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IETF 96 is drawing near.  For those who would like to present at IETF 96,
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From: amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 12:25:25 -0700
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Subject: [Idr]  Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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Hey All,

We are looking for your comments on the new draft
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/

We would really appreciate any comments and questions about the document.

Best Regards,

Amit Bhagat

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hey Al=
l,<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We ar=
e looking for your comments on the new draft <a href=3D"https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/</a><br><br></span><pre><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:verdana,sans-serif">We would really appreciate any comments and questions=
 about the document.
=20
Best Regards,<br></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-=
serif">Amit Bhagat<br></span></pre><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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Hi Amit,

In an essence it seems that your proposal is just a subset of "Graceful BGP
session shutdown" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06.

Can you clarify how your encoding is any better then proposed by Pierre's,
et al. G-Shut community?

Why do you need a new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community or
attribute and send it over existing SAFIs ?

How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP sessions
(case of core or edge line card replacement) ?

What is the use case to not use "global" mode .. ie. when do you envision
need to signal overload for only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP
speaker ?

Many Thx,
Robert.


On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey All,
>
> We are looking for your comments on the new draft
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/
>
> We would really appreciate any comments and questions about the document.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Amit Bhagat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>
>

--001a114a733c5e20d00536e89bc5
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">In an essence it seems that your proposal is just a =
subset of &quot;<span style=3D"font-size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-family:ar=
ial,sans-serif">Graceful BGP session shutdown&quot;</span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-weight:bold;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=
=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gsh=
ut-06">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06</a>.=C2=A0<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify how yo=
ur encoding is any better then proposed by Pierre&#39;s, et al. G-Shut comm=
unity?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Why do yo=
u need a new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community or attribute=
 and send it over existing SAFIs ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions f=
rom EBGP sessions (case of core or edge line card replacement) ?=C2=A0</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">What is the use case to no=
t use &quot;global&quot; mode .. ie. when do you envision need to signal ov=
erload for only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP speaker ?</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many Thx,<br>Robert.</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hey All,<br><br></=
span></div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We are looking fo=
r your comments on the new draft <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/</a><br><br></span><pre><span style=3D"font=
-family:verdana,sans-serif">We would really appreciate any comments and que=
stions about the document.
=20
Best Regards,<br></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-=
serif">Amit Bhagat<br></span></pre><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 15:12:48 -0700
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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--001a11c10850da391e0536eac0c7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for your comments.

Initially, I thought about using a community but that would mean putting
all NLRIs in the Update message. This could also mean a different Update
per-neighbor/per-peergroup.

re: G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft, it seems to be
targeting a single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual
configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update
that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any
BGP attributes.

re: new SAFI - The reason for requesting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI
encoding can be defined to keep it simple. The existing SAFI would require
adding NLRIs to the Update message.

re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify IBGP or EBGP
session? Perhaps I am missing something.

re: Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple links
to different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it might
be just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL traffic.

Additionally, one of the other use cases I am thinking of is when a BGP
speaker drops its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can
advertise itself as "Overloaded". This can help avoid congestion. Agreed,
this can also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it
should not be a problem due to multiple paths.

Again, thanks for reviewing.

Amit.

On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Amit,
>
> In an essence it seems that your proposal is just a subset of "Graceful
> BGP session shutdown"
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06.
>
> Can you clarify how your encoding is any better then proposed by Pierre's,
> et al. G-Shut community?
>
> Why do you need a new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community or
> attribute and send it over existing SAFIs ?
>
> How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP sessions
> (case of core or edge line card replacement) ?
>
> What is the use case to not use "global" mode .. ie. when do you envision
> need to signal overload for only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP
> speaker ?
>
> Many Thx,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey All,
>>
>> We are looking for your comments on the new draft
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/
>>
>> We would really appreciate any comments and questions about the document.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Amit Bhagat
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Idr mailing list
>> Idr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>>
>>
>

--001a11c10850da391e0536eac0c7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></div>Many than=
ks for your comments.<br><br></div>Initially, I thought about using a commu=
nity but that would mean putting all NLRIs in the Update message. This coul=
d also mean a different Update per-neighbor/per-peergroup.<br><br></div>re:=
 G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft, it seems to be targeting =
a=20
single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual=20
configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update=
 that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any B=
GP attributes.<br><br></div></div><div>re: new SAFI - The reason for reques=
ting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI encoding can be defined to keep it si=
mple. The existing SAFI would require adding NLRIs to the Update message.<b=
r><br></div><div>re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify =
IBGP or EBGP session? Perhaps I am missing something.<br><br></div><div>re:=
 Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple links to=
 different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it might b=
e just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL traffic. =
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, one of the other use cases I am=
 thinking of is when a BGP speaker drops=20
its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can advertise=20
itself as &quot;Overloaded&quot;. This can help avoid congestion. Agreed, t=
his can
 also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it=20
should not be a problem due to multiple paths.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>Again, thanks for reviewing.<br><br></div><div>Amit.<br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at =
12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@rasz=
uk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In an essence it seems that=
 your proposal is just a subset of &quot;<span style=3D"font-size:1em;line-=
height:0pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Graceful BGP session shutdown&quot=
;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-weight:bold;font-=
family:arial,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06</a>.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">Can you clarify how your encoding is any better then p=
roposed by Pierre&#39;s, et al. G-Shut community?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Why do you need a new SAFI for it ? Would=
 it be easier to use community or attribute and send it over existing SAFIs=
 ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">How in your e=
ncoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP sessions (case of core =
or edge line card replacement) ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small">What is the use case to not use &quot;global&quot; mode ..=
 ie. when do you envision need to signal overload for only subset of AFI/SA=
FIs carried by given BGP speaker ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Many Thx,<br>Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><=
div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,s=
ans-serif">Hey All,<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,=
sans-serif">We are looking for your comments on the new draft <a href=3D"ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/" target=3D"_blank=
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/</a><br><br></=
span><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We would really ap=
preciate any comments and questions about the document.
=20
Best Regards,<br></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-=
serif">Amit Bhagat<br></span></pre><br></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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Hi Amit,

Thank you for follow-up.

One thing which perhaps needs to be addressed is how this (and few other
recent proposals) is relates to Internet BGP vs L3 Clos DC fabric BGP. If
your problem description is limited just to the latter due to inherent ECMP
such message needs to only go one hop - so even a simple ORF extension will
do just fine.

Few years back BGP was stretched in one direction to accommodate carrying
VPN information in WANs. Now I see it being more and more stretched in the
opposite direction to accommodate various use case for DC underlay routing.

And I think we all can realize what happens when you take even best
material and stretch it with sufficient force in opposite directions :).

As far as this draft to me what would be the best envelope for the
information is really a new BGP message type .. BGP Operational Message.
The work on that started few years back but were a bit put on hold.

Defining new SAFI and making spagetti of SAFI-X to SAFI-Y operational
inter-dependency kills the ability to separate SAFI dependent code from AF
generic processing.

Now if your use case is just about Clos topology in a given DC why not to
use MED or LocalPref depending if your fabric is eBGP or iBGP based ? Is
really re-advertisement of underlay routes such an issue ?

Best regards,
R.






On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:12 AM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Many thanks for your comments.
>
> Initially, I thought about using a community but that would mean putting
> all NLRIs in the Update message. This could also mean a different Update
> per-neighbor/per-peergroup.
>
> re: G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft, it seems to be
> targeting a single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual
> configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update
> that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any
> BGP attributes.
>
> re: new SAFI - The reason for requesting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI
> encoding can be defined to keep it simple. The existing SAFI would require
> adding NLRIs to the Update message.
>
> re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify IBGP or EBGP
> session? Perhaps I am missing something.
>
> re: Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple
> links to different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it
> might be just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL
> traffic.
>
> Additionally, one of the other use cases I am thinking of is when a BGP
> speaker drops its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can
> advertise itself as "Overloaded". This can help avoid congestion. Agreed,
> this can also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it
> should not be a problem due to multiple paths.
>
> Again, thanks for reviewing.
>
> Amit.
>
> On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Amit,
>>
>> In an essence it seems that your proposal is just a subset of "Graceful
>> BGP session shutdown"
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06.
>>
>> Can you clarify how your encoding is any better then proposed by
>> Pierre's, et al. G-Shut community?
>>
>> Why do you need a new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community
>> or attribute and send it over existing SAFIs ?
>>
>> How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP sessions
>> (case of core or edge line card replacement) ?
>>
>> What is the use case to not use "global" mode .. ie. when do you envision
>> need to signal overload for only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP
>> speaker ?
>>
>> Many Thx,
>> Robert.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey All,
>>>
>>> We are looking for your comments on the new draft
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/
>>>
>>> We would really appreciate any comments and questions about the document.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Amit Bhagat
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Idr mailing list
>>> Idr@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>>>
>>>
>>
>

--001a113fbed26f00670536eb168e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Thank you for follow-up.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">One thing which perhaps needs to be address=
ed is how this (and few other recent proposals) is relates to Internet BGP =
vs L3 Clos DC fabric BGP. If your problem description is limited just to th=
e latter due to inherent ECMP such message needs to only go one hop - so ev=
en a simple ORF extension will do just fine.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small">Few years back BGP was stretched in one direct=
ion to accommodate carrying VPN information in WANs. Now I see it being mor=
e and more stretched in the opposite direction to accommodate various use c=
ase for DC underlay routing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">And I think we all can realize what happens when you take eve=
n best material and stretch it with sufficient force in opposite directions=
 :).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as t=
his draft to me what would be the best envelope for the information is real=
ly a new BGP message type .. BGP Operational Message. The work on that star=
ted few years back but were a bit put on hold.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">Defining new SAFI and making spagetti of SAF=
I-X to SAFI-Y operational inter-dependency kills the ability to separate SA=
FI dependent code from AF generic processing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now if your use case is just about Clos topol=
ogy in a given DC why not to use MED or LocalPref depending if your fabric =
is eBGP or iBGP based ? Is really re-advertisement of underlay routes such =
an issue ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best =
regards,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:12 AM, amit bhagat <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>scet.amit@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></div>Many th=
anks for your comments.<br><br></div>Initially, I thought about using a com=
munity but that would mean putting all NLRIs in the Update message. This co=
uld also mean a different Update per-neighbor/per-peergroup.<br><br></div>r=
e: G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft, it seems to be targetin=
g a=20
single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual=20
configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update=
 that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any B=
GP attributes.<br><br></div></div><div>re: new SAFI - The reason for reques=
ting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI encoding can be defined to keep it si=
mple. The existing SAFI would require adding NLRIs to the Update message.<b=
r><br></div><div>re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify =
IBGP or EBGP session? Perhaps I am missing something.<br><br></div><div>re:=
 Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple links to=
 different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it might b=
e just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL traffic. =
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, one of the other use cases I am=
 thinking of is when a BGP speaker drops=20
its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can advertise=20
itself as &quot;Overloaded&quot;. This can help avoid congestion. Agreed, t=
his can
 also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it=20
should not be a problem due to multiple paths.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>Again, thanks for reviewing.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><div>Amit.<br></div></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, J=
ul 5, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In an essence=
 it seems that your proposal is just a subset of &quot;<span style=3D"font-=
size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Graceful BGP session=
 shutdown&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-wei=
ght:bold;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06" target=3D"_blank">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06</a>.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify how your encoding is any=
 better then proposed by Pierre&#39;s, et al. G-Shut community?=C2=A0</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Why do you need a new SAFI =
for it ? Would it be easier to use community or attribute and send it over =
existing SAFIs ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
>How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP sessions =
(case of core or edge line card replacement) ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">What is the use case to not use &quot;global=
&quot; mode .. ie. when do you envision need to signal overload for only su=
bset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP speaker ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Many Thx,<br>Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><div>On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Hey =
All,<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We =
are looking for your comments on the new draft <a href=3D"https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/" target=3D"_blank">https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/</a><br><br></span><pre><span=
 style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We would really appreciate any co=
mments and questions about the document.
=20
Best Regards,<br></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-=
serif">Amit Bhagat<br></span></pre><br></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 16:08:05 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Robert,

I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to
encompass various use cases.

However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet and
DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP topology
agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a bigger blast
radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate implementation of the
feature can provide good benefits.

Thanks.
Amit

On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Amit,
>
> Thank you for follow-up.
>
> One thing which perhaps needs to be addressed is how this (and few other
> recent proposals) is relates to Internet BGP vs L3 Clos DC fabric BGP. If
> your problem description is limited just to the latter due to inherent ECMP
> such message needs to only go one hop - so even a simple ORF extension will
> do just fine.
>
> Few years back BGP was stretched in one direction to accommodate carrying
> VPN information in WANs. Now I see it being more and more stretched in the
> opposite direction to accommodate various use case for DC underlay routing.
>
> And I think we all can realize what happens when you take even best
> material and stretch it with sufficient force in opposite directions :).
>
> As far as this draft to me what would be the best envelope for the
> information is really a new BGP message type .. BGP Operational Message.
> The work on that started few years back but were a bit put on hold.
>
> Defining new SAFI and making spagetti of SAFI-X to SAFI-Y operational
> inter-dependency kills the ability to separate SAFI dependent code from AF
> generic processing.
>
> Now if your use case is just about Clos topology in a given DC why not to
> use MED or LocalPref depending if your fabric is eBGP or iBGP based ? Is
> really re-advertisement of underlay routes such an issue ?
>
> Best regards,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:12 AM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> Many thanks for your comments.
>>
>> Initially, I thought about using a community but that would mean putting
>> all NLRIs in the Update message. This could also mean a different Update
>> per-neighbor/per-peergroup.
>>
>> re: G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft, it seems to be
>> targeting a single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual
>> configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update
>> that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any
>> BGP attributes.
>>
>> re: new SAFI - The reason for requesting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI
>> encoding can be defined to keep it simple. The existing SAFI would require
>> adding NLRIs to the Update message.
>>
>> re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify IBGP or EBGP
>> session? Perhaps I am missing something.
>>
>> re: Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple
>> links to different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it
>> might be just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL
>> traffic.
>>
>> Additionally, one of the other use cases I am thinking of is when a BGP
>> speaker drops its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can
>> advertise itself as "Overloaded". This can help avoid congestion. Agreed,
>> this can also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it
>> should not be a problem due to multiple paths.
>>
>> Again, thanks for reviewing.
>>
>> Amit.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Amit,
>>>
>>> In an essence it seems that your proposal is just a subset of "Graceful
>>> BGP session shutdown"
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06.
>>>
>>> Can you clarify how your encoding is any better then proposed by
>>> Pierre's, et al. G-Shut community?
>>>
>>> Why do you need a new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community
>>> or attribute and send it over existing SAFIs ?
>>>
>>> How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP
>>> sessions (case of core or edge line card replacement) ?
>>>
>>> What is the use case to not use "global" mode .. ie. when do you
>>> envision need to signal overload for only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by
>>> given BGP speaker ?
>>>
>>> Many Thx,
>>> Robert.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey All,
>>>>
>>>> We are looking for your comments on the new draft
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/
>>>>
>>>> We would really appreciate any comments and questions about the document.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Amit Bhagat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Idr mailing list
>>>> Idr@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--94eb2c048d24901dd40536eb86c8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></div>I agree that r=
ecently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to encompass various =
use cases.<br><br></div>However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful=
 for both, Internet and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drai=
n procedure BGP topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree=
, BGP has a bigger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriat=
e implementation of the feature can provide good benefits.<br><br></div>Tha=
nks.<br></div>Amit<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">Thank you for follow-up.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">One thing which perhaps needs to be addressed is how this (a=
nd few other recent proposals) is relates to Internet BGP vs L3 Clos DC fab=
ric BGP. If your problem description is limited just to the latter due to i=
nherent ECMP such message needs to only go one hop - so even a simple ORF e=
xtension will do just fine.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Few years back BGP was stretched in one direction to accommod=
ate carrying VPN information in WANs. Now I see it being more and more stre=
tched in the opposite direction to accommodate various use case for DC unde=
rlay routing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">An=
d I think we all can realize what happens when you take even best material =
and stretch it with sufficient force in opposite directions :).=C2=A0</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as this draft to me =
what would be the best envelope for the information is really a new BGP mes=
sage type .. BGP Operational Message. The work on that started few years ba=
ck but were a bit put on hold.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">Defining new SAFI and making spagetti of SAFI-X to SAFI-Y op=
erational inter-dependency kills the ability to separate SAFI dependent cod=
e from AF generic processing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Now if your use case is just about Clos topology in a given D=
C why not to use MED or LocalPref depending if your fabric is eBGP or iBGP =
based ? Is really re-advertisement of underlay routes such an issue ?=C2=A0=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best regards,</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small">=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 1=
2:12 AM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>Hi Robe=
rt,<br><br></div>Many thanks for your comments.<br><br></div>Initially, I t=
hought about using a community but that would mean putting all NLRIs in the=
 Update message. This could also mean a different Update per-neighbor/per-p=
eergroup.<br><br></div>re: G-shut community - Reading through G-shut draft,=
 it seems to be targeting a=20
single use case - maintenance. Additionally, it requires manual=20
configuration of route-policies. The way I envision this is a simple Update=
 that is applicable to all peers; no need to worry about manipulating any B=
GP attributes.<br><br></div></div><div>re: new SAFI - The reason for reques=
ting a new SAFI is so that a new NLRI encoding can be defined to keep it si=
mple. The existing SAFI would require adding NLRIs to the Update message.<b=
r><br></div><div>re: BGP session distinction - Is there a need to identify =
IBGP or EBGP session? Perhaps I am missing something.<br><br></div><div>re:=
 Global mode - the use case would be if a BGP speaker has multiple links to=
 different peers and running different AFI/SAFI pairs per links, it might b=
e just easy to drain a particular type of traffic rather than ALL traffic. =
<br></div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, one of the other use cases I am=
 thinking of is when a BGP speaker drops=20
its Established neighbor-count below a threshold, it can advertise=20
itself as &quot;Overloaded&quot;. This can help avoid congestion. Agreed, t=
his can
 also be the cause of network outage, but within a CLOS fabric, it=20
should not be a problem due to multiple paths.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>Again, thanks for reviewing.<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br></font><=
/span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Amit.<br></div></font></span=
></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In a=
n essence it seems that your proposal is just a subset of &quot;<span style=
=3D"font-size:1em;line-height:0pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Graceful BG=
P session shutdown&quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1em;line-height:0pt=
;font-weight:bold;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-bgp-gshut-06</a>.=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify how your encodi=
ng is any better then proposed by Pierre&#39;s, et al. G-Shut community?=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Why do you need a =
new SAFI for it ? Would it be easier to use community or attribute and send=
 it over existing SAFIs ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small">How in your encoding one can distinguish IBGP sessions from EBGP =
sessions (case of core or edge line card replacement) ?=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">What is the use case to not use &qu=
ot;global&quot; mode .. ie. when do you envision need to signal overload fo=
r only subset of AFI/SAFIs carried by given BGP speaker ?</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many Thx,<br>Robert.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div><div>On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 9:25 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans=
-serif">Hey All,<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,san=
s-serif">We are looking for your comments on the new draft <a href=3D"https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bhagat-bgp-overload/</a><br><br></spa=
n><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">We would really appre=
ciate any comments and questions about the document.
=20
Best Regards,<br></span></pre><pre><span style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-=
serif">Amit Bhagat<br></span></pre><br></div>
<br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c048d24901dd40536eb86c8--


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From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
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This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.  The WG has adopted this
draft.  

The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this draft.   The authors should
indicate whether they know of IPR on this draft.   After we receive all the
IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.  

Sue Hares and John Scudder. 


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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for =
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.&nbsp; The WG has adopted =
this draft.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
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on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;After we receive all the IPR statements, the =
authors will be able to upload this as =
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style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
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From: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "uttaro@att.com" <uttaro@att.com>, "'Bruno Decraene'" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
Thread-Index: AQHR1xofQA6BrIY5ZEmYcC2sVJZtqw==
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 00:05:36 +0000
Message-ID: <D3A19933.45D98%keyupate@cisco.com>
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I am not aware of any IPR related to this document.

Regards,
Keyur

From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com<mailto:shares@ndzh.com>>
Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 1:27 AM
To: "idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>" <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>=
, Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>>, "uttaro@att.=
com<mailto:uttaro@att.com>" <uttaro@att.com<mailto:uttaro@att.com>>, 'Bruno=
 Decraene' <bruno.decraene@orange.com<mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com>>, "=
'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com<mailto:wim.hender=
ickx@nokia.com>>, "jhaas@pfrc.org<mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org>" <jhaas@pfrc.org<m=
ailto:jhaas@pfrc.org>>
Cc: "'John G. Scudder'" <jgs@juniper.net<mailto:jgs@juniper.net>>
Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announce=
ment - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)

This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-=
announcement.  The WG has adopted this draft.
The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this draft.   The authors should =
indicate whether they know of IPR on this draft.   After we receive all the=
 IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as draft-ietf-idr-=
bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.
Sue Hares and John Scudder.

--_000_D3A1993345D98keyupateciscocom_
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e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>I am not aware of any IPR related to this document.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:shares@ndzh.com">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, July 6, 2016 at 1:=
27 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@iet=
f.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;, Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com">keyupate=
@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:uttaro@att.com">uttaro@att.com<=
/a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uttaro@att.com">uttaro@att.com</a>&gt;, 'Bruno Decra=
ene' &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com">bruno.decraene@orange=
.com</a>&gt;, &quot;'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com">wim.henderickx@nokia.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;'John G. Scudder'&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jgs@juniper.net">jgs@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of d=
raft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6=
 to 6/20)
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call =
for draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.&nbsp; The WG has adopted=
 this draft.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"color:black">The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call=
 on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;The authors should indicate whether they know o=
f IPR on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;After we receive all the
 IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as draft-ietf-idr-=
bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "uttaro@att.com" <uttaro@att.com>, "'Bruno Decraene'" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, "jhaas@pfrc.org" <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "'John G. Scudder'" <jgs@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20) 
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Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 07:17:33 +0000
Message-ID: <12045_1467789454_577CB08E_12045_1818_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F92D34C@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Cc: "'Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)'" <keyupate@cisco.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
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Hi Sue, John,

I'm not aware of IPR related to this draft.

Regards,
-- Bruno

From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 1:27 AM
To: idr@ietf.org; 'Keyur Patel (keyupate)'; uttaro@att.com; DECRAENE Bruno =
IMT/OLN; 'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'; jhaas@pfrc.org
Cc: 'John G. Scudder'
Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announce=
ment - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)

This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-=
announcement.  The WG has adopted this draft.
The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this draft.   The authors should =
indicate whether they know of IPR on this draft.   After we receive all the=
 IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as draft-ietf-idr-=
bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.
Sue Hares and John Scudder.

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Sue,=
 John,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">I&#8217=
;m not aware of IPR related to this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Regards=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">-- Brun=
o<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
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4.0pt">
<div>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Susan Ha=
res [mailto:shares@ndzh.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 06, 2016 1:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> idr@ietf.org; 'Keyur Patel (keyupate)'; uttaro@att.com; DECRAENE=
 Bruno IMT/OLN; 'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'; jhaas@pfrc.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'John G. Scudder'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-a=
nnouncement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">This ends the 2 week WG=
 Adoption call for draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.&nbsp; The=
 WG has adopted this draft.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">The Co-chairs forgot to=
 do an IPR call on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;The authors should indicate whet=
her they know of IPR on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;After we receive
 all the IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as draft-i=
etf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Sue Hares and John Scud=
der.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<PRE>______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
</PRE></body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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--001a113fbed20d775e0536f29b78
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Hi Amit,

I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to
> encompass various use cases.
>
> However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet an=
d
> DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP topolo=
gy
> agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a bigger blas=
t
> radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate implementation of the
> feature can provide good benefits.
>


=E2=80=8BI don't think =E2=80=8Bthis is about "blast radius". ISIS or OSPF =
are link state
protocols and each node in the given flooding scope computes its
independent SPF hence flooding such information is a necessity for
consistent forwarding.

Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each BGP speaker
recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use case you
have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way to a bgp peer(s)
that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a given SAFI.

You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to point
signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of signalling
choice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such NLRIs around ?
It would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric will leak it and it
breaks entire fabric - wouldn't you agree ? You at very min MUST enforce
the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which currently your
draft seems to be missing.

There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:

- using flag in dynamic capabilities
- local poisoning of next hops
- use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)
- use of G-shut community

or simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths
learned are removed and best path (or multipath) recomputed. The potential
"hit" would be on re-enabling it such that you need readvertise your
underlay again.

It is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwarding can continue till
everyone around stops sending you packets in a given table_id
(corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down).

Many thx,
R.

--001a113fbed20d775e0536f29b78
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I agree that recently BGP is =
being stretched towards DC-fabric side to encompass various use cases.<br><=
br></div>However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Inte=
rnet and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP=
 topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a big=
ger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate implementatio=
n of the feature can provide good benefits.<br></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=
=80=8BI don&#39;t think =E2=80=8Bthis is about &quot;blast radius&quot;. IS=
IS or OSPF are link state protocols and each node in the given flooding sco=
pe computes its independent SPF hence flooding such information is a necess=
ity for consistent forwarding.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each=
 BGP speaker recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use=
 case you have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way to a b=
gp peer(s) that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a gi=
ven SAFI.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">You de=
fined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to point signa=
lling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of signalling choice fo=
r this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such NLRIs around ? It would=
 be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric will leak it and it breaks =
entire fabric - wouldn&#39;t you agree ? You at very min MUST enforce the N=
O-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which currently your draft se=
ems to be missing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l">There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:=C2=A0</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- using flag in dynamic =
capabilities=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- local poisoning of next hops=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max me=
tric:)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of G-shut community=C2=A0</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">or simply shutting the SAFIs. Wh=
en you shut SAFI in one shot all paths learned are removed and best path (o=
r multipath) recomputed. The potential &quot;hit&quot; would be on re-enabl=
ing it such that you need readvertise your underlay again.=C2=A0</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">It is gracefull (no packet drops=
) as local forwarding can continue till everyone around stops sending you p=
ackets in a given table_id (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down)=
.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many thx,<br>R=
.</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a113fbed20d775e0536f29b78--


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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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References: <068e01d1d714$c3002760$49007620$@ndzh.com> <12045_1467789454_577CB08E_12045_1818_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A0F92D34C@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
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Bruno, Keyur, and Wim: 

 

Thank you for your IPR Statements.  We simply need the Jim Uttaro and Jeff
Haas to respond to this email. 

 

Sue 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2016 3:18 AM
To: Susan Hares; 'John G. Scudder'
Cc: idr@ietf.org; 'Keyur Patel (keyupate)'; uttaro@att.com; 'Henderickx, Wim
(Nokia - BE)'; jhaas@pfrc.org
Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6
to 6/20) 

 

Hi Sue, John,

 

I'm not aware of IPR related to this draft.

 

Regards,

-- Bruno

 

From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 1:27 AM
To: idr@ietf.org; 'Keyur Patel (keyupate)'; uttaro@att.com; DECRAENE Bruno
IMT/OLN; 'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'; jhaas@pfrc.org
Cc: 'John G. Scudder'
Subject: RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6
to 6/20) 

 

This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.  The WG has adopted this
draft.  

The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this draft.   The authors should
indicate whether they know of IPR on this draft.   After we receive all the
IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.  

Sue Hares and John Scudder. 

____________________________________________________________________________
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Bruno, Keyur, and Wim: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thank you for your IPR =
Statements.&nbsp; We simply need the Jim Uttaro and Jeff Haas to respond =
to this email. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Sue =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 6, 2016 3:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Susan =
Hares; 'John G. Scudder'<br><b>Cc:</b> idr@ietf.org; 'Keyur Patel =
(keyupate)'; uttaro@att.com; 'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'; =
jhaas@pfrc.org<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of =
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call =
(6/6 to 6/20) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Hi Sue, John,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;m not aware of =
IPR related to this draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>-- =
Bruno<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Susan =
Hares [<a href=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com">mailto:shares@ndzh.com</a>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 06, 2016 1:27 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>; 'Keyur Patel (keyupate)'; =
<a href=3D"mailto:uttaro@att.com">uttaro@att.com</a>; DECRAENE Bruno =
IMT/OLN; 'Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE)'; <a =
href=3D"mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org">jhaas@pfrc.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> 'John G. =
Scudder'<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Idr] WG Adoption of =
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call =
(6/6 to 6/20) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for =
draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.&nbsp; The WG has adopted =
this draft.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this =
draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;The authors should indicate whether they know of IPR =
on this draft. &nbsp;&nbsp;After we receive all the IPR statements, the =
authors will be able to upload this as =
draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Sue Hares and John Scudder. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des =
informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent =
donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>This =
message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by =
law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
lang=3DFR>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages =
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falsified.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=3DFR>Thank =
you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0464_01D1D739.22CC7F30--


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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-gredler-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-03.txt
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Added extensions for prefix attributes as defined in RFC7794.

Also, the authors believe this draft is ready for WG item adoption consider=
ation.

s.



> On Jul 6, 2016, at 2:57 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gredler-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Stefano Previdi and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-gredler-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-ext
> Revision:	03
> Title:		BGP Link-State extensions for Segment Routing
> Document date:	2016-07-06
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		33
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gredler-idr-bg=
p-ls-segment-routing-ext-03.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gredler-idr-bgp-ls=
-segment-routing-ext/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gredler-idr-bgp-ls-segm=
ent-routing-ext-03
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gredler-idr-bgp=
-ls-segment-routing-ext-03
>=20
> Abstract:
>   Segment Routing (SR) allows for a flexible definition of end-to-end
>   paths within IGP topologies by encoding paths as sequences of
>   topological sub-paths, called "segments".  These segments are
>   advertised by the link-state routing protocols (IS-IS, OSPF and
>   OSPFv3).
>=20
>   This draft defines extensions to the BGP Link-state address-family in
>   order to carry segment information via BGP.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


From nobody Wed Jul  6 08:38:30 2016
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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Distribution of Traffic Engineering (TE) Policies and State using BGP-LS
        Authors         : Stefano Previdi
                          Jie Dong
                          Mach(Guoyi) Chen
                          Hannes Gredler
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05.txt
	Pages           : 26
	Date            : 2016-07-06

Abstract:
   This document describes a mechanism to collect the Traffic
   Engineering and Policy information that is locally available in a
   router and advertise it into BGP-LS updates.  Such information can be
   used by external components for path computation, re-optimization,
   service placement, network visualization, etc.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Wed Jul  6 08:41:00 2016
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From: "Stefano Previdi (sprevidi)" <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05.txt
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Hi,

added support of SR TE Policies (as defined in draft-previdi-idr-segment-ro=
uting-te-policy) and local cross connect state.

Thanks.
s.


> On Jul 6, 2016, at 5:38 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-05.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Stefano Previdi and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution
> Revision:	05
> Title:		Distribution of Traffic Engineering (TE) Policies and State using=
 BGP-LS
> Document date:	2016-07-06
> Group:		idr
> Pages:		26
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-te-ls=
p-distribution-05.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-di=
stribution/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distrib=
ution-05
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-idr-te-lsp=
-distribution-05
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes a mechanism to collect the Traffic
>   Engineering and Policy information that is locally available in a
>   router and advertise it into BGP-LS updates.  Such information can be
>   used by external components for path computation, re-optimization,
>   service placement, network visualization, etc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


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From: amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 10:34:17 -0700
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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Hi Robert,

There is no risk of leaking as the Capability will be exchanged with peers
upon session establishment.

What this feature also gives is monitoring Established neighbor-count.
Consider a router connected to 10 peers and all 10 peers advertise exactly
same prefixes in a CLOS fabric. Now, if 5 peer sessions go down, the
capacity is effectively reduced to 50% while this router is still in the
transit. This can cause congestion. Instead, the router can declare itself
overloaded and the downstream routers then rely on other paths. The update
advertisement delay can be an implementation detail.

Thanks.
Amit

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Amit,
>
> I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to
>> encompass various use cases.
>>
>> However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet
>> and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP
>> topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a
>> bigger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate
>> implementation of the feature can provide good benefits.
>>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BI don't think =E2=80=8Bthis is about "blast radius". ISIS or OSP=
F are link state
> protocols and each node in the given flooding scope computes its
> independent SPF hence flooding such information is a necessity for
> consistent forwarding.
>
> Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each BGP speaker
> recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use case you
> have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way to a bgp peer(=
s)
> that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a given SAFI.
>
> You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to
> point signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of
> signalling choice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such
> NLRIs around ? It would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric wi=
ll
> leak it and it breaks entire fabric - wouldn't you agree ? You at very mi=
n
> MUST enforce the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which
> currently your draft seems to be missing.
>
> There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:
>
> - using flag in dynamic capabilities
> - local poisoning of next hops
> - use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)
> - use of G-shut community
>
> or simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths
> learned are removed and best path (or multipath) recomputed. The potentia=
l
> "hit" would be on re-enabling it such that you need readvertise your
> underlay again.
>
> It is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwarding can continue till
> everyone around stops sending you packets in a given table_id
> (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></div>There is no risk of leak=
ing as the Capability will be exchanged with peers upon session establishme=
nt.<br><br></div><div>What this feature also gives is monitoring Establishe=
d neighbor-count. Consider a router connected to 10 peers and all 10 peers =
advertise exactly same prefixes in a CLOS fabric. Now, if 5 peer sessions g=
o down, the capacity is effectively reduced to 50% while this router is sti=
ll in the transit. This can cause congestion. Instead, the router can decla=
re itself overloaded and the downstream routers then rely on other paths. T=
he update advertisement delay can be an implementation detail.<br><br></div=
><div>Thanks.<br></div><div>Amit<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Rasz=
uk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=
=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I agre=
e that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to encompass =
various use cases.<br><br></div>However, the way I see this draft, it can b=
e useful for both, Internet and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traf=
fic drain procedure BGP topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bi=
t. Agree, BGP has a bigger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but ap=
propriate implementation of the feature can provide good benefits.<br></div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BI don&#39;t think =E2=80=8Bthis is about=
 &quot;blast radius&quot;. ISIS or OSPF are link state protocols and each n=
ode in the given flooding scope computes its independent SPF hence flooding=
 such information is a necessity for consistent forwarding.=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Contrary to the above BGP is pa=
th/distance-vector where each BGP speaker recomputes its bRIB and re-advert=
ises it. Therefor for the use case you have in mind all what is required is=
 to signal in some way to a bgp peer(s) that you may not want or want again=
 to be in forwarding for a given SAFI.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to=
 use for point to point signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right =
level of signalling choice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of=
 such NLRIs around ? It would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabri=
c will leak it and it breaks entire fabric - wouldn&#39;t you agree ? You a=
t very min MUST enforce the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI =
which currently your draft seems to be missing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">There are couple of alternatives to accompl=
ish the same though:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all">- using flag in dynamic capabilities=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- l=
ocal poisoning of next hops=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of local =
pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of G-shut=
 community=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">or =
simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths learned=
 are removed and best path (or multipath) recomputed. The potential &quot;h=
it&quot; would be on re-enabling it such that you need readvertise your und=
erlay again.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">It =
is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwarding can continue till everyo=
ne around stops sending you packets in a given table_id (corresponding to S=
AFI which has been shut down).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">Many thx,<br>R.</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114fadeca796eb0536fafadc--


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Hi Amit,

BGP Capability is completely orthogonal. It only indicates who support this
new SAFI. I am talking about the case where  as this new SAFI which is
needed only between *directly connected* peers will use generic BGP
mechanism and will propage NLRIs across entire DC. It would be completely
unnecessary yet your draft does not discuss this point. This is what I call
"leaking".

As far as signalling number of active peers to a peer I do not see how you
encode this in the currently posted proposal nor it is clear what action
such router should automatically do with that information. Honestly I would
rather see the operator action here.

Thx,
R.



On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 7:34 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> There is no risk of leaking as the Capability will be exchanged with peer=
s
> upon session establishment.
>
> What this feature also gives is monitoring Established neighbor-count.
> Consider a router connected to 10 peers and all 10 peers advertise exactl=
y
> same prefixes in a CLOS fabric. Now, if 5 peer sessions go down, the
> capacity is effectively reduced to 50% while this router is still in the
> transit. This can cause congestion. Instead, the router can declare itsel=
f
> overloaded and the downstream routers then rely on other paths. The updat=
e
> advertisement delay can be an implementation detail.
>
> Thanks.
> Amit
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Amit,
>>
>> I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to
>>> encompass various use cases.
>>>
>>> However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet
>>> and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP
>>> topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a
>>> bigger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate
>>> implementation of the feature can provide good benefits.
>>>
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BI don't think =E2=80=8Bthis is about "blast radius". ISIS or OS=
PF are link state
>> protocols and each node in the given flooding scope computes its
>> independent SPF hence flooding such information is a necessity for
>> consistent forwarding.
>>
>> Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each BGP speaker
>> recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use case you
>> have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way to a bgp peer=
(s)
>> that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a given SAFI=
.
>>
>> You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to
>> point signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of
>> signalling choice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such
>> NLRIs around ? It would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric w=
ill
>> leak it and it breaks entire fabric - wouldn't you agree ? You at very m=
in
>> MUST enforce the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which
>> currently your draft seems to be missing.
>>
>> There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:
>>
>> - using flag in dynamic capabilities
>> - local poisoning of next hops
>> - use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)
>> - use of G-shut community
>>
>> or simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths
>> learned are removed and best path (or multipath) recomputed. The potenti=
al
>> "hit" would be on re-enabling it such that you need readvertise your
>> underlay again.
>>
>> It is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwarding can continue till
>> everyone around stops sending you packets in a given table_id
>> (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down).
>>
>> Many thx,
>> R.
>>
>>
>

--001a11411f28e730fd0536fb13fe
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">BGP Capability is completely orthogonal. It only ind=
icates who support this new SAFI. I am talking about the case where =C2=A0a=
s this new SAFI which is needed only between *directly connected* peers wil=
l use generic BGP mechanism and will propage NLRIs across entire DC. It wou=
ld be completely unnecessary yet your draft does not discuss this point. Th=
is is what I call &quot;leaking&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">As far as signalling number of active peers to a pee=
r I do not see how you encode this in the currently posted proposal nor it =
is clear what action such router should automatically do with that informat=
ion. Honestly I would rather see the operator action here.=C2=A0</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at =
7:34 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:scet.amit@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></di=
v>There is no risk of leaking as the Capability will be exchanged with peer=
s upon session establishment.<br><br></div><div>What this feature also give=
s is monitoring Established neighbor-count. Consider a router connected to =
10 peers and all 10 peers advertise exactly same prefixes in a CLOS fabric.=
 Now, if 5 peer sessions go down, the capacity is effectively reduced to 50=
% while this router is still in the transit. This can cause congestion. Ins=
tead, the router can declare itself overloaded and the downstream routers t=
hen rely on other paths. The update advertisement delay can be an implement=
ation detail.<br><br></div><div>Thanks.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><div>Amit<br></div></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><div><div>I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards D=
C-fabric side to encompass various use cases.<br><br></div>However, the way=
 I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet and DC-fabrics. The =
main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP topology agnostic, exact=
ly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a bigger blast radius in Inter=
net compared to ISIS but appropriate implementation of the feature can prov=
ide good benefits.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>=
<div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BI don&#39;t t=
hink =E2=80=8Bthis is about &quot;blast radius&quot;. ISIS or OSPF are link=
 state protocols and each node in the given flooding scope computes its ind=
ependent SPF hence flooding such information is a necessity for consistent =
forwarding.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cont=
rary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each BGP speaker recomp=
utes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use case you have in m=
ind all what is required is to signal in some way to a bgp peer(s) that you=
 may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a given SAFI.=C2=A0</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">You defined a new SAFI as=
 well as new NLRI format to use for point to point signalling .. I am not c=
onvinced this is the right level of signalling choice for this purpose. How=
 do you stop propagation of such NLRIs around ? It would be pretty harmful =
if one router in Clos fabric will leak it and it breaks entire fabric - wou=
ldn&#39;t you agree ? You at very min MUST enforce the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTI=
SE semantics for such SAFI which currently your draft seems to be missing.=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">There are coupl=
e of alternatives to accomplish the same though:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- using flag in dynamic capabilities=C2=A0=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">- local poisoning of next hops=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">- use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">- use of G-shut community=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=C2=A0</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">or simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in =
one shot all paths learned are removed and best path (or multipath) recompu=
ted. The potential &quot;hit&quot; would be on re-enabling it such that you=
 need readvertise your underlay again.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">It is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwardin=
g can continue till everyone around stops sending you packets in a given ta=
ble_id (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down).=C2=A0</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many thx,<br>R.</div></div><div><b=
r></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11411f28e730fd0536fb13fe--


From nobody Thu Jul  7 06:53:46 2016
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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Assigned BGP extended communities
        Authors         : Bruno Decraene
                          Pierre Francois
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-09.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2016-07-07

Abstract:
   This document defines an IANA registry in order to assign non-
   transitive extended communities from.  These are similar to the
   existing well-known BGP communities defined in RFC 1997 but provide a
   control over inter-AS community advertisement as, per RFC RFC 4360,
   they are not transitive across Autonomous System boundaries.

   For that purpose, this document defines the use of the reserved
   Autonomous System number 0.65535 in the non-transitive generic four-
   octet AS specific extended community type.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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Hi all,

Just a refresh, following discussions on GROW WG related to non-transitive =
well-known communities.

-- Bruno

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf=
.org
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 3:54 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: idr@ietf.org
> Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-0=
9.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Assigned BGP extended communities
>         Authors         : Bruno Decraene
>                           Pierre Francois
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-09.txt
> 	Pages           : 6
> 	Date            : 2016-07-07
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document defines an IANA registry in order to assign non-
>    transitive extended communities from.  These are similar to the
>    existing well-known BGP communities defined in RFC 1997 but provide a
>    control over inter-AS community advertisement as, per RFC RFC 4360,
>    they are not transitive across Autonomous System boundaries.
>=20
>    For that purpose, this document defines the use of the reserved
>    Autonomous System number 0.65535 in the non-transitive generic four-
>    octet AS specific extended community type.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communi=
ties/
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-communities-=
09
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-idr-reserved-extended-comm=
unities-09
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

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From nobody Thu Jul  7 10:17:38 2016
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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Cc: idr@ietf.org, "'Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)'" <keyupate@cisco.com>, 'Bruno Decraene' <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG Adoption of draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement - 2 week WG Adoption call (6/6 to 6/20)
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On Tue, Jul 05, 2016 at 07:27:12PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote:
> This ends the 2 week WG Adoption call for
> draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement.  The WG has adopted this
> draft.  
> 
> The Co-chairs forgot to do an IPR call on this draft.   The authors should
> indicate whether they know of IPR on this draft.   After we receive all the
> IPR statements, the authors will be able to upload this as
> draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt.  

I am unaware of any IPR on this document.

-- Jeff


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
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Subject: [Idr] Early allocation for ext-opt-param [internet-drafts@ietf.org: I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-05.txt]
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A brief note as I'm catching up in my email:
It does not appear that IANA has an early allocation request for the 255
code point for this draft.  Given that the feature is deployed, that seems
problematic.

If the authors and our AD believe this will pass through IESG fast enough,
we can probably skip such a request. 

-- Jeff

----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org -----

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 19:10:49 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: idr@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-05.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Extended Optional Parameters Length for BGP OPEN Message
        Authors         : Enke Chen
                          John Scudder
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-05.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2016-06-28

Abstract:
   The Optional Parameters in the BGP OPEN message as defined in the
   base BGP specification are limited to 255 octets due to a one-octet
   length field.  BGP Capabilities are carried in this field and may
   foreseeably exceed 255 octets in the future, leading to concern about
   this limitation.

   In this document we update RFC 4271 by extending the BGP OPEN length
   field in a backward-compatible manner.  The Parameter Length field of
   individual Optional Parameters is similarly extended.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-ext-opt-param-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

----- End forwarded message -----


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From: amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 10:33:27 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Review Request for draft BGP Overload
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--001a11c04ca881896205370f154f
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Hi Robert,

I uploaded v01 of the draft to address some of your concerns. Sorry, I
misunderstood what you meant by leaking. Agreed, even though
MP_(UN)REACH_NLRI are non-transitive, they will be advertised to
neighboring AS. To stop this flooding, I have added that the UPDATE message
must be sent with NO_ADVERTISE community. Not sure if this is "hacky".

It also includes the usecase I am referring to - neighbor-count threshold.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thanks.
Amit

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Amit,
>
> BGP Capability is completely orthogonal. It only indicates who support
> this new SAFI. I am talking about the case where  as this new SAFI which =
is
> needed only between *directly connected* peers will use generic BGP
> mechanism and will propage NLRIs across entire DC. It would be completely
> unnecessary yet your draft does not discuss this point. This is what I ca=
ll
> "leaking".
>
> As far as signalling number of active peers to a peer I do not see how yo=
u
> encode this in the currently posted proposal nor it is clear what action
> such router should automatically do with that information. Honestly I wou=
ld
> rather see the operator action here.
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 7:34 PM, amit bhagat <scet.amit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> There is no risk of leaking as the Capability will be exchanged with
>> peers upon session establishment.
>>
>> What this feature also gives is monitoring Established neighbor-count.
>> Consider a router connected to 10 peers and all 10 peers advertise exact=
ly
>> same prefixes in a CLOS fabric. Now, if 5 peer sessions go down, the
>> capacity is effectively reduced to 50% while this router is still in the
>> transit. This can cause congestion. Instead, the router can declare itse=
lf
>> overloaded and the downstream routers then rely on other paths. The upda=
te
>> advertisement delay can be an implementation detail.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> Amit
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote=
:
>>
>>> Hi Amit,
>>>
>>> I agree that recently BGP is being stretched towards DC-fabric side to
>>>> encompass various use cases.
>>>>
>>>> However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Internet
>>>> and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP
>>>> topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a
>>>> bigger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate
>>>> implementation of the feature can provide good benefits.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BI don't think =E2=80=8Bthis is about "blast radius". ISIS or O=
SPF are link
>>> state protocols and each node in the given flooding scope computes its
>>> independent SPF hence flooding such information is a necessity for
>>> consistent forwarding.
>>>
>>> Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector where each BGP speake=
r
>>> recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for the use case you
>>> have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way to a bgp pee=
r(s)
>>> that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding for a given SAF=
I.
>>>
>>> You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to
>>> point signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of
>>> signalling choice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such
>>> NLRIs around ? It would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric =
will
>>> leak it and it breaks entire fabric - wouldn't you agree ? You at very =
min
>>> MUST enforce the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which
>>> currently your draft seems to be missing.
>>>
>>> There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:
>>>
>>> - using flag in dynamic capabilities
>>> - local poisoning of next hops
>>> - use of local pref/med (same as OSPF max metric:)
>>> - use of G-shut community
>>>
>>> or simply shutting the SAFIs. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths
>>> learned are removed and best path (or multipath) recomputed. The potent=
ial
>>> "hit" would be on re-enabling it such that you need readvertise your
>>> underlay again.
>>>
>>> It is gracefull (no packet drops) as local forwarding can continue till
>>> everyone around stops sending you packets in a given table_id
>>> (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut down).
>>>
>>> Many thx,
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

--001a11c04ca881896205370f154f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Robert,<br><br></div>I uploaded v01=
 of the draft to address some of your concerns. Sorry, I misunderstood what=
 you meant by leaking. Agreed, even though MP_(UN)REACH_NLRI are non-transi=
tive, they will be advertised to neighboring AS. To stop this flooding, I h=
ave added that the UPDATE message must be sent with NO_ADVERTISE community.=
 Not sure if this is &quot;hacky&quot;. <br></div><div><br></div><div>It al=
so includes the usecase I am referring to - neighbor-count threshold.<br></=
div><div><br></div>I appreciate your feedback.<br><br></div>Thanks.<br></di=
v>Amit<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">BGP =
Capability is completely orthogonal. It only indicates who support this new=
 SAFI. I am talking about the case where =C2=A0as this new SAFI which is ne=
eded only between *directly connected* peers will use generic BGP mechanism=
 and will propage NLRIs across entire DC. It would be completely unnecessar=
y yet your draft does not discuss this point. This is what I call &quot;lea=
king&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As f=
ar as signalling number of active peers to a peer I do not see how you enco=
de this in the currently posted proposal nor it is clear what action such r=
outer should automatically do with that information. Honestly I would rathe=
r see the operator action here.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, J=
ul 6, 2016 at 7:34 PM, amit bhagat <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
scet.amit@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">scet.amit@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Rober=
t,<br><br></div>There is no risk of leaking as the Capability will be excha=
nged with peers upon session establishment.<br><br></div><div>What this fea=
ture also gives is monitoring Established neighbor-count. Consider a router=
 connected to 10 peers and all 10 peers advertise exactly same prefixes in =
a CLOS fabric. Now, if 5 peer sessions go down, the capacity is effectively=
 reduced to 50% while this router is still in the transit. This can cause c=
ongestion. Instead, the router can declare itself overloaded and the downst=
ream routers then rely on other paths. The update advertisement delay can b=
e an implementation detail.<br><br></div><div>Thanks.<span><font color=3D"#=
888888"><br></font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Amit<br>=
</div></font></span></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@=
raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Amit,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I agree that recently BGP is =
being stretched towards DC-fabric side to encompass various use cases.<br><=
br></div>However, the way I see this draft, it can be useful for both, Inte=
rnet and DC-fabrics. The main reason is to keep traffic drain procedure BGP=
 topology agnostic, exactly same as ISIS Overload-bit. Agree, BGP has a big=
ger blast radius in Internet compared to ISIS but appropriate implementatio=
n of the feature can provide good benefits.<br></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div></span><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l">=E2=80=8BI don&#39;t think =E2=80=8Bthis is about &quot;blast radius&quo=
t;. ISIS or OSPF are link state protocols and each node in the given floodi=
ng scope computes its independent SPF hence flooding such information is a =
necessity for consistent forwarding.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">Contrary to the above BGP is path/distance-vector wher=
e each BGP speaker recomputes its bRIB and re-advertises it. Therefor for t=
he use case you have in mind all what is required is to signal in some way =
to a bgp peer(s) that you may not want or want again to be in forwarding fo=
r a given SAFI.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
You defined a new SAFI as well as new NLRI format to use for point to point=
 signalling .. I am not convinced this is the right level of signalling cho=
ice for this purpose. How do you stop propagation of such NLRIs around ? It=
 would be pretty harmful if one router in Clos fabric will leak it and it b=
reaks entire fabric - wouldn&#39;t you agree ? You at very min MUST enforce=
 the NO-EXPORT/NO-ADVERTISE semantics for such SAFI which currently your dr=
aft seems to be missing.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">There are couple of alternatives to accomplish the same though:=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- using flag in dy=
namic capabilities=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- local poisoning of next =
hops=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of local pref/med (same as OSPF ma=
x metric:)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- use of G-shut community=C2=A0</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">or simply shutting the SAFIs=
. When you shut SAFI in one shot all paths learned are removed and best pat=
h (or multipath) recomputed. The potential &quot;hit&quot; would be on re-e=
nabling it such that you need readvertise your underlay again.=C2=A0</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">It is gracefull (no packet d=
rops) as local forwarding can continue till everyone around stops sending y=
ou packets in a given table_id (corresponding to SAFI which has been shut d=
own).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Many thx,<=
br>R.</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c04ca881896205370f154f--


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This time filter that combines with the other RFC5575bis filters.   The =
authors welcome comments on this draft.=20

Sue, Jianjie, and LIang
-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 6:28 AM
To: Jianjie You; Qiandeng Liang; liangqiandeng; Susan Hares
Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time-00.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Susan Hares and posted to the IETF =
repository.

Name:		draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time
Revision:	00
Title:		BGP Flow Specification Filter Component for Time Constraints
Document date:	2016-07-08
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		6
URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time-00.=
txt
Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time/
Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time-00


Abstract:
   BGP flow specification version 1 (RFC5575) describes the distribution
   of traffic filter policy (traffic filters and actions) which are
   distributed via BGP to BGP peers to support the following 3
   applications: (1) mitigation of Denial of Service (DoS), (2) traffic
   filtering in BGP/MPLS VPNs, and (3) centralized traffic control for
   networks with SDN or NFV controllers.  A BGP Flow Filter that
   combines packet filter with time may provide an ability to for these
   three applications to have a flow filter operate for only a specific
   time.

   This document proposes a new BGP Flow specification filter based on
   time.

                                                                         =
        =20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



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John: 

 

May I please have time for 4 flow specification drafts presentations:  

 

1)      Flow specification v2  [3 slides, title, 2 text]  

2)      RFC5575bis - 2 variants: draft-hares-rfc5575bis, draft-hr-rfc5575bis
[4 slides: title: 3 text]  

3)      Flow Specification Time filter - draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time
and draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v3

[3 slides, title, 2 text, 1 QA]  

 

Total:  slides: 10 slides, total time 15 minutes (less if need to) .    

 

Sue Hares 

 

 


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>John: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>May I please have time for 4 flow specification drafts =
presentations: &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>Flow specification v2 &nbsp;[3 slides, title, 2 =
text] &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>RFC5575bis &#8211; 2 variants: =
draft-hares-rfc5575bis, draft-hr-rfc5575bis &nbsp;[4 slides: title: 3 =
text] &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if =
!supportLists]><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3)<span =
style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span></span><![endif]>Flow Specification Time filter - =
draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time and =
draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v3<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph>[3 =
slides, title, 2 text, 1 QA] &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Total: =
&nbsp;slides: 10 slides, total time 15 minutes (less if need to) .&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sue Hares <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: IDR Session Slot Request 
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SGkgU3VlLCBKb2huLA0KDQpJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgYSAxMCBtaW51dGUgc2xvdCB0byBwcmVzZW50
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Acee:

I will add you to the list. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem (acee)
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 11:03 AM
To: Susan Hares; John Scudder
Cc: IDR List
Subject: [Idr] IDR Session Slot Request

Hi Sue, John,

I would like a 10 minute slot to present our new draft:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf/

Thanks,
Acee 

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>, Abhay Roy <akr@cisco.com>,  "Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)" <myeung@cisco.com>, "Venu Venugopal (venuv)" <venuv@cisco.com>
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Subject: [Idr] Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
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--001a1142c9b24714ca053721c8dc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi,

I have reviewed your proposal.

Turning path vector or distance vector protocol into link state carrier is
no doubt a bold idea :).

Effectively what you are proposing is to use BGP TCP sessions to propagate
link state database creating first "link vector protocol" !

For start I have few questions:

Q1:

RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and up) to
include number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal you
mentioned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are not
going to use all encoding for specific IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?

Q2:

Who creates and maintains LSDB in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to
run OSPF and or ISIS except disable it to establish any adjaciencies ?

Q3:

Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... one uses
BGP to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both underlay
and tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that scale wise I
think your proposal will work great for the former. However I do have
concerns about using your model for the latter where say 10,000 or 100,000
/32s or /128s from each VMs are injected and you need to construct SPT with
all of those.

Q4:

Related to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node other
then just injecting 10s of /32s and being "done" now becomes an IGP node.
Since your document explicitely targets Massively Scaled Data Centers
(MSDCs) I am concerned that having 100,000+ IGP nodes and in many case much
more is not the best idea.

Q5:

Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead without
stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work on
this started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It seems
to me very reusable for this goal.

Best regards,
Robert.

--001a1142c9b24714ca053721c8dc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">I have reviewed your proposal.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Turning path vector or distance vector pro=
tocol into link state carrier is no doubt a bold idea :).</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Effectively what you are proposing is=
 to use BGP TCP sessions to propagate link state database creating first &q=
uot;link vector protocol&quot; !</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">For start I have few questions:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">Q1:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and u=
p) to include number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal y=
ou mentioned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are n=
ot going to use all encoding for specific IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Q2:=C2=A0</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Who creates and maintains LSDB=
 in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to run OSPF and or ISIS except disa=
ble it to establish any adjaciencies ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Q3:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... =
one uses BGP to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both =
underlay and tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that sca=
le wise I think your proposal will work great for the former. However I do =
have concerns about using your model for the latter where say 10,000 or 100=
,000 /32s or /128s from each VMs are injected and you need to construct SPT=
 with all of those.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll">Q4:=C2=A0<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Rela=
ted to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node other the=
n just injecting 10s of /32s and being &quot;done&quot; now becomes an IGP =
node. Since your document explicitely targets=C2=A0Massively Scaled Data Ce=
nters (MSDCs) I am concerned that having 100,000+ IGP nodes and in many cas=
e much more is not the best idea.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">Q5:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead wi=
thout stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work =
on this started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It se=
ems to me very reusable for this goal.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small">Best regards,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small"><br></div></div>

--001a1142c9b24714ca053721c8dc--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Flowspec Indirection-id Redirect
        Authors         : Gunter Van de Velde
                          Wim Henderickx
                          Keyur Patel
                          Arjun Sreekantiah
                          Zhenbin Li
                          Shunwan Zhuang
                          Nan Wu
	Filename        : draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-03.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   Flowspec is an extension to BGP that allows for the dissemination of
   traffic flow specification rules.  This has many possible
   applications but the primary one for many network operators is the
   distribution of traffic filtering actions for DDoS mitigation.  The
   flow-spec standard RFC5575 [2] defines a redirect-to-VRF action for
   policy-based forwarding but this mechanism is not always sufficient,
   particularly if the redirected traffic needs to be steered into an
   engineered path or into a service plane.

   This document defines a new extended community known as redirect-to-
   indirection-id (32-bit) flowspec action to provide advanced
   redirection capabilities on flowspec clients.  When activated, the
   flowspec extended community is used by a flowspec client to find the
   correct next-hop entry within a localised indirection-id mapping
   table.

   The functionality present in this draft allows a network controller
   to decouple flowspec functionality from the creation and maintainance
   of the network's service plane itself including the setup of tunnels
   and other service constructs that could be managed by other network
   devices.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-03

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-03


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From nobody Fri Jul  8 09:13:26 2016
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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : BGP Optimal Route Reflection (BGP-ORR)
        Authors         : Robert Raszuk
                          Christian Cassar
                          Erik Aman
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Stephane Litkowski
                          Kevin Wang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-12.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   This document proposes a solution for BGP route reflectors to allow
   them to choose the best path their clients would have chosen under
   the same conditions, without requiring further state or any new
   features to be placed on the clients.  This facilitates, for example,
   best exit point policy (hot potato routing).  This solution is
   primarily applicable in deployments using centralized route
   reflectors.

   The solution relies upon all route reflectors learning all paths
   which are eligible for consideration.  Best path selection is
   performed in each route reflector based on a configured virtual
   location in the IGP.  The location can be the same for all clients or
   different per peer/update group or per peer.  Best path selection can
   also be performed based on user configured policies in each route
   reflector.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-12

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-bgp-optimal-route-reflection-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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Hi Sue, John,

As discussed the draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-03 has been =
posted and is now the merged document=20
draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-02 and =
draft-li-idr-flowspec-redirect-generalized-sid-00
.
Maybe a 5 minute slot to discuss the current state could be helpful for =
the WG.

Brgds,
G/




> On 04 Jul 2016, at 14:17, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>=20
> =20
> IETF 96 is drawing near.  For those who would like to present at IETF =
96, please reply to this message (making sure to keep both chairs), and =
request a slot. =20
> =20
> Sue and John=20
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, "Abhay Roy (akr)" <akr@cisco.com>, "Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)" <myeung@cisco.com>, "Venu Venugopal (venuv)" <venuv@cisco.com>
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--_000_D3A547856931Eaceeciscocom_--


From nobody Fri Jul  8 10:21:19 2016
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot
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Gunter: 

You have a time slot. 

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gunter Van De Velde [mailto:guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 12:21 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: idr@ietf.org; idr chairs; John G. Scudder
Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot

Hi Sue, John,

As discussed the draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-03 has been
posted and is now the merged document 
draft-vandevelde-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-02 and
draft-li-idr-flowspec-redirect-generalized-sid-00
.
Maybe a 5 minute slot to discuss the current state could be helpful for the
WG.

Brgds,
G/




> On 04 Jul 2016, at 14:17, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> 
>  
> IETF 96 is drawing near.  For those who would like to present at IETF 96,
please reply to this message (making sure to keep both chairs), and request
a slot.  
>  
> Sue and John 
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr



From nobody Fri Jul  8 10:34:51 2016
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Generic Subtype for BGP Four-octet AS specific extended community
        Authors         : Dhananjaya Rao
                          Pradosh Mohapatra
                          Jeffrey Haas
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-as4octet-extcomm-generic-subtype-09.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   Maintaining the current best practices with communities, ISPs and
   enterprises that are assigned a 4-octet AS number may want the BGP
   UPDATE messages they receive from their customers or peers to include
   a 4-octet AS specific BGP extended community.  This document defines
   a new sub-type within the four-octet AS specific extended community
   to facilitate this practice.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-as4octet-extcomm-generic-subtype/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-as4octet-extcomm-generic-subtype-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-as4octet-extcomm-generic-subtype-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Jul  8 12:46:12 2016
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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Constrain Attribute announcement within BGP
        Authors         : Keyur Patel
                          James Uttaro
                          Bruno Decraene
                          Wim Henderickx
                          Jeff Haas
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   [RFC4271] defines four different categories of BGP Path attributes.
   The different Path attribute categories can be identified by the
   attribute flag values.  These flags help identify if an attribute is
   optional or well-known, Transitive or non-Transitive, Partial, or of
   an Extended length type.  BGP attribute announcement depends on
   whether an attribute is a well-known or optional, and whether an
   attribute is a transitive or non-transitive.  BGP implementations
   MUST recognize all well-known attributes.  The well-known attributes
   are always Transitive.  It is not required for BGP implementations to
   recognise all the Optional attributes.  The Optional attributes could
   be Transitive or Non-Transitive.  BGP implementations MUST store and
   forward any Unknown Optional Transitive attributes and ignore and
   drop any Unknown Optional Non-Transitive attributes.

   Currently, there is no way to confine the scope of Path attributes
   within a given Autonomous System (AS) or a given BGP member-AS in
   Confederation.  This draft defines attribute extensions that help
   confine the scope of Optional attributes within a given AS or a given
   BGP member-AS in Confederation


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-attribute-announcement-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Jul  8 14:32:36 2016
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Cc: idr@ietf.org, idr-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server@ietf.org, shares@ndzh.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject: [Idr] Protocol Action: 'Internet Exchange BGP Route Server' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server-12.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Internet Exchange BGP Route Server'
  (draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server-12.txt) as Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas and Deborah
Brungard.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server/





Technical Summary

   This document outlines a specification for multilateral
   interconnections at Internet exchange points (IXPs).  Multilateral
   interconnection is a method of exchanging routing information between
   three or more external BGP speakers using a single intermediate
   broker system, referred to as a route server.  Route servers are
   typically used on shared access media networks, such as Internet
   exchange points (IXPs), to facilitate simplified interconnection
   between multiple Internet routers.

Working Group Summary

 The document has been discussed for 2-3 years in the IDR and
 the GROW working group.  There is a "companion" document from the 
 grow WG: draft-ietf-grow-ix-bgp-route-server-operations.

Document Quality

   Yes, implementations from cisco, BIRD and Quaga exist.  The details
   of an implementation report are here: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/trac/wiki/draft-ietf-idr-ix-bgp-route-server%20implementations

Personnel

  Document Shepherd: Susan Hares 
  Responsible AD: Alvaro Retana


From nobody Fri Jul  8 14:35:35 2016
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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : Methods for Detection and Mitigation of BGP Route Leaks
        Authors         : Kotikalapudi Sriram
                          Doug Montgomery
                          Brian Dickson
                          Keyur Patel
                          Andrei Robachevsky
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   [I-D.ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition] provides a definition
   of the route leak problem, and also enumerates several types of route
   leaks.  This document first examines which of those route-leak types
   are detected and mitigated by the existing origin validation (OV)
   [RFC 6811].  It is recognized that OV offers a limited detection and
   mitigation capability against route leaks.  This document specifies
   enhancements that significantly extend the route-leak prevention,
   detection, and mitigation capabilities of BGP.  One solution
   component involves carrying a per-hop route-leak protection (RLP)
   field in BGP updates.  The RLP field is proposed be carried in a new
   optional transitive attribute, called BGP RLP attribute.  The
   solution is meant to be initially implemented as an enhancement of
   BGP without requiring BGPsec [I-D.ietf-sidr-bgpsec-protocol].
   However, when BGPsec is deployed in the future, the solution can be
   incorporated in BGPsec, enabling cryptographic protection for the RLP
   field.  That would be one way of implementing the proposed solution
   in a secure way.  The document also includes a stopgap method for
   detection and mitigation of route leaks for an intermediate phase
   when OV is deployed but BGP protocol on the wire is unchanged.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Jul  8 15:57:15 2016
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From: Enke Chen <enkechen@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot
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Hi, Sue and John:

I would like to ask for 15-minutes to present the following draft at the
upcoming IETF in Berlin:

    draft-chen-idr-geo-coordinates-01

Thanks.   -- Enke

On 7/4/16 5:17 AM, Susan Hares wrote:
>  
> 
> IETF 96 is drawing near.  For those who would like to present at IETF 96, please reply to this message (making sure to keep both chairs), and request a slot. 
> 
>  
> 
> Sue and John
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
> 


From nobody Fri Jul  8 16:48:56 2016
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Enke: 

I'm thrilled to have you presenting at IDR once again.  Your slot will be
between 10-15 minutes (depending on how crowded the agenda is).

Sue 

-----Original Message-----
From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Enke Chen
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 6:57 PM
To: Susan Hares; 'John G. Scudder'
Cc: idr@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk; 'idr chairs'
Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot

Hi, Sue and John:

I would like to ask for 15-minutes to present the following draft at the
upcoming IETF in Berlin:

    draft-chen-idr-geo-coordinates-01

Thanks.   -- Enke

On 7/4/16 5:17 AM, Susan Hares wrote:
>  
> 
> IETF 96 is drawing near.  For those who would like to present at IETF 96,
please reply to this message (making sure to keep both chairs), and request
a slot. 
> 
>  
> 
> Sue and John
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
> 

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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Subject: [Idr] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04.txt
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Minor updates done in this new version:

1. Added a reference to the discussions from the NANOG list in June 2016
 which provide support for the material on "Intra-AS Messaging for Route Le=
ak Prevention" in Section 3.2.

2. The last paragraph in Section 4 is new.=20
This paragraph actually belongs more suitably at the end of Section 5.4.  W=
ill make that move in the next revision.

Sriram
________________________________________
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, July 8, 2016 5:35 PM
To: Brian Dickson; Montgomery, Douglas (Fed); Keyur Patel; Andrei Robachevs=
ky; Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed)
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-m=
itigation-04.txt

A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kotikalapudi Sriram and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation
Revision:       04
Title:          Methods for Detection and Mitigation of BGP Route Leaks
Document date:  2016-07-08
Group:          idr
Pages:          22
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-route-l=
eak-detection-mitigation-04.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-=
detection-mitigation/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detec=
tion-mitigation-04
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-idr-route-le=
ak-detection-mitigation-04

Abstract:
   [I-D.ietf-grow-route-leak-problem-definition] provides a definition
   of the route leak problem, and also enumerates several types of route
   leaks.  This document first examines which of those route-leak types
   are detected and mitigated by the existing origin validation (OV)
   [RFC 6811].  It is recognized that OV offers a limited detection and
   mitigation capability against route leaks.  This document specifies
   enhancements that significantly extend the route-leak prevention,
   detection, and mitigation capabilities of BGP.  One solution
   component involves carrying a per-hop route-leak protection (RLP)
   field in BGP updates.  The RLP field is proposed be carried in a new
   optional transitive attribute, called BGP RLP attribute.  The
   solution is meant to be initially implemented as an enhancement of
   BGP without requiring BGPsec [I-D.ietf-sidr-bgpsec-protocol].
   However, when BGPsec is deployed in the future, the solution can be
   incorporated in BGPsec, enabling cryptographic protection for the RLP
   field.  That would be one way of implementing the proposed solution
   in a secure way.  The document also includes a stopgap method for
   detection and mitigation of route leaks for an intermediate phase
   when OV is deployed but BGP protocol on the wire is unchanged.


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 21:49:12 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
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Hi AC,

Many thx for responding.

As far as your question 100K+ was about number of compute nodes, virtual
compute nodes in flat routing (enabled via SR-IOV) & switches together as
in your proposal each of them is a node in the SPT. Unless you are planning
to introduce analogy to ospf areas here :)

In any case the most powerful property of BGP is hierarchy and
(multi-level) indirection via next hop. In normal BGP deployments next hops
which are carried in BGP are resolved in IGP. In DC cases where eBGP is
used between all fabric stages next hops resolves to connected routes.

In your case in flat routing you no longer have such recursion.

However I assume your proposal can coexist with other SAFIs and say
external to the DC desitnations will be still carried in 1/1 or 2/1 and
their next hops will be resolved by routes inserted into RIB by running SPF
correct?

Last .. LFA is a great technology however I am not sure if enabling it in
topologies where you have 10s of ECMP active paths and where you are ready
by design for a failure handling is a right thing to do. What are other
real use cases for giving up on pure BGP best path selection and normal BGP
multipath ?

Best regards,
R.


On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> Thanks for engaging=E2=80=A6
>
> From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Date: Friday, July 8, 2016 at 11:51 AM
> To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, Acee Lindem <
> acee@cisco.com>, "Abhay Roy (akr)" <akr@cisco.com>, "Derek Man-Kit Yeung
> (myeung)" <myeung@cisco.com>, "Venu Venugopal (venuv)" <venuv@cisco.com>
> Cc: IDR List <idr@ietf.org>
> Subject: Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
>
> Hi,
>
> I have reviewed your proposal.
>
> Turning path vector or distance vector protocol into link state carrier i=
s
> no doubt a bold idea :).
>
>
> =E2=80=9CFortune befriends the bold.=E2=80=9D -Emily Dickinson
>
>
> Effectively what you are proposing is to use BGP TCP sessions to propagat=
e
> link state database creating first "link vector protocol" !
>
> For start I have few questions:
>
> Q1:
>
> RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and up) to
> include number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal you
> mentioned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are no=
t
> going to use all encoding for specific IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?
>
>
> We are using the BGP Protocol-ID defined for BGP-EPE. The IANA request
> will be generalized from =E2=80=9CBGP-EPE=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CBGP=E2=80=
=9D in support of Segment Routing
> and other enhancements. The BGP-LS NLRI are specific BGP and not either
> IS-IS or OSPF.
>
>
> Q2:
>
> Who creates and maintains LSDB in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to
> run OSPF and or ISIS except disable it to establish any adjaciencies ?
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve seen designs like this in my time but have never been of a f=
an of
> them ;^). BGP will do the SPF directly and maintain the SPT. You=E2=80=99=
ll note
> that a simplified SPF is already done for ORR.
>
>
> Q3:
>
> Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... one uses
> BGP to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both underla=
y
> and tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that scale wise=
 I
> think your proposal will work great for the former. However I do have
> concerns about using your model for the latter where say 10,000 or 100,00=
0
> /32s or /128s from each VMs are injected and you need to construct SPT wi=
th
> all of those.
>
>
> Similar to those designs, the SPT could be limited to the underlay.
> However, if there is no requirement for the benefits of L2 or L3 VPNs, I
> see no reason why these 100Ks of leafs VM prefixes in DC center couldn=E2=
=80=99t be
> supported.
>
>
> Q4:
>
> Related to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node
> other then just injecting 10s of /32s and being "done" now becomes an IGP
> node. Since your document explicitely targets Massively Scaled Data Cente=
rs
> (MSDCs) I am concerned that having 100,000+ IGP nodes and in many case mu=
ch
> more is not the best idea.
>
>
> 100K+ switches in a single DC fabric (i.e., BGP routing domain)? I have
> some experience in link-state protocols and I can tell you that OSPF is I=
/O
> bound mainly due to the flooding. If done right, the SPF calculation can =
be
> done with minimal computation. While BGP-LS isn=E2=80=99t the world's mos=
t compact
> encoding, it is completely incremental.
>
>
> Q5:
>
> Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead withou=
t
> stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work on
> this started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It see=
ms
> to me very reusable for this goal.
>
>
> We looked at lots of alternatives and this one seemed like the best one.
> Please pass me a pointer to the work you mention.
>
> Thanks,
> Acee
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Robert.
>
>

--001a1140ef7aa9662a05373936ac
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi AC,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">Many thx for responding.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as your question 100K+ was about numbe=
r of compute nodes, virtual compute nodes in flat routing (enabled via SR-I=
OV) &amp; switches together as in your proposal each of them is a node in t=
he SPT. Unless you are planning to introduce analogy to ospf areas here :)<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In any case the most p=
owerful property of BGP is hierarchy and (multi-level) indirection via next=
 hop. In normal BGP deployments next hops which are carried in BGP are reso=
lved in IGP. In DC cases where eBGP is used between all fabric stages next =
hops resolves to connected routes.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">In your case in flat routing you no longer have such rec=
ursion.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">However =
I assume your proposal can coexist with other SAFIs and say external to the=
 DC desitnations will be still carried in 1/1 or 2/1 and their next hops wi=
ll be resolved by routes inserted into RIB by running SPF correct?</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Last .. LFA is a great technol=
ogy however I am not sure if enabling it in topologies where you have 10s o=
f ECMP active paths and where you are ready by design for a failure handlin=
g is a right thing to do. What are other real use cases for giving up on pu=
re BGP best path selection and normal BGP multipath ?=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best regards,<br>R.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
Hi Robert,=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
Thanks for engaging=E2=80=A6</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert=
 Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Friday, July 8, 2016 at 11:51=
 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Keyur Patel (keyupate)&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;, Acee Lindem &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Abhay Roy (akr)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:akr@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">akr@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:myeung@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">myeung@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Venu Venugopal (ve=
nuv)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:venuv@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">venuv@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>IDR List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Shortest Path Routing Exte=
nsions for BGP Protocol<br>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I have reviewed your proposal.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Turning path vector or distance vector protocol into link state carrier is =
no doubt a bold idea :).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></span>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<br>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">=E2=80=9CFortune befriends the bold.=
=E2=80=9D -Emily Dickinson</font></div><span class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Effectively what you are proposing is to use BGP TCP sessions to propagate =
link state database creating first &quot;link vector protocol&quot; !</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For start I have few questions:</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q1:=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and up) to inc=
lude number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal you mentio=
ned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are not going =
to use all encoding for specific
 IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We are using the BGP Protocol-ID defined for BGP-EPE. The IANA =
request will be generalized from =E2=80=9CBGP-EPE=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CBGP=
=E2=80=9D in support of Segment Routing and other enhancements. The BGP-LS =
NLRI are specific BGP and not either IS-IS or OSPF.=C2=A0</div><span class=
=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q2:=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Who creates and maintains LSDB in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to ru=
n OSPF and or ISIS except disable it to establish any adjaciencies ?=C2=A0<=
/div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>I=E2=80=99ve seen designs like this in my time but have never b=
een of a fan of them ;^). BGP will do the SPF directly and maintain the SPT=
. You=E2=80=99ll note that a simplified SPF is already done for ORR.=C2=A0<=
/div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q3:=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... one uses BG=
P to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both underlay an=
d tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that scale wise I t=
hink your proposal will work great
 for the former. However I do have concerns about using your model for the =
latter where say 10,000 or 100,000 /32s or /128s from each VMs are injected=
 and you need to construct SPT with all of those.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>Similar to those designs, the SPT could be limited to the under=
lay. However, if there is no requirement for the benefits of L2 or L3 VPNs,=
 I see no reason why these 100Ks of leafs VM prefixes in DC center couldn=
=E2=80=99t be supported.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q4:=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Related to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node other=
 then just injecting 10s of /32s and being &quot;done&quot; now becomes an =
IGP node. Since your document explicitely targets=C2=A0Massively Scaled Dat=
a Centers (MSDCs) I am concerned that having 100,000+
 IGP nodes and in many case much more is not the best idea.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>100K+ switches in a single DC fabric (i.e., BGP routing domain)=
? I have some experience in link-state protocols and I can tell you that OS=
PF is I/O bound mainly due to the flooding. If done right, the SPF calculat=
ion can be done with minimal computation.
 While BGP-LS isn=E2=80=99t the world&#39;s most compact encoding, it is co=
mpletely incremental.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q5:=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead without =
stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work on thi=
s started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It seems to=
 me very reusable for this goal.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>We looked at lots of alternatives and this one seemed like the =
best one. Please pass me a pointer to the work you mention.=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Acee=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Robert.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1140ef7aa9662a05373936ac--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 22:18:18 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hM+y_K+_50Q_QRS64VBdzgBWtx8hL-6iepsVqed+NtqTw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net>, Sue Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
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Cc: idr@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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John, Sue, may I request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be
enough) to present
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
 ?

thanks

-- tony

--94eb2c04965236e37a0537412cbf
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">John, Sue, may I reque=
st a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be enough) to present=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refr=
esh-options-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-rout=
e-refresh-options-00.txt</a>=C2=A0?=C2=A0</font><div><font face=3D"monospac=
e, monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">tha=
nks=C2=A0</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font><=
/div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">-- tony=C2=A0</font></div></d=
iv>

--94eb2c04965236e37a0537412cbf--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 11:32:17 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot
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John, Sue, may I request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be
enough) to present
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
 ?

thanks

-- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace" style=3D"font-size:13p=
x">John, Sue, may I request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should =
be enough) to present=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=
draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt</a>=C2=
=A0?=C2=A0</font><div style=3D"font-size:13px"><font face=3D"monospace, mon=
ospace"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:13px"><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace">thanks=C2=A0</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:13px"><fon=
t face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:13=
px"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">-- tony=C2=A0</font></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:13px"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
</div></div>

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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'Tony Przygienda'" <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 00:26:11 -0400
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Tony:=20

=20

What a delight to have you present this draft.   I will add you to the =
agenda in its next revision.=20

=20

Sue=20

=20

From: Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 2:32 PM
To: Susan Hares
Cc: Enke Chen; John G. Scudder; idr@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk; idr chairs
Subject: Re: [Idr] Presentation slot

=20

John, Sue, may I request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should =
be enough) to present =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt ?=20

=20

thanks=20

=20

-- tony=20

=20

=20


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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Tony: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What a delight to have you present this draft.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I will add =
you to the agenda in its next revision. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
Tony Przygienda [mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, =
July 10, 2016 2:32 PM<br><b>To:</b> Susan Hares<br><b>Cc:</b> Enke Chen; =
John G. Scudder; idr@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk; idr =
chairs<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idr] Presentation =
slot<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>John, Sue, may I =
request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be enough) to =
present&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-=
options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-rout=
e-refresh-options-00.txt</a>&nbsp;?&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>thanks&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New"'>-- tony&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
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From: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
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Hi Robert,

Comment inlined #Keyur.

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 12:49 PM
To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com<mailto:acee@cisco.com>>
Cc: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>>, "Abhay Roy=
 (akr)" <akr@cisco.com<mailto:akr@cisco.com>>, "Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung=
)" <myeung@cisco.com<mailto:myeung@cisco.com>>, "Venu Venugopal (venuv)" <v=
enuv@cisco.com<mailto:venuv@cisco.com>>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ie=
tf.org>>
Subject: Re: Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol

Hi AC,

Many thx for responding.

As far as your question 100K+ was about number of compute nodes, virtual co=
mpute nodes in flat routing (enabled via SR-IOV) & switches together as in =
your proposal each of them is a node in the SPT. Unless you are planning to=
 introduce analogy to ospf areas here :)

In any case the most powerful property of BGP is hierarchy and (multi-level=
) indirection via next hop. In normal BGP deployments next hops which are c=
arried in BGP are resolved in IGP. In DC cases where eBGP is used between a=
ll fabric stages next hops resolves to connected routes.

In your case in flat routing you no longer have such recursion.

However I assume your proposal can coexist with other SAFIs and say externa=
l to the DC desitnations will be still carried in 1/1 or 2/1 and their next=
 hops will be resolved by routes inserted into RIB by running SPF correct?

#Keyur: Yep. Other SAFIs can totally use the draft extensions to recurse th=
eir next hops.

Regards,
Keyur

Last .. LFA is a great technology however I am not sure if enabling it in t=
opologies where you have 10s of ECMP active paths and where you are ready b=
y design for a failure handling is a right thing to do. What are other real=
 use cases for giving up on pure BGP best path selection and normal BGP mul=
tipath ?

Best regards,
R.


On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com<mailto:a=
cee@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Robert,

Thanks for engaging=85

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com<mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com>> on behalf of Robert Ras=
zuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Friday, July 8, 2016 at 11:51 AM
To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>=
>, Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com<mailto:acee@cisco.com>>, "Abhay Roy (akr)" <=
akr@cisco.com<mailto:akr@cisco.com>>, "Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)" <myeun=
g@cisco.com<mailto:myeung@cisco.com>>, "Venu Venugopal (venuv)" <venuv@cisc=
o.com<mailto:venuv@cisco.com>>
Cc: IDR List <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol

Hi,

I have reviewed your proposal.

Turning path vector or distance vector protocol into link state carrier is =
no doubt a bold idea :).

=93Fortune befriends the bold.=94 -Emily Dickinson


Effectively what you are proposing is to use BGP TCP sessions to propagate =
link state database creating first "link vector protocol" !

For start I have few questions:

Q1:

RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and up) to inc=
lude number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal you mentio=
ned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are not going =
to use all encoding for specific IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?

We are using the BGP Protocol-ID defined for BGP-EPE. The IANA request will=
 be generalized from =93BGP-EPE=94 to =93BGP=94 in support of Segment Routi=
ng and other enhancements. The BGP-LS NLRI are specific BGP and not either =
IS-IS or OSPF.


Q2:

Who creates and maintains LSDB in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to ru=
n OSPF and or ISIS except disable it to establish any adjaciencies ?

I=92ve seen designs like this in my time but have never been of a fan of th=
em ;^). BGP will do the SPF directly and maintain the SPT. You=92ll note th=
at a simplified SPF is already done for ORR.


Q3:

Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... one uses BG=
P to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both underlay an=
d tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that scale wise I t=
hink your proposal will work great for the former. However I do have concer=
ns about using your model for the latter where say 10,000 or 100,000 /32s o=
r /128s from each VMs are injected and you need to construct SPT with all o=
f those.

Similar to those designs, the SPT could be limited to the underlay. However=
, if there is no requirement for the benefits of L2 or L3 VPNs, I see no re=
ason why these 100Ks of leafs VM prefixes in DC center couldn=92t be suppor=
ted.


Q4:

Related to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node other=
 then just injecting 10s of /32s and being "done" now becomes an IGP node. =
Since your document explicitely targets Massively Scaled Data Centers (MSDC=
s) I am concerned that having 100,000+ IGP nodes and in many case much more=
 is not the best idea.

100K+ switches in a single DC fabric (i.e., BGP routing domain)? I have som=
e experience in link-state protocols and I can tell you that OSPF is I/O bo=
und mainly due to the flooding. If done right, the SPF calculation can be d=
one with minimal computation. While BGP-LS isn=92t the world's most compact=
 encoding, it is completely incremental.


Q5:

Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead without =
stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work on thi=
s started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It seems to=
 me very reusable for this goal.

We looked at lots of alternatives and this one seemed like the best one. Pl=
ease pass me a pointer to the work you mention.

Thanks,
Acee



Best regards,
Robert.



--_000_D3A931B4465B6keyupateciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comment inlined #Keyur.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 12:=
49 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Acee Lindem (acee)&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Abhay Roy (akr)&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akr@cisco.com">akr@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Derek=
 Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:myeung@cisco.com">myeun=
g@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Venu Venugopal (venuv)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:venuv@cisco.com">=
venuv@cisco.com</a>&gt;, idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: Shortest Path Routing =
Extensions for BGP Protocol<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi AC,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Many thx for responding.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
As far as your question 100K&#43; was about number of compute nodes, virtua=
l compute nodes in flat routing (enabled via SR-IOV) &amp; switches togethe=
r as in your proposal each of them is a node in the SPT. Unless you are pla=
nning to introduce analogy to ospf areas
 here :)</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
In any case the most powerful property of BGP is hierarchy and (multi-level=
) indirection via next hop. In normal BGP deployments next hops which are c=
arried in BGP are resolved in IGP. In DC cases where eBGP is used between a=
ll fabric stages next hops resolves
 to connected routes.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
In your case in flat routing you no longer have such recursion.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
However I assume your proposal can coexist with other SAFIs and say externa=
l to the DC desitnations will be still carried in 1/1 or 2/1 and their next=
 hops will be resolved by routes inserted into RIB by running SPF correct?<=
/div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Yep. Other SAFIs can totally use the draft extensions to recur=
se their next hops.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Last .. LFA is a great technology however I am not sure if enabling it in t=
opologies where you have 10s of ECMP active paths and where you are ready b=
y design for a failure handling is a right thing to do. What are other real=
 use cases for giving up on pure
 BGP best path selection and normal BGP multipath ?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best regards,<br>
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Acee Lindem (ace=
e) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">Hi Robert,&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">Thanks for engaging=85</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x"><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert=
 Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Friday, July 8, 2016 at 11:51=
 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Keyur Patel (keyupate)&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;, Acee Lindem &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acee@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">acee@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Abhay Roy (akr)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:akr@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">akr@cisco.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Derek Man-Kit Yeung (myeung)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:myeung@cisc=
o.com" target=3D"_blank">myeung@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Venu Venugopal (ve=
nuv)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:venuv@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">venuv@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>IDR List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Shortest Path Routing Exte=
nsions for BGP Protocol<br>
</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I have reviewed your proposal.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Turning path vector or distance vector protocol into link state carrier is =
no doubt a bold idea :).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></span>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x"><br>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">=93Fortune befriends the bold.=94 -E=
mily Dickinson</font></div>
<span class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x"><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Effectively what you are proposing is to use BGP TCP sessions to propagate =
link state database creating first &quot;link vector protocol&quot; !</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For start I have few questions:</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q1:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
RFC7752 has gone via lot of efforts (especially sections 3.2 and up) to inc=
lude number of OSPF or ISIS specific encodings. In your proposal you mentio=
ned OSPF twice and not even once ISIS. Does it mean that you are not going =
to use all encoding for specific
 IGPs as defined in RFC7752 ?&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>We are using the BGP Protocol-ID defined for BGP-EPE. The IANA request=
 will be generalized from =93BGP-EPE=94 to =93BGP=94 in support of Segment =
Routing and other enhancements. The BGP-LS NLRI are specific BGP and not ei=
ther IS-IS or OSPF.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q2:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Who creates and maintains LSDB in each BGP speaker ? Are you planning to ru=
n OSPF and or ISIS except disable it to establish any adjaciencies ?&nbsp;<=
/div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>I=92ve seen designs like this in my time but have never been of a fan =
of them ;^). BGP will do the SPF directly and maintain the SPT. You=92ll no=
te that a simplified SPF is already done for ORR.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q3:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Currently there are already to models to build DCs with BGP ... one uses BG=
P to create only lean underlay the other is to use BGP for both underlay an=
d tenants (example project Calico for the latter). With that scale wise I t=
hink your proposal will work great
 for the former. However I do have concerns about using your model for the =
latter where say 10,000 or 100,000 /32s or /128s from each VMs are injected=
 and you need to construct SPT with all of those.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Similar to those designs, the SPT could be limited to the underlay. Ho=
wever, if there is no requirement for the benefits of L2 or L3 VPNs, I see =
no reason why these 100Ks of leafs VM prefixes in DC center couldn=92t be s=
upported.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q4:&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Related to Q3 in your model and say flat DC routing each compute node other=
 then just injecting 10s of /32s and being &quot;done&quot; now becomes an =
IGP node. Since your document explicitely targets&nbsp;Massively Scaled Dat=
a Centers (MSDCs) I am concerned that having 100,000&#43;
 IGP nodes and in many case much more is not the best idea.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>100K&#43; switches in a single DC fabric (i.e., BGP routing domain)? I=
 have some experience in link-state protocols and I can tell you that OSPF =
is I/O bound mainly due to the flooding. If done right, the SPF calculation=
 can be done with minimal computation.
 While BGP-LS isn=92t the world's most compact encoding, it is completely i=
ncremental.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Q5:&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Have you considered just proposing an OSPF route reflector instead without =
stuffing BGP into the mix ? As some of you perhaps remember the work on thi=
s started around year 2000 to optimize PE-CE CSC deployments :) It seems to=
 me very reusable for this goal.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>We looked at lots of alternatives and this one seemed like the best on=
e. Please pass me a pointer to the work you mention.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Acee&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best regards,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Robert.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D3A931B4465B6keyupateciscocom_--


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Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Tony,

Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
those ?

Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?

If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message
with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already
installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all
ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that
Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you think
?

As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?

Thx,
Robert.











On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> John, Sue, may I request a slot on IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be
> enough) to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
>  ?
>
> thanks
>
> -- tony
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>
>

--001a11411f2857697a053762449d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Tony,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as fa=
r as per peer filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF=
 and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC=
7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which push=
ed those ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would=
 you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in =
the new model and sends refresh message with new refresh_id and no options =
however there are ORF entries already installed in the past would he get ju=
st the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words I think th=
e draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE =
actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">As far as current types why not add regular/extended commun=
ity ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Tony Przygienda <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">John, Sue, may I request a slot on =
IDR agenda in Berlin (10 mins should be enough) to present=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-=
route-refresh-options-00.txt</a>=C2=A0?=C2=A0</font><div><font face=3D"mono=
space, monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"=
>thanks=C2=A0</font></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><d=
iv><font face=3D"monospace, monospace"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"=
monospace, monospace">-- tony=C2=A0</font></div></font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11411f2857697a053762449d--


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On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,
other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


>
> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
> those ?
>

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me
is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND).
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @
non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes,
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy
changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with
normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about
combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is
willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.


>
> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding
WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a
request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same
type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is
error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh
ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another
request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel
refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for
it.


>
> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries
> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you
> think ?
>

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same
time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
internal logic ;-).


>
> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.
I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to
wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring
to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported,
possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

-- tony

--001a11409584ad982d0537635815
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Tony,</d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in=
. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may h=
ave differing opinions.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as =
far as per peer filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, O=
RF and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in R=
FC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pu=
shed those ?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We didn&#39;=
t discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me is that t=
he ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I se=
e ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being flip=
ped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-persis=
tent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
e motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is ne=
eded, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes, pe=
er having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes, =
joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove ORF=
s is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with normal up=
date process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to wa=
it for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF =
possibly &amp; playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the A=
FI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to conf=
igure RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be do=
ing the same job just fine.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would you always carry ORF with separate Ref=
resh_ID value ?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, Refr=
esh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the=
 BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MU=
ST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same sequence=
 as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we should probabl=
y specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type #3 messa=
ge but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is error). This =
will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).=C2=A0 In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If one re=
quests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message with new=
 refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already installed =
in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries =
? In other words I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no im=
pact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =C2=A0&quot;=
permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this draft is to hav=
e bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time possibly (if yo=
u request the refreshes from a good implementation while low-end implementa=
tions may serialize the requests to simplify internal logic ;-).=C2=A0</div=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as=
 current types why not add regular/extended community ?</div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Discussion came up. Feeling was it&#39;s an immedi=
ate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0Ultimately, taking =
a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the response is and most=
 pressing use cases people bring to it and then we start to define bits and=
 bytes of the options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the O=
RF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such=
 ... ;-)=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>-- tony=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
></div>
</div></div>

--001a11409584ad982d0537635815--


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
Thread-Index: AQHR2TCrYqWhF/FuxECJ8BfBQYUWB6AOt3SAgAIPJgCAAxangA==
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:59:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Shortest Path Routing Extensions for BGP Protocol
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--_000_D3A980476A7C5aceeciscocom_--


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Subject: [Idr] RFC 7911 on Advertisement of Multiple Paths in BGP
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 7911

        Title:      Advertisement of Multiple Paths in BGP 
        Author:     D. Walton, A. Retana,
                    E. Chen, J. Scudder
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       July 2016
        Mailbox:    dwalton@cumulusnetworks.com, 
                    aretana@cisco.com, 
                    enkechen@cisco.com,
                    jgs@juniper.net
        Pages:      8
        Characters: 17537
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-15.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7911

        DOI:        http://dx.doi.org/10.17487/RFC7911

This document defines a BGP extension that allows the advertisement
of multiple paths for the same address prefix without the new paths
implicitly replacing any previous ones.  The essence of the extension
is that each path is identified by a Path Identifier in addition to
the address prefix.

This document is a product of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
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Subject: [Idr] [Errata Verified] RFC4271 (4493)
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC4271,
"A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4271&eid=4493

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Technical

Reported by: Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Date Reported: 2015-10-06
Verified by: Alvaro Retana (IESG)

Section: 4.5

Original Text
-------------
      Message Header Error subcodes:

               1 - Connection Not Synchronized.
               2 - Bad Message Length.
               3 - Bad Message Type.

      OPEN Message Error subcodes:

               1 - Unsupported Version Number.
               2 - Bad Peer AS.
               3 - Bad BGP Identifier.
               4 - Unsupported Optional Parameter.
               5 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
               6 - Unacceptable Hold Time.

      UPDATE Message Error subcodes:

               1 - Malformed Attribute List.
               2 - Unrecognized Well-known Attribute.
               3 - Missing Well-known Attribute.
               4 - Attribute Flags Error.
               5 - Attribute Length Error.
               6 - Invalid ORIGIN Attribute.
               7 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
               8 - Invalid NEXT_HOP Attribute.
               9 - Optional Attribute Error.
              10 - Invalid Network Field.
              11 - Malformed AS_PATH.

Corrected Text
--------------
      Message Header Error subcodes:

               0 - Unspecific.
               1 - Connection Not Synchronized.
               2 - Bad Message Length.
               3 - Bad Message Type.

      OPEN Message Error subcodes:

               0 - Unspecific.
               1 - Unsupported Version Number.
               2 - Bad Peer AS.
               3 - Bad BGP Identifier.
               4 - Unsupported Optional Parameter.
               5 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
               6 - Unacceptable Hold Time.

      UPDATE Message Error subcodes:

               0 - Unspecific.
               1 - Malformed Attribute List.
               2 - Unrecognized Well-known Attribute.
               3 - Missing Well-known Attribute.
               4 - Attribute Flags Error.
               5 - Attribute Length Error.
               6 - Invalid ORIGIN Attribute.
               7 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
               8 - Invalid NEXT_HOP Attribute.
               9 - Optional Attribute Error.
              10 - Invalid Network Field.
              11 - Malformed AS_PATH.

Notes
-----
RFC 4271 defines a use and a name for Error subcode 0:
- §4.5 (any error code): 
         If no appropriate Error Subcode is defined, then a zero
         (Unspecific) value is used for the Error Subcode field.

- §6.2 (OPEN error code): 
   If one of the Optional Parameters in the OPEN message is recognized,
   but is malformed, then the Error Subcode MUST be set to 0
   (Unspecific).

If verified, the "IANA Considerations" section and the IANA registry would also need to be updated accordingly (currently says "0 Reserved")
http://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-parameters/bgp-parameters.xhtml#bgp-parameters-4

--------------------------------------
RFC4271 (draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-26)
--------------------------------------
Title               : A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)
Publication Date    : January 2006
Author(s)           : Y. Rekhter, Ed., T. Li, Ed., S. Hares, Ed.
Category            : DRAFT STANDARD
Source              : Inter-Domain Routing
Area                : Routing
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


From nobody Thu Jul 14 20:19:32 2016
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From: Megan Ferguson <mferguson@amsl.com>
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, skh@nexthop.com, Yakov Rekhter <yakov@juniper.net>, tony.li@tony.li, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] [Errata Verified] RFC4271 (4493)
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All,

FYI - we forwarded this errata report to IANA and received confirmation =
that the requested updates have been made (please see =
http://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-parameters).

We have updated the Notes field of this report as follows:

Old:
If verified, the "IANA Considerations" section and the IANA registry =
would also need to be updated accordingly (currently says "0 Reserved")
=
http://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-parameters/bgp-parameters.xhtml#bgp-pa=
rameters-4

New:
The "IANA Considerations" section would also need to be updated =
accordingly (says "0 Reserved=94).  However, IANA has corrected the =
corresponding registry at =
http://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-parameters.

Thank you.

RFC Editor/mf


On Jul 14, 2016, at 5:45 AM, RFC Errata System =
<rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

> The following errata report has been verified for RFC4271,
> "A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)".=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4271&eid=3D4493
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> Status: Verified
> Type: Technical
>=20
> Reported by: Bruno Decraene <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
> Date Reported: 2015-10-06
> Verified by: Alvaro Retana (IESG)
>=20
> Section: 4.5
>=20
> Original Text
> -------------
>      Message Header Error subcodes:
>=20
>               1 - Connection Not Synchronized.
>               2 - Bad Message Length.
>               3 - Bad Message Type.
>=20
>      OPEN Message Error subcodes:
>=20
>               1 - Unsupported Version Number.
>               2 - Bad Peer AS.
>               3 - Bad BGP Identifier.
>               4 - Unsupported Optional Parameter.
>               5 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
>               6 - Unacceptable Hold Time.
>=20
>      UPDATE Message Error subcodes:
>=20
>               1 - Malformed Attribute List.
>               2 - Unrecognized Well-known Attribute.
>               3 - Missing Well-known Attribute.
>               4 - Attribute Flags Error.
>               5 - Attribute Length Error.
>               6 - Invalid ORIGIN Attribute.
>               7 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
>               8 - Invalid NEXT_HOP Attribute.
>               9 - Optional Attribute Error.
>              10 - Invalid Network Field.
>              11 - Malformed AS_PATH.
>=20
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>      Message Header Error subcodes:
>=20
>               0 - Unspecific.
>               1 - Connection Not Synchronized.
>               2 - Bad Message Length.
>               3 - Bad Message Type.
>=20
>      OPEN Message Error subcodes:
>=20
>               0 - Unspecific.
>               1 - Unsupported Version Number.
>               2 - Bad Peer AS.
>               3 - Bad BGP Identifier.
>               4 - Unsupported Optional Parameter.
>               5 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
>               6 - Unacceptable Hold Time.
>=20
>      UPDATE Message Error subcodes:
>=20
>               0 - Unspecific.
>               1 - Malformed Attribute List.
>               2 - Unrecognized Well-known Attribute.
>               3 - Missing Well-known Attribute.
>               4 - Attribute Flags Error.
>               5 - Attribute Length Error.
>               6 - Invalid ORIGIN Attribute.
>               7 - [Deprecated - see Appendix A].
>               8 - Invalid NEXT_HOP Attribute.
>               9 - Optional Attribute Error.
>              10 - Invalid Network Field.
>              11 - Malformed AS_PATH.
>=20
> Notes
> -----
> RFC 4271 defines a use and a name for Error subcode 0:
> - =A74.5 (any error code):=20
>         If no appropriate Error Subcode is defined, then a zero
>         (Unspecific) value is used for the Error Subcode field.
>=20
> - =A76.2 (OPEN error code):=20
>   If one of the Optional Parameters in the OPEN message is recognized,
>   but is malformed, then the Error Subcode MUST be set to 0
>   (Unspecific).
>=20
> If verified, the "IANA Considerations" section and the IANA registry =
would also need to be updated accordingly (currently says "0 Reserved")
> =
http://www.iana.org/assignments/bgp-parameters/bgp-parameters.xhtml#bgp-pa=
rameters-4
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4271 (draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-26)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)
> Publication Date    : January 2006
> Author(s)           : Y. Rekhter, Ed., T. Li, Ed., S. Hares, Ed.
> Category            : DRAFT STANDARD
> Source              : Inter-Domain Routing
> Area                : Routing
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
>=20


From nobody Fri Jul 15 02:29:28 2016
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From: Ondrej Zajicek <santiago@crfreenet.org>
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Subject: [Idr] Unspecified handling of multiple ADD-PATH capabilities
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Hi

draft-ietf-idr-add-paths-15 does not specify how multiple ADD-PATH
capability instances received in one OPEN message should be handled.

There are at least three incompatible possibilities:

1) Ignore all but first/last (like RFC 4724).

2) Merge on per-AF basis, use first/last per AF.

3) Merge on per-(AF+direction) basis


Note that RFC 5492 requires handling of multiple instances to be specified:

   BGP speakers MAY include more than one instance of a capability (as
   identified by the Capability Code) with non-zero Capability Length
   field, but with different Capability Value and either the same or
   different Capability Length.  Processing of these capability
   instances is specific to the Capability Code and MUST be described in
   the document introducing the new capability.

-- 
Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo

Ondrej 'Santiago' Zajicek (email: santiago@crfreenet.org)
OpenPGP encrypted e-mails preferred (KeyID 0x11DEADC3, wwwkeys.pgp.net)
"To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so."


From nobody Fri Jul 15 09:49:27 2016
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To: draft-liang-idr-flowspec-v1-time@ietf.org, idr@ietf.org
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 17:49:05 +0100
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------D0581DF5FE27F643A8778DC3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi

You seem to have specified this using 32bit Unix time.

To quote that well known reference Wikipedia:

  * At 03:14:08 UTC on Tuesday, 19 January 2038,32-bit versions of the
    Unix time stamp will cease to work
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem>, as it will
    overflow the largest value that can be held in a signed 32-bit
    number (7FFFFFFF_16 or2,147,483,647
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2147483647>). Before this moment,
    software using 32-bit time stamps will need to adopt a new
    convention for time stamps,^[20]
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time#cite_note-28> and file
    formats using 32-bit time stamps will need to be changed to support
    larger time stamps or a different epoch. If unchanged, the next
    second will be incorrectly interpreted as 20:45:52 Friday
    13 December 1901 UTC.


2038 is not actually that far away, and looks like it will need a 
protocol re-spin to fix.  It would seem to be a good idea to avoid this 
at design time by using a larger field for seconds, or an epoch that is 
less than  46 years old, or include an epoch for the BGP session (which 
allows compact representation and no practical end date)?

Regards

Stewart

--------------D0581DF5FE27F643A8778DC3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Hi<br>
    <br>
    You seem to have specified this using 32bit Unix time.<br>
    <br>
    To quote that well known reference Wikipedia:<br>
    <br>
    <ul style="list-style-type: disc; margin: 0.3em 0px 0px 1.6em;
      padding: 0px; list-style-image:
url(&quot;data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%3F%3E%0A%3Csvg%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20width%3D%225%22%20height%3D%2213%22%3E%0A%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%222.5%22%20cy%3D%229.5%22%20r%3D%222.5%22%20fill%3D%22%2300528c%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E%0A&quot;);
      color: rgb(37, 37, 37); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
      font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
      letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: auto;
      text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
      white-space: normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px;
      -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
      255);">
      <li style="margin-bottom: 0.1em;">At 03:14:08 UTC on Tuesday, 19
        January 2038,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
          href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem"
          title="Year 2038 problem" style="text-decoration: none; color:
          rgb(11, 0, 128); background: none;">32-bit versions of the
          Unix time stamp will cease to work</a>, as it will overflow
        the largest value that can be held in a signed 32-bit number
        (7FFFFFFF<sub style="line-height: 1; font-size: 11.2px;">16</sub><span
          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or<span
          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
          href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2147483647"
          class="mw-redirect" title="2147483647" style="text-decoration:
          none; color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background: none;">2,147,483,647</a>).
        Before this moment, software using 32-bit time stamps will need
        to adopt a new convention for time stamps,<sup id="cite_ref-28"
          class="reference" style="line-height: 1; unicode-bidi:
          isolate; white-space: nowrap; font-size: 11.2px; font-weight:
          normal; font-style: normal;"><a
            href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time#cite_note-28"
            style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(11, 0, 128);
            white-space: nowrap; background: none;">[20]</a></sup><span
          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>and file formats using
        32-bit time stamps will need to be changed to support larger
        time stamps or a different epoch. If unchanged, the next second
        will be incorrectly interpreted as 20:45:52 Friday
        13 December 1901 UTC.</li>
    </ul>
    <br>
    2038 is not actually that far away, and looks like it will need a
    protocol re-spin to fix.  It would seem to be a good idea to avoid
    this at design time by using a larger field for seconds, or an epoch
    that is less than  46 years old, or include an epoch for the BGP
    session (which allows compact representation and no practical end
    date)?<br>
    <br>
    Regards<br>
    <br>
    Stewart<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------D0581DF5FE27F643A8778DC3--


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Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing of the IETF.

        Title           : BGP Model for Service Provider Networks
        Authors         : Anees Shaikh
                          Rob Shakir
                          Keyur Patel
                          Susan Hares
                          Kevin D'Souza
                          Deepak Bansal
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Aleksandr Zhdankin
                          Mahesh Jethanandani
                          Xyfeng Liu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-02.txt
	Pages           : 98
	Date            : 2016-07-17

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model for configuring and managing
   BGP, including protocol, policy, and operational aspects based on
   data center, carrier and content provider operational requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com" <sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com>, "mdurrani@cisco.com" <mdurrani@cisco.com>, Liyizhou <liyizhou@huawei.com>, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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Hi Ross,

Sorry for late response.

Thanks for your great comments. Pls see inline.

weiguo

________________________________

From: Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27
To: Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com; md=
urrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder
Cc: idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon
Subject: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt

I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt.=
 For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac=
.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Summary:

I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have only a =
couple of questions and some very minor nits.

I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may make s=
ense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN cont=
roller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of this d=
raft to the work in TRILL I have CC=92d the TRILL working group on this rev=
iew and I assume that the TRILL working group will similarly be informed wh=
en the document goes to WGLC.


Questions:

Section 1, second to last paragraph states:

   If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) protocol
   [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each data center,
   BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability information
   synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.  End-to-end unicast
   forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchronized
   information.

Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN controll=
ers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one data cente=
r is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data center then=
 this would lead to significant issues which have not been discussed in thi=
s document.
[weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers is t=
he main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing from o=
ne data center and feeding back into another data center will cause signifi=
cant problems, can you explain further about this?

Section 5 (security considerations) states:

   Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this document do not
   affect the BGP security model.  See [RFC6952] for details.

I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all cases =
in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-specific =
issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capable d=
evices. I am also wondering whether there is any valid use of =93TRILL in B=
GP=94 other than passing TRILL information to SDN controllers. Passing TRIL=
L information from one TRILL domain to another TRILL domain and then redist=
ributing the information back into normal TRILL packets seems like a bad id=
ea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say something lik=
e =93this protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL information from TRI=
LL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL information between SD=
N controllers.
[weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information from on=
e domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL informati=
on from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. Can y=
ou explain further about why BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL informa=
tion from one domain to another domain?

Very minor nits:

Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this document=
 in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more normal to=
 have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for abbrev=
iations used in this document.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =93=85multicast group address, a=
nd  etc.=94 should be =93=85multicast group address, etc.=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 3.1, =93iS-IS=94 should be =93IS-IS=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a document=
 to reference itself, as in =93An implementation of this specification[idr-=
ls-trill], MUST do=85=94. Would this be a bit less awkward as: =93Any imple=
mentation of the protocol in this specification (ie that distributes TRILL =
Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=85=94.
[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.

That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,
Thanks, Ross


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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Hi Ross,</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Sorry for late response.</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">Thanks for your great comments. Pls se=
e inline.</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri">weiguo</font></p>
<p></p>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<p></p>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 16px=
">
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3D"divRpF789426"><font color=3D"#000000" s=
ize=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]<br=
>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27<br>
<b>To:</b> Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.=
com; mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01=
.txt<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
<div>I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01=
.txt. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
<a href=3D"http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir" target=3D"=
_blank"><font color=3D"blue"><u>http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wi=
ki/RtgDir</u></font></a>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Summary:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have on=
ly a couple of questions and some very minor nits.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may m=
ake sense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN=
 controller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of t=
his draft to the work in TRILL I
 have CC=92d the TRILL working group on this review and I assume that the T=
RILL working group will similarly be informed when the document goes to WGL=
C.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Questions:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 1, second to last paragraph states:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) p=
rotocol</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each =
data center,</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability info=
rmation</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.&nbsp; End-=
to-end unicast</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchroni=
zed</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; information.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN con=
trollers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one data =
center is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data center=
 then this would lead to significant
 issues which have not been discussed in this document. </div>
<div>[weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers=
 is the main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing f=
rom one data center and feeding back into another data center will cause si=
gnificant problems, can you explain
 further about this?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 5 (security considerations) states:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this docume=
nt do not</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; affect the BGP security model.&nbsp; See [RFC6952] for de=
tails.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all c=
ases in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-spec=
ific issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capa=
ble devices. I am also wondering
 whether there is any valid use of =93TRILL in BGP=94 other than passing TR=
ILL information to SDN controllers. Passing TRILL information from one TRIL=
L domain to another TRILL domain and then redistributing the information ba=
ck into normal TRILL packets seems like
 a bad idea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say some=
thing like =93this protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL information=
 from TRILL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL information b=
etween SDN controllers.
</div>
<div>[weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information fr=
om one domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL info=
rmation from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. =
Can you explain further about why
 BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL information from one domain to anot=
her domain?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Very minor nits:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this doc=
ument in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more norm=
al to have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for a=
bbreviations used in this document.
</div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
<div>Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =93=85multicast group addre=
ss, and&nbsp; etc.=94 should be =93=85multicast group address, etc.=94.
</div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>Section 3.1, =93iS-IS=94 should be =93IS-IS=94. </div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a doc=
ument to reference itself, as in =93An implementation of this specification=
[idr-ls-trill], MUST do=85=94. Would this be a bit less awkward as: =93Any =
implementation of the protocol in this specification
 (ie that distributes TRILL Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=85=
=94. </div>
<div>
<div>[weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,</di=
v>
<div>Thanks, Ross</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DD5FC8DE455C3348B94340C0AB55173350D676F3nkgeml513mbxchi_--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 03:03:56 -0700
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Subject: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Resending ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>




On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,
other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


>
> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
> those ?
>

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me
is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND).
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @
non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes,
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy
changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with
normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about
combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is
willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.


>
> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding
WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a
request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same
type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is
error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh
ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another
request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel
refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for
it.


>
> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries
> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you
> think ?
>

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same
time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
internal logic ;-).


>
> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.
I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to
wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring
to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported,
possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

-- tony




--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--001a1145180a4a88170537fa36db
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Resending ...=C2=A0<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---=
------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Tony Przygienda</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmai=
l.com">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:0=
4 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt">=
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robe=
rt@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Ra=
szuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_=
blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">Hi Tony,</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hey =
Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, oth=
er authors of the draft may have differing opinions.=C2=A0</div><span class=
=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can =
you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-list w=
hen you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that ORF al=
so includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 - would all of those b=
e always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>We didn&#39;t discuss that one thr=
ough but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installe=
d are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull, re=
mote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being flipped around all the tim=
e (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-persistent, one shot ORF but=
 that ended up expiring?)</div><div><br></div><div>The motivation for this =
work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurr=
ent bunch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped rece=
ived routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and=
 so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove ORFs is significantly hea=
vier process that may interfere on top with normal update process going on =
and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoR=
R pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing=
 with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by =
RTC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each sub=
set of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just =
fine.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID=
 value ?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Yes, Refr=
esh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the=
 BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MU=
ST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same sequence=
 as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we should probabl=
y specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type #3 messa=
ge but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is error). This =
will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).=C2=A0 In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0</div=
><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refres=
h message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries =
already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes agains=
t all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that Refr=
esh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think =
?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I agree. Yes, OR=
F is kind of =C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the inten=
t of this draft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ =
same time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation=
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0</div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as current types why not add regula=
r/extended community ?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>D=
iscussion came up. Feeling was it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territo=
ry. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we ch=
ose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people=
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0</div><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>-- tony=C2=A0<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div></font></span></div>
</div></div>
</div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signa=
ture" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>We=E2=80=
=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the=
 complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i=
s not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif"><br></font><=
/i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"ti=
mes new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><br></div></div=
></div>
</div></div>

--001a1145180a4a88170537fa36db--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 04:43:57 -0700
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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yep, sorry, I missed that I only answered ORF and not RTC

As example look at 7432 section 7.9. Box of Pandora has been opened a while
ago, route type being the other one ...

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 3:03 AM, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Resending ...
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt
> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>
> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>
>
>>
>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
>> those ?
>>
>
> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me
> is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND=
).
> I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not bein=
g
> flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @
> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>
> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh i=
s
> needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes=
,
> peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy
> changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and
> remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top wi=
th
> normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you
> have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about
> combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one i=
s
> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>
>
>>
>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>
>
> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NO=
T
> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRR=
s
> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic).
> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mix=
ed
> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anythin=
g
> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of th=
e
> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no
> BoRR for it.
>
>
>>
>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries
>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't yo=
u
>> think ?
>>
>
> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ sam=
e
> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
> internal logic ;-).
>
>
>>
>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>
>
> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, w=
e
> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)
>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>
> -- tony
>
>
>
>
> --
> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could =
produce
> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
> that is not true.*
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>



--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--001a1135018cfa5af00537fb9b52
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">yep, sorry, I missed that I only answered ORF and not RTC=
=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>As example look at 7432 section 7.9. Box of Pando=
ra has been opened a while ago, route type being the other one ...=C2=A0</d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, =
Jul 19, 2016 at 3:03 AM, Tony Przygienda <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Resending ..=
.=C2=A0<div><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------=
- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Tony =
Przygienda</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Jul 11,=
 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-opti=
ons-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-id=
r-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt</a><br>To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>Cc=
: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;<br><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">ro=
bert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Hi Tony,</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hey Robert, t=
hanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other author=
s of the draft may have differing opinions.=C2=A0</div><span><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Can you clarify what is =
the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-list when you negotiate bo=
th Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent e=
xtension as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical A=
ND towards a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div></span><div>We didn&#39;t discuss that one through but the only lo=
gical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e=
. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy o=
n the peer that is not being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR ther=
e were some attempts @ non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expir=
ing?)</div><div><br></div><div>The motivation for this work were scenarios =
where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those b=
ased on configuration changes, peer having dropped received routes based on=
 specs (A-D), in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF =
on a peer, refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that ma=
y interfere on top with normal update process going on and needs to be done=
 one-by-one (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one i=
s very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing with the DEFER/IMME=
DIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is suppo=
rted &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that m=
ay need refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0</div><sp=
an><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Would y=
ou always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0</div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div></span><div>Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic s=
o there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that =
the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoR=
R, only that BoRRs must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also str=
ictly monotonic). However, we should probably specify that options _and_ OR=
F can NOT be mixed in the same type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or t=
he other (and anything else is error). This will allow ORF operations like =
today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can g=
o on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto w=
e allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEFER the=
re will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0</div><span><div>=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out i=
n the new model and sends refresh message with new refresh_id and no option=
s however there are ORF entries already installed in the past would he get =
just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words I think =
the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOV=
E actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div></span><div>I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&q=
uot; on the peer while the intent of this draft is to have bunch of &quot;s=
mall refreshes&quot; going on @ same time possibly (if you request the refr=
eshes from a good implementation while low-end implementations may serializ=
e the requests to simplify internal logic ;-).=C2=A0</div><span><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As far as current typ=
es why not add regular/extended community ?</div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div></span><div>Discussion came up. Feeling was it&#39;s an immediate e=
ncroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0Ultimately, taking a mor=
e relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the response is and most pres=
sing use cases people bring to it and then we start to define bits and byte=
s of the options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF sp=
ecs ;-) =C2=A0As in &quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... =
;-)=C2=A0</div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>-- tony=C2=
=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div></font></span></div>
</div></div>
</div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font fac=
e=3D"georgia, serif"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=
=3D"garamond, serif"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
8000001907349px"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wile=
nsky</font></span><br></div></div></div>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, seri=
f"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou=
ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, =
we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif=
"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><f=
ont face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><=
br></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a1135018cfa5af00537fb9b52--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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--001a11476366492fd70537fc2b5f
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Tony,

Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to include VLAN ID
but equally well it says  that it may be locally generated.

As someone pointed at this IETF term "MAY" = "MAY NOT" hence any actions
based on that is likely to fail.

Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manually query the
peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. which is what is
really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail.

Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols which are not
guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operational issues in
multi vendor environments.

Thx
R.

--001a11476366492fd70537fc2b5f
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<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to inc=
lude VLAN ID but equally well it says=C2=A0 that it may be locally generate=
d. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">As someone pointed at this IETF term &quot;MAY&quot; =3D &qu=
ot;MAY NOT&quot; hence any actions based on that is likely to fail.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manu=
ally query the peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. w=
hich is what is really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols =
which are not guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operati=
onal issues in multi vendor environments. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thx<br>
R.</p>

--001a11476366492fd70537fc2b5f--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 05:56:02 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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OK, agreed in principle on 7.9.

In fact, we were oscillating between RD (with or without prefix length)
filter + address prefix filter and just 'NLRI filter' but given NLRI we
need to add RD anyway in there. The RD filter allows you to wildcard the
RD, i.e. you can e.g. request prefix/address update from your peer without.

We can start to split hair as well that section 8.2.1 does NOT give you the
flexibility to do anything else but structure the RD ...

Overall, I think the Pandora's box is open and it's better to allow an RD
filter to at least wildcard RDs ...

--- tony

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Tony,
>
> Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to include VLAN ID
> but equally well it says  that it may be locally generated.
>
> As someone pointed at this IETF term "MAY" =3D "MAY NOT" hence any action=
s
> based on that is likely to fail.
>
> Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manually query th=
e
> peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. which is what =
is
> really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail.
>
> Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols which are not
> guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operational issues =
in
> multi vendor environments.
>
> Thx
> R.
>



--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--001a11409584beb5e80537fc9d97
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">OK, agreed in principle on 7.9.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I=
n fact, we were oscillating between RD (with or without prefix length) filt=
er + address prefix filter and just &#39;NLRI filter&#39; but given NLRI we=
 need to add RD anyway in there. The RD filter allows you to wildcard the R=
D, i.e. you can e.g. request prefix/address update from your peer without.=
=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>We can start to split hair as well that section 8=
.2.1 does NOT give you the flexibility to do anything else but structure th=
e RD ...=C2=A0<br><div><br></div><div>Overall, I think the Pandora&#39;s bo=
x is open and it&#39;s better to allow an RD filter to at least wildcard RD=
s ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div><div>--- tony=C2=A0</div></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2=
016 at 5:24 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to inc=
lude VLAN ID but equally well it says=C2=A0 that it may be locally generate=
d. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">As someone pointed at this IETF term &quot;MAY&quot; =3D &qu=
ot;MAY NOT&quot; hence any actions based on that is likely to fail.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manu=
ally query the peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. w=
hich is what is really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols =
which are not guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operati=
onal issues in multi vendor environments. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thx<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
R.</font></span></p>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, seri=
f"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou=
ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, =
we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif=
"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><f=
ont face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><=
br></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a11409584beb5e80537fc9d97--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Tony

Yes you have RD *prefix* not RD fixed value there which is a good progress
;).

But you just can not use RD to even query prefixes (of those SAFIS which
use it) in any automated way simply as your PE does not know it. Human
could use it but this is I hope not the main motivation of your draft.

So if you want to query say VPN safi you need RT + NLRI not RD. In those
query you would define and use the notion of ANY_RD flag implicitely or
explicitely.

Till someone at next ietf proposes new safi to auto discover all RDs in the
network which I hope will never happen use of RD for filtering or query
should be removed.

Best,
R.

On Jul 19, 2016 2:56 PM, "Tony Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> OK, agreed in principle on 7.9.
>
> In fact, we were oscillating between RD (with or without prefix length)
> filter + address prefix filter and just 'NLRI filter' but given NLRI we
> need to add RD anyway in there. The RD filter allows you to wildcard the
> RD, i.e. you can e.g. request prefix/address update from your peer withou=
t.
>
> We can start to split hair as well that section 8.2.1 does NOT give you
> the flexibility to do anything else but structure the RD ...
>
> Overall, I think the Pandora's box is open and it's better to allow an RD
> filter to at least wildcard RDs ...
>
> --- tony
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Tony,
>>
>> Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to include VLAN ID
>> but equally well it says  that it may be locally generated.
>>
>> As someone pointed at this IETF term "MAY" =3D "MAY NOT" hence any actio=
ns
>> based on that is likely to fail.
>>
>> Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manually query
>> the peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. which is
>> what is really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail.
>>
>> Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols which are no=
t
>> guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operational issues=
 in
>> multi vendor environments.
>>
>> Thx
>> R.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could =
produce
> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
> that is not true.*
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>

--94eb2c06266abcae320537fcc0c2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Yes you have RD *prefix* not RD fixed value there which is a=
 good progress ;).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">But you just can not use RD to even query prefixes (of those=
 SAFIS which use it) in any automated way simply as your PE does not know i=
t. Human could use it but this is I hope not the main motivation of your dr=
aft.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">So if you want to query say VPN safi you need RT + NLRI not =
RD. In those query you would define and use the notion of ANY_RD flag impli=
citely or explicitely.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Till someone at next ietf proposes new safi to auto discover=
 all RDs in the network which I hope will never happen use of RD for filter=
ing or query should be removed.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Best,<br>
R.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 19, 2016 2=
:56 PM, &quot;Tony Przygienda&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">OK, agreed in principle on 7.9.=C2=A0<d=
iv><br></div><div>In fact, we were oscillating between RD (with or without =
prefix length) filter + address prefix filter and just &#39;NLRI filter&#39=
; but given NLRI we need to add RD anyway in there. The RD filter allows yo=
u to wildcard the RD, i.e. you can e.g. request prefix/address update from =
your peer without.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>We can start to split hair as w=
ell that section 8.2.1 does NOT give you the flexibility to do anything els=
e but structure the RD ...=C2=A0<br><div><br></div><div>Overall, I think th=
e Pandora&#39;s box is open and it&#39;s better to allow an RD filter to at=
 least wildcard RDs ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div><div>--- tony=C2=A0=
</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to inc=
lude VLAN ID but equally well it says=C2=A0 that it may be locally generate=
d. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">As someone pointed at this IETF term &quot;MAY&quot; =3D &qu=
ot;MAY NOT&quot; hence any actions based on that is likely to fail.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manu=
ally query the peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. w=
hich is what is really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols =
which are not guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operati=
onal issues in multi vendor environments. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thx<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
R.</font></span></p>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-sm=
artmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard th=
at a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete work=
s of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</i=
></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif"><br></font></i></div><div>=
<span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"times new roman,=
 serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><br></div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c06266abcae320537fcc0c2--


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<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
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<style id=3D"owaParaStyle">P {
	MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</style>
</head>
<body fPStyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr" id=3D"divRpF951056"><font color=3D"#000000" s=
ize=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB:</b> Idr [idr-bounces@ietf.=
org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Robert Raszuk [robert@raszuk.net]<br>
<b>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:</b> 2016=C4=EA7=D4=C219=C8=D5 21:06<br>
<b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB:</b> Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>=B3=AD=CB=CD:</b> idr wg<br>
<b>=D6=F7=CC=E2:</b> Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.i=
etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Yes you have RD *prefix* not RD fixed value there which is a=
 good progress ;).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">But you just can not use RD to even query prefixes (of those=
 SAFIS which use it) in any automated way simply as your PE does not know i=
t. Human could use it but this is I hope not the main motivation of your dr=
aft.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">So if you want to query say VPN safi you need RT &#43; NLRI =
not RD. In those query you would define and use the notion of ANY_RD flag i=
mplicitely or explicitely.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">[Xiaohu] In fact, this draft&nbsp;(<a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-xu-bess-l3vpn-prefix-orf-02">https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-xu-bess-l3vpn-prefix-orf-02</a>)&nbsp;is just intended to achieve t=
he above goal (i.e., requesting&nbsp;partial routes
 of a given VPN)&nbsp;.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Best regards,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Xiaohu</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Till someone at next ietf proposes new safi to auto discover=
 all RDs in the network which I hope will never happen use of RD for filter=
ing or query should be removed.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Best,<br>
R.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 19, 2016 2:56 PM, &quot;Tony Przygienda&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr">OK, agreed in principle on 7.9.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In fact, we were oscillating between RD (with or without prefix length=
) filter &#43; address prefix filter and just 'NLRI filter' but given NLRI =
we need to add RD anyway in there. The RD filter allows you to wildcard the=
 RD, i.e. you can e.g. request prefix/address
 update from your peer without.&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can start to split hair as well that section 8.2.1 does NOT give yo=
u the flexibility to do anything else but structure the RD ...&nbsp;<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Overall, I think the Pandora's box is open and it's better to allow an=
 RD filter to at least wildcard RDs ...&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>--- tony&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Robert Raszuk <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Section 7.9 only mentions that RD *MAY BE* structured to inc=
lude VLAN ID but equally well it says&nbsp; that it may be locally generate=
d.
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">As someone pointed at this IETF term &quot;MAY&quot; =3D &qu=
ot;MAY NOT&quot; hence any actions based on that is likely to fail.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Said this while perhaps someone can use your RD type to manu=
ally query the peer for subset of routes then for any automated action .. w=
hich is what is really need say when you modify RT import list it will fail=
.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Bottom line I think we should not add elements to protocols =
which are not guaranteed to work if for nothing else then to reduce operati=
onal issues in multi vendor environments.
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thx<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
R.</font></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>We=A1=
=AFve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the=
 complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i=
s not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif"><br>
</font></i></div>
<div><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">=
=A1=AARobert Wilensky</font></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 23:52:16 +0200
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To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
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Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Jie,

To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type*
ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.

I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to
INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior. Also
existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.

Many thx,
R.




On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
>
>
> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>
>
>
> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony Przygienda
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt
>
>
>
> Resending ...
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt
> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Tony,
>
>
>
> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>
>
>
>
>
> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
> those ?
>
>
>
> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me
> is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND=
).
> I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not bein=
g
> flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @
> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>
>
>
> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts=
:
> draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, these
> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If people
> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors would =
be
> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>
>
>
> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh i=
s
> needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes=
,
> peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy
> changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and
> remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top wi=
th
> normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you
> have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about
> combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one i=
s
> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>
>
>
> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time
> ORF drafts.
>
>
>
>
>
> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>
>
>
> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NO=
T
> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRR=
s
> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic).
> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mix=
ed
> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anythin=
g
> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of th=
e
> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no
> BoRR for it.
>
>
>
>
>
> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries
> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you
> think ?
>
>
>
> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ sam=
e
> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
> internal logic ;-).
>
>
>
>
>
> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>
>
>
> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, w=
e
> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)
>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>
>
>
> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initiall=
y
> considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechani=
sm. Then we
> realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defin=
ed
> for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define thi=
s
> mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  Just to provide s=
ome background
> information since you also plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF
> types.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jie
>
>
>
> -- tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could =
produce
> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
> that is not true.*
>
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Jie,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small">To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to =
define *Route Type* ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I am not that much conv=
inced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF e=
ffectively producing one time behavior. Also existing Enhanced Route Refres=
h should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Many thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, =
2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
ie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Please see=
 some comments inline with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-=
refresh-options-00.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Can you clarify what is the expected behavi=
our as far as per peer filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with opt=
ions, ORF and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Ji=
e] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: dra=
ft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-commu=
nity-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Ji=
e] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time ORF d=
rafts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Would you always carry ORF with separate Re=
fresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new=
 model and sends refresh message with new refresh_id and no options however=
 there are ORF entries already installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">As far as current types why not add regular=
/extended community ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Ji=
e] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially con=
sidered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism. T=
hen we
 realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already define=
d for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define thi=
s mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just to prov=
ide some background information since you also plan to
 reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Jie<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Georgia&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a =
million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of =
Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span><=
/i><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=E2=80=94Robert Wilens=
ky</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114a72ae2ec394053804193b--


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From: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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--_000_D3B3F3D947283keyupateciscocom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Robert, Dongjie,

Comments inlined #Keyur

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Jie,

To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.

#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction b=
ased filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence ch=
ose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.

I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.

#Keyur: Ack.

Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.

#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for se=
lective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple concurre=
nt selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the line=
s of the solution suggested in the draft.

Regards,
Keyur



Many thx,
R.




On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com<mail=
to:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Tony Przygienda
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
To: Robert Raszuk; idr wg
Subject: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/int=
ernet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Resending ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>



On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,=
 other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-li=
st when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that OR=
F also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 - would all of tho=
se be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed those ?

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me i=
s that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). =
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being =
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-pe=
rsistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

[Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: =
draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-communi=
ty-orf. After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of re=
quirements at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds =
of mechanisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is =
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes, =
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes=
, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove O=
RFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with normal =
update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to =
wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about combining OR=
F possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI=
/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is willing to configure =
RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing th=
e same job just fine.

[Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time OR=
F drafts.


Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding=
 WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a r=
equest MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same=
 sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we shoul=
d probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type=
 #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is error). =
This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID#  on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.


If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message=
 with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already i=
nstalled in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all ORF=
 entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs h=
ave no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the inte=
nt of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same time=
 possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation while lo=
w-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify internal logic=
 ;-).


As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.=
 I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to w=
ait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring t=
o it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported, p=
ossibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere =
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

[Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially =
considered to make it a "selective route refresh" mechanism. Then we realiz=
ed that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined for O=
RF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this mecha=
nism as new "one-time" ORF types.  Just to provide some background informat=
ion since you also plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types.

Best regards,
Jie

-- tony




--
We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the=
 complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i=
s not true.
-Robert Wilensky


--_000_D3B3F3D947283keyupateciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.&nbsp;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please see some co=
mments inline with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fo=
nt-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Idr [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per pee=
r filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? N=
ote that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn't discuss that one thro=
ugh but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed=
 are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-=
pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] I think the =
attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one=
-time-prefix-orf &nbsp;and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] The motivati=
ons look similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?&nbsp=
;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is err=
or). This will allow ORF operations
 like today &#43; benefit of the Refresh ID# &nbsp;on the BoRR so the IMMED=
IATE can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (=
de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).&nbsp; In case of=
 DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refr=
esh message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entrie=
s already installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of &n=
bsp;&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this draft=
 is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time possi=
bly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it's an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) &nbsp;Ulti=
mately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the respo=
nse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) &nbsp;As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] Actually bef=
ore the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make=
 it a &#8220;selective route refresh&#8221; mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new &#8220;one-time&#8221; ORF types.&nbsp; Just to =
provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best regards,<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jie<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; f=
ont-family: Georgia, serif;">We&#8217;ve heard that a million monkeys at a =
million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, tha=
nks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">&#8212;Robert Wilensky</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 00:29:45 +0200
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To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
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Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Keyur,

The missing part seems to be justification if we really need "transaction
based filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.

What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft needs
to state it clearly.

The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway .. they
are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardless what
filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go with the
notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing you to
have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)

Thx,
r.


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <keyupate@cisco.co=
m
> wrote:

> Robert, Dongjie,
>
> Comments inlined #Keyur
>
> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
> To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt
>
> Hi Jie,
>
> To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type*
> ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.
>
> #Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction
> based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence
> chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.
>
> I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to
> INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
>
> #Keyur: Ack.
>
> Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.
>
> #Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for
> selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple
> concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much alon=
g
> the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.
>
> Regards,
> Keyur
>
>
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony Przygienda
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
>> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options=
-00.txt
>>
>>
>>
>> Resending ...
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options=
-00.txt
>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote=
:
>>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
>> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
>> those ?
>>
>>
>>
>> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for m=
e
>> is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AN=
D).
>> I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not bei=
ng
>> flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @
>> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>>
>>
>>
>> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF
>> drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
>> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, thes=
e
>> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If people
>> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors would=
 be
>> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh
>> is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
>> changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in
>> policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer,
>> refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interf=
ere
>> on top with normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-o=
ne
>> (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very sm=
art
>> about combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
>> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one =
is
>> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
>> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time
>> ORF drafts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
>> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does N=
OT
>> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoR=
Rs
>> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic)=
.
>> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mi=
xed
>> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anythi=
ng
>> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of t=
he
>> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
>> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
>> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply n=
o
>> BoRR for it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries
>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't yo=
u
>> think ?
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
>> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ sa=
me
>> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
>> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
>> internal logic ;-).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
>> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, =
we
>> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
>> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
>> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-=
)
>>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we
>> initially considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=
=9D mechanism. Then
>> we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already
>> defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to
>> define this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  Just=
 to provide some
>> background information since you also plan to reuse the format of the
>> existing ORF types.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Jie
>>
>>
>>
>> -- tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could=
 produce
>> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
>> that is not true.*
>>
>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Keyur,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">The missing part seems to be justification if we re=
ally need &quot;transaction based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having=
 permanent ones.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
>What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dr=
aft needs to state it clearly.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really=
 permanent anyway .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given =
filter - regardless what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...)=
. And if you go with the notion that permanent are sufficient the entire ap=
aratus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goe=
s away :)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;=
font-size:small">r.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM=
, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@c=
isco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.=C2=A0</div><span c=
lass=3D"">
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>#Keyur: Ack.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going =
to be for selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multi=
ple concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much al=
ong the lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur=C2=A0</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see some comments in=
line with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer f=
ilter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note=
 that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] I think the attempts =
you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-pre=
fix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] The motivations look =
similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh=
 message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries a=
lready installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] Actually before the o=
ne-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make it a =E2=
=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just=
 to provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jie<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114763664034a30538049f82--


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Keyur,

Please see my comments inline with [Jie2]:

From: Keyur Patel (keyupate) [mailto:keyupate@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 6:18 AM
To: Robert Raszuk; Dongjie (Jimmy)
Cc: idr wg
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Robert, Dongjie,

Comments inlined #Keyur

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Jie,

To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.

#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction b=
ased filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence ch=
ose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.

[Jie2]: This was also my understanding in the beginning of writing the one-=
time orf drafts. However since you need traffic filters for this "selective=
 refresh", you will find out it is already there with ORF, then you will wa=
nt to reuse the filters. Actually it is something between the traditional r=
efresh and the traditional ORF,  IMO the name does not really matter, the i=
mportant thing is we can reuse what already exists.

I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.

#Keyur: Ack.

Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.

#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for se=
lective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple concurre=
nt selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the line=
s of the solution suggested in the draft.

[Jie2] For the concurrent refresh part, could you elaborate in which case i=
t will be needed? The draft says "The BGP speaker responding to  the route =
refresh requests MAY perform the refreshes in parallel", do you mean the ro=
ute updates for different selective refresh requests may be interleaved?

Best regards
Jie

Regards,
Keyur



Many thx,
R.




On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com<mail=
to:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Tony Przygienda
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
To: Robert Raszuk; idr wg
Subject: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/int=
ernet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Resending ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>


On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,=
 other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-li=
st when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that OR=
F also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 - would all of tho=
se be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed those ?

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me i=
s that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). =
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being =
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-pe=
rsistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

[Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: =
draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-communi=
ty-orf. After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of re=
quirements at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds =
of mechanisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is =
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes, =
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes=
, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove O=
RFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with normal =
update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to =
wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about combining OR=
F possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI=
/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is willing to configure =
RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing th=
e same job just fine.

[Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time OR=
F drafts.


Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding=
 WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a r=
equest MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same=
 sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we shoul=
d probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type=
 #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is error). =
This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID#  on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.


If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message=
 with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already i=
nstalled in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all ORF=
 entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs h=
ave no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the inte=
nt of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same time=
 possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation while lo=
w-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify internal logic=
 ;-).


As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.=
 I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to w=
ait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring t=
o it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported, p=
ossibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere =
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

[Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially =
considered to make it a "selective route refresh" mechanism. Then we realiz=
ed that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined for O=
RF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this mecha=
nism as new "one-time" ORF types.  Just to provide some background informat=
ion since you also plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types.

Best regards,
Jie

-- tony




--
We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the=
 complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i=
s not true.
-Robert Wilensky


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</head>
<body lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Keyur,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please see=
 my comments inline with [Jie2]:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Keyur Patel (keyupate) [mailto:keyupate@cisco.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 6:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Dongjie (Jimmy)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.i=
etf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Robert, Dong=
jie,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Comments inl=
ined #Keyur<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Robert Raszuk &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawe=
i.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.t=
xt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hi Jie,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">To me what is perhaps missing i=
s just a new draft to define *Route Type* ORF to address some of those EVPN=
 new NLRI encodings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">#Keyur: ORFs=
 are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction based filters=
 (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence
 chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Jie2]: Th=
is was also my understanding in the beginning of writing the one-time orf d=
rafts. However since you need traffic filters for this &#8220;selective
 refresh&#8221;, you will find out it is already there with ORF, then you w=
ill want to reuse the filters. Actually it is something between the traditi=
onal refresh and the traditional ORF, &nbsp;IMO the name does not really ma=
tter, the important thing is we can reuse what
 already exists. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">I am not that much convinced if=
 one time ORF is needed as you are free to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effective=
ly producing one time behavior.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">#Keyur: Ack.=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Also existing Enhanced Route Re=
fresh should work with ORF too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">#Keyur: Ther=
e are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for selective pref=
ixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple concurrent
 selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the lines =
of the solution suggested in the draft.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Jie2] For=
 the concurrent refresh part, could you elaborate in which case it will be =
needed? The draft says &#8220;The BGP speaker responding to &nbsp;the
 route refresh requests MAY perform the refreshes in parallel&#8221;, do yo=
u mean the route updates for different selective refresh requests may be in=
terleaved?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regar=
ds<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jie<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Regards,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Keyur&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Many thx,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">On Tue, Jul =
19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei=
.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Tony,
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Please see some comments=
 inline with [Jie]:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:black">
 Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Resending ...&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">---------- Forwarded message =
----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at=
 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"=
_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Hi Tony,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Hey Robert, thanks for =
chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the d=
raft may have differing opinions.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviou=
r as far as per peer filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh
 with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent extension a=
s described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towards=
 a peer which pushed those ?&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">We didn't discuss that =
one through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF i=
nstalled are respected (i.e. it's an implicit
 AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not=
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Jie] I think the attemp=
ts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-=
prefix-orf
 &nbsp;and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisio=
ns, these drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If p=
eople found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors wo=
uld be happy to bring them back to discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">The motivation for this=
 work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concur=
rent bunch of those based on configuration
 changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in poli=
cy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh an=
d remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top wi=
th normal update process going on
 and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to wait for single BoRR/Eo=
RR pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playin=
g with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by=
 RTC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing
 to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT wi=
ll be doing the same job just fine.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Jie] The motivations lo=
ok similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refr=
esh_ID value ?&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Yes, Refresh-ID# is str=
ictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs =
to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate
 that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must fo=
llow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However,=
 we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the =
same type #3 message but it's either
 one or the other (and anything else is error). This will allow ORF operati=
ons like today &#43; benefit of the Refresh ID# &nbsp;on the BoRR so the IM=
MEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID=
# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes
 as you see).&nbsp; In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new m=
odel and sends refresh message with new refresh_id and no options
 however there are ORF entries already installed in the past would he get j=
ust the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words I think t=
he draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE=
 actions - don't you think ?&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">I agree. Yes, ORF is ki=
nd of &nbsp;&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of th=
is draft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on
 @ same time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementat=
ion while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify in=
ternal logic ;-).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:black">As far as current types why not add regular/e=
xtended community ?</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Discussion came up. Fee=
ling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) &n=
bsp;Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we
 chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases peo=
ple bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options s=
upported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) &nbsp;As i=
n &quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and
 such ... ;-)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">[Jie] Actually before th=
e one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered
 to make it a &#8220;selective route refresh&#8221; mechanism. Then we real=
ized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined for=
 ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this mec=
hanism as new &#8220;one-time&#8221; ORF types.&nbsp; Just to
 provide some background information since you also plan to reuse the forma=
t of the existing ORF types.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards,</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Jie</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony&nbsp;</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Georgia&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:black">We&#8217;ve heard that a mill=
ion monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works
 of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</sp=
an></i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;color:black">&#8212;=
Robert Wilensky</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Robert,

One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route-type=
 is introduced without a capability.  A PE may have had safi enabled but no=
t have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mapping to a sam=
e RT. A transactional filter attempts to solve it.

We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.

One more comment inlined #Keyur

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:29 PM
To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>>
Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>, id=
r wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Keyur,

The missing part seems to be justification if we really need "transaction b=
ased filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.

What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft needs t=
o state it clearly.

The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway .. they=
 are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardless what =
filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go with the =
notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing you to ha=
ve concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)

#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in context o=
f a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified or wit=
hdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transaction=
al filters.

Regards,
Keyur

Thx,
r.


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <keyupate@cisco.co=
m<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>> wrote:
Robert, Dongjie,

Comments inlined #Keyur

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Jie,

To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.

#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction b=
ased filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence ch=
ose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.

I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.

#Keyur: Ack.

Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.

#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for se=
lective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple concurre=
nt selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the line=
s of the solution suggested in the draft.

Regards,
Keyur



Many thx,
R.




On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com<mail=
to:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Tony Przygienda
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
To: Robert Raszuk; idr wg
Subject: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/int=
ernet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Resending ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>



On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,=
 other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-li=
st when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that OR=
F also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 - would all of tho=
se be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed those ?

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me i=
s that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). =
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being =
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-pe=
rsistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

[Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: =
draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-communi=
ty-orf. After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of re=
quirements at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds =
of mechanisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is =
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes, =
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes=
, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove O=
RFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with normal =
update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to =
wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about combining OR=
F possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI=
/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is willing to configure =
RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing th=
e same job just fine.

[Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time OR=
F drafts.


Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding=
 WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a r=
equest MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same=
 sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we shoul=
d probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type=
 #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is error). =
This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID#  on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.


If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message=
 with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already i=
nstalled in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all ORF=
 entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs h=
ave no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the inte=
nt of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same time=
 possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation while lo=
w-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify internal logic=
 ;-).


As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.=
 I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to w=
ait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring t=
o it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported, p=
ossibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere =
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

[Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially =
considered to make it a "selective route refresh" mechanism. Then we realiz=
ed that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined for O=
RF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this mecha=
nism as new "one-time" ORF types.  Just to provide some background informat=
ion since you also plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types.

Best regards,
Jie

-- tony




--
We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the=
 complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that i=
s not true.
-Robert Wilensky



--_000_D3B5343D474BDkeyupateciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route=
-type is introduced without a capability. &nbsp;A PE may have had safi enab=
led but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mappin=
g to a same RT. A transactional filter
 attempts to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One more comment inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:2=
9 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;, idr wg=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Keyur,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
The missing part seems to be justification if we really need &quot;transact=
ion based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having permanent ones.&nbsp;</=
div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dra=
ft needs to state it clearly.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really permanent anyw=
ay .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regard=
less what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go=
 with the notion that permanent are sufficient
 the entire aparatus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests=
 in flight goes away :)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in cont=
ext of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified o=
r withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transa=
ctional filters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Thx,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
r.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (k=
eyupate)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D""><span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please see some co=
mments inline with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fo=
nt-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Idr [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per pee=
r filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? N=
ote that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn't discuss that one thro=
ugh but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed=
 are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-=
pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] I think the =
attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one=
-time-prefix-orf &nbsp;and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] The motivati=
ons look similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?&nbsp=
;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is err=
or). This will allow ORF operations
 like today &#43; benefit of the Refresh ID# &nbsp;on the BoRR so the IMMED=
IATE can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (=
de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).&nbsp; In case of=
 DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refr=
esh message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entrie=
s already installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of &n=
bsp;&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this draft=
 is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time possi=
bly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif;">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it's an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) &nbsp;Ulti=
mately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the respo=
nse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) &nbsp;As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)&nbsp;<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] Actually bef=
ore the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make=
 it a &#8220;selective route refresh&#8221; mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new &#8220;one-time&#8221; ORF types.&nbsp; Just to =
provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best regards,<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jie<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; f=
ont-family: Georgia, serif;">We&#8217;ve heard that a million monkeys at a =
million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, tha=
nks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font=
-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">&#8212;Robert Wilensky</span><span lang=
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
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From: "Keyur Patel (keyupate)" <keyupate@cisco.com>
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 21:11:44 +0000
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--_000_D3B535AC474D9keyupateciscocom_
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Hi Jie,

Comments inlined #Keyur1

From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
Date: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 12:45 AM
To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com<mailto:keyupate@cisco.com>>, Robert Ras=
zuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Keyur,

Please see my comments inline with [Jie2]:

From: Keyur Patel (keyupate) [mailto:keyupate@cisco.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 6:18 AM
To: Robert Raszuk; Dongjie (Jimmy)
Cc: idr wg
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Robert, Dongjie,

Comments inlined #Keyur

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Hi Jie,

To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.

#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transaction b=
ased filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hence ch=
ose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.

[Jie2]: This was also my understanding in the beginning of writing the one-=
time orf drafts. However since you need traffic filters for this =93selecti=
ve refresh=94, you will find out it is already there with ORF, then you wil=
l want to reuse the filters. Actually it is something between the tradition=
al refresh and the traditional ORF,  IMO the name does not really matter, t=
he important thing is we can reuse what already exists.

#Keyur1: We could definitely work towards reusing what is there or merging =
some of the work. :)


I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.

#Keyur: Ack.

Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.

#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for se=
lective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple concurre=
nt selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the line=
s of the solution suggested in the draft.

[Jie2] For the concurrent refresh part, could you elaborate in which case i=
t will be needed? The draft says =93The BGP speaker responding to  the rout=
e refresh requests MAY perform the refreshes in parallel=94, do you mean th=
e route updates for different selective refresh requests may be interleaved=
?

#Keyur1: Exactly! More specifically a bgp speaker may be re-announcing rout=
e updates as part of multiple different refresh requests (same or with over=
lapping filters)).

Best Regards,
Keyur




Best regards
Jie

Regards,
Keyur



Many thx,
R.




On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com<mail=
to:jie.dong@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org>] On Beh=
alf Of Tony Przygienda
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
To: Robert Raszuk; idr wg
Subject: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/int=
ernet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt

Resending ...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/inte=
rnet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:robert@raszuk.net>>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org<mailto:idr@ietf.org>>


On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:ro=
bert@raszuk.net>> wrote:
Hi Tony,

Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself,=
 other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.


Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer filter-li=
st when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that OR=
F also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 - would all of tho=
se be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed those ?

We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for me i=
s that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implicit AND). =
I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not being =
flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @ non-pe=
rsistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)

[Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: =
draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-communi=
ty-orf. After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of re=
quirements at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds =
of mechanisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.

The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is =
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes, =
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy changes=
, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and remove O=
RFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with normal =
update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to =
wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very smart about combining OR=
F possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI=
/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one is willing to configure =
RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing th=
e same job just fine.

[Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-time OR=
F drafts.


Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?

Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding=
 WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate that a r=
equest MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow same=
 sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we shoul=
d probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same type=
 #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anything else is error). =
This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of the Refresh ID#  on =
the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with=
 higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you s=
ee).  In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.


If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh message=
 with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries already i=
nstalled in the past would he get just the subset of routes against all ORF=
 entries ? In other words I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs h=
ave no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't you think ?

I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the inte=
nt of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ same time=
 possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation while lo=
w-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify internal logic=
 ;-).


As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?

Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory.=
 I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to w=
ait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases people bring t=
o it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supported, p=
ossibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-)  As in "most sincere =
form of flattery" and such ... ;-)

[Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially =
considered to make it a =93selective route refresh=94 mechanism. Then we re=
alized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined f=
or ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this m=
echanism as new =93one-time=94 ORF types.  Just to provide some background =
information since you also plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF typ=
es.

Best regards,
Jie

-- tony




--
We=92ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce t=
he complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that=
 is not true.
=97Robert Wilensky


--_000_D3B535AC474D9keyupateciscocom_
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ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi Jie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur1</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1=
2:45 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Keyur,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please see my comm=
ents inline with [Jie2]:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fo=
nt-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> Keyur Patel (keyupa=
te) [<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com">mailto:keyupate@cisco.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 20, 2016 6:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Dongjie (Jimmy)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.t=
xt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Robert, Dongjie,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Comments inlined #Keyur<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: black;">Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@=
raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawe=
i.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.t=
xt">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">Hi Jie,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft =
to define *Route Type* ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">#Keyur: ORFs are permanent fi=
lters. We wanted to decouple the transaction based filters (one time per re=
fresh) from the permanent filters and
 hence chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.&nbsp;</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie2]: This was a=
lso my understanding in the beginning of writing the one-time orf drafts. H=
owever since you need traffic filters
 for this =93selective refresh=94, you will find out it is already there wi=
th ORF, then you will want to reuse the filters. Actually it is something b=
etween the traditional refresh and the traditional ORF, &nbsp;IMO the name =
does not really matter, the important thing
 is we can reuse what already exists.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur1: We could definitely work towards reusing what is there or mer=
ging some of the work. :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is ne=
eded as you are free to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one ti=
me behavior.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">#Keyur: Ack.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work w=
ith ORF too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">#Keyur: There are modificatio=
ns needed if the refresh is going to be for selective prefixes only. Furthe=
rmore, if we want to support multiple
 concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along=
 the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: bla=
ck;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie2] For the con=
current refresh part, could you elaborate in which case it will be needed? =
The draft says =93The BGP speaker responding
 to &nbsp;the route refresh requests MAY perform the refreshes in parallel=
=94, do you mean the route updates for different selective refresh requests=
 may be interleaved?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur1: Exactly! More specifically a bgp speaker may be re-announcing=
 route updates as part of multiple different refresh requests (same or with=
 overlapping filters)).&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best regards<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jie<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">Keyur&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">Many thx,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;">R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sa=
ns-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47=
 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_=
blank">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi Tony,
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please see some comments inline =
with [Jie]:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tah=
oma, sans-serif; color: black;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black;">
 Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Resending ...&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">---------- Forwarded message =
----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at=
 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"=
_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">Hi Tony,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Hey Robert, thanks for =
chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the d=
raft may have differing opinions.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per pee=
r filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh
 with options, ORF and RTC ? Note that ORF also includes recent extension a=
s described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towards=
 a peer which pushed those ?&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">We didn't discuss that =
one through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF i=
nstalled are respected (i.e. it's an implicit
 AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not=
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] I think the attempts you m=
entioned here are the one-time ORF drafts:
 draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf &nbsp;and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-c=
ommunity-orf. After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack=
 of requirements at that time. If people found some new use cases of these =
kinds of mechanisms, the authors would
 be happy to bring them back to discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">The motivation for this=
 work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concur=
rent bunch of those based on configuration
 changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in poli=
cy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh an=
d remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top wi=
th normal update process going on
 and needs to be done one-by-one (since you have to wait for single BoRR/Eo=
RR pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playin=
g with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by=
 RTC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing
 to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need refreshing, RT wi=
ll be doing the same job just fine.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] The motivations look simil=
ar to what we described for the one-time
 ORF drafts.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?&nbsp=
;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Yes, Refresh-ID# is str=
ictly monotonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs =
to. Observe that the draft does NOT mandate
 that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that BoRRs must fo=
llow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However,=
 we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the =
same type #3 message but it's either
 one or the other (and anything else is error). This will allow ORF operati=
ons like today &#43; benefit of the Refresh ID# &nbsp;on the BoRR so the IM=
MEDIATE can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID=
# (de facto we allow multiple parallel refreshes
 as you see).&nbsp; In case of DEFER there will be simply no BoRR for it.&n=
bsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refr=
esh message with new refresh_id and no options
 however there are ORF entries already installed in the past would he get j=
ust the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words I think t=
he draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE=
 actions - don't you think ?&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"colo=
r:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">I agree. Yes, ORF is ki=
nd of &nbsp;&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of th=
is draft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on
 @ same time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementat=
ion while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify in=
ternal logic ;-).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: black;">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Discussion came up. Fee=
ling was it's an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) &n=
bsp;Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we
 chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases peo=
ple bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options s=
upported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) &nbsp;As i=
n &quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and
 such ... ;-)&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Jie] Actually before the one-ti=
me ORF drafts were submitted, we initially
 considered to make it a =93selective route refresh=94 mechanism. Then we r=
ealized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already defined =
for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to define this =
mechanism as new =93one-time=94 ORF types.&nbsp;
 Just to provide some background information since you also plan to reuse t=
he format of the existing ORF types.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best regards,</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jie</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony&nbsp;</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: Ge=
orgia, serif; color: black;">We=92ve heard that a million monkeys at a mill=
ion keyboards could produce the complete works
 of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.</sp=
an></i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;color:black">=97Robe=
rt Wilensky</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: black;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D3B535AC474D9keyupateciscocom_--


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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Keyur,

On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions without any IDR WG
review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (and this is not
the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly designed.

And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to introduce
even more questionable knobs in BGP.

In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF
filters and you are done. Case solved :).

Best,
R.


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <keyupate@cisco.co=
m
> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new
> route-type is introduced without a capability.  A PE may have had safi
> enabled but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all
> mapping to a same RT. A transactional filter attempts to solve it.
>
> We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.
>
> One more comment inlined #Keyur
>
> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:29 PM
> To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com>
> Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-=
00.txt
>
> Hi Keyur,
>
> The missing part seems to be justification if we really need "transaction
> based filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.
>
> What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft needs
> to state it clearly.
>
> The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway ..
> they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardless
> what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go wi=
th
> the notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing you
> to have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)
>
> #Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in context
> of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified or
> withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from
> transactional filters.
>
> Regards,
> Keyur
>
> Thx,
> r.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Robert, Dongjie,
>>
>> Comments inlined #Keyur
>>
>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
>> To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options=
-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Jie,
>>
>> To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type*
>> ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.
>>
>> #Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transactio=
n
>> based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and henc=
e
>> chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.
>>
>> I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free t=
o
>> INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
>>
>> #Keyur: Ack.
>>
>> Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.
>>
>> #Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be for
>> selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple
>> concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much alo=
ng
>> the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Keyur
>>
>>
>>
>> Many thx,
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tony,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony Przygiend=
a
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
>>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
>>> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-option=
s-00.txt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Resending ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-option=
s-00.txt
>>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Tony,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
>>> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ?
>>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
>>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
>>> those ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for
>>> me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implici=
t
>>> AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is =
not
>>> being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempt=
s @
>>> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF
>>> drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
>>> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, the=
se
>>> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If people
>>> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors woul=
d be
>>> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh
>>> is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
>>> changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in
>>> policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer,
>>> refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may inter=
fere
>>> on top with normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-=
one
>>> (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very s=
mart
>>> about combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we
>>> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & one=
 is
>>> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
>>> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the one-tim=
e
>>> ORF drafts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
>>> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does =
NOT
>>> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that Bo=
RRs
>>> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic=
).
>>> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be m=
ixed
>>> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anyth=
ing
>>> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of =
the
>>> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
>>> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
>>> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply =
no
>>> BoRR for it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entrie=
s
>>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should state
>>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't y=
ou
>>> think ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
>>> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ s=
ame
>>> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
>>> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
>>> internal logic ;-).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
>>> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view,=
 we
>>> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
>>> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
>>> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;=
-)
>>>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we
>>> initially considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=
=80=9D mechanism. Then
>>> we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already
>>> defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to
>>> define this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  Jus=
t to provide some
>>> background information since you also plan to reuse the format of the
>>> existing ORF types.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Jie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards coul=
d produce
>>> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
>>> that is not true.*
>>>
>>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>>>
>>
>>
>

--94eb2c123a102b63bc053818877b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Keyur,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extens=
ions without any IDR WG review the more I hear about cases like you bring b=
elow (and this is not the first one btw) the more I think it is really quit=
e badly designed.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to introdu=
ce even more questionable knobs in BGP.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed m=
odulo to RTC or ORF filters and you are done. Case solved :).</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route=
-type is introduced without a capability.=C2=A0 A PE may have had safi enab=
led but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mappin=
g to a same RT. A transactional filter
 attempts to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One more comment inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:2=
9 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;, idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id=
r@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</span></div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Keyur,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The missing part seems to be justification if we really need &quot;transact=
ion based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having permanent ones.=C2=A0</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dra=
ft needs to state it clearly.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really permanent anyw=
ay .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regard=
less what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go=
 with the notion that permanent are sufficient
 the entire aparatus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests=
 in flight goes away :)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in cont=
ext of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified o=
r withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transa=
ctional filters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
r.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (k=
eyupate)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.=C2=A0</div>
<span><span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.=C2=A0</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see some comments in=
line with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer f=
ilter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note=
 that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] I think the attempts =
you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-pre=
fix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] The motivations look =
similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh=
 message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries a=
lready installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] Actually before the o=
ne-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make it a =E2=
=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just=
 to provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jie<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c123a102b63bc053818877b--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:41:34 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+wi2hNjD+4Y3vfoDMXW2yzYiyv+9+Xhv=3ZTRumKkZcjY22Hg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Read the "longish" thread by now and between all this "let's do
filter/let's do pull (refresh)" I try to take a step back to see the forest=
:

a) To validate Niloo's point: 'f an implementation chooses to drop things
based on configuration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will
cause a complete refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go and
"install filter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2" and after
requesting type-6  (you can't defer remove-filter-2 step, otherwise you
won't receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all MACs. Pub-sub
with a single "filter-list" is simply NOT a good model to request arbitrary
pieces of routes missing (which is where the world is going, BGP database
is sharding to the point specs are recommending to "drop when you don't
need it" and we have the need to ask for very specific sets @ given points
in time [as the use cases describe]).

b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact that ORF language does not seem
to be an algebra, it's a program and you can only build a closure of
procedural programs by running them normally (not good to restrict sets you
process). In less abstract terms a refresh with filters that are OR'ed and
AND'ed (first order logic transitive closure) determines the cone you need
to walk on the RIB very easily (people implementing heavy-duty BGP will
know precisely what that means) whereas any change to the filter will cause
a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case of arbitrary mix of accepts and
rejects) without a lot of possibly hard logic to write (I didn't think
fully through it but I think it may be actually possible to write something
delivering closure from a generic ORF filter so it's an interesting
discussion). Even if you can build the closure, you can only run one at a
time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does some crazy state-ful query
optimization language to do wonders to squeeze multiple queries it needs
into a single ORFs it's doing (SQL query optimizers are _really_ complex
beasts) while the "you can put a filter on something to suppress it on
refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the moment you remove it"
persists.

For that 2 cases my take  is that it's better to move towards the model
proposed by a "filtered refresh" (independently of being co-author) rather
than a 'pub-sub'.

As ultimate, wider angle view of the world.

BGP will be offered more cycles to run (it already is ) but not in the form
of a single faster and faster CPU anymore but in form of multiple
cores/machines. A set of filtered refreshes can be parallelized fairly
easily when requested. A single ORF filter being manipulated on/off will as
described in a) possibly cause huge spurious refreshes and in b) a single
threat of execution serializing the synchronization between peers.

I hope that all can be parsed ...

Very good discussion overall no matter which way it goes ...

--- tony


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Keyur,
>
> On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions without any IDR W=
G
> review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (and this is not
> the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly designed.
>
> And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to
> introduce even more questionable knobs in BGP.
>
> In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF
> filters and you are done. Case solved :).
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new
>> route-type is introduced without a capability.  A PE may have had safi
>> enabled but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all
>> mapping to a same RT. A transactional filter attempts to solve it.
>>
>> We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.
>>
>> One more comment inlined #Keyur
>>
>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:29 PM
>> To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com>
>> Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options=
-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Keyur,
>>
>> The missing part seems to be justification if we really need "transactio=
n
>> based filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.
>>
>> What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft need=
s
>> to state it clearly.
>>
>> The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway ..
>> they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardles=
s
>> what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go w=
ith
>> the notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing yo=
u
>> to have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)
>>
>> #Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in contex=
t
>> of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified or
>> withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from
>> transactional filters.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Keyur
>>
>> Thx,
>> r.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
>> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Robert, Dongjie,
>>>
>>> Comments inlined #Keyur
>>>
>>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
>>> To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-option=
s-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Jie,
>>>
>>> To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type=
*
>>> ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the
>>> transaction based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent fil=
ters
>>> and hence chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.
>>>
>>> I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free
>>> to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: Ack.
>>>
>>> Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be fo=
r
>>> selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple
>>> concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much al=
ong
>>> the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Keyur
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thx,
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony
>>>> Przygienda
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
>>>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
>>>> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-optio=
ns-00.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Resending ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-optio=
ns-00.txt
>>>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
>>>> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>>>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC =
?
>>>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
>>>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
>>>> those ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for
>>>> me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implic=
it
>>>> AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is=
 not
>>>> being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attemp=
ts @
>>>> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF
>>>> drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
>>>> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, th=
ese
>>>> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If people
>>>> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors wou=
ld be
>>>> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refres=
h
>>>> is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
>>>> changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in
>>>> policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer,
>>>> refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may inte=
rfere
>>>> on top with normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by=
-one
>>>> (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very =
smart
>>>> about combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As w=
e
>>>> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & on=
e is
>>>> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
>>>> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the
>>>> one-time ORF drafts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
>>>> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does=
 NOT
>>>> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that B=
oRRs
>>>> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotoni=
c).
>>>> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be =
mixed
>>>> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anyt=
hing
>>>> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of=
 the
>>>> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
>>>> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
>>>> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply=
 no
>>>> BoRR for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>>>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entri=
es
>>>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>>>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should stat=
e
>>>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't =
you
>>>> think ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
>>>> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ =
same
>>>> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
>>>> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
>>>> internal logic ;-).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
>>>> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view=
, we
>>>> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
>>>> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
>>>> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs =
;-)
>>>>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we
>>>> initially considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=
=80=9D mechanism. Then
>>>> we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already
>>>> defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to
>>>> define this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  Ju=
st to provide some
>>>> background information since you also plan to reuse the format of the
>>>> existing ORF types.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Jie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou=
ld
>>>> produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet=
, we
>>>> know that is not true.*
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>
>


--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Read the &quot;longish&quot; thread by now and between all=
 this &quot;let&#39;s do filter/let&#39;s do pull (refresh)&quot; I try to =
take a step back to see the forest:<div><br></div><div>a) To validate Niloo=
&#39;s point: &#39;f an implementation chooses to drop things based on conf=
iguration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will cause a complet=
e refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go and &quot;install f=
ilter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2&quot; and after requesting=
 type-6 =C2=A0(you can&#39;t defer remove-filter-2 step, otherwise you won&=
#39;t receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all MACs. Pub-sub wi=
th a single &quot;filter-list&quot; is simply NOT a good model to request a=
rbitrary pieces of routes missing (which is where the world is going, BGP d=
atabase is sharding to the point specs are recommending to &quot;drop when =
you don&#39;t need it&quot; and we have the need to ask for very specific s=
ets @ given points in time [as the use cases describe]).=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact that ORF language d=
oes not seem to be an algebra, it&#39;s a program and you can only build a =
closure of procedural programs by running them normally (not good to restri=
ct sets you process). In less abstract terms a refresh with filters that ar=
e OR&#39;ed and AND&#39;ed (first order logic transitive closure) determine=
s the cone you need to walk on the RIB very easily (people implementing hea=
vy-duty BGP will know precisely what that means) whereas any change to the =
filter will cause a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case of arbitrary mix=
 of accepts and rejects) without a lot of possibly hard logic to write (I d=
idn&#39;t think fully through it but I think it may be actually possible to=
 write something delivering closure from a generic ORF filter so it&#39;s a=
n interesting discussion). Even if you can build the closure, you can only =
run one at a time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does some crazy state-fu=
l query optimization language to do wonders to squeeze multiple queries it =
needs into a single ORFs it&#39;s doing (SQL query optimizers are _really_ =
complex beasts) while the &quot;you can put a filter on something to suppre=
ss it on refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the moment you remove =
it&quot; persists.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For that 2 cases my take =
=C2=A0is that it&#39;s better to move towards the model proposed by a &quot=
;filtered refresh&quot; (independently of being co-author) rather than a &#=
39;pub-sub&#39;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As ultimate, wider angle vi=
ew of the world.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>BGP will be offered more cy=
cles to run (it already is ) but not in the form of a single faster and fas=
ter CPU anymore but in form of multiple cores/machines. A set of filtered r=
efreshes can be parallelized fairly easily when requested. A single ORF fil=
ter being manipulated on/off will as described in a) possibly cause huge sp=
urious refreshes and in b) a single threat of execution serializing the syn=
chronization between peers.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I hope that all =
can be parsed ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Very good discussion overa=
ll no matter which way it goes ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>--- tony=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@=
raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Keyur,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions wit=
hout any IDR WG review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (an=
d this is not the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly =
designed.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">And su=
ch bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to introduce even =
more questionable knobs in BGP.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to=
 RTC or ORF filters and you are done. Case solved :).</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div>=
<div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel=
 (keyupate) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route=
-type is introduced without a capability.=C2=A0 A PE may have had safi enab=
led but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mappin=
g to a same RT. A transactional filter
 attempts to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One more comment inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:2=
9 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;, idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id=
r@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</span></div><span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Keyur,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The missing part seems to be justification if we really need &quot;transact=
ion based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having permanent ones.=C2=A0</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dra=
ft needs to state it clearly.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really permanent anyw=
ay .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regard=
less what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go=
 with the notion that permanent are sufficient
 the entire aparatus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests=
 in flight goes away :)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in cont=
ext of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified o=
r withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transa=
ctional filters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div><div><div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
r.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (k=
eyupate)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.=C2=A0</div>
<span><span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.=C2=A0</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see some comments in=
line with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer f=
ilter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note=
 that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] I think the attempts =
you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-pre=
fix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] The motivations look =
similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh=
 message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries a=
lready installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] Actually before the o=
ne-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make it a =E2=
=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just=
 to provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jie<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, se=
rif"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards c=
ould produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet=
, we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, ser=
if"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">=
<font face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span=
><br></div></div></div>
</div>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Tony,

You have nicely summarized various discussed this week sub threads
happening bith on and off the list.

Except .. you did not list the most important .. to enumerate real protocol
level use cases which would justify this addition.

If we start with the problem (rather then just starting with "when we need
subset of routes") then perhaps it will be easy to adopt this work or we go
back and fix protocol encoding which are root cause of the problem you are
trying to patch with solutions like selective overlapping route refresh
messages.

Best,
R.

On Jul 21, 2016 5:42 PM, "Tony Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Read the "longish" thread by now and between all this "let's do
filter/let's do pull (refresh)" I try to take a step back to see the forest=
:

a) To validate Niloo's point: 'f an implementation chooses to drop things
based on configuration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will
cause a complete refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go and
"install filter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2" and after
requesting type-6  (you can't defer remove-filter-2 step, otherwise you
won't receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all MACs. Pub-sub
with a single "filter-list" is simply NOT a good model to request arbitrary
pieces of routes missing (which is where the world is going, BGP database
is sharding to the point specs are recommending to "drop when you don't
need it" and we have the need to ask for very specific sets @ given points
in time [as the use cases describe]).

b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact that ORF language does not seem
to be an algebra, it's a program and you can only build a closure of
procedural programs by running them normally (not good to restrict sets you
process). In less abstract terms a refresh with filters that are OR'ed and
AND'ed (first order logic transitive closure) determines the cone you need
to walk on the RIB very easily (people implementing heavy-duty BGP will
know precisely what that means) whereas any change to the filter will cause
a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case of arbitrary mix of accepts and
rejects) without a lot of possibly hard logic to write (I didn't think
fully through it but I think it may be actually possible to write something
delivering closure from a generic ORF filter so it's an interesting
discussion). Even if you can build the closure, you can only run one at a
time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does some crazy state-ful query
optimization language to do wonders to squeeze multiple queries it needs
into a single ORFs it's doing (SQL query optimizers are _really_ complex
beasts) while the "you can put a filter on something to suppress it on
refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the moment you remove it"
persists.

For that 2 cases my take  is that it's better to move towards the model
proposed by a "filtered refresh" (independently of being co-author) rather
than a 'pub-sub'.

As ultimate, wider angle view of the world.

BGP will be offered more cycles to run (it already is ) but not in the form
of a single faster and faster CPU anymore but in form of multiple
cores/machines. A set of filtered refreshes can be parallelized fairly
easily when requested. A single ORF filter being manipulated on/off will as
described in a) possibly cause huge spurious refreshes and in b) a single
threat of execution serializing the synchronization between peers.

I hope that all can be parsed ...

Very good discussion overall no matter which way it goes ...

--- tony


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Hi Keyur,
>
> On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions without any IDR W=
G
> review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (and this is not
> the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly designed.
>
> And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to
> introduce even more questionable knobs in BGP.
>
> In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF
> filters and you are done. Case solved :).
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new
>> route-type is introduced without a capability.  A PE may have had safi
>> enabled but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all
>> mapping to a same RT. A transactional filter attempts to solve it.
>>
>> We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.
>>
>> One more comment inlined #Keyur
>>
>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:29 PM
>> To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com>
>> Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options=
-00.txt
>>
>> Hi Keyur,
>>
>> The missing part seems to be justification if we really need "transactio=
n
>> based filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.
>>
>> What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft need=
s
>> to state it clearly.
>>
>> The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway ..
>> they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardles=
s
>> what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go w=
ith
>> the notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing yo=
u
>> to have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)
>>
>> #Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in contex=
t
>> of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified or
>> withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from
>> transactional filters.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Keyur
>>
>> Thx,
>> r.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
>> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Robert, Dongjie,
>>>
>>> Comments inlined #Keyur
>>>
>>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
>>> To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-option=
s-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Jie,
>>>
>>> To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type=
*
>>> ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the
>>> transaction based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent fil=
ters
>>> and hence chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.
>>>
>>> I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free
>>> to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: Ack.
>>>
>>> Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.
>>>
>>> #Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be fo=
r
>>> selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple
>>> concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much al=
ong
>>> the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Keyur
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many thx,
>>> R.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony
>>>> Przygienda
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
>>>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
>>>> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-optio=
ns-00.txt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Resending ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-optio=
ns-00.txt
>>>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
>>>> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>>>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC =
?
>>>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 -
>>>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushed
>>>> those ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion for
>>>> me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an implic=
it
>>>> AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that is=
 not
>>>> being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attemp=
ts @
>>>> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF
>>>> drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
>>>> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, th=
ese
>>>> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If people
>>>> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors wou=
ld be
>>>> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refres=
h
>>>> is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
>>>> changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in
>>>> policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer,
>>>> refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may inte=
rfere
>>>> on top with normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by=
-one
>>>> (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless one is very =
smart
>>>> about combining ORF possibly & playing with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As w=
e
>>>> indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC and RTC is supported & on=
e is
>>>> willing to configure RTs for each subset of routes that may need
>>>> refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the
>>>> one-time ORF drafts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
>>>> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft does=
 NOT
>>>> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that B=
oRRs
>>>> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotoni=
c).
>>>> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be =
mixed
>>>> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and anyt=
hing
>>>> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit of=
 the
>>>> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time as
>>>> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
>>>> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simply=
 no
>>>> BoRR for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>>>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entri=
es
>>>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>>>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should stat=
e
>>>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't =
you
>>>> think ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while the
>>>> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @ =
same
>>>> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
>>>> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
>>>> internal logic ;-).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
>>>> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view=
, we
>>>> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use cases
>>>> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
>>>> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs =
;-)
>>>>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we
>>>> initially considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=
=80=9D mechanism. Then
>>>> we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones already
>>>> defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to
>>>> define this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  Ju=
st to provide some
>>>> background information since you also plan to reuse the format of the
>>>> existing ORF types.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Jie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou=
ld
>>>> produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet=
, we
>>>> know that is not true.*
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>
>


--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--001a113fe4408554110538274583
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">You have nicely summarized various discussed this week sub t=
hreads happening bith on and off the list.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Except .. you did not list the most important .. to enumerat=
e real protocol level use cases which would justify this addition.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If we start with the problem (rather then just starting with=
 &quot;when we need subset of routes&quot;) then perhaps it will be easy to=
 adopt this work or we go back and fix protocol encoding which are root cau=
se of the problem you are trying to patch with solutions like selective ove=
rlapping route refresh messages.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Best,<br>
R.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 21, 2016 5=
:42 PM, &quot;Tony Przygienda&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote =
class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Read the &quot;longish&quot; thread by now an=
d between all this &quot;let&#39;s do filter/let&#39;s do pull (refresh)&qu=
ot; I try to take a step back to see the forest:<div><br></div><div>a) To v=
alidate Niloo&#39;s point: &#39;f an implementation chooses to drop things =
based on configuration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will ca=
use a complete refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go and &q=
uot;install filter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2&quot; and aft=
er requesting type-6 =C2=A0(you can&#39;t defer remove-filter-2 step, other=
wise you won&#39;t receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all MAC=
s. Pub-sub with a single &quot;filter-list&quot; is simply NOT a good model=
 to request arbitrary pieces of routes missing (which is where the world is=
 going, BGP database is sharding to the point specs are recommending to &qu=
ot;drop when you don&#39;t need it&quot; and we have the need to ask for ve=
ry specific sets @ given points in time [as the use cases describe]).=C2=A0=
</div><div><br></div><div>b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact that O=
RF language does not seem to be an algebra, it&#39;s a program and you can =
only build a closure of procedural programs by running them normally (not g=
ood to restrict sets you process). In less abstract terms a refresh with fi=
lters that are OR&#39;ed and AND&#39;ed (first order logic transitive closu=
re) determines the cone you need to walk on the RIB very easily (people imp=
lementing heavy-duty BGP will know precisely what that means) whereas any c=
hange to the filter will cause a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case of =
arbitrary mix of accepts and rejects) without a lot of possibly hard logic =
to write (I didn&#39;t think fully through it but I think it may be actuall=
y possible to write something delivering closure from a generic ORF filter =
so it&#39;s an interesting discussion). Even if you can build the closure, =
you can only run one at a time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does some c=
razy state-ful query optimization language to do wonders to squeeze multipl=
e queries it needs into a single ORFs it&#39;s doing (SQL query optimizers =
are _really_ complex beasts) while the &quot;you can put a filter on someth=
ing to suppress it on refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the momen=
t you remove it&quot; persists.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For that 2 c=
ases my take =C2=A0is that it&#39;s better to move towards the model propos=
ed by a &quot;filtered refresh&quot; (independently of being co-author) rat=
her than a &#39;pub-sub&#39;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As ultimate, w=
ider angle view of the world.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>BGP will be of=
fered more cycles to run (it already is ) but not in the form of a single f=
aster and faster CPU anymore but in form of multiple cores/machines. A set =
of filtered refreshes can be parallelized fairly easily when requested. A s=
ingle ORF filter being manipulated on/off will as described in a) possibly =
cause huge spurious refreshes and in b) a single threat of execution serial=
izing the synchronization between peers.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I h=
ope that all can be parsed ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Very good dis=
cussion overall no matter which way it goes ...=C2=A0</div><font color=3D"#=
888888"><div><br></div><div>--- tony=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></font></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"el=
ided-text">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.n=
et</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div cla=
ss=3D"elided-text"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Keyur,</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">On the EVPN topic which defines =
BGP protocol extensions without any IDR WG review the more I hear about cas=
es like you bring below (and this is not the first one btw) the more I thin=
k it is really quite badly designed.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justi=
fication to introduce even more questionable knobs in BGP.=C2=A0</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In this specific case just get a=
ll SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF filters and you are done. Case solve=
d :).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">R.</div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 =
PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route=
-type is introduced without a capability.=C2=A0 A PE may have had safi enab=
led but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mappin=
g to a same RT. A transactional filter
 attempts to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One more comment inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:2=
9 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;, idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id=
r@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</span></div><span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Keyur,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The missing part seems to be justification if we really need &quot;transact=
ion based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having permanent ones.=C2=A0</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dra=
ft needs to state it clearly.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really permanent anyw=
ay .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regard=
less what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go=
 with the notion that permanent are sufficient
 the entire aparatus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests=
 in flight goes away :)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in cont=
ext of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified o=
r withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transa=
ctional filters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div><div><div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
r.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (k=
eyupate)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.=C2=A0</div>
<span><span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.=C2=A0</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see some comments in=
line with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer f=
ilter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note=
 that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] I think the attempts =
you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-pre=
fix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] The motivations look =
similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh=
 message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries a=
lready installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] Actually before the o=
ne-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make it a =E2=
=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just=
 to provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jie<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br></div><div class=3D"quoted-text">______________________________________=
_________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div class=3D"quoted-tex=
t"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"ge=
orgia, serif"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million ke=
yboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the=
 Internet, we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"gara=
mond, serif"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.80000019=
07349px"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</fo=
nt></span><br></div></div></div>
</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113fe4408554110538274583--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 09:05:49 -0700
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Robert, in the draft there are enough of first examples, I repeated several
times other ones we were seeing outside the idr room and later and each
time it seems it is being dismissed and discussion goes into abstract
"let's do publish-subscribe because it's better". So I won't repeat all
that again. I suggest we will update the draft with more and more of stuff
we saw and justified talking about it.

You didn't respond to any of the "what to do with type-6 refresh" or "how
will I make one ORF filter update multiple subsets [possibly disjoint] I
need to refresh without getting flooded to death with the AFI/SAFI stuff"
and "how will I implement ORF except a full walk on any change" which
happen to be pretty massive issues if you want decent BGP convergence on
more and more AFI/SAFIs, routes, types & other zoo sneaking upon BGP ...

sorry if I'm a tad acerbic ...

--- tony

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Tony,
>
> You have nicely summarized various discussed this week sub threads
> happening bith on and off the list.
>
> Except .. you did not list the most important .. to enumerate real
> protocol level use cases which would justify this addition.
>
> If we start with the problem (rather then just starting with "when we nee=
d
> subset of routes") then perhaps it will be easy to adopt this work or we =
go
> back and fix protocol encoding which are root cause of the problem you ar=
e
> trying to patch with solutions like selective overlapping route refresh
> messages.
>
> Best,
> R.
>
> On Jul 21, 2016 5:42 PM, "Tony Przygienda" <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Read the "longish" thread by now and between all this "let's do
> filter/let's do pull (refresh)" I try to take a step back to see the fore=
st:
>
> a) To validate Niloo's point: 'f an implementation chooses to drop things
> based on configuration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will
> cause a complete refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go an=
d
> "install filter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2" and after
> requesting type-6  (you can't defer remove-filter-2 step, otherwise you
> won't receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all MACs. Pub-sub
> with a single "filter-list" is simply NOT a good model to request arbitra=
ry
> pieces of routes missing (which is where the world is going, BGP database
> is sharding to the point specs are recommending to "drop when you don't
> need it" and we have the need to ask for very specific sets @ given point=
s
> in time [as the use cases describe]).
>
> b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact that ORF language does not see=
m
> to be an algebra, it's a program and you can only build a closure of
> procedural programs by running them normally (not good to restrict sets y=
ou
> process). In less abstract terms a refresh with filters that are OR'ed an=
d
> AND'ed (first order logic transitive closure) determines the cone you nee=
d
> to walk on the RIB very easily (people implementing heavy-duty BGP will
> know precisely what that means) whereas any change to the filter will cau=
se
> a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case of arbitrary mix of accepts and
> rejects) without a lot of possibly hard logic to write (I didn't think
> fully through it but I think it may be actually possible to write somethi=
ng
> delivering closure from a generic ORF filter so it's an interesting
> discussion). Even if you can build the closure, you can only run one at a
> time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does some crazy state-ful query
> optimization language to do wonders to squeeze multiple queries it needs
> into a single ORFs it's doing (SQL query optimizers are _really_ complex
> beasts) while the "you can put a filter on something to suppress it on
> refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the moment you remove it"
> persists.
>
> For that 2 cases my take  is that it's better to move towards the model
> proposed by a "filtered refresh" (independently of being co-author) rathe=
r
> than a 'pub-sub'.
>
> As ultimate, wider angle view of the world.
>
> BGP will be offered more cycles to run (it already is ) but not in the
> form of a single faster and faster CPU anymore but in form of multiple
> cores/machines. A set of filtered refreshes can be parallelized fairly
> easily when requested. A single ORF filter being manipulated on/off will =
as
> described in a) possibly cause huge spurious refreshes and in b) a single
> threat of execution serializing the synchronization between peers.
>
> I hope that all can be parsed ...
>
> Very good discussion overall no matter which way it goes ...
>
> --- tony
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Keyur,
>>
>> On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions without any IDR
>> WG review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (and this is =
not
>> the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly designed.
>>
>> And such bad protocol extensions should not be a justification to
>> introduce even more questionable knobs in BGP.
>>
>> In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF
>> filters and you are done. Case solved :).
>>
>> Best,
>> R.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
>> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Robert,
>>>
>>> One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new
>>> route-type is introduced without a capability.  A PE may have had safi
>>> enabled but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) al=
l
>>> mapping to a same RT. A transactional filter attempts to solve it.
>>>
>>> We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.
>>>
>>> One more comment inlined #Keyur
>>>
>>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:29 PM
>>> To: Keyur Patel <keyupate@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-option=
s-00.txt
>>>
>>> Hi Keyur,
>>>
>>> The missing part seems to be justification if we really need
>>> "transaction based filters" as opposed to simply having permanent ones.
>>>
>>> What real problem "transaction based filters" solve ? IMO the draft
>>> needs to state it clearly.
>>>
>>> The other point is that "permanent" are not really permanent anyway ..
>>> they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regardle=
ss
>>> what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go =
with
>>> the notion that permanent are sufficient the entire aparatus allowing y=
ou
>>> to have concurrent route refresh requests in flight goes away :)
>>>
>>> #Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in
>>> context of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be
>>> modified or withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate =
it
>>> from transactional filters.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Keyur
>>>
>>> Thx,
>>> r.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <
>>> keyupate@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert, Dongjie,
>>>>
>>>> Comments inlined #Keyur
>>>>
>>>> From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:52 PM
>>>> To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-optio=
ns-00.txt
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jie,
>>>>
>>>> To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route
>>>> Type* ORF to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.
>>>>
>>>> #Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the
>>>> transaction based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent fi=
lters
>>>> and hence chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.
>>>>
>>>> I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free
>>>> to INSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
>>>>
>>>> #Keyur: Ack.
>>>>
>>>> Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.
>>>>
>>>> #Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be
>>>> for selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multip=
le
>>>> concurrent selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much a=
long
>>>> the lines of the solution suggested in the draft.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Keyur
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Many thx,
>>>> R.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com=
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please see some comments inline with [Jie]:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tony
>>>>> Przygienda
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
>>>>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; idr wg
>>>>> *Subject:* [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-opti=
ons-00.txt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Resending ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: *Tony Przygienda* <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-opti=
ons-00.txt
>>>>> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>>> Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tony,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Robert, thanks for chiming in. Good questions. I speak here for
>>>>> myself, other authors of the draft may have differing opinions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer
>>>>> filter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC=
 ?
>>>>> Note that ORF also includes recent extension as described in RFC7543 =
-
>>>>> would all of those be always a logical AND towards a peer which pushe=
d
>>>>> those ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We didn't discuss that one through but the only logical conclusion fo=
r
>>>>> me is that the ORF/CP-ORF installed are respected (i.e. it's an impli=
cit
>>>>> AND). I see ORF as statefull, remote-pushed policy on the peer that i=
s not
>>>>> being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attem=
pts @
>>>>> non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Jie] I think the attempts you mentioned here are the one-time ORF
>>>>> drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-prefix-orf  and
>>>>> draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf. After several revisions, t=
hese
>>>>> drafts got expired due to lack of requirements at that time. If peopl=
e
>>>>> found some new use cases of these kinds of mechanisms, the authors wo=
uld be
>>>>> happy to bring them back to discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot
>>>>> refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on
>>>>> configuration changes, peer having dropped received routes based on s=
pecs
>>>>> (A-D), in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF o=
n a
>>>>> peer, refresh and remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that m=
ay
>>>>> interfere on top with normal update process going on and needs to be =
done
>>>>> one-by-one (since you have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR pair) unless =
one is
>>>>> very smart about combining ORF possibly & playing with the
>>>>> DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by RTC =
and
>>>>> RTC is supported & one is willing to configure RTs for each subset of
>>>>> routes that may need refreshing, RT will be doing the same job just f=
ine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Jie] The motivations look similar to what we described for the
>>>>> one-time ORF drafts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly monotonic so there is never a
>>>>> misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Observe that the draft doe=
s NOT
>>>>> mandate that a request MUST be followed by according BoRR, only that =
BoRRs
>>>>> must follow same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monoton=
ic).
>>>>> However, we should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be=
 mixed
>>>>> in the same type #3 message but it's either one or the other (and any=
thing
>>>>> else is error). This will allow ORF operations like today + benefit o=
f the
>>>>> Refresh ID#  on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE can go on @ the same time a=
s
>>>>> another request with higher Refresh ID# (de facto we allow multiple
>>>>> parallel refreshes as you see).  In case of DEFER there will be simpl=
y no
>>>>> BoRR for it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh
>>>>> message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entr=
ies
>>>>> already installed in the past would he get just the subset of routes
>>>>> against all ORF entries ? In other words I think the draft should sta=
te
>>>>> that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs or REMOVE actions - don't=
 you
>>>>> think ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of  "permanent filter" on the peer while th=
e
>>>>> intent of this draft is to have bunch of "small refreshes" going on @=
 same
>>>>> time possibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementatio=
n
>>>>> while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify
>>>>> internal logic ;-).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Discussion came up. Feeling was it's an immediate encroach on RT
>>>>> territory. I argued for it ;-)  Ultimately, taking a more relaxed vie=
w, we
>>>>> chose to wait and see what the response is and most pressing use case=
s
>>>>> people bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the
>>>>> options supported, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs=
 ;-)
>>>>>  As in "most sincere form of flattery" and such ... ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [Jie] Actually before the one-time ORF drafts were submitted, we
>>>>> initially considered to make it a =E2=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=
=80=9D mechanism. Then
>>>>> we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y
>>>>> defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided t=
o
>>>>> define this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.  J=
ust to provide some
>>>>> background information since you also plan to reuse the format of the
>>>>> existing ORF types.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- tony
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards co=
uld
>>>>> produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Interne=
t, we
>>>>> know that is not true.*
>>>>>
>>>>> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Idr mailing list
>> Idr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could =
produce
> the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
> that is not true.*
> =E2=80=94Robert Wilensky
>
>
>


--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--001a1135018c3200fb0538278021
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Robert, in the draft there are enough of first examples, I=
 repeated several times other ones we were seeing outside the idr room and =
later and each time it seems it is being dismissed and discussion goes into=
 abstract &quot;let&#39;s do publish-subscribe because it&#39;s better&quot=
;. So I won&#39;t repeat all that again. I suggest we will update the draft=
 with more and more of stuff we saw and justified talking about it.=C2=A0<d=
iv><br></div><div>You didn&#39;t respond to any of the &quot;what to do wit=
h type-6 refresh&quot; or &quot;how will I make one ORF filter update multi=
ple subsets [possibly disjoint] I need to refresh without getting flooded t=
o death with the AFI/SAFI stuff&quot; and &quot;how will I implement ORF ex=
cept a full walk on any change&quot; which happen to be pretty massive issu=
es if you want decent BGP convergence on more and more AFI/SAFIs, routes, t=
ypes &amp; other zoo sneaking upon BGP ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>s=
orry if I&#39;m a tad acerbic ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>--- tony=
=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">You have nicely summarized various discussed this week sub t=
hreads happening bith on and off the list.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Except .. you did not list the most important .. to enumerat=
e real protocol level use cases which would justify this addition.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If we start with the problem (rather then just starting with=
 &quot;when we need subset of routes&quot;) then perhaps it will be easy to=
 adopt this work or we go back and fix protocol encoding which are root cau=
se of the problem you are trying to patch with solutions like selective ove=
rlapping route refresh messages.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Best,<br>
R.</p><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 21, 2016 5=
:42 PM, &quot;Tony Przygienda&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribu=
tion"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Read the &quot;longish&quot; thread by now =
and between all this &quot;let&#39;s do filter/let&#39;s do pull (refresh)&=
quot; I try to take a step back to see the forest:<div><br></div><div>a) To=
 validate Niloo&#39;s point: &#39;f an implementation chooses to drop thing=
s based on configuration/policy (multicast EVPN routes) extending ORF will =
cause a complete refresh of EVPN (including type-2 MACs) unless you go and =
&quot;install filter type-2, then refresh, then remove-filter-2&quot; and a=
fter requesting type-6 =C2=A0(you can&#39;t defer remove-filter-2 step, oth=
erwise you won&#39;t receive type-2 updates anymore!) floods you with all M=
ACs. Pub-sub with a single &quot;filter-list&quot; is simply NOT a good mod=
el to request arbitrary pieces of routes missing (which is where the world =
is going, BGP database is sharding to the point specs are recommending to &=
quot;drop when you don&#39;t need it&quot; and we have the need to ask for =
very specific sets @ given points in time [as the use cases describe]).=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>b) A much _bigger_ problem IMO is the fact tha=
t ORF language does not seem to be an algebra, it&#39;s a program and you c=
an only build a closure of procedural programs by running them normally (no=
t good to restrict sets you process). In less abstract terms a refresh with=
 filters that are OR&#39;ed and AND&#39;ed (first order logic transitive cl=
osure) determines the cone you need to walk on the RIB very easily (people =
implementing heavy-duty BGP will know precisely what that means) whereas an=
y change to the filter will cause a full walk on the RIB possibly (in case =
of arbitrary mix of accepts and rejects) without a lot of possibly hard log=
ic to write (I didn&#39;t think fully through it but I think it may be actu=
ally possible to write something delivering closure from a generic ORF filt=
er so it&#39;s an interesting discussion). Even if you can build the closur=
e, you can only run one at a time (one ORF filter) unless the peer does som=
e crazy state-ful query optimization language to do wonders to squeeze mult=
iple queries it needs into a single ORFs it&#39;s doing (SQL query optimize=
rs are _really_ complex beasts) while the &quot;you can put a filter on som=
ething to suppress it on refresh but you can hammered with it anyway the mo=
ment you remove it&quot; persists.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For that =
2 cases my take =C2=A0is that it&#39;s better to move towards the model pro=
posed by a &quot;filtered refresh&quot; (independently of being co-author) =
rather than a &#39;pub-sub&#39;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As ultimate=
, wider angle view of the world.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>BGP will be=
 offered more cycles to run (it already is ) but not in the form of a singl=
e faster and faster CPU anymore but in form of multiple cores/machines. A s=
et of filtered refreshes can be parallelized fairly easily when requested. =
A single ORF filter being manipulated on/off will as described in a) possib=
ly cause huge spurious refreshes and in b) a single threat of execution ser=
ializing the synchronization between peers.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
I hope that all can be parsed ...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Very good =
discussion overall no matter which way it goes ...=C2=A0</div><font color=
=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>--- tony=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></font>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Wed=
, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">Hi Keyur,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">On the EVPN topic which defines BGP protocol extensions without any IDR W=
G review the more I hear about cases like you bring below (and this is not =
the first one btw) the more I think it is really quite badly designed.=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">And such bad proto=
col extensions should not be a justification to introduce even more questio=
nable knobs in BGP.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll">In this specific case just get all SAFI refreshed modulo to RTC or ORF =
filters and you are done. Case solved :).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Best,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Keyur Patel (keyupate) <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Hi Robert,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One interesting use case is with EVPN address family where a new route=
-type is introduced without a capability.=C2=A0 A PE may have had safi enab=
led but not have accepted its route-type (or set of route-types) all mappin=
g to a same RT. A transactional filter
 attempts to solve it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We can clarify in the next revision of the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One more comment inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 3:2=
9 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>Keyur Patel &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;, idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">id=
r@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</span></div><span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Keyur,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The missing part seems to be justification if we really need &quot;transact=
ion based filters&quot; as opposed to simply having permanent ones.=C2=A0</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
What real problem &quot;transaction based filters&quot; solve ? IMO the dra=
ft needs to state it clearly.=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The other point is that &quot;permanent&quot; are not really permanent anyw=
ay .. they are installed from update to withdraw of a given filter - regard=
less what filtering mechanism you choose (ORF, RTC, XYZ ...). And if you go=
 with the notion that permanent are sufficient
 the entire aparatus allowing you to have concurrent route refresh requests=
 in flight goes away :)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: Ack your right. My reference to a permanent filter was in cont=
ext of a session life time and I agree with you that it could be modified o=
r withdrawn at any given time. I was trying to differentiate it from transa=
ctional filters.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur</div><div><div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
r.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:18 AM, Keyur Patel (k=
eyupate)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:keyupate@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">keyupate@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>Robert, Dongjie,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Comments inlined #Keyur</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:5=
2 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;Dongjie (Jimmy)&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:id=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot reques=
t in IDR to present
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh=
-options-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Hi Jie,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
To me what is perhaps missing is just a new draft to define *Route Type* OR=
F to address some of those EVPN new NLRI encodings.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>#Keyur: ORFs are permanent filters. We wanted to decouple the transact=
ion based filters (one time per refresh) from the permanent filters and hen=
ce chose to modify refresh message as opposed to an ORF.=C2=A0</div>
<span><span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
I am not that much convinced if one time ORF is needed as you are free to I=
NSTALL and REMOVE ORF effectively producing one time behavior.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: Ack.=C2=A0</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Also existing Enhanced Route Refresh should work with ORF too.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>#Keyur: There are modifications needed if the refresh is going to be f=
or selective prefixes only. Furthermore, if we want to support multiple con=
current selective refreshes then the changes needed are very much along the=
 lines of the solution suggested
 in the draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Keyur=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
Many thx,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Tony,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please see some comments in=
line with [Jie]:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> Idr [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony Przygienda<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; idr wg<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https:=
//www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Resending ...=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b>Tony Przygienda</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">tonysietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Slot request in IDR to present <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt" target=
=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00=
.txt</a><br>
To: Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 1:47 PM=
, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Hi Tony,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hey Robert, thanks for chiming =
in. Good questions. I speak here for myself, other authors of the draft may=
 have differing opinions.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Can you clarify what is the expected behaviour as far as per peer f=
ilter-list when you negotiate both Refresh with options, ORF and RTC ? Note=
 that ORF also includes recent extension
 as described in RFC7543 - would all of those be always a logical AND towar=
ds a peer which pushed those ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">We didn&#39;t discuss that one =
through but the only logical conclusion for me is that the ORF/CP-ORF insta=
lled are respected (i.e. it&#39;s an implicit AND). I see ORF as statefull,=
 remote-pushed policy on the peer that is not
 being flipped around all the time (albeit AFAIR there were some attempts @=
 non-persistent, one shot ORF but that ended up expiring?)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] I think the attempts =
you mentioned here are the one-time ORF drafts: draft-zeng-idr-one-time-pre=
fix-orf =C2=A0and draft-dong-idr-one-time-ext-community-orf.
 After several revisions, these drafts got expired due to lack of requireme=
nts at that time. If people found some new use cases of these kinds of mech=
anisms, the authors would be happy to bring them back to discussion.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The motivation for this work we=
re scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bun=
ch of those based on configuration changes, peer having dropped received ro=
utes based on specs (A-D), in policy
 changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. Putting ORF on a peer, refresh and =
remove ORFs is significantly heavier process that may interfere on top with=
 normal update process going on and needs to be done one-by-one (since you =
have to wait for single BoRR/EoRR
 pair) unless one is very smart about combining ORF possibly &amp; playing =
with the DEFER/IMMEDIATEs. As we indicated, if the AFI/SAFI is covered by R=
TC and RTC is supported &amp; one is willing to configure RTs for each subs=
et of routes that may need refreshing, RT
 will be doing the same job just fine.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] The motivations look =
similar to what we described for the one-time ORF drafts.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<span>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">Would you always carry ORF with separate Refresh_ID value ?=C2=A0<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Yes, Refresh-ID# is strictly mo=
notonic so there is never a misunderstanding WHAT the BoRR belongs to. Obse=
rve that the draft does NOT mandate that a request MUST be followed by acco=
rding BoRR, only that BoRRs must follow
 same sequence as requests (i.e. are also strictly monotonic). However, we =
should probably specify that options _and_ ORF can NOT be mixed in the same=
 type #3 message but it&#39;s either one or the other (and anything else is=
 error). This will allow ORF operations
 like today + benefit of the Refresh ID# =C2=A0on the BoRR so the IMMEDIATE=
 can go on @ the same time as another request with higher Refresh ID# (de f=
acto we allow multiple parallel refreshes as you see).=C2=A0 In case of DEF=
ER there will be simply no BoRR for it.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">If one requests full Adj_RIB_Out in the new model and sends refresh=
 message with new refresh_id and no options however there are ORF entries a=
lready installed in the past would
 he get just the subset of routes against all ORF entries ? In other words =
I think the draft should state that Refresh_IDs have no impact to ORF ADDs =
or REMOVE actions - don&#39;t you think ?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I agree. Yes, ORF is kind of =
=C2=A0&quot;permanent filter&quot; on the peer while the intent of this dra=
ft is to have bunch of &quot;small refreshes&quot; going on @ same time pos=
sibly (if you request the refreshes from a good implementation
 while low-end implementations may serialize the requests to simplify inter=
nal logic ;-).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans=
-serif">As far as current types why not add regular/extended community ?<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</span>
<div><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Discussion came up. Feeling was=
 it&#39;s an immediate encroach on RT territory. I argued for it ;-) =C2=A0=
Ultimately, taking a more relaxed view, we chose to wait and see what the r=
esponse is and most pressing use cases people
 bring to it and then we start to define bits and bytes of the options supp=
orted, possibly borrowing to an extent from the ORF specs ;-) =C2=A0As in &=
quot;most sincere form of flattery&quot; and such ... ;-)=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Jie] Actually before the o=
ne-time ORF drafts were submitted, we initially considered to make it a =E2=
=80=9Cselective route refresh=E2=80=9D mechanism.
 Then we realized that the filters will be quite similar to the ones alread=
y defined for ORF. In order to reuse the ORF filters, we then decided to de=
fine this mechanism as new =E2=80=9Cone-time=E2=80=9D ORF types.=C2=A0 Just=
 to provide some background information since you also
 plan to reuse the format of the existing ORF types. <u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Best regards,<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Jie<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">-- tony=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:Georgia,serif">We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a mil=
lion keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks=
 to the Internet, we know that is not true.</span></i><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-f=
amily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
<br></div><div>_______________________________________________<br>
Idr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><div><br></div>-- <=
br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, serif"><i>We=E2=
=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce =
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know tha=
t is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif"><br></fon=
t></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D=
"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><br></div></=
div></div>
</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"ge=
orgia, serif"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million ke=
yboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the=
 Internet, we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"gara=
mond, serif"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.80000019=
07349px"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</fo=
nt></span><br></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a1135018c3200fb0538278021--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Tony,

Sorry to be a bit stubborn here but I have not seen any valid reason for
this work.

Yes you have listed bunch if reasons in the original reply but non of those
apply.

Quoted below from your mail all below reasons require permanent filter not
one time as you must not only get the NLRI once .. you MUST also get all
updates to it when something changes supposedly also in subset way -
otherwise you get all SAFI (all MACs which is what you are trying to avoid
in the first place).

That is critical which you seems to be missing.

The debug thing is not sufficient justification.

Moreover as you confirm this work is not compatible with RTC and as you
confirmed you will not get anything over RTC filter in place. So to use one
time refresh RTC needs to be effectively disabled.

Your reasons:

"The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is
needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes,
peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in policy
changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. "

Thx,
R.

--001a114034305f9a0b053827babd
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Sorry to be a bit stubborn here but I have not seen any vali=
d reason for this work.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Yes you have listed bunch if reasons in the original reply b=
ut non of those apply.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Quoted below from your mail all below reasons require perman=
ent filter not one time as you must not only get the NLRI once .. you MUST =
also get all updates to it when something changes supposedly also in subset=
 way - otherwise you get all SAFI (all MACs which is what you are trying to=
 avoid in the first place).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That is critical which you seems to be missing.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The debug thing is not sufficient justification.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Moreover as you confirm this work is not compatible with RTC=
 and as you confirmed you will not get anything over RTC filter in place. S=
o to use one time refresh RTC needs to be effectively disabled.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Your reasons:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&quot;The motivation for this work were scenarios where a si=
ngle-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on co=
nfiguration changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-=
D), in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. &quot;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Thx,<br>
R.</p>

--001a114034305f9a0b053827babd--


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 01:52:21 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Robert, fine, agreed to disagree. We see over next rev of the draft ...

We will extend section 1.1. further and frankly, I think it's sufficient
today (otherwise we wouldn't bother wasting our time writing/figuring that
out).

RD we need wildcard semantics, beside that I agree that there isn't
necessary enough justification for RD otherwise without assuming further
semantics overload of RDs (bad thing). So maybe not allowing and RD
options/filter and saying "RD is implied wildcard" is good enough. My
feeling tells me it's not but it can be added later.

I cannot parse the RTC comment you're making really. I suggest to
distinguish very tightly between "querying", "registering" and "filtering".

RTC is a intermixed "registration/filtering" mechanism, refresh is a
"querying" mechanism. I think we'll add RTs to the filters for the option
refresh and with that you can either "register via/filter RTCs" _or_
specifically request refresh for an RTC (which will be filtered by existing
RTCs since RTC is the "overall filtering").

registering is good if you want full refresh of something beside initial
open but the filters must be very orthogonal to do it efficiently and
decoupled from each other (transactional) while RTC is simply a accept/deny
language which is hard to closure compute (sorry, can't save the linear
programing vs. transitive closure algebra distinction here and if it's not
clear it will become painfully clear in implementation only).

filtering is the NOT of registering really and RTC is a ball-of-hair where
the deny are really "NOTs" and possibly filters rather then registers.
While empty RTC is a "register all" implicitly.

Refresh is querying. Something pretty different from "register". Semantics
is "I may have registered (implicitly) but I may have filtered on my side
for some reason and now I need the information again". Yes, one can play
great games with filtering/registering to emulate querying as one can
surely use screwdrivers to open tin cans. A very orthogonal algebra of
independent RTC filters would have been possibly equivalent to the route
refresh options but alas between the accept/reject/defer/immediate I would
always chose to have a clean "orthogonal filter transactional query"
architecture here ... (sorry, I speak databas'ish here since this is all
really a big partitioned/distributed/loosely synchronized database problem
and has nothing to do really with BGP carrying the bits).

Your answers to "on RTC change you'll get flooded with all the stuff again"
and "how do I get type-6 only without causing subsequent flooding when I
unwind the RTC filter" are still surepitiously missing.

If your  point "you never _query_ in BGP, we SHALL only register" then
route-refresh was the battle to be fought, this particular Rubicon has been
crossed long time ago as you know (and it took good many years until a
similar discussion I had a _looong_ time ago about "you need Begin
Transaction/End Transaction" and was ignored caused enough real pain to
lead to Extended Route Refresh).

no, to nastepnej wersi ;-) ;-)

--- tony

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Tony,
>
> Sorry to be a bit stubborn here but I have not seen any valid reason for
> this work.
>
> Yes you have listed bunch if reasons in the original reply but non of
> those apply.
>
> Quoted below from your mail all below reasons require permanent filter no=
t
> one time as you must not only get the NLRI once .. you MUST also get all
> updates to it when something changes supposedly also in subset way -
> otherwise you get all SAFI (all MACs which is what you are trying to avoi=
d
> in the first place).
>
> That is critical which you seems to be missing.
>
> The debug thing is not sufficient justification.
>
> Moreover as you confirm this work is not compatible with RTC and as you
> confirmed you will not get anything over RTC filter in place. So to use o=
ne
> time refresh RTC needs to be effectively disabled.
>
> Your reasons:
>
> "The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh
> is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
> changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-D), in
> policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. "
>
> Thx,
> R.
>



--=20
*We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could pr=
oduce
the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
that is not true.*
=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky

--94eb2c049652dae1410538358f03
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Robert, fine, agreed to disagree. We see over next rev of =
the draft ...=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>We will extend section 1.1. further =
and frankly, I think it&#39;s sufficient today (otherwise we wouldn&#39;t b=
other wasting our time writing/figuring that out).=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>RD we need wildcard semantics, beside that I agree that there isn&#3=
9;t necessary enough justification for RD otherwise without assuming furthe=
r semantics overload of RDs (bad thing). So maybe not allowing and RD optio=
ns/filter and saying &quot;RD is implied wildcard&quot; is good enough. My =
feeling tells me it&#39;s not but it can be added later.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I cannot parse the RTC comment you&#39;re making really. I sug=
gest to distinguish very tightly between &quot;querying&quot;, &quot;regist=
ering&quot; and &quot;filtering&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>RTC is a in=
termixed &quot;registration/filtering&quot; mechanism, refresh is a &quot;q=
uerying&quot; mechanism. I think we&#39;ll add RTs to the filters for the o=
ption refresh and with that you can either &quot;register via/filter RTCs&q=
uot; _or_ specifically request refresh for an RTC (which will be filtered b=
y existing RTCs since RTC is the &quot;overall filtering&quot;).=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>registering is good if you want full refresh of someth=
ing beside initial open but the filters must be very orthogonal to do it ef=
ficiently and decoupled from each other (transactional) while RTC is simply=
 a accept/deny language which is hard to closure compute (sorry, can&#39;t =
save the linear programing vs. transitive closure algebra distinction here =
and if it&#39;s not clear it will become painfully clear in implementation =
only).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>filtering is the NOT of registering r=
eally and RTC is a ball-of-hair where the deny are really &quot;NOTs&quot; =
and possibly filters rather then registers. While empty RTC is a &quot;regi=
ster all&quot; implicitly.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Refresh is queryi=
ng. Something pretty different from &quot;register&quot;. Semantics is &quo=
t;I may have registered (implicitly) but I may have filtered on my side for=
 some reason and now I need the information again&quot;. Yes, one can play =
great games with filtering/registering to emulate querying as one can surel=
y use screwdrivers to open tin cans. A very orthogonal algebra of independe=
nt RTC filters would have been possibly equivalent to the route refresh opt=
ions but alas between the accept/reject/defer/immediate I would always chos=
e to have a clean &quot;orthogonal filter transactional query&quot; archite=
cture here ... (sorry, I speak databas&#39;ish here since this is all reall=
y a big partitioned/distributed/loosely synchronized database problem and h=
as nothing to do really with BGP carrying the bits).=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
div><div>Your answers to &quot;on RTC change you&#39;ll get flooded with al=
l the stuff again&quot; and &quot;how do I get type-6 only without causing =
subsequent flooding when I unwind the RTC filter&quot; are still surepitiou=
sly missing.</div><div><br></div><div>If your =C2=A0point &quot;you never _=
query_ in BGP, we SHALL only register&quot; then route-refresh was the batt=
le to be fought, this particular Rubicon has been crossed long time ago as =
you know (and it took good many years until a similar discussion I had a _l=
ooong_ time ago about &quot;you need Begin Transaction/End Transaction&quot=
; and was ignored caused enough real pain to lead to Extended Route Refresh=
).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>no, to nastepnej wersi ;-) ;-)=C2=A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>--- tony=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Robert Raszu=
k <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><p dir=3D"ltr">Tony,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Sorry to be a bit stubborn here but I have not seen any vali=
d reason for this work.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Yes you have listed bunch if reasons in the original reply b=
ut non of those apply.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Quoted below from your mail all below reasons require perman=
ent filter not one time as you must not only get the NLRI once .. you MUST =
also get all updates to it when something changes supposedly also in subset=
 way - otherwise you get all SAFI (all MACs which is what you are trying to=
 avoid in the first place).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That is critical which you seems to be missing.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The debug thing is not sufficient justification.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Moreover as you confirm this work is not compatible with RTC=
 and as you confirmed you will not get anything over RTC filter in place. S=
o to use one time refresh RTC needs to be effectively disabled.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Your reasons:</p><span class=3D"">
<p dir=3D"ltr">&quot;The motivation for this work were scenarios where a si=
ngle-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on co=
nfiguration changes, peer having dropped received routes based on specs (A-=
D), in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on. &quot;</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">Thx,<br>
R.</p>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><font face=3D"georgia, seri=
f"><i>We=E2=80=99ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards cou=
ld produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, =
we know that is not true.</i></font></span><i><font face=3D"garamond, serif=
"><br></font></i></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px"><f=
ont face=3D"times new roman, serif">=E2=80=94Robert Wilensky</font></span><=
br></div></div></div>
</div>

--94eb2c049652dae1410538358f03--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 16:22:08 +0200
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To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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--001a113f42e6a5f01c053862649a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Dear Antoni,

The point here is not about the question if query in BGP is good or bad or
how easy or difficult it is to implement.

The points to discuss are following:

#1 What parameters are used to "query" ?

#2 How does defined "query" work with existing BGP protocol and extensions ?

#3 What protocol state machine change triggers "query" action ?

- - -

Ad 1 -

Cool that we have already accomplished consensus to get rid of RD query. If
you do not specify anything the automatic assumptions would be *ANY* RD
anyway if you query by anything other then NLRI prefix. Query by NLRI is
questionable too (see below Ad 3).

Now let's talk about (in)famous EVPN route types you keep bringing as query
parameter. Please observe that RFC7432 does not define BGP capability per
route type and only negotiates 25/70 implicitly indicating support of all
route types. Moreover RFC7432 is very clear that to accomplish filtering of
routes on the sender side use of RTC is recommended.


Ad 2 -

Assume operator is using RTC so list of RT filters is populated by the peer
outbound towards querying bgp speaker. Now issuing query for anything needs
to be evaluated against already supported Enhanced Route Refresh (RFC7313)
which btw you are also obsoleting here where you get full filtered by RTC
list of interesting NLRIs for specific AFI/SAFI.

On the topic of obsoleting RFC2918 I must say that I hope this is just a
huge oversight ... Your current draft says:

"When the Route Refresh Options Capability has been negotiated by both
sides of a BGP session, both peers MUST use message types 3, 4 and 5."

And message type 3 clearly states that I must have at least one refresh
option ... quote from the field of the msg: "One or more Route Refresh
Options"

That means that I no longer can ask for refresh of the entire AFI/SAFI -
this is pretty bad.


Ad 3 -

Now the crux of all of this ...

Please enumerate on the list or in the draft what exact protocol state
machine transitions will result in automated query for subset of given
AFI/SAFI with and without prior use of RTC and ORF filters.

In other words I do not buy general justifications explained before, quote:

* "now I need the information again"

* " The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh
is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on configuration
changes,

--> You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh

" in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on."

--> You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh

- - - - - -

Conclusion:

Asking for subset of AFI/SAFI routes based on specific query does not in
any way allows to assure that you will get full set of routes which are
actually needed for correct operation.

BGP standardized use of Route Target Ext Community to filter routes both on
inbound as well as optimize it also outbound. If you modify RT import
policy say you add one RT I agree that asking for just that one RT may be
much better - but here RTC is exactly what comes as solution as generating
one update in SAFI 132 will result in getting such delta of routes.

It also needs to be stated that there is no overhead to add few RTs (one
per NLRI type) for those new address families which bring the concept of
NLRI types (EVPN, BGP-LS etc ...) hence the objectives of this work can be
easily achieved today with existing specifications.

Best regards,
Robert.

--001a113f42e6a5f01c053862649a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dear Antoni,</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">The point here is not about the question if quer=
y in BGP is good or bad or how easy or difficult it is to implement.</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The points to discuss are fo=
llowing:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">#1 What=
 parameters are used to &quot;query&quot; ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small">#2 How does defined &quot;query&quot; work with=
 existing BGP protocol and extensions ?<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small">#3 What protocol state machine change triggers &quot;=
query&quot; action ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">-=
 - -=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Ad 1 -=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cool that we have =
already accomplished consensus to get rid of RD query. If you do not specif=
y anything the automatic assumptions would be *ANY* RD anyway if you query =
by anything other then NLRI prefix. Query by NLRI is questionable too (see =
below Ad 3).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now=
 let&#39;s talk about (in)famous EVPN route types you keep bringing as quer=
y parameter. Please observe that RFC7432 does not define BGP capability per=
 route type and only negotiates 25/70 implicitly indicating support of all =
route types. Moreover RFC7432 is very clear that to accomplish filtering of=
 routes on the sender side use of RTC is recommended.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Ad 2 -=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Assume operator=
 is using RTC so list of RT filters is populated by the peer outbound towar=
ds querying bgp speaker. Now issuing query for anything needs to be evaluat=
ed against already supported Enhanced Route Refresh (RFC7313) which btw you=
 are also obsoleting here where you get full filtered by RTC list of intere=
sting NLRIs for specific AFI/SAFI.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">On the topic of obsoleting RFC2918 I must say that I hop=
e this is just a huge oversight ... Your current draft says:=C2=A0</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">&quot;When the Route Refresh O=
ptions Capability has been negotiated by both</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">sides of a BGP sessio=
n, both peers MUST use message types 3, 4 and 5.&quot;</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"=
>And message type 3 clearly states that I must have at least one refresh op=
tion ... quote from the field of the msg: &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">One or more Route Re=
fresh Options&quot;=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=
That means that I no longer can ask for refresh of the entire AFI/SAFI - th=
is is pretty bad.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=
<br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;fon=
t-family:arial,sans-serif">Ad 3 -=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:aria=
l,sans-serif">Now the crux of all of this ...=C2=A0</span></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">=
<br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;fon=
t-family:arial,sans-serif">Please enumerate on the list or in the draft wha=
t exact protocol state machine transitions will result in automated query f=
or subset of given AFI/SAFI with and without prior use of RTC and ORF filte=
rs.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333p=
x;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">In other words I=
 do not buy general justifications explained before,=C2=A0</span><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">quo=
te:=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333p=
x;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">* &quot;</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">now I need the=
 information again&quot;=C2=A0</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">* &quot;=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">The motivation fo=
r this work were scenarios where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually =
concurrent bunch of those based on configuration changes,=C2=A0</span></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></spa=
n></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">--=
&gt; You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh</span></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">&quot; in policy cha=
nges, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:12.8px">--&gt; You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh</span><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- - - - - -=C2=A0</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Conclusion: =C2=A0</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Asking for subset of AFI/S=
AFI routes based on specific query does not in any way allows to assure tha=
t you will get full set of routes which are actually needed for correct ope=
ration.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">BGP stan=
dardized use of Route Target Ext Community to filter routes both on inbound=
 as well as optimize it also outbound. If you modify RT import policy say y=
ou add one RT I agree that asking for just that one RT may be much better -=
 but here RTC is exactly what comes as solution as generating one update in=
 SAFI 132 will result in getting such delta of routes.=C2=A0</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">It also needs to be stated that ther=
e is no overhead to add few RTs (one per NLRI type) for those new address f=
amilies which bring the concept of NLRI types (EVPN, BGP-LS etc ...) hence =
the objectives of this work can be easily achieved today with existing spec=
ifications.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best=
 regards,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
></div>

--001a113f42e6a5f01c053862649a--


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Subject: [Idr] Minutes of IETF-96 IDR posted
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Hi Everyone,

Minutes are now available at =
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-idr. Please send =
any corrections or comments to the list. Thanks to those who pitched in =
to take the notes.

--John=


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Subject: [Idr] Minutes of IETF-96 SPRING posted
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Hi Everyone,

Minutes are now available at =
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-spring. Please =
send any corrections or comments to the list. Thanks to Wim for the =
notes!

--John=


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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 23:18:59 +0200
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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inline

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Dear Antoni,
>
> The point here is not about the question if query in BGP is good or bad or
> how easy or difficult it is to implement.
>
> The points to discuss are following:
>
> #1 What parameters are used to "query" ?
>
> #2 How does defined "query" work with existing BGP protocol and extensions
> ?
>
> #3 What protocol state machine change triggers "query" action ?
>
> - - -
>
> Ad 1 -
>
> Cool that we have already accomplished consensus to get rid of RD query.
> If you do not specify anything the automatic assumptions would be *ANY* RD
> anyway if you query by anything other then NLRI prefix. Query by NLRI is
> questionable too (see below Ad 3).
>
> Now let's talk about (in)famous EVPN route types you keep bringing as
> query parameter. Please observe that RFC7432 does not define BGP capability
> per route type and only negotiates 25/70 implicitly indicating support of
> all route types. Moreover RFC7432 is very clear that to accomplish
> filtering of routes on the sender side use of RTC is recommended.
>
>
I think I admitted that getting rid of RD query is reasonable (as long we
understand that any other query means "any RD")

If you think asking for a new route-type in EVPN via AFI/SAFI refresh and
being swamped with all MAC updates is a reasonable deployment option then
we simply disagree and the operational world will tell us what is
reasonable.


>
> Ad 2 -
>
> Assume operator is using RTC so list of RT filters is populated by the
> peer outbound towards querying bgp speaker. Now issuing query for anything
> needs to be evaluated against already supported Enhanced Route Refresh
> (RFC7313) which btw you are also obsoleting here where you get full
> filtered by RTC list of interesting NLRIs for specific AFI/SAFI.
>
> On the topic of obsoleting RFC2918 I must say that I hope this is just a
> huge oversight ... Your current draft says:
>
> "When the Route Refresh Options Capability has been negotiated by both
> sides of a BGP session, both peers MUST use message types 3, 4 and 5."
>
> And message type 3 clearly states that I must have at least one refresh
> option ... quote from the field of the msg: "One or more Route Refresh
> Options"
>
> That means that I no longer can ask for refresh of the entire AFI/SAFI -
> this is pretty bad.
>

Absolutely valid, albeit subtle point. "zero or more route refresh options"
should be specified.

Obsoleting 70 when 74 is present is simplifying things. We can keep mixture
of 70 and 74 but implementation will get pretty hairy when you talk
details. We talked that through with Cisco co-authors @ length and actually
changed from "you can do both in parallel" to "nah, 74 obsoleting 70 is
much better/cleaner/easier".


>
>
> Ad 3 -
>
> Now the crux of all of this ...
>
> Please enumerate on the list or in the draft what exact protocol state
> machine transitions will result in automated query for subset of given
> AFI/SAFI with and without prior use of RTC and ORF filters.
>

section 1.1. in the draft and to be extended


>
> In other words I do not buy general justifications explained before,
> quote:
>
> * "now I need the information again"
>
> * " The motivation for this work were scenarios where a single-shot
> refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of those based on
> configuration changes,
>
> --> You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh
>
> " in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and so on."
>
> --> You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh
>

ok, then as I said, we agree to disagree and then we don't have currently a
really practical solution to the cases mentioned in 1.1 and yes, RTC can be
used for that if you're willing to maintain RTs for all possible sets you
may need to refresh and the draft very explicitly acknowledges that
already. Given you know those sets upfront. If you deploy EVPN today and
new route type gets introduced (type-6) you better go and reconfigure all
your routers in the networks with this type-6-per-EVI=a new RT knowledge to
satisfy the "I need now type-6 routes for the EVIs I configured for
multicast" use case. Quite a lot of configuration there since it's
combinatorial with every parameter.

Extending ORF with new filters will lead due to the accept/reject
non-computable language to full walks of which you can have one in parallel
in ORF and you chose to not answer any of the "and then you'll get flooded
on change of ORF filter anyway" observations which leads overall to an
interesting, partial treatment of the subject.

Frankly, the arguments we are engaged in are becoming repetitive by now, we
should close this discussion and see whether implementation/acceptance by
major vendors given the pressure of deployment cases we listed will lead to
acceptance or the draft will linger ...

--- tony

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<div dir=3D"ltr">inline<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dear =
Antoni,</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size=
:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small">The point here is not about the question if query in BGP is go=
od or bad or how easy or difficult it is to implement.</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The points to d=
iscuss are following:=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">#1 What parameters are used to &quot;query=
&quot; ?=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">#2 How does defined &quot;query&quot; work with existin=
g BGP protocol and extensions ?<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">#3 What protocol state machine cha=
nge triggers &quot;query&quot; action ?</div><div style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">- - -=C2=A0</div><div style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Ad 1 -=C2=A0<=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all">Cool that we have already accomplished consensus to get rid of RD quer=
y. If you do not specify anything the automatic assumptions would be *ANY* =
RD anyway if you query by anything other then NLRI prefix. Query by NLRI is=
 questionable too (see below Ad 3).=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now let&#39;s talk about (in=
)famous EVPN route types you keep bringing as query parameter. Please obser=
ve that RFC7432 does not define BGP capability per route type and only nego=
tiates 25/70 implicitly indicating support of all route types. Moreover RFC=
7432 is very clear that to accomplish filtering of routes on the sender sid=
e use of RTC is recommended.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I think I admitted that getting rid of RD query is reasonable (as =
long we understand that any other query means &quot;any RD&quot;)=C2=A0</di=
v><div><br></div><div>If you think asking for a new route-type in EVPN via =
AFI/SAFI refresh and being swamped with all MAC updates is a reasonable dep=
loyment option then we simply disagree and the operational world will tell =
us what is reasonable.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Ad 2 -=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Assume operator is using RTC so =
list of RT filters is populated by the peer outbound towards querying bgp s=
peaker. Now issuing query for anything needs to be evaluated against alread=
y supported Enhanced Route Refresh (RFC7313) which btw you are also obsolet=
ing here where you get full filtered by RTC list of interesting NLRIs for s=
pecific AFI/SAFI.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif;font-size:small">On the topic of obsoleting RFC2918 I must say =
that I hope this is just a huge oversight ... Your current draft says:=C2=
=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">&quot;When the Route Refresh Options Capability has been negotiate=
d by both</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">sides =
of a BGP session, both peers MUST use message types 3, 4 and 5.&quot;</div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">And message type 3 clearly stat=
es that I must have at least one refresh option ... quote from the field of=
 the msg: &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-fa=
mily:arial,sans-serif">One or more Route Refresh Options&quot;=C2=A0</span>=
</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></sp=
an></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">That=
 means that I no longer can ask for refresh of the entire AFI/SAFI - this i=
s pretty bad.=C2=A0</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Abso=
lutely valid, albeit subtle point. &quot;zero or more route refresh options=
&quot; should be specified.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Obsoleting 70 wh=
en 74 is present is simplifying things. We can keep mixture of 70 and 74 bu=
t implementation will get pretty hairy when you talk details. We talked tha=
t through with Cisco co-authors @ length and actually changed from &quot;yo=
u can do both in parallel&quot; to &quot;nah, 74 obsoleting 70 is much bett=
er/cleaner/easier&quot;.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,san=
s-serif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,=
sans-serif">Ad 3 -=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-fa=
mily:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font=
-family:arial,sans-serif">Now the crux of all of this ...=C2=A0</span></div=
><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color=
:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></=
div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Please enu=
merate on the list or in the draft what exact protocol state machine transi=
tions will result in automated query for subset of given AFI/SAFI with and =
without prior use of RTC and ORF filters.=C2=A0</span></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>section 1.1. in the draft and to be extended</div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">In other words I do n=
ot buy general justifications explained before,=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">quote:=
=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans-se=
rif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial,sans=
-serif">* &quot;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif">now I need the information again&quot;=C2=A0</span><br></div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">* &quot;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">The motivation for this work were scenari=
os where a single-shot refresh is needed, actually concurrent bunch of thos=
e based on configuration changes,=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:=
arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"=
>--&gt; You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh</span></div><span class=3D"=
"><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font=
-family:arial,sans-serif">&quot; in policy changes, joining VPNs, EVIs and =
so on.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></span><div style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:12.8px">--&gt; You need per AFI/SAFI or per RT refresh</sp=
an></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>ok, then as I said, we agre=
e to disagree and then we don&#39;t have currently a really practical solut=
ion to the cases mentioned in 1.1 and yes, RTC can be used for that if you&=
#39;re willing to maintain RTs for all possible sets you may need to refres=
h and the draft very explicitly acknowledges that already. Given you know t=
hose sets upfront. If you deploy EVPN today and new route type gets introdu=
ced (type-6) you better go and reconfigure all your routers in the networks=
 with this type-6-per-EVI=3Da new RT knowledge to satisfy the &quot;I need =
now type-6 routes for the EVIs I configured for multicast&quot; use case. Q=
uite a lot of configuration there since it&#39;s combinatorial with every p=
arameter.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Extending ORF with new filters wil=
l lead due to the accept/reject non-computable language to full walks of wh=
ich you can have one in parallel in ORF and you chose to not answer any of =
the &quot;and then you&#39;ll get flooded on change of ORF filter anyway&qu=
ot; observations which leads overall to an interesting, partial treatment o=
f the subject.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Frankly, the arguments we are=
 engaged in are becoming repetitive by now, we should close this discussion=
 and see whether implementation/acceptance by major vendors given the press=
ure of deployment cases we listed will lead to acceptance or the draft will=
 linger ...=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>--- tony=C2=A0</div></div>
</div></div>

--001a113fe4deb3fa960538683929--


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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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--94eb2c06266a55c34a053868653f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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=E2=80=8BHey Tony,=E2=80=8B


> I think I admitted that getting rid of RD query is reasonable (as long we
> understand that any other query means "any RD")
>

=E2=80=8BDone.

Absolutely valid, albeit subtle point. "zero or more route refresh options"
> should be specified.
>

=E2=80=8BGreat.=E2=80=8B

Obsoleting 70 when 74 is present is simplifying things. We can keep mixture
> of 70 and 74 but implementation will get pretty hairy when you talk
> details. We talked that through with Cisco co-authors @ length and actual=
ly
> changed from "you can do both in parallel" to "nah, 74 obsoleting 70 is
> much better/cleaner/easier".
>

=E2=80=8BYes one
=E2=80=8BSAFI =E2=80=8B
is much cleaner, but you can't break per AFI/SAFI refresh. =E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8BSo now I consider this fixed. =E2=80=8B



> ok, then as I said, we agree to disagree and then we don't have currently
> a really practical solution to the cases mentioned in 1.1 and yes, RTC ca=
n
> be used for that if you're willing to maintain RTs for all possible sets
> you may need to refresh and the draft very explicitly acknowledges that
> already.
>

=E2=80=8BPossible sets .. hmmm how about this to address route types:

1 RT per route type of a given AFI/SAFI ... not much burden at all - for
EVPN you burn 5-6 RTs for entire network. =E2=80=8B


> Given you know those sets upfront. If you deploy EVPN today and new route
> type gets introduced (type-6) you better go and reconfigure all your
> routers in the networks with this type-6-per-EVI=3Da new RT knowledge to
> satisfy the "I need now type-6 routes for the EVIs I configured for
> multicast" use case. Quite a lot of configuration there since it's
> combinatorial with every parameter.
>

=E2=80=8BNot at all .. forgot that RTs can be applied on RR per route type =
of NLRI
on inbound. Your colleagues already defined that in the other work :) =E2=
=80=8B

Minimal configuration, existing protocols and all benefits.

Cheers,
R.

--94eb2c06266a55c34a053868653f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BHey Tony,=E2=80=8B</div></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I think I admitted that getting rid of RD =
query is reasonable (as long we understand that any other query means &quot=
;any RD&quot;)=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BDone.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D""><div>Absolutely valid, a=
lbeit subtle point. &quot;zero or more route refresh options&quot; should b=
e specified.=C2=A0<br></div></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BGreat.=E2=80=8B</div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Obsoleting 70 when 74 is present is simplifying =
things. We can keep mixture of 70 and 74 but implementation will get pretty=
 hairy when you talk details. We talked that through with Cisco co-authors =
@ length and actually changed from &quot;you can do both in parallel&quot; =
to &quot;nah, 74 obsoleting 70 is much better/cleaner/easier&quot;.<br></di=
v></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=E2=80=8BYes one <div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display=
:inline">=E2=80=8BSAFI =E2=80=8B</div>is much cleaner, but you can&#39;t br=
eak per AFI/SAFI refresh. =E2=80=8B<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;display:inline">=E2=80=
=8BSo now I consider this fixed. =E2=80=8B</div></span><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>ok, then as I said, we agree t=
o disagree and then we don&#39;t have currently a really practical solution=
 to the cases mentioned in 1.1 and yes, RTC can be used for that if you&#39=
;re willing to maintain RTs for all possible sets you may need to refresh a=
nd the draft very explicitly acknowledges that already. </div></div></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BPossible =
sets .. hmmm how about this to address route types:=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">1 RT per route type of a given AFI/SA=
FI ... not much burden at all - for EVPN you burn 5-6 RTs for entire networ=
k. =E2=80=8B</div></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v>Given you know those sets upfront. If you deploy EVPN today and new route=
 type gets introduced (type-6) you better go and reconfigure all your route=
rs in the networks with this type-6-per-EVI=3Da new RT knowledge to satisfy=
 the &quot;I need now type-6 routes for the EVIs I configured for multicast=
&quot; use case. Quite a lot of configuration there since it&#39;s combinat=
orial with every parameter.=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BNot at all .. forgot that RTs ca=
n be applied on RR per route type of NLRI on inbound. Your colleagues alrea=
dy defined that in the other work :) =E2=80=8B</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">Minimal configuration, existing protocols and all =
benefits.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers=
,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div=
></div></div>

--94eb2c06266a55c34a053868653f--


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From: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
To: "John G. Scudder" <jgs@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Minutes of IETF-96 IDR posted
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On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 06:11:24PM +0200, John G. Scudder wrote:
> Minutes are now available at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-idr. Please send any corrections or comments to the list. Thanks to those who pitched in to take the notes.

Minor correction:

: Jeff: You are using the wrong handle.  Use the IGPs. Consider going to

wrong hammer.

I also suggest expanding all of the speaker initials in the minutes.

-- Jeff (particular about tools used to beat up stuff)


From nobody Tue Jul 26 08:21:33 2016
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From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:46:46 -0400
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Subject: [Idr] Fwd: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
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Forwarding to addresses that should have been cc'ed below.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.tx=
t
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, "sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com"
<sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com>, "mdurrani@cisco.com"
<mdurrani@cisco.com>, Liyizhou <liyizhou@huawei.com>, John Scudder
<jgs@juniper.net>, "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, Haoweiguo
<haoweiguo@huawei.com>, "trill-chairs@ietf.org"
<trill-chairs@ietf.org>

Hi Ross,

Sorry for the delay in response. Based on discussions with Hao Weiguo,
the plan is to make minor changes in the draft so as to indicate that
the transported MAC reachability information and the like is for
telemetry purposes and for use by SDN controller(s) where the
coordination or protocol between the SDN controllers is out of scope.

Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 8:58 PM, Haoweiguo <haoweiguo@huawei.com> wrote:
> Hi Ross,
>
> Sorry for late response.
>
> Thanks for your great comments. Pls see inline.
>
> weiguo
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ross Callon [rcallon@juniper.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 10:27
> To: Haoweiguo; Donald Eastlake; Susan Hares; sujay.gupta@ipinfusion.com;
> mdurrani@cisco.com; Liyizhou; John Scudder
> Cc: idr@ietf.org; trill@ietf.org; rtg-dir@ietf.org; Ross Callon
> Subject: routing directorate QA review of draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.txt
>
> I have been selected as the QA reviewer for draft-ietf-idr-ls-trill-01.tx=
t.
> For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
> Summary:
>
> I think that this draft is straightforward and well written. I have only =
a
> couple of questions and some very minor nits.
>
> I can see situations in which putting TRILL information into BGP may make
> sense, particularly in the case of providing TRILL information to a SDN
> controller as pointed out in the draft. Due to the close relationship of
> this draft to the work in TRILL I have CC=E2=80=99d the TRILL working gro=
up on this
> review and I assume that the TRILL working group will similarly be inform=
ed
> when the document goes to WGLC.
>
>
> Questions:
>
> Section 1, second to last paragraph states:
>
>    If ESADI (End Station Address Distribution Information) protocol
>    [RFC7357] is used for control plane MAC learning in each data center,
>    BGP LS also can be used for MAC address reachability information
>    synchronization across multiple TRILL domains.  End-to-end unicast
>    forwarding paths can be calculated based on the synchronized
>    information.
>
> Would this be limited to the case where routes are computed by SDN
> controllers? I am thinking that if instead the MAC reachability from one
> data center is passed via BGP and fed back into TRILL in a different data
> center then this would lead to significant issues which have not been
> discussed in this document.
> [weiguo]: Yes, the routes are consumed and computed by SDN controllers is
> the main case. However, i don't know why the MAC reachability passing fro=
m
> one data center and feeding back into another data center will cause
> significant problems, can you explain further about this?
>
> Section 5 (security considerations) states:
>
>    Procedures and protocol extensions defined in this document do not
>    affect the BGP security model.  See [RFC6952] for details.
>
> I am not a TRILL expert and therefore might not fully understand all case=
s
> in which TRILL is used. I am however wondering if there are TRILL-specifi=
c
> issues in that the TRILL information must only be passed to TRILL capable
> devices. I am also wondering whether there is any valid use of =E2=80=9CT=
RILL in
> BGP=E2=80=9D other than passing TRILL information to SDN controllers. Pas=
sing TRILL
> information from one TRILL domain to another TRILL domain and then
> redistributing the information back into normal TRILL packets seems like =
a
> bad idea at first glance. I am wondering if this section should say
> something like =E2=80=9Cthis protocol MUST be used ONLY for passing TRILL
> information from TRILL devices to SDN controllers, and for passing TRILL
> information between SDN controllers.
> [weiguo]: BGP LS provides a mechanism for passing TRILL information from =
one
> domain to another domain, it also can be used for passing TRILL informati=
on
> from TRILL devices to SDN controllers and between SDN controllers. Can yo=
u
> explain further about why BGP LS can't be used for passing TRILL informat=
ion
> from one domain to another domain?
>
> Very minor nits:
>
> Section 2 defines the RFC2119 terms and abbreviations used in this docume=
nt
> in the same section with no subsections. I think that it is more normal t=
o
> have a subsection for RFC 2119 terms and a different subsection for
> abbreviations used in this document.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 3, first paragraph, last sentence: =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast gr=
oup address, and
> etc.=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6multicast group address, etc.=
=E2=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 3.1, =E2=80=9CiS-IS=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9CIS-IS=E2=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
> Section 4, second paragraph, I thought that it was a bit odd for a docume=
nt
> to reference itself, as in =E2=80=9CAn implementation of this
> specification[idr-ls-trill], MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D. Would this be a b=
it less awkward as:
> =E2=80=9CAny implementation of the protocol in this specification (ie tha=
t
> distributes TRILL Link-State information using BGP), MUST do=E2=80=A6=E2=
=80=9D.
> [weiguo]: OK, will change it in next version.
>
> That is all that I found in a couple of readings of this document,
> Thanks, Ross
>


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From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Jakob,

See inline ...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Just reading some of this.
>
> A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply the ORF then remove it"=
.
>
> Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes.
>
> You send an ORF to permit only the subset.
>
> You receive the subset.
>
> Now you remove the ORF.
>
> You receive the whole table.
>
> NOT what you wanted.
>


=E2=80=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix =
it
first.

For Match =3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* advertise=
ment of
previously filtered entries.

For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n
whole table and remaining ORF entries.

=E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF=
 PERMIT
entry). =E2=80=8B




> Also, the use case is good.
>
> The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.
>
> The receiver changed the policy.
>
> Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.
>
> This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.
>
> The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing those routes, so
> changing them is nonsense.
>


=E2=80=8BFor this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get th=
ose
NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.

You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.

If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the
delta.

If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will
get you the delta.

So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one
time refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of
parameters used to perform a query ?


Best,
R.

--001a114a6beaecb3380538c16f87
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Jakob,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">See inline ...=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Hei=
tz (jheitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">jheitz@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Just reading some of this.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as=
 &quot;Apply the ORF then remove it&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Suppose you want to refresh a subset of th=
e routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You send an ORF to permit only the subset.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the subset.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now you remove the ORF.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the whole table.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">NOT what you wanted.</span></p></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=
=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix it fir=
st.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">For Match =
=3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* advertisement of pr=
eviously filtered entries.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the d=
elta between whole table and remaining ORF entries.=C2=A0</div></div><div><=
br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole tabl=
e (other then removal of last ORF PERMIT entry). =E2=80=8B</div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Lucida Console&quot;;color=
:#7030a0"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(112,48,160);font-family:&qu=
ot;Lucida Console&quot;;font-size:8pt">Also, the use case is good.</span><b=
r></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver dropped some routes due to po=
licy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver changed the policy.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now it wants a repeat of the previously dr=
opped routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The thing is that ORF or RTC were already =
passing those routes, so changing them is nonsense.</span></p></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8B=
For this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get those NLRIs=
 which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">You have to be able to handle i=
t anyway as when you boot you will get.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removi=
ng it will get you the delta.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF=
 or RTC will get you the delta.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small">So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for t=
his scoped one time refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be th=
e list of parameters used to perform a query ?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a114a6beaecb3380538c16f87--


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From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:12:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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--_000_F8A1EED64A40408A99EF46E7F0984B49ciscocom_
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Wrong. RFC 5291 says:

The speaker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.

Thanks,
Jakob.


On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net>> wrote:

Hi Jakob,

See inline ...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mai=
lto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote:
Just reading some of this.
A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply the ORF then remove it".
Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes.
You send an ORF to permit only the subset.
You receive the subset.
Now you remove the ORF.
You receive the whole table.
NOT what you wanted.


?If this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix it first=
.

For Match =3D DENY ?REMOVE action should result in *only* advertisement of =
previously filtered entries.

For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.

?In no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF PERMIT =
entry). ?



Also, the use case is good.
The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.
The receiver changed the policy.
Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.
This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.
The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing those routes, so changing=
 them is nonsense.


?For this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get those NLRI=
s which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.

You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.

If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.

If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.

So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?


Best,
R.






--_000_F8A1EED64A40408A99EF46E7F0984B49ciscocom_
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<div>Wrong. RFC 5291 says:</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-b=
reak-before: always;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleTallBody"><span style=
=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The spe=
aker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.</span></font></pre>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<div>Jakob.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@ra=
szuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jakob,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
See inline ...&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jh=
eitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jheitz@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Just reading some of this.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as=
 &quot;Apply the ORF then remove it&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Suppose you want to refresh a subset of th=
e routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You send an ORF to permit only the subset.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the subset.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now you remove the ORF.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the whole table.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">NOT what you wanted.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;If this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix it=
 first.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D DENY &#8203;REMOVE action should result in *only* advertiseme=
nt of previously filtered entries.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;In no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF P=
ERMIT entry). &#8203;</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(112,48,160);font-family:&qu=
ot;Lucida Console&quot;;font-size:8pt">Also, the use case is good.</span><b=
r>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver dropped some routes due to po=
licy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver changed the policy.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now it wants a repeat of the previously dr=
opped routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The thing is that ORF or RTC were already =
passing those routes, so changing them is nonsense.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;For this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get thos=
e NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.&nbsp;</d=
iv>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.</div=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:37:25 +0000
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And to clarify, that means all routes permitted after the ORF message is pr=
ocessed MUST be re-advertised. It doesn't matter whether the action was add=
 or remove.

Also, when you remove the last permit, you get nothing. It's like after ses=
sion establishment: if the ORF capability was negotiated, nothing is sent u=
ntil the first permit is received.

Thanks,
Jakob.


On Jul 29, 2016, at 3:12 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mailto:=
jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote:

Wrong. RFC 5291 says:

The speaker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.

Thanks,
Jakob.


On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net>> wrote:

Hi Jakob,

See inline ...

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com<mai=
lto:jheitz@cisco.com>> wrote:
Just reading some of this.
A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply the ORF then remove it".
Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes.
You send an ORF to permit only the subset.
You receive the subset.
Now you remove the ORF.
You receive the whole table.
NOT what you wanted.


?If this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix it first=
.

For Match =3D DENY ?REMOVE action should result in *only* advertisement of =
previously filtered entries.

For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.

?In no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF PERMIT =
entry). ?



Also, the use case is good.
The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.
The receiver changed the policy.
Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.
This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.
The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing those routes, so changing=
 them is nonsense.


?For this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get those NLRI=
s which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.

You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.

If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.

If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.

So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?


Best,
R.






--_000_0598FA6B280B44488A952AD85C562DF4ciscocom_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body dir=3D"auto">
<div>And to clarify, that means all routes permitted after the ORF message =
is processed MUST be re-advertised. It doesn't matter whether the action wa=
s add or remove.</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Also, when you remove the last permit, you g=
et nothing. It's like after session establishment: if the ORF capability wa=
s negotiated, nothing is sent until the first permit is received.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<div>Jakob.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jul 29, 2016, at 3:12 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jhe=
itz@cisco.com">jheitz@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>Wrong. RFC 5291 says:</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-b=
reak-before: always;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleTallBody"><span style=
=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The spe=
aker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.</span></font></pre>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<div>Jakob.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@ra=
szuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jakob,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
See inline ...&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jh=
eitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jheitz@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Just reading some of this.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as=
 &quot;Apply the ORF then remove it&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Suppose you want to refresh a subset of th=
e routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You send an ORF to permit only the subset.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the subset.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now you remove the ORF.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the whole table.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">NOT what you wanted.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;If this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix it=
 first.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D DENY &#8203;REMOVE action should result in *only* advertiseme=
nt of previously filtered entries.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;In no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF P=
ERMIT entry). &#8203;</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(112,48,160);font-family:&qu=
ot;Lucida Console&quot;;font-size:8pt">Also, the use case is good.</span><b=
r>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver dropped some routes due to po=
licy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver changed the policy.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now it wants a repeat of the previously dr=
opped routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The thing is that ORF or RTC were already =
passing those routes, so changing them is nonsense.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
&#8203;For this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get thos=
e NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.&nbsp;</d=
iv>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.</div=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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--001a11403bd8bc62970538c494cc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Jakob,

I did not make any judgement who is right and who is wrong. You did so let
me explain where you are missing it.

#1 - As someone wisely said at the last IETF MAY =3D MAY NOT hence if spec
contains MAY it equally well could be interpreted in the opposite way.
Enough to say this is not a base to make any right or wrong judgement.

#2 - This entire thread as well as this draft in question is all about
optimization. I must repeat that there is no problem in the first place so
receiving all routes in a given SAFI modulo ORF or RTC filter is just fine.
During policy change you issue Enhanced Route Refresh.

However If this is not fine then I recommend to fix those inefficient
implementations which are generating excess of messages in the BGP UPDATE
rather then putting another layer of questionable band-aid on top of it.

Thx,
R.

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Wrong. RFC 5291 says:
>
> The speaker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
>    affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
>    advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
>    carried in the message.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Jakob.
>
>
> On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Jakob,
>
> See inline ...
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just reading some of this.
>>
>> A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply the ORF then remove it=
".
>>
>> Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes.
>>
>> You send an ORF to permit only the subset.
>>
>> You receive the subset.
>>
>> Now you remove the ORF.
>>
>> You receive the whole table.
>>
>> NOT what you wanted.
>>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fi=
x it
> first.
>
> For Match =3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* adverti=
sement of
> previously filtered entries.
>
> For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betw=
een
> whole table and remaining ORF entries.
>
> =E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last O=
RF PERMIT
> entry). =E2=80=8B
>
>
>
>
>> Also, the use case is good.
>>
>> The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.
>>
>> The receiver changed the policy.
>>
>> Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.
>>
>> This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.
>>
>> The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing those routes, so
>> changing them is nonsense.
>>
>
>
> =E2=80=8BFor this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get =
those
> NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.
>
> You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.
>
> If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the
> delta.
>
> If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will
> get you the delta.
>
> So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one
> time refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of
> parameters used to perform a query ?
>
>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--001a11403bd8bc62970538c494cc
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Jakob,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">I did not make any judgement who is right and who is w=
rong. You did so let me explain where you are missing it.=C2=A0</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">#1 - As someone wisely said at th=
e last IETF MAY =3D MAY NOT hence if spec contains MAY it equally well coul=
d be interpreted in the opposite way. Enough to say this is not a base to m=
ake any right or wrong judgement.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">#2 - This entire thread as well as this draft in question=
 is all about optimization. I must repeat that there is no problem in the f=
irst place so receiving all routes in a given SAFI modulo ORF or RTC filter=
 is just fine. During policy change you issue Enhanced Route Refresh.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">However If this is not fine=
 then I recommend to fix those inefficient implementations which are genera=
ting excess of messages in the BGP UPDATE rather then putting another layer=
 of questionable band-aid on top of it.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1=
2:12 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jheit=
z@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jheitz@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>Wrong. RFC 5291 says:</div>
<div><span class=3D"">
<pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextS=
tyleTallBody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,2=
55,255,0)">The speaker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.</span></font></pre>
<br></span>
Thanks,<br>
<div>Jakob.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@ra=
szuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Jakob,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
See inline ...=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jh=
eitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jheitz@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Just reading some of this.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as=
 &quot;Apply the ORF then remove it&quot;.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Suppose you want to refresh a subset of th=
e routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You send an ORF to permit only the subset.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the subset.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now you remove the ORF.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">You receive the whole table.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">NOT what you wanted.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
=E2=80=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix =
it first.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* advertise=
ment of previously filtered entries.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
=E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF=
 PERMIT entry). =E2=80=8B</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(112,48,160);font-family:&qu=
ot;Lucida Console&quot;;font-size:8pt">Also, the use case is good.</span><b=
r>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver dropped some routes due to po=
licy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The receiver changed the policy.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">Now it wants a repeat of the previously dr=
opped routes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Luc=
ida Console&quot;;color:#7030a0">The thing is that ORF or RTC were already =
passing those routes, so changing them is nonsense.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
=E2=80=8BFor this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get th=
ose NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.</div=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Best,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11403bd8bc62970538c494cc--


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From: Niloofar Fazlollahi <niloofar_fazlollahi@yahoo.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" <jheitz@cisco.com>
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Cc: "Keyur Patel \(keyupate\)" <keyupate@cisco.com>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fwd: Slot request in IDR to present https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-idr-bgp-route-refresh-options-00.txt
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Hi Robert,In response to your comment:"If you pushed your prefix list with =
ORF then removing it will get you the delta.=C2=A0
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.=C2=A0
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ? "
There is also the case that policy is enforced locally, nor ORF and neither=
 RTC, e.g., route-map in with deny prefix-list.
Once the policy is removed, with cap 74, speaker can request refresh of onl=
y the previously denied prefixes.How to implement this optimization with OR=
F?=C2=A0
Based on your previous email:"For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should res=
ult in *only* the delta between whole table and remaining ORF entries. "

If we send a PERMIT ADD for those prefixes and then PERMIT REMOVE, we will =
be refreshed with the whole AFI/SAFI assuming no other ORF is added previou=
sly.

Regards,Niloofar
=20

    On Friday, July 29, 2016 4:30 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wro=
te:
=20

 Jakob,
I did not make any judgement who is right and who is wrong. You did so let =
me explain where you are missing it.=C2=A0
#1 - As someone wisely said at the last IETF MAY =3D MAY NOT hence if spec =
contains MAY it equally well could be interpreted in the opposite way. Enou=
gh to say this is not a base to make any right or wrong judgement.=C2=A0
#2 - This entire thread as well as this draft in question is all about opti=
mization. I must repeat that there is no problem in the first place so rece=
iving all routes in a given SAFI modulo ORF or RTC filter is just fine. Dur=
ing policy change you issue Enhanced Route Refresh.
However If this is not fine then I recommend to fix those inefficient imple=
mentations which are generating excess of messages in the BGP UPDATE rather=
 then putting another layer of questionable band-aid on top of it.=C2=A0
Thx,R.
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com> w=
rote:

Wrong. RFC 5291 says:The speaker MUST re-advertise all the routes that have=
 been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.
Thanks,
Jakob.

On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:


Hi Jakob,
See inline ...=C2=A0
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com> wr=
ote:

Just reading some of this.A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply=
 the ORF then remove it".Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes=
.You send an ORF to permit only the subset.You receive the subset.Now you r=
emove the ORF.You receive the whole table.NOT what you wanted.


=E2=80=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix =
it first.=C2=A0
For Match =3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* advertise=
ment of previously filtered entries.=C2=A0
For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.=C2=A0
=E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF=
 PERMIT entry). =E2=80=8B

=C2=A0

Also, the use case is good.
The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.The receiver changed the pol=
icy.Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.This is not a us=
e case for ORF or RTC.The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing tho=
se routes, so changing them is nonsense.


=E2=80=8BFor this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get th=
ose NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.=C2=A0
You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.
If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.=C2=A0
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.=C2=A0
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?=C2=A0

Best,R.








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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, =
sans-serif;font-size:18px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_36943=
"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37524">Hi Robert,</span></div=
><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_36943"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_y=
m19_1_1469982898423_37506">In response to your comment:</span></div><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_36943"><span>"</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0=
_ym19_1_1469982898423_37588">If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then r=
emoving it will get you the delta.&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19=
_1_1469982898423_37521"><br clear=3D"none" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14699828=
98423_37522"></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;=
 font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523=
">If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will=
 get you the delta.&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica,=
 sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982=
898423_37523"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_=
37523">So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scope=
d one time refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of=
 parameters used to perform a query ? "</div><div style=3D"font-family: ari=
al, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, hel=
vetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_=
1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica =
Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;" id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37619">There is also the case that poli=
cy is enforced locally, nor ORF and neither RTC, e.g., route-map in with de=
ny prefix-list.</span><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_146998=
2898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue',=
 Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;" id=3D"yui=
_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37825">Once the policy is removed, with cap 74=
, speaker can request refresh of only the previously denied prefixes.</span=
></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucid=
a Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898=
423_38067">How to implement this optimization with ORF?&nbsp;</span></div><=
div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" =
dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande=
', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family=
: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue,=
 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size=
: 18px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_38182">Based on your previou=
s email:</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_375=
23"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,=
 Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym1=
9_1_1469982898423_38183">"</span>For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should =
result in *only* the delta between whole table and remaining ORF entries. "=
<br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_38285"></div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"y=
ui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: =
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, '=
Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: =
18px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_38294">If we send a PERMIT ADD=
 for those prefixes and then PERMIT REMOVE, we will be refreshed with the w=
hole AFI/SAFI assuming no other ORF is added previously.</span><br id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_38405"></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial=
, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym=
19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helve=
tica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;=
"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;=
 font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_37523=
"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, A=
rial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_=
1_1469982898423_38584">Regards,</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: aria=
l, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_y=
m19_1_1469982898423_37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helv=
etica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px=
;">Niloofar</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1469982898423_=
37523"><span style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helveti=
ca, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 18px;"><br></span></div>=
 <div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" sty=
le=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica=
 Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 18px;"> <div=
 style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Luc=
ida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Arial"> On Friday, July 29, 2016 4:30 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;rober=
t@raszuk.net&gt; wrote:<br></font></div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_msg_cont=
ainer"><div id=3D"yiv3204492088"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv32044920=
88gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;">Jakob,</div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;">I did not make any judgement who is right and wh=
o is wrong. You did so let me explain where you are missing it.&nbsp;</div>=
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br></div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll;">#1 - As someone wisely said at the last IETF MAY =3D MAY NOT hence if =
spec contains MAY it equally well could be interpreted in the opposite way.=
 Enough to say this is not a base to make any right or wrong judgement.&nbs=
p;</div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br></div><div class=3D"yiv32044=
92088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-=
size:small;">#2 - This entire thread as well as this draft in question is a=
ll about optimization. I must repeat that there is no problem in the first =
place so receiving all routes in a given SAFI modulo ORF or RTC filter is j=
ust fine. During policy change you issue Enhanced Route Refresh.</div><div =
class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica,=
 sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br></div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">=
However If this is not fine then I recommend to fix those inefficient imple=
mentations which are generating excess of messages in the BGP UPDATE rather=
 then putting another layer of questionable band-aid on top of it.&nbsp;</d=
iv><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, he=
lvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;"><br></div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:=
small;">Thx,</div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">R.</div></div><div cla=
ss=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_quote"=
>On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com">jheitz@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">



<div>
<div>Wrong. RFC 5291 says:</div>
<div><span class=3D"yiv3204492088">
<pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;"><font face=3D"UICTFontText=
StyleTallBody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;">The speaker MUST re-adve=
rtise all the routes that have been
   affected by the ORF entries carried in the message, but MAY also re-
   advertise the routes that have not been affected by the ORF entries
   carried in the message.</span></font></pre>
<br></span>
Thanks,<br>
<div>Jakob.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"yiv3204492088h5">
<div><br>
On Jul 29, 2016, at 12:45 AM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:robert@raszu=
k.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
Hi Jakob,</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
See inline ...&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:18 AM, Ja=
kob Heitz (jheitz) <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k" href=3D"mailto:jheitz@cisco.com">jheitz@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">Just reading some of this.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">A limited refresh is NOT the same thing as "Apply the ORF then re=
move it".<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">Suppose you want to refresh a subset of the routes.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">You send an ORF to permit only the subset.<u></u><u></u></span></=
div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">You receive the subset.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">Now you remove the ORF.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">You receive the whole table.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">NOT what you wanted.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
=E2=80=8BIf this is what your implementation does then I recommend you fix =
it first.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
For Match =3D DENY =E2=80=8BREMOVE action should result in *only* advertise=
ment of previously filtered entries.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
For Match =3D PERMIT REMOVE action should result in *only* the delta betwee=
n whole table and remaining ORF entries.&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
=E2=80=8BIn no case you get the whole table (other then removal of last ORF=
 PERMIT entry). =E2=80=8B</div>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(112,48,160);=
font-size:8pt;">Also, the use case is good.</span><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">The receiver dropped some routes due to policy.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">The receiver changed the policy.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">Now it wants a repeat of the previously dropped routes.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">This is not a use case for ORF or RTC.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;color:=
#7030a0;">The thing is that ORF or RTC were already passing those routes, s=
o changing them is nonsense.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
=E2=80=8BFor this case you use Enhanced Route Refresh. As result you get th=
ose NLRIs which pass ORF or RTC the filters on a per AFI/SAFI basis.&nbsp;<=
/div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
You have to be able to handle it anyway as when you boot you will get.</div=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
If you pushed your prefix list with ORF then removing it will get you the d=
elta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
If you filtered based on import RT then advertising RT in ORF or RTC will g=
et you the delta.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
So in what exact protocol cases you envision use case for this scoped one t=
ime refresh ? And what exactly in your opinion should be the list of parame=
ters used to perform a query ?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
Best,</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
R.</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"yiv3204492088gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif;font-size:small;">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>____________________________________=
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