek ratification on the full version? > *From:* Id-event *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what was minimally > required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using the wrong words. > There was concern from implementors that they would have to implement bot= h > "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementors > only expected to implement one method. > > > > *if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are better than one, as > you only have to read what you are implementing. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > > We can=E2=80=99t require that everyone implement an RFC. Whether to do s= o is > always a choice. > > > > In the two RFCs case, even though neither would be required, one could > contain all the common content and the other reference it. Some of that > was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remov= e > duplication that had been present at one point. > > > > I agree with you that having to read a large set of documents is > suboptimal. As I see it, one would be better than two, which would be > better than three. > > > > -- Mike > > > > *From:* Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the docs is required t= o > be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, and the other spe= c > could refer to that content. > > > > Personally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to > figure out how to do something. > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones < > Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org > > wrote: > > *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs* > > - Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated > - Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines > > =C2=B7 572 of these lines are identical > > =C2=B7 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll > > *Problems with Duplication* > > =C2=B7 Not perfectly duplicated > > =C2=B7 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently appli= ed in > several cases > > =C2=B7 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync > > =C2=B7 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional > > =C2=B7 Some normative data structures duplicated > > =C2=B7 For instance, error values defined twice > > =C2=B7 Will they be kept in sync? > > =C2=B7 Will they live in a common registry? > > =C2=B7 Which will be authoritative? > > *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable* > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for edito= rs > > =C2=B7 Manual steps to keep common text consistent > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication will confuse implementers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > *Possible Solutions* > > =C2=B7 Move to three delivery specs > > =C2=B7 One for common pieces > > =C2=B7 One for only push-specific pieces > > =C2=B7 One for only poll-specific pieces > > =C2=B7 Move to one delivery spec > > =C2=B7 All text occurs only once > > =C2=B7 Push-specific pieces in one section > > =C2=B7 Poll-specific pieces in a different section > > =C2=B7 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional > > =C2=B7 *I believe this will be easier for all to understand* > > *Discussion* > > =C2=B7 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in dupl= icated text > until we solve the duplication problem > > =C2=B7 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice > > =C2=B7 Data gathering > > =C2=B7 Who has reviewed both specs? > > =C2=B7 What was your experience reviewing them? > > =C2=B7 How should we solve the duplication problem? > > =C2=B7 Should we have one or three specs? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > --=20 Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410 --0000000000002a06cf057153985e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Ju= l 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The solution to the wo= rry that people would have to implement both is to explicitly say in the si= ngle draft that a conforming implementation can implement pull, poll, or bo= th.=C2=A0 I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder than that.


I believ= e one of the other reasons for separating out the drafts now was that the p= ush spec was more mature and there was high demand for it with RISC. Would = it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and when two of the t= hree sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for ratification and t= hen a branch of it with the third sections continues and then when consensu= s of that is reached we seek ratification on the full version?


<= /div>

=C2=A0

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about = what was minimally required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using= the wrong words. There was concern from implementors that they would have = to implement both "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementors only expected to i= mplement one method.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are= better than one, as you only have to read what you are implementing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@= microsoft.com> wrote:

We can=E2=80=99t requi= re that everyone implement an RFC.=C2=A0 Whether to do so is always a choic= e.

=C2=A0

In the two RFCs case, = even though neither would be required, one could contain all the common con= tent and the other reference it.=C2=A0 Some of that was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remove duplicat= ion that had been present at one point.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that = having to read a large set of documents is suboptimal.=C2=A0 As I see it, o= ne would be better than two, which would be better than three.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of t= he docs is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that sp= ec, and the other spec could refer to that content.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Personally, I hate having to read a large set of dif= ferent documents to figure out how to do something.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org> wrote:<= u>

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs

  • Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated=
  • Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 572 of these lines are identical<= /p>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll<= u>

Problems with Duplication

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Not perfectly duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently applied in sev= eral cases

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some normative data structures duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For instance, error values defined twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they be kept in sync?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they live in a common registry?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for editors

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Manual steps to keep common text consistent

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication will confuse implementers

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

Possible Solutions

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to three delivery specs

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for common pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only push-specific pieces=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only poll-specific pieces=

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to one delivery spec

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All text occurs only once

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Push-specific pieces in one section

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Poll-specific pieces in a different section

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe this will be easier for all to understand=

Discussion

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in duplicated te= xt until we solve the duplication problem

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data gathering

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Who has reviewed both specs?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What was your experience reviewing them?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 How should we solve the duplication problem?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Should we have one or three specs?

=C2=A0


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=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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--
Adam Dawes=C2=A0|=C2=A0Sr. Product Manager=C2=A0|=C2=A0adawes@google.com=C2=A0|=C2=A0+1 650-214-2410

--0000000000002a06cf057153985e-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 08:02:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284C8130E7C for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazon.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9pr82ui2N92A for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E23E1310F0 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:02:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=amazon.com; i=@amazon.com; q=dns/txt; s=amazon201209; t=1532012561; x=1563548561; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=zaRdjoq9Xzk27FrqPrkYaTv4wR/N6iNpj0Ql91WAnP8=; b=f0IGaIOz8/DoVOmxxSwXtLoNhHtVieKkx+lZAOvrhhSWVEOnSVZGnA3w m1c1yb/83pb/csfi4AbDgCArx44E3hTekxmYF5parcfJiv6PwNI1lwUUh ec1WpljJElEM0M91pRfvOs8SPVOJCk4JVpvuWrQIqkdczNQWMM+m8rJsI 8=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,374,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="688521026" Received: from iad6-co-svc-p1-lb1-vlan2.amazon.com (HELO email-inbound-relay-2c-fd2e194e.us-west-2.amazon.com) ([10.124.125.2]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Jul 2018 15:02:39 +0000 Received: from EX13MTAUWC001.ant.amazon.com (pdx1-ws-svc-p6-lb9-vlan3.pdx.amazon.com [10.236.137.198]) by email-inbound-relay-2c-fd2e194e.us-west-2.amazon.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w6JF2atZ119024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:37 GMT Received: from EX13D11UWC003.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.162) by EX13MTAUWC001.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:36 +0000 Received: from EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.101) by EX13D11UWC003.ant.amazon.com (10.43.162.162) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:36 +0000 Received: from EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com ([10.43.162.101]) by EX13D11UWC004.ant.amazon.com ([10.43.162.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:36 +0000 From: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" To: Adam Dawes CC: "Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , ID Events Mailing List , Dick Hardt Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication Thread-Index: AdQe314cUhoolK7bQfGpFIH14Nj1WAAA0ZGAAAAX/SAAAgHMAAAAkCZAAA1cqIAAE7IzKg== Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: <52042A54-5B70-4931-BA07-BA03C4DEDBB6@amazon.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_52042A545B704931BA07BA03C4DEDBB6amazoncom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:02:51 -0000 --_000_52042A545B704931BA07BA03C4DEDBB6amazoncom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VG8gc29tZSBleHRlbnQgdGhhdCBkdXBsaWNhdGlvbiBpcyBkZWxpYmVyYXRlLiBUaGUgSFRUUCBQ dXNoIGRyYWZ0IHdhcyBjcmVhdGVkIGJ5IHN0YXJ0aW5nIGZyb20gdGhlIGNvbWJpbmVkIGRyYWZ0 IGFuZCBzdHJpcHBpbmcgb3V0IGFsbCByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIEhUVFAgUG9sbCwgYW5kIHZpY2Ut dmVyc2EgZm9yIHRoZSBIVFRQIFBvbGwgZHJhZnQuIFRoaXMgd2FzIGRvbmUgdG8gbWluaW1pemUg dGhlIHJpc2sgb2YgaW50cm9kdWNpbmcgdW5pbnRlbnRpb25hbCBub3JtYXRpdmUgY2hhbmdlcyB3 aGVuIHNwbGl0dGluZyB0aGUgZHJhZnQuIEnigJlkIG9yaWdpbmFsbHkgaW50ZW5kZWQgdGhlc2Ug LTAwIGRyYWZ0cyB0byBsaXZlIGp1c3QgbG9uZyBlbm91Z2ggZm9yIHRoZSBXRyB0byBjb25maXJt IHRoYXQgdGhleSBjb3JyZWN0bHkgcmVmbGVjdCB0aGUgbm9ybWF0aXZlIGNvbnRlbnQgb2YgdGhl IG9yaWdpbmFsLCBhdCB3aGljaCBwb2ludCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBmb2xsb3cgd2l0aCByZXZpc2lvbnMg 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86FaCnEU1F9uLDaVVvFGbW2bbZMvCzs9DHM2hnNVVIcBGacier8S2UeyFjUgv3Y4I/9j H9jQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHQshl4O8s0A6MhFIZRht06id1CiZWcR227R+9bWdOysw7dxYb4 pHVafr3FFQQ6ra1nFt1lIxrxj4Xi79UrAOW/LIw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcHi7a1EwCwvXVk556gd13Dwx4DLsPTwjGBmcuIl5WjH3PPU1/XM9fhCK2blS/k8ciJqgWfZr6tObASbR07frI= X-Received: by 2002:a63:8a41:: with SMTP id y62-v6mr11033626pgd.291.1532032595062; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:36:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52042A54-5B70-4931-BA07-BA03C4DEDBB6@amazon.com> References: <52042A54-5B70-4931-BA07-BA03C4DEDBB6@amazon.com> From: Dick Hardt Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:36:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Richard Backman, Annabelle" Cc: Adam Dawes , "Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , ID Events Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009cf51705716022e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:36:41 -0000 --0000000000009cf51705716022e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In case there is any confusion, duplicating content is problematic in managing changes. It appears that the next step in honing the two docs had not occurred. On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle < richanna@amazon.com> wrote: > To some extent that duplication is deliberate. The HTTP Push draft was > created by starting from the combined draft and stripping out all > references to HTTP Poll, and vice-versa for the HTTP Poll draft. This was > done to minimize the risk of introducing unintentional normative changes > when splitting the draft. I=E2=80=99d originally intended these -00 draft= s to live > just long enough for the WG to confirm that they correctly reflect the > normative content of the original, at which point we could follow with > revisions to strip out unnecessary content (which I think there is much > of). Unfortunately I didn=E2=80=99t drive that process, so we=E2=80=99re = still sitting at > step 0. > > With that in mind, let=E2=80=99s talk about what is duplicated today, sec= tion by > section, in the context of HTTP Push since that=E2=80=99s what I=E2=80=99= m more familiar > with: > > 1. Introduction and Overview: > * The definitions section can be cut down to just the first sentence > stating that the document uses terms defined in RFC8417. > * The remaining text is either boilerplate, or text that is likely to be > similar across any specs covering SET distribution. > > 2. SET Event Stream Protocol > * 2.1 is almost entirely duplicated and can be completely removed. > - Possible exception around retention of acknowledged SETs, but I=E2=80= =99m not > convinced this should be normative. > * 2.2 is the core protocol definition and is effectively unique. > * 2.3 describes error reporting. I agree with Mike that we shouldn=E2=80= =99t be > duplicating SET error codes, and a registry should be defined. Further, I > think these error codes are applicable beyond just HTTP Push and Poll. > > 3. AuthN and AuthZ > * This is a lot of =E2=80=9Cfor example=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2= =80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. I think it can be > cut down to just the first sentence that states the spec depends on =E2= =80=9CTLS > and/or standard HTTP authentication and authorization schemes as per > RFC7235.=E2=80=9D > > 4. Security Considerations > * 4.1 says implementers should sign their SETs if they aren=E2=80=99t usi= ng a > secure transport. This advice applies to any SET distribution method. > * The rest of this section can be struck, possibly to be replaced with > references to appropriate BCPs. > > 5. Privacy Considerations > * Everything in this section applies to SETs in general, and therefore > does not belong in a distribution method spec. > > 6. IANA Considerations > * There are no IANA considerations. > > 7. References > * Yup, lots of duplication here. :) > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Adam Dawes ietf.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> The solution to the worry that people would have to implement both is to >> explicitly say in the single draft that a conforming implementation can >> implement pull, poll, or both. I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder = than that. >> > > I believe one of the other reasons for separating out the drafts now was > that the push spec was more mature and there was high demand for it with > RISC. Would it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and whe= n > two of the three sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for > ratification and then a branch of it with the third sections continues an= d > then when consensus of that is reached we seek ratification on the full > version? > > > > > > >> *From:* Id-event *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM >> *To:* Mike Jones >> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive >> Duplication >> >> >> >> There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what was minimally >> required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using the wrong words= . >> There was concern from implementors that they would have to implement bo= th >> "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementor= s >> only expected to implement one method. >> >> >> >> *if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are better than one, as >> you only have to read what you are implementing. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones >> wrote: >> >> We can=E2=80=99t require that everyone implement an RFC. Whether to do = so is >> always a choice. >> >> >> >> In the two RFCs case, even though neither would be required, one could >> contain all the common content and the other reference it. Some of that >> was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remo= ve >> duplication that had been present at one point. >> >> >> >> I agree with you that having to read a large set of documents is >> suboptimal. As I see it, one would be better than two, which would be >> better than three. >> >> >> >> -- Mike >> >> >> >> *From:* Dick Hardt >> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM >> *To:* Mike Jones >> *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive >> Duplication >> >> >> >> There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the docs is required >> to be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, and the other >> spec could refer to that content. >> >> >> >> Personally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to >> figure out how to do something. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones > com@dmarc..ietf.org > >> wrote: >> >> *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs* >> >> - Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated >> - Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines >> >> =C2=B7 572 of these lines are identical >> >> =C2=B7 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll >> >> *Problems with Duplication* >> >> =C2=B7 Not perfectly duplicated >> >> =C2=B7 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently appl= ied >> in several cases >> >> =C2=B7 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync >> >> =C2=B7 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional >> >> =C2=B7 Some normative data structures duplicated >> >> =C2=B7 For instance, error values defined twice >> >> =C2=B7 Will they be kept in sync? >> >> =C2=B7 Will they live in a common registry? >> >> =C2=B7 Which will be authoritative? >> >> *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable* >> >> =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for edit= ors >> >> =C2=B7 Manual steps to keep common text consistent >> >> =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers >> >> =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2= =80=99s different and >> try to understand why >> >> =C2=B7 Massive duplication will confuse implementers >> >> =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2= =80=99s different and >> try to understand why >> >> *Possible Solutions* >> >> =C2=B7 Move to three delivery specs >> >> =C2=B7 One for common pieces >> >> =C2=B7 One for only push-specific pieces >> >> =C2=B7 One for only poll-specific pieces >> >> =C2=B7 Move to one delivery spec >> >> =C2=B7 All text occurs only once >> >> =C2=B7 Push-specific pieces in one section >> >> =C2=B7 Poll-specific pieces in a different section >> >> =C2=B7 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional >> >> =C2=B7 *I believe this will be easier for all to understand* >> >> *Discussion* >> >> =C2=B7 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in dup= licated text >> until we solve the duplication problem >> >> =C2=B7 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice >> >> =C2=B7 Data gathering >> >> =C2=B7 Who has reviewed both specs? >> >> =C2=B7 What was your experience reviewing them? >> >> =C2=B7 How should we solve the duplication problem? >> >> =C2=B7 Should we have one or three specs? >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Id-event mailing list >> Id-event@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Id-event mailing list >> Id-event@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event >> > > > -- > Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410 > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > --0000000000009cf51705716022e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In case there is any confusion, duplicating content is pro= blematic in managing changes.=C2=A0

It appears that the = next step in honing the two docs had not occurred.=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at = 11:02 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>= wrote:
To some extent that duplication is deliberate. The HTTP Push draft was crea= ted by starting from the combined draft and stripping out all references to= HTTP Poll, and vice-versa for the HTTP Poll draft. This was done to minimi= ze the risk of introducing unintentional normative changes when splitting the draft. I=E2=80=99d originally intende= d these -00 drafts to live just long enough for the WG to confirm that they= correctly reflect the normative content of the original, at which point we= could follow with revisions to strip out unnecessary content (which I think there is much of). Unfortunately I didn= =E2=80=99t drive that process, so we=E2=80=99re still sitting at step 0.

With that in mind, let=E2=80=99s talk about what is duplicated today, = section by section, in the context of HTTP Push since that=E2=80=99s what I= =E2=80=99m more familiar with:

1. Introduction and Overview:
* The definitions section can be cut down to just the first sentence s= tating that the document uses terms defined in RFC8417.
* The remaining text is either boilerplate, or text that is likely to = be similar across any specs covering SET distribution.

2. SET Event Stream Protocol
* 2.1 is almost entirely duplicated and can be completely removed.
=C2=A0 - Possible exception around retention of acknowledged SETs, but= I=E2=80=99m not convinced this should be normative.
* 2.2 is the core protocol definition and is effectively unique.
* 2.3 describes error reporting. I agree with Mike that we shouldn=E2= =80=99t be duplicating SET error codes, and a registry should be defined. F= urther, I think these error codes are applicable beyond just HTTP Push and = Poll.

3. AuthN and AuthZ
* This is a lot of =E2=80=9Cfor example=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CSHOULD= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. I think it can be cut down to just the= first sentence that states the spec depends on =E2=80=9CTLS and/or standar= d HTTP authentication and authorization schemes as per RFC7235.=E2=80=9D

4. Security Considerations
* 4.1 says implementers should sign their SETs if they aren=E2=80=99t = using a secure transport. This advice applies to any SET distribution metho= d.
* The rest of this section can be struck, possibly to be replaced with= references to appropriate BCPs.

5. Privacy Considerations
* Everything in this section applies to SETs in general, and therefore= does not belong in a distribution method spec.

6. IANA Considerations
* There are no IANA considerations.

7. References
* Yup, lots of duplication here. :)

Sent from my iPad
=

On Jul 19, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Adam Dawes <adawes=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jon= es=3D40= microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The solution to the wo= rry that people would have to implement both is to explicitly say in the si= ngle draft that a conforming implementation can implement pull, poll, or bo= th.=C2=A0 I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder than that.


I believe one of the other reasons for separating out the drafts now w= as that the push spec was more mature and there was high demand for it with= RISC. Would it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and when= two of the three sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for ratification and then a branch of it= with the third sections continues and then when consensus of that is reach= ed we seek ratification on the full version?




=C2=A0

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about = what was minimally required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using= the wrong words. There was concern from implementors that they would have = to implement both "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementors only expected to i= mplement one method.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are= better than one, as you only have to read what you are implementing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@= microsoft.com> wrote:

We can=E2=80=99t requi= re that everyone implement an RFC.=C2=A0 Whether to do so is always a choic= e.

=C2=A0

In the two RFCs case, = even though neither would be required, one could contain all the common con= tent and the other reference it.=C2=A0 Some of that was done between JWS [R= FC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remove duplication that had been present at one point.=

=C2=A0

I agree with you that = having to read a large set of documents is suboptimal.=C2=A0 As I see it, o= ne would be better than two, which would be better than three.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of t= he docs is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that sp= ec, and the other spec could refer to that content.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Personally, I hate having to read a large set of dif= ferent documents to figure out how to do something.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org> wrote:=

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs

  • Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs = duplicated
  • Push source is 708 lin= es, poll is 984 lines

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 572 of these lines are identical<= /p>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll<= u>

Problems with Duplication

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Not perfectly duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently applied in sev= eral cases

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Some normative data structures duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 For instance, error values defined twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they be kept in sync?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they live in a common registry?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for editors

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Manual steps to keep common text consistent

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication will confuse implementers

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

Possible Solutions

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to three delivery specs

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for common pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only push-specific pieces=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only poll-specific pieces=

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to one delivery spec

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 All text occurs only once

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Push-specific pieces in one section

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Poll-specific pieces in a different section

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe this will be easier for all to understand=

Discussion

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in duplicated te= xt until we solve the duplication problem

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Data gathering

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Who has reviewed both specs?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 What was your experience reviewing them?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 How should we solve the duplication problem?

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Should we have one or three specs?

=C2=A0


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=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


--
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

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boundary="_000_DM5PR00MB0296DBA82B86243A5E94287BF5520DM5PR00MB0296namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8361f854-a1da-4a0a-a7f9-08d5edbaa846 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jul 2018 21:00:28.4304 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR00MB0342 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Preview of IETF 102 Poll-Based SET Delivery Presentation X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:00:33 -0000 --_000_DM5PR00MB0296DBA82B86243A5E94287BF5520DM5PR00MB0296namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FYI, Dick had requested that I clarify that my comments are the result of a= fresh review of the delivery specs in preparation for IETF 102. I wasn't = an editor of the precursor delivery spec and hadn't reviewed it in quite so= me time (focusing my energies instead on first finishing SET). The review = comments in my presentation (and on the list) are intended to prompt timely= discussion of the issues identified so that we can hopefully propose resol= utions to all of them tomorrow. See many of you then... -- Mike From: Id-event On Behalf Of Mike Jones Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 5:46 PM To: id-event@ietf.org Subject: [Id-event] Preview of IETF 102 Poll-Based SET Delivery Presentatio= n I wanted to share the contents of my presentation for this Friday's SecEven= t meeting on the Poll-Based SET Delivery draft in advance. You can view th= e whole presentation at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/= slides-102-secevent-poll-based-delivery-00. Given that some of the slides = discuss issues with the draft, I'll break each of those out into separate e= -mail messages to facilitate discussion of the individual issues. The rema= inder of this message and my subsequent messages are transcriptions from th= e slides. Note that while all the issues identified apply to the Poll spec, some also= apply to the Push spec, given the significant duplication between the two = drafts. I look forward to talking in person on Friday! -- Mike draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll Michael B. Jones IETF 102, Montreal July 2018 What is it? * Defines polling delivery mechanism for SETs * draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll is essentially draft-ietf-secevent-deli= very after deletion of push-based delivery specifics * draft-ietf-secevent-http-push is likewise essentially draft-ietf-s= ecevent-delivery after deletion of poll-based delivery specifics --_000_DM5PR00MB0296DBA82B86243A5E94287BF5520DM5PR00MB0296namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI, Dick had requeste= d that I clarify that my comments are the result of a fresh review of the d= elivery specs in preparation for IETF 102.  I wasn’t an editor o= f the precursor delivery spec and hadn’t reviewed it in quite some time (focusing my energies instead on first finishing SET= ).  The review comments in my presentation (and on the list) are inten= ded to prompt timely discussion of the issues identified so that we can hop= efully propose resolutions to all of them tomorrow.

 

See many of you then&#= 8230;

 

   &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p; -- Mike

 

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org&= gt; On Behalf Of Mike Jones
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 5:46 PM
To: id-event@ietf.org
Subject: [Id-event] Preview of IETF 102 Poll-Based SET Delivery Pres= entation

 

I wanted to share the contents of my presentation fo= r this Friday’s SecEvent meeting on the Poll-Based SET Delivery draft= in advance.  You can view the whole presentation at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-secevent-poll= -based-delivery-00.  Given that some of the slides discuss issues = with the draft, I’ll break each of those out into separate e-mail mes= sages to facilitate discussion of the individual issues.  The remainder of this message and my subsequent messages are= transcriptions from the slides.

 

Note that while all the issues identified apply to t= he Poll spec, some also apply to the Push spec, given the significant dupli= cation between the two drafts.

 

I look forward to talking in person on Friday!<= /o:p>

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        -- Mike

 

draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll

Michael B. Jones
IETF 102, Montreal
July 2018

 

What is it?

  • Defines polling d= elivery mechanism for SETs
  • draft-ietf-secevent-http-poll is essentially draft= -ietf-secevent-delivery after deletion of push-based delivery specifics
    • draft-ietf-seceve= nt-http-push is likewise essentially draft-ietf-secevent-delivery after del= etion of poll-based delivery specifics

 

 

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boundary="_000_DM5PR00MB02969AE9FFC1EC5C88C21EDBF5520DM5PR00MB0296namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1139c838-82ba-450d-2157-08d5edbbab51 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jul 2018 21:07:42.9790 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR00MB0423 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7o_cbte5_UYg for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x236.google.com (mail-ua0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2293130EE8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x236.google.com with SMTP id q12-v6so6330699ual.2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zB6fxS11Zc6psoGzBRjtRhAGz2HN+ndIqdZjrFbBg08=; b=dP8Fc0y3Jf4O1XRyXKx1D0KD0tE32v4kwb7xTWGiDAq5ZNqNWfogSgRx8Nk3nYjPAS 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeoP7W1Zo+qttROjIcfh41aB6XPxJWYw5QHP+nOUwaoHJVq+Q9M+EPFiMdGRB84xBdC7mqC213urH+WeeNyGH8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:234c:: with SMTP id h12-v6mr1616138uao.161.1532042143362; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab0:6383:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <52042A54-5B70-4931-BA07-BA03C4DEDBB6@amazon.com> From: William Denniss Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:15:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mike Jones Cc: Dick Hardt , "Richard Backman, Annabelle" , Adam Dawes , ID Events Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bd09510571625b8b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:16:05 -0000 --000000000000bd09510571625b8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I made a similar point at IETF 101 using the code flow / implicit flow analogy (recording, 19m8s in ). Som= etimes there are simply two valid ways to do something each with their own separate use-cases, just as code flow and implicit were designed for different use-cases. We have half the working group saying they want pull, and half wanting push, both with seemingly valid reasons that preclude using the other, which points to this being one such case for documenting two alternatives. It was the requirement on the group that one method be made MTI that ended up splitting the document (since neither option really fit the model for being MTI due to opposing use-cases). If the underlying requirement that one be made MTI goes away, then so would at least one reason to split the doc. Best, William On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Mike Jones < Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > Thanks, Dick. I wanted to add one other point to the list that you and I > discussed in person. > > > > There=E2=80=99s lots of precedents in RFCs for implementations being able= to > conform by implementing one or more options in the spec. For instance, i= n > the core OAuth spec [RFC 6749], one can conform by implementing either th= e > code flow or the implicit flow. In the OAuth Bearer spec, one can confor= m > by either sending access tokens using an Authorization header or in the > request body. > > > > Thus, there should be no problem in having a single delivery spec that on= e > can conform to by implementing either a push or poll method. This point > apparently wasn=E2=80=99t well known to working group members when the de= cision was > made to split the spec into two. > > > > -- Mike > > > > *From:* Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:36 PM > *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle > *Cc:* Adam Dawes ; Mike Jones < > Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; ID Events Mailing List > > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > In case there is any confusion, duplicating content is problematic in > managing changes. > > > > It appears that the next step in honing the two docs had not occurred. > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle < > richanna@amazon.com> wrote: > > To some extent that duplication is deliberate. The HTTP Push draft was > created by starting from the combined draft and stripping out all > references to HTTP Poll, and vice-versa for the HTTP Poll draft. This was > done to minimize the risk of introducing unintentional normative changes > when splitting the draft. I=E2=80=99d originally intended these -00 draft= s to live > just long enough for the WG to confirm that they correctly reflect the > normative content of the original, at which point we could follow with > revisions to strip out unnecessary content (which I think there is much > of). Unfortunately I didn=E2=80=99t drive that process, so we=E2=80=99re = still sitting at > step 0. > > > > With that in mind, let=E2=80=99s talk about what is duplicated today, sec= tion by > section, in the context of HTTP Push since that=E2=80=99s what I=E2=80=99= m more familiar > with: > > > > 1. Introduction and Overview: > > * The definitions section can be cut down to just the first sentence > stating that the document uses terms defined in RFC8417. > > * The remaining text is either boilerplate, or text that is likely to be > similar across any specs covering SET distribution. > > > > 2. SET Event Stream Protocol > > * 2.1 is almost entirely duplicated and can be completely removed. > > - Possible exception around retention of acknowledged SETs, but I=E2=80= =99m not > convinced this should be normative. > > * 2.2 is the core protocol definition and is effectively unique. > > * 2.3 describes error reporting. I agree with Mike that we shouldn=E2=80= =99t be > duplicating SET error codes, and a registry should be defined. Further, I > think these error codes are applicable beyond just HTTP Push and Poll. > > > > 3. AuthN and AuthZ > > * This is a lot of =E2=80=9Cfor example=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2= =80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. I think it can be > cut down to just the first sentence that states the spec depends on =E2= =80=9CTLS > and/or standard HTTP authentication and authorization schemes as per > RFC7235.=E2=80=9D > > > > 4. Security Considerations > > * 4.1 says implementers should sign their SETs if they aren=E2=80=99t usi= ng a > secure transport. This advice applies to any SET distribution method. > > * The rest of this section can be struck, possibly to be replaced with > references to appropriate BCPs. > > > > 5. Privacy Considerations > > * Everything in this section applies to SETs in general, and therefore > does not belong in a distribution method spec. > > > > 6. IANA Considerations > > * There are no IANA considerations. > > > > 7. References > > * Yup, lots of duplication here. :) > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Adam Dawes ietf.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > The solution to the worry that people would have to implement both is to > explicitly say in the single draft that a conforming implementation can > implement pull, poll, or both. I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder t= han that. > > > > I believe one of the other reasons for separating out the drafts now was > that the push spec was more mature and there was high demand for it with > RISC. Would it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and whe= n > two of the three sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for > ratification and then a branch of it with the third sections continues an= d > then when consensus of that is reached we seek ratification on the full > version? > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Id-event *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what was minimally > required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using the wrong words. > There was concern from implementors that they would have to implement bot= h > "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and many implementors > only expected to implement one method. > > > > *if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are better than one, as > you only have to read what you are implementing. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > > We can=E2=80=99t require that everyone implement an RFC. Whether to do s= o is > always a choice. > > > > In the two RFCs case, even though neither would be required, one could > contain all the common content and the other reference it. Some of that > was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remov= e > duplication that had been present at one point. > > > > I agree with you that having to read a large set of documents is > suboptimal. As I see it, one would be better than two, which would be > better than three. > > > > -- Mike > > > > *From:* Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive > Duplication > > > > There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of the docs is required t= o > be implemented, then the content could be in that spec, and the other spe= c > could refer to that content. > > > > Personally, I hate having to read a large set of different documents to > figure out how to do something. > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones com@dmarc..ietf.org > wro= te: > > *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs* > > - Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated > - Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines > > =C2=B7 572 of these lines are identical > > =C2=B7 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll > > *Problems with Duplication* > > =C2=B7 Not perfectly duplicated > > =C2=B7 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently appli= ed in > several cases > > =C2=B7 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync > > =C2=B7 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional > > =C2=B7 Some normative data structures duplicated > > =C2=B7 For instance, error values defined twice > > =C2=B7 Will they be kept in sync? > > =C2=B7 Will they live in a common registry? > > =C2=B7 Which will be authoritative? > > *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable* > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for edito= rs > > =C2=B7 Manual steps to keep common text consistent > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > =C2=B7 Massive duplication will confuse implementers > > =C2=B7 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80= =99s different and > try to understand why > > *Possible Solutions* > > =C2=B7 Move to three delivery specs > > =C2=B7 One for common pieces > > =C2=B7 One for only push-specific pieces > > =C2=B7 One for only poll-specific pieces > > =C2=B7 Move to one delivery spec > > =C2=B7 All text occurs only once > > =C2=B7 Push-specific pieces in one section > > =C2=B7 Poll-specific pieces in a different section > > =C2=B7 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional > > =C2=B7 *I believe this will be easier for all to understand* > > *Discussion* > > =C2=B7 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in dupl= icated text > until we solve the duplication problem > > =C2=B7 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice > > =C2=B7 Data gathering > > =C2=B7 Who has reviewed both specs? > > =C2=B7 What was your experience reviewing them? > > =C2=B7 How should we solve the duplication problem? > > =C2=B7 Should we have one or three specs? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > > > -- > > Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager | adawes@google.com | +1 650-214-2410 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > --000000000000bd09510571625b8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I made a similar point at IETF 101 using the code flow / implicit= flow analogy (recording, 19m8s in).=C2=A0Sometimes the= re are simply two valid ways to do something each with their own separate u= se-cases, just as code flow and implicit were designed for different use-ca= ses. We have half the working group saying they want pull, and half wanting= push, both with seemingly valid reasons that preclude using the other, whi= ch points to this being one such case for documenting two alternatives.

It was the requirement on the group that one method be made MTI th= at ended up splitting the document (since neither option really fit the mod= el for being MTI due to opposing use-cases). If the underlying requirement = that one be made MTI goes away, then so would at least one reason to split = the doc.

Best,
William



On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 = at 2:07 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40mic= rosoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Thanks, Dick.=C2=A0 I = wanted to add one other point to the list that you and I discussed in perso= n.

=C2=A0

There=E2=80=99s lots o= f precedents in RFCs for implementations being able to conform by implement= ing one or more options in the spec.=C2=A0 For instance, in the core OAuth = spec [RFC 6749], one can conform by implementing either the code flow or the implicit flow.=C2=A0 In the OAuth Bearer spec,= one can conform by either sending access tokens using an Authorization hea= der or in the request body.

=C2=A0

Thus, there should be = no problem in having a single delivery spec that one can conform to by impl= ementing either a push or poll method.=C2=A0 This point apparently wasn=E2= =80=99t well known to working group members when the decision was made to split the spec into two.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Richard Backman, Annabelle <richanna@amazon.com>
Cc: Adam Dawes <adawes@google.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; = ID Events Mailing List <id-event@ietf.org>


Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

In case there is any confusion, duplicating content = is problematic in managing changes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It appears that the next step in honing the two docs= had not occurred.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Richard Backman, A= nnabelle <richa= nna@amazon.com> wrote:

To some extent that duplication is deliberate. The H= TTP Push draft was created by starting from the combined draft and strippin= g out all references to HTTP Poll, and vice-versa for the HTTP Poll draft. = This was done to minimize the risk of introducing unintentional normative changes when splitting the draft. I= =E2=80=99d originally intended these -00 drafts to live just long enough fo= r the WG to confirm that they correctly reflect the normative content of th= e original, at which point we could follow with revisions to strip out unnecessary content (which I think there is mu= ch of). Unfortunately I didn=E2=80=99t drive that process, so we=E2=80=99re= still sitting at step 0.

=C2=A0

With that in mind, let=E2=80=99s talk about what is = duplicated today, section by section, in the context of HTTP Push since tha= t=E2=80=99s what I=E2=80=99m more familiar with:

=C2=A0

1. Introduction and Overview:

* The definitions section can be cut down to just th= e first sentence stating that the document uses terms defined in RFC8417.

* The remaining text is either boilerplate, or text = that is likely to be similar across any specs covering SET distribution.=

=C2=A0

2. SET Event Stream Protocol

* 2.1 is almost entirely duplicated and can be compl= etely removed.

=C2=A0 - Possible exception around retention of ackn= owledged SETs, but I=E2=80=99m not convinced this should be normative.

* 2.2 is the core protocol definition and is effecti= vely unique.

* 2.3 describes error reporting. I agree with Mike t= hat we shouldn=E2=80=99t be duplicating SET error codes, and a registry sho= uld be defined. Further, I think these error codes are applicable beyond ju= st HTTP Push and Poll.

=C2=A0

3. AuthN and AuthZ

* This is a lot of =E2=80=9Cfor example=E2=80=9D and= =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. I think it can be cut = down to just the first sentence that states the spec depends on =E2=80=9CTL= S and/or standard HTTP authentication and authorization schemes as per RFC7= 235.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

4. Security Considerations

* 4.1 says implementers should sign their SETs if th= ey aren=E2=80=99t using a secure transport. This advice applies to any SET = distribution method.

* The rest of this section can be struck, possibly t= o be replaced with references to appropriate BCPs.

=C2=A0

5. Privacy Considerations

* Everything in this section applies to SETs in gene= ral, and therefore does not belong in a distribution method spec.=

=C2=A0

6. IANA Considerations

* There are no IANA considerations.

=C2=A0

7. References

* Yup, lots of duplication here. :)

=C2=A0

Sent from my iPad


On Jul 19, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Adam Dawes <adawes=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones <Micha= el.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

The solution to the wo= rry that people would have to implement both is to explicitly say in the si= ngle draft that a conforming implementation can implement pull, poll, or both.=C2=A0 I doesn=E2=80=99t have to be any harder than th= at.

=C2=A0

I believe one of the other reasons for separating ou= t the drafts now was that the push spec was more mature and there was high = demand for it with RISC. Would it be reasonable to have one spec with three sections and when two of the three sections have = WG consensus we cut a draft of it for ratification and then a branch of it = with the third sections continues and then when consensus of that is reache= d we seek ratification on the full version?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about = what was minimally required to implement to be compliant. I am likely using= the wrong words. There was concern from implementors that they would have to implement both "push" and "poll&quo= t; if both are in the same document, and many implementors only expected to= implement one method.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are= better than one, as you only have to read what you are implementing.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@= microsoft.com> wrote:

We can=E2=80=99t requi= re that everyone implement an RFC.=C2=A0 Whether to do so is always a choic= e.

=C2=A0

In the two RFCs case, = even though neither would be required, one could contain all the common con= tent and the other reference it.=C2=A0 Some of that was done between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for example, to remove duplicat= ion that had been present at one point.

=C2=A0

I agree with you that = having to read a large set of documents is suboptimal.=C2=A0 As I see it, o= ne would be better than two, which would be better than three.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: id-event@= ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive= Duplication

=C2=A0

There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of t= he docs is required to be implemented, then the content could be in that sp= ec, and the other spec could refer to that content.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Personally, I hate having to read a large set of dif= ferent documents to figure out how to do something.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org> wrote:=

Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs

  • Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both specs duplicated=
  • Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 572 of these lines are identical

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll

Problems with Duplication

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Not perfectly duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Edits to common text have already been inconsistently applied in sev= eral cases

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some normative data structures duplicated

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For instance, error values defined twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they be kept in sync?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Will they live in a common registry?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Which will be authoritative?

Assertion: Current Organization Untenable<= /u>

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates consistency nightmare for editors

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Manual steps to keep common text consistent

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication creates significant work for reviewers

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Massive duplication will confuse implementers

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Having to figure out what=E2=80=99s the same and what=E2=80=99s diff= erent and try to understand why

Possible Solutions

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to three delivery specs

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for common pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only push-specific pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One for only poll-specific pieces

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Move to one delivery spec

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 All text occurs only once

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Push-specific pieces in one section

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Poll-specific pieces in a different section

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I believe this will be easier for all to understand=

Discussion

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As an editor, I=E2=80=99m not prone to fix problems in duplicated te= xt until we solve the duplication problem

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data gathering

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Who has reviewed both specs?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What was your experience reviewing them?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 How should we solve the duplication problem?

=C2=B7=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Should we have one or three specs?

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Id-event mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________=
Id-event mailing list
Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event


=C2=A0

--

Adam Dawes=C2=A0|=C2=A0Sr. Product Manager=C2=A0|=C2=A0adawe= s@google.com=C2=A0|=C2=A0+1 650-214-2410

=C2=A0

_________________________= ______________________
Id-event mailing list
Id-event@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event

=C2=A0


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([2001:67c:370:128:97e:e83c:b96e:a5b4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t191-v6sm144840ita.28.2018.07.19.16.52.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:52:57 -0700 (PDT) To: William Denniss , Mike Jones Cc: Adam Dawes , "Richard Backman, Annabelle" , ID Events Mailing List , Dick Hardt References: <52042A54-5B70-4931-BA07-BA03C4DEDBB6@amazon.com> From: Yaron Sheffer Message-ID: <78a4b5db-6866-9aa2-83f1-913b9b40c686@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:52:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: Massive Duplication X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:53:03 -0000 The working group decided in London that neither of the Delivery methods is MTI. People can implement either one or both, and still be compliant. However I think that the other reason to keep the drafts separate is still valid: one method is much more mature than the other. Thanks, Yaron On 19/07/18 19:15, William Denniss wrote: > I made a similar point at IETF 101 using the code flow / implicit flow > analogy (recording, 19m8s in ). > Sometimes there are simply two valid ways to do something each with > their own separate use-cases, just as code flow and implicit were > designed for different use-cases. We have half the working group saying > they want pull, and half wanting push, both with seemingly valid reasons > that preclude using the other, which points to this being one such case > for documenting two alternatives. > > It was the requirement on the group that one method be made MTI that > ended up splitting the document (since neither option really fit the > model for being MTI due to opposing use-cases). If the underlying > requirement that one be made MTI goes away, then so would at least one > reason to split the doc. > > Best, > William > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Mike Jones > > wrote: > > Thanks, Dick.  I wanted to add one other point to the list that you > and I discussed in person.____ > > __ __ > > There’s lots of precedents in RFCs for implementations being able to > conform by implementing one or more options in the spec.  For > instance, in the core OAuth spec [RFC 6749], one can conform by > implementing either the code flow or the implicit flow.  In the > OAuth Bearer spec, one can conform by either sending access tokens > using an Authorization header or in the request body.____ > > __ __ > > Thus, there should be no problem in having a single delivery spec > that one can conform to by implementing either a push or poll > method.  This point apparently wasn’t well known to working group > members when the decision was made to split the spec into two.____ > > __ __ > >                          -- Mike____ > > __ __ > > *From:* Dick Hardt > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:36 PM > *To:* Richard Backman, Annabelle > > *Cc:* Adam Dawes >; > Mike Jones >; ID Events Mailing List > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push Specs: > Massive Duplication____ > > __ __ > > In case there is any confusion, duplicating content is problematic > in managing changes. ____ > > __ __ > > It appears that the next step in honing the two docs had not > occurred. ____ > > __ __ > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Richard Backman, Annabelle > > wrote:____ > > To some extent that duplication is deliberate. The HTTP Push > draft was created by starting from the combined draft and > stripping out all references to HTTP Poll, and vice-versa for > the HTTP Poll draft. This was done to minimize the risk of > introducing unintentional normative changes when splitting the > draft. I’d originally intended these -00 drafts to live just > long enough for the WG to confirm that they correctly reflect > the normative content of the original, at which point we could > follow with revisions to strip out unnecessary content (which I > think there is much of). Unfortunately I didn’t drive that > process, so we’re still sitting at step 0. ____ > > __ __ > > With that in mind, let’s talk about what is duplicated today, > section by section, in the context of HTTP Push since that’s > what I’m more familiar with:____ > > __ __ > > 1. Introduction and Overview:____ > > * The definitions section can be cut down to just the first > sentence stating that the document uses terms defined in > RFC8417.____ > > * The remaining text is either boilerplate, or text that is > likely to be similar across any specs covering SET distribution.____ > > __ __ > > 2. SET Event Stream Protocol____ > > * 2.1 is almost entirely duplicated and can be completely > removed.____ > >   - Possible exception around retention of acknowledged SETs, > but I’m not convinced this should be normative.____ > > * 2.2 is the core protocol definition and is effectively unique.____ > > * 2.3 describes error reporting. I agree with Mike that we > shouldn’t be duplicating SET error codes, and a registry should > be defined. Further, I think these error codes are applicable > beyond just HTTP Push and Poll.____ > > __ __ > > 3. AuthN and AuthZ____ > > * This is a lot of “for example” and “SHOULD” and “MAY”. I think > it can be cut down to just the first sentence that states the > spec depends on “TLS and/or standard HTTP authentication and > authorization schemes as per RFC7235.”____ > > __ __ > > 4. Security Considerations____ > > * 4.1 says implementers should sign their SETs if they aren’t > using a secure transport. This advice applies to any SET > distribution method.____ > > * The rest of this section can be struck, possibly to be > replaced with references to appropriate BCPs.____ > > __ __ > > 5. Privacy Considerations____ > > * Everything in this section applies to SETs in general, and > therefore does not belong in a distribution method spec.____ > > __ __ > > 6. IANA Considerations____ > > * There are no IANA considerations.____ > > __ __ > > 7. References____ > > * Yup, lots of duplication here. :)____ > > __ __ > > Sent from my iPad____ > > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 1:39 AM, Adam Dawes > > wrote:____ > > __ __ > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 4:18 PM Mike Jones > > wrote:____ > > The solution to the worry that people would have to > implement both is to explicitly say in the single draft > that a conforming implementation can implement pull, > poll, or both.  I doesn’t have to be any harder than > that.____ > > __ __ > > I believe one of the other reasons for separating out the > drafts now was that the push spec was more mature and there > was high demand for it with RISC. Would it be reasonable to > have one spec with three sections and when two of the three > sections have WG consensus we cut a draft of it for > ratification and then a branch of it with the third sections > continues and then when consensus of that is reached we seek > ratification on the full version?____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > ____ > > *From:* Id-event > *On Behalf Of *Dick > Hardt > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 7:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and Push > Specs: Massive Duplication____ > > ____ > > There is an acronym I am forgetting that said about what > was minimally required to implement to be compliant. I > am likely using the wrong words. There was concern from > implementors that they would have to implement both > "push" and "poll" if both are in the same document, and > many implementors only expected to implement one method. > ____ > > ____ > > *if* one is only implementing one, then two docs are > better than one, as you only have to read what you are > implementing.____ > > ____ > > ____ > > ____ > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Jones > > wrote:____ > > We can’t require that everyone implement an RFC. > Whether to do so is always a choice.____ > > ____ > > In the two RFCs case, even though neither would be > required, one could contain all the common content > and the other reference it.  Some of that was done > between JWS [RFC 7515] and JWE [RFC 7516], for > example, to remove duplication that had been present > at one point.____ > > ____ > > I agree with you that having to read a large set of > documents is suboptimal.  As I see it, one would be > better than two, which would be better than three.____ > > ____ > >                          -- Mike____ > > ____ > > *From:* Dick Hardt > > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 18, 2018 6:00 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > > *Cc:* id-event@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Id-event] Issue Shared by Poll and > Push Specs: Massive Duplication____ > > ____ > > There is also the choice of 2 documents. If one of > the docs is required to be implemented, then the > content could be in that spec, and the other spec > could refer to that content. ____ > > ____ > > Personally, I hate having to read a large set of > different documents to figure out how to do > something.____ > > ____ > > ____ > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Mike Jones > > > wrote:____ > > *Massive Duplication Across Poll and Push Specs*____ > > * Content of 6 of 7 top-level sections in both > specs duplicated____ > * Push source is 708 lines, poll is 984 lines ____ > > ·572 of these lines are identical____ > > ·81% identical for push, 58% identical for poll____ > > *Problems with Duplication*____ > > ·Not perfectly duplicated ____ > > ·Edits to common text have already been > inconsistently applied in several cases____ > > ·Requires manual editor actions to keep in sync____ > > ·Sometimes unclear which divergences intentional____ > > ·Some normative data structures duplicated ____ > > ·For instance, error values defined twice____ > > ·Will they be kept in sync?____ > > ·Will they live in a common registry?____ > > ·Which will be authoritative?____ > > *Assertion: Current Organization Untenable*____ > > ·Massive duplication creates consistency > nightmare for editors ____ > > ·Manual steps to keep common text consistent____ > > ·Massive duplication creates significant work > for reviewers ____ > > ·Having to figure out what’s the same and what’s > different and try to understand why____ > > ·Massive duplication will confuse implementers ____ > > ·Having to figure out what’s the same and what’s > different and try to understand why____ > > *Possible Solutions*____ > > ·Move to three delivery specs ____ > > ·One for common pieces____ > > ·One for only push-specific pieces____ > > ·One for only poll-specific pieces____ > > ·Move to one delivery spec ____ > > ·All text occurs only once____ > > ·Push-specific pieces in one section____ > > ·Poll-specific pieces in a different section____ > > ·Note: Both mechanisms could still be optional____ > > ·/I believe this will be easier for all to > understand/____ > > *Discussion*____ > > ·As an editor, I’m not prone to fix problems in > duplicated text until we solve the duplication > problem ____ > > ·Unreasonable to ask us to do everything twice____ > > ·Data gathering ____ > > ·Who has reviewed both specs?____ > > ·What was your experience reviewing them?____ > > ·How should we solve the duplication problem? ____ > > ·Should we have one or three specs?____ > > ____ > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > ____ > > ____ > > ____ > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > ____ > > > ____ > > __ __ > > -- ____ > > Adam Dawes | Sr. Product Manager |adawes@google.com >  |+1 650-214-2410____ > > __ __ > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > ____ > > __ __ > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Id-event mailing list > Id-event@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id-event > From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:05:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C06C130E16 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YplxqnJYJbwE for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x231.google.com (mail-pl0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 845B11310FB for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x231.google.com with SMTP id m16-v6so5504285pls.11 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=blwWR683XxcRTcxAt7ZhkO7CHWZ3vzlbvJrmD0gObp8=; b=suIWaT6l8esojW6Cu5Ab5RY1wJNQ3gyd8NJbH9eoutwZuSgFE6VAfOyvSx/9R/Yb3z LSQvF5t6Vl6HLE0CA9Exf9zBOO39n8QPKaKFzjYz2KzbUBn1MEc7kvxytFxgpYyWEh5r pN3WeJVe0Gf5jBcg4jJc0qsJ/z03oyNFo2/NJMc8RZK9uC0iBnNtRGS/WnYioux3mx2H t9dgREeW+HtBJjP8raomzZghs9HIsMmTgGmMoXyZHLSzU2q+zvS3PFnMRibhCOZr2u4Z Qo+RlCtUJi3NFjABaMJDMgrGnZsJm2A81h9IPB3hCT51qRfUI3V7Ve2Rok/S33U3dmxy MgJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=blwWR683XxcRTcxAt7ZhkO7CHWZ3vzlbvJrmD0gObp8=; b=SSwCtsLitojwS82gWC8IayoUU7hruZgPU55VUfhBCM+PidKE92FBu/h1HwTVWmFMgT nnJWL3IVomn1GISwYriFJKvanxVNFv7OMm/haZUn1ap59zHlZrWR2GV7m8AkSLLEsgf+ hiMg60gCdkbof/y6i/Va1fXEN2jKLxPrzrQim60N9sfmoyPRdh8hUOCfCVjEZziFEGV3 HVF9rbMRRiaQg/a2q58jX+ZJBYemRHHWdhaKQ4+92/a0O2I60W4mc1bhvVsqJdQRLssg dneoaOwPa/nTNm74wBPS3+Oi5wSkukUqmubVXIcgjBPALBWJW4zzKclSVfQHUdVRiy+P oTEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlElvt+z1IxUJ06tDEGHCDEh5wOp4lLFE98n7/j1e8+uCMfQTRP3 9RvGueVVj0jB0tw8yvTqSHhX6gtjoguEKbhVxcDOI9qvF8M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpebMBTIyUlzlCA7sVyrTlc/ph8pB37vxf8MK7K5QE5qKJkKaKTQyNgR4yZ3JLVXZpHXMPOO8i4E9mNdueF3xQQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8c84:: with SMTP id t4-v6mr3125147plo.100.1532109909806; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Dick Hardt Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:04:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: SecEvent Cc: Yaron Sheffer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee54bc0571722248" Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:05:13 -0000 --000000000000ee54bc0571722248 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" At the end of our meeting today (technically, after we concluded) we talked about having an Interim meeting where we would review revised drafts of the 3 WG documents. To assist in optimizing attendance, here is a Doodle poll for a meeting sometime in early October. https://doodle.com/poll/tzvsqri49h6g4f4g Please respond by the end of next week (July 27) /Dick --000000000000ee54bc0571722248 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= /Dick=C2=A0
--000000000000ee54bc0571722248-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:25:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6E1130F63 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.009 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.009 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XLhauqt_QxSW for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam06on0114.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.53.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9CAF130FFA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:25:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=ZyRC9QnNY4ySoMRlk9ACp/djLG3w+Fk6dBRvIwQMFME=; b=IdcLm0V2UCawClXefoBzfcVfLJWNHMRDsq6Znc+DR2o4+HIyjKUQiVUheaAq8Sw7gb86vbAgCf4ZBy5nSsOxM6pl9XOfIM0BzsBV23ABp/klOFDKELuXw5La0c3Rv8bkUTV/Gx1pf9NFtD6N9WC/wuZMcSiCt30kjSr/nUizGvw= Received: from MW2PR00MB0300.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (52.132.148.31) by MW2PR00MB0426.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (52.132.149.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1018.0; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:25:30 +0000 Received: from MW2PR00MB0300.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::75b7:1894:dd72:4ede]) by MW2PR00MB0300.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::75b7:1894:dd72:4ede%9]) with mapi id 15.20.1019.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:25:30 +0000 From: Mike Jones To: Dick Hardt , SecEvent CC: Yaron Sheffer Thread-Topic: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting Thread-Index: AQHUIFQ6OGDdA1T+9E6dQO/ODG3zw6SYbSzA Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:25:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [65.38.93.2] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:42:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBA3130DF1 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:42:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nofMrGPgLWdN for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90C88129385 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id v13-v6so7569698pgr.10 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=63jE7LsCXOs16/WfOuHUiFN2o+WPWNbHOT0c3/Q+ztc=; b=hW3Q6jhLQVVwZyzq1Y6SLYMJu6T1Y2sHo6o6LWge7P4NpQLHPKUrlmFSmZMAB2A+gb zI4Y96DpVvdHPM5c9Rr238ipJj+XK1Dx1wAuQqKA6q9UyhJWqMhl24hvGPKLSzzqBGpL gVkgqVZPHAM/dIvmlHORGaOmf+Bvu5+xbfLsQAU/g0G5HvJTyEZAo9kG2Z7sa/POfboh ybVTDM36WHqDUsKvDHncxFBJKAcgwx8joTnEtHkUrTXhMMpZpL0iIkkqkPEyNWhrxOuv oLz0iurrsQVR4LoGxwonhPxx+nlNIqa7ybEDK0o5e15kD2IkaIOjL13ix3IoCi1PNEHM g0PA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; 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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:42:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: Mike Jones Cc: SecEvent , Yaron Sheffer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000921d65057172a8bf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:42:35 -0000 --000000000000921d65057172a8bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mike. I forgot the FIDO meeting was then. But that is why we do a Doodle! On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Mike Jones wrote: > I replied to the Doodle poll. FYI, the week of October 8th doesn=E2=80= =99t work > for many of us because of the FIDO plenary meeting that week in Singapore= . > > > > -- Mike > > > > *From:* Id-event *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt > *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2018 2:05 PM > *To:* SecEvent > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > *Subject:* [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting > > > > At the end of our meeting today (technically, after we concluded) we > talked about having an Interim meeting where we would review revised draf= ts > of the 3 WG documents. > > > > To assist in optimizing attendance, here is a Doodle poll for a meeting > sometime in early October. > > > > https://doodle.com/poll/tzvsqri49h6g4f4g > > > > Please respond by the end of next week (July 27) > > > > /Dick > --000000000000921d65057172a8bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Mike. I forgot the FIDO meeting was then. But that = is why we do a Doodle!

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Mike Jones &l= t;Michael.= Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

I replied to the Doodl= e poll.=C2=A0 FYI, the week of October 8th doesn=E2=80=99t work = for many of us because of the FIDO plenary meeting that week in Singapore.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 2:05 PM
To: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting

=C2=A0

At the end of our meeting today (technically, after = we concluded) we talked about having an Interim meeting where we would revi= ew revised drafts of the 3 WG documents.

=C2=A0

To assist in optimizing attendance, here is a Doodle= poll for a meeting sometime in early October.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Please respond by the end of next week (July 27)<= /u>

=C2=A0

/Dick=C2=A0


--000000000000921d65057172a8bf-- From nobody Tue Jul 24 13:23:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F12130DE4 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:23:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sdvomSC2SdfZ for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x531.google.com (mail-pg1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90A5A130DD9 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x531.google.com with SMTP id y4-v6so3651724pgp.9 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Rh0EMKbqXI5eSQnzAeE8dCZCSisf3dM0oYhobPTu3wI=; b=XuW3oOTOlYURlcOuCBuR7WvqIqp72+D66mQBY19fQfK0yX+QI3JfPMwk8s4KdxNqYR FmadkDg+eW+PucblWnpBEnN9Y7WS8oXLKbFWNWl+SoLIN3DZMzfOd+tKsJUjEcmcIF4p CdKV6+038PCej3s/lyl/h24+We3v9SI5mXOo4ssfWZ9ZufRDkMl2OA1u34u4rR5zi7yZ xv4kmv7IbcZ46F0R171Yirk0vmHv1h+EzytUeXZPZXReMSWcf1HDS25MISaN8l0H7rrY 1mL9qOsKbS4fZiTHYEKk9hkR4e5y9Frr4MTPotXG/fopkQCAbrG2TIf2yP9sLcJKnsbq +sBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Rh0EMKbqXI5eSQnzAeE8dCZCSisf3dM0oYhobPTu3wI=; b=qqX0mccddmY+BACrHHPs2lYNfZGa3cJna6j4VjYLBySVffls/C4LM4eILsB6el0rB8 xBzo6YLjZ3L0muZQ8Prw1j/nbJGg49uAySNH0WEBvNitUmfLBsy/RuwwOu0NFHiMvEhz CCmIdyiA/vbfAW44NQ19jK3vTmOvt5B3qotkpazcLuYlV7Zl5IuDacMJlnGlVgKezRQY nl0o6bN8RB9oiImwZFpS64YkpCr9qTEecLV94cY2Q/snfXcLLaWJreJQlC+IZrUbYUNu 54h8gFO0DG9nzR2j17BIud3TbCJGMjmSdkywF0u4MCUdBOXJmnRf513RsnRbpZ1dPxJD 2rdg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHnTB9IVd3Z0RBTZ83Z//W9VYoHxGD1DybbjVP0L1qdxolkCTAO Z5OevcalL5mhecw1Eiccxc61c0LIovvfVHr7nYY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeTiiHTnGUgmeUTjF/IPrWluu1LlGDUBEsgeUJKnnA4dAn3hidJTX0DZW2nM5gccAtE/F26mLB7OR2kluAg374= X-Received: by 2002:a63:a347:: with SMTP id v7-v6mr17219863pgn.182.1532463785065; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:23:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9ce:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:22:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Dick Hardt Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:22:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mike Jones Cc: SecEvent , Yaron Sheffer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a428a0571c4870a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:23:10 -0000 --0000000000008a428a0571c4870a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reminder to respond to the Doodle https://doodle.com/poll/tzvsqri49h6g4f4g If you don't vote, no complaining if the timing does not work! :) On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Dick Hardt wrote: > Thanks Mike. I forgot the FIDO meeting was then. But that is why we do a > Doodle! > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > >> I replied to the Doodle poll. FYI, the week of October 8th doesn=E2=80= =99t work >> for many of us because of the FIDO plenary meeting that week in Singapor= e. >> >> >> >> -- Mike >> >> >> >> *From:* Id-event *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt >> *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2018 2:05 PM >> *To:* SecEvent >> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer >> *Subject:* [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting >> >> >> >> At the end of our meeting today (technically, after we concluded) we >> talked about having an Interim meeting where we would review revised dra= fts >> of the 3 WG documents. >> >> >> >> To assist in optimizing attendance, here is a Doodle poll for a meeting >> sometime in early October. >> >> >> >> https://doodle.com/poll/tzvsqri49h6g4f4g >> >> >> >> Please respond by the end of next week (July 27) >> >> >> >> /Dick >> > > --0000000000008a428a0571c4870a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reminder to respond to the Doodle


If you don't vote, no complaining if the timing does not work! :)

On Fri, J= ul 20, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Mike. I = forgot the FIDO meeting was then. But that is why we do a Doodle!

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 2:25 PM, Mike Jones <= Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

I replied to the Doodl= e poll.=C2=A0 FYI, the week of October 8th doesn=E2=80=99t work = for many of us because of the FIDO plenary meeting that week in Singapore.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -- Mike

=C2=A0

From: Id-event <id-event-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 2:05 PM
To: SecEvent <id-event@ietf.org>
Cc: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: [Id-event] Virtual Interim SecEvent meeting

=C2=A0

At the end of our meeting today (technically, after = we concluded) we talked about having an Interim meeting where we would revi= ew revised drafts of the 3 WG documents.

=C2=A0

To assist in optimizing attendance, here is a Doodle= poll for a meeting sometime in early October.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Please respond by the end of next week (July 27)<= /u>

=C2=A0

/Dick=C2=A0



--0000000000008a428a0571c4870a-- From nobody Tue Jul 31 14:32:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: id-event@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DAD130E29 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iRqse6lwzUC8 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819DE130E6D for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id a3-v6so18079672wrt.2 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=t9v9o3FCHohvPPE3t4ZGQB4IbG52DAZW0YCsI3lUSj4=; b=bwCH81K5YcLUvH5/4ntoDksaaihfYf22qeDHvXO1Ggc+/ZkmNw/sJ4MyYWrl6ioQa0 FQkJqk89qMF8c7d3rX48ZbkUHuwmm2lSR2kanPShKJ5UJQtH6PNJ48oRs6FuffM+0b3K bkCMm8WTS1t3E0TfnIhjH0aYMWMAt1s7NE1azc3oKW8gCb3clilJ3uhN7ADJxww9ChKh Lz7V99G7ucFcGIOFQ9DCfqx8xRchllpKa3yjZCbFM0FZnUDjpicJdFab3GBzsvO2j/Gh i2dUnqSjlGSFkoRojCeSztRZ8G4LCvRfv8V7PwE2dyBkV95mLyk0QuAcUL6dZdjzbo8E RKiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=t9v9o3FCHohvPPE3t4ZGQB4IbG52DAZW0YCsI3lUSj4=; b=NSfs1sCMqfoMogS1kfgpvpjnG81aPVkZLJYqR7r+sHSfTXa5+cYB+aaf6QxqCR+gge JGzNqK8dJBZtGu86HTCOg/fb/Kib1NZPsTNzSqGCaF9Yz+aB2o/UGx7vEQojF5FodCe+ m1wB/EWd8GI3PcAEQ0HX8HFCej1VIQPRSYag69+SMePHFDiaEa5FurxJUr4ItY8FS/Gd XtcBUTrfgMbFD+hiAiG0NnRLfap0beWtANKmouD3e+zSfNeN65ekZ2P6BshNJHB6ha+G JwcZl3YmfW3gW9RDIUV7eoNYv1FGUfU64AepCLWJzMJBBynxEhC4Px3LA+AmiQEP/4CD A8Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFfpLBLLTaK0+5VwPgFY2w64QZo1erEh0dMi5Ceh75OEmi1NVDZ LgJplzutPlwTDqtqdimNbrLjap3b X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfqe7qXOjgcvFxfeQ4LfEv/OKrTSJRt0SemUgzsKBjRNCOZrii7Bkamp/wXdhyjK5dOTku6Ug== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:69ca:: with SMTP id s10-v6mr21251536wrw.77.1533072750811; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.145] (bzq-79-177-39-180.red.bezeqint.net. [79.177.39.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z8-v6sm28086552wrp.54.2018.07.31.14.32.29 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Jul 2018 14:32:29 -0700 (PDT) To: SecEvent From: Yaron Sheffer Message-ID: <5beafce9-84e4-9390-37a3-d4363a3de40f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 00:32:25 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Id-event] Montreal meeting minutes X-BeenThere: id-event@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: "A mailing list to discuss the potential solution for a common identity event messaging format and distribution system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:32:35 -0000 I have uploaded the minutes here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-secevent-00 Please let us know if anything is missing or incorrect. And thank you Justin! Best,     Yaron

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
This is our wo= rking group's first RFC, and the foundation of the
solution we are working on. Congratulations to us all, and a big thank
you to the authors!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: [Id-event] RFC 8417 on Security Event Token (SET)
Date: Mon,=C2=A0 9 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: rfc-ed= itor@rfc-editor.org
To: ietf-announ= ce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
CC: drafts-= update-ref@iana.org, id-event@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org

A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 8417

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Security Event= Token (SET)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0P.=
Hunt, Ed.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0M. Jones,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0W. Denniss,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0M. Ansari
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Standards Trac= k
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stream:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0July 2018=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mailbox:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 phil.hunt@yahoo.com,
mbj@microsoft.com,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0rfc8417@wdenni= ss.com,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0morteza.an= sari@cisco.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Characters: 64672
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:=C2=A0 =C2=A0No= ne

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I-D Tag:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-secevent= -token-13.txt

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8417

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DOI:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 10.17487/= RFC8417

This specification defines the Security Event Token (SET) data
structure.=C2=A0 A SET describes statements of fact from the perspective of an issuer about a subject.=C2=A0 These statements of fact represent an event that occurred directly to or about a security subject, for
example, a statement about the issuance or revocation of a token on
behalf of a subject.=C2=A0 This specification is intended to enable
representing security- and identity-related events.=C2=A0 A SET is a JSON Web Token (JWT), which can be optionally signed and/or encrypted.
SETs can be distributed via protocols such as HTTP.

This document is a product of the Security Events Working Group of the IETF= .

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestion= s
for improvements.=C2=A0 Please refer to the current edition of the Official=
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standard= s) for
the standardization state and status of this protocol.=C2=A0 Distribution o= f
this memo is unlimited.

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