From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 9 16:35:19 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09880 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hIB-000A4n-OL for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:47 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hI4-000A3u-74 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:40 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h99KLYKS084838 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:45 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] draft-hoffman-rfc3454bis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_44,HABEAS_SWE, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Title : Preparation of Internationalized Strings ('stringprep') Author(s) : P. Hoffman, M. Blanchet Filename : draft-hoffman-rfc3454bis-01.txt Pages : 69 Date : 2003-10-9 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hoffman-rfc3454bis-01.txt ----- From the draft: This document is a revision of RFC 3454. None of the changes affect the protocol described in RFC 3454; that is, all implementations of RFC 3454 will be identical with implementations of the specification in this document. The items that have changed RFC 3454 document are: - Made clearer in section 2 and section 7 where the check for unassigned characters should be done, namely in step 3. - In section 7, there was a paragraph about the goal of the requirements in the section. That paragraph was removed because it didn't describe the goal and could be misleading. - In the last paragraph of section 7.1, "provide" was changed to "provides". - Fixed the capitalization in the headings in Appendixes A, C, and D. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 9 16:35:27 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09897 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hIU-000A5m-QF for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:22:06 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hI4-000A3v-6v for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:40 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h99KLYKU084838 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:47 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] draft-hoffman-rfc3490bis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Title : Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications (IDNA) Author(s) : P. Faltstrom, P. Hoffman, A. Costello Filename : draft-hoffman-rfc3490bis-00.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2003-10-7 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hoffman-rfc3490bis-00.txt ----- From the draft: This document is a revision of RFC 3490. None of the changes affect the protocol described in RFC 3490; that is, all implementations of RFC 3490 will be identical with implementations of the specification in this document. The items that have changed RFC 3490 document are: - The last line of section 1 has a grammatical fix (user's -> users'). - In section 3.1 rule 3, fixed spelling of "unintelligle" to "unintelligible". - In step 8 of section 4.1, added "(0 is excluded)" to clarify. - In section 4.2, the first sentence of the third paragraph was incorrect. It has been replaced with a sentence that is both correct and more descriptive. - Added "ToUnicode consists of the following steps:" before the steps in section 4.2. - Changed wording of step 1 of section 4.2 to match the wording in section 4.1 (the result is identical). - Added the last paragraph in section 6.1 to acknowledge that some Unicode display issues are tricky, but they are not specific to IDNA. - The sentence in section 11 now says the sequence that was chosen. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 9 16:35:38 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09914 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hId-000A6H-8N for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:22:15 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hI4-000A4R-W8 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:41 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h99KLYKY084838 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:48 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] draft-costello-rfc3492bis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Title : Punycode: A Bootstring encoding of Unicode for Internationalized Domain Names in Applications (IDNA) Author(s) : A. Costello Filename : draft-costello-rfc3492bis-00.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2003-10-6 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-costello-rfc3492bis-00.txt ----- From the draft: This document is a revision of RFC 3492. None of the changes alter the protocol; that is, any correct implementation of RFC 3492 is a correct implementation of this document, and vice-versa. The changes are as follows: At the end of section 2 "Terminology", added a statement of the assumption that all values from zero through maxint can be represented. RFC 3492 relied on this assumption without stating it. In section 5 "Parameter values for Punycode", in the paragraph following the first list of parameter values, fixed the remark about code points D800..DFFF, which RFC 3492 claimed were not code points at all. Technically they are code points, but they do not occur in any valid Unicode string. In the same section, in the paragraph discussing uppercase and lowercase, clarified that the restrictions on encoder output apply only to the non-literal portion of the encoded string. In sections 6.2 "Decoding procedure" and 6.3 "Encoding procedure", added statements to emphasize that overflow handling is REQUIRED, NOT OPTIONAL. In section 6.4 "Overflow handling", fixed the definition of maxint. The definition in RFC 3492 was nonsense. In the first paragraph of section 7.1 "Sample strings", clarified the significance (or insignificance) of mixed case in the examples. In section 9.2 "Informative references", alphabetized the references, and updated the references to [IDNA] and [NAMEPREP]. In appendix C "Punycode sample implementation", fixed and clarified several comments in the C code, quieted some compiler warnings caused by implicit type conversion, and changed the interface to use size_t rather than punycode_uint for array lengths, for consistency with customs established by the standard C library. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 9 16:35:57 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09941 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hIG-000A51-DJ for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:52 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hI4-000A3w-8V for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:40 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h99KLYKW084838 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:47 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] draft-hoffman-rfc3491bis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Title : Nameprep: A Stringprep Profile for Internationalized Domain Names (IDN) Author(s) : P. Hoffman, M. Blanchet Filename : draft-hoffman-rfc3491bis-00.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2003-10-7 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hoffman-rfc3491bis-00.txt ----- From the draft: This document is a revision of RFC 3491. None of the changes affect the protocol described in RFC 3491; that is, all implementations of RFC 3491 will be identical with implementations of the specification in this document. The items that have changed RFC 3491 document are: - In section 1.1, a sentence was added to the end of the first paragraph to make it clear that implementations must follow the same steps in Stringprep, not just use the tables from Stringprep. The numbered list added as well. - In section 5, removed "This profile MUST be used with the IDNA protocol" because it is expected that other protocols might use this profile as well. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 9 16:36:56 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09970 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 16:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hIM-000A5L-BD for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:58 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A7hI4-000A3t-72 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:21:40 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h99KLYKQ084838 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:21:36 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] Moving the IDN RFCs from Proposed to Draft Standards Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Greetings again. Patrik, Adam, Marc and I have made editorial revisions to the RFCs in a new series of Internet drafts. The announcements for those drafts came out recently; the following four messages include a summary of the announcements plus the list from each Internet Draft about what changes it makes to the corresponding RFC. Note that none of the protocols were changed: all the document changes were for clarification based on comments we have received over the past six months, plus a few minor editorial changes. That is, an implementation of the old RFC should work the same under the new RFC. Comments on the individual drafts are appreciated. BTW, the second part of moving RFCs from Proposed to Draft Standard involves finding two or more independent interoperable implementations of the standard. We believe that we found many during the IDNConnect event (see ) a few weeks ago, and we'll be making a full report on this soon. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 14 23:21:11 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA15369 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 23:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A9buM-00051k-SE for idn-data@psg.com; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:01:06 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1A9buF-00051H-CK for idn@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:00:59 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9F30sI8081242 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 20:01:03 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] Interoperable IDNA implementations. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Greetings again. As part of the effort to move the IDNA documents from Proposed Standard to Draft Standard, we need to show at least two independent interoperable implementations of IDNA (talk about alliteration!). Of course, IDNA is not a client-server specification, so showing interoperability is not simply a case of creating a client and a server. Instead, as part of the work performed at the IDNConnect event last month, I created what I hope to be a very complete test suite for IDNA. This includes testing every part of the IDNA spec, every part of the Nameprep spec, and every part of the Punycode spec (where "every part" means all the protocol steps, not just the MUSTs and SHOULDs). The full set of tests is described at . (IDNConnect and the continuing development of the testbed are funded by the Japanese Domain Names Association.) The actual tests were created using the original set of tools that I created in Perl during the creation of the IDNA specs. During the event, implementers from around the world tested their code against the tests; we did not run the tests in a central environment, and results of the test were not kept. Most test participants reported that they found bugs in the software and have fixed them. Subsequent to the event, I have validated one (unnamed, pre-release) IDNA system passes all the tests that it should pass, and fails all the test that should fail, as specified in the test description. This may be sufficient for two independent interoperable implementations: the creation of the UTF-8 and Punycode strings, and the system that interpreted each of them. I have been told by some developers that there are other implementations that pass all the tests, but I have not checked that myself. It is up to the Area Directors to decide whether or not the testbed tests every part of the RFCs, and whether having a single system that performs on each string is sufficient for two systems. Please note that I could not test every part of the testbed as described. I could not perform 2-8-1 because I could not enter a string that contained a character that was later mapped out. (If anyone has an IME for Windows XP that lets me enter characters by their Unicode value even if they are not represented in a font, I would appreciate hearing from you!) Further, I could not perform 2-8-2 through 2-8-5 because the name server we tested against wouldn't let me load an illegal name into the test zone. (If someone can show me how to hack BIND 9 in order to allow labels longer than 63 octets in a zone, I would appreciate hearing from you!) Given that these tests (which exercise step 8 of ToASCII) are pretty obscure, I hope the ADs forgive the lack of these edge-condition tests. While the ADs are mulling over the tests and whether these two systems are sufficient, I am quite open to suggestions for changes and additions to the items tested. Please read the description file mentioned above and let me know if there are any tests that I should have included but missed, or any that need to be clarified. Developers who want to run their software through the testbed should see the information on the main IDNConnect web site at and download the testbed themselves. The testbed requires Perl, BIND, and Apache, but should be able to be converted to other systems as well. It also includes tests for IDNA-aware mail clients and test harnesses. The testbed will continue to be developed and freely available, so any suggestions are always welcomed. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 16 13:16:22 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA11584 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AABYr-000Bvk-3c for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:05:17 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AABYj-000Bur-F9 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:05:09 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-63-202-92-152.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.92.152]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9GH54I8095917 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:05:32 -0700 To: idn@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] NUDGE: Moving the IDN RFCs from Proposed to Draft Standards Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Just a quick reality check. I sent this message with the four follow-ons a week ago. We haven't heard anything on the list (or off the list, for that matter). Maybe our proposed changes are perfect and beyond comment... >Greetings again. Patrik, Adam, Marc and I have made editorial >revisions to the RFCs in a new series of Internet drafts. The >announcements for those drafts came out recently; the following four >messages include a summary of the announcements plus the list from >each Internet Draft about what changes it makes to the corresponding >RFC. Note that none of the protocols were changed: all the document >changes were for clarification based on comments we have received >over the past six months, plus a few minor editorial changes. That >is, an implementation of the old RFC should work the same under the >new RFC. > >Comments on the individual drafts are appreciated. > >BTW, the second part of moving RFCs from Proposed to Draft Standard >involves finding two or more independent interoperable >implementations of the standard. We believe that we found many >during the IDNConnect event (see ) a >few weeks ago, and we'll be making a full report on this soon. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 16 18:11:23 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA27860 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AAGDb-000Azx-Dx for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:03:39 +0000 Received: from [194.25.134.17] (helo=mailout02.sul.t-online.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AAGDR-000AzA-OC for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:03:29 +0000 Received: from fwd10.aul.t-online.de by mailout02.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1AAGDJ-0001Pi-00; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:03:21 +0200 Received: from mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de (r2+i9MZFYeuWeNM+BoJQOlHHXT+BBH8bjnaRXJiQqVfry3wjMsYM4a@[217.232.52.250]) by fmrl10.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1AAGD4-0rU0m00; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:03:06 +0200 Received: from mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de (8.12.7/8.11.6/SuSE Linux 0.5) with ESMTP id h9GM3Gem002700; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:03:16 +0200 Received: (from martin@localhost) by mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h9GM3DiV002697; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:03:13 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de: martin set sender to martin@v.loewis.de using -f To: Paul Hoffman / IMC Cc: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [idn] draft-costello-rfc3492bis References: From: martin@v.loewis.de (Martin v. =?iso-8859-15?q?L=F6wis?=) Date: 17 Oct 2003 00:03:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Seen: false X-ID: r2+i9MZFYeuWeNM+BoJQOlHHXT+BBH8bjnaRXJiQqVfry3wjMsYM4a@t-dialin.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS,SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Paul Hoffman / IMC writes: > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-costello-rfc3492bis-00.txt I just looked at it, and have these comments: > In sections 6.2 "Decoding procedure" and 6.3 "Encoding procedure", > added statements to emphasize that overflow handling is REQUIRED, > NOT OPTIONAL. "NOT OPTIONAL" is not a keyword of RFC2119. "OPTIONAL" is, and it is a synonym of "MAY". The usage of "NOT OPTIONAL" is redundant with the "MUST". It's not immediately obvious why some operations (e.g. inside adapt) don't perform overflow checking, but (without further review) I assume there is some guarantee that it can't overflow. Regards, Martin From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 17 04:52:36 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA24751 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 04:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AAQBr-000J6n-Ck for idn-data@psg.com; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:42:31 +0000 Received: from [128.32.132.165] (helo=nicemice.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AAQBi-000J6H-Lk for idn@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:42:22 +0000 Received: from amc by nicemice.net with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1AAQBh-0004kw-00 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:42:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:42:21 +0000 From: "Adam M. Costello" To: idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [idn] draft-costello-rfc3492bis Message-ID: <20031017084221.GA16647@nicemice.net> Reply-To: IETF idn working group References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_30,SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Martin v. Lwis" wrote: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-costello-rfc3492bis-00.txt > > "NOT OPTIONAL" is not a keyword of RFC2119. "OPTIONAL" is, and it is a > synonym of "MAY". The usage of "NOT OPTIONAL" is redundant with the > "MUST". Maybe I got carried away with the emphasis. I wouldn't mind removing all instances of "NOT OPTIONAL", leaving just "MUST" and "REQUIRED". > It's not immediately obvious why some operations (e.g. inside adapt) > don't perform overflow checking, but (without further review) I assume > there is some guarantee that it can't overflow. You raise an interesting question. In the main encoding and decoding functions, for any values of maxint and the constants (base, tmin, tmax, etc), you can make overflow happen by providing a long enough input. In adapt(), on the other hand, the possibility of overflow can be ruled out regardless of the input, if the constants aren't too extreme. adapt() cannot overflow if (base - tmin + 1) * ((base - tmin) * tmax) div 2) <= maxint and base * (log(maxint) - log(0.5 * tmax)) / log(base - tmin) + base - tmin <= maxint The former condition can be rewritten to avoid overflow in the condition itself: base - tmin <= ( (maxint div (base - tmin + 1)) * 2 + 1 ) div tmax This is the first time I've carried the analysis to this level of detail, so watch out for errors. (I would welcome independent analyses for comparison.) For Punycode, this boils down to maxint >= 16380, and I've never heard of a platform with maxint smaller than 32767. For other parameterizations of Bootstring, it could be more of a concern. In any case, those checks can be performed once per platform; there is no need for a runtime check. Perhaps the draft should discuss this. By the way, I just noticed that the conditions on tmin and tmax in section 4 are insufficient. It currently says: 0 <= tmin <= tmax <= base-1 We need to strengthen that in order to avoid infinite loops. 0 <= tmin <= base-2 1 <= tmax <= base-1 tmin <= tmax I suppose that's a technical change in Bootstring, but it has no effect on Punycode, whose parameters already obey the stronger constraints. AMC From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 26 15:05:26 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25995 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 15:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1ADqyr-000LjG-Ls for idn-data@psg.com; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:55:17 +0000 Received: from [144.254.74.5] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1ADqyo-000Lit-AM for idn@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:55:14 +0000 Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2003 20:53:10 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-312.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h9QJt4l0006339; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:11 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:10 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:08 +0100 To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2003 19:55:10.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[101FC540:01C39BFB] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized=20 Email Addresses (IEA). It is *preliminary* on the agenda on Monday, November 10, 2003 at=20 1530-1730. Chairs: Pete Resnick, Patrik F=E4ltstr=F6m Mailing list:imaa@imc.org (other salient lists include uri@w3.org) Agenda: Agenda Bashing (Chairs) 5 min. Topic Introduction (Chairs) 10 min. Proposals IDNA-Based (Paul Hoffman) 15 min. Infrastructure-Based (John Klensin) 15 min. IRI-Based (Michel Suignard) 15 min. Discussion 60 min. Topics for discussion: Are there other solutions which have been specified? The solutions present the problem at different scopes; Where should the IETF tackle it? Are some short-term, and other long-term? Can the solutions be staged or co-exist? If staged, how to migrate from one to another? What are the next steps for the IETF? NB: This BoF is exploratory in nature, and it is not intended that the=20= IETF will finalize a decision in this venue. It was proposed to foster=20= a community discussion, not charter a working group or pick a winner.=20 If further work is required, step one would be identifying individuals=20= willing to carry that work forward. Reading material: draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt draft-duerst-iri-04.txt Pete and myself hope people will come with a lot of constructive=20 comments and ideas. Patrik, co-chair of the bof From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 10:58:15 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21485 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AE9Y5-000MTi-T3 for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:44:53 +0000 Received: from [208.184.79.7] (helo=joy.songbird.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AE9Y2-000MT8-5t for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:44:50 +0000 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9RFokf29900; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:50:46 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:41:11 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UGF0cmlrIEbkbHRzdHL2bQ==?= CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Patrik, Thanks for putting this BOF together. PF> Where should the IETF tackle it? I am not sure I understand this question. Please clarify. PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? (I realize that the presence of such different specifications makes a charter at least a bit challenging, but it seems to help to have a draft, to make things concrete.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 11:00:42 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA21619 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AE9h2-000N6j-KP for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:54:08 +0000 Received: from [160.36.56.50] (helo=klutz.cs.utk.edu) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AE9gl-000N5S-Di for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:53:51 +0000 Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812AC14142; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01580-02; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D86C14094; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:52:22 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Dave Crocker Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-Id: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? > > Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? let's back up a step further. what problem are we trying to solve here? Keith From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 11:45:07 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA24395 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEANC-00001k-7O for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:37:42 +0000 Received: from [216.43.25.66] (helo=episteme-software.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEAMv-000Q0B-Rx for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:37:25 +0000 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3b1); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:37:25 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a2] Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:37:21 -0600 To: Keith Moore From: Pete Resnick Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Dave Crocker , moore@cs.utk.edu, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk On 10/27/03 at 10:52 AM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: >>DC: Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? As was mentioned in the draft agenda at , we want to simply start the discussion, not immediately attempt to charter a working group. >let's back up a step further. > >what problem are we trying to solve here? Please have a look at draft-hoffman-imaa, draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n, and draft-duerst-iri. Certainly the first two have very explicit descriptions of the problem. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 12:15:24 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25863 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEAko-0001nx-DL for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:02:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:5c0:0:1::3] (helo=panoramix.hexago.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEAkf-0001n4-1d for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:01:57 +0000 Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RH0M6r005886; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:00:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:00:01 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Keith Moore , Dave Crocker cc: paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <575390000.1067274001@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Monday, October 27, 2003 10:52:22 -0500 Keith Moore wrote/a ecrit: >> PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? >> >> Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? > > let's back up a step further. > > what problem are we trying to solve here? to me, that (problem we are trying to solve) would be part of the introduction in the charter... so I guess some initial proposal for: - what are we trying to solve - what would be the way to solve it would be a good starting point together with the "state-of-the-art" presentations. Marc. > > Keith ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 13:51:30 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA00013 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AECN0-0007kw-CZ for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:45:38 +0000 Received: from [160.36.56.50] (helo=klutz.cs.utk.edu) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AECMx-0007kW-1e for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:45:35 +0000 Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4301401D; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25223-11; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA6C13FEC; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:44:03 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Mark Crispin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-Id: <20031027134403.5eaaee9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down on this just a bit. What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: a. for users of many languages (particularly those not using Latin alphabets) email addresses are difficult to remember b. for users of many languages (particularly those not using Latin alphabets) email addresses are difficult to transcribe or type c. users want to use their names in email addresses d. users are confused by apparently arbitrary restrictions on use of characters in email addresses, and this leads to mistakes e. on computer systems employing non-ASCII names for other purposes (e.g. login or account names) these do not map well to ASCII email addresses or something else that I don't see? > As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 Latin > alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special characters in > the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to use additional > characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and > non-Latin characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of > the multi-national Internet community. However, the restrictions of > ASCII email addresses have served as a "lingua franca" since everybody > can enter ASCII email addresses, and there is an ongoing need for this > as well. The problem to be solved is the resolution of these two > needs. From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:52:18 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29200 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH0x-000Mzh-Gk for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:11 +0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Keith Moore cc: Dave Crocker , paf@cisco.com Message-Id: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: >> what problem are we trying to solve here? I agree with Keith. This isn't to say that I dispute that there is a problem to be solved -- indeed, I think that the problem is apparent to all -- but we must have a problem statement that we all agree upon before we even think about solutions. I don't think that references to drafts of proposed solutions suffice as a problem statement. Leaving aside questions of possible bias (= present a problem in such a way that this is the obvious best solution), having the problem statement in a draft (which by its nature is an ephemeral document) muddies the issues. The problem statement should consist of a single paragraph (and preferably in one or two sentences), separate from any proposed solution, and stated in a charter which is approved by everyone. Here's a start at such a statement: As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to use additional characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and non-Latin characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of the multi-national Internet community. However, the restrictions of ASCII email addresses have served as a "lingua franca" since everybody can enter ASCII email addresses, and there is an ongoing need for this as well. The problem to be solved is the resolution of these two needs. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:52:18 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29203 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH10-000Mzy-Lb for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:14 +0000 From: bill-imc@carpenter.ORG (WJCarpenter) To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:14 +0000 mc> As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 mc> Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special mc> characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to upper and lower case alphabetics -- bill-imc@carpenter.ORG (WJCarpenter) PGP 0x91865119 38 95 1B 69 C9 C6 3D 25 73 46 32 04 69 D6 ED F3 From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:53:26 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29278 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH0t-000MzL-Q3 for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:07 +0000 From: "Georg Ochsner" To: "IETF idn working group" Subject: [idn] When will IDN be functional? Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:55:00 +0100 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Message-Id: Hello friends, can anybody tell me, when IDNs will finally go live now, with the final prefix and everything? What are the reasons for the latest delays (at Verisign)? Regards, George From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:53:32 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29301 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH14-000N0E-GD for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:18 +0000 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Keith Moore cc: dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Message-Id: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: >> Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down >> on this just a bit. >> What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: >> [snip] I agree that this needs to be stated, but someone other than me will have to do it. I believe that the primary push for this functionality comes from regions which use Latin alphabetics with diacriticals; and that most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script are accept the use of Latin script for multinational interchange. In many regions where Latin diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspelling. This set of beliefs naturally biases how I approach the problem. The problem statement must be free of bias, including mine. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:53:37 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29321 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH0s-000MzG-R6 for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:06 +0000 Received: from [202.27.17.100] (helo=sentosa.post1.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH0n-000Myr-9u for idn@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:01 +0000 Received: (qmail 5838 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2003 00:01:35 -0000 Received: from rifcd-04p117.ppp.odn.ad.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (211.3.24.117) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 00:01:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3F9CFC5D.7060509@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:07:09 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24, RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a draft that I can read up? ps: I wont be able to join the meeting but I am interested in the subject. -James Seng Patrik Fltstrm wrote: > At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized > Email Addresses (IEA). > > It is *preliminary* on the agenda on Monday, November 10, 2003 at > 1530-1730. > > Chairs: Pete Resnick, Patrik Fltstrm > Mailing list:imaa@imc.org (other salient lists include uri@w3.org) > Agenda: > > Agenda Bashing (Chairs) 5 min. > Topic Introduction (Chairs) 10 min. > Proposals > IDNA-Based (Paul Hoffman) 15 min. > Infrastructure-Based (John Klensin) 15 min. > IRI-Based (Michel Suignard) 15 min. > > Discussion 60 min. > > Topics for discussion: > > Are there other solutions which have been specified? > > The solutions present the problem at different scopes; > > Where should the IETF tackle it? > > Are some short-term, and other long-term? > > Can the solutions be staged or co-exist? > > If staged, how to migrate from one to another? > > What are the next steps for the IETF? > > > NB: This BoF is exploratory in nature, and it is not intended that the > IETF will finalize a decision in this venue. It was proposed to foster > a community discussion, not charter a working group or pick a winner. If > further work is required, step one would be identifying individuals > willing to carry that work forward. > > Reading material: > draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt > draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt > draft-duerst-iri-04.txt > > Pete and myself hope people will come with a lot of constructive > comments and ideas. > > Patrik, co-chair of the bof > > > > > From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 18:54:05 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA29340 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEH1A-000N0X-M0 for idn-data@psg.com; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:43:24 +0000 From: Dave Aronson Organization: Secure Software -- http://www.securesw.com/ To: bill-imc@carpenter.ORG (WJCarpenter), ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:43:09 -0500 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Message-Id: On Mon October 27 2003 12:30, WJCarpenter wrote: > mc> As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 > mc> Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special > mc> characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need > to > > upper and lower case alphabetics Yes, but with either of those two sets (generally) considered equivalent to the other, boiling down to effectively 26 choices. -- Dave Aronson, Senior Software Engineer, Secure Software Inc. Email me at: work (D0T) 2004 (@T) dja (D0T) mailme (D0T) org Web: http://destined.to/program http://listen.to/davearonson From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 19:07:53 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA29847 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHHW-000ODr-C6 for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:00:18 +0000 Received: from [216.220.34.103] (helo=neteka.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHHR-000ODG-Gn for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:00:13 +0000 Message-ID: <038f01c39ce6$45d05c40$3fa996d5@neteka.inc> From: "Edmon Chung" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" Cc: "Dave Crocker" , , References: Subject: [idn] Re: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:57:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Crispin" > multi-national Internet community. However, the restrictions of ASCII > email addresses have served as a "lingua franca" since everybody can enter > ASCII email addresses, and there is an ongoing need for this as well. The > problem to be solved is the resolution of these two needs. I dont think having multilingual email addresses would cause ASCII addresses to stop working... Afterall, English, or whatever langauges that ASCII is capable of representing, is part of the "internationalized" space :-) Why do you see a need to specifically "highlight" this? Are you saying that there is a "need" to allow the management/access of multilingual addresses using ASCII? Edmon From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 19:14:46 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00094 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHLe-000OTv-0G for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:04:34 +0000 Received: from [160.36.56.50] (helo=klutz.cs.utk.edu) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHLX-000OTS-BB for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:04:27 +0000 Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B15614215; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03708-02; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7010D14007; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:04:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:02:53 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: "Edmon Chung" Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU, dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, idn@ops.ietf.org Subject: [idn] Re: (no subject) Message-Id: <20031027190253.2aac3073.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <038f01c39ce6$45d05c40$3fa996d5@neteka.inc> References: <038f01c39ce6$45d05c40$3fa996d5@neteka.inc> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why do you see a need to specifically "highlight" this? Are you saying that > there is a "need" to allow the management/access of multilingual addresses > using ASCII? only if people who use multilingual addresses want to exchange email with people whose mail readers don't support them. In other words, yes, there is definitely a need to allow management/access to multilingual addresses using ASCII. From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 19:27:17 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00570 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHbD-000PfH-Da for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:20:39 +0000 Received: from [208.184.79.7] (helo=joy.songbird.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHb9-000Peq-Ry for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:20:35 +0000 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S0Qaf09143; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:26:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:19:25 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, On the theory that discussions go better when they have a concrete deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a proposed working group. The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it might not look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the following text attempts to specify the problem domain in the narrowest feasible form that is valid. If anyone thinks the scope is too narrow, they need to explain why. DRAFT CHARTER Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) --------------------------------- The portion of RFC2822 and portion of RFC2821 mail addresses are restricted to a subset of ASCII. This poses a fundamental barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a richer set of characters, such as Latin characters with diacriticals and the many Asian characters. The goal of the current work is to add local-part support for these additional characters, while preserving the large, installed base of ASCII usage. The group will take: draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt draft-duerst-iri-04.txt as input to discussions. The group will pay particular attention to barriers to adoption and utility, as well as any impact the new scheme might have on the existing base of Internet mail usage. Milestones ---------- Nov, 03: BOF Dec, 03: WG chartered Feb, 03: Initial draft of working group specifications. Jun, 03: Specifications submitted for IETF approval d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 19:27:48 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00642 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHXB-000PPO-BJ for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:16:29 +0000 Received: from [66.40.78.254] (helo=w1309.hostcentric.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHX4-000PP0-Qu for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:16:22 +0000 Received: (qmail 22319 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (129.42.184.35) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0000 Message-ID: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" Cc: , , , , , , , , , , , , , References: Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:16:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin characters only, and no non-Latin characters? Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Crispin" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 11:10 Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > >> Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down > >> on this just a bit. > >> What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: > >> [snip] > > > I agree that this needs to be stated, but someone other than me will have > to do it. > > I believe that the primary push for this functionality comes from regions > which use Latin alphabetics with diacriticals; and that most individuals > in regions which do not use Latin script are accept the use of Latin > script for multinational interchange. In many regions where Latin > diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a > form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical > causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspelling. > > This set of beliefs naturally biases how I approach the problem. The > problem statement must be free of bias, including mine. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > > > > > > > > From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 19:35:52 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA00933 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHhW-00004I-Ph for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:27:10 +0000 Received: from [194.25.134.21] (helo=mailout10.sul.t-online.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEHhS-000040-QM for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:27:06 +0000 Received: from fwd03.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1AEHhR-0004FI-02; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:27:05 +0100 Received: from v.loewis.de (ZZKCemZXge4gXr7tkK3S7jSk4+tsOiuv0z48ClXgf3hfVlJN6Zh-Qk@[217.232.33.241]) by fmrl03.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 1AEHhE-1T05Ts0; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:26:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3F9DB7CF.9070705@v.loewis.de> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:26:55 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20030925 X-Accept-Language: de, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Georg Ochsner CC: IETF idn working group Subject: Re: [idn] When will IDN be functional? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Seen: false X-ID: ZZKCemZXge4gXr7tkK3S7jSk4+tsOiuv0z48ClXgf3hfVlJN6Zh-Qk@t-dialin.net X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_NJABL, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Georg Ochsner wrote: > can anybody tell me, when IDNs will finally go live now, with the final > prefix and everything? What are the reasons for the latest delays (at > Verisign)? They are live already. It is up to each registry to allow registration, employing additional per-TLD-restrictions, as the registry sees fit. Verisign manages just com/net/org, and there are much more ccTLDs which proceed at their own pace (even though, to my knowledge, .nu is the only one that has IDNA operational today). Regards, Martin From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 20:15:40 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02393 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEIN4-00029y-TE for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:10:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:5c0:0:1::3] (helo=panoramix.hexago.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEIMz-00028r-Kx for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:10:01 +0000 Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S18c6r006354; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:08:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:08:25 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Dave Crocker , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <839550000.1067303305@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - good start! - timeline seems pretty agressive... will see. - would probably good to have a requirement document upfront. Might not the same way that idn requirement ends up, but a narrow-implementable requirement would help to have a concensus (hopefully) on what needs to be done. - while the idn req went not that good, now that we have experience, I think we should try to be better and have one. I know I might start some debate with this, but still think it is the best way to go... - would be useful to have some reference to idn (idna) in the charter, as background work. the developers and users will have to take care of "both" (ie. idn and imail) in the email infrastructure. Marc. -- Monday, October 27, 2003 16:19:25 -0800 Dave Crocker wrote/a ecrit: > Folks, > > On the theory that discussions go better when they have a concrete > deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a proposed working group. > > The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it might not > look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the following text > attempts to specify the problem domain in the narrowest feasible form > that is valid. If anyone thinks the scope is too narrow, they need to > explain why. > > > > DRAFT CHARTER > > Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) > --------------------------------- > > The portion of RFC2822 and portion of RFC2821 > mail addresses are restricted to a subset of ASCII. This poses a > fundamental barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a > richer set of characters, such as Latin characters with diacriticals and > the many Asian characters. The goal of the current work is to add > local-part support for these additional characters, while preserving the > large, installed base of ASCII usage. > > The group will take: > > draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt > draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt > draft-duerst-iri-04.txt > > as input to discussions. > > The group will pay particular attention to barriers to adoption and > utility, as well as any impact the new scheme might have on the existing > base of Internet mail usage. > > > Milestones > ---------- > > Nov, 03: BOF > > Dec, 03: WG chartered > > Feb, 03: Initial draft of working group specifications. > > Jun, 03: Specifications submitted for IETF approval > > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > Sunnyvale, CA USA > ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 20:45:19 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA03290 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEIpe-0003Qk-Py for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:39:38 +0000 Received: from [66.40.78.254] (helo=w1309.hostcentric.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEIpb-0003QJ-5b for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:39:35 +0000 Received: (qmail 22048 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (129.42.184.35) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Message-ID: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" Cc: "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, I understand more about the context. Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want email addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't (easily) use those email address. After all, it is quite easy to have multiple email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one with Japanese (e.g. ムルク@カク.ワシングトン.エデゥ). We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email addresses. And there are many projects underway in less-developed countries to bring computers to masses of people that will even less familiarity with Latin letters. Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Crispin" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Keith Moore" ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; ; ; ; Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 17:15 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin > > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? > > I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicality, > most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script accept the use > of Latin script for multinational exchange. > > It does not work well for an individual in Japan with surname Tanaka to > expect the overwhelming majority of non-Japanese individuals worldwide to > know his surname is written with the Han characters for "rice paddy" and > "middle", or what those characters look like, or how to enter those > characters on the computer. > > It does, however, work for him to expect that the overwhelming majority of > individuals worldwide to know how to deal with the 6 Latin letters that > form the romanization "Tanaka". > > Nor is it very likely that this situation will change in the future. I > doubt that many individuals in the world are literate in all the world's > active scripts. Literacy in one's native script and basic Latin script is > something that most computer users possess today. > > For domestic exchange only, that pair of Han characters are probably > alright. Within Western Europe, it's probably alright to use Latin > characters with diacriticals. > > Perhaps the main problem that needs to be decided in any IEA effort is if > it is alright to have email addresses that are only usable in limited > areas of the world; or if not, how to represent internationalized email > addresses in a usable fashion when (not if) the email address needs to be > represented for a person and/or computer is illiterate in that script. > > A likely side issue is whether it is "good enough" to promote Latin > characters with diacriticals to the same status of "everybody must know > how to do these" that is required for ASCII. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 27 21:49:11 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA04795 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEJoY-00063Y-LO for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:42:34 +0000 Received: from [208.184.79.7] (helo=joy.songbird.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEJoW-00063L-CM for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:42:32 +0000 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S2mVf18218; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:48:31 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:26 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> To: Roy Badami CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roy, >> Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized RB> local-parts. Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care of the right-hand side. So what is there to do about "internationalized mail addresses" other than the local part? RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding RB> other potentially relevent issues. For instance, one of the issues RB> that has been discussed on the IMAA list is whether full-width at RB> should be recognized in an internationalized mail address. full-width _where_? somewhere other than local part? if yes, then how can that be practical? if no, then the charter does not preclude their use. (if you think otherwise, please explain.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 02:27:54 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA03353 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEOA5-000Huz-2n for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:21:05 +0000 Received: from [216.43.25.66] (helo=episteme-software.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEOA2-000Hul-GQ for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:21:02 +0000 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3b1); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:21:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a2] Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:20:58 -0600 To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com From: Pete Resnick Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Roy Badami , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk On 10/27/03 at 6:42 PM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: >RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main >RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of >RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized >RB> local-parts. > >Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care >of the right-hand side. Please review John Klensin's draft before making these kinds of assumptions. >RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >RB> other potentially relevent issues. I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not take into account some of the possibilities. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 02:35:20 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA04060 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEOJh-000IKa-2X for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:31:01 +0000 Received: from [217.160.143.182] (helo=kaiser.centr.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEOJe-000IKA-0w for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:30:58 +0000 Received: from centr.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by kaiser.centr.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F233FA0A4; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:30:56 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F9E1B1E.1090400@centr.org> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:30:38 +0100 From: Kim Davies User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?= Cc: Georg Ochsner , IETF idn working group Subject: Re: [idn] When will IDN be functional? References: <3F9DB7CF.9070705@v.loewis.de> In-Reply-To: <3F9DB7CF.9070705@v.loewis.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Martin v. Lwis wrote: > >> can anybody tell me, when IDNs will finally go live now, with the final >> prefix and everything? What are the reasons for the latest delays (at >> Verisign)? > > They are live already. It is up to each registry to allow registration, > employing additional per-TLD-restrictions, as the registry sees fit. > Verisign manages just com/net/org, and there are much more ccTLDs which > proceed at their own pace (even though, to my knowledge, .nu is the only > one that has IDNA operational today). .se, .pl and .jp are some others. As for VeriSign, it has a request pending with ICANN since October 13 seeking permission to offer IDNs. kim From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 04:00:22 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10333 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEPa4-000MeU-Lr for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:52:00 +0000 Received: from [192.134.4.152] (helo=maya20.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEPZu-000Mda-9C for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:51:50 +0000 Received: from vespucci.nic.fr (postfix@vespucci.nic.fr [192.134.4.68]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h9S8oNQW1526872; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by vespucci.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1055) id 5FF63FF47; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux testing/unstable X-Kernel: Linux 2.4.21-3-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, Mark Davis wrote a message of 76 lines which said: > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email > addresses. It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics :-) From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 04:00:56 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA10370 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEPWu-000MQX-JR for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:48:44 +0000 Received: from [192.134.4.152] (helo=maya20.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEPWs-000MQG-2C for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:48:42 +0000 Received: from vespucci.nic.fr (postfix@vespucci.nic.fr [192.134.4.68]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h9S8mdQW1526211; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:48:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by vespucci.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1055) id B1CEBFF47; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:48:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:48:39 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Georg Ochsner Cc: IETF idn working group Subject: Re: [idn] When will IDN be functional? Message-ID: <20031028084839.GA6617@nic.fr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux testing/unstable X-Kernel: Linux 2.4.21-3-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 11:55:00AM +0100, Georg Ochsner wrote a message of 16 lines which said: > can anybody tell me, when IDNs will finally go live now, with the final > prefix and everything? As mentioned, they are live for several months. Here is the list of proper RFCs: 3490 Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications (IDNA). P. Faltstrom, P. Hoffman, A. Costello. March 2003. (Format: TXT=51943 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) 3491 Nameprep: A Stringprep Profile for Internationalized Domain Names (IDN). P. Hoffman, M. Blanchet. March 2003. (Format: TXT=10316 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) 3492 Punycode: A Bootstring encoding of Unicode for Internationalized Domain Names in Applications (IDNA). A. Costello. March 2003. (Format: TXT=67439 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 04:46:46 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12194 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 04:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEQKT-000PDC-3T for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:39:57 +0000 Received: from [208.184.79.7] (helo=joy.songbird.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEQKQ-000PCr-3j for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:39:54 +0000 Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S9jrf12762; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:45:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:13:50 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2337816887.20031028011350@brandenburg.com> To: Pete Resnick CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pete, >>RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >>RB> other potentially relevent issues. PR> I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not PR> take into account some of the possibilities. That was exactly the intent of the text. We have already seen how nicely the text served to bring into pretty stark relief one bit of expectation from one of the proposals. It is only fitting to have it serve the same purpose for another one. IETF BOF time is pretty lousy for an open-ended chat. Having specifications to chat about is only marginally better than not having them. What makes the real difference is having serious focus to the meeting. If we go into this meeting without even having a clear sense of the scope of the problem to be tackled, then the chance of having a productive meeting is pretty small. At the moment, it appears that the focus of the meeting is likely to be: Shall we break existing Internet mail or shall we lay an enhancement on top of it that preserves the installed base. (I'm sure that everyone else who was present at the pre-MIME/ESMTP discussions is really looking forward to repeating the experience.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 10:02:43 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA27262 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEVFE-000F3D-Px for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:54:52 +0000 Received: from [66.40.78.254] (helo=w1309.hostcentric.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEVFA-000F2v-Na for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:54:48 +0000 Received: (qmail 23826 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Message-ID: <006b01c39d63$6d928d70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Cc: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy because I was hoping that some of the = Latin-only folks out there would at least recognize the name of one = other script. But how comforable would you really be, if = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90 = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3? Mark __________________________________ =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Mark Crispin" ; "Keith Moore" = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; = ; ; ; = Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses = (IEA) > On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, > Mark Davis wrote=20 > a message of 76 lines which said: >=20 > > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin = letters are > > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters = in all email > > addresses.=20 >=20 > It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics > :-) >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy = because I=20 was hoping that some of the Latin-only folks out there would at least=20 recognize the name of one other script. But how comforable = would you=20 really be, if =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F=20 =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90=20 =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3?

Mark
__________________________________

 <= /DIV>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>
Cc: "Mark Crispin" <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>; "Keith = Moore"=20 <moore@cs.utk.edu>; <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>; = <paf@cisco.com>; <ietf-imaa@imc.org>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>; <ietf-822@imc.org>; <ietf@ietf.org>; <ietf-pop3ext@imc.org>; = <lemonade@ietf.org>; <discuss@apps.ietf.org>; "IMAP = Extensions WG"=20 <ietf-imapext@imc.org>; = <ietf-smtp@imc.org>; <presnick@qualcomm.com>; = <hardie@qualcomm.com>; = <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50
Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized = Email=20 Addresses (IEA)

> On Mon, Oct 27, = 2003 at=20 05:39:32PM -0800,
>  Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> wrote =
>  a=20 message of 76 lines which said:
>
> > We should remember = that=20 for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are
> > = quite=20 unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all=20 email
> > addresses.
>
> It would be a bit like = if we had=20 to use Greek letters in mathematics
> :-)
>
>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090-- From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 10:17:21 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA28934 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 10:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEVUw-000GCv-JS for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:11:06 +0000 Received: from [66.40.78.254] (helo=w1309.hostcentric.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEVUr-000GCI-NE for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:11:01 +0000 Received: (qmail 31822 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Message-ID: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:10:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > UNIX/Linux vendors... It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to produce fully localized versions of their software. Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how native words would be spelled in it. Mark From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 11:20:57 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04874 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEWUj-000Kif-TV for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:14:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:5c0:0:1::3] (helo=panoramix.hexago.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEWUf-000KiH-7I for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:14:53 +0000 Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGD66r006992; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:12:54 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b9 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this discussion? Marc. -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis wrote/a ecrit: >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) >> >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > native words would be spelled in it. > > Mark > ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 11:28:31 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05545 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEWcG-000LCe-4h for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:22:44 +0000 Received: from [66.40.78.254] (helo=w1309.hostcentric.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEWcC-000LCA-HM for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:22:40 +0000 Received: (qmail 2789 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Message-ID: <00fb01c39d6f$b46cdd70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Marc Blanchet" , "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wouldn't have thought so either, but at least some people questioned the need for non-Latin characters, and went so far as to exclude them from a proposed problem statement: > ... There is a growing need to use additional > characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and non-Latin > characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of the > multi-national Internet community... Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Mark Davis" ; "Mark Crispin" ; "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 08:12 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn > considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this > discussion? > > Marc. > > -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis > wrote/a ecrit: > > >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > >> > >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin > > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India > > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of > > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. > > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even > > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad > > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > > native words would be spelled in it. > > > > Mark > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > Marc Blanchet > Hexago > tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 > ------------------------------------------ > http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity > ------------------------------------------ > From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 12:42:57 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11675 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEXlZ-000PYI-45 for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:36:25 +0000 Received: from [209.187.148.211] (helo=bs.jck.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEXlV-000PXz-0G for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:36:21 +0000 Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 15:15:26 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA21658 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEa86-0007h1-6G for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:07:50 +0000 Received: from [128.173.14.107] (helo=turing-police.cc.vt.edu) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEa83-0007gp-Is for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:07:47 +0000 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 18:24:25 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA06917 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEd4j-000Hew-V0 for idn-data@psg.com; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:16:33 +0000 Received: from [206.157.224.254] (helo=hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEd4g-000Hea-MP for idn@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:16:30 +0000 Received: from CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.231]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:29 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:28 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com ([10.64.200.56]) by catl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:52:19 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:56 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SKbmv16600; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEZlm-0004nU-3B for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:44:46 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEXlX-00008u-Kd for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11141; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hm-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:22 -0500 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hi-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:21 -0500 Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 20:37:57.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EF05D30:01C39D93] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 19:18:46 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA10090 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEdss-000Kld-Hy for idn-data@psg.com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:08:22 +0000 Received: from [206.157.224.254] (helo=hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEdsj-000Kl7-Tg for idn@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:08:14 +0000 Received: from catl0ms22.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.101]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:13 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:58:56 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM ([10.62.201.69]) by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:35:02 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:31 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SLSRO10130; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEajF-0001VS-2l for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:46:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEa7u-00033N-AZ for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20519; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7s-0005if-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:36 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.107]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7r-0005iU-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:35 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 21:28:31.0955 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F9C6230:01C39D9A] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 28 20:48:14 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA15871 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEfM3-000PDh-FS for idn-data@psg.com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:42:35 +0000 Received: from [208.184.76.39] (helo=above.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEfKn-000PBG-47 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:41:17 +0000 Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-66-125-125-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.69]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T1f6I8016895; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:55 -0800 To: Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com, , , , , , , , , From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: [idn] Location of the IMAA list (was: RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HABEAS_SWE autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk At 11:54 AM -0500 10/28/03, Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com wrote: >The BOF description lists imaa@imc.org as the >discussion list, but this discussion is being >cc:ed to ietf-imaa@imc.org. I'd suggest that you >move this discussion to whichever of those lists >is actually correct. It is ietf-imaa@imc.org, although because Patrik sent out the wrong address, I have made sure that both addresses work. An archive of the list, and links to the current versions of the drafts, can be found at . No more messages to all lists: that's what the IMAA list is for. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 29 18:29:05 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14753 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEzaX-0001yx-6l for idn-data@psg.com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:18:53 +0000 Received: from [131.107.3.123] (helo=mail3.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEzaU-0001yk-4e for idn@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:18:50 +0000 Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from 157.54.8.109 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:19:48 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7097.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:45 -0800 Message-ID: <84DD35E3DD87D5489AC42A59926DABE9046E700D@WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Thread-Topic: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) thread-index: AcOc5UacENkLjcQgTxGePqP067EdhwBjOJ7A From: "Michel Suignard" To: "James Seng" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: , , , , , , , , , "Pete Resnick" , "Ted Hardie" , "Ned Freed" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2003 23:18:47.0668 (UTC) FILETIME=[014BD340:01C39E73] X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JS>I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a = draft that I can read JS>up?=20 I don't have a proposal. I am listed there as a co-editor of the IRI = spec which has a peripheral impact on the IEA (such as extending the URI = mailto scheme). Like many I am listening with interest to the points = made for or against the two proposals. Michel Suignard From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 29 18:45:48 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA15216 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEzwN-0002wh-3t for idn-data@psg.com; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:41:27 +0000 Received: from [202.27.17.100] (helo=sentosa.post1.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AEzwK-0002wJ-3p for idn@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:41:24 +0000 Received: (qmail 42705 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2003 23:59:48 -0000 Received: from p5200-ipad75marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (220.107.220.200) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 2003 23:59:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3FA04CA4.6050409@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:26:28 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Mark Davis , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crispin, You need to get out of US (or Wsshington) more often. -James Seng > I am not convinced that it is possible to use a computer on the Internet > anywhere in the world without at least a basic acquaintance with Latin > script. > > I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are > literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin > script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English > language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. > > Put another way, individuals who are completely illiterate in Latin script > are also likely to be illiterate in their native language script as well. > > No other script on the planet has such international recognition. > > There is undoubtably a *preference* for one's native script; and that > preference should be respected as much as possible. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > > > > > From owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 29 19:16:55 2003 Received: from psg.com (mailnull@psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA16571 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lserv by psg.com with local (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AF0MZ-0004Pv-Rh for idn-data@psg.com; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:08:31 +0000 Received: from [202.27.17.100] (helo=sentosa.post1.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD 4.9) id 1AF0MS-0004PA-38 for idn@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:08:24 +0000 Received: (qmail 42733 invoked from network); 30 Oct 2003 00:00:08 -0000 Received: from p5200-ipad75marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (220.107.220.200) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2003 00:00:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3FA04E1E.9070906@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:32:46 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Abhijit Menon-Sen , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on psg.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_RFCI autolearn=no version=2.60 Sender: owner-idn@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I do not believe that this is true for Chinese. AFAIK, Chinese primary > school kids use Latin script with hanyu-pinyin as a stopgap prior to their > mastery of Han script (which takes many years). Nope. Hanyu Pinyin was designed to replace the Han ideograph but it never did. > Note that when I say "recognize Latin script", I mean the ability to > determine that "dog" is a three-letter word that has the letters "d", "o", > and "g", each of which the individual recognizes and can name. This does > not include the ability to recognize that this refers to a domesticated > canine. Based on your reasonings, I think we should all reverted back to numbers, because that is the only universal recongizable set of symbols we have. We have this argument in IDN before and we certainly dont need this again. If you feel we should all stick to Latin, yes, you are entitled to your opinion but please do so in other place, and not here. The group is suppose to work on Internationalization of Email address (identifiers), not debate whether we need it or not. -James Seng