From nobody Mon Mar 18 10:22:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C55D13111D; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iEOUWW76LHqI; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 074CC130E94; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1h5vxH-0007Ks-Ek; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:21:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:21:37 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Dan Romascanu , gen-art@ietf.org cc: draft-faltstrom-unicode11.all@ietf.org, Alissa Cooper , Barry Leiba , idna-update@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> In-Reply-To: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 17:21:50 -0000 Dan, I have read Barry's two responses, Alissa's response, and your response to Barry, but this note seems the easiest one to which to respond. This particular draft is, as I understand it, OBE, but there are (still) a few things going on that are probably not visible from this particular I-D alone and that were even less visible in draft-faltstrom-unicode11-07. The draft and those issues has been discussed extensively in the recently-created I18n directorate and many, perhaps most, of the changes between -07 and -08 are the result of those discussions (the summary below might be consistent with those directorate discussions, but I'm not sure there is sufficient consensus there to make such a claim, so take the summary as my personal opinion). A bit of that perspective follows for those who have not been following IDNA or i18n issues closely; the IDNA-update list is copied in the hope that I (and Patrik and others) won't need to go through this too many more times. (1) This review of new Unicode versions and these IANA tables are inherently odd. Usually, when information is sent to IANA and put, by them, in a registry, the contents of that registry are considered the authoritative source of the information. As one of the older examples still in use, if there is a list of assigned port numbers floating around the Internet somewhere and the values in it are different from the values in the IANA registry ( https://www.iana.org/assignments/service-names-port-numbers/service-names-port-numbers.xhtml ), the IANA registry is authoritative and that list is simply wrong. That is not the case for these IDNA-related tables. For them, according to the IDNA2008 specs (and RFC 5892 in particular) the authoritative information for a particular application or implementation is to pick the version of Unicode that application or implementation is using (in theory, at a given instant if that is changing) and then calculate the derived properties as specified from RFC 5892, and then use that information (if the implementation needs a table, that is how it is supposed to get the table). The WG was persuaded, after what, IIR, was considerable demand, to create the IANA registry and put tables in it, but that does not make the IANA tables authoritative, nor do they distinguish between supported code points or supported versions of Unicode, etc. (2) In a more perfect world, the review called for by RFC 5892 and reflected in RFC 6452 and this I-D would not be necessary at all. Unicode would announce a new version, assorted entities would calculate tables for their use with that version, and everyone would go merrily on their way. The IDNA-update WG was painfully aware of the imperfection of the world and, for this particular case, was worried about two possibilities (both of which we hoped would be very, very rare). One was that, for a new version of Unicode, the Unicode Consortium would make changes in the properties or category values they assigned to particular code points in a way that would change the derived properties calculated by the RFC 5892 algorithm for those code points. This I-D primarily reflects a review designed to detect such changes. As I read RFC 5892, if such cases are detected, the normal response is to introduce additional backward compatibility exceptions into the list in RFC 5892 to preserve stability (Patrik reads that a bit differently than I do). The other option is to leave the exception list in 5892 unchanged, but that means that an application using Unicode version YY and tables corresponding to it (and possibly a current set of IANA tables) is not going to behave in a way that is completely consistent (except for code points not allowed earlier because they were unassigned) with an application using Unicode version XX and corresponding IDNA tables). Ultimately, the choice is whether, for a particular code point whose Unicode properties have changed, to maintain consistency with Unicode changes or to maintain consistency within implementations that calculated IDNA derived properties based on an earlier Unicode version and are now recalculating. The second possible problem, to which this I-D pays little attention, is one in which it is discovered that some action (such as assigning a new code point) or other discovery exposes an issue or other behavior that was not anticipated by IDNA2008. This is obviously a much more complicated problem, harder to review for and detect and much harder to figure out what to do with. It was, however, precisely the sort of situation that we discovered when reviewing the additions in Unicode 7.0. That review led to the 2015 IAB statement and to draft-klensin-idna-5892upd-unicode70. If the issue were just about one code point, we could either make it an exception or ignore it, and move on. However, it isn't and examining it led to a series of still-unresolved issues about assumptions IDNA2008 made about Unicode and its evolution. Since that discovery in 2014, time and Unicode versions have moved on and applications and libraries that are based on doing their own derived property calculations (as IDNA2008 requires) have diverged more and more from any assumption that the tables available from IANA are somehow "current" or that other inferences can be drawn from them and the version of Unicode they reference. (3) As long as there are no changes or issues of either of the types described in (2) above, a reasonable reading of RFC 5892 is that the Designated Expert shrugs his or her shoulders, passes a new table off to IANA (or validates a new table that IANA calculates) and moves on, with no report to IESG or I-D that is expected to become an RFC required. Viewed that way, RFC 6452 was published only to confirm that, for the first version of Unicode to appear after the IDNA2008 docs were finalized, things were working as predicted and no IETF action was required. draft-faltstrom-unicode11 is significant, less because several years have passed and we need to catch up (and maybe explain) but because, between Unicode 6.x and 11.0 (or 12.0) we've discovered examples of both changed derived properties for code points that existed before the relevant Unicode version and a case of discovering an "other problem" that opens one or more cans of worms. (4) Because the IDNA requirement is that applications calculate derived properties (or find and use an appropriate table) that corresponds to whatever version of Unicode they are using, IANA's having a registry that consists only of the table corresponding to one particular version of Unicode seems inappropriate, unwise, and maybe inconsistent with that provision of the standard. It is fairly clear to me that sorting the above out and clarifying things to the point that confusion is considerably reduced and expectations of the Designated Expert(s) are clear should now be a reasonably high priority. It is almost equally clear that putting those clarifications in the critical path in front of publication of draft-faltstrom-unicode11 (or -unicode12), much less getting relatively more current tables into IANS's hands, would be unwise pragmatically, however much more satisfying it might be procedurally. Specific suggestions about how this might be untangled, text and ideas about where to put it, etc., would be very welcome (at least by me). best, john --On Monday, March 18, 2019 00:31 -0700 Dan Romascanu via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Dan Romascanu > Review result: Ready with Issues > > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General > Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being > processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for > direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a > new version of the draft. > > For more information, please see the FAQ at > > . > > Document: draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 > Reviewer: Dan Romascanu > Review Date: 2019-03-18 > IETF LC End Date: 2019-03-05 > IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat > > Summary: > > This document is Ready. However, I have signaled one minor > issue in my LC review which was not addressed in the revision, > neither have I seen an answer to the clarification that I > requested (unless I missed some mail). > > Major issues: > > Minor issues: > > (from my previous review, not addressed) > > The IANA Considerations text is not clear to me. > >> IANA is requested to update the IDNA Parameters registry of >> derived > property values, after the expert reviewer validates that > the derived property values are calculated correctly. > > What does this exactly say? Are these recommendations for > future actions, or do they refer specifically to property > values described in this document? Are the expert reviewer > validation and IDNA Parameters registry update required to be > performed prior to approval of this document? > > Nits/editorial comments: > > From nobody Mon Mar 18 23:47:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607981274A1 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=netnod-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 703LGfcaJLxK for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4182A130F5B for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v22so10516908lje.9 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netnod-se.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version; bh=fyNP/toaJCPaln0CS7htrrFFDO5IAJxR2BNFVdgoh8Y=; b=DRj1n5odXPuXKeeSScZCQZ9zTacd/fLKgDLDWWt01suhRyz3llxZmNUDsGrnsZzwhh F7TlwinvtCzfGMpuXn0vmvM13/oRqAQ1q31P0xT5Jl4lfluLITJbhRuz4k7Eugg6dUWL 0btuMCIt4uILqt0DtUZShsgXFu3nE2RdrONWorLLzIp7bXmZ9Uqo/XG7CIWLUS5e9zgw L+bpK6G+DRDP+j90d0+JqZlmtzYTy6vtWV7f1RjDcYiFttl/jok0XZXqP8K0LBIcEtF9 pfLIocFYmszdjbsqPVbhx1g8xGBGkMjyHsxGPdzjVGbeXuMPO1WXxdX78ksS0uzxPlXM coVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version; bh=fyNP/toaJCPaln0CS7htrrFFDO5IAJxR2BNFVdgoh8Y=; b=lUNYf4cPL5z7zkl6CZaXry8yc+gGxMekF6Z13OjCBaBZI8MmGqygRoCi5Eur+YtGOi oro0zCymGSi42avbcRProqsyN93j5m+pV1UazDY1oaRg6bYX+I5buLflVGet1f/P78jc RimhXRFsSMko449SyVoHJ9Vryf78PXo8ivlSjyrJv9Cv59XO+8Xt0GvxqgcP2koT8Kid b973jb4SoSN2SSc7nhCDWZMm/MPQxs+gGX2CyOH5c3EUaYUoGDR9jQ4NJM3ixz/bhf/7 LjKT7R0NWvbbBKemBl009KwkrVZOdxKa/ayj9YEpYzbrP2ETdP4mQ01G69Q9tP5kbOrC Zbsg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXdwkzWOK7S2X7Om0QRthWAkD/qmA03IQ/CZhbV5mBPq4iK0LcK X/q5cHVetXUPS+/aKiO8GjlRgA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwLzPFoEk0bYPh0RaYIyQLdifK7sLLSGS5yZXBRyJ5I01CDpfLO5635asuXOAawDiu+manWtw== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6505:: with SMTP id z5mr13037797ljb.180.1552978024186; Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [77.72.226.235] ([2a01:3f0:1:0:b9d4:af54:930:b103]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y25sm2562602lja.61.2019.03.18.23.47.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Mar 2019 23:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=" To: "John C Klensin" Cc: "Dan Romascanu" , gen-art@ietf.org, draft-faltstrom-unicode11.all@ietf.org, "Alissa Cooper" , "Barry Leiba" , idna-update@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 07:47:01 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.12.4r5597) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> References: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=_MailMate_1EE76ECD-14DD-47D4-AD5D-791ADBD6DB6E_="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 06:47:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 3156 and 4880). --=_MailMate_1EE76ECD-14DD-47D4-AD5D-791ADBD6DB6E_= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 18 Mar 2019, at 18:21, John C Klensin wrote: > (2) In a more perfect world, the review called for by RFC 5892 and refl= ected in RFC 6452 and this I-D would not be necessary at all. Unicode wo= uld announce a new version, assorted entities would calculate tables for = their use with that version, and > everyone would go merrily on their way. The IDNA-update WG was painful= ly aware of the imperfection of the world and, for this particular case, = was worried about two possibilities (both of which we hoped would be very= , very rare). One was that, for a new version of Unicode, the Unicode Co= nsortium would make > changes in the properties or category values they assigned to particula= r code points in a way that would change the derived properties calculate= d by the RFC 5892 algorithm for those code points. This I-D primarily re= flects a review designed to detect such changes. As I read RFC 5892, if = such cases are detected, the normal response is to introduce additional b= ackward > compatibility exceptions into the list in RFC 5892 to preserve stabilit= y (Patrik reads that a bit differently than I do). Correct, and let me try to explain this in slightly different words. And = yes, we do read 5892 slightly differently, but I claim the outcome is the= same. Let me come back to that. 1. We MUST remember that it is the algorithm in 5892 that is normative. N= ot any table of derived property values. As John wrote which I agree with= , having IANA having a table with non-normative data was probably a very = bad idea. And maybe that registry should simply be removed. It just confu= ses people. If it confuses people on IESG, of course it confuses other pe= ople as well. Maybe the description of the table at IANA should be change= d? Let me think and discuss with IANA. 2. The whole idea with the algorithm was that the property values that th= e algorithm uses would never ever be changed as Unicode Consortium said t= hose would be stable. At least the property values IETF did use in the al= gorithm. So having the algorithm normative, and "just" let Unicode consor= tium release new versions of Unicode was EXACTLY one design criteria for = IDNA2008 that is vastly different from the "pick code points" that IDNA20= 03 did. 3. RFC 5892 was based on Unicode 5.2.0, and since then Unicode have relea= sed versions 6.0.0, 6.1.0, 6.2.0, 6.3.0, 7.0.0, 8.0.0, 9.0.0, 10.0.0, 11.= 0.0, 12.0.0 and a pre-relase of 12.1.0. Of all of these versions, two inc= lude incompatible changes: 6.0.0 and 11.0.0. 4. As John wrote, the simple solution for the IDNA2008 standard to move f= orward would be to change the algorithm so that the IDNA2008 algorithm wh= en applied to any Unicode version would produce the same result, and inde= ed did we think about that when doing RFC 5892. See section 2.7 . By adding code points and expli= cit derived property values to rule set [G], we would have backward compa= tibility. 5. When 6.0.0 was released, I as appointed expert did flag that for IETF = (I do not remember exactly how, but I might be able to dig up those email= messages) and after some discussions the conclusion was that rule set [G= ] should NOT be updated. I think I was convinced that at that time some s= oftware libraries where changed, and it was more important to get IDNA200= 8 out the door and we had the risk of two different incompatibilities: 5.1. If we added a rule to [G], the incompatibility would be between soft= ware packages that did use the original version of 5892 algorithm without= the added rule and the ones which did have the updated rule. 5.2. If we did not add a rule to [G], the incompatibility would be betwee= n software packages that calculated the derived property value on Unicode= 5.2.0 and the ones that did the calculation on 6.0.0. Ultimately [5.2] above did win, and that was explained in RFC 6452. And I= as the appointed expert and editor of 5892 I feel good having the discus= sion about this incompatible change that *would never happen* recorded in= 6452. 6. The fact it was an issue was of course also brought up to the Unicode = Consortium as I am (handy enough) also the liaison from IETF to Unicode C= onsortium. No response. They do push, as we know, TR#46 which is a differ= ent kind of animal than IDNA2008. Oh well. Things where fine, and we move= d on. And IETF could focus on what IETF really should focus on, to ensure= the algorithm itself was still "ok". I.e. without looking at individual = code points, but more in general terms, was IDNA2008 still good enough? L= ots of good feedback from people like Asmus that was fighting like mad (a= nd still is) trying to a. convince registries they MUST come up with a su= bset of IDNA2008 permissible code points when they decide what can be use= d in their zones and b. come up with processes and rules for how that wor= k should be done. Specifically work did go on for a long time regarding w= hat code points can be used in the root zone, i.e. for TLDs. This is mana= ged in the IAB document, and the Klensin draft about and more. 6. Now in version 11.0.0, the non-backward-compatible change happened aga= in. Sigh. I was at that time on my way to just give up, and recommend IET= F that what we do today, to reference something that we thought was norma= tive, stable etc (i.e. the Unicode Standard) did not work. That IETF inst= ead would pick up and use some relationship with ISO that should be forma= lized, and instead of referencing the Unicode Consortium IETF should refe= rence ISO, and then ISO should have in its rules that backward compatibil= ity would be a requirement. If then Unicode did ship something to ISO for= "approval", then ISO would say "no, try again" or else ISO would make a = process violation that members could appeal within ISO. But after sleepin= g on this for a bit, I felt the issue with 11.0.0 also happened with 7.0.= 0 and maybe one should first have a discussion within IETF again before t= he bolts are blown regarding relationship with Unicode Consortium. That j= ust started when the I18N directorate was closed, and I ended up in a voi= d. After long time, pushing and what not (lets discuss in the bar) this g= roup finally was created were this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE could be discussed,= and as John explained, there are many things to discuss, where we can bo= il it down to two: A. Should the non-backward compatible change in 11.0.0 result in a change= in rule [G] in RFC 5892, or should we accept a non-backward compatible c= hange? To trigger the discussing, I proposed the same result as for 7.0.0= , to NOT update [G], and simply accept it. This also because the next iss= ue is the important one. B. What should we do with IDNA2008? Obviously Unicode Standard is not sta= ble enough. Or is it? What should we do with review? Should we have to st= art do what Martin just did with 12.0.0? Do we IETF have the expertise? C= an we rely on individuals like Martin, Asmus, myself and John and very fe= w more to be around? Can we rely on Unicode Consortium? Is this the time = to instead move to ISO? Like keeping IDNA2008 algorithm BUT tie it to ISO= approved charset, and then ask ISO to protect the backward compatibility= ? Or are we done, so that we simply freeze IDN to a specific Unicode vers= ion, and simply ignore all added code points after that version? I.e. at = 5.2.0 we knew some interesting code points where still to be added, but a= fter 11.0.0? What I now know is that IESG have told me that we do have agreement in IE= TF on draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08.txt which implies moving to IDNA 11.0.= 0 without adding things to [G] is the path forward for now. What to do with 12.0.0 and future versions is still up in the air. See (some of) you in Prague. See you in the bar... Patrik --=_MailMate_1EE76ECD-14DD-47D4-AD5D-791ADBD6DB6E_= Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iGwEARECACwWIQT9vk6hwHOftrJkxVxtJBVNQL09owUCXJCQZQ4ccGFmQG5ldG5v ZC5zZQAKCRBtJBVNQL09o1t5AJ49o1CbiZ6R8S77sfKp7cDk3W1M2wCffKjZtkc9 q0RhZFzmlMmo1Sgm4Is= =wq09 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_MailMate_1EE76ECD-14DD-47D4-AD5D-791ADBD6DB6E_=-- From nobody Tue Mar 19 00:56:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idna-update@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAD6131222 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:55:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ix.netcom.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=asmusf@ix.netcom.com header.d=ix.netcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dW5vnc0QpwSX for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64D001311F8 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:55:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ix.netcom.com; s=dk12062016; t=1552982153; bh=mTr0NHz296NhuVLEwrtiQrVoNRG74B16ollr Pk/F4cY=; h=Received:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language: X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; b=cFlrSZ3bri7W7i1bsbjyNAw3LFb8zcl8o yv5QrMcbmHY/AjRsvYT2VWbdP1DmP37cBhLk6X4bAsuaQWGGIHv1VaPiBLHo6/67pwm 5wxrYBsrQlJSuHpQNJQFY7NC/bDmOl4F458Yvw+Iw9Jx8742CEXeZhf3BZEpZw3oeuO HxldwMEwTKfo0625E95jkJCR7f49YdqC4jl0hgZd/NRy7ND3ng4hsLCZk60x+lL+1/8 kZz//NmsVNB0BOr/gHDHNzLQtaGVaxJekgDfonXn1GR5BI1p7gcxljc2WOmefNDgP7X FVEaSie2WBlqJHhqGdWzBBM49ImWe/qI73rlPyLiw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk12062016; d=ix.netcom.com; b=nFTTm7cK7sWMzEX07MPA6Yf90CrwQscdE+QRUwmXIRPzrajHN82eYEYE3WYn0V50aDXOTXZRrGvSg9WRiTByfPDGz12s21rpnwot4uz0pSPgdikvbTX+GTSwJqQTuAbqEOlzGlsTELHxRbehOJnHVv4jtnnTBx0mMdWBEOgUtgu7oFwrXLxn8pnSoa0wZs7qNUiJwTzibNOrjan26LYO2hUF5NMMcMGl1O+qB7ykC8cEwUa0qdmm6HlpJ5GLtoovCGvqb2p3W/AYNzC0abNh0icglrELlNHnnpxvy05gSFatRVGzHSHz66/lUhzXLGIwvFU2K6iO84mmitui7e/dYw==; h=Received:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date:User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [97.113.245.20] (helo=[192.168.0.5]) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4) (envelope-from ) id 1h69bC-0008VH-Vd for idna-update@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 03:55:51 -0400 To: idna-update@ietf.org References: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> From: Asmus Freytag Message-ID: <6b149a8d-9102-ea1a-5048-b83842fc66c0@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:55:52 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------18282E60E7CBDB5E654C371B" Content-Language: en-US X-ELNK-Trace: 464f085de979d7246f36dc87813833b2817f643b8a0bc7e0ffdeec51713c504d68655cbb85248cb9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 97.113.245.20 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 07:56:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------18282E60E7CBDB5E654C371B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/18/2019 11:47 PM, Patrik F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m wrote: > 6. The fact it was an issue was of course also brought up to the Unicod= e Consortium as I am (handy enough) also the liaison from IETF to Unicode= Consortium. No response. They do push, as we know, TR#46 which is a diff= erent kind of animal than IDNA2008. Oh well. Things where fine, and we mo= ved on. And IETF could focus on what IETF really should focus on, to ensu= re the algorithm itself was still "ok". I.e. without looking at individua= l code points, but more in general terms, was IDNA2008 still good enough?= Lots of good feedback from people like Asmus that was fighting like mad = (and still is) trying to a. convince registries they MUST come up with a = subset of IDNA2008 permissible code points when they decide what can be u= sed in their zones and b. come up with processes and rules for how that w= ork should be done. Specifically work did go on for a long time regarding= what code points can be used in the root zone, i.e. for TLDs. This is ma= naged in the IAB document, and the Klensin draft about and more. > > 6. Now in version 11.0.0, the non-backward-compatible change happened a= gain. Sigh. I think its worth injecting some pragmatism here. We know that only about 35K code points out of 130K total are actually=20 used in someones orthography, where that someone is a speaker of a=20 language used for daily activities and with good intergenerational=20 transmission (=3D not likely to die out soon). All the other 100K code points are either symbols or punctuation or,=20 more often, code points that are recognized only by scholars. Very little activity in Unicode affects that first set of 35K code=20 points: future changes may be possible due to orthography reforms, as=20 well as some population acquiring widespread literacy for the first=20 time, but other than that, there's not much going on that needs new code = points. There's the occasional case where the properties for some of the = lesser used code points in this set may turn out to require corrections=20 as result of software implementations for these becoming more mainstream = and thus discovering issues. Generally, these affect languages where=20 digital deployment itself is still nascent; and only a small subset=20 potentially affects IDNA category. The upshot is that the practical effect of such activity in the margins=20 is effectively invisible. The overwhelming part of the additions and other changes are within the=20 remaining set of 100K specialized characters. These code points are=20 either misused for malicious registrations, relying on users'=20 unfamiliarity with these rare code points or of use only to specialized=20 audiences. The practical effect of any incompatibilities in that set is, again,=20 effectively minuscule; even given the realistic expectation that the=20 property data for these won't get rigorously tested in practical=20 applications and therefore could be found incorrect at some future point.= > I was at that time on my way to just give up, and recommend IETF that= what we do today, to reference something that we thought was normative, = stable etc (i.e. the Unicode Standard) did not work. That IETF instead wo= uld pick up and use some relationship with ISO that should be formalized,= and instead of referencing the Unicode Consortium IETF should reference = ISO, and then ISO should have in its rules that backward compatibility wo= uld be a requirement. This is a complete nonstarter. Nobody wins if we encourage the existence of two different encoding=20 standards - and the current process of cooperation works precisely=20 because it doesn't work the way it's sketched below. > If then Unicode did ship something to ISO for "approval", then ISO woul= d say "no, try again" or else ISO would make a process violation that mem= bers could appeal within ISO. But after sleeping on this for a bit, I fel= t the issue with 11.0.0 also happened with 7.0.0 and maybe one should fir= st have a discussion within IETF again before the bolts are blown regardi= ng relationship with Unicode Consortium. That just started when the I18N = directorate was closed, and I ended up in a void. After long time, pushin= g and what not (lets discuss in the bar) this group finally was created w= ere this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE could be discussed, and as John explained, th= ere are many things to discuss, where we can boil it down to two: > > A. Should the non-backward compatible change in 11.0.0 result in a chan= ge in rule [G] in RFC 5892, or should we accept a non-backward compatible= change? To trigger the discussing, I proposed the same result as for 7.0= =2E0, to NOT update [G], and simply accept it. This also because the next= issue is the important one. > > B. What should we do with IDNA2008? Obviously Unicode Standard is not s= table enough. Or is it? What should we do with review? Should we have to = start do what Martin just did with 12.0.0? what Martin did with Unicode 12.0.0 is what I call a sanity check. I=20 think it's a reasonable activity (if resources exist), but I would not=20 expect to find any issues that are of enough practical importance to=20 actually matter. (See above). > Do we IETF have the expertise? Can we rely on individuals like Martin= , Asmus, myself and John and very few more to be around? Can we rely on U= nicode Consortium? Is this the time to instead move to ISO? Like keeping = IDNA2008 algorithm BUT tie it to ISO approved charset, and then ask ISO t= o protect the backward compatibility? Or are we done, so that we simply f= reeze IDN to a specific Unicode version, and simply ignore all added code= points after that version? I.e. at 5.2.0 we knew some interesting code p= oints where still to be added, but after 11.0.0? > > What I now know is that IESG have told me that we do have agreement in = IETF on draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08.txt which implies moving to IDNA 11.= 0.0 without adding things to [G] is the path forward for now. > > What to do with 12.0.0 and future versions is still up in the air. I believe the correct answer is to have a very serious discussion on how = to help registries to make sure their support for the widely needed 35K=20 is more robust and not to get sidetracked by the vast wasteland of=20 obsolescent, obsolete, ancient or otherwise specialized use code points=20 (whether for liturgical, phonetic, or poetic usage). Continue to keep a watchful eye over the application of the algorithm=20 for future versions, but don't expect that any cases will rise to the=20 threshold where any exceptions need to be baked into the protocol - with = all the attendant issues for updating software libraries. But focus on solving issues that have at least practical impact. 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ix.netcom.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=asmusf@ix.netcom.com header.d=ix.netcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nGLzn4BtgSSg for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22864128CB7 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ix.netcom.com; s=dk12062016; t=1553012657; bh=eLlRxiJod103ydw0GmKiThiuFJAU2RmvPhjM 7d6NgGI=; h=Received:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language: X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; b=ML5W/OOpL9/Kteh3elC0lG6WP6petkT/X 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(Exim 4) (envelope-from ) id 1h6HXD-0003zK-AS; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:24:15 -0400 To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2e_D=c3=bcrst?= , "idna-update@ietf.org" References: <155289429627.26188.2047331005281292889@ietfa.amsl.com> <458987D953A5B3227D3A791F@PSB> <6b149a8d-9102-ea1a-5048-b83842fc66c0@ix.netcom.com> <3a7bd491-ab06-b8c7-9a8b-862c7a3cd122@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: "Asmus Freytag (c)" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:24:16 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3a7bd491-ab06-b8c7-9a8b-862c7a3cd122@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6AACA6683CA9CED6C163BD73" Content-Language: en-US X-ELNK-Trace: 464f085de979d7246f36dc87813833b2817f643b8a0bc7e0afe05bf059ccab462c25c9d5872177f3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 97.113.245.20 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:24:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6AACA6683CA9CED6C163BD73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/19/2019 3:19 AM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > In the 6.0.0 timeframe, there were both more actual changes (3), and > there was one change where we moved from PVALID to DISALLOWED, which I > personally think is the tougher one (see > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6452#section-1.3). And looking at the > code chart athttps://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1980.pdf, one may even > reasonably argue that keeping U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE would > have been the better choice, because when one compares U+19B1 NEW TAI > LUE VOWEL SIGN AA and U+19D1 NEW TAI LUE DIGIT ONE and finds them having > (at least on first approximation) the same glyph shape, one can easily > guess that U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM_DIGIT_ ONE is used (this is only a > quick conjection which would have to be confirmed) exactly in situations > where the distinction between letters and digits is important, of which > we know domain names are a good example. Here's a telling example of how a formal problem can be practically irrelevant: I looked up New Tai Lue on Omniglot: "The new script is used exclusively in Jinghong, so could be called the   New Jinghong Tai Lue script, and is used for shop and street signs. *Fe**w people can read it*. "   (Emphasis mine). If you read the full text you get the impression that the whole script represents a failed state-imposed "simplification". Unicode still needs to encode it, so that archival texts from the period between 1950 and 1980 can be encoded, but it's surely of no practical relevance for domain names. A./ --------------6AACA6683CA9CED6C163BD73 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 3/19/2019 3:19 AM, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
In the 6.0.0 timeframe, there were both more actual changes (3), and 
there was one change where we moved from PVALID to DISALLOWED, which I 
personally think is the tougher one (see 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6452#section-1.3). And looking at the 
code chart at https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1980.pdf, one may even 
reasonably argue that keeping U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE would 
have been the better choice, because when one compares U+19B1 NEW TAI 
LUE VOWEL SIGN AA and U+19D1 NEW TAI LUE DIGIT ONE and finds them having 
(at least on first approximation) the same glyph shape, one can easily 
guess that U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM _DIGIT_ ONE is used (this is only a 
quick conjection which would have to be confirmed) exactly in situations 
where the distinction between letters and digits is important, of which 
we know domain names are a good example.

Here's a telling example of how a formal problem can be practically irrelevant:

I looked up New Tai Lue on Omniglot:

"The new script is used exclusively in Jinghong, so could be called the
  New Jinghong Tai Lue script, and is used for shop and street signs.
 Few people can read it. "   (Emphasis mine).

If you read the full text you get the impression that the whole script
represents a failed state-imposed "simplification". Unicode still needs
to encode it, so that archival texts from the period between 1950 and 1980
can be encoded, but it's surely of no practical relevance for domain names.

A./

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<3a7bd491-ab06-b8c7-9a8b-862c7a3cd122@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <16668966-8378-0477-97df-df6b114a830a@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Asmus Freytag Message-ID: <0307c78e-0c15-a1b4-84f3-cb4203cb6cf3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 23:22:11 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5F454BE0E12E8A03A2DA1020" Content-Language: en-US X-ELNK-Trace: 464f085de979d7246f36dc87813833b2817f643b8a0bc7e04778f8996021d0d0c234e9c9dc3b7945350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 97.113.245.20 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idna-update] Genart telechat review of draft-faltstrom-unicode11-08 X-BeenThere: idna-update@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Internationalized Domain Names in Applications \(IDNA\) implementation and update discussions" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 06:22:13 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5F454BE0E12E8A03A2DA1020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Martin, The property gc=Nd is used by software identifying strings of characters that can be parsed as decimal numbers using offsets. That was implicit in the initial design but not made explicit until the first exceptions started to show up with new characters. It is indeed the case that this new code point would have made a fine one to use in domain names. Possibly better than the 'standard' digit one that is used in running numbers, because that looks like a letter (a common issue for digits, just think of l and 1 and o and 0, but here the similarities are far more striking). However, the decision to omit this code point isn't the end of the world for domain names. Given what is available today as information about usage, any practical impact may be rather limited; the population is reported highly literate, but the sources admit that this may reflect literacy in the dominant surrounding language. And an unknown and by some indication growing fraction writes the old script. One thing that I find is that the information available for many scripts with at least some modern use is generally getting better long after they have been encoded. This should be a useful reminder that striving for absolute perfection here is a fool's errand. A./ On 3/19/2019 10:19 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Sorry I forgot to mention it, but I think the change of the Unicode > property for U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE happened because the > General_Category value "Nd" was tightened to only apply to consecutive > decimal digits that start with zero. See > https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode12.0.0/ch04.pdf, page 175: > > >>>> > The Numeric_Type = Decimal property value (which is correlated with the > General_Category = Nd property value) is limited to those numeric > characters that are used in decimal-radix numbers and for which a full > set of digits has been encoded in a contiguous range, with ascending > order of Numeric_Value, and with the digit zero as the first code point > in the range. > >>>> > > Either the tightening must have happened in the 6.0.0 timeframe, or > U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE was originally classified wrongly. > > Anyway, the DNS doesn't need decimal digits to be in a contiguous block > starting with zero. --------------5F454BE0E12E8A03A2DA1020 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Martin,

The property gc=Nd is used by software identifying strings of characters that can be parsed as decimal numbers using offsets. That was implicit in the initial design but not made explicit until the first exceptions started to show up with new characters.

It is indeed the case that this new code point would have made a fine one to use in domain names. Possibly better than the 'standard' digit one that is used in running numbers, because that looks like a letter (a common issue for digits, just think of l and 1 and o and 0, but here the similarities are far more striking).

However, the decision to omit this code point isn't the end of the world for domain names. Given what is available today as information about usage, any practical impact may be rather limited; the population is reported highly literate, but the sources admit that this may reflect literacy in the dominant surrounding language. And an unknown and by some indication growing fraction writes the old script.

One thing that I find is that the information available for many scripts with at least some modern use is generally getting better long after they have been encoded. This should be a useful reminder that striving for absolute perfection here is a fool's errand.

A./

On 3/19/2019 10:19 PM, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
Sorry I forgot to mention it, but I think the change of the Unicode 
property for U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE happened because the 
General_Category value "Nd" was tightened to only apply to consecutive 
decimal digits that start with zero. See 
https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode12.0.0/ch04.pdf, page 175:

 >>>>
The Numeric_Type = Decimal property value (which is correlated with the 
General_Category = Nd property value) is limited to those numeric 
characters that are used in decimal-radix numbers and for which a full 
set of digits has been encoded in a contiguous range, with ascending 
order of Numeric_Value, and with the digit zero as the first code point 
in the range.
 >>>>

Either the tightening must have happened in the 6.0.0 timeframe, or 
U+19DA NEW TAI LUE THAM DIGIT ONE was originally classified wrongly.

Anyway, the DNS doesn't need decimal digits to be in a contiguous block 
starting with zero.


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